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My uncle retired because he got old. My cousin quit to become an elementary school teacher and my other cousin we don't talk about.

But their message is all the same. Things have changed. And not for the good.

You are great at accusing the same old actors, but your response is never a surprise either.

I certainly do not defend anyone not doing their job in any profession. Just ask my peers, I am outspoken about things like tenure.

LEOs are different though in that the power they wield potentially can have major impacts on individuals with regards to one thing more important than maybe any other-freedom. And just like the teaching profession, even though the bad actors are the minority, there are too many of them and We must remain vigilant.

But go ahead, attack me again for being a cop basher because that is what your pattern is.

Ignore the basis for this thread and the sky is always falling blather. Look at the source!

Smart in class but dumb on the bus seems to be the criteria nowadays.

I teach college so taking advantage of kids is more likely to be inappropriate relationships. There is a reason the staff respects me. I lead by example. It is repulsive when a professor uses their position for "favors" from a student of the opposite gender. They should be terminated immediately and never allowed to teach again. Swift, firm justice. And I don't pretend it doesn't happen, though thankfully due to higher standards today it is becoming less common, and less accepted!

So is your logic that since there is a higher frequency of bad behavior in teaching it is some how unfair to criticize bad LEO behavior? You are proof why so many Americans today just don't trust cops. Bad is bad, it happens in every position. It does not make the profession bad, just the bad actor. All of it should be exposed.

It is amazing how many criticize the government, yet defend LEOs every chance they get. Start with the AG and try and defend LE today to many of us- you will stand alone.

I will wait for your typical umpteen posts in response.

And we wonder why we have trouble getting good candidates.

You should have investigated a little more. I have posted on some "education" threads. I think one of my comments was that colleges can and must do better providing skills actually needed in a changing market place.

FYI, that is what I belive LE and education share in common. Both professions are being subjected to major upheavals-education because of economic structural changes, LE because of changing public attitudes.

Yes, you may think you are more subtle about your attacks, but throw a grenade in my wheel housec and I'll toss it back:)

I met a guy, a friend of a friend's roommate, who was going through the probationary period after the academy. He was a megalomaniacal punk, bordering on sociopath. I cringed when I thought about this guy having a badge on the street. He got weeded out. It restored a little bit of faith in the system.

There's good, there's bad, there's in between. I think it's always been that way and it always will be.

What amazes me is the way people conduct themselves with cops. My limited exposure blows me away. I have a hard time believing that people would lip off with this kind of regularity twenty or thirty years ago.

I could never do the job.

X a million.... I don't have the guard dog makeup... too much wolf maybe... I'd be a bad cop.

GREAT video, mouse.

They couldn't pay me enough...not NEAR enough!

You never miss attacking everyone who criticizes LE on the CF. Usually you are among the first to do so. Why the need to constantly kiss butt?

And you are a liar or a smuck, probably both. I have not posted on every LE thread. In fact my first post on this one challenged the premise. I did so because IMO the OP seems to more often than not see only one side to these situations. But you are so busy attacking everyone who has ever said one wrong word about LE you just lump all of them together.

Heck, this is fun. Just say stuff like you that has nothing to do with the truth:) of course cops are allowed to lie for the greater good, but certainly teachers must be held to a higher standard lest we destroy society.

There are a lot of jobs many of us could not do or are not qualified for.

I did criminal defense for about ten years. Ran into some dishonest cops. Got one fired from a metro PD, for good reason.

Ran into some honest cops, and befriended many of them. I like the true professionals a lot.

And yes, bad teachers and bad cops, because of the trust we are supposed to have in them, we must have less tolerance for than say a terrible plumber.

And I will be there on every thread you don your cheerleading outfit to bash someone who is trying to make a valid point about LE gone wrong. Some have had bad experiences with LEOs and you pick at their wounds as well. I documented mine here with the trooper who gave my wife two tickets after hitting a deer because I refused to take her back to the scene. Some times a cop can exercise poor judgment, and no I am not going to just accept the consequences of that punk azz judgment just because he thinks his authority should not be questioned. Google the thread 'late night call from sheriff'.

And students are a pleasure to work with, just like most of the population they are excellent. Unlike some cops like you, my focus is on the good ones. If you guys don't like the job, get out of it!

You continue to be trublu I will continue to be a true American.

Can't resist responding I am sure. Happy to entertain you Spike:)

The LEO's that I know well and those that I know peripherally are honorable guys who work hard to do a difficult job while enduring all kinds of abuse and frustrations. Here in Crook County, IL, the first charge dropped is usually aggravated assault and battery of a police officer. It's a bargaining chip.

No one has asked, but I'll sum up what I think is the root of the problem with LEO's.

They spend so much time dealing with the turds of society and then...pop culture and YouTube seem to be emboldening all kinds of people to mouth off during any encounter with LEO's. They spend all day seeing people at their worst. That guy at church, the usher? He's a registered sex offender. The guy at the end of your block? He beats his wife and kids. You pull over a college kid and he's a mouthy, condescending jagoff. The personal banker? He's cruising hookers on the weekend.

The "Us vs Them" mentality gets reinforced.

Even pretty good cops, who lament the "Snitches get stitches" and its effect on the 'hood, refrain from speaking against cops that they know are problematic.

LEO's need to do a better job of policing their own. There are some bad ones in the Chicago Metro Area.

But regular, decent people need to have some interactions with cops other than speeding tickets. Regular people need to see some of what LEO's deal with on a daily basis and cops need to be reminded that not everyone is part of "Them".

I challenge any of the guys who rail against cops to do a night's ride along in an urban area. I guarantee that your opinion will go through a paradigm shift.

You don't have to become a groupie and start buying the department coffee and donuts, but I bet you'll thank them for the job that they do. And these guys are usually doing a thankless job.

For anyone who thinks that there aren't problems with the way LEO's police themselves, read the link. He became the deputy chief of the department. Lots of cops knew he was a problem before it blew up.

Like anything else, it's a complicated problem. Blanket statements and screaming epithets at one another won't help anything.

I agree, excellent post! The article fortunately is representative of only the small minority of LEO behavior. That being said though, there is still too much of it. Google 'man drowned in police custody in MO'. Google the thread I started just a short while back about the 'ACLU gets one right'.

Too many people only have interactions with LEOs because of traffic violations, yet this is brought on them by the system we have. IMO, a healthy skepticism of government, whether in education, DOJ, FDA, SEC, EPA etc.. is warranted. That does not mean jumping to conclusions before satisfactory evidence though.

I apologize for taking some of my frustrations out on this thread. When I hear people speak of revolutions, yet daily I witness folks who are too afraid to just stand up and make public poor behavior like intimidation, my emotion shows. If we as a people would professionally refuse to just accept some of this, I think our government would perform with a higher level of objectivity and common sense. We don't need a revolution, we need people to speak out and refuse to be silenced because of fear they will be criticized. JMHO, but I believe our history is full of examples where people did just that and positive change happened.

And FTR, I have the privilege of assisting instruct many of our vets, many permanently disfigured/disabled. Mental scars for sure as well. I guess I have a tough time believing small town local cops have went through similar stress in their job. And I have yet to hear one vet complain.

I have lived a blessed life. I have never seen anything tough, or have ever been in combat. I often feel guilty about that, and even question God as to why. Certainly I will not back down from someone who attacks me for standing up in a manner that matters-that is the least I can do to say thank you for those who gave their lives for this great country! And standing up when LEOs abuse their power matters!!

That is exactly what 3 of us did with the phone call referenced.

So as the Louisville Courier-Journal reports, Gregory told Ford, "good we're going to do this together," and got out of the car, took Ford's hand and walked with her.

On another note, the story about the drowning victim is about procedures IMO. The investigation into this was closed with no wrong doing as the conclusion until a couple and their son who witnessed came forward because as the news stated they were tired of the inaccuracies about what they witnessed. So the investigation was re-opened.

While I do not have much faith in the current AG, I do agree that cases involving a perp's death should be investigated by someone other than the local DA.

Even if the conclusion was this drunk was the cause, society should still expect the police to have proper training such as the appropriate life vest so these types of situations can be avoided.

Yes, I believe these two stories need to be mentioned side by side. Both stories should be told. There is good and bad, but ignoring problems that may cause people to lose their life because we fear being labeled a cop basher is unacceptable in a free society.

I for one am interested in our elected officials working to make our criminal justice system more effective. Issues like the militarization of small police departments should be investigated. IMO, this goes to the heart of a government by the people for the people.

I was working in North Minneapolis which at the time was I believe 98% minorities mostly black, and the 4th pct was something like the same percentage white officers. For better or worse there were guys in that pct who would have given their lives protecting the people in the 4th, and there were guys in that pct who spewed racial slurs all the time. It is that way in any occupation guys.

What I don't understand is why on earth does everyone who isn't a law enforcement officer look at those who are and expect them to be superhuman? My best friend is a state trooper. You have no idea in the past 14 years how many dead infants he has had to check for signs of life because some drunk guy crossed the centerline, and by the way, the drunk guy got a broken nose when his face hit the windshield- that's it. He gets to go home, another family has to bury their child and will never fully recover. His day is made up of 11 hours of pure boredom and pulling guys over for speeding only to be lied to over and over and asked is he has anything better to do, and one hour or less of pure panic as he helps look for the 4 year old who wandered into the woods by his house, pulls a dead body from a burning vehicle, etc.

I cant tell you how many times he told me he had enough. He is married, has one son and a step-son and step-daughter, and is a great guy. Do you think it is easy for him to stand over a dead child and protect the scene because its raining? Im not sure why he goes back, im really not. As a state trooper here in mn with overtime he takes in about $75-80k- if he has a good overtime year. I promise you knowing this guy for 18 years he is worth a heck of a lot more than that!

I don't think the majority of people on this site are bad guys, but some of you are pretty ignorant in the ways of the world. You have been watching too many movies or something cause these guys are your neighbors, they are ordinary men and women with extraordinary careers. They didn't ask to be looked at as a hero as they pull your kid from a fiery wreck, but when they do you look at them as such. They also sure as heck never asked to be looked at as scum as they pull your 18 year old son from your basement with a warrant because he never showed up for his court appearance for that drunk driving incident, but you will. You will also fail to explain to your other younger kids that their older brother made a mistake and he has to pay for it, so those kids will go on viewing all cops as bad guys who take their brother away for no reason.

The vast majority of Americans would never have a bad memory of the police if they minded their own business and lived within the law. It would also help if people went back to teaching their kids some morals and right from wrong. it isn't that hard. Break the law and its their job to confront you about it.

Now that said, sure there are bad cops out there, but there are bad teachers, bad refuse collectors, bad welders, bad school bus drivers, bad pest control men, and bad news anchors- it is the way it is guys.

I for one am very thankful that there are guys out there who are willing to do the job and most of them are just as sick with the bad seeds as we are.

michael

And what officers have to see or do does not excuse poor conduct, period. No ifs, ands or buts. We don't expect them to be super human. I expect them to make mistakes, but to be willing to learn from those mistakes and improve.

I was raised to always honor, trust and respect the police. I did until the two events I documented here. I don't care if you agree or not, I am sure they get the message. I will not be intimidated and you will not prevent me from pursuing my right to life, liberty and happiness.

I don't have to justify squat to them or you. I am not a criminal. I am a regular U.S. citizen who stood silently for long enough. Those of you who always just defend police, IMO must be cowards. It was not easy to stand up to the behavior we were subjected to. No, it was not serious, but it certainly was not in line with what our Constitution and Founding Fathers guarantee. That guarantee is only as good as our willingness and courage to enforce it!

Their actions were wrong. Whatever they have experienced in their careers does not justify their behavior. No one gets a free pass, and again, I am a U.S. citizen and that in itself gives me the right to stand up to this behavior. I don't have to be perfect, or meet their or your standards. Find anywhere in the Constitution that says otherwise. If you want to ignore it, then don't complain when the results are not what we desire in a free society.

And please, quit comparing other professions being similar to LE. I cannot interfere with anyone's freedom. They are not even close.

The reason there are so many threads about this is because of the growing unease, which is always there, between the citizens and those who can separate us from freedom. I ask why is zero tolerance acceptable for bad guys, but not for LE. Double standards? I think so!

one of the biggest misconceptions related to the suicide rates of military members recently is that they are dramatically increasing more than any other group of people. They are increasing but so is the suicide rate among average Americans at almost the same exact rate.

Yes every loss is tragic but it does no good to mislead anything. I'm not saying that you are misleading anyone, but I believe you might not have all the facts.

And you or people like you can interfere with my freedoms. That's why we have police. Just like you a cop can't just arbitrarily interfere with my rights as an American Citizen, and when and if they do there are repercussions

Michael

Appreciate your thoughtful dialogue. I do disagree that the suicide rate of both groups is growing at the same rate, and would also believe the causes are different. The rate with troops is definitely "occupationally" related. They are also probably given more attention than an average citizen, we are aware of their challenges and so are looking to help prevent it. There would most likely have been more suicides if not for those attempts at prevention. And, we still need to do much better. According to reports the hotline for them has left numerous individuals on "permanent" hold. Terrible!

SA, I don't care whether or not someone like you I don't know likes or trusts me. How does that effect my life. Are you still in high school? Life is not a popularity contest. Actually, folks like you who only see one side of an issue like this and make public statements like yours, I think are probably trying to hide something.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or anything like that but you are 100 percent wrong. You can disagree with me but you can't disagree with the facts. In the last decade less than 50% of the military members who have committed suicide never deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

and the rates are increasing at very similar levels.

for me a lot of this goes back to the post I made about the family life convention that my wife and I went to this weekend. kids these days just are not shown how to cope with life by their parents. There only taught amd on tv they only see how to take the easy way every single time and for some reason too many people these days see suicide as the easy way.

You are not disrespectful, quite the contrary thank you. You must have missed my point. You can not just compare the actual suicide numbers between the two groups without looking into factors that may explain variances, i,e, holding all other variables constant.

The military has done a better job allowing for access to counseling and other services that help prevent suicide than most likely the general citizenry has access to. So, without those resources available, the suicide rate would have been higher for the military, higher than it already is.

Further, even though we see a high suicide rate with non-combat military, some of the explanations I have read seems to draw a link though to combat operations, for example some have experienced depression for having lost friends in combat, or guilt they may experienced for not having been in combat, etc.

But, this is all missing the point of the thread-whatever police officers experience on the job is not a justification for any inappropriate behavior. Heck, I have been first on the scene of two fatality car accidents, one happening at night in front of me, the other the person was dead for quite some time but the vehicle had driven off a bank during a snow storm and I just happened to think something was out of place and looked, missing it on my way out to hunt that morning but catching it on the way back. While both were terrible to experience, it is life. If these events would have not allowed me to cope then I should have been forced to have intervention. If police work is that tough on individuals, then it is not the person's fault, but they must get help. Others should not have to pay the consequences, or asked to look the other way. I hope we would all agree.

Honestly, the back and forth here is good. It makes me think. For SA I have a question. I bet the parents of the 20 year old who needlessly drowned while handcuffed in police custody have a negative view of some police right now. So, is your wiring preventing you from liking, trusting or empathizing with them? If so, I hope you recognize where the problem is, and it is not with them.

And I know some of you will be inclined to say he got what he deserved, he was driving a boat drunk. When I was 20, I was in college in the USMC OCS program. I was a red blooded male. I might have, might have I say, on occasion drank a little too much of the Dirty Bird. Maybe some of the wild boys were my friends even. (a little Billy Joe there!) I know I am out of step with society today, but I also know I most likely would not have hung around too long with guys who didn't feel the need to sow a little wild oats back then. Yes, I am different today!

Never got into trouble, and if I had, I would be expected to pay the consequences. But, even today I would not take those good times back. Be honest here guys, I bet many of you in private would admit the same. The consequences though should never involve losing one's life, even if it is only poor training or? I guess I think we should expect more of our LE and Justice System.

And SA, I only don't like BAD cops. make sure you quote me right and just don't assume something that has not been said directly. I don't think anyone would accuse me of mincing my words.

Agreed. I don't see red automatically. I have a good friend who is a part time deputy, and several former students who are police. Several stay in touch, sharing photos of harvests for example. All are excellent people, as police officers, as husbands, and as citizens!

As a teacher for 25 plus years I can tell you something that is shared across all professions- treat people with respect, and respect will be afforded back. Teachers with poor reputations are typically those who think they are absolute dictators in the class room.

One thing that was shared with me that might explain some of the behaviors that on occasion irk some of us. I have been told that officers get real frustrated in many cases because though they have accumulated enough evidence, prosecutors concerned with their win ratio will often refuse to bring a case unless it is a slam dunk. An officer suggested to me that maybe sometimes an officer will play 'judge and jury' just out of those frustrations. If true, I don't know what the answer is other than better prosecutors?

I encourage civil discourse. Please understand for my own reasons though I don't accept behavior that I feel is bullying. I guess I have been hard wired that way since 2nd grade, no kidding!

OK, regarding the 2 truths, I believe you stated you were an officer in the AF? If I am incorrect, please accept my apology. Second, IMO understand, you "rush" to jumping on many threads where questionable police behavior is discussed. Again, IMO, you do exactly what you accuse the "cop bashers" of-you rush to judgment about people such as me or Spike.

It may not be intentional, but with your comments about only my side of the story, statements like that can cast dispersion on an individual. Let me say this, I have given all of the facts as I see it. Those that know me would say though I am not perfect, like every human, my integrity is outstanding. Again, I have failed short on occasion with regards to that, as I am sure you have as well. This is not one of those times. I have no record other than 5 traffic tickets. So I would appreciate if you quit casting dispersions when you do not know all of the facts either, fair enough I hope?

The stories including the late night call were put on BS for a reason. We know that LE monitors this site, and we knew the message would get back to the sheriff-the message being three of us were not going to be intimidated. One of the 3 is Chief Legal Counsel for a major national organization every one on this site would recognize immediately, and respect immediately. The Sheriff in fact immediately resigned the Board. That says everything. I documented all of it so if someone does try and change the story, they will not be able to do so without being challenged.

TB, I also use my real name. Everyone knows who I am by now. I am not going to jeopardize my reputation with false statements. PM me if you want my cell number to discuss this further.

Please, again let me state that my wife and I believe the vast, vast majority of LE due their job exceedingly well-a job that is difficult, much more so than most, and probably under-appreciated. That being said, given the repetitive themes on this site about government needing to be challenged, I believe that also applies to LE behavior that is not within the Constitution. We should never even discuss what POs have to go through on the same thread as with out of line behavior. Honestly, I think the strong statements that have come from you and others at times discourages people from standing up to bad behavior. I also believe the police, the good ones, appreciate the efforts to help them rid their departments of the bad apples. And by "bad apples" I don't mean the main problem is their integrity, more often than not they probably just don't have the personality, temperament or judgment to be effective officers. Teachers are no different.

I thank you and sincerely appreciate your effort to have a civil discourse. I apologize for my allowing the discussion to deteriorate at times!

When you spent the later part of your teens and early twenties referring to the police as Pigs you have a tendency to carry that into your later years

I had to think about this over night before I decided to post. I do not want to rile anyone either TB, yet I maintain that a free society must remain constantly vigilant.

I was reading TB's post while watching the local news at 10PM on channel 41 (Kansas City) last night. One of the leading stories was the federal indictment on 4 charges against a former local police officer. The news interviewed a retired FBI agent regarding the case.

Allegedly the officer pulled a teen ager over for some driving offense. On camera the teen asserted his civil rights and asked if he was being arrested, and if so for what reason.

He was tazed. But the officer allegedly kept tazing him until the point of cardiac arrest. The youngster had to be put into an induced coma for a period of time to survive. One year later he is still going through speech and physical therapy.

The officer allegedly lied on his official report, and allegedly lied or misled investigators. Please note I stated allegedly at least twice. He is innocent until proven guilty. So are all citizens who go through similar incidents.

That is what I hope all of us remember. No rush to judgment on either side of these issues. TB, I honestly think there was a reason this story hit the news last night. My own Faith through the years has taught me that coincidental timing is probably anything but. That is why I posted this. The message I received was to remain strong in the face of criticism. I really am just an average guy with no criminal record who through a couple of incidents detailed above has in my later years started to question if there are too many episodes of behavior that are not in line with our Rights.

I support body cameras, not because they will capture bad acts, but because I believe people change their behavior or at least are more cautious when they have reason to believe there will be a record of events. This should be good for both the officers and citizens.

Please understand, I recognize both sides of this issue. You did in your last post as well. I appreciate that. To the others who think the typical police behavior which is excellent should nullify recognition of behavior that needs to be questioned, and stopped, my words here are not meant to offend, but hopefully cause more thought. Thanks!

Then you will always have problems with Law enforcement. I'm 55 yrs old. Never been in trouble with the Law. Never had any bad experiences with the Law. Why? Because, every time I have dealt with the Law I simply did what they asked. Yes I've been pulled over for speeding. I've been pulled over for no reason a few times. I simply answered their questions , or proved I had insurance or whatever. A few years back I had the County Sheriff show up at my house 2 days before Christmas looking for my son. Why? Because my son failed to pay a speeding ticket he got 2 months earlier. So who is at fault? The Sheriff or my son? Did I get angry because the Sheriff was going to haul my son downtown to jail 2 days before Christmas? No. I called my son told him to come home because I had a problem. Didn't say the Sheriff was there. When my son got home he saw the Sheriff waiting for him. He was told to pay the fine now. Or spend Christmas in jail. He rode down to the station with the Sheriff. Paid his fine. The Sheriff gave him a ride back home.

When you break the law. It is nobodies fault but yours. Don't be offended if you get hauled to jail when you know you're wrong.

The problem is people have been hauled to jail who have not been wrong. To think LE has never abused their authority, that they are always right, is naïve at best. Your attitude to always just listen to what LE tells us to do puts on squarely on a path to dictatorship. When they are wrong, it is our Civil Duty to stand up and face the consequences. More Americans must realize that. I might have placed my wife and others in more jeopardy if I had followed the trooper's orders to return to where the dead deer was immediately, which was rush hour. People have been killed in similar circumstances. My obligation was to the safety of my wife. The officer exercised terrible judgment, I was not going to pay for that! Freedom is too precious to let slip away on the notion that only one side does wrong.

And yes, it appears we will always have problems with LE because they are humans, and prone to error like any of us.

But, we also have a responsibility to make LE more effective, and our obligated to help them-that is also part of our Contract with Society.

And when we are at fault, they still have a responsibility and moral obligation to use only necessary force. There are restrictions on all members of society.

Everyone must remember that our government does not have to like our personality for the Bill of Rights to apply to us. Being an ass does not give a LEO the right to do whatever they want.

And, there is a reason federal charges were filed. IMO our AG is correct that investigations into shootings should be conducted by a department other than the local police force who the DA is obligated to work with.

FYI, I believe both the officer and teenager discussed above are white, not that that should matter.

Also, of the 400 shootings Spike referred to, I question if this is accurate. I further believe most if not all were situations where the officer or an innocent's life was threatened if the person was not shot. I also believe we are obligated to make sure that is the case though. And to get to the full truth.

If someone lost their life needlessly, those that want to give the police a free pass, no matter what you think, are no friend of liberty. Ask yourself if this happened to the person closest to you, would you still say the same. Everyone of us have had bad days where we wish we could have done something different. We should not have to pay with our life or freedom for a simple mistake. Maybe this is a lot to ask of our police, but we must demand it if we cherish our freedom.

One of our counselors developed a heart problem after giving birth one year ago. She is facing a heart transplant. She needed to raise $75K for the hospital to perform the life saving surgery by the end of March.

A colleague decided to go directly to our extended community to raise the money, and not with things like bake sales. She identified 100 people she thought could afford to write a check for $500. Many of us did. She spread the word because we were going to be short.

Students brought cash, any where from $5 to checks of $200. We had a person committed to the college write a check for $10K the day they were asked.

Prayers were sent more numerous than the cash no doubt. The surgery will happen!

It does not matter the occupation, we have a society that is generous and forgiving. I treasure what this great country stands for! I know the rest of you do as well. Let not our disagreement over this issue cause us to lose sight of that.

That's your opinion. I'll stay with mine. Path to Dictatorship? Not hardly. Not even close. People must obey the law. There is no gray area. People must take responsibility for their actions. That means you as well Habitat.

Did you read what happened? He instructed us to return to the scene where a dead deer was, during rush hour. We had already left. Telling us to go back would have possibly placed us and others in harm's way. An individual was killed after hitting a dead deer and getting out of his car on another KS highway just 50 miles from where our accident occurred. Another motorist struck him trying to avoid the deer.

The trooper was wrong. He exercised bad judgment. If I am paranoid, you are an idiot. ;)

I invite all of you to read a document that you might have heard of. It begins "We The People...", not we the police. Spike nailed it with his last comment.

FYI, no report is required in KS for insurance. After calling me first, I had Robin call 911. Location was close to home, so I arrived before officer. At Robin's request I removed her from the scene.

As I entered the highway I had her call dispatch back to advise we had left and there was a dead deer on the edge of the road. We were concerned for everyone's safety. Having struck multiple deer before I knew we did not need to call. Had no reason to believe I needed to wait there.

I only had Robin call as multiple safety bags deployed, the car was inoperable. We had to leave it there, again IMO patrol needed to be advised of a disabled car at X location for traffic control and safety. I thought we were being very respectful and honorable, concerned citizens.

We were almost to full speed by the time the call was made. After two times of telling Robin to go back, I asked for the phone and told dispatch in a firm, less than polite command voice that that part of the conversation was over. I also said we would meet the officer any where he wanted. Please read that again. We were instructed to just go on.

He later met my wife and issued the two tickets. My belief is that it was in retaliation for my refusal to adhere to his instructions., and my demeanor.

I also believe LEOs are probably reading discussing this. They can dispute my story if they wish, I will respond.

Most importantly what a missed opportunity for LE and two citizens to have had a positive exchange that would have been helpful. The young officer could have learned to instruct future victims to a safe location to meet. I would have taken the time to apologize and explain the stress of the situation and trying to talk on the phone at that time caused me to be disrespectful. A shook up wife, major car damage, calling the office to say I might not be there for my first class or two etc.. The officer and I could both have handled it better.

JMO, I am still upset that the officer was probably issuing the tickets to a woman for what her husband did. It still seems to both of us like an attitude of "you will do what you are told, or else!"

TB, you are being very respectful, thank you. Maybe officers are suspicious when someone leaves the scene, but we called, it was before 8am, they knew who we were... Hard to understand a conclusion of possible drugs etc. and calling back to say we had left, hardly suspect behavior.

My comment about paranoid versus idiot is to make a point. Believe it or not, we teachers have to deal with people on a daily basis as well. Sometimes we might get a little cranky and not want to take any more whatever. Sound familiar? Lots of things at play in everyone's lives. Officers want respect afforded them that is due, my main point is that so do citizens. If both sides can admit that we must do better, that would be a start.

If I ever experienced something similar, I would request permission to relocate to the next exit ramp. Understand, I would ask as I was headed there. With that approach I would have the officer feel he was respected and I would be taking care of my wife simultaneously.

I hope this all sounds reasonable.

Yes, I have read thru your posts. Believing anything you have written is a different story. I don't. You're overreacting, along with being paranoid. If you work with Law enforcement. They will work with you. I base my opinion on personal experience.

obviously I based my opinion on something other than personal experience. Lol!

TB, if I gave the impression ever that I believe only one party is at fault in any disagreement, I need to apologize. I do believe, going from memory only, that my original post acknowledged my less than cordial attitude or tone... But, please also recognize that we were shocked at the outcome because we thought we were acting very responsibly for all parties.

Can you remember what caused one of our first exchanges? I see the garner case in NYC much differently than Ferguson. I do believe LE must be listened to. I also believe society attitudes towards LE reaction with "hard headed" individuals is evolving. Today I believe the citizens expect LE to react differently with a person like garner, doing what he was versus a dangerous felon. Back during the get tough on crime days, probably folks would look the other way a little more. Now with videos every where, things have changed.

It is no different in education. I cannot do what professors did when I went to college in '77-81. We either evolve and adapt, or retire.

Hopefully my last post will do some good. For all the LE reading this, while accidents are a daily occurrence in your lives, they are fortunately the oddity for most of the rest of us. Understanding the increased stress present, and not being fully aware of what else someone may be going through, a little understanding, even when the other person is out of line, will go a long way. Thanks.

Excellent job of keeping a suspect talking until the story changes.

H4W. Trublu was correct in all of his assumptions. Your story is an ever changing drama

I got it. Your wife hit a deer. Airbags went off lots of damage to the vehicle. You raced in to save her. You did. But she took control and made you take her home, maybe or Maybe not against your better judgement, but Momma wanted to go home and she did. You did what you thought was the appropriate thing and you used the "command " voice with LEO and dispatcher. You thought you were in charge. And you were in your own mind

Wife got tickets. I never read the rest of the story but had you gone to court with tickets they would have been thrown out. But you could not have known that at the time

All if this does not come down to a precursor to a dictatorship in spite of what you and nut job Spike think

Uncomfortable situation that I hope you and the trooper learned something from

Spike. Nice divert comrade

To try and paint it as my story evolved shows a lack of integrity on your part. Many of the assumptions were wrong, including yours that momma got to go home.

Whatever would have happened in court is not material. The officer should have never issued them, the situation and facts did not warrant that. It was a waste of everyone's time. Please focus on that.

What changed for both TB and myself was an attempt to be more respectful. That is the change. The fact that you try and portray it as anything but, again is a lack of integrity. In fact I know for sure on my original post I admitted to my demeanor. My integrity demanded it. Again my approach with how I brought that back into the discussion was an attempt to be cordial.

Let me state it again, nothing changed. My demeanor did not warrant the officer's reaction and writing tickets. It was simply an abuse of his power. People in our society who are not educated and knowledgeable and without the resources to refuse to accept this type of behavior I have no doubt would end up with a different result. That is what many of the discussions in our nation are about. Hopefully you can connect the dots.

And to call someone a suspect. RK, if you are in LE and ever wonder why you are disrespected, it is your attitude. The public is tired of cops who hold court on their own. You admit the tickets would have been thrown out if we went to court. Great, how many people would not have time to do that and would pay the fines and resulting higher insurance rates? And you admit this was intentional. That is the officer holding court on his own.

I hope LEOs cringe when they read this. You are admitting since the officer did not like my behavior he was within his right to take this action? Yet citizens are required to always be respectful and follow the law 100% of the time? You have just admitted to what members of the public sometimes believe about police behavior.

Yet spike is the nut job? But tactics like what happened to my wife and I are OK if an officer decides so? I think the suspect in all of this is not me. I would include you as one. Hope guys that do this type of behavior have their careers cut short.

If as a teacher I ever try to negatively impact a student who I had a disagreement with by giving them a lower grade than they had earned, or if I ever let a student's personality impact their grade, I would be held accountable. In over 25 years of teaching I haver NEVER done that. I have had to deal with much more difficult students than a person who used a command voice to say no to a questionable directive.

RK, glad you talked. Vigilance is certainly warranted. I am sure spike gets I what has been exposed here.

Nothing to see here. We can all move forward.

The officer absolutely had no reason. If your justification is my attitude gave him the right to do what he did, I hope you are not an officer.

Look, my name is attached. The dispatch call is part of the record. Without again going through the health issues my wife was facing at that time here are the facts:

I used a command voice to say no I would not return to the scene. Being 50 plus, fairly intelligent and having a record of usually good judgment, I felt the location was risky.

After saying "that part of the discussion is over..." I also immediately said we would meet the officer anywhere he wanted. Remember, we had already left the scene. Waiting there versus attempting to return to a location with a disabled vehicle and dead deer present during rush hour are two different things. We were instructed to just go on. That last sentence is critical.

If the officer had told us to go to the next exit (223rd st) and wait for him, we would have done so. It would be our civic duty. If he had, none of this would have taken place would it?

In fact we took the time to meet with his captain at a later date. So any of your assumptions, or his, about wanting to vacate for some reason are totally out of bounds. But, some of you have proven that will not cause you to reassess because you already know everything. In fact, the location we met, I believe it is called a District Office, was probably 10 miles from the scene. After we met with the captain, on the way home Robin wondered why the trooper just did not instruct us to go there after the accident. She stated how safe it was.

I know you think it was clever that I would continue to talk. Yet, I have said nothing different than the first post. Consistency in statements, that is important to you right? Actually RK some things bugged me about the exchange with the trooper. Just maybe we were too quick to accuse him of improper conduct. I mean, he did tell us his lieutenant had told him he could arrest Robin if he wanted. That caused me some anguish and why I immediately, and maybe unfairly, drew a conclusion about the trooper. But before you criticize me, from what is written here it is obvious LE draws conclusions as well.

So, I continued to bring this up. And several of you have convinced both my wife and I beyond a shadow of a doubt that in fact what we thought transpired did. The officer felt disrespected and was going to make us pay.

What we all have witnessed here is too many folks who seem to think that behavior is justified. But we all know it is not. That is what was shown on this thread RK, not that my story changed. Thanks for helping us all see what some in LE think is OK. Again, it is the minority, just like it is the minority of teachers who abuse their positions. I have no tolerance for either, but am required to forgive simple mistakes. I do not believe this was a simple mistake. I believe the officer and his superiors wanted to punish me. Even if the tickets would not stick, I would be forced to take time to deal with it, and since they made assumptions about me just wanting to go on they probably concluded this would make up for the time I did not give them. And you want LE to be respected. His superiors at any time could have ended this. They could have apologized. But no, I needed to be taught a lesson. That is what your attitude has convinced me of. You admit the tickets would not stick-they must have known as well and if so, they decided to play court and violate my rights.

TB is correct about no state charges being filed in NYC. I believe disciplinary action was taken in the Garner case? I also will wait for any federal or civil proceedings before any conclusions can be made.

Yes TB,I was too direct in my tone to dispatch. They were poor instructions. Admitting that would go a long way. I bet this situation would be handled differently in the future. That's what I hope the Patrol took from this. It could have all been avoided with better judgment and or training on the trooper's part. Those are the facts.

You know why I lost respect. It is because what really is important to the police? If it is about the public's and the officer's safety, then moving to a safer location is the wise thing to do. Anybody who thinks a report in this type of situation is more important than the public's safety, real or perceived, should be questioned. We concluded this was not about safety, but about not ever being allowed to question LE authority. It is sad, but my respect from this thread has deteriorated further. I was hopeful by my continued admission of falling short of my typical behavior, LE types could also admit this should have been handled better. But, alas, I am guilty, a suspect because I dared to challenge them. Lock me away, punish me, we can't have members of a free society ever behave as I did.

If I am paranoid, it is about the retaliation my friends who are reading this tell me I should now expect. They are too afraid to even respond with PMs on BS, want no record of what they think. I pray their paranoia is just that. And if not, count me a Patriot!

God Bless!

I have no idea what LE is like. Not LEO

I have no idea what or who your friends are that are scared to respond on BS or by PM regarding this. I really doubt LEO are watching or reading this thread for any reason. Unless of course you have litigation out on the dept. that did this to you

IF you do then you need to stop making any comments about the situation Your lawyer should have told you that

IF the case is over then it does not matter what you or anybody else says and your friends are really paranoid and you are too

I got it that you can't get over this. But you need to I am well aware of how power can be abused. I had a huge removed from the bench in the 80s due to his actions. But I did something rather than just complain to the world that I had been wronged

Either get satisfaction the right way and get changes made in the system where you live or drop it and move on

Using it to broadbrush LE is wrong. Of course that is my opinion

There is no litigation. That is not my way. A mistake was made. Did we learn from it?

I am not broad brushing any profession. We express our opinions on forums. We use personal examples to validate our views. That is what I have done.

Please quit playing internet psychiatrist. :)

Hopefully changes do happen from discussions on blogs like this one.

Do you understand we just did not complain to the world? We took the time to set up a meeting with his captain. What turned into complaining in your words here was me using my experience and then immediately being attacked and subjected to what is all to common in our country today-character assassination through innuendo. And it happens on the CF much too often as well. I hate bullies!

Here's what I am taking away. I bet most officers would not agree with how the deer accident was handled by the trooper, or me. They would never say that though because there is a lot of pressure to stay united. Does the behavior that happened to us hurt or help LE? Does not standing up to it hurt or help?

Just my take on Spike's last post, but your comment about "momma" is the kind of disrespect you are probably not even aware that you do. Robin is not momma, she is my wife of 33 years and is treated with the utmost respect that a lady deserves and should expect from her man. Can I assume you are divorced? I think you get the point?