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Since the vast majority of mutations are harmful or fatal what exactly is a "beneficial mutation" that adds new information to a genome. And, how many "beneficial mutations" does nature need to form, say, a pouch, a highly sophisticated nose, a brain, an eye, etc, etc, etc,.

Evolution is a lie. We have a Creator.

A lot of people want to jump on theistic evolution band wagon but it doesn't work either because science doesn't support the evolutionist's time line of millions and billions of years.

The Bible tells us all things were created by a Supernatural means. The Bible tells us it happened in six ordinary days, not very long ago. The scientific evidence supports that. The bible also tells us dinosaurs were created on the same day as Adam and Eve - day six. Is there evidence of cohabitation - yes, all kinds of evidence; tracks, drawings, fresh tissue.

Nature can't originate all that we see, only God, the Supernatural, can do it.

If there is an unwritten law in the field of science, it is this: Thou shalt not discover anything that even suggests that evolution could be wrong. And a second unwritten law is like unto it: If you do discover anything that undermines evolution, keep it to yourself.

A scientist was fired from his job at California State University, Northridge, after discovering fossil evidence that supports a young earth and then publishing his findings. While at a dig at Hell Creek formation in Montana, scientist Mark Armitage came upon the largest triceratops horn ever unearthed at the site. When he examined the horn under a high-powered microscope, he was shocked to see soft tissue. This discovery stunned other scientists because it indicated that dinosaurs roamed the earth only thousands of years ago rather than 60 million years ago.

In Armitage's wrongful termination and religious discrimination lawsuit, court documents revealed that a university official challenged his motives by shouting at him, "We are not going to tolerate your religion in this department!" Armitage joins a growing number of scientists and educators who have lost their jobs for challenging the sacred cow of evolution. Many institutions of higher learning are no longer interested in pursuing the evidence wherever it may lead. They only care about evidence that leads them straight to their foregone conclusion that evolution is a fact.

Creationists need not fear any new scientific discovery because nothing can successfully contradict the Word of God!

You really have to wonder...

This conclusion was bases on what?....and you can't use science for your answer, cuz that is the devils work.

This is a subtle improvement over the previous creationist statement that there are no beneficial mutations but it still isn't accurate. Most mutations are neutral and a 'harmful' mutation in the right environment can be beneficial.

To the original post, they are finding more cases of soft tissue in dinosaur bones every year and most of the discoverers are not fired because of it. If your premise is true, you have to explain why all those folks (Schweitzer, Horner, et al) haven't been driven out of the field by the evil 'evolutionists'.

From the link - "The world-wide preservation of soft tissues from all periods of time undermines estimates of the earth’s age. The evidence is compatible with the age of the earth in thousands of years – not millions of years. What CSUN acutely understands, though – preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur fossils is only compatible with a young-age of the earth.

Armitage’s saga highlights how evolution entrenched academia continues to follow dogma while ignoring the scientific evidence.

Scientific evidence supports the Genesis account of creation. Evolution was once a theory in crisis, now evolution dogma is in crisis without even a theoretical mechanism.

Biological evolution exists only as a philosophical fact, not as a scientific fact."

So, Like I said God bless, Steve

(BTW - in Armitage/Miller's paper, they dated the material at 35000 and 41000 years ago. Doesn't that pre-date your universe by ~30000 years?)

Sixby - if god designed the universe (14 bya), earth (5 bya), life on earth (4 bya), evolution and everything else, he is probably pissed that humans wrote it down wrong 2000 years ago and even more pissed that people today still are trying to defend that bad dictation.

ar troy - a catpanzee?

I am not adverse to real science but when people that call themselves scientist ignore pertinent and salient facts and information because it does not conform to their preconceived and ill conceived ideas and concepts of what may have happened concerning life and theory then they are not real scientists seeking truth but are willingly ignorant and in darkness.

All real science points to creation and evolvment within species but never to evolvement or drastic change outside of species.

Another thing. Real believers do not have to prove God , creation or the existence of God because they have knowledge and understanding of God and of how things were formed. We know this will prove out to believer and un-believer alike in a very short time. I do not feel the need to put any of you down for what you believe or do not believe.

It does seem like some desperately feel the need to be superior to others in intellect and to literally and figuratively rub their faces in the dirt. It shows a great degree of false bravado and reveals the question that lurks in the back of their minds. What if these guys are right and there really is a creator that is in control and exists? The more you protest and beat the wind with your arms, fighting against God and His reality the more it shows to all of us that you are really insecure in what you feign to believe. And why not? After all your science continually evolves and changes . God does not.

God bless, Steve

There was in fact a dinosaur that Ellen DeGeneres evolved from. It was called a lickalotapuss.

I know,I know, I'll go to my room now.

There are plenty of ancient pictures of dinosaurs. There are also not so ancient artifacts that are passed off as authentic. Still the authentic old ones do exist. I just googled up dinosaur cave drawings and this came up. (link)

There are also dinosaur tracks and human tracks in the same sedimentary rock layers. Yes, man and dinosuars coexisted, just as the Bible tells us.

SirHunter12 - what you say you observed is not evolution but de-evolution.

Amoebus - I don't know why Schweitzer and Horner didn't get fired. Maybe because of those preconceived ideas about preservation are incorrect. If they tell us soft tissue can remain for tens of millions of years, will you believe it?

Iktomi - "Preservation of soft tissue does not undermine an old earth." Yes, it does - big time.

ar troy - That's a whole bunch of pesky beneficial mutations that have to occur. I wonder what the "probability" of that happening is? Oh yes, now I remember, the probability is impossible, very impossible. Probability is no friend to evolution.

"Male athletes are nothing like male "warriors" thousands of year ago. And women.....oh lord how the ladies are NOTHING like they were thousands of years ago."

Also says this:

"I guess you met Adam and Eve personally so that accurate comparisons can be made?"

And then says this:

"You biblical nuts just love to make up your own rules don't you."

I'll believe my faith, you go ahead and believe yours, scooter.

"Where did they go. The dinosaurs that is."

Certainly no expert, but I'd say more than a few of them are still here.

The way I see it...........evolution and creation coexist.

One of God's days could have been a billion years, or just a 24 hr period with a billion years worth of evolution done (maybe His watch runs a little fast).

But what about Adam and Eve and the supposed development from primates?

Simple. Evolution took place there too, except Adam was the first creature to be given a soul (made in His image and if of a spirit.....)

The concept works pretty good, unless you're a fundie.

The dinosaur fossils we dig up are the end product of Noah's Flood. Still, there are a few who are looking for a live dinosaur in the Congo.

Evolutionists have some 65-70 different ideas of how the dinosaurs came extinct some 65-70 million years ago. (Pretty long time for soft tissue to be preserved).

For a creationist, dinosaurs were on the Ark with Noah and came off the Ark after the flood to repopulate.

We can see from old art that man was in there killing dinosaurs with his sword and his spear.

Besides being hunted to extinction by humans some creationists believe post flood environmental conditions were not conducive to survival.

The demise of the wooly mammoths is another one that's interesting.

longboman - Please tell just what de-evolution means....to you?" That's easy. It means God created two perfect human beings, and today about 6,000 years later your looking at a human race far from perfect. The Bible, God's Holy Word, tell us Adam lived to be 930 years old. I bet you and I don't make it to 100.

Arrogantly stated, as if the claim that this same creature, minus enough time, is a single celled organism which is the common ancestor for everything from peaches to platypus.

These too, are Australian crocodiles. See what happens when your pre-conceived notions prevent you from actually thinking?

From cradle to grave we are spoon fed evolution. How dare anyone question the age of the earth. Our text books are written by secular humanists and evolution is their religion. But, when we stop and actually look at the scientific evidence with biblical creationist glasses, the evidence falls right in place with the biblical account of creation.

Do not confuse micro-evolution with evolution. Micro-evolution, i.e., change over time, is nothing but natural selection. New information is not being added to the genome. What's happening is information that God programmed into that organism's genome is being selected.

Remember, before you get to micro-evolution you have to get from nothing and go through other things, like stellar evolution, chemical evolution, macro evolution and a couple other. Our great, great, great, great............_______grandfather was not a rock.

longboman - the link is for you.

Genetic mutations produce new genetic material, but do these lead to macroevolution? No truly useful mutations have ever been observed.

Jim - the scientific evidence supports a young earth and universe. Here's some if you care to check them out:

Rapid Disintegration of Comets,Sediment on the Ocean Floor, Sodium (Salt) in the Oceans, Carbon-14 in the Atmosphere, Helium in the Earth's Atmosphere, History is Too Short, Population Statistics, Oil and Gas Deposits, Polystrate Fossils.

Keep your eye upon Jesus!

longboman - I'm glad you asked. The answer is because of Satan. It is he who is the Father of All Lies. Evolution is not going to happen by natural means. You have to start thinking Supernatural.

The truth, finally. Odd that folks like you see fit to insult and denigrate people of one religion, when you just admitted that your faith is simply a different religion.

"You biblical nuts"

"biblical fools"

"nuts and truly needs help"

"somebody has to fall off the turnip wagon"

"while he took a boat ride on the arc, he played patty cake with a wildebeest"

"believe the fallacy's"

"spun to fit what your ideology"

All your quotes, scooter. Kettle, the pot is calling. The spelling and grammar errors are a nice touch, however, while you are insulting other's intelligence.

The same God who created this universe and gives us His Holy Word can also preserve His Holy Word. So instead of believing God your going to believe Richard Dawkins. Keep your eye upon Jesus!

If that isn't condescending double talk I don't know what is.....

God bless, Steve

I agree with you 100%. You have to define the terms!

The reason atheism is so tied to ToE is because naturalistic evolution does not invoke God.

Straight Arrow - Not condescending double talk, just a fact.

Sixby - "Some will never receive the things of God, Knowledge, wisdom, understanding , peace that passes understanding in terrible times, faith, hope, charity."

Your being kind. That word "Some" should be changed to "Most"

"I agree with you 100%. You have to define the terms!"

So what's your excuse, TF? Evolutionary biology is very well defined. Yet you constantly repeat misrepresentations from your pals at AIG. Better you get to cracking on the biology books, instead of trusting a fraud and hustler like Ken Ham. ======================================================= "The reason atheism is so tied to ToE is because naturalistic evolution does not invoke God."

You really DID go there. Hahaha!

The reason atheism is so tied to nuclear physics is because nuclear physics does not invoke God.

The reason atheism is so tied to geology is because geology does not invoke God.

The reason atheism is so tied to hydraulic engineering is because hydraulic engineering does not invoke God.

The reason atheism is so tied to astronomy is because astronomy does not invoke God.

The reason atheism is so tied to cancer research is because cancer research does not invoke God.

The reason atheism is so tied to oceanography is because oceanography does not invoke God.

The reason atheism is so tied to aerodynamics is because aerodynamics does not invoke God.

See a pattern there, TF?

ALL science...ALL of it, is the study of natural phenomenon. By definition it CAN'T "invoke God." The minute someone invokes God as an explanation for naturally explainable things, it is no longer science. I don't see you getting wound up about other sciences....why so hypocr....errrr...selective?

Iktomi, lets go ahead and define terms. I'll do science. You can define ToE for us.

Science - "The systematic observation of natural events and conditions in order to discover facts about them and to formulate laws and principles based on these facts. The organized body of knowledge that is derived from such observations and that can be verified or tested for further investigation" Ref: Academic Press Dictionary of Science and Technology 1996.

Science - "Knowledge acquired by careful observations, by deduction of the laws which govern changes and conditions and by testing these deductions by experiment." Ref: The New Webster's Library of Practical Information 1990

Science - "The observation, identification, descriptions, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena." Ref: Microsoft Encarta 97 Encyclopedia 1997

Iktomi, there are two commonalities between each of the above definitions. The ability to observe the event or process and the ability to test the event or process.

Science can be classified into categories depending on how evidence is viewed. There is "Empirical Science", this is scientific evidence which can be directly observed, tested and repeated in carefully constructed experiments. The stuff that give us gadgets and puts men on the moon.

There is Origins or Historical Science - these involve events that occurred in the past. They cannot be directly observed, tested or repeated.

And there is Theoretical Science. This is scientific evidence which cannot be directly observed but can be modeled through mathematics and computers.

We have learned from empirical science that evolution, goo to you, particles to people, life from non-life, is a lie. Evolution has been 'falsified' by empirical science

Lets hear your definition of the theory of evolution.

Are you an atheist?

...and no I am not an atheist..I believe in God.

Your argument above is not logically valid because you start by making many references to various fields of study; physics, biology, etc. and then say this:

"ALL science...ALL of it, is the study of natural phenomenon."

Science is a process or method defined by theory, testing, observation, re-testing, and finally, conclusion. By that definition, neither atheism, evolution or creationism meet the standard. No one can observe or test for it's conclusions nor observe it.

Oh, and TF is correct with his definitions above.

I've avoided this conversation up 'til now because my stick is worn out. I just had to interject this once.....I am a chemist.

You can observe evolution all you want.....it's going on everywhere all around you today and everyday...but you are right you can't observe creationism because it is a myth.

It would take a miracle from God to preserve that soft dinosaur tissue for tens of millions of years.

Straight Arrow - which god do you believe in? The God of the Bible?

I looked hard all day but didn't see any lizards turning into birds.

Hmmm...well that's strange TF. during your observations, did you happen to see any evidence of the ark they arrived on? Or better yet have you seen any dirt being turned into men, or perhaps a rack of man-ribs being turned into a centerfold model or two?

"They even hate God to the point that they purposely write God with a small g."

Really?!? LOL! Sixby, if you ever refer to the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" to signify evolution, we would appreciate it if you'd capitalize it. Otherwise you'll just be confirming the hate (in gods name) you are already being accused of! That goes for you too TF!

Damn...I tried like 'Hell' to stay out of this one and did a pretty good job of until now. I was afraid I'd bite the tip of my tongue clean off!

“Do you believe in life after delivery?” The other replied, “Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.”

“Nonsense” said the first. “There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?” The second said, “I don’t know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can’t understand now.”

The first replied, “That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.”

The second insisted, “Well I think there is something and maybe it’s different than it is here. Maybe we won’t need this physical cord anymore.” The first replied, “Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one has ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.”

“Well, I don’t know,” said the second, “but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.” The first replied “Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That’s laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?”

The second said, “She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.”

Said the first: “Well I don’t see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn’t exist.”

To which the second replied, “Sometimes, when you’re in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.”

God bless, Steve

Its good to know you aren't a Muslim. I assume that means you won't be offended when I say, "That's ONE of the most ridiculous claims I have EVER heard from a devout Christian...EVER!!

P.S. As a creationist you're supposed to know about the FSM. Just ask TF, he'll fill you in on what you're religion is supposed to believe or not.

I figured all you guys were on the same page since you all believe the same thing. You guys remind me of scientists!! Lol!

Likewise....

How dare you bring solid facts to this forum.

Theories are not facts. definitely not solid facts. And no you nor anyone else can explain the universe without the creator. God spoke it all into existence. No one can disprove that fact.

....is merely another way of saying the same thing as everything came from nothing. I do not presume to tell God how the universe should work.

To my way of thinking only God could create a situation where everything comes from nothing....even if God's role was simply to make the rules that allow that to happen.

Some people think if you wait long enough everything possible as well as everything that is impossible will happen and God is not needed. I'm not in that camp yet.

longboman - can you show us one of your found missing links please.

SA - since we both believe in the same God we probably learned about Him from the same source - The Holy Bible. That same Book tells us Jesus is the one who did the creating.

That one has me a little stumped too.

I'm not angry about anything. I just simply amused by the hypocrisy that runs rampant every time this topic is discussed. I don't care if you agree or not. Like you, in an effort to contribute to your well being, I'm compelled to share the truth with those of you that seem to be misguided! LOL!

HA/KS- You'll be just as capable of recognizing your physical and spiritual existence after you die as you were when you were in the womb. The only difference is that you won't be able to speak English and use proper grammar as well as you could in the womb!

SirHunter, non of the above. God created Adam in his image both spiritually, mentally and physically. Then His statememt was it is good. Didn't need changing at that time. No you do not have links. You may have interbreeding and species within a species but you do not have any links where one species evolved into another species. Ar Troy: Jesus did do the creating. In John it explains this. All things were made by Him and for Him and without Him were all things made both in Heaven and on Earth. Jesus is the God of Creation. He is the manifestation of the Living God. No man has seen God at any time, the Son has revealed HIm unto us. Great is the mystery of Godliness, God was manifest in the flesh,

God bless, Steve

ar troy - yes, John 1:1-18

"Adam and Eve according to your own accounts are not as old as what we have dated with science/discovery. You basically are inserting Adam/Eve into the timeline so you fill good about your beliefs."

I'm giving you the timeline God gave us in His Sacred Scripture. Adam and Eve are at the beginning of our timeline.

Day 1 God makes light. Day 2 God makes the sky. Day 3 God makes the seas, dry land and plants. Day 4 God makes the sun, moon and stars. Day 5 God makes the fish and the birds. Day 6 God makes the animals and the first human beings. Day 7 God rests. Oh yes I almost forgot - and Day 8 God creates Marines.

You want to question a timeline you need to question that evolutionary timeline. Soft dinosaur tissue after 70 million years? Of course, the timeline is correct it's the presupposed evolutionary ideas about tissue preservation that are wrong. Talk about denial.

You need find out more about Jesus. He has been/is the most important person on the face of the earth in human history.