Is this whitetails vitals correct
Contributors to this thread:Equipment
From: bearhunter
13-Feb-07
From: Bou'bound
14-Feb-07
it is on the ones i have seen
From: Bushbow
14-Feb-07
Yes - and notice the distance from the top of the back to the spine up front. Now add 2-3 inches of hide and hair and see how easy it is to go over the spine and still think you were in the vitals. Also notice that the shoulder blade is actually OUT of the way with the leg back and it moves down and covers more vitals as the leg leg swings forward.
Bob Urban
From: Jackal
14-Feb-07
Hey Woody, post some that are correct.I would love to compare the two.
From: straightarrow
14-Feb-07
From: Ole Coyote
14-Feb-07
Got to go with Woody on this one the heart is wrong.
From: Ole Coyote
14-Feb-07
Organs
From: pybowhunter68
14-Feb-07
I would also say the heart is in the wrong location. According to the pic. to get a heart shot the deer would have to put its front leg over its neck and be angleing (very hard)away. :)
From: HunterJoe
14-Feb-07
Chart is correct - Heart is in correct position low in the front of the chest with the lungs on each side.
From: dennisomfs
14-Feb-07
...there are a ton of misconceptions about the H/L position but the charts shown here are pretty accurate with ole coyotes looking close...everyone seems to think that the heart is behind the leg. The dark line outlining the leg is misrepresenting the leg position and should be closer to the bone...unless this deer was using a bowflex machine and beefing up!!!
From: Glenn
14-Feb-07
This is a chest radiograph from a 110 labradoodle. I know, I know, it's not a deer but the anatomy, although not exact is similar. This film was shot on inspiration with the dog laying on his right side. You guys that are good with photo shop can have fun labeling all the organs. This should give you some idea of how the lungs/diaphragm sit in relation to the back of the rib cage and how far down the spine is from the top of the back. Hope you all find this interesting and if you have any questions, I'll check back in.
Glenn
From: Glenn
14-Feb-07
Sorry all, that should read 110 pound labradoodle. I really need a proof reader around here.
From: JTV
14-Feb-07
I was wondering if the 110 was this years model??? .......Jeff
From: Glenn
14-Feb-07
Uh, ya reckon? That is why I said similar and not exact. Heart is larger in carnivore, different lung capacity, etc. Just providing point of referrence for some that may not know how things are positioned.
From: Trophy8@work
14-Feb-07
Ah Woody, I think you should go back down the basement, chew on a moose carcus and have a beer.
don't worry spring will come soon....then maybe the wife will let you out...lol
From: Trophy8@work
14-Feb-07
brewing in the basement.hmmm interesting.
sent you a pm.
From: Big J
14-Feb-07
It is close enough for hunting purposes.
From: Trophy8@work
14-Feb-07
yes Big J...for practical purposes its close.
From: Bou'bound
14-Feb-07
yes it is close enough.
reminds me of the post on the other thread where the guy was upset his sight did not allow for 1/4" adjustments to point of impact at 40 yards.
close enough to kill
From: Stillhunter
14-Feb-07
Looks like most deer vital diagrams I have seen. The diagrams sure make it obvious that in order to center the lung/heart area you need to be slightly forward of the crease rather than behind it. At one time I was convinced that 3 to 4 inches behind the crease and low was the ideal shot, when in fact you are almost out of the lung area at that point.
Diagrams like these can be very helpful.
From: Dan
14-Feb-07
In line with shoulder, half way down- spine hit.
From: Dan
14-Feb-07
The autopsy-
From: midwest
14-Feb-07
Dan, Made that shot on an alert doe this last season. Center punched the scapula and dropped her in her tracks. Had to boil the spine section to get my slick trick back.
From: Dan
14-Feb-07
Yup midwest- put the measurement to it. Half way down. . . I can't say that enough in bowhunter ed classes. Above half way- right at the shoulder- will put you OVER the spine! I think a lot of deer are hit here out of tree stands. This current pic is actually a 220# field dressed deer. Imagine a doe or young buck- 2/3 the size. I realize the shoulder is moved forward in the pic- but realize that the entire vital area is 6 x 7". Also notice the dark line on the tape- this is the spine, half way down. That is the actual anatomy as I marked off the vitals from the inside and taped it off.
Dan
From: Ziek
15-Feb-07
Great pics! But for a complete assessment of vital organs, a top view is also required as they are not centered lateraly. While most hunters know that the heart is slightly left of center, more importantly, the liver is to the right. An important point to remember when assessing a hit on quartering away shots.
From: theohiowhitetail.com
15-Feb-07
Dan, Thanks for the photos. Do you work for CSI-Kansas?
From: Dan
15-Feb-07
CSI :) I like learning though. . . truth is a wonderful thing.
From: Bushbow
15-Feb-07
Dan - Great, Great stuff! - Very good example of the reality of the NON VOID! Love the pics and YES, truth is a wonderful thing!!
From: BB
15-Feb-07
I challenge anyone to show proof that the picture is not accurate. Saying it's not close without the proof really shows little. If it wrong, show what's wrong. I think it is very close to accurate. It might not be perfect, but it truly depicts how that animal is put together.
Okay, lets see the cons proof!
Have a great bowhunt. BB
From: Dan
15-Feb-07
You know- just thought of it. Perhaps next year, Pat could run a non-debate post (perhaps a special section with a few easy rules; i.e. two pics, xx words, etc) where we could all post autopsy pics with a brief description. This would be a great education piece for all. Just a thought. . . . (Pat are you reading??)
Dan
From: Dan
15-Feb-07
Oh yea- how about other species as well, i.e. bear, elk, etc.
From: skipmaster1
16-Feb-07
This pic is of a small doe I took this year. This is where the shot exited(broadside). I peeled the skin back to show it better. The leg is pulled foreward in the pic and the shot was just about in the "crease", maybe a half inch back, while standing relaxed
From: skipmaster1
16-Feb-07
In this pic it is a little hard to see, but I just clipped the top/back part of the heart. You can see the dark spot at the back of the heart where the blood clotted.
From: skipmaster1
16-Feb-07
Had I hit lower and slightly more forward I would have centered the heart. meaning slightly in or just a bit in front of the crease and in the lower 3rd of the body.
From: skipmaster1
16-Feb-07
Oh, yeah. this was a level shot from the ground.
From: rutman
16-Feb-07
My shot this year entered through the center of the leg, and also through the center of the heart. The deer was standing just as pictured by bearhunter. Jeff.
From: Bushbow@work
16-Feb-07
this shot to the heart
From: Bushbow@work
16-Feb-07
came from this shot. 8 feet up, broad side and I stuck in the off side leg bone. This is pretty much what the diagram shows.
From: Barclay
16-Feb-07
The lungs in the illustration are too large, an extra rib is shown, etc., but it's pretty darn close.
There is a book "The Perfect Shot North America - Shot Placement for North American Big Game" by Craig Boddington, Safari Press, Inc.
This book shows color, in the field photos of each North American big game species with an excellent color illustration of the animal's skeletal system, heart and lungs superimposed on the photo. The photos are taken broadside, frontal, quartering and the location of the preferred shots for each scenario are shown and discussed.
The book is geared toward rifle hunters, but is just as valuable for bowhunters.
Tim
From: BB
16-Feb-07
Woody, my post was not aimed just at you, but to others who feel the same way you do. It was asking for educational purposes and for the sake of a good discussion, and not to be a put down of anyone.
With that said, to me the rib issue is a very minor one from the stand point of hitting and killing the critter in a vital area. But you said "No! Not even close." So if it's not even close, the rib thing aside, then let’s see what else makes it "not even close".
I go on record as saying the placement of the bone structure on the front legs, the spine, and the placement of the organs is pretty much as it is in a live deer. I just want to know from those of you who think it’s way off, why and what is it that makes not close. Perhaps you can describe the discrepancies you see, or draw your own picture showing the rest of us why you believe what you believe.
Have a great bowhunt. BB
