I'd be interested in your thoughts re. a potentially dangerous situation I faced yesterday just as I was finishing shooting my bow in my backyard.
I was in my backyard when, at approximately 4:30 PM, I saw a stranger in my backyard walking towards me. I immediately asked him who he was and why he was on my property. He kept walking towards me and said something that made he think he was selling something.
I asked him the questions again and again did not get a straight answer. He had entered my backyard through a closed gate. I told him he was trespassing and asked him to please leave. He did not.
I again told him to leave, told him he was on my property without my permission and if he did not leave immediately I would call the police. He still would not leave. He said he'd seen me through the windows when he had gone to the front door and saw I was in the backyard.
I again ordered him to leave as I walked towards the back door to my home. Yet again, he did not and then he played the Race Card, yelling at me that I'd only said I was going to call the police because he was black.
That REALLY pissed me off, but I held it in and simply said, "Don't give me that $hit! I'll call the police because you're trespassing and refuse to leave."
As I entered my house, it appeared he might follow me inside, but fortunately he did not. I quickly locked the door, then grabbed a pistol in case he tried to break in.
He then left, going to a neighbor's house, then other houses on our court. Later in the day, a neighbor told my wife he'd been to their house selling magazines and had told them I'd bought some from him.
You think and maybe even mentally rehearse about how you'll respond in various situations, but until you actually get in one, it's all new.
What would you guys have done differently?
Ask him, "are you feeling lucky"?
I highly doubt he'll be back on our street but he might well be back in our development.
I am, however, packing my Kimber .45 ACP today, even at home.
Kyle exercised restraint, and handled it well. Yes, the guy could have surged and attacked him, but he made no physically hostile move.
The one flaw is not having a plan for when an intruder is in the backyard. As far as how it was handled under the given facts, it was handled well.
Now if the wife was not home, who knows what I would have done.
Hopefully, I would have remained as calm as you, and not killed him.
Two weeks ago I had to clear my property of drunken teenagers at 2 AM. THe Dog woke us up, and the wife made me investigate, even though the alarm had not went off. I figured she was barking at deer.
I had two friends with me, Smith and Wesson. Glad the teenagers sobered up and left. Shoulda seen the looks on their face when they saw my friends. Glad my friends did not get involved.
Truthfully, ya never know what you would do until you have to cross that bridge.
When my family's facing a possible threat then I I take no chances.
Good idea on carrying now Kyle.
Sheriff should check that out. Get names.
A tough arguement to win- use of lethal force for trespassing.
Living where I live, I gotta say that I doubt it. That is a fairly frequent ruse used by burglars around here. Ring the front doorbell and knock, then swing around to the back. If no one answers a knock at the back door either, go through the door.
He may not have seen you at first. He may have been testing you. He may have been a pushy door to door magazine salesman breaking protocol and walking around back.
Especially because he did not listen to your direction until the fourth time, with you going into the house, I would make sure that you and your neighbors keep your eyes open.
My wife was at the dentist, so I was not as aggressive as I might have been had she been home.
I was thinking, 'Ask him to leave. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Retreat is not required but is the preferred option. A bow is not a .45 ACP."
I really don't think the guy was scoping the neighborhood. This is a pretty upscale area of town with very little crime. In addition, the guy was visible as all get out to everyone on our court.
My office is in my home and overlooks the street. Any time I see someone I do not recognize walking up our sidewalk to the front door, the .45 Kimber goes into my back pocket.
I had an incident about a year and a half ago where a 20 something year old woman knocked on the door early one morning. She was visibly shaken and my first thought was that she had been in a wreck, as I live on a rural stretch of highway and my house is the last house before getting to a 3-4 mile stretch of USFS land.
As I opened the door, I saw her boyfriend standing in the yard and realized that this was a domestic dispute and that he was threatening her. I told him he was on my property and needed to leave. She had her cell phone in her hand and I told her to call 911.
The guy became pretty belligerent and said he would not leave without her and started toward her/us.
At that point, I told her to go inside the house and closed the door behind us.
About that time it dawned on me that my .45 was locked in the truck. I had returned from a trip about midnight the night before and had forgotten to take it out of the truck. I went to get my 870 from another room.
During that incident, there was about a 15-20 second span of time where I really felt I was going to have to shoot the guy, had he persisted and managed to get in the house. Thankfully, I guess he figured that opening a closed door in that situation would not have ended well for him and he decided to leave.
I agree though, you can think these things through and imagine what might happen and what you would do, but you truly don't know until you are faced with it.
On a positive note, I haven't forgotten to bring my .45 in the house since then :-)
TROLL!
The Superintendent of the Briarcliff Manor School District can expect a phone call from me in the morning.
Yesterday a police helicopter spend about an hour circling over my woods and my neighbor's woods. A Hispanic speaking guy ran a stop sign and broad sided a Ford pick up. The car he was driving had Tennessee tags and he jumped out and ran. I saw a game warden friend run up my neighbor's lane really fast. the warden has a 4X4 truck and was all over the fields. I don't think they caught the guy and there were 8 cop cars and two game warden vehicles looking for him. When I see one of them I am going to ask them where the K 9 guys were. There was snow on the ground and you would think they could have tracked him.
Confusing being prudent with being paranoid.
I'm pretty sure that I wasn't paranoid when I got into an altercation with four guys in a grocery store because I spoke up when they were intimidating one of the middle aged women working at the store. Wasn't paranoid when dealing with a serial killer that worked for a customer. Wasn't paranoid when a guy was climbing in my female neighbor's window in a "nice neighborhood".
Bad guys don't wear black hats. They can't reliably be identified by just looking at them. If that were true, the mother of my god daughter might not have been brutally raped with her daughter in the same bed.
Someone being where he shouldn't be and ignoring demands to leave definitely calls for prudence. No one panicked there. No one there is paranoid.
I had no interest in shooting, esp. with a bow with field points and with my firearms in the house. I didn't perceive him to be dangerous, only as an overly aggressive and annoying salesman.
I was certainly concerned, but not to the point I would have shot him in the yard unless he'd chosen to escalate.
OTOH, if he'd followed me into my home, he'd be in the morgue now.
Kyle instructing him to leave, moving into the house and preparing to defend himself, if necessary was spot on.
My only suggestion would have been to call the police at that time to report an unusual encounter on his property. If the guy was a bad guy, it would put him on notice that the neighborhood is vigilant. If he was just a magazine salesman, it would put him on notice that entering someone's backyard creates a situation that is not conducive to sales. If he wants to cry racism, too bad.
My whitetail hunting buddy is a black police officer. If he was unarmed in his back yard, he would react the same way.
*Edited to remove ambiguity of my comment : ( up and )
You demonstrated great restraint. When you tell somebody 3 times to leave, they had better leave. I cannot say what I would have done in your situation. Since you and your family are safe, you made the right decisions. Most important.
I only posted I asked him to leave three times for brevity. In reality, it was more like ten times.
As for Monday morning quarterbacking, after the first warning to leave, I would have taken a pic of him with my cell phone. The only down side is, if he was a loon, that may have rapidly escalated the situation.
I never carry my phone or even turn on my cell phone unless I'm traveling.
Good idea, however.
Now if I can just get that old Doors music out of my head. Jim keeps crooning "People are strange"
Most likely he was casing your house for burglary, I'd be on full watch because of this incident. For sure carry while on property and make sure the neighbors are on watch.
My pistol was in my home office. Close, but not within arm's reach, so that was not the best option at the time
My neighbor's dog had one and someone driving by called 911!
At least that is one of my analyzed scenarios whether it goes down like that is gladly yet to be determined....
In our city, a peddler's license is required. If someone comes to my door and don't have this, they get a picture taken and a call to the city/police/company.
Our neighborhood has had the peddlers who pretend to sell something and then return at night to break into cars/garages.
I live on 5 acres and I have a horse barn that's about 40 yards from my house. Both the house and barn are about in the middle of the 5 acres. If someone's hiding in my barn I consider that like being in my home and I will act accordingly.
I work for myself and I as part of what I do I have to meet with people at their homes and if I knock on the front door and no one answers I will NOT go into the back yard to knock on the back door unless the person has instructed me to do so. That's getting a bit to invasive, not to mention the dog factor!
I was thinking the same thing. Where/Why do Blacks get the mindset they are free to do anything they want? If I walked into somebodies backyard who I didn't know unannounced, then was told to leave. I would feel foolish. Then I would leave. This black person had no consideration for another person's privacy. No respect for another person's home.
Thats because we are socially engineered to keep giving them passes for their boorish behaviors. Lots of good folks of every creed, color and religion, but as straight, white caucasions, we're at that point where society expects us to absorb some punishment from our attackers before we retaliate.
Kyle did the best thing at the time, IMHO. Every bullet comes with a lawyer...if the perp is a supposed "minority" you can expect a legion of them and the media to make your life a living hell.
I have a CCW, and like a lot of people, I never plan to shoot someone, but I "what if" situations a lot. Visualize.
We moved into our house we have now about a 1.5 years ago. The very first night we were there, we had a drunk intruder (a young twenty something woman) just come wandering in off the dark street saying "I need to use your bathroom" and started taking off her shoes. I wasn't there at that time but my wife and a friend helping her unpack was.
My wife was right there in her face telling her to get her ass out NOW and called 911. There were some deputies out where we live at the time because of someone else calling the cops saying there was this drunk female trying to get into houses. They caught her right down the street. She was strung out on dope and booze.
But yeah, keep a weapon handy and a phone. It only takes an unlocked door or gate to turn life around.
I'm glad that a potentially hazardous situation turned out okay for you. It must have been very disconcerting to have that individual refuse to respond to your demands to leave the property. Especially since he accessed your property through a closed gate - which to me is the same as opening and walking through a closed door of your home.
Quite honestly, I don't know how I would have reacted - most likely very similarly to what you did. As Owl mentioned, without being there to get "feedback" like body language, eye contact, etc. it's a really tough call.
I will say that the only thing that I most likely would have done differently would be to lead the guy away from my house rather than toward it. No stranger who comes to my home unannounced is met at the door. If they come to the front door, (which is normal) I exit one of our back doors and meet them in my front yard, more or less forcing them to get off of my porch and meet me in the yard. And then I casually walk to the driveway and toward the street. If they follow me, I figure them to be pretty harmless. If they stand their ground or seem to not want to follow me away from the house, I take that as a hint that something may not be on the up-and-up. That's when I make sure that who ever it is sees Max standing on the back stoop by looking at the dog and calling to him.
I don't know why, but I've always treated unannounced strangers to my home this way. I don't pull a Clint Eastwood "get off my lawn" bit on them, but I kind of obviously let them know that being on my porch or even on my sidewalk isn't where I want them to be.
I'm glad it all turned out okay though.
U need a "clean" gun to plant on the bullet ridden body. Sorry but my enclosed backyard and I've warned u, that's a fail on ur part.
I do agree that he is casing the neighborhood and will be back.
U need a "clean" gun to plant on the bullet ridden body. Sorry but my enclosed backyard and I've warned u, that's a fail on ur part.
I do agree that he is casing the neighborhood and will be back.
he he he
;-)
But I got tired of having to hose off all the kiddie poop from the porch steps and picking up shoes that the kids ran out of. LOL!!!
One particular young man about 18-22 was bent over the curb with a can of spray paint do his thing. He was so engrossed, I was able to walk right up behind him and ask, "What the hell do you think you're doing?" He jumped about 3 feet in the air from his full crouch.
When he landed and started breathing again, He said, "I'm taggin de curb, man."
After I told him to go tag the curb in front of HIS house and leave mine alone, he began to dance and fidgit and kept asking if I thought I was some sort of tough guy. I responded by inviting him to my front door where I instructed him to wait "... while I go inside to get something that will impress you."
I came back with my Colt 1911in my hand and asked him what he thought. He immediately started backing toward the street, all the while making threats about getting a bunch of his vatos. They were going to come and burn me out.
I responded with, "I'll be standing right here when you get back. As he made it to the street, his last remark was that they'd get me and in true wild west tradition, I told him that his vatos might indeed get me but that he would never see it because I'd put the first shot right between his eyes.
I saw him several times over the next few years (but never a single vato) and he was always respectful, smiling and always addressed me as sir.
Sometimes you just have to stand up for yourself and let them know you will not take any crap. :o)
PS I told this story to a local cop once and was informed that it was technically against the law to "display" a firearm in such instances. I could have been charged with making a threat. As if telling me I was about to be burned NOT was not a threat.
I rarely ever use my cell phone unless I'm traveling. So to take the guy's picture or call the police from the yard were not options, as my cell phone was in the house.
I called the guy who's given me my CCW classes and left him a message to call me back. He's an excellent CCW instructor and a retired Reno police officer. I'll be interested in what he has to say.
Today I'll do a little detective work. As the guy was wearing an ID, if he was indeed just selling magazines, there may be a way to track down the name of the company he works for.
I know, I know.............
he he he
:-)
To end this rude intrusive behavior you must find the Head (supervisor) and go ISIS on him..... Capture your sales rep and secure him with duct tape and wire ties. You've already prepared ..a trip to Home depot or Fleet Farm...Purchase the afore mentioned duct tape and wire ties... also Cattle Prod (genital stimulation), Dewalt Cordless Drill (ankle and knee joint irrigation) large board and gallon jugs of water (obvious).
He'll talk and tell you where the van is. Roll him down into the ravine in back of yard... coyotes, vultures and Bald Eagles (national bird.. a wonderful scavenger in it's own right) will make short work of the remains (evidence)
Then deal with Mr. Big..the "supervisor"... end of your ordeal..
Of course he may be a spook (a real one, ex SEAL and CIA operative, not the racial kind)...in that case your troubles are only beginning. Maybe in that event it'll be like bengahzi and they'll cut their losses and write him off.. Hope, hope..
Glad to be of help Kyle....
Good advice!
If you dump some guy, unless it's the videotaped armed robbery in a gas station, or something similar that you thwart, you could easily be charged with a crime. You'll tell story A, and he will, or some witness who may or may not be telling the truth, will tell story b.
So, you could be in the right, and out $50,000 or more in legal fees. Ask George Zimmerman how that works. It's not enough to just be in the right. You have to also be cautious enough to avoid being criminally charged.
OK, will sound like a liberal here, but protecting my wife and myself comes first, property second. protecting us also means financially so I am not going to do something stupid with false bravado that would end up most likely in court, civil or criminal, even with a high probability of winning.
Further, I think taking a life is a serious action not to be taken lightly.
Robin and I have done some training, preparation and regular rehearsal for "events" that in all likelihood will never happen, but better to be prepared than...
We have practiced 'evade and barricade' with maintaining the ability to call law enforcement immediately after making ourselves prepared for any threatening advance.
Some good, inexpensive reading from books available at WM like one written about self defense from Rob Pincus? Good initial start to get one thinking what they should do in further preparing for an unthinkable.
Good discussion Kyle. I would recommend to those posting they would shoot to kill or something similar, even in fun, to delete those comments. Even where Castle Doctrine applies.
I'm soooo screwed....
However, he did say I probably should have called the sheriff's office right away rather than waiting until the next morning. He said there are teams of these guys that move from city to city, hitting neighborhoods with their scams, then moving on.
He also said Nevada law considers a guy entering your backyard thru a gated fence without permission the same as if he'd entered your home.
All Ya'll, please keep reminding me not to piss him off.
;^)
I researched his handle and it turned up not one single post.
Good luck to all this year in everything you do !
That's the way it was until this public school district employee showed up here.
Go take a look. I put it back up.
It looked a lot like something HoytVector wrote on this same thread, which put me on alert. Then when I couldn't find any history in my user handle search, I removed him
:)
Even at 66, I have better cardio, leg strength, and endurance than 99% of the guys half my age. But upper body strength.......yeah, right! LOL
Don't make me stop this car!!! ;^)