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WHY does the world tolerate this???

The KKK members were not Christians, they were progressive liberals who only changed the way they operate today, abortion and welfare are just a few of their tools.

The following may seem ancient times to some.. not to me.... There is evil in this world. I've experienced it.

The VC on more than a couple occasions would go into a village sympathetic to the south Vietnamese government or to our troops.. they's cut or rip off an arm of every single child. That's a fact.. I witnessed the aftermath.

The NVA captured a 4 man Huey crew .. we'd assisted in the search the evening before until dark following their call that they'd been shot down. Didn't find them. They were found the next day all dead hanging by their ankles in a tree. They'd been skinned alive. Not found by me.. they were from another outfit.. 1st Cav I think.. and I was doing my daily into Khe San and adjoining areas.. Their own people found them and related it.

A friend went to visit his girl the night before he went back to the world for a 30 day leave. The VC got him. He was found shot in both ankles, both thighs, both shoulders, the groin and the chest. Sequence obvious.

The NVA mass buried between 5000 and 9000 civilian people from the city of Hue during the Tet Offensive.

I did what I could... biggest regret of my life is not staying over there instead of coming home after 1 tour.

And when I got home in the summer of 68.. I found over half the country protesting my war against evil... I said fk it and guess I got drunk for about 10 years or so...maybe it was just an excuse I did'n need though..

Protesters are just impotent yapping jackals ...they get in the way and I pretty much despise them and their self righteous justifications for their BS.. especially when they wrap in the flag, pronounce their "support of the troops"... bla bla bla..

Anyway point of the ramble is.. there ARE bad guys..they need killed. It's always been there.. the evil. they are better dead....

Sucks to be too damn old. I can only watch events.

-I believe he does. I also believe he knows how vacuous and meaningless it would be to circumvent free will.

-I don't like the fact God allows atheists and secular humanists governmental power but it does happen.

Eternity is the proper perspective to view the issue of pain and suffering.

The most harmful religions by 100s of millions of lost souls is atheism and secularism.

Please explain how those religions are so much more reasonable and kinder than Christianity.

Besides... who's side would I be on? I don't especially like any sides i see. ;)

BTW, Forrest said, "It happens!" The context provided the nominative for the enterprising bumper sticker magnate-to-be.

Frankly, I do not understand why an apologist of atheism is so adamant about decrying other religions. If you came from nothing and will return to nothing, your existence has no context for the concern of, well, anything.

"I just want people to know the truth. "

I just want people to know "my" truth. There, fixed. No need to thank me.

"No, there's only one truth."

'zactly! Glad you finally acknowledged it.

John 14:6 KJV

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Again, glad I could help. 'specially on the Lords day. That's all the thanks I need.

just extremist leftists who thrive exist on agitation and opposition of anything perceived as "conservative, Christian, or republican"

you'd be the first to not display all the attributes you listed

welcome

This leav es the one faith that loves and serves the one true and real God with a choice of three options.

1. They can completely destroy the enemy of the one Real and True God so that only those that serve the one real and true God remain. 2. That can simply allow evil to overcome them and drive them from the face of the earth. This is what is happening now and God saw it for He states in His Word that when the Son of Man returns shall He find faith and another scripture that if He does not hasten His return no flesh shall be saved

3. The people of God can fight the real fight. Spiritually . We do not war against flesh and blood but against powers, principalities, the rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in high places. We do this by influence and testimony not by cutting heads off. We trust in the one true and living God to deliver us from evil and the workers of evil. We know the end and we know who wins. We Win.

God bless, Steve

-That's an awesome development. I know folks who will not accept that reality. Unfortunately for you, you are in no more predisposed position to comprehend or express eternal truth than the next person.

And you'll NEVER hear it from Obama!!!

: strong belief or trust in someone or something

: belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs

: a system of religious beliefs"

Matt, trust requires faith. Your religion also requires faith because you cannot be empirically verified while you obtain the capacity to type on your keyboard. Or draw air. Simple truth - one that makes you specifically religiously faithful.

So believe what you wish but do not be deceived or so conceited as to propose any manner of religious neutrality or to ignore the fundamental meaning of words.

You'd have better luck disproving gravity by jumping.

At 18 trillion and climbing ...I say again...We are not the policeman of the world. Bring'em home now. Follow the constitution and the advice of our forefathers.

We have serious issues going on here at home that must be addressed. To continue what were doing will destroy us.

Golf is not analogous to religion. Though, as many times as I hear "invocations" to God on the course, it should be.

In the case of the atheist religion, nothing does not equate to mere absence. It is a theological black hole.

But WHY do you have to beat the rest of us over the head with OUR choice to believe?

Faith is a personal thing. It's either part of you or it isn't.

Stop feeding trolls!

It shouldn't matter if they were Christian children or Satanist children. I bet you'll never see our news media whipping us up into a frenzy to go and bomb anyone that beheads "satanic children". Never happen.

What about the 20 or so killed in Chicago last week? What about the concentrations camps that are still going on? There are horrible things going on in many countries that the media never reports. Why does the media focus on this? Because they are "Christian children"? Whatever that means.

"WHY does the world tolerate this???"

Why do we tolerate what OUR government is doing right now?

Save them from what exactly? Going to hell or heaven upon death or perhaps you are saving them from going nowhere and just dying? Just sayen!

According to you there is no God so they are going through life just trying to apply well intention but fake made up things that only serves to do good mostly and help give them comfort on a personal level so what are you saving them from exactly? Maybe saving them from being moral?

Your reason for being here is total made up bull.

By the way above you mentioned about the OT still applying. Well that's where your education and understanding the bible is failing you. We live under the new covenant NOT the old. Go learn how writing was done during OT times and also Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek and get a better understand so you know what you are talking about.

So George presumes the country is and will remain Christian. He is certainly equating religion and denomination. Thanks for the edifying quote.

If you are comfortable in your Faith, there will be no need to argue and attack those without. Pray for them instead.

No because they are children. Look at the coverage given to the Muslim children just killed by the Taliban in Pakistan. I also think the beheading sets it apart from other killings.

I agree with you but will add that I think worldwide Christianity is under attack and hopefully the press is starting to give attention to it.

If anything, prayer is a weapon in the war of the spirit versus the flesh.

There are a good many better atheist spokespersons out there than him.

Constantly selecting him as an example of atheist thought is very much akin to us selecting the late Fred Phelps as the spokesman for all believers. It's insulting and disingenuous.

I would agree that Maher's enthusiasm in the cause is primarily a matter of another "shock jock" selecting a cause that will help keep him in the spotlight, and is not the the best source of knowledge or wisdom, but is more appropriately designated as his "shtick", or gimmick.....just part of the act.

He does garner the audience with his crude commentary to motivate a portion of that audience to look further into the questions they may have long harbored and have not heard answered.

More refined and more reasoned reasoned spokespersons abound if you seek them.

I find Matt's posts to be generally very informative and respectfully presented, particularly in view of the insults and hate speech directed at him in return by several posters.

You do present one of the more thoughtful responses in your post above, in pointing out that it is the effect on the praying person that is the real point rather than the effect on the deity being addressed.

Such points are helpful and could bridge some of the gaps between the opposing sides of the apparent chasm that separates believers and non-believers.

I see us as being for the most part all humans in search of the right things to do and the reasons for doing them. We approach the quest from different directions with differing bases of belief or knowledge, but our goals are more common than opposite.

If we had anyone parroting Phelps, alluding to him would be, likewise, appropriate.

You are a fellow I would consider thoughtful and measured. And, though his zeal is admiral, Matt is much more blatantly provocative.

I never cared for that fellow's opinions.

Just for you to answer some of your questions:

"Oh let me ne'er forget, that though the wrong seems oft so strong, God is the ruler yet."

I am still praying for you, Matt.

. . . completed with Scripture references . . . . .

I have been on an emotional roller coaster today.

I never knew that you flew missions into Khe Sahn.

I lost a relative there..

They recovered his body in 2004, and brought him back to the states.

You probably met him, Lcpl Donnie Mitchell.

My Mom still has a Cedar Gun Cabinet built by his Father, Herman, given to my Grandfather, passed down to my Mother.

Many emotions today . . . . . .

I was Army as you know.. primary missions were MACV flights. I did a daily run from Hue Phu Bai to Khe San from Tet 68 until the end when 1st cav came in.. 6 weeks or so I guess...did some support in city of Hue battle also... special forces camp by border..

We never landed and stayed.. there was always heavy fire and then rockets and mortars coming down runway as we came in. We'd just do a hover stop to let off guys and then have to come back in and pick them up... so never really met any marines that were dug in there. The NVA had trenches like a WW1 movie real close and owned the hill sides..Finally the weather broke and air strikes were possible..

It was ... interesting. ;) Got some "no shit" stories i'd tell you in person ..

My condolences for your relative...

Most will never know the hell that you flew into at Khe Sahn. At the height of the seige, every aircraft arriving got hit, and a huge percentage never made it out.

I am glad you still speak out against horror, evil, and tyranny.

My kin were lucky, they got closure on my distant cousin, Donnie. Many families of MIA never got any answers.

What a small world, too, as I got assigned to a Marine KC-130 Squadron in 1991, and reviewing the Maintenance Logs, I noticed small arms battle damage documentation on a few of the Birds. I am guessing either Khe Sahn or Chu Lai.

I still pray for you, too, Bluedog. However, after newfound knowledge, I doubt that I am the first Jarhead to ever send prayers your way.

Thank you for your bravery, and keeping untold lives safe. Maybe God had plans for you to be a witness to the evil in the world through your eyes and experience.

Tony

Your words give me chills. I have had it too easy. I think I might be too comfortable in not having been tested as BD was. Thank you gents for your service and courage!

There's a trick where one can disengage and sort of watch yourself like you're playing a role in a movie.. (hence the saying "It's only a movie")

And imagine to a North Vietnamese soldier.. I'm evil personified.. all depends on the perspective..

Btw my old friend "Harley Rider" was a Marine Cpl on a stretch of road east of Khe San.. think up toward Dong ha?.. he later was a "mustang", went officer, and did desert storm as a captain or maybe a major. He is a brave man.

I just did 3 years..i was never a lifer for 2 main reasons..back then the pay sucked.. E5 under 2.. base $212, $33 combat and $33 flight for a grand total of $278 a month...pretty lame.

and i was maybe immature, for whatever reason always seemed to fight authority..and made a lousy state side soldier i guess. I made E5 in 16 or 17 months, many crew chiefs did in Vietnam... I got out an E3... whoops.. .. Ahh well.. ;) Honorably discharged of course..

-Ours. Specifically the Christian God. By design. It takes a moral people to self-regulate. And that is why the further we slide into secular humanism, the more regulation to which we are subjected. Not a coincidence.

"Dawkins talks about altruism on the link."

I think the question was "in your own words".

Nice dodge though. That bump you keep feeling on your ass? It's a wall you backed into.

“Morality is neither rational nor absolute nor natural."

No wonder you deny God. To ascribe to that belief would clearly require that there be no higher moral absolute than doing whatever the F' you want.....

LOL ! Bluedog, during the 20 that I served, there was an unwritten rule the Elephants ( Generals ) went by when choosing the next Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps.

If he didn't have at least one Article 15 in his Record Book, he couldn't be considered for the highest enlisted post.

So . . . . you are in good company with quite a few good Marines . . . .

;^)

Basically, the answer that you seek was that our "moral code" or "moral compass" evolved as an acceptable code of behavior among our tribesmen/clan members as we became social in our earliest years forming groups to aid in survival (hunting, defense).

So it originated with "us". And it still does. Our own personal consciences are formed by our "upbringing" with or without varying degrees of influence from a number of sources as we grow and form into persons responsible for our own behavior. Parents and family, peers, coaches, clergy, the books we read and shows we watch, all make their imprint on our personal feeling of what's right and wrong.

The words you spoke about only your belief system standing between you and raping and pillaging came up often in those discussions, too, but I doubt very much that even those who typed them would have actually become the pirates they described if they suddenly lost their faith in their deity. They might feel kind of at sea with no anchor for a while, but I expect most would find their own acceptable behavior levels after a short period of reflection, and would continue to be pretty much the same people they were before.

One of the beauties of a nation with complete religious freedom is that it makes it easy for people to "vote with their feet" and attend the church that best matches their own standards and beliefs. As the country grew and the travels were easier and faster, that tendency grew.

Laws and the behavioral codes of various religions were a natural outgrowth of those earliest standards of behavior that can also be seen among many animals, as pointed out above.

Probably the most cited single guiding principle that seems to also be the most widely accepted is "The Golden Rule", "do unto others as ye would have them do unto you".

That principle, in very similar wording, has been found in some of the earliest writings in various societies across the globe, including many that predate the monotheist religions that led to the belief in the God of the Bible.

Of course many of those who believe in the biblical story of our origins insist that such a principle was there in the earliest human writings because it was "written on our hearts by the hand of God before we were born".

As with most (all?) theological disputes, there's no way to empirically prove either point to the satisfaction of the other side.

Does that make such discussions worthless and a waste of time? I don't think so. It allows us to see the other person's point of view, even though we are not convinced in the least to convert to it.

It probably helps ease some of the tensions and suspicions by showing that there IS another legitimate viewpoint that is neither "the work of the Devil" or completely naive fantasy, but rather a considered opinion of another human on the issue.

If it helps, think of it as being like Protestantism in allowing many other versions of the church's basic "truth" to be seen and adopted by various individuals as they chose. The 'full-submersion' folks may still be quite sure that the 'sprinklers' are hell-bound, but they don't seem as inspired to shoot at them as they once were, or vice versa.

Freedom is good, and I don't know of any atheists who actually want to remove your right to believe whatever you choose. We would like to see PUBLIC facilities and actions required of the public to enjoy full citizenship be available for ALL citizens to partake of without participating in someone else's prayer service or pretending to join them in their belief system...and of course, we'd rather not pay for that system either. And we'd naturally prefer that our children not be indoctrinated in someone else's religious beliefs while they attend a public tax-supported school. I don't see those as unreasonable things to expect in a country that was formed as one where each individual was to enjoy full freedom of religion, which would necessarily include the option of "none of the above" in order to be complete freedom.

The answer you sought is there, I believe. It's not something that can be typed out in the space of a postage stamp, although others might well do it in fewer words than I did. I think it's a false economy to argue something through twenty posts to cover the points that could be covered in one longer one.

I hope that helps.

"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion."

~Abraham Lincoln

I would question how you quantify bad without moral law.

Is the beheading of children Good or Bad to you?

Kinda like asking for the definition of a crooked line and not knowing what a straight line is.

Was that an A-10 just flew over your head?

-Not a problem for me. It does present you with a logical paradox that undermines your theological position.

-You are expressing absolutes. How you cannot recognize that is beyond me.

"Where is the paradox?" -Identified in your own word choice.

"I don't think you guys know what the word paradox means. Click the link for a good example of a paradox."

Apparently, you are unable to explain what a paradox is as well. Otherwise you would not have included a link. Once, just once, I would like you to use your own thoughts and words to defend your position.

When I was attending Warrant Officer School at Quantico, we studied Sun Tzu's book, "The Art of War".

One axiom state that when you are too weak to defend, you must attack.

Matt's position is too weak to defend, therefore attack is his only option.

?per??däks/ noun

-a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.

-a potentially serious conflict between quantum mechanics and the general theory of relativity known as the information paradox"

-a seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true."

In the literary sense, paradoxes can be employed to reveal a sublime truth. But it is a purposeful and well crafted metaphor. That is my understanding of a paradox. Right or wrong, I could not find a cartoon to express exactly my intention. Sorry.

kk

Actually, no, you haven't and despite other posters tyring to illuminate the path you continue to flail away like the average third-grade partier swinging at the pinata.

In school did you express similar annoyance when the teacher handed you a test without the answers already filled in?

It's not that the answer isn't there Matt; it's that you refuse to see it as it doesn't square with your expressed belief system.

Tony,

Years ago a good friend graced me with a copy of The Art of War; I like the quote you cited as well as this one: "If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself."

I concur with your analysis on how appropriately directed the quote is.

She said "Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.". Since a paradox is simply an apparent contradiction, I would think the advice would apply there as well.

Of course it leads us back to the verification of our individual premises again, so the circle continues. 8^)

This is also prophesied. NOt only do they reject God come in the flesh but they reject the empirical evidence that is right in front of their eyes. Blind not only leading blind but so blind that they attempt to mislead those that are not blind.

God bless, Steve

This is the tomb of Saint Mathias, located at Saint Mathias Church in Trier Germany.

St. Mathias was an Apostle of Christ, and witnessed many of the Miracles of the Disciples of Christ.

You want reliable evidence, here it is again, for you to just ingore again.

Really, Russ? Did Benjamin Franklin tell you himself about the Representative Republic our forefathers gave us?

"Or are we to accept the handed down lore of the Church "

Not lore, eye witness accounts.

You can google the Disciple John, island of Patmos, where he died of old age.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are even more artifacts, very simular in nature to our own Federalist Papers handed down by our forefathers during the discussions of our Constitution.

Oh MAN ! I completely forgot about those two random gas molecules that met in the Godless void of space, and created a big bang.

Sorry.

I borrowed said evolution journals, hackbow, but cannot find an answer to where those two gas molecules came from. No atheist seems to ever be able to explain that part to me.

;^)

That the disciples who witnessed Him were persecuted and, save John, died excruciating deaths is also historical fact. These people did not hold out for riches,wanton sex or earthly favor. They died as itinerant and impoverished preachers of what they had seen.

Call me a cynic but I cannot imagine being disemboweled or crucified upside down for a fairy tale. Conversely, had I known the eternal truth, no earthly horror could prevent me from holding fast to it.

No surprise to me.

Could you be disemboweled for your enthroned nothingness?

On the same train of thought, Christ and the Disciples tried to spread the message of God's love through love. Not at the point of a sword, or the sheer terror of flying a plane into buildings, but through the grace of God, in person from the risen Son of God, and led by the Holy Spirit.

That message, of God's love for mankind, the overall theme of Family centered on a Resurected Savior that forever defeated the minions of Satan on that third day, is specifically noted in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

- more artifacts that Matt Finney will not accept, but cannot deny in the light of day.

Thats right, Matt, I said it. You may not accept it, but you absolutely cannot deny it.

I am still praying for you Matt, and Russ, and Bluedog.

There have certainly been many other examples of the faithful being tortured and killed by ....the other faithful (to a religion that differed either vastly or sometimes over trivial details).

Those of us without any faith have already considered and decided against believing. In doing so, we have assured that our eternal souls will be condemned to the flames and torments of the promised afterlife, if we are wrong. The threat of disembowelment or beheading or even being burned at the stake seems to pale in the comparison.

So you are not talking to people of no convictions when you address us, or people who have simply never heard "the message", but to others who are convinced enough to bet an eternal afterlife in Hell against our convictions that there will be none. It's not a thing that most of us have undertaken easily or without serious reflection.

We have also accepted the certainty of expulsion from some circles, probable discrimination in the workplace, being shunned by some members of our own families, and even dismissed as people who can't very well be considered as American citizens by at least a couple of presidents recently.

Probably those without strong convictions in their decision would have folded to the pressure quickly, and at least made the pretense of joining the majority, just to go along.

So what makes us insist that our views be seen as valid? I mean, besides the above.

For me, the greatest factor in becoming more vocal about my atheism is the population explosion. The world population is now at something upwards of seven billion people. When I was born, it was approximately a third that number.

Depending on your personal acceptance of various facts and theories about the state we are in re sustainability, we have either passed the level of long-term sustainability or are surely approaching it quickly.

Meanwhile, virtually every religion in the world is still involved in the War of the Wombs, trying to outbreed the competition before the final days.

IMO, it's time to stop the folly and begin to make decisions based on what is now called "factual truth" in this day when we apparently have a choice between it and other "truths".

"He will provide" is not something we see as good strategy for our children and theirs. I realize that many disagree and feel that we should breed like rabbits and pray that our fairy godfather will take care of us in our coming needs.

We have been warned repeatedly over the last two centuries by scholars from Malthus to Ehrlich and we have persisted in multiplying at stupid levels with the enthusiastic encouragement of nearly every religious organization in the world.

I won't be having any grandchildren, even though the wife and I would have loved to have a few. It;s not for my grandchildren's sake that I see the need to stop the folly of the War of the Wombs, it's for yours.

I used to think that there would eventually be some point at which the looming disaster of overpopulation would become so obvious that it would trump religious urging in the public mind, but I doubt now that such transformation will come before the opportunity is gone to solve the issue without drastic measures.

"Then why doesn't he just stop it?"

Stick around because you ain't seen nothing yet! He will stop it, and I don't think you're going to like it much considering your current convictions...or lack thereof.

-Everyone has to choose and everyone wagers harm - or, at least, significant loss in so doing.

" The threat of disembowelment or beheading or even being burned at the stake seems to pale in the comparison."

-With respects, Russ, your philosophical and intellectual regard of pain is not comparable to being flayed alive. Bartholomew's suffering was real. Thus far, yours is only theoretical (as it is for all of us). Should the time come to pass that you are offered belief in God or eternal damnation, and you choose damnation for your faith, only then do you compare to the Apostles' conviction.

We also know what atheists are willing to do? Fact - 100,000,000 million dead in the last century thanks to communism, which one of the main tenents is atheism. Your track record, own it.

However, lift the hood on the circumstances. The Apostles were not locked in a burning compound, set upon by better armed foe, they were not given spiked Koolaid at gunpoint, they were not chosen out of an army for a mission.

They were sent out in virtual isolation to evangelize what they witnessed. No peer pressure, no outside force and "in the wilderness" alone, each to a man accepted a harsh death rather than renounce. Even the exiled John was expecting to be martyred until his 11th hour "reprieve" to Patmos.

That has significant meaning. Couple that with the scholarly acceptance of the life, ministry and crucifixion of Jesus and now, there exists extraordinary weight to the Divinity of Christ.

If the Ascension did not happen, why would these men, when left to their own devices, choose persecution and death for a lie? All 12 would have to be insane and the mathematical odds are against that proposition.

According to my Grandfather, he does, and by all worldly accounts, I should not be here.

In winter of 1934, in the middle of the last Great Depression, my Mother, as a child, caught both Scarlet Fever and Whooping Cough at the same time. There were not any antibiotics then, or other miracle drugs to combat either disease.

My Grandfather told me the Doctor was summoned to the farm one evening, as my family thought Mama was going to die. Sure enough, the Doctor told my Grandfather that Mama would not live to see another sunrise. One of my Great Uncles left, and went home to build my mother a Cedar Casket for burial. Relatives were sobbing, and much anguish was about that evening amongst family and neighbors, near the Caldwell/Trigg county countryside.

My Grandfather, decided to do something. He got up, went back behind the barn, got on his knees and prayed. Later, he came back into the house, and told everyone he had been answered, and that my Mama would live. Most scoffed, and the Doctor just shook his head and went home, as there was nothing else he could do.

Not only did Mama survive, she was out of bed in a few days playing and acting like nothing had ever been wrong.

That was my Grandfather, a Christian, believing in the word of God, "He will provide", and seeking comfort in his family’s time of need.

I should not be here to tell the tale.

In the middle of the last Great Depression, famine came to the Family Farm one fall. The Vegetable Garden had been destroyed by insects, crops failed due to drought and blight, the pastures were bare, and my Grandfather had to sell off all his hogs and cattle because he could not feed them. A Fox had gotten into the hen house and killed all the chickens ( for those that don’t know, a Fox that gets into a hen house goes into a killing frenzy due to all the noise from the chickens, etc. ) They literally had nothing.

My Mom tells it that they were absolutely down to their last morsels of food, no outside work to be found for my Grandfather, and they literally did not know what was to become of them. My Grandfather, once again, went out behind the barn, dropped to his knees again, and prayed to God for help.

The next morning when they got up, my Grandfather opened the door, and there practically dead, was an old grey faced emaciated Black and Tan Coon Hound just laying there. Now my Grandfather was a kind man, and Mama tells me his missed out on a lot of money as a Farmer, because he could not even stand to see his cattle penned up and fattened for market. So my Grandfather took the dog to the barn, made a bed of straw for him to sleep on, and basically nursed that old grey faced Coonhound back from the brinks of starvation, sharing their last morsels of food with that old dog. He asked around the area if any Farmers were missing the dog, and no one ever heard that anyone that was even looking for a dog. It was a mystery where that old dog came from.

My Grandfather named him Old Jake.

Old Jake came around – back from the brink of starvation, and after my Grandfather determined he was not Rabid, he let him out one afternoon. Well just wouldn’t you know it, that dog ran off immediately, and my Grandfather thought they would never see that dog again.

The next morning, my Grandfather got up, opened the front door, and there was Old Jake, watching over three Rabbits he had caught and killed that night. Mama tells the story that for the rest of the Fall, leading right up to Christmas, that my Grandfather hunted and trapped with that old dog, the family eating off the land, trading Furs for shoes, clothes, store bought food, new chickens for the coop, until their cupboards were overflowing with bounty.

Mama said that Old Jake could smell a Mink or Muskrat a mile away, and lead my Grandfather to the spot to place his traps. And Old Jake was indeed a true Coon Hound: when he got a chance at a Coon or Possum on the ground, it was game over for them. Old Jake would get them by the neck and shake them like a rag doll.

Now my Grandmother always kept a spotless home, and never allowed any animals into it. Mama says she never saw a speck of dust anywhere. My Grandmother was not fond of animals in particular, and she really didn’t like dogs at all. Come that Christmas morning, my Grandmother started cooking. Turkey and dressing, pie, and even a mince meat pie of wild game. As the family sat down, and as usual my Grandfather got ready to say the blessing, my Grandmother looked around their small farmhouse, taking in the view of her 5 children, well fed, clothes on their back, new winter coats and new shoes, kitchen cupboards full of food – and then she bowed her head as my Grandfather said blessing.

After blessing, my Grandmother told everyone to stop. She carved the Turkey, then walked to the front door, and called Old Jake. Old Jake ran in, and laid down by the fireplace. My Grandmother then gave Old Jake the first piece of the turkey, and just sat there with Old Jake and petted him for a while. Mama says that is the only time she ever saw my Grandmother touch a dog. Later, Old Jake also got the first piece of Mincemeat Pie.

For one great and glorious day, my Mama and Aunts got to play inside by the fire with the best darn Coon Hound my Mama had ever seen.

So, will God provide? My Grandfather thought for a while that God did not give him what he asked for that fall. Eventually, my Grandparents came to realize that what God provided, was far richer, and more bountiful, than they had imagined.

Old Jake!

Excerpt from Matthew 25 New International Version (NIV)

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me,

Old Jake, a prayer answered, or just a starving hound that appeared from nowhere?

2 very cool stories, sir.

BTW....for a magna-cum-laude one would expect you to be able to stand on your own and defend your position. Instead we get cut-n-paste.....

I'm 70, and have been an atheist for 56 of those years. I've not lived a particularly thrilling life, but have had a few experiences with situations where I though I was probably a goner. So far, no miraculous last-minute conversions.

I feel certain that we live on only in the words and deeds we leave behind, and in the memories of those who knew us, good or bad. And that this is a one-time only performance, not a dress rehearsal.

Beautiful fiction has been written since man first scribbled something that passed for words, and probably even the cave drawings were somewhat embellished accounts of hunts for mastodons and cave bears. It can be emotionally stimulating to expand our universes and enhance our existence through fiction. The problem comes when we can't tell the difference between fiction and fact.

And at some point in our crowded and increasingly interdependent world, we need to make concrete decisions based on fact, rather than wishful thinking.

I do tend to agree with you the coon dogs. There was an old blue tick just down the road when I was a kid that I might have thought capable of Old Jake's wonderful acts of providence, though,.....but no black and tans. 8^)

Russ, I merely point out the reality that faced the Apostles is still just theoretical for the rest of us. Our time will come but until it does, we cannot speak of sacrifice.

For the record, I don't believe the "no atheists in foxholes" argument. I have seen hardship harden too many hearts to believe atheists vanish under fire.

Nice dodge.... In other words "its easier to use anothers work than actually think on my own.

"Tom, sure they were atheists, but they didn't kill in the name of atheism. Atheism isn't a religion."

According to you, an atheist, there is no moral center, no moral absolute.... And yes atheism IS a religion. You are as devout a follower of yours as I am of mine.

"Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot also had noses and ears. Are we to assume that they committed mass murders because they had noses and ears? Of course not, that would be as preposterous as the claim you are making."

Horsesh!t!! One commonality was the destruction of religion. Sound familiar? 100,000,000 died at the hands of the godless. See "no moral absolutes" for further information.

Asking and persuading are two entirely different things.

"Does God let certain people succumb to illness simply because they didn't pray, or weren't prayed for, enough? "

I do not know the answer to that question.

"If God behaves this way, then he is not a perfect, kind, loving, and benevolent being, but rather a malicious and insecure one who enjoys the suffering of those who use reason rather than superstition."

Maliciousness and benevloence can only be derived from a living being, and not from superstition. Thus, Matt Finney, you are once again subject to another paradox.

By the way, when in the Marines, I always qualified on the M-16 and M1911 from Target 13. ( 20 year expert on both, by the way ). No one else seemed to want that target, and the Range Coaches had to forcer people to fire there. I was always on Relay 1. I am not the least bit supersticious about anything. I don't even have a favorite arrow.

A debate on Black and Tans will be for another thread.

;^)

Interesting insight; you seem to be saying that you recognize the futility of trying to change anyone's mind here, hence your reluctance to expend any effort towards that end.

Given this insight most reasonable people would conclude that if this truly represents how you feel than your only purpose behind every "God is a fairy tale" thread you initiate is to be a habitual debater who seeks confrontation.

If this is not the case than it would be reasonable to expect you to expend the effort if, as you yourself have stated on more than one occasion, you do so out of concern for a host of people deluded into following a cult, a fairy-tale and your actions reflect love of your fellow man.

I think you'll find a common thread that runs through many people is that tolerance of hypocrisy will only extend so far. It's well past time for you to stop trying to have it both ways; if you act out of kindness as you state than summon up whatever self-sacrifice is necessary to make your point heard. Put it into your words, share your thoughts and feelings on the subject.

If you feel the effort is futile and not worth your time than find other subjects to initiate threads on that command your full time, attention and commitment.

Put up or shut up.

I'm 70, and have been an atheist for 56 of those years. I've not lived a particularly thrilling life, but have had a few experiences with situations where I though I was probably a goner. So far, no miraculous last-minute conversions.

I feel certain that we live on only in the words and deeds we leave behind, and in the memories of those who knew us, good or bad. And that this is a one-time only performance, not a dress rehearsal.

Beautiful fiction has been written since man first scribbled something that passed for words, and probably even the cave drawings were somewhat embellished accounts of hunts for mastodons and cave bears. It can be emotionally stimulating to expand our universes and enhance our existence through fiction. The problem comes when we can't tell the difference between fiction and fact.

And at some point in our crowded and increasingly interdependent world, we need to make concrete decisions based on fact, rather than wishful thinking.

I do tend to agree with you the coon dogs. There was an old blue tick just down the road when I was a kid that I might have thought capable of Old Jake's wonderful acts of providence,.....but no black and tans. 8^)

You have false hope creep. Never going to happen.

-Atheism and secular humanism are religions that create a vacuum. That vacuum is filled with state power and capricious (relative) morality. Seems to happen with macabre frequency. Not a coincidence. Ergo, the hundreds of millions of dead.

Just based on body count alone, Godless religions are neither logical nor benevolent. If anything, they are the vanguard of death and destruction. History proves this unequivocally, repeatedly. A logical man would not look at history and seek to remove God.

"A lot of members of Bowsite aren't foolish enough to believe that a lack of belief in God (atheism) kills people. THOSE are the ones I'm hoping to reach. They don't need it explained to them."

Never said atheism kills people. I said it's a commonality (being a belief system, not facial features) between the three largest mass murderers in history.

"If I get some time, perhaps I'll get into it later."

My, aren't we condescending.

LOL !

Where did you get your Jefferson quotes, from some atheist website?

Here is one for you:

""I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/thomasjefferson/

Perfect happiness, I believe, was never intended by the Deity to be the lot of one of his creatures in this world; but that he has very much put in our power the nearness of our approaches to it, is what I have steadfastly believed.

THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to John Page, Jul. 15, 1763

There is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose.

THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to John Randolph, Nov. 29, 1775

The most fortunate of us, in our journey through life, frequently meet with calamities and misfortunes which may greatly afflict us; and, to fortify our minds against the attacks of these calamities and misfortunes should be one of the principal studies and endeavors of our lives. The only method of doing this is to assume a perfect resignation to the Divine will, to consider that whatever does happen, must happen; and that, by our uneasiness, we cannot prevent the blow before it does fall, but we may add to its force after it has fallen. These considerations, and others such as these, may enable us in some measure to surmount the difficulties thrown in our way; to bear up with a tolerable degree of patience under the burden of life; and to proceed with a pious and unshaken resignation, till we arrive at our journey's end, when we may deliver up our trust into the hands of Him who gave it, and receive such reward as to him shall seem proportioned to our merit.

THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to John Page, Jul. 15, 1763

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus Himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which He wished any one to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to Himself every human excellence; and believing He never claimed any other."

THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Apr. 21, 1803"

My Dad taught me this lesson on the corruptions of Christianity , with one of many 1 on 1 guided trips to the wood shed, when he found out I was teasing Catholics at grade school for not being able to eat hamburgers on Friday ( yep, I am that old )

Adore God. Reverence and cherish your parents. Love your neighbor as yourself, and your country more than yourself. Be just. Be true. Murmur not at the ways of Providence. So shall the life into which you have entered be the portal to one of eternal and ineffable bliss.

THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Thomas Jefferson Smith, Feb. 21, 1825

Read more at http://www.notable-quotes.com/j/jefferson_thomas_v.html#V8sGGzrJz3lW0hx8.99

BTW, as I often point out, President Th. Jefferson used his own War Dept. for Christian worship. So much for your "Godless country."

I cannot take full credit for that. I used a Black and Tan Coonhound to track those quotes down, as only a cold nosed Black and Tan would be able to find a 200 year old scent trail.

;^)

...........

. . . it's what you do it's who you are . . . . . .