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Did Freddie Gray Have Spinal Surgery (From Car Accident) A Week Before His Arrest?…

(more embedded links at link)

Currently it is being reported the investigation into Freddie Gray’s death will be complete by Friday. However, the same media reports are saying the results will not be made immediately public. This is odd considering the surrounding ideology of Baltimore which would be highly favorable to a finding of wrongdoing by the police.

If the investigation revealed police wrongdoing there is nothing in the Baltimore political apparatus which would keep it hidden from public. Ergo, there’s a possibility any report would contain exculpatory information beneficial to the police.

Which brings us to a potential game changing discovery showing up in some social media about Freddie Gray having spinal surgery shortly before the events outlined within the controversial encounter. It must be noted however, that none of this is factually confirmed and we should research further.

The story is in essence:

“Freddie Gray had a pre-existing spinal and neck injury [from a car accident] and had severe damage and scar tissue from an accident that Allstate insurance was paying via a large structured settlement.

Freddie had several unsuccessful spinal fusion surgeries, and his most recent spinal/cervical operation was a week and a half before he was arrested. Freddie should have been at home in bed resting and recovering from this recent major operation.

If you look on Howard County Civil Court records you will find a case whereby Freddie Gray Jr. was trying to cash in his monthly structured Allstate settlement into a lump sum payout through Peachtree funding”.

Another report from The Fourth Estate essentially encapsulates the same story outlined in alternate (social) media:

[…] EXCLUSIVE: The Fourth Estate has learned that Freddy Gray’s life-ending injuries to his spine may have possibly been the result of spinal and neck surgery that he allegedly received a week before he was arrested, not from rough excessively rough treatment or abuse from police.

The Fourth Estate has contacted sources who allege that Freddy Gray received spinal and neck surgery a week before we was arrested, and was allegedly receiving a large structured settlement from Allstate Insurance. The surgery is allegedly related to a car accident in which Gray was involved (more)

Indeed there is a civil tort case in the Circuit Court for Howard County – Civil System listing Freddie Gray Jr. as party to a civil action structured between Peachtree Settlement Funding LLC and Allstate Life Insurance Company. (link)

(at link are several images of legal docs here)

Whether the actual facts -as laid out beyond the settlement claim- are true is unknown. However, any report claiming the above related to a “car accident” seem sketchy at best. In a previous Baltimore Media article the following was noted:

[…] As children, he and his two sisters were found to have damaging lead levels in their blood, which led to multiple educational, behavioral and medical problems, according to a lawsuit they filed in 2008 against the owner of a Sandtown-Winchester home they rented for four years.

With so much of its housing stock predating laws banning lead in paint, Baltimore continues to wrestle with the after-effects on thousands of children who have inhaled or ingested the toxic metal.

[…] The siblings filed the lawsuit against Stanley Rochkind and several corporations associated with him. (Originally, the suit also targeted the owner of another home where the family lived, but that defendant was ultimately dropped.)

Rochkind is well known for owning hundreds of rentals in the city over the years, many of which have drawn lead paint lawsuits. In 2001, he was fined $90,000 by the Maryland Department of the Environment as part of a consent agreement that required him to rid some 480 rental units in Baltimore of lead paint. (link)

What would appear more likely is the Howard County civil action is some kind of request by Freddie Gray and his Sister for a lump sum payment, or changes in relation to the lead paint lawsuit litigants.

Obviously if Freddie Gray Jr. did FACTUALLY have spinal and neck surgery less than two weeks before his encounter with police resulting in death from a spinal injury – such a revelation would be a game changer.

Perhaps the media will begin to look a little closer at the claim. Perhaps it is an unfounded and unwarranted claim. However, it is very interesting and deserves further inquiry.

I opted to not read the info, prefer to stay safely in the dark

If this is true its a game changer bar none. Protesters, rioters, and social engineers go straight to jail, do not pass go or collect $200 dollars.

If Obama REALLY cared he'd be doing something about the unemployment rate that blacks have being DOUBLE what it is for whites. But he won't/can't.

Just blame whitey and the police. That's WAAAAY easier and something his base can actually comprehend.

Wrong. Facts don't matter.

Propaganda is king facts take a backseat and feelings are the catalyst...

I would like to know how credible this is.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/freddiegraysuit.asp

"The site’s name Snopes[1] is derived from the newsgroup handle of one of its creators, David Mikkelson, who used it as early as 1993.[8] It is taken from the last name of a family that appears in three of William Faulker’s novels.[2] As a key contributor to the Usenet newsgroup alt.folklore.urban[6] in the 1990s, Mikkelson began building a reputation for his ways with researching urban legends.

After connecting with another alt.folklore.urban poster named Barbara in 1994, the two got married and began running Snopes in 1995. While neither of them were researchers by trade, they were able to make the site a full-time job.[9] Snopes was originally hosted on SimpleNet[7] before moving to Snopes.com in 1997. As of 2009, the Mikkelsons continue to work on the site from their California home offices with their five cats."

oddly, these two knerds have more respect, amongst the wandering leftists, than buddha hisself

BALTIMORE — A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray “banging against the walls” of the vehicle and believed that he “was intentionally trying to injure himself,” according to a police document obtained by The Washington Post.

The prisoner, who is currently in jail, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him. His statement is contained in an application for a search warrant, which is sealed by the court. The Post was given the document under the condition that the prisoner not be named because the person who provided it feared for the inmate’s safety.

The document, written by a Baltimore police investigator, offers the first glimpse of what might have happened inside the van. It is not clear whether any additional evidence backs up the prisoner’s version, which is just one piece of a much larger probe...

I hope that some of you here who initially (As usual),,, Declared that the Police were in the wrong..........

Have learned that what appears in the media often times is inaccurate or just a small portion of all the facts of an incident that are needed to determine what happened.

FOX news said the same thing, and Hannitjy had a LE officer on who said this is not uncommon for criminals to do. No follow up from Hannity on sureshot' s excellent point that if this is not unusual, then the police had an obligation to follow policy and seat belt him in.

Bear, I would not be concluding anything. This could just as easily be a low level thug who was dealt with so roughly and procedure not followed that it caused his injury. The police already admitted he should have been given medical attention.

There are serious issues involved, protests starting to grow in other cities. We will not end up at current procedures going forward. You can bet there will be changes.

Per usual, the cop bashers are in full cry, the criminal apologists are also and there are probably less than 15 people on the planet who KNOW what the hell happened to Freddie Gray.

Never heard of a show called 'Cops"? I live in a cocoon:)

Alright, since they are going to hurt themselves anyway, let's just authorize the cops to shoot them once in the back of the head. Does that work for you?

Gosh, you thinks cops might be ready for the drug induced idiot, or someone with mental illness or lead paint tainted brain. Read the article, maybe someone on the conservative side will actually conclude more training will help police/citizen relations as well as protect the sanctity of life for more than just the unborn.

The investigation has been completed and the results turned over to the prosecutor.

WRT expressing opinions, sure, I'm all for it. In a situation like this it's helpful to remember that fewer than 15 people on the planet really KNOW what happened and the rest of us are as usual left to filter all the BS that IS available thru our own particular lens. Those thousands of protesters believe the cops jacked this man up because that's what they want to believe. They have no better information than anyone. Those who support the actions of the Officers in this affair have no better information either, they're just predisposed to support LEO's.

Me, I'll just wait and see. Seems to be the safest, most logical course. Full disclosure, if I had a dog in this hunt or it were my relative lying on that slab I might be as reactionary as anyone...

My apology, I thought most cop bashers were criminal apologists to some degree, of which I am neither. I see no difference in how criminal behavior is treated regardless of who did it. Thanks.

I work in our county jail and we always have a few individuals bent on hurting themselves. The tactics or restraints that would keep them safe from themselves are usually banned. Incidents involving these inmates are often responded to by about 1/4 of the sworn staff. They continually take up huge resources, then brag later about how they run the jail. "Look at all the cops it takes to handle me!"

Further, if Gray sustained his injuries in the van, that means he was faking it as he screamed and they hauled him to the back of the van. Gives credence that he was "combative", my word not anyone else's.

So whatever happened in that van is crucial. His Chief said he should have been belted in, and he should have been given medical attention, so the officers appear to me at least partially responsible, even if he did inflict the injuries on himself.

Self inflicted I have two concerns with, would not the medical examiner know the difference between self inflicted or not? Could a guy actually intentionally hit his head so hard that it would leave a wound that matched an object in the van, or could this have been from uncontrolled rolling around caused by how the vehicle was driven?

The bad arrest allegation is also a cause for concern for anyone that wants everyone to adhere to our Constitutional principles.

I would think an independent investigation is warranted, but glad Justice will look into it as well.

EDIT: Should have said 'NY' Police Officer. Sorry!

2nd degree murder and manslaughter? That's a HIGH bar that's been set. When they don't convictions on that watch what happens then.

Time for the machine guns with intersecting fields of fire.

Also claimed after "finking" on two occasions when he called for back up, no one showed up. Claims the aggressive police behavior came from the very top, that the head guy who came from, not sure but maybe Long Beach CA, set the tone and had a reputation before he came here.

Also said the vast majority of officers are great guys.

Don't know what the truth is, but there are obviously different views out there and probably both sides are right on some beliefs, and mistaken on others.

However, and most unfortunately, there will be some who use this as an excuse to murder some cop who likely did no harm to anyone, leaving a family mourning in its wake. But the community organizers have their enemy, so they do not give a flying damn.

It absolutely matters. Many see the Baltimore riots as just one instance, and the sole cause of the riots. It is not. The BPD has had a DoJ investigation and as sure shot's posts show, there have been many numerous alleged instances. Please notice my careful wording!

Some see it as a time for a coffee break, but in reality there will be much work going on in the back ground. I like what Kasich said on FOX yesterday.

I have read as much and listened to most of the news commentary. Knowing that has a history of accuracy issues, but so have some of the posts here, I believe there are reasons to believe some of these stories of aggressive police tactics are more accurate than many care to admit. And while some may not have a problem with that, I am one who wants the Constitution observed.

It looks like a bad arrest, knife not illegal, running is not a crime, should have been belted in per department policy, medics should have been called per department policy, one stop that was unreported until a camera caught it, healthy when arrested, dead within a week...doesn't pass the smell test and even if the officers avoid or prevail in the criminal prosecution, things will have to change or we can expect more of the same.

My friend is a cop on LI and he told me about this case. He said the officers involved all should be fired but nothing happened to any of them. This could be anyone of us. Below is what was posted on a message board while the link has the Guardian Story.

A Long Island, New York, mother of three has been awarded $1.12 million by a federal jury after she was falsely arrested while taking pictures at an Air National Guard base in the Hamptons, with a legally owned AR-15 rifle and ammunition in the trunk of her car.

Nancy Genovese, 58, said she was taking photos for a “Support Our Troops” website when she was detained and arrested by Suffolk County authorities, Britain’s The Guardian newspaper reported.

“What they took from this woman cannot be measured in money,” prominent Long Island civil rights attorney Frederick Brewington told media, following a decision by a federal jury. “There is no reason to treat another human the way they treated her.”

He went on to say that Suffolk County deputies humiliated her after arresting her in July 2009 while she took photos of a military helicopter on display outside the Gabreski Airport Air National Guard base in Westhampton Beach on eastern Long Island.

One of the deputies allegedly said she was going to be arrested for terrorism so she could be made an example of to other “right wingers,” Brewington asserted.

“Teabagger,“ “right winger“

“Ms. Genovese was subjected to a level of abuse because they did not share the same political views as she did and saw this as an excuse to deny her even the most basic civil rights,” said Brewington.

After her arrest, Genovese filed suit against Suffolk County, the Sheriff’s department and other parties for wrongful actions. She claimed in her suit that she was only arrested because she belonged to the Tea Party movement, which essentially advocates for smaller government and fewer taxes.

When arrested, she was charged with criminal trespass and spent four days in jail before being released with no charges filed.

As further reported by The New York Post:

Southhampton cops searched her and found a legally owned rifle that she was transporting from a nearby rifle range. She contends a deputy sheriff arrived on the scene later and said to her, “I bet you are one of those Tea Party people.” When Genovese said she’s gone to Tea Party rallies, he allegedly said, “You’re a real right-winger, aren’t you?” and “You are a ‘Teabagger’” and then added that she’d be arrested for terrorism to make an example of other “right wingers.”

In a statement Genovese said she was “relieved” by the jury’s verdict, adding, “If this can happen to me, and officers can abuse their power like this, I can only imagine how other people who are not as fortunate as me have been treated.”

Death of constitutional rights

In a rather misleading opening paragraph, the Post said that when she was arrested, Genovese was “armed to the teeth with a licensed assault rifle in her car.” Again, the rifle was legally owned and the only weapon that reports said she had in her possession at the time — though a photo that accompanied the Post story showed an AR-15 and a shotgun and several boxes of ammunition for each.

There were also disparities in headlines; the Post‘s headline called Genovese a “Tea Party mom” while The Guardian‘s headline described her as a “New York woman.”

The Guardian also said the $1.12 million is for compensatory damages; the jury is currently considering punitive damages as well.

Increasingly, in post-constitutionalist America, certain speech, certain political views, and certain public attitudes are being tolerated less and less by authorities, by universities and by certain political factions — which is ironic, given the very clear protections recognized and outlined in the Constitutions’ very first amendment.

That a police officer would even use terms like “right winger” and “Teabagger,” and then tie those terms into acts of terrorism, is disturbing, to say the least.

When you guys have taken me as anti-cop, I now realize it is because I did not make clear that my perspective is coming from a policy point of view.

My biggest concern is that current police tactics that have been established from the top down may hinder actual rank and file police from executing their jobs. For example, over the weekend FOX reported that a good measure of police community relations is the percentage of crimes that are solved. In Baltimore only 45% of murders are solved, and this is relatively very low they said. I hope all see my point, that being if the, my words, 'take no prisoners' tactics are actually causing the public to not assist the police in solving crimes, we may have won the battle but lost the war.

I think we all want lower crime and safe officers and citizens. I place most of the fault with politicians who have been willing to look the other way while police did the heavy lifting to clean up our streets, but at the first sign of public outcry those same politicians abandoned the police for political cover. IMO, this has been a much bigger problem than the small percentage of rogue officers.

Even if other cops have been causing problems in Baltimore, that doesn't automatically spill over to this incident. A lot of the early publicity is coming from folks with an agenda, so the only question I have today is black, or do you need room for the cream and sugar?

JMO, but that is legalize and semantics. To J. Doe it is a bad arrest and gives the police a tough hole to climb out of. And yes, respectfully I disagree, it does spill over. I don't think people understand that this issue has been on a slow boil and the old saying about the straw that broke the camel's back.

Again, if you look at each one of these incidents alone, they are probably somewhat at least defensible from a legal perspective. And that is what I believe are the limitations to taking just the legal perspective. It may be legal, but if the majority of the public thinks it is unfair, unreasonable, choose a descriptor you like, there will be change.

I noticed a change in the way this was being reported this weekend. There will be change in tactics, I will be glad to bet you a dinner halfway between our two locations:)

More importantly, the changes coming will help the police not only in building relations and solving more crime, but also their own safety.

Not arguing he was no choir boy, but I got kicked out of 5th grade choir at the Catholic Church School I attended for having a terrible singing voice.

Did you happen to see his arrest record ??

Immediately after a hand to hand transaction in a highly known drug area... Gray sees the Police and runs.......

If that's what went down in one of the worst drug areas of our Country......

What would you ask the Police to do ??

IGNORE IT ????? Nothing to see there ?? Heroine in his system ??? Nothing of importance there............

And Big Bear has it right. Running isn't PC, necessarily, but eluding is a felony. And you can be stopped/questioned for less than PC.

What we do have is one dead citizen and at least 6 lives changed forever.

Bear, I was asked to not come back as God had other plans for me-at my age today I recognize it for what it was.

Bear, how many officers have multiple complaints that we have been told are not relevant. Honestly, the more we communicate the more it seems there are double standards. You don't think there is a problem but according to people in the know about Baltimore the citizens are not helping the police much, see stat above.

This problem is not just from one side, the quicker both sides realize that the quicker we will have lasting solutions.

Now he was eluding bk? Christ what has happened to you lately? You can only be stopped and questioned for so long. Quit the nonsense guys, this is the U.S., not some 3rd world rat hole.

Police in high crime neighborhoods will investigate things that may not seem like that big of a deal. 25 years ago, I had a Larimer County deputy sheriff tell me that if he stopped a carload of kids, he'd inevitably find a gun. Now, Larimer County is a thousand times better to live in than inner city Baltimore. So, I expect that a Baltimore cop takes nothing for granted.

I have seen nothing yet to justify a murder charge. Nothing at all.

You are telling Police Officers that work in the worst drug and crime ridden cities in our nation to simply ignore crime......

Experienced Police Officers in those areas know a crime when they see one.....

A Police Officer in the worst areas of Baltimore or Detroit knows a hand to hand drug transaction when they see one...... A suspect running from a hand to hand transaction as soon as he sees the Police only confirms the suspicions....

You are asking that they ignore it. I say this is a bad time for our country and a bad time to be a Police Officer.

I'd bet my next paycheck that he either pitched the drugs and they couldn't find it (Or swallowed it)..... Or the other person in the transaction fled with the drugs.....

Cops should organize a sick-out and then see how people like it.

It's ridiculous, the world has turned upside down.

We got Hillary and Rand Paul saying that we should just forget about crimes that incarcerate blacks disproportionally.

It's madness PC run amuck.

And I did a web search for the police reports. Found nothing. While I've seen plenty of police reports that had some fiction in them, what happened with other people in other situations has no bearing on what these guys did in this case.

I have yet to see an official narrative that makes a murder case out of the facts I have so far read.

I guarantee to you that they didn't chase him because they thought he had a knife in his pocket....

And I'm pretty certain that when the Police Report finally is revealed (Probably in court).....

That it doesn't read that the original Officer(s) gave chase to Gray,,, for no other reason than he ran......

I'll accept that there is a possibility they are making stuff up but internet speculation is not enough to warrant accusations of misconduct.

Blackwell was just minding his own business;; And wasn't a threat to anyone,,, Right ???

So they should have just ignored him ?? I'm sure he wouldn't have brought harm to anyone else.....

Rest in Peace Officer Moore. 25 years old.

I'll accept that there is a possibility they are making stuff up but internet speculation is not enough to warrant accusations of misconduct.

OK, let's both try not to use the emotional stuff, OK? Yes, RIP Officer Moore. What I read was his suspect had adjusted his waist band or pants in a way that would arouse suspicion he was carrying. Should not have ignored it.

bk and Bear both, talked to a great attorney, former ADA and now private practice, comes well respected. Here's his take, the police bring up the suspect's past it opens the door for this explanation:

My client Freddie ran when he made eye contact with the police because of his bad experiences with them before which is supported by several million dollar payouts for police abuse, convictions of multiple officers for the same, an ongoing DoJ investigation into the abuse etc., etc...He had told numerous friends he was not going to take another beating...

Seems my deceased client had reason to fear, no reason for arrest, did not follow proper police procedure for being belted in and denied medical assistance when requested, one stop unreported etc.

bk, in no way have I ever predicted murder conviction on any of these cases. What I have predicted is things including police tactics will change on a national level.

Bear, again I would ask you to consider that maybe the current police tactics are more of a problem than a help. Even if Freddie had drugs, I want the murderers off of the street first and the BPD is not getting much help from the citizens on that because the citizens probably don't trust or respect the BPD.

Freddie was handcuffed and then shackled. At a minimum this had to make him more vulnerable to injury, and experienced officers would have known that. Topped of with ridiculous reports like he had spinal surgery, injured himself but the guy reporting it could not see it etc... The police have an uphill road.

Multiple charges bk you know are about turning up the heat to get someone to talk.

My prediction is that there will be some type of convictions for multiple officers involved, most if not all will not be members of the BPD when this is finished. I also bet a large payout to former detective Crystal who I bet the DoJ will also be talking to. Read his story, and background-totally believable IMO.

You are calling for Police Officers to simply ignore what they see..... When they know in their heart and mind what they just saw was a street level drug deal in one of the worst areas in our country...

That is your plan to change things for the better.

Do you think that the heroine in his system made him more vulnerable to injury ?? You do know he had multiple arrests for heroine,, right ??

Can we tell how long ago the heroine was In his system. My understanding is that you will test positive for quite some time after.

Where did I say to ignore everything? Two posts ago I said the officer should have pursued the possible gun. With Freddie, he obviously has been doing this and he has not stopped so either go after who he was dealing to, or a more serious crime that is yet unsolved.

Bear, officers do get promoted based off of arrest and other stats correct? This is what has been alleged in several reports. Does this play a role in the police pursuing him so hard? Is this really about crime prevention or are other variables at play?

Bk, sorry, but she is ethical charging as long as she thinks she has a chance at proving something. Most analysts I have heard said she has over charged. For example, the officer charged with both second degree murder and manslaughter cannot be convicted of both.

Bear, what I am calling for is behavior within the confines of our Constitution. Handcuffing a person behind their back, at a later stop taking them out to shackle their legs and placing them face down, no matter what kind of dirt bag he is, is not within the confines of our laws, at least I hope not. I really think that you don't realize how many people, not on this site, feel exactly the same way.

IMO the police have a real opportunity to ask the public for input. Look at Ohio, they have established guidelines statewide for the use of lethal force according to Kasich, who set up a commission with the same make-up I recommended on another thread. I made my recommendation without knowledge yet of what Ohio was doing. This tells me that pressure is building for our public officials to do something.

In a good discussion with many of my peers about this topic, consensus formed that the police are having a difficult time letting go of the power, as all humans do when challenged.

So, my recommendation is that focus groups are formed to provide clarity and direction to the police, to foster better community support and officer/citizen relations etc. please do not accuse me of anything else.

People who are arrested who try to kick out our back windows for example,, would have leg restraints applied......

It isn't uncommon to stop a transport vehicle in order to further restrain someone who is going nuts in the back of the vehicle......

Both to prevent property damage (kicking out our back window)......

Or in the case of a paddy wagon.... To prevent the arrestee from injuring himself.....

Leg restraints,, and facial coverings (surgical type masks).... are commonly used in the most combative detainees.

"Police are having a difficult time letting go of the power"......

Police have the power of arrest. There is no disputing that. That power is exercised thousands and thousands of times daily across America. That power is not taken lightly. With it comes responsibility.

When that power is abused; Consequences should and shall be exercised.....

But in this case in Baltimore;; I truly believe that a state's attorney with political aspirations threw 6 Police Officers from Baltimore under the bus......

Democrats have been in control of Baltimore for the last 48yrs and have spent billions of dollars in just the last 10yrs to make Baltimore their minority run model city. Now they're asking for billions more to right injustice, again. In today's times drug dealers and gang members are the model citizens in Baltimore, the police are the thugs. UFB!

And it's going to get worse before it gets better........

Because a portion of society... Are quick to rush to judgement and declare that the Police are in the wrong....

They respect the side of the story of a career heroine addict before that of those who put their lives on the line every day to protect and serve....

SAD.

I'm sure somehow you could twist it into the Police's fault.........

Because a portion of society... Are quick to rush to judgement and declare that the Police are in the wrong..."

For a certain portion of society it is the absolutely intentional to paint police as oppressors and the feds as saviors.

At least not in the legal ethics courses I took nor how my ethical DA friends view it. The presence of criminal charges, particularly very serious charges, is a huge toll on the lives of the defendants. It's not a throw crap against the wall and hope something sticks.

You have no freaking clue about how a 2nd degree murder charge affects someone's life. It wrecks marriages, finances, and takes years off someone's life. It is reasonable to expect that the DA do his homework and have the goods before filing.

I defended a murder charge that should never have been filed. And no, this was a case involving a 34 year old landscaper, not a cop.

I am getting the feeling that you are going to debate and dispute any opposing view......

Not so much because what you post is what you TRULY believe.....

But because you don't want to be on the wrong side of the debate.....

No matter what anyone argues to you... You will try to out debate them.....

To the point of defending a heroine addict who probably was caught in the act of a drug transaction.............

I am disappointed with your responses. I have never defended a heroine addict. OTH, unlike some here I am not willing to convict him just because of his past. You have always claimed you want to wait for all of the facts, but you have no problem throwing anyone under the bus that does have a record, before all of the facts are in.

Bk, I am certainly not stupid or inexperienced in life. I have come out numerous times and questioned these types of charges. For what it is worth, Freddie's life and his family's has been changed forever as well. You both are judging the prosecutor's actions yet do not know all of the evidence she has. You both keep doing what you are critical of others for.

Bear, we all know why leg restraints are used. We also know that is why the person is required to be belted in, so they don't hurt themselves or cause damage. It helps avoid lawsuits. That is where these officers will end up with some liability-they knew the reasons for the requirement yet did not follow them and a person is now dead.

I realized something watching Carly being interviewed by Meagan yesterday on FOX. A decade plus in corporate management, owning my own company, one gets used to assessing information and making decisions. I have learned to trust my own judgment, especially when big holes are obvious in what someone is trying to argue. Carly was pressed by Meagan for her view that the officers should have been charged. She said Freddie was dead and that medical experts have said it is nearly impossible to self inflict spinal injuries that severe. She is right, the argument that we citizens just don't understand is full of holes. Too many incidents of citizens ending up dead in non-threatening encounters, things will change. The public is growing weary of this.

Stop the crime within the boundaries of what our Constitution allows. Anyone accusing me of implying anything different has an integrity problem.

This is solely to you. Your last post is unbelievable. Freddie was "probably" involved in a drug deal? You do the same thing with me, make assumptions about my motivations.

Just some advice, I am starting to think some of the assumptions some police make are well off the mark, you are not always right. Again, you have no problem rushing to judgment on people yet are critical when anyone does this with the police. Sure shot pointed this out to you on another thread.

Maybe we will have less of these disputed incidents if the police don't make assumptions about people without all of the facts, especially ones that can change their life forever. Remember the deer collision incident my wife had. The trooper there assumed we just did not want to wait for him, even after telling him we would meet him anywhere he wanted. He thought we just did not want to wait, yet he was so wrong because we spent more time out of our busy schedules meeting with his captain than the time it would have taken to meet him that day. You can always just ask me what is motivating me to do something as opposed to making assumptions and then offering your opinion about them in some negative way.

Here's my conclusion, too many police make the person the issue instead of the facts. You try to win the public over by attacking the individual...he had a record etc. the police are only hurting themselves with this approach IMO.

if my house was being broken into, the police would not be much help, we live out in the country. We have prepared to the best of our ability for any such encounter. We will call the police but realize the responsibility to defend our lives starts with us, it is called taking personal responsibility. That is why I believe in the absolute right to carry, to prevent the need for only cops to try and protect us.

Gang bangers should be locked up, after being transported to jail safely;)

Are quick to rush to judgement and declare that the Police are in the wrong...."

Because a portion of society...

Are quick to rush to judgement and declare that the suspect was in the wrong....

It is not a team thing. So why don't the Cop Haters and the guilty until proven innocent/deserved it crowds stop with the accusations and analyze the facts....8^0

You might even be missing the big picture...

Ever since Obama started with the "police acted stupidly" it seems he has helped to ramp up anti-cop sentiment and team mentality has gotten stronger.

Don't be suprised if it is time for martial law around November 2016. He may be a better community organizer than we anticipated...

Probable cause Habitat. Probable cause. The Police don't convict anyone on the street... They arrest based upon Probable Cause.

You would have the Police ignore probable cause. Your way of thinking would create anarchy.

Let's say he was arrested for a drug deal. The police are still negligent in the handling of the suspect. Whether it will rise to the level of criminal negligence, the Prosecutor looking at all the evidence says it does. So we can all agree that the officers are "Probably" guilty using the same standard as BigBear to justify our opinions.

You're kidding right? The Deli across the street was broken into a couple of years ago. it took the police 32 minutes to respond. The precint is about 5 blocks away.The Deli owner had a camera recording one of thieves watching out for the cops to respond while the other ones broke into his safe. After 25 minutes they got what they wanted and were gone.

A couple of years later there was an accident on my street while my wife and I were working in the yard. My wife was wearing my NRA sweatshirt. One of the cops said something to his partner about my wife with the sweatshirt that she overheard so she said "They way you guys respond to burglaries we need to protect ourselves" One cop laughed while the other seemed insulted.

Most cops are great and I appreciate their service but they are minutes away when seconds count.

And yes, there are plenty of problems with big city police agencies. I could talk for hours about Denver and Aurora, for two here in Colorado. There's no justification whatsoever for the random killings of police officers we have seen.

Gangbangers protect their neighborhoods from outsiders.

I believe Farrakom was using gang members to protect Nation of Islam property some years ago.

I have seen many interviews. Read the cops said it was a switch blade and it was not. Heard multiple cops say they are handcuffed and shackled and placed face down for their own protection, not to dehumanize anyone. Did not hear Kelly or Hannity follow-up with why if the cops are so concerned about their safety they did not seat belt the perp in per policy. Makes you go, hmmm? Have not heard an explanation for the unexplained stop.

Bear, I did not hear about the possible, then probable, now for sure drug action for a couple of days after they were placed on leave. You have decided the officers were thrown under the bus, others will look at the same evidence and conclude officers are protecting their own and Freddie was taken for a rough ride and they have had time to get their stories straight.

Here's my only for sure conclusion as a former executive. These officers no doubt will cost us millions because they did not follow policy. Regardless of any other facts, employees that make bad decisions because they did not follow policy are terminated. I don't care if I agree with their actions because the guy might have been a dirt bag and had it coming. The police must protect society and that also means not causing needless expenses of hard earned tax dollars. Just that perspective is what I hope the Republican nominee will bring to the table.

Just my gut, these are good officers that had a bad day they wish they could take back. Freddie was a burr in their saddle, and made their job tougher and more dangerous. I believe he was hurt before and then during the ride. Saw an officer theorize that perps will always put on a show when arrested so they don't get a reputation for being a snitch, and that they are a bad aXX. Believable to me, but then I wonder why Kelly did not follow up with why Freddie allegedly kept banging well after the arrest site. My gut again, he was trying to draw attention in that he needed medical help. The officers assumed it was just an act, and this time they got it wrong. If they were right, they would have probably been blamed for wasting money by calling a medic. Damn tough job, no doubt. Most are heroes like the slain NY officer. But at the end of the day, they did not follow policy-they did not seat belt him in, did not call for medical attention, and just like everyone else we own our decisions. Termination, only prosecute if an unbiased independent investigator deems crimes have been concluded and can be reasonably proven.

Also say this, lost a lot of respect for Megan over this. She had a lieutenant of BPD on yesterday and he stated his guys were so concerned now they probably would be hesitant to be aggressive in doing their jobs. Obviously from the possible stand down order, this might be expected but a leader is totally remiss in placing his officers at more risk by giving this story credibility via a mass media announcement. I would bust him back to sergeant immediately, but then again that is my business side talking. I would demand and only accept pure professional leadership from my command officers, which would include no public interviews not pre-approved by the chain of command including all the way up to the mayor saying it is OK first. Don't like it, resign and go on TV.

I'm not sure why they were not belted in. That doesn't automatically make me jump to a conclusion of wrongdoing.

This could be another "hands up, don't shoot" and it could be another of police abuse by the BPD that is well documented. I don't care about either, let the investigation, a criminal one, play out. For now, termination which sends a strong message to the entire police force and community that after the DoJ probe, things were put in place to help rectify some of the problems. No excuses, those policies must be adhered to.

Then a strong statement, by a better mayor, of exactly what is going on and why and that the entire investigation will be transparent. If the police are not responsible for his death, charge some of the "community leaders" with inciting riots. Stand by termination in that policy must be adhered to. Heck, the police union will get their jobs back with back pay:)

BigBear, Where did you obtain this information?

Yeah,,,, The Police Department leaked information regarding a pending in custody death investigation..... Just so good old Sureshot over on the Bowsite would have all the facts regarding that investigation..........

Good one man."

I figured it was from the cop interview but after you told me this in the original thread I just wanted to make sure I wasn't jumping to conclusions. I am now understanding what you meant,it is unfathomable that the police would have leaked anything that was not beneficial to them. Thanks, and you wonder why some question the motives of some police.

But I'm sure you'll chalk it all up to cops covering for cops...... He was only risking losing his job to cover for one of his cop buddies.... PLEASE.

Look..... I don't know what your beef is with Police Officers.... But you obviously have one........

And I could really care a less what you think....... After 21 years on the job..... I'm used to negative attitudes toward the Police.

10%, not too good at math are you? :) And at least 90% of that 10% has been leaked by the BD.

Why is it that you and Bear believe everything the cops are saying on this, but doubt that the prosecutor has any evidence to indict? Or not believe the Chief?

Look, I know I have been objective on this. Policy was violated, even if that is only 10% of the story, they are still terminated.

Only a lawyer could say "policies get violated, that does not mean any wrong doing" I guess it depends on how you define "wrong doing". Every where I have worked, including this government job, policy violations have consequences, and so I will define that as wrong doing.

Bear, sure shot has made it perfectly clear, over numerous posts covering just as many threads, that both of us only have problems with bad cops. It remains to be determined if these are, but, they still violated policy. It would be nice to hear how this would be dealt with in the private sector, but I can tell you it would be severe. Good reason for no unions in the public sector!

Maybe bk can use one of the ethical approaches (Individualism, Moral Rights or Utilitarian) to explain how this logic is not sound.

EDIT: WSJ just reported Lynch met with Baltimore Police and Freddie's family.

That is the problem, "Perception" is that the police will break the rules to protect their own. Much of the same can be said about interactions with police officers that are egotistical idiots or cops that rough someone up, once that negative perception is planted it grows like a weed and it is tough to kill.

You see BigBear, I don't dislike police officers, I know some that are great people, but a vast number of people, including myself,understand a lot of police officers hold themselves to a different level of standards than they hold others to and this is the perception that is hurting the police. I commend good police officers forthe job they do, it is a difficult and demanding job, but double standards leave negative perceptions.

SPOT ON!

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Reply to Thread

Here are some of my prior statements, ON THIS THREAD!

"None of that, HFW, relates to the specific facts of this case. In the early stages, a lot of speculation and flat untruths come out, so it's time to sit back, drink coffee, and wait for the investigations on both side. Remember "hands up, don't shoot?" "

Even if other cops have been causing problems in Baltimore, that doesn't automatically spill over to this incident. A lot of the early publicity is coming from folks with an agenda, so the only question I have today is black, or do you need room for the cream and sugar?

I'll accept that there is a possibility they are making stuff up but internet speculation is not enough to warrant accusations of misconduct.

This is starting to conveniently fit into an agenda. So, I'm suspicious of everything. This could be another bucket of "hands up, don't shoot" nonsense.

I'm not sure why they were not belted in. That doesn't automatically make me jump to a conclusion of wrongdoing.

If you think that's believing everything the cops say, then every conclusion one can logically reached destroys any credibility you had left.

As they should be. You don't get the freedom to act like an idiot and say anything you please when you're a Police Officer.... It could cost you your job......

Because you are expected to conduct yourself professionally at work and at home.....

With that being said,, Yes... I am more inclined to give a Police Officer the benefit of the doubt....

If you have ever been in the Military (I was in the U.S. Navy for 7 years); I am sure you would see a similar atmosphere in say,, The Marine Corps. When you go to work with people every day who you directly rely on for your safety; And in turn provide them the same safety....

You form tight bonds....... That doesn't mean you have to protect a fellow Officer or Marine if they have done something wrong..... But you would be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

If you want to make that into something bad and infer that cops protect bad cops behind some "Blue Shield"...... Then I guess all I can do is respectfully disagree.

Actions speak louder than words. In previous threads you challenged openly both sides. I do not see any where on this thread that you have challenged ridiculous stuff like Freddie had spine surgery etc. IMO there has been a trend where you respond to those challenging LE behavior, but not when those who support it say something unsubstantiated by the KNOWN PUBLIC evidence, at least not nearly as frequent or as strong.

Your credibility has been strained as well for me. Comments such as, I am summarizing, that not following policy does not equate to wrong doing, seriously only on BS can that statement have any credibility. Think Hillary and policy on e-mails and wanting to hang her. But with cops we give a free pass, correction, give more room to maneuver. Maybe if people were to think a little more about huge inconsistencies like that they might begin to understand why there are two vastly separated assessments of what has happened in Baltimore.

What would help most now is some ethical/moral clarity..riots are wrong, and so is not following policy especially when someone ends up dead. I have no doubt that if this was an immediate family member, we could see as much.

Post some of your other comments like how other cases in Baltimore are not relevant. You and I both know they will become relevant in a court proceeding.

And just your words of "any credibility I have left"...sure seems just like the tactics that have been deployed here too often bk, attack the person.

It does not necessarily imply malice. The seat belts may be crap and they don't like messing with them. Or it may be because they wanted to drive on a bumpy road and be jerks. Being a jerk is one thing, committing murder another. I do not know.

You lied about what I wrote. Sorry, dude. The truth hurts. Since you doubled down it, I no longer place any value on anything you write. It's all Joe Isuzu crap.

Have you read the news about Crystal? Dad was an officer, other relatives were. Thought he was doing the right thing and was left hanging when he requested help, according to his version.

Realize the officer and sergeant involved were terminated, so there has to be some credibility to this story.

It is just hard to believe that stories like his, and the recent ones caught on camera are the only ones out there. Makes any person able to reason wonder about the vast number of past complaints that found no error but were all investigated by the police. Makes one wonder about the bond you are talking about and sure shot's point is an excellent one, how far would that bond go?

Lots of payouts from the city. They cannot all be nuisance settlements. And a good bet is that this will all become relevant in an investigation and court action. Hopefully we will all be able to read the DoJ's report.

This is not an indictment against you or any other officer. But I certainly can understand the frustrations of citizens who if even part of their accusations are accurate have had to put up with. Probably no different than what many of us, myself included, write about being frustrated by our government whether that is tax policy, firearm ownership, possible bribes etc...

H4H, are you a Lawyer? If not, I would advise you not to continue to argue with one about the Law.

I don't know why they did not follow policy. You are being disingenuous as I never said it was done with malice or even implied it. Your credibility is shot with me as well.

Again, they did not follow policy. No explanation is needed. There is a reason for policy. Seatbelts not working, it gets taken out of service, it is that simple. Don't like the belts, tough-there are things I don't like about my job but have to do. Bear admits they are held to a higher standard, well this is it. It was a policy not followed and a person is dead. End of job. Don't care whether it was done with malice or a simple oversight. Multiple officers, according to reports, observed him at 2-3 stops not wearing the belt, and at the last 1 or 2 stops being unresponsive. One of these was a lieutenant I believe.

Actually, I chalked it up to bad judgment that cost a person his life. Said as much when I stated these are good guys that had a bad day...something like that. I don't lie, I was not referring to just this thread and my word choice should have been better. The Italian inside me. By you not challenging the stupid things said like spinal surgery, another convict separated by a partition observed Freddie hurting himself etc., but using phrases that lead others to believe something I did not say, i.e. "malice" also has permanently diminished your standing with me. Further, what may be allowed in a court is different than reasonable people looking at what has transpired in Baltimore and doing the opposite of Bear, concluding that the police should not be given the benefit of doubt.

I understand that this is an emotional issue, and all have remained civil, though passionate. As these types of cases make it in the news more frequently, I as well as many I talk to, and the vast majority being conservatives, have a growing unease about police conduct in our country. Most, myself included, feel the main problem is not rank and file officers but a culture that has been fostered for reasons that the public is now starting to question. I think this is good. It is part of our history, to change course when things might have a different cost/benefit to them than they did before.

Often we see these situations and the person's past is brought up. i.e. they had drugs in their system. I bet a lot of people have abused drugs, alcohol, their spouse etc. If these things matter for our opinion on one person, then it should matter for all involved. This is part of the double standards mentioned that some of us take issue with.

A life was lost needlessly. Sure, I feel much more empathy and gratitude for the NYPD officer killed in action than I do a Freddie. Both deaths bother me, and I want to be part of a country where most citizens can at least acknowledge that. We must get better, as citizens and as police, but it will take both sides to admit that. My own belief is that neither side is there yet, it's all a bunch of finger pointing and until we finally take action, you can bet there will be more deaths. I will know who I am going to vote for when they can speak of this issue with unvarnished truth.

Do you think they knew these tactics were used by perps when they wrote the policy? Would the Chief say it was policy if it was at the officer's discretion?

I am not arguing law, but all of us here only have second hand knowledge.

That I don't challenge everything said means....nothing.

Why should I challenge the absurd stuff? To make you happy? I don't have to state the obvious, nor challenge it. I think I've now said 5x that I'm waiting because a lot of the early stuff is questionable. So even the answer to that was...obvious.

That you have now tripled down is even more troubling.

Act in haste...and your entire case will begin to crumble around you.

Conservative Treehouse again has the best information on this case. True journalism...not drive-by agenda media.

Mosby's charges and media seem to be much different than reality.

The fact that you have again staked out the same position is troubling.

All of mouse's links are nothing more than opinion, and without all of the evidence being made public. Talk about a rush to judgment.

Not asking you challenge everything. But look at the posts here and your "challenges" are usually to those who are not willing to assume the officers are being thrown under the bus.

Example, you challenge me for stating the prosecutor filed multiple charges to turn up the heat with ethical standards of it should not be just a "chance" of proving something. Where bk is that same logic in stating the prosecutor must have something if she filed charged since she cannot file just on the chance...?

You say you want to wait, but then offer that this is conveniently starting to fit into an "agenda". So, you can look at the evidence and conclude something, as can Bear, but anyone else doing it is guilty of tripling down. You have been exposed. The two cities you cite in CO as examples of possible wrong doing I could not find as much on the web as with the documented problems in Baltimore. It is sound to believe based on the documented history in Baltimore that there is as much a chance of police wrong doing as them being thrown under the bus for a political agenda.

AND WE ALL KNOW that is crap!! The entire Kershaw spring assisted knife line is perfectly legal, and MANY of us carry the same knife in the same front pocket. And if the police are lying about the legality of the weapon to invent a crime, that should have us all concerned who have been following this case.

No mention of there being a possible drug deal. Could this be because it would not match what is in the reports of the six officers, or that they did not find drugs? Also no mention of Freddie having been arrested for a felony charge of eluding, maybe because that was not in the reports as well?

I have consistently reported facts, or questioned the soundness of those speculating while I am charged with a rush to judgment and others have not.

Bk, the biggest hole in your attack on me is allowing bear to state his belief is the officers are being thrown under the bus when all of the facts are not in. Maybe I missed it, but did you challenge that? Bear was adamant in another thread that some people were drawing conclusions without all of the facts. None of us, including bear have all of the facts.

I stated I would terminate for not following policy and WAIT for the criminal investigation to play out. I don't know. For me it is laughable that some would challenge whether or not the officers had to or should of followed policy because of what perps might do. Issue a football helmet with a plexiglass glass shield to those strapping perps in to prevent spitting and head butts. Policies are written for a reason and must be complied with, meaning you are required to find a way to comply.

People lose credibility when they disproportionately challenge what might be labeled as speculation or opinions from one side. You have done that, I have not.

BTW, I saw the Dershowitz interview. He was critical, stated his entire career he challenged police behavior, but also said she deserved credit for preventing more riots. Like the rest of us, he has no knowledge of what she knows. Possibly the officer's reports have inconsistencies, the coroner's report might be conclusive that this could not have been self inflicted and that a normal driving style would not have led to the force necessary to cause that level of spinal damage etc. biggest problem I have with FOX on this is that they more often than not have someone who supports their view and is left unchallenged. This does not include O'Reilly though. Hannity is a joke IMO, and Megan's credibility I also question now. I loved that Carly had the gravitas to not take her bait, and it was obvious that Meagan was not going to challenge someone who had the credibility to stand up to her.

I was writing my post as you posted that. I agree with this being the knife you described, and that it is legal and that this is troubling. I have tried to remain more neutral and less inflammatory in my language though since my apology to bear.

Just little dumb old me, but this challenge seems to say that they are worried about the charges of an illegal arrest, which if proven would at least make the officers look more culpable. We have to wait, but it sure looks as if they are worried.

Talk about government over reach as to what can be carried as a knife!

And where is your ethical rule that says a prosecutor may just file charges solely to intimidate, with or without the facts? Surely, as an expert in criminal law, and legal ethics, gained from years of watching TV fiction, you must have a rule.

You're like a 10 year old kid that won't acknowledge when he's wrong. You crapped your pants on this thread. Own it.

BS,

I'll let others look up their own source, but besides reading what you discussed, another source reported that Mosby warned/chided those with access to confidential police information to quit leaking. She would not say specifically what she was referring to when asked.

Also reported that possibly three of the officers did not have or were not clear on their reports as to the reason for the chase and/or arrest. Don't know if this s true or not.

What probably can be confirmed at some point is that this same source said 5 of the 6 officers gave a report, the sixth did not and that was the driver. Went on to say any jury would not be allowed to know this officer exercised their Constitutional rights.

Will be interesting to finally learn what is in those reports, and what the police investigation uncovered as well as Mosby's independent investigation. Police obviously can be held criminally liable for a false report. Have to wonder if Mosby received reports of the vehicle being driven "roughly" or if it was caught on video much like the stop that was unreported.

It was also pointed out that the head of her investigative unit's name was not on the web site, the only name absent as a head of any unit. Don't know why but could that be to protect that person from any possible negative fallout that might occur if they are labelled a snitch i.e. the Crystal case? or could it be that it provides the person cover allowing more access because people don't know? I am also left wondering why if the police investigation was turned over BEFORE Mosby announced charges there is criticism of her filing charges as being political. If her investigation could not be thorough as accused, would not that same logic apply to the police investigation?

Just asking questions that don't seem to get asked.

The young cop pulls it out of the bag and says " whoa got an illegal knife here" another officer says "put your hands behind your back" I comply but firmly tell them the knife is not illegal and this is a false arrest.

The other cop takes a look at the knife and says " That is NOT illegal!" and gives it back to me and tells me to go while he whispers heatedly in the other cops ear. Thankfully one of the cops knew the law.

I don't know the Baltimore code but if this was over a spring assisted knife that is sold by the millions in the US it strikes me as they wanted an excuse to arrest this guy. But in liberal Baltimore maybe that type of knife is illegal which is a joke.

I think back to that day where I was stopped and could have been arrested. They could have booked me and thrown me in jail and since it was after 5:00pm I wouldn't have had a hearing until the next day so I would have spent the night in jail. I would have had to tell my employer I was arrested and wouldn't make it to work the next day etc. A total nightmare for sure.

In IL under our last Democratic gun hating governor, the issue of gun crimes came up due to Chicago. One of the first things suggested by the gun rights groups was to enforce stiffer penalties for gun crimes. Of course the governor and his Democratic allies from Chicago thought this was a horrible idea. Why? Because it would cost too much to incarcerate these losers. So, we end up with the same people committing the same crimes over and over again.

So.....I can understand the frustrations faced by the police, most can. And I can understand that the police are frustrated, but everytime an officer breaks a simple rule it leaves a perception that they are above the rules. As a police officer they must remember that the rules they see as an inconvenience are no different to them than the rules citizens have been burdened with that they feel are an inconvenience. How many times do you see police officers driving excessively over the speed limit with no flashing lights, just to pull into a median and talk to another cop? How many times do you hear people talk about getting out of trouble because they know the cop? I have had that work to my benefit a few times, but it leaves a perception that if you are a cop or closely related you will be able to get by with more. By following all the rules all the time, this perception could be changed.

Baltimore's knife law is more restrictive than the state's. What is legal for carry outside of Baltimore is NOT within the city. The state does not have a pre-emption clause to prohibit local communities from having a more strict law. The city law does not allow spring assisted common carry knives for neither citizens nor criminals.

"The City of Baltimore has adopted as an ordinance its City Code §59-22, which states in relevant part:

Switch-blade knives. (a) Possession or sale, etc., prohibited. It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, carry, or possess any knife with an automatic spring. (emphasis added)

The description of the charge brought against Gray explicitly provides that he

did unlawfully carry, possess and sell a knife commonly known as a switch blade knife, with an automatic spring or other device for opening and/or closing the blade within the limits of Baltimore City. (emphasis added)

Until the prosecutor releases the evidence, what we have is a "he said/she said" situation. Numerous sources have noted the difference between state and city law. The prosecutor has already been found to have made mistakes in her chargings that her inference of "illegal" arrest is also wrong.

Note: This is easily demonstrated by IL when it comes to their new "shall issue" rules regarding carry permits. Chicago still tries to make it hard for its citizens to obtain permits in an attempt to circumvent the state law which bars municipalities from having different rules for issue of carry permits.

Don't fall for the PC word games. This knife is no more "automatic" by the legal definition than a common semi-auto pistol the press always mistakenly calls an automatic. It's BS and they know it. Shame!!!

As one who actually has a legal education and practices law, will the apparent sloppiness of Mosely's charges have any affect when these officers come to trial (see link)?

According to the article, the information of a number of the officers in the original court documents had wrong identities and information on them--more indication of haste and sloppiness in charging these officers by the prosecutor. Are judges ever influenced by such mistakes--or once exposed as mistakes and corrected, become a non-issue?

You and Kevin may find this of interest.

Here is the wording from the Baltimore Sun paper today.

State law says a person may not "display" a "switchblade" or a "knife or a penknife having a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife."

Baltimore City code says a person can't carry or possess any knife "with an automatic spring or other device for opening and/or closing the blade, commonly known as a switch-blade knife."

And I can't imagine any hunter here at Bowsite doesn't know this is a red herring claim. Except for maybe PZ. :-)

We must keep in mind that Baltimore is/and has been run by the Democrat proregressive liberalism where restrictions on weapons is part of governmental philosophy not of common sense. Knife law attitudes usually parallel gun law. And, MD state law does not come into play when it comes to the city of Baltimore as there is no pre-emption--city law can be more restrictive than state.^* What most of us consider normal legal cutlery on a daily basis is not the same as practiced in cities like Baltimore.

Remember:liberalism (proregressiveism)is a mental disease (aka PZ).

^*This is a good reason to use sites such as handgunlaw.us when traveling with a carry permit.

As you and others should very well know, a spring-assisted knife DOES NOT meet this definition. A spring-assisted knife cannot deploy the blade on its own ... ie "automatically" such as with the push of a button. You must MANUALLY move the knife, the spring assists this manual motion. If moved slowly or stopped halfway, the spring will NOT continue to swing out the blade on its own power. It is not a switchblade by legal definition, it is not automatic in operation, and it IS NOT illegal in Baltimore city.

Worse still - the police know this. Which makes me now question the rest of their claimed story.

You can probably cut and paste claims from various media sources that don't know the difference between spring assisted and automatic spring operation... but it does not make them correct.

In general, only mistakes relating to an element of the crime are important. Changing material elements is done by motion, and can be opposed.

In one case, I represented a fellow charged with a domestic violence assault, a misdemeanor. But someone at the DA's office missed the broken rib bone in the medical report, which turned it into a felony with a mandatory minimum 5 year to 15 year prison sentence. The DA moved to amend the pleadings to include the felony. I had my client immediately plead to the charges......so the prosecution was stuck with the misdemeanor, res judicata. I did that within minutes of learning of the attempt to amend the pleadings.

The DA is still pissed about that one.

You and I know that, but others have to believe it before we can address the root causes. Remember our resident liberal not wanting to look at issues like absentee fatherhood? These types of actions keep the dialogue going and we all know it is going to take a long time for the mind set to change. And it is not going to change by continuing to arrest low level drug offenders for which many of the charges are dismissed. That will only reinforce what certain groups already believe.

The black community has been indoctrinated to hate the Police through music and media for many, many years.

The community organizers, rappers, and celebrities knowingly or unknowingly help keep black people "on the plantation" many to keep their fame, power, and money.

Obama being president has taken it to a higher level an got it more attention from the media with comments like the police acted stupidly.

Obama and other black leaders have encouraged the "victim" mentality and brought about "white guilt" where white people won't speak up about the "Root Cause."

Only some black conservatives will speak out and many of them are afraid of being labeled "Uncle Tom."

There are plenty of police brutality cases against every race but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.....

Reminded of that comedy skit "Lowered expectations"...the black rioters may be so disappointed that the six cops are not immediately hung, that they will again resort to community sanctioned protests and looting.