That's an interesting statement. But nothing about intelligent design as described in scripture gives any detail about our DNA, or chemical make up to even begin to understand how we have Developed to this point.
We already know that early man was not as advanced as we are both mentally or physically. So what indication do we have from intelligent design as to how we have achieved so much in such a small fraction of the existence of life?
I guess what I'm asking is, how do we understand it from a standpoint other than what evolutionary science has offered? Just basing everything on faith doesn't qualify as an explanation.
Neither does the Religion that believes two gas molecules collided in space resulting and a "big bang" that led to creation.
Where did those two gas molecules come from ?
Never heard an answer for that - from anyone, any camp, or any Atheist.
So, which is easier to believe, that two gas molecules collided starting creation and evolution, or that there is a divine power?
For me, I know which one is more far fetched.
"So, which is easier to believe, that two gas molecules collided starting creation and evolution, or that there is a divine power"
Where did the ingredients that god used come from? You don't have an answer to that, which makes you just as far fetched as those atheists. At least we have proof that those gas molecules actually exist.
If the higher power didn't need those molecules to build his creation, why did he bother to create them? People like you are so sure that they didn't play a part in our existence but you can't explain why they're present in every aspect of our lives. Please explain that to the far fetched crowd.
Like I've asked a million times, why can't creation and evolution work hand in hand? Why is that concept such a "taboo" suggestion to some people?
Creation Theory
Key word being Theory....
Everybody has one.
Until then it really makes very little sense to waste time talking about it.
I wouldn't belong to any Christian religion that would have me for a member...that's for sure.
Matt Finney you are a tool.
If the only thing in life to look forward to is your twisted view of things I would be looking for a short rope and a tall tree.
Get a grip, I BELIEVE and you can not take that away from me.
Yep. It's called General Relativity.
- If you mean denomination, Jim, I'd suggest you join the one that best appeals and matches your spirit and circumstances. That stated, Jesus never made denominational choice a prerequisite of salvation.
BTW, gravity is a law not merely a theory. That's what happens in science, provable theories become laws. That which is unproven remains theory.
And why does that matter one bit to you? You are a professed Atheist.
If you were willing to accept that a divine creator spoke things into existence, then you wouldn't need to ask where the ingredients came from. The Creator is exactly that. I would argue there is more than enough proof that good exists. If you can look at the vastness yet specific detail to our universe and everything in it, it all points to Creator. I guess if thats so far fetched you can subscribe to the theology that a universe so big and complex just evolved or exploded into existsnce. I do however believe there was a minute when there was nothing but God then our universe began to explode into existsnce. You just believe the explosion was gas, and I believe it was a divine Creator.
You could try and convince us all that your bow just evolved or exploded into existence but we all know how ridiculous that sounds. But proceed with trying to convince us something so much more intricate just happened. I don't undestand how many can grasp at the straw of evolution or big bang yet can't even begin to acknowledge that intelligent design is a possibility. Science has become a religion of it own and if you can't acknowledge that well we all ready know your in denial.
There are several examples in the last 6 months where your "proof" has been found to be wrong or lied about. Otherwise known as Publication Bias.
Man that is a sucky life to always need to see proof before you believe in something.
You would have been the first to stone some of the greatest minds in the world because their thoughts had no proof but their theories were sound.
I thought atheists believe there is no God.
Which is it?
I Am.
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
Why? Who wrote that rule? Some "survival of the fittest" evolutionist?
Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
I'm betting on the rooster.
;-)
LINK- keep in mind that some of us DO aknowledge the possibility of intelligent design and evolution together. Not all of us are so conceited to believe that it's either one way or the other. What I find ironic is that most folks who completely discount a scientific/evolutionary approach claim they don't want or need to know how it happened. I find it hard to believe that someone can claim they honestly have no interest in the truth. Maybe it's pure faith...maybe it's fear. Or maybe some of us are just freaks of nature by being so curious and inquisitive.
I for one enjoy the mystique behind it all because I learn something new everytime this topic comes up. Unfortunately some folks insist on being offended and feel the need to ridicule their opponent to the point of acting like children arguing about santa clause.
When students ask me the big questions, I ask them how they think the world, universe, people (depending on the question) got to be here. I then give them the best answer I can based on their point of view. Just this week, they were shocked to hear that all elements on earth (except Hydrogen) had their origin in a star (if that is the theory of the universe you believe).
When I taught Biology, I always taught the theory of evolution because I was a science teacher, not a religion teacher. Now I teach creativity, thinking, problem solving, research skills, etc.
I'm willing to bet you get some very interesting question from your students. I can't help buy think that some of their questions may cause you to think more about things yourself.
I'm confused by the following: "Just this week, they were shocked to hear that all elements on earth (except Hydrogen) had their origin in a star (if that is the theory of the universe you believe)."
Are you saying you don't believe that theory or you don't think it has an impact on how we were created? I'm just curious because our bodies also contain the elements of the stars. I'm assuming you believe this because of the "Genesis dust if the earth" account rather than an explosive dispersion of those same elements. Does that question make sense or did I twist it into an unrecognizable babbling? Lol! I'm just trying to understand your thought process. It's not that often you reply to me with stories in layman's terms!
I have students who believe in creation and students who do not. I am not going to try to change their minds from what their parents have taught them.
If they want science-based information I am more than glad to help them find it. If they want religion, I refer them to their parents. As stated earlier, I do not see creation as science. Where science and the Bible disagree, I know that the science (or our understanding of scripture) is in error.
Hope that helps. If not, ask again. I tell my students to keep asking until they get their question answered. I know that sometimes what I think they are asking and what they are asking are not the same. (What if there is a number between 9 and 10 and we just don't know it?)
I don't understand that train of thought. Why is it so bad for science and scripture to coincide. No matter how hard you try to separate the two...they go hand in hand! Science is a fact of life. God does not punish us for having science. He created science. Or is science the work of the devil in your eyes?
Science has been responsible for events that some people will call miracles. Is it against the rules for good things to come from scientific research?
I don't mean to blatantly disagree but I'm afraid that's where this is headed.
On the other side of the coin are the evolutionists, some like 70lbdraw on this thread. For them, it's not enough to "agree to disagree". They aren't content until they have insulted you with their belief that you are "ignorant" or not "curious" or "inquisitive" enough to believe the same way they do, the so-called scientific "truth" (that is always changing). It's kind of like the hard core gay rights nuts, it's not enough for one to have a Libertarian view of they can act however they want in the privacy of their own bedroom. No, they're not satisfied until you AGREE with their lifestyle and APPROVE of it. And they will force it down your throat until you do. So many evolutionists are the same way. They can't allow you to disagree with their way of thinking. They're RIGHT and you're WRONG and they won't quit telling you that until you agree with them that you're wrong.
Funny.
"Scientists admit when they don't know something."
-The former may explain how an atheist zealot can make such an inane statement as the latter. But I would not project that on all people.
Matt, the rest of your post reveals only that your understanding of life is extremely superficial. It has to be to hold your world view.
Science is obviously correct is some things. Science is a human response to creation in an attempt to understand it (if it is honest science). Do not interpret this to say that I believe only Christians can be honest scientists!
I see religion similarly. Religion is a human response to both scripture and the created world. Sometimes it is right and sometimes it is not. Sometimes it is honest and sometimes it is not.
70, the Word of God is the authority. I refuse to put science equal to it. They can work together as long as it is understood who is the ultimate authority and arbiter.
I have loved science from before I was a Christian and still do. I appreciate that our lives are much better due to science. You have seen me defend science many times on this site. I just know that science can be very wrong some times.
We already know that early man was not as advanced as we are both mentally or physically. So what indication do we have from intelligent design as to how we have achieved so much in such a small fraction of the existence of life?
I guess what I'm asking is, how do we understand it from a standpoint other than what evolutionary science has offered? Just basing everything on faith doesn't qualify as an explanation.
Actually the Bible does say that God formed man out of the dust of the earth and that from the dust we are formed and to the dust we return. Then He breathed the breath of life, Neshama, or inspiration of God into the man and man became a living soul.
This amounts to a composition of the chemicals and minerals of the earth of which God made and then made man from that same atomic and chemical composition. Man is the creation that God actually formed with his hands and then spoke life into. All the other creation was spoken into existence. God said and it happened. But man is formed in the image of God and is very complex.
Doe we already know about early man? What we really see is civilazations that were way advanced, Incas. Mayas,. Egyptins, Abysinians plus many ruins and remains from far earlier than ever thought that did things we cannot even accomplish today. Stones cut as by machine and odd shaped but perfectly fit in ways we cannot duplicate. Stones that weigh hundreds of tons that modern cranes cannot lift yet set on cliff faces that no machinery can reach. My take is the we don't know as much as we think we do.
You aske how can we understand it except by evolutionary science? My answer is that perhaps instead of man evolving we may be devolving from the time of Babel. The answer is putting God in His place as one with power to speak into existence and with no limitations. We should do this instead of denying God's power and ability and existence instead of relying on and answer from the self taught intellect of mankind. Rockets blow up , medicine fails , science changes but God is faithful , real , and never changes or fails. God bless, Steve
AMEN !
Of late, it has been the Atheists that have shown the most intolerance. Specifically, Matt Finney, has shown the most absolute hatred of all things Christian.
Since I have been on Bowsite since 2007, not one thread has been started by Christians, denouncing Atheists. The same cannot be said visa versa.
This thread was posted about an Atheists viewpoint on intelligent design. It quickly went south, by the statements of Atheists/Agnostics, arguing with one of their own, even.
Look back, you can even find the annual "Sixby" thread where he was challenged, out of the blue, due to his faith.
Not to be disheartened, Sixby is filled with the Holy Spirit, and can handle anything thrown his way. His responses are always based on the Bible, and said with love, not hatred.
Those are the indisputable facts. That is his testimony through action and love.
Challenege him if ya want, but take note: you are challenging more than just Sixby.
He is packing the "Gospel Guns", so be forewarned.
So you're telling me I'm a bad person for being a Christian? I think you're a pi$$ poor excuse for a human being. I also believe you're so stupid you don't even know or understand what you're saying.
Have you not heard of Jesus? Or, have you heard of Jesus and are just in denial?
Tony,you've never read a thread started by two feathers have you?!? Lol!
Steve, that is my point. It's obvious we are made from the dust of the earth which in turn is the dust of the universe. My issue has always been in the literal interpretation of the book of genesis. I dont disagree about what we are made of, I disagree about the actual process that took place when we were created.
"My answer is that perhaps instead of man evolving we may be devolving from the time of Babel."
That is a very interesting point! I've never really pondered that thought. I'm so caught up in technological advancement that I don't consider how man succeeded with his bare hands, creativity, and faith, but with very little in the way of material tools. I find it difficult to believe that god would allow us to destroy ourselves, but I see it on a daily basis. Our learning ability has grown like wildfire in the recent years and we only use about 10% of our brains capacity. I can't help but wonder if god created us that way for a reason, or if there is a larger plan in store. Kinda like building a large office complex in anticipation of future growth. But as you point out, why would we be devolving from our original design?
Where is the fine line between evolving/devolving and adapting/taking the easy road? Either way you look at it you have to admit that we have doing one or the other if not both since our creation. Again I think it's a matter of perception because none of us sees it exactly the same way as the other guy.
If you're old enough to act so Frickin ignorant, you're not young enough to be corrupted by the likes of this crowd.
Step on too many dicks around here and you'll wind up with two broken ankles!! Lol!
RMWbowman, I suggest you sue the public education system where you grew up. They did not teach you a damn thing.
You are more than welcome to leave this site anytime you want.
I didn't elect RMWbowman as the spokesman for his generation. He elected himself by his own statements in his first Troll post.
Is that all you got, Matt? Personal attacks when your own arguments are baseless and proven in error?
Maybe you should "ax" RMWbowman directly, instead of "axing" me.
I think of the proper use of grammar the way I view our road system. Pavement, signs, intersections, etc. exist to effectively get from point A to point B. Attempting to read anything without punctuation is like following a car who pretends stoplights do not apply to them. No one will follow that car past the first red light.
As for the language, dropping the "f" bomb and other debasing language are a violation of forum rules and will get your posts or you booted.
Now, the above is not for my benefit but yours. If you want people to consider your thoughts - at all - the burden to make cogent points is on you. If you want to be read, you will not violate the rules and get your posts removed.
To limit "tweets" for example to a certain number of characters has fostered truncatation of words to the point where the English language should show up on the endangered species list.
Text messaging has certainly aided the decline in basic communication skills as well.
FYI Matt, my oldest child has been a teacher in the Boston public school system for the past 3 years now and sees this degradation on a daily basis. Commiserating with her peers she learned this was far from an isolated phenomenon; it became clear the problem has become endemic.
Now there is a filthy mouth new comer to the CF.
We however keep devolving...8^(
"No one said all religion is bad.always the extreme!"
TSI, better read the posts before you post.
Sounds like something you would say to your kids MF.
That's one reason your ego is abraded by us Matt, you are so zealously religious , you cannot be honest.
Spike...sorry your thread got trashed. There are some of us here that try to respect another mans topic and attempt to keep a civil and open debate. Unfortunately, it's become a waste of time to have that type of conversation here anymore.
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
It is not mine to decide when the horse is dead, tru.
2. Some have stated that Christianity is a religion. It is not. Christianity is a relationship of an individual formed by a spiritual change called being born again of the Spirit of God. This may happen in either organized religious organizations within Christianity but also outside of any organization . Real Christians all believe in Universal Christianity that is composed of all those individuals within the body of Christ by the indwelling of His holy spirit received upon the born again experience wherin God's spirit witnesses with our spirits that we are His. This is a work of God and not of man and therefor is not of any organization of man either outside of Christianity or within Organized Christianity. Our allegiance is not to a church but to the body of Christ (real church) and to Jesus who is God come in the flesh./ We do not enforce or attempt to enforce our faith or belief upon anyone by any means as this would be useless since we know that it takes a relationship with Christ that is between the individual and God.
This does not mean that organizations under the guise of Christianity have not done so but it does mean that Christianity did not do so and the Bible , contrary to the Koran , does not teach us to do so.
Scripturally I do believe that man is devolving in spite of great tech advances, medicinal and mechanical advances/ The scripture addresses this as evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse. Men shall call evil good and good evil. Justice has fallen in the streets. Men having great pleasure in doing evil and loving those that do so. Ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. God bless, Steve
God bless, Steve
-Robert Wilensky Reader's Digest
I'd say that point applies to both camps in the debate.
I'm a more patient atheist myself. I would like to see those who would attempt to explain the thoughts and moral attributes of atheists to at least learn how to spell the word first. It's a small step.
I think the overpopulation problem is the most urgent problem the world faces. I was surprised to hear just the other day that the Pope is now telling the teeming multitudes that they are no longer required to "breed like rabbits". If the major religions can finally end the War of the Wombs among the competing faiths, there is increased hope for us to last long enough for a peaceful resolution to our other differences.
