Hammer's Link
Seems evidence contradicting the out of Africa evolution therory may actually exist. Well at one time it did exist but now it is being hidden and suppressed and further investigation is being denied?
If it is true then this is bad for the theory and it sure looks credible. Does this mean we did not all come from the same common ancestor out of Africa? Maybe the improbable and impossible happened 2 times in two different parts of the world? Maybe 2 ponds of goo gave us two common ancestors and some come from one and some from another? lol..
Seriously what does this all really mean to the current theory of evolution as it is pushed down our throats as fact when it seems it could change yet again?
"A skull dating back 700,000 years which is either Homo sapien or part Homo sapien is in direct conflict with the Out of Africa theory of human evolution."
Hammer's Link
Amoebus's Link
What is the 'Out of Africa theory of human evolution' and explain how this skull conflicts with it?
Here is a wiki page that has the Petralona skull along with many others from Europe that are older.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils
If there is a 'worldwide' movement to suppress european hominid fossils, they are doing a really poor job.
Also, what has genetics added to the Out of Africa theory?
In North America, we see homo fossils for the last 20,000 years (plus or minus). If your theory is true, we would not see ANY fossils before that. But, we see thousands/millions of fossils - just no homo fossils.
RP - Okay, what did you mean by your statement? How did humans get to the Americas, Australia, etc? Where did they come from? Why are there no fossils of homo in the americas older than ~20000 years? Why are there no fossil homo in Australia older than 70000 years? If homo has been in these places all along, why would their fossils have not been preserved? If they came from somewhere, where is that?
I am not sure about your geographical change theory in the time frame we are talking about for human evolution either. This is within 4 million years (even more recently if we are talking about the homo genus). If you are talking about continental drift and the like, I think it is on a much longer time scale.
That begs the question, "Is our perception of time today the same as it was back then?"
Hammer, you say you think certain people lived for hundreds of years. I think that is (with all due respect) a ridiculous claim, BUT, if you consider each phase of the moon as a year it could make sense. People think god created our world in 1 week. As our perception of time exists...that too (again, with all due respect) is a ridiculous claim. How does one create full grown plants and animals that never experienced infancy, yet expect them to reproduce infant offspring? Prove to me that all of life did not experience infancy. Prove to me that certain aspects of life did not begin by being "seeded" or "incubated".
Again, if time were measured in lunar or solar phases it becomes more plausible. Life did not begin in the sense of time that we currently recognize. The digital watch and grandfather clock were not invented then!!
How will mankind react when we discover that our oldest ancestor is a black, upright walking, hunter gatherer, that was simply fighting to survive the harsh extremes of an unpredictable and violent new world?
Creation is harder to believe than the bang/ooze theory?
Yeah HA...I'm a simple fool. I'm 49 years old and I have no common sense and no experience. I've learned nothing from observing the world around me, nor have I learned anything about the people I love, live with, interact with, and witness on a daily basis. I don't need to convince myself of anything.
How about you HA? What are you afraid of? What are you trying to convince YOURSELF of?
"Creation is harder to believe than the bang/ooze theory?"
They say... "The truth is stranger than fiction."
Well there is no fiction weaker than the bible story. It has nowhere near the creativity needed to convince most of us that the beginning life was as simple as a mud pie and a poison apple!
No offense intended...just sayin'!!!
Well now you said it. You do not believe in God because the bible would really be your only credible source and you see it as weak fiction. Of all the different "holy" writings the bible is the most plausible of all of them.
By the way for the bible to be put together the way it is and for it to be written over such a huge periods of time and still make sense defies human understanding. There had to be an all seeing supreme hand helping it along ESPECIALLY in early man. Its not like they had fax machines and internet back then and for documents to have even survived that long and for it to be put in practice for so long gives it more credibility IMO.
If you try to get different people to write stories like those over 1000's of years and then put it into a book and have it make any sense at all you would fail trying.
By the way you say my belief that man lived 100's of years seems ridiculous? Why? Do you know the environment of early man? I mean that environment gave us creatures that were monstrous and huge compared to ANYTHING we see alive today. Hell and elephant is tiny compared to many creatures of the past. A Giraffe is short compared to some creatures of the past. After the dino's went extinct then why didn't some (even a few) other giant creatures take their place? Everything in early earth was huge compared to know and there are scientific reasons why. Even trees were bigger. This means the environment was conducive for such things to exist on an epic scale. Why could critters or early man not have also lived longer as well as being huge?
You may see man living that long as ridiculous but just a few 100 years ago the thought of an animal the size of a 2 story home was ridiculous as well.
"If god simply "snapped" us into existence there will be NO human fossil remains found prior to 10,000 years ago"
Huh? Why is that? Why only 10,000 years ago? Your not back on the 6000 year old earth thing again that is preposterous by the way are you?
No one really knows what the early earth environment was really like. They can only take a wild guess. It could have been a primo earth that was perfect to sustain life for 100's of years if not more. We already know it was perfect to create huge animals the size of 2 story homes and bigger. Heck some turtles even today live a couple hundred years and they came along 100's of millions of years later so who knows what it was really like?
One thing is for certain..... Evolution goes through a new tweaking in its theory's every so often and each time we have them forced down our throats as facts. One of these days we will find a human that is 100's of thousands of years old and evolution will be washed away in its current form.
It has to do with the skull find in particular.
'It is either Homo sapien or part Homo sapien and in direct conflict with the Out of Africa theory of human evolution.' I think this is referred to as the Multiregional Continuity Model or the out of Africa model for comparison. This skull found would be in direct conflict with out of Africa.
This skull before a potential cover up was dated to be 700,000 years old like most stuff in that cave at the same layers.
"Roughly 100,000 years ago, the Old World was occupied by a morphologically diverse group of hominids. In Africa and the Middle East there was Homo sapiens; in Asia, Homo erectus; and in Europe, Homo neanderthalensis. However, by 30,000 years ago this taxonomic diversity vanished and humans everywhere had evolved into the anatomically and behaviorally modern form. The nature of this transformation is the focus of great deliberation between two schools of thought: one that stresses multiregional continuity and the other that suggests a single origin for modern humans."
Single origin theory would be the Out of Africa theory right? That's were it supposedly all began right? Well if this skulls data and the original suppressed info is correct and ever comes to light then it suggests that there was an independent evolution of Homo sapiens in Europe that is separate to that from Africa. That would crush the out of Africa theory and any single origin theory completely if I understand all this right. If that was to happen then we would have a big tweak to the evolution theory right? Maybe soon enough they will find that that Africans, Europeans, Asians etc all have their own individual common ancestor and we did not all come from 1 original source. lol.... Maybe there were 4 or 5 ponds of goo and each race of humans came from there own pond of goo. lol.. Just saying...It is no more crazy than some of the evolution theories that are fact one day and then shoved down our throats and then later found to be wrong and re-adjusted and then crammed down or throats again.
I never said I don't believe in god. Although its accuracy is a result of a lack of modern knowledge, the bible lacks certain important details and timelines. That makes it a speculative document. Don't be offended tho...all religions lack the same detail which makes them speculative as well.
"No one really knows what the early earth environment was really like."
You should watch NOVA on the PBS channel now and then. There is some pretty fascinating studies that have been done on our historical existence.
"One thing is for certain..... Evolution goes through a new tweaking in its theory's every so often and each time we have them forced down our throats as facts. One of these days we will find a human that is 100's of thousands of years old and evolution will be washed away in its current form."
That is the result of constant research as our ability to learn is expanded. But you're a man of faith. Why would you be bothered by someone pushing evolutional theory on you. Everyone would love to know the truth, but no one wants the truth to be the opposite of what they believe. If you deny that, you'd be lying to yourself. Otherwise you'd have no reason to participate in debates like this.
If you decided to try to convince me that my truck is white and not blue, the only reason I would have to debate that with is if I was afraid you might actually be right. Otherwise there is nothing to debate.
Like what exactly? Also what modern knowledge do you think would have changed early mans mind and therefore altered the way the bible reads?
By the way your rebuttals indicate beyond any reasonable doubt that you are at a min highly suspect there is a god!
"You should watch NOVA on the PBS channel now and then. There is some pretty fascinating studies that have been done on our historical existence."
Seen it! Their guess is about as good as yours! No one knows what the earth was really like 100 million years ago. PERIOD! It is speculative only based on very little data. Just because it is on TV does not make it so.
"But you're a man of faith. Why would you be bothered by someone pushing evolutional theory on you. Everyone would love to know the truth, but no one wants the truth to be the opposite of what they believe."
LOL. I am not worried about it being pushed on "me" but I am very worried about it being pushed on impressionable children as facts when they do not know any better and have none of the past history on how evolution theory keeps changing over and over and what was once fact is suddenly not fact every so often.
"If you decided to try to convince me that my truck is white and not blue, the only reason I would have to debate that with is if I was afraid you might actually be right"
If your truck is blue and you know it for sure then that debate would not be needed now would it. Evolution of humans is still open for debate due to big whopping holes in it.
Ummm...all of it!?!
"By the way your rebuttals indicate beyond any reasonable doubt that you are at a min highly suspect there is a god!"
AGAIN, I never said I don't believe in god. I AM in fact highly suspect of the accuracy of the bible. How do you know the prophets didn't embellish the "word" they received from god? it's a proven fact that if you tell one man a story he will skew it's accuracy the first time he tells it to someone else.
"Seen it! Their guess is about as good as yours! No one knows what the earth was really like 100 million years ago. PERIOD! It is speculative only based on very little data. Just because it is on TV does not make it so."
Touche'...As you can see, it goes both ways. Although the data we have today is much more accurate that what we had when the bible was written.
"LOL. I am not worried about it being pushed on "me" but I am very worried about it being pushed on impressionable children as facts when they do not know any better and have none of the past history on how evolution theory keeps changing over and over and what was once fact is suddenly not fact every so often."
I thought god knew us when we were in the womb? If so, none of us should question his part in creation. Are you saying gods way of creating us must be taught in the same manner that evolution must be taught? That doesn't make sense.
If your truck is blue and you know it for sure then that debate would not be needed now would it. Evolution of humans is still open for debate due to big whopping holes in it.
AGAIN...touche'! The bible has the same holes. In both cases they resemble black holes...which also are very difficult/impossible to detect and explain.
My biggest concern right now is the fact that our debate has turned into the same style of debate I used to have with Big Wind (Tate Tanka) and Sixby. We copy and paste each others point with a counter-point. Very cold and impersonal in my opinion! LOL!!
I consider evolutionary theory to be an example of how poorly people understand the world, but it is currently the most accepted seicntific theory of how life got here, so that is what I taught.
Not true! How can you prove that data today that is even older then back 100,000 years ago is more accurate?
"I thought god knew us when we were in the womb? If so, none of us should question his part in creation. Are you saying gods way of creating us must be taught in the same manner that evolution must be taught? That doesn't make sense. "
What in the world are you talking about?
"The bible has the same holes. In both cases they resemble black holes...which also are very difficult/impossible to detect and explain"
Explain the holes? Where? what? when?
" Very cold and impersonal in my opinion! LOL!! "
Touché but needed with you and your bunk you sling. LOL.... Just messing with ya you ole goat.
Some of us refer to it as "reality". If you were uncomfortable teaching it you should have chose to teach a different subject. Another example of not having the evidence to dispute a different view. It must not have had a big impact on your personal belief if you chose to conform to it. I for one would not be able to attempt to teach biblical history as I don't think it is accurate. Kinda like a liberal campaigning for a conservative...it makes no sense what-so-ever.
Ok...I'm done with the cut-n-paste.
With all due respect, the fact that you studied the bible in a higher learning atmosphere does not make it any more accurate than PBS airing scientific data on TV.
P.S. I may be an "Ole Goat", but the bunk I sling has 49 years of life experience behind it. Take it for what it's worth!! LOL!
OK you mean some of 'them' refer to it as reality and not "us" which is including you right? After all you have not said you do not believe in God right? lol
" I for one would not be able to attempt to teach biblical history as I don't think it is accurate"
You could not teach it unless you actually know what it says 70. Seriously. Based on past debates I personally feel your understanding of it is a little off and lacking. "God knew us in the womb" is a perfect example. He knew us but did we know him so not to have any questions? Exactly.... You likely feel the same about me and my understandings of evolution.
"the fact that you studied the bible in a higher learning atmosphere does not make it any more accurate than PBS airing scientific data on TV"
Has anyone implied it does? BTW PBS did not air scientific data. They aired a big azz guess based of SOME scientific data. BIG DIFFERANCE! If TV was around hundreds of years ago and we were the center of the universe was being slung up in the TV would it be true? Of course not!
I have 43 years life experience behind my opinions as well so take it for what it is worth or we will have our high noon dual MR.
Back to Out of Africa. Looks like the theory of 1 common ancestor may go up in dust soon enough. If so wouldn't that crush the theory altogether and make it go through a total redefining? If so we would need to accept that not just one amazing unrealistic event happened that put modern humans here but rather multiple events or perhaps 4 or 5 events happened and some of us evolved from one species and some from another. What would those odds be?
Thank goo that it created both a male and female at roughly the same time.
Thank goo for coincidentally including, among the massive list of phenomenally complex body parts, both a male and female set of fertile reproductive organs.
Then, of course, thank goo for mommas mammaries, so their highly complex offspring didn't starve to death until it became mature enough to eat whatever non-poisonous food it could accidentally stumble into...
Well, that is, unless goo created a male & female baby, of which were nurtured by(?)....maybe a kind family of ape-friendly clams & lizards.....which were also created by that same goo, under the same absolutely miraculous circumstances.
Yes, you have much to thank the almighty goo for.
Got Goo?
;^)
So much for human evolution, as least as far as intelligence goes, in Africa. :^)
;-)
Wow JawBow...That is some profound stuff! Obviously Hammer thinks it's profound since he said, "LMAO. You two. LOL. I love it." I assume that means he agrees with you in a jovial way.
Answer me this. Why did god give us a brain with more capacity than he gave us the ability to utilize?
Did goo give us the big brain, or did god give us the big brain?
Regardless of who gave it to us...the big question is, "Why can't we access it's full potential?" We can move our arms and legs, and we can communicate with our peers, but we can't tap the brains full potential.
Perhaps it's because he thought we may grow into it. or, perhaps it's because he wanted us to understand him. But he is waiting for the right time to allow us to understand...just not yet. I'm assuming there is a bible verse to explain this.?.?
"You could not teach it unless you actually know what it says 70. Seriously. Based on past debates I personally feel your understanding of it is a little off and lacking. "God knew us in the womb" is a perfect example. He knew us but did we know him so not to have any questions? Exactly.... You likely feel the same about me and my understandings of evolution."
Good point Hammer, I don't understand it. After so many "rabbit from the hat" claims, (or your version of flying spaghetti monster claims) I put the book down. Of course god knew us, but we didn't know him. I assume that explains the reason why we don't know him from birth yet we require another being (other than god himself) to teach us about him. You instinctively know who your mother is, but you have no clue who your father is until you spend time with him??? I say it's way too much inconsistency that applies to a well defined intelligence. In other words, humans are not as ignorant as they are led to believe they are...by their own peers.
Sorry buddy, I gotta raise the flag on this one.
I do agree in a jovial way.
Tell me this. Jawbows funny post aside how in the heck did male and female form at nearly the same time and how did all the perfect set of organs come about for a baby to survive and how did it come to be that we can multiply? At one time did males have a half pee pee and women had a half formed vajay jay? I mean we did not start as babies right? So how did we get by? How did early goo people procreate to form us? How did they eat? We evolved so where are the missing links? THERE ARE NONE!
"...just not yet. I'm assuming there is a bible verse to explain this.?.? "
Lame! Gezzzz 70.
" (or your version of flying spaghetti monster claims)"
That is you being a jack waggon who cant help himself. I have rarely quoted or even mentioned bible stories so back your little train up pal. Now your as bad as rivertrash I mean riverbottom with your insults. Your just pissed because your beloved theory may get earth shattering alterations soon and one common ancestor will be debunked soon enough. I think you know that.
" I assume that explains the reason why we don't know him from birth yet we require another being (other than god himself) to teach us about him"
We do "know God" from birth but not as he knows us. He knows us and each human has a sense of right and wrong instilled in them from birth IMO. Oh and by the way no one needs a person to teach whether there is a god. Most just know it. Heck early man sure knew it and had NO ONE to tell them squat so I guess they just made it up? How would they do that? They were less evolved and the concept would have been foreign and their little pee brains would not have known how to even form the idea. As far back as we can see humans have had a god in the heavens. Explain that!
A child does NOT know its mom from birth IMO. It is a bond that is created quickly.
"In other words, humans are not as ignorant as they are led to believe they are...by their own peers."
Most humans are dumber than a stump and a look backward on the evolutionary chain!
LMAO
Sorry Hammer...I gotta run soon so I'm going to make it a quick cut-n-paste!
"Tell me this. Jawbows funny post aside how in the heck did male and female form at nearly the same time and how did all the perfect set of organs come about for a baby to survive and how did it come to be that we can multiply? At one time did males have a half pee pee and women had a half formed vajay jay? I mean we did not start as babies right? So how did we get by? How did early goo people procreate to form us? How did they eat? We evolved so where are the missing links? THERE ARE NONE!"
Again...do you watch NOVA? Do you think that all of the small microscopic creatures and plankton in the worlds oceans are fake? Do you understand why they are at the bottom of the food chain? Here is a hint: they've been here since oxygen has been plentiful in the oceans. They were some of the first to procreate.
"Your just pissed because your beloved theory may get earth shattering alterations soon and one common ancestor will be debunked soon enough. I think you know that."
First of all, I'm not pissed about anything. I welcome the real answer to these questions regardless of which "theory" it favors. I'm a realist, that's why I lean the way I do, and I never said I don't believe in god...I just don't believe the same way you do. I won't be upset if the answers are contrary to my belief. Will you be upset if they aren't in your favor? Second, nothing will be "debunked" in our lifetime...and I KNOW YOU know that!
"Oh and by the way no one needs a person to teach whether there is a god. Most just know it. Heck early man sure knew it and had NO ONE to tell them squat so I guess they just made it up? How would they do that? They were less evolved and the concept would have been foreign and their little pee brains would not have known how to even form the idea. As far back as we can see humans have had a god in the heavens. Explain that!"
Its been the same through the ages. They didn't know why they were here, couldn't explain why they were here, and had to create their own deity in an effort to create a sense of order and purpose. The inconsistencies in the gods that were worshipped throughout the years explain that. Read up on some Native American folklore. The belief and worship of most tribes are fascinating to say the least...a little far fetched in my opinion, but fascinating all the same.
"They were less evolved and the concept would have been foreign and their little pee brains would not have known how to even form the idea."
What?...what did you say? What term were you using there?..."less evolved"?!? How dare you exploit the theory of evolution like that!!
"A child does NOT know its mom from birth IMO. It is a bond that is created quickly."
BS!...Again, pay attention next time you watch a NOVA documentary or watch your dog when she has puppies.
"Most humans are dumber than a stump and a look backward on the evolutionary chain!"
There is so much wrong, yet ironic about that statement, I don't even know where to start. More surprisingly, I never thought you'd be the type to believe such a thing. as a matter of fact, I still don't think you really do believe it yourself.
70lbdraw, my little stab at humor is a gob of goo compared to Joey's post. That right there is funny...and I don't care who you are!!
"They were some of the first to procreate"
I know how they say it all happned but they have no proof on how it happened to US.
By the way....No they didn't procreate. They multiplied (split). Big difference. What did we multiply from?
So how did we form? Where are the missing links? Any link for that matter beyond some relatively new primate? There is nothing. They say we evolve from something in a pond of goo but they have NOTTA to explain it other than supposition and a few bones that they say is our ancestor which now we here there may be multiple common ancestors instead so that's out the window as well. IMO they don't now which end of their AZZ is up and they keep guessing.
"Will you be upset if they aren't in your favor?"
No! Why? Well because it wont happen. They will come up with a new theory or tweak it in the face of overwhelming evidence and then expect no one to be paying attention to how wrong they were the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd time and then they will expect everyone to except it and if you don't you are a god loving fool and Neanderthal if you don't.. Of course their constant changing theory cannot ever be questioned.
"Second, nothing will be "debunked" in our lifetime...and I KNOW YOU know that!"
Wrong... I think it will be debunked. Not totally debunked but enough to shed a big light on how wrong the theory was that was sold as gospel.
As to gods....Well if they were Neanderthals then why is the 1st record of man show a God? They were less evolved and could barley even start a fire and lived in caves and just PRESTO....made up God? CMON?
"What?...what did you say? What term were you using there?..."less evolved"?!? How dare you exploit the theory of evolution like that!!"
That's right I will exploit its preposterous nature. To think that less evolved humans who could barley walk and feed themselves somehow formed the idea of a god even before that is just crazy. Maybe they just new there was a creator? Maybe they in their infinitesimal minds even then knew something was not right and poof the universe was formed out of nothing and then were all here didn't happen. But hey look at it this way. There is still the vast majority who are far superiorly evolved then they were who have no doubt there is a god. What's that say about our current species in the evolutionary ladder that we still believe? With all the supposed evidence how can we be so naïve?
"BS!...Again, pay attention next time you watch a NOVA documentary or watch your dog when she has puppies"
Knowing to latch onto the nipple of the bitch and a bond are two different things. Pull that pup from its mom the instant it is born and put it in with another litter of pups and it will try to feed from the other bitch and not know the difference until the other mother refuses. It would be lost not knowing what's happening. If the bond was instant it would not even try right away right? LOL. :o) Again a bond is formed over a period of time. Nova didn't tell you that did it? There are species who can be cared for by females other than the mother and it happens in the wild with other species at a very young age. Lion cubs will bond and feed with another female relatively quick when the option presents itself etc.
"More surprisingly, I never thought you'd be the type to believe such a thing. as a matter of fact, I still don't think you really do believe it yourself. "
I a using the theory word game and it is nice to be able to point out how most humans are a look backward on the evolutionary chain and dumber than stones. Hey I am one of those morons so there!