Drone Case Update
Pennsylvania
“Siddons Defends Pennsylvania Drone Pilot in Case of First Impression”
BY MICHAEL A. SIDDONS, ESQUIRE ____________________ For Immediate Release Defendant, Joshua Wingenroth, was charged with multiple violations under the Pennsylvania Game and Wildlife Code for using a drone to assist in the recovery of a white-tailed deer that a hunter claimed he shot but could not find. However, that hunter turned out to be an undercover Pennsylvania Game Warden. The undercover officer lured the Defendant from Chester County to Lancaster County as part of an undercover “buy-bust” operation specifically to catch the Defendant using a drone. The Pennsylvania Game Commission claims that using a drone to aid in the recovery of downed game is illegal. A summary trial was held before Lancaster County District Justice Scheller on February 22, 2024. The Defendant was represented by Attorney Siddons and the Commonwealth’s case was prosecuted by the Lancaster County District Attorney’s office. Multiple uniformed (field and supervisory personnel) along with Game Commission executive staff were present for the hearing. The Defendant was found guilty on all citations issued by the Commonwealth. Given the magnitude of this case (it is a case of first impression), this outcome was expected. As a result, the Defendant is appealing this decision to the Court of Common Pleas for a trial de novo. At the summary hearing, the drone issue was quickly over-shadowed by the “bombshell” testimony from two of the Commonwealth’s witnesses- which if truly the official positions of the Pennsylvania Game Commission- could have profound and draconian consequences for the hunting public as it pertains to the recovery of downed game generally- whether or not the use of a drone is involved. Both the arresting officer and the undercover officer-both game wardens for over 30 years each-testified that it is illegal to recover downed game at night without a weapon. Neither officer was able to recall ever issuing a citation to a hunter for trying to recover downed game at night in their entire careers or could point to a single section of the Pennsylvania Game and Wildlife Code or Game Commission policy to support this position. Ironically, despite this position, both officers testified that they had accompanied many hunters at night to assist in the recovery of down game. This position is against all known conventional understanding of the hunting public, the requirements under the Game and Wildlife Code regarding a hunter’s legal obligations to use all best efforts to recover downed game animals and against prior on-the-record statements made by Executive Director Bryan J. Burhans. It would appear that from the top down the PGC doesn’t have a uniform position on the difference between “hunting” and “recovery” of game animals. Whether a person is using a drone or not. The drone case aside, these statements have further confounded this situation. Having such an inconsistent and ambiguous position with respect to the enforcement of the Game and Wildlife Code should give every hunter who is faced with recovering downed game at night grave concern. As a side note-Judge Scheller stated from the bench that he agrees with both the PGC and the Defendant that the Legislature to needs to address this issue.” At present Pennsylvania Senator Coleman is sponsoring legislation to amend the Game and Wildlife Code to address this issue. Interested parties should contact their state legislator to urge them to join with Senator Coleman on this important issue. Inquiries may be sent to [email protected] or (610) 255-7500. Legal Disclosure: The information contained herein, is not intended to – and does not – create an attorney-client relationship. This article is not intended to provide legal advice, and readers should refrain from acting on information contained herein without seeking specific legal advice from individually qualified counsel.
I'd like to see what Sen. Coleman's bill says before urging anyone to join. What is the bill number?
Also, here is an article with more information. It appears the drone operator was charged with shining a light but the article mentions only thermal imaging.
Guilty, good. Now onto the summary of how they use them in the future. It needs to be banned, until they figure out the privacy aspects and the private property aspect from the air. Until them, keep them banned.
Senate of Pennsylvania Session of 2023 - 2024 Regular Session MEMORANDUM Posted: January 2, 2024 12:20 PM From: Senator Jarrett Coleman To: All Senate members Subject: The use of drones in recovering downed game One of the many challenges facing Pennsylvanian hunters is the tracking and recovery of downed game. The advancement of unmanned drones has created an opportunity to use technology to aid in that recovery process. The state of Ohio permits the use of drones in the recovery of downed game. Unfortunately, the Pennsylvania Game Commission appears to be taking a hostile view of the use of drones in game recovery.
In December of 2023, the Game Commission charged a Pennsylvania resident with two counts of unlawful devices and methods and one count each of disturbance of game and wildlife and restrictions on recreational spotlighting. The charges combined carry a maximum of $2,500 in fines and up to three months in jail. These charges stem from the use of a drone to attempt to recover a downed deer.
Pennsylvanians deserve better. With the advent of drones, hunters have an additional tool to use and reduce the amount of dead game that goes uncollected. Therefore, I plan on co-sponsoring vital legislation to make use of electronic aids like drones lawful for game recovery. I hope that you will join me in sponsoring this important legislation.
Read the full article. This is no longer about just drones. Rather its about bloodtrailing at night!
That part about two PGC officers testifying it's illegal to recover game at night makes no sense. The fact that there is no law about it makes no sense. And yet, nobody has been cited for it? They definitely do need to get that part in law.
That is the whole reason our firm took this case. Whether you are for or against drones, bloodtrailing at night, or whether there is a distinction between "hunting" and "recovery", the Game and Wildlife Code is ambiguous on these issues. The Code needs to be clear and unambiguous so that every hunter knows what IS and IS NOT legal.
That the most ridiculous statement by Game com. That it's illegal to try and recover a deer you know is wounded or dead its been done many times as long as you don't have a,weapon with you. A drone is no different then using tracking dogs or bunch of guys with flashlights. Time to catch up with the times. It's already being done all over the state.
Every means possible should be legal to find a downed animal. Drones ?? help and this is absolutely a case of a few wardens trying to make a example out of someone while they admit to breaking the law. Come one wardens...do better.
Wow, the PGC has outdone themselves yet again. Instead of admitting they were wrong, they double down and say no one can recover after dark? I’m all for restrictions being in place to prevent abuse with drones, but this approach by the PGC is unbelievable. How are they planning to field all those “recovery after hours” calls during season?
Seems like they’re so eager to maintain that recovery is a hunting act, and they went off the deep end with this argument. I guess if a hunter shoots a deer and never recovers it, the hunt never ends. Based on PGC’s logic, would you still be hunting in 2024 on a 2018 license/tag for a deer you weren’t able to recover in 2018?
The PGC has always selectively enforced game laws and regs and that is why this case has received so much scrutiny and has potentially opened up a can of worms fir both the PGC and hunters. Take laser rangefinders as an example. Just about everybody uses them, yet they were illegal until just a few years ago. Under our current laws and regs, it is illegal to track an animal outside of legal shooting hours, even without a weapon. LED flashlights are also illegal as they are not a permitted electronic device, yet many use them and the PGC does not enforce the use of them. So, tracking outside of legal hours with a LED flashlight is "hunting" outside of a legal season with an illegal device. Both significant offenses, yet rarely enforced as such. By the PGC saying no one can recover after hours, they are correct, yet they don't enforce it that way.
This is the langauge in the laws and regs as it pertain to tracking, which is considered "hunting" in this state.
§ 102. Definitions.
Subject to additional definitions contained in subsequent provisions of this title which are applicable to specific provisions of this title, the following words and phrases when used in this title shall have the meanings given to them in this section unless the context clearly indicates otherwise:
"Hunt" or "hunting." Any act or furtherance of the taking or killing of any game or wildlife, or any part or product thereof, and includes, but is not limited to, chasing, tracking, calling, pursuing, lying in wait, trapping, shooting at, including shooting at a game or wildlife facsimile, or wounding with any weapon or implement, or using any personal property, including dogs, or the property of others, of any nature, in furtherance of any of these purposes, or aiding, abetting or conspiring with another person in that purpose.
I hope the PGC loses this case. It will force them to make a clear & concise difference between the hunting of game & the recovery of game.
Someone also noted they had a problem with t the lack of privacy. It's very possible you may not have any expectation of privacy. It very well may fall under the "Plain View Doctrine."
"Plain view", Uh-huh. 500' up, under the "guise " of looking for lost game, they survey your property, lands, home, pools, fields, stands and oh btw 500' up do not know where property lines are? Yeah, okay. "Dig, don't tell", best way of handling this.
I can see the spinning this will create. Why is the name not changed to "drone big bucks recovery. "?. This will turn ugly quickly. I am all for game recovery, until they protect property and privacy rights by the users, I will never be on board with this type of thing.
5C, go on google earth and see how much privacy you have when it comes to property lines, pools etc. You can also find all of that info on the tax assessment page at the county level. If someone really wants to "spy" on you, they will. As for the main issue, I kind of feel that any "found" deer is better than finding a deadhead in the spring. Will they mostly be big bucks? Sure, but at least they will be found. I don't think the drone operator has ulterior motives to look in your window. His business, or drone, would not last long. I do agree with Bob though that this will force the issue one way or the other although again, watch what you ask for!!
Griz, I agree with you, however my point is, they will use this as a ruse for looking for downed game to trespass with those on your property and violate your privacy. Especially private property. And we do have those issues already down here with them in our neighborhoods, looking in windows and pools and violations of privacy. Won't be long till they are interrupting your hunt on private property "looking for game". Or since they can now carry a payload, dropping bait on your private an reporting it, sed how the spin works. As I said before, I've never said we should not find game (big bucks ) but to what extent?
5C, have you had a part 107 pilot out to look for downed game? The same could be said for tracking dogs. Oh guys are going to run a tracking dog on a neighbor property and mess my hunting up. A drone in this capacity is far less invasive in my opinion. Many Law Enforcement agencies, including the PGC, are currently using drones in a law enforcement capacity. Are you worried about privacy from those law enforcement agencies or are you giving them a blind pass?
Bowhunting 5C, any licensed 107 pilot knows that they can’t use their drone to “spy” on individuals. It could cost the individual their license. The drones that are being used for deer recovery are around 10k+. Losing their license would cost them more than it’s worth. If there are individuals flying around you feel free to report these incidents to the FAA. Matthew22, you are spot on with all your comments! Well said!
As of for right now I have no opinion on drone's, as I know little about them. I will say that I've seen about a dozen flying over the last few years. I don't believe I've seen one being used for hunting. I few years back if I remember correctly I posted here on bowsite about seeing a pickup truck and Game Commission truck parked next to each other. About 50yds down the road a wco was stand with a guy on a field edge/road. The guy not wearing a uniform was running a drone. Were they together, I don't know. If it was not for the buzz I would not of known what was going on.
The pgc used as law enforcement tools versus the "DEER DRONE" guys no comparison. The possibilities for misuse are endless, viciousness or not. And until they come to grips with the privacy issues and virtual trespassing, ill stay on the side of dig, don't tell. Defend them all you want, what they were doing is illegal, and should be as such until clarification of this is made clear. To land owners and hunters alike.
5C, I respect your opinion but at the same time if you ever recovered a deer after hunting hour’s concluded, your actions would also be illegal (based on PGCs argued position as presented). Blind trust in LE when they appear to be intentionally skewing existing law to fit their narrative is just as dangerous.
Matthews22, you sound like you have a vested interest in this outcome. However, I think you are stretching the view a tad. Retrieval of game after hours is nothing new, neither is K9 Retrieval. However, until clarification of this device use is made available, it is still illegal in pa. Your pitting the PGC as the villan here, and the user got caught when he knew it was wrong and is now crying foul. How is this different when he knew it was illegal?
I do believe that what the fellow did is illegal under our existing regs, but there has to be uniform enforcement. For the PGC to make the claim that retrieving game or looking for game after legal shooting is illegal as a basis in this case, then they better be able to show and prove why 5 guys looking for a downed buck at midnight is somehow different as it relates to the actual language in our laws and regs. They opened up a big can of worms here.
Much like the bird lady case some years ago that got the PGC in trouble, some discretion in this case may have been the best approach while they work on a solution, especially when they know the language and how it is currently enforced is an issue.
I am struggling with the definition of what he did he KNEW was illegal and the spin you guys are trying to put on the PGC? Illegal, he said it, he knew it but gave it a shot anyway, now is crying that he got in trouble?
Sorry officer, I knew that what I was doing is illegal, but some WCO's turned a blind eye defense is weak. I hope you guys never have to deal with this happening to you having a legal hunt ruined, or dealing with trespassing drones on your property. The worm will turn on a dime
Some people are willing to take a hit for something they feel is unjust and challenge it. He is taking that hit and is challenging it. Like I said, what he did is illegal but it is the inconsistent and discretionary enforcement of the laws that seems to be the basis of his challenge. But I respect those that stand up for what they believe. Time will tell how it plays out. In the meantime, the PGC has a lot of figuring out to do.........
5C, I must have missed it. Where did the operator say he knew it was illegal? It's known at this point that many other drone operators are recovering deer in PA. Some of which have come out publicly that they received support from their local wardens.
Seems like you are missing the point of the original post: "Both the arresting officer and the undercover officer-both game wardens for over 30 years each-testified that it is illegal to recover downed game at night without a weapon."
The fact that they claim this is concerning. Obviously they aren't enforcing it because I assume most experienced hunters have had to recover after shooting hours before. How can they pick/choose when to apply?
5C, I must have missed it. Where did the operator say he knew it was illegal? It's known at this point that many other drone operators are recovering deer in PA. Some of which have come out publicly that they received support from their local wardens.
Seems like you are missing the point of the original post: "Both the arresting officer and the undercover officer-both game wardens for over 30 years each-testified that it is illegal to recover downed game at night without a weapon."
The fact that they claim this is concerning. Obviously they aren't enforcing it because I assume most experienced hunters have had to recover after shooting hours before. How can they pick/choose when to apply?
Making drones legal for big game recovery only, is no cause for concern. Almost every piece of equipment a hunter legally takes into the field can be used illegally...most aren't.
I didn't read everyone's post. So I may of missed the answer to my question.
So let me understand this correctly. You can't be out at night trying to recover game unless you have a weapon. But you can't shoot it at night if you come apon it??
That’s how at least two PGC officers see it. It’s a royal Catch-22.
I bet most hunters would believe it’s OK to recover game at night but leave the weapons at home.
"So let me understand this correctly. You can't be out at night trying to recover game unless you have a weapon. But you can't shoot it at night if you come apon it??"
I believe you are misunderstanding what the wardens said. Basically, it is illegal to track and/or recover game outside of legal hunting hours with or without a weapon. That is considered "hunting" under the language and hunting outside of legal hours is illegal. Some might assume that it would be legal without a weapon, but there is no language that differentiates between with or without a weapon. It is illegal to track/and or recover outside of legal hours. They did say it was illegal without a weapon, but that should not be taken to mean that is legal with a weapon.
Phil, I never retrieved a deer at night while carrying anything but a knife & a rope. There's no way a WCO doesn't jam a hunter up if they catch someone coming out of the the woods at night with a dead big-game animal while carrying a gun or a bow.
"I bet most hunters would believe it’s OK to recover game at night but leave the weapons at home."
Most hunters believe that and that is pretty how the PGC enforces it, but advises hunters to contact the office to make them aware since it is illegal under the laws and regs. However, since the PGC chose to make tracking and recovery outside of legal hours a big part of their case against this guy, they now have opened their mouth and inserted their foot into it.
Here is a little snippet from the drone folks about the recent case.
Again, flying at 500' up, can the operator clearly identify property boundaries and while recording guarantee privacy from the intrusion of viewing private property from the air? And while doing so at night? I'll wait.
"Pennsylvania Regulations According to Pennsylvania legislation, drones are considered an unmanned aircraft. 18 Pa. Stat. and Consol. Stat. Ann. § 3505. The statute states that an unlawful offense occurs when someone uses an unmanned aircraft or drone intentionally or knowingly to:
Conduct surveillance of another person in a private place; Operate in a manner that places another person in reasonable fear of bodily injury; or Deliver, provide, transmit or furnish contraband. While a violation of the first two offenses is punishable by a fine of up to $300, a violation of the third provision is more severe and can be charged as a second-degree felony. This harsher punishment is because of its connection to the distribution of contraband. The law does provide exceptions for law enforcement officers, firefighters, emergency medical responders, government employees, and utilities.
Not only does the law create built-in exceptions for those mentioned above, it also states that the rules supersede any ordinance, resolution, rule or regulation from a municipality. Finally, the Pennsylvania statute establishes additional scenarios where a recreational drone user could be liable."
"Criminal Trespass? While the case law surrounding drone usage is still evolving, it does seem that the issue of criminal trespassing is more settled. In Commonwealth v. Namack, the court noted that in Pennsylvania, in order for someone to be criminally liable for trespass, they need to possess intent. The court reasoned that the prosecution must prove that the defendant:
Entered or remained on property without the right to do so; Entered or remained on property despite knowing that they did not have the right to do so; or Received direct or indirect notice that they are not allowed to trespass. These considerations, coupled with the fact that a citizen only owns the airspace above their property as far as is necessary to enjoy the use of their land without annoyance, mean that simply flying a drone over someone’s property does not in itself constitute a criminal trespass."
https://lynchlaw-group.com/navigating-the-law-for-pennsylvania-drone-users/
Where the hell does the sprit of the law come in? I now have no clue if you can or can not track a deer after hours and can I use a LED flash light? Some laws are very vague or are they left that way. For example they over the last few days saw 20 guys walk out of the woods with led flash lights and they do nothing, then they think you may be a law breaker and they see you walk out of the woods led flash light . That gives them the right to detain, question and search you?
PGC is so far behind the times its concerning to say the least. I used a drone company to find my deer this year after a gut shot. Drone showed up 12 hours after I hit the deer, found the deer in 1 minute of searching. Couldn't believe it was still alive. Drone company was nice enough to come back the next morning just to ensure the deer was dead. Found it again in 1 minute of searching, it was dead now. The deer moved overnight but was still easy for the drone to find. Pinned the location on google maps and walked right up to it. No blood, no excess searching or disturbing game. Snuck in and out. The drone fly's anywhere from 400-500 feet in the air. You can't see or hear the thing. We hovered over my deer for a while and never spooked it or any other deer close by. If your concern is about privacy its a little too late. Anyone on the net can look at an aerial map on google and see your house and even a street view. If you're a hunter and want to do your best to find a dead or wounded deer there is no better way than this. If I ever find myself in a pickle again I will not hesitate to call them back. I want peace of mind that the animal I was pursuing is dead or alive.
"That gives them the right to detain, question and search you?"
Wardens have a bit more authority than a typical law enforcement officer because hunting is a highly regulated activity with its own set of laws. A police officer cannot detain you or order you to provide ID without reasonable and articulable suspicion of a crime. A warden in Pa is allowed to temporarily detain someone for a license and ID check, even if they do not suspect an violation occured. Beyond that, a hunter is not required to provide any other information. The warden then can further detain for investigation purposes if they believe a violation occured, but they must be able to articulate in a reasonable way why they suspect you of a violation. A hunter or citizen is never obligated to answer any questions or assist with an investigation.
If this is true, the effective shooting hours mean nothing as there is no way to shoot a deer at the final minute of shooting hours and get it out in time. So its September 20th in the SE, and you just shot a deer a minute before "shooting hours" are over and it ran 20 yards and piled up. There is no time to retrieve that deer in the final 3 seconds and its 80 degrees out so you have to wait until morning. The deer spoils and now you are guilty of wanton waste?
A former Pa game warden said publically hunters that shoot at a deer just prior to the end of legal shooting time are irresponsible. If they waited till the next morning as required by law to recover it and it was spoiled, he would not issue them another tag.
Well I don't want to derail the drone thread. But I got a written warning for hunting after hours. I was detained, question and searched. Not a thing wrong. I questioned why he was treating me the way he was. That just pissed him off more and his response was, I'm acting guilty. You can guess why he gave me a written warning. I realized after the fact why he gave me a written warning. A lot more to my story that involved one of the members of the game and fisheries committee members.
Ken, you left out which state that was in. Convient.
Gene, your okay with not providing anything to a WCO when stopped and questioned?
Illegal in Pennsylvania, found guilty and now panders social media for acceptance. After mind you being told not to and shocked he got busted. Guilty but cries. Maybe he should have listened?
When one of your hunts is ruined, or you find one flying over your property looking for deer, turkeys or bear, and suddenly you get more trespassers than normal you will understand. This should stay Illegal as they are.
"Gene, your okay with not providing anything to a WCO when stopped and questioned?"
I am okay with that as it is within someone's rights to do so. Rights should be respected if someone chooses to exercise them. As for myself, it would depend on the circumstances surrounding the encounter and the demeanor of the officer.
Crazy to read think that you can be found guilty of “hunting after hours” while trying to recover a wounded deer. If that is the law, then the law needs to be changed to allow for hunters to ethically make an attempt to recover their wounded or dead deer. It sounds like the PA game commission would rather be right than do what is right.
Crazy to read think that you can be found guilty of “hunting after hours” while trying to recover a wounded deer. If that is the law, then the law needs to be changed to allow for hunters to ethically make an attempt to recover their wounded or dead deer. It sounds like the PA game commission would rather be right than do what is right.
In thinking about this the PGC doesn't make the laws. The law the PGC operates under and enforces is Title 34 which is created by the General Assembly. So, much like Sunday hunting, the PGC is powerless to make any changes. Perhaps that is why they haven't prosecuted anyone for recovering a deer after dark.
Bowhunting 5C PENNSYLVANIA! Sorry I thought that was implied when it's listed on my profile and this is a PA chat site.
Bentarrow, Had to ask, there are people on here from all over. The guy from OH trying to justify his recovery operation to and his ilk.
DPMS wrote "A former Pa game warden said publically hunters that shoot at a deer just prior to the end of legal shooting time are irresponsible. If they waited till the next morning as required by law to recover it and it was spoiled, he would not issue them another tag."
Ain't that just like a Government Employee, calling the people he serves irresponsible for following the law the way the government wrote it.
"If your concern is about privacy its a little too late. Anyone on the net can look at an aerial map on google and see your house and even a street view."
Right, because static pictures that blur out people is the same as real time, live streaming. We have a resident a$$hole in our neighborhood that likes to hover his drone over my hot tub when my wife and I are in it or my son and his girlfriend. Does the same to our next door neighbor when his teen daughters are in it. And yes, you can see AND hear the damn buzzing.
"If you're a hunter and want to do your best to find a dead or wounded deer there is no better way than this."
Sure there is. Spend more time practicing and take high percentage shots. Kill and recover rates shoudl hit 100%. I get it, stuff happens. Let's not use this and the explosion of tracking dog requests to take less than optimal shots.
And again, this is being driven by a social media whore, Deer Drone Recovery. The website and social media is replete with grown men screaming, crying and rolling around on the ground over the recovery of their buck. Big buck. No doe, no "dinks". This is driven by likes, shares and follows on social media.
Bowhunting 5C wrote "Gene, your okay with not providing anything to a WCO when stopped and questioned?"
IMO, only a fool answers questions from a LEO in the course of them performing their duties. The only reason they ask questions is so they can jam you up.
I don't engage when the name calling starts. Too juvenile for me bud.
Name calling? Calling a guy an a$$hole cuz he likes to hover his drone over people in pools and hot tubs? Pull up your big girl panties. Or the social media whore comment? Cuz THAT is exactly what they are. Influencers sell out for content over resource. Period. And make no mistake, Deer Drone Recovery is an influencer.
So tell me again how static year old photos from Google Earth is the same as a live feed. Or perhaps the comment, "If you're a hunter and want to do your best to find a dead or wounded deer there is no better way than this." When there are several other methods that I would place way before contacting an influencer to generate $$'s for his SM content.
Moving on....
Browtine please keep us updated on what your firm figures out. After seeing this technology first hand and how quick and efficient it is I would like to help in the future. Thanks!
Good to hear! Dog or drone we have to do the best we can to recover our animals when something doesn't go as planned. Good luck this season.
So this illegal activity will continue huh? Because they deemed the laws screwed up? Well, looking forward to the crying youtube videos of them getting smacked around again then. One would think if found guilty of doing it once, one would learn, apparently not. D.D.D.T.
Fixedblade
I think they are trying to make a spectacle out of this case because using this technology is so hard to catch someone when using it. Heck my guy sat in the house with me and flew 2 miles away when locating my deer. I think that's why the PGC had to set up a sting. Either way it doesn't seem to scare the drone operators from helping hunters.
https://www.maverickdrone.com/products/skynet-drone-defense-3-pack
Update:
The link below is the Senate Appropriations Committee with the PGC and PA F&BC. https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/CMS/ArchiveDetails.cfm?SessYear=2023&MeetingId=3501&Code=3&Chamber=S At 33:50 through 36:40 you can listen to the questions posed by Senator Rothman and the Senate Chair to PGC Executive Director regarding the Drone case, whether tracking deer at night is illegal and what needs to be doen at the Legislative level to address this issue.
Browtine
That's awesome! Thanks
Curious Chad, the deer you recovered, was it a buck or doe?
"Either way it doesn't seem to scare the drone operators from helping hunters."
Or gathering footage for their channel. With tracking dogs, all I typically see on FB is guys offering their service and a pic or two of the recovered deer, buck or doe. Drone services? It's almost like recovery is secondary to likes shares and follows, hence the videos of hysterical hunters rolling on the ground crying and screaming over their recovered doe, oops, I mean target buck.
Hopefully the tracking at night gets squared away. And drone (big buck) recovery gets a stake in the heart.
I find it curious, stated he was able to find my deer (insert big buck here) from 2 miles away while at home. So, unless that property is 2 miles across, did he fly over private property without permission to get there, or did he follow public roads? And guessing this was in Pennsylvania and was totally illegal, did he turn himself in, or just hope a sympathetic warden let him off? Hmmmmm.
fixedblade
Awesome recovery story! The PGC are having a hard time with this so I believe that why most officers are staying away from citing a pilot. Seemed to be a personal issue between the piolet and officer on the "sting" operation. I just watched Drone Deer Recovery's most recent live podcast and Mike Yoder says the same thing. Either way the PGC can't explain why for years they haven't enforced the tracking at night law. Said, "Its up to the officers discretion." So maybe that's why your drone guy said the officers he spoke to aren't going to cite anyone when finding a downed animal with a drone.
By the way have you ever been in the middle of a meaningful conversation with someone and some pointless individual walks up and starts interjecting with useless information? Annoying to say the least!
John, he doesn't need permission to fly over any property goin from point A to point B and back again.
Or gathering footage for their channel. With tracking dogs, all I typically see on FB is guys offering their service and a pic or two of the recovered deer, buck or doe. Drone services? It's almost like recovery is secondary to likes shares and follows, hence the videos of hysterical hunters rolling on the ground crying and screaming over their recovered doe, oops, I mean target buck.
^^^^^^^^^right here^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
For those ripping the guy and ripping him further cause he said he might do it again, now that it is clear that tracking and recovering after legal shooting hours is illegal, are you all going to stop doing it?
Gene, buck up there young camper. It is illegal, they are but hurt not over doing it, but getting caught. Big difference. But, your point is moot, that spin on recovering after dark was the by product of an argument for them trying to justify breaking the law for pennsylvania. Knowing the difference is key. Caught, butt hurt crying social media snowflakes.
5C. Knowing that it is illegal to recover and track after dark, will you do it? You don't like drones. I get it. But that doesn't somehow negate the fact that recovering with a drone after hours and recovering on foot after hours are essentially the same thing under our current laws and regs. Both illegal. It sounds like you are getting butt hurt because the case puts "law abiding" hunters in a unique condundrum.
See, there's the spin. Not the same thing. The missing words are "using electronic devices " and they fit the bill as being Illegal. I don't hate drones, for some applications, legal they could serve a purpose. Invasion of privacy and trespassing are my personal hatred for them. Your a realistic person, do you for a second think once they get rolling it's not going to be a free for all on privacy violation, trespassing and driving game? How about the fact no one's answered the question about property lines from 500' up? Your okay with that? Having some idiots flying them on private property that they have 0 right to be over, interrupted hunts under the cloak of big buck recovery?
Trail cameras are electronic devices. Cellular trail cameras are double secret electronic devices. Just sayin'.
Have to use a flashlight at night to track or get in and out of the woods, electronic device that the PGC hasn't enforced. Also you can track on a Sunday, you can't hunt on all Sundays. Problems everywhere!
"See, there's the spin. Not the same thing. The missing words are "using electronic devices " and they fit the bill as being Illegal."
Using a drone is illegal because it is a prohibited device AND because it is illegal to track and/or recover after dark. BOTH of those factors were the main parts of the case against the guy. So, will you track and recover after dark?
"How about the fact no one's answered the question about property lines from 500' up? Your okay with that? Having some idiots flying them on private property that they have 0 right to be over, interrupted hunts under the cloak of big buck recovery?"
I think Bob did? As far as interrupted hunts, Deer were I hunt a lot pay little attention to cars, tractors, planes, kids playing, and I would assume drones. At the heights that they often operate, the noise would be neglible and the hunt not interrupted or ruined.
The drone we used started at 500 feet. When we located my deer he flew down to 75 feet and hovered over it for a while. Never spooked it or any other deer close by. People just don't know what they are talking about here.
Yeah...let me take my $15k drone and fly it through the timber so I can "drive" that big deer to you.
Awww.... looks like some conflates opposition to trolling. Or walking up with useless information. Just because it doesn't mesh with your opinion doesn't mean it's trolling or hijacking, Learn the difference. You want big buck drone recovery, I'm opposed.
Chad, you didn't answer the question if the deer you used a drone to illegally recover was a buck or a doe.
BTW, the last thread got nuked because a pedo started making comments about my son.
KAstring, even though I disagree with some of the things they wrote, Bowhunting 5C & Bowbender do have some legitimate concerns. What you call hijacking, I call someone making a stand on what they believe to be right.
So much for the "Code of Conduct" lol!
I'll place a call as well. Thanks!
Used a drone as well this season in Pennsylvania.
Opening day hunt looking to fill the freezer with a doe, 13 yard shot broadside. Lighted nock broke which skipped the arrow off my 55 pound Bear Grizzly riser resulting in a gut shot. Let her go for 5 hours before starting the track. Blood started out well but like most gut shots quickly went down to drops then nothing. I didn't want her to go to waste so I called for a drone. Showed the guy where on the map I found last blood. Didn't take him very long after that to find her. This technology is really amazing, I've never seen anything like it. This needs to be legal for the animals sake.
Wow! Trad guy using a drone for a doe. Huh...like the story.
First Trad deer. Wasn't going to end my first kill on a loss.
Looks like several new members were prompted to join here and post positive comments about drones.
Hopefully you'll post on other bow hunting threads.
Phil, also noticed the new folks posting. We'll see if they stick around for other threads.
Ok now my take on drones. I see both sides to this. I think that all drone users should have to carry insurance and be licensed. To get a license you would have to take a online class
Phil
Do you have to "post on other threads" to have value?
Hey look I'm the 100th post.
"Phil Do you have to "post on other threads" to have value? "
Not at all. The converse of that is true also - just because you post to other threads doesn't mean you're adding anything of value.
But this is a discussion forum. Most folks here participate in discussions on a wide range of bow hunting in PA topics. There are very few that join here solely to push an agenda and it's easy to see who they are.
I can assure you that you aren't going to change anyone's mind here no matter how persistent you are. That's just how things are today, especially on internet forums.
Oh I'm not looking to change minds, just set the record straight on topics that are completely incorrect. Seems like others are as well. I know that you have been an administrator on here for about 20 years now and who the group of loyalists are. Who gets punished and who doesn't. Have to be in that tight circle to last on here. I've been around a lot longer than you think.
Group of loyalists??? Now that's funny.
Loyalists to what? The PGC?? The UBP?? Themselves??
Most folks here that care about preserving and protecting bowhunting but, beyond that, they have their own thoughts and opinions and are definitely not a group of loyalists. Just look at this thread and the divergence of opinions (outside of the newcomers).
Oh Phil I've known you for too long to let you pull the wool over my eyes. See you had to throw that jab in there about new guys posting just to stir the pot because it does matter if you're new to the site. Have to be in the "circle" to not get attacked. I'm not going to sidetrack this post any longer. How about you PM me and let's set the record straight.
And through out this entire thread, no one has definitive answers on the trespassing aspect nor privacy issues. Can any of the "experts" here define how a drone from 500' up at night define property lines? Or of those drones from 500' up are viewing private properties and things they have no right to record or view.
Some say driving game is absurd, as well as their capacity to carry a payload now and drop bait on others properties. How can you say they won't be used for those illegal purposes.
As for the closing of previous threads, when you're attacking someone's kid a line was crossed. And, your not going to change my mind on this as it is still illegal. I will make sure to make those calls as well against it. Game recovery is good, we as hunters strive for that aspect no doubt. Until they figure this intrusive toy out, and our privacy as well as the boundaries are in question.
Lastly, ill ask you one thing, if from that 500' view, you're heat signature shows that down game on property you have 0 legal access to, how are you viewing it, and how do you go about trying to get it? In Pennsylvania, you have 0 rights to properties with or without the presence of a WCO or a LEO. how do you explain you know it's down, and you want to go get it? Property owners do not have to let you get it, explaining your trespassing drone found it, is different?
That's the BS I'm talking about. An unmanned aircraft in PA is allowed to fly over any property over the 400' limit. A manned aircraft must be 500' or higher. Call whoever you wish to fight for your rights.
What's the difference?
A person 3 stories up, binoculars and thermal images looking down onto a property with a swimming pool, property, farm, or whatever you are called a stalker, peeping Tom.
Light spillage into a public roadway from a private Light source is called Light trespass.
So, the drones are different?
And, your still not answering the questions of privacy nor trespassing. Because you can't, and that's fine. Didn't think you could.
That's the BS I'm talking about,
Congratulations on the recovery of your " big buck".
Bentarrow
Just make sure you “drive” some deer to 5C with your drone. lol!
3Under, congrats on recovering your doe.
