As a eagle scout and long time scouter (leader), I too believe Robert Gates is systematically destroying this great organization.
This is a PRIVATE organization with a set of rules, now those rules are being changed because of minority pressure. Unbelievable.
I take a biblical stance on homosexuality and have known boys in the troop over the years that were. They did not, however stand and shout it from the rooftops.
The organization of BSA has not nor should not care what your sexual orientation is. It should be don't ask don't tell. How is the organization better, if boys and men now are encouraged to stand up and tell everyone they are gay?
We are being made to swallow a pill that is totally unnecessary.
James
And I don't mean that they would necessarily be touching them either. It simply the same reasoning that there are men's and womens's separate changing/lavatory facilities.
We live in a sick, sick world.
These people have gone way beyond simply not wanting to be persecuted for their ways, but DEMANDING that we accept their ways and LIKE it.
When pigs fly. And stay away from my kids!!!
Yup. And a suicide to boot.
I think opening the position to the truthful men who will honor their commitment can only improve the overall quality of the leadership.
Reality may not be as attractive as fantasy, but it's usually the best policy in the long run.
Yes, there have been gay men in scouting secretly and that was bad enough. So now it's OK as long as they're "honest" about it?
Sorry, not with my kids. Not ever.
So let me get this straight, a child molester wants to make sure he's at least welcome to join first? Are you f%%king kidding me?
At least have a valid argument for hells sake.
Your argument is just like the anti gunners who think people with concealed weapons permits go and get them so they can break the law at a later date.
Sexual preference doesn't mean they wanna hump everything.
Not every gay man would find you attractive just the same as every straight woman doesn't want you to bang her lights out. Good grief people, get a grip and let's fight the real battles.
I guess you'd be perfectly okay with a straight man taking your daughter and a bunch of the Girl Scouts in her troop out on a camp-out? Sleeping in the same tents, showering in the same shower house? Because that's what this is.
But the question stands.....
I'm a straight male. Would you have no issue with me using the same restroom/locker room that your wife/daughter uses?
If you say no, then kudos to you, you're consistant. But if it's NOT OK for me because I'm straight, but it's fine for a gay man that's alright???
-Frankly, helicopter moms are more threatening to the BSA than gay folks. We have bigger issues.
gay leadership and no squirt guns
historic progress
Got it.
And once again, I NEVER, EVER said a word about any TOUCHING. That's what YOU seem to be hung up on. If there's any touching of children involved, gay/straight/whatever, then find a tall tree and a short piece of rope.
Once again, if you have no problem with a straight male seeing your wife/daughter in a locker room/restroom then I guess you feel the same about your boy and a gay man. Or don't you?
Because your question has nothing to do with anything?
You're choosing to make it about something it's not.
So keep running yourself.
Can't make it about something it's not and then act like others are running from you.
At least make a valid complaint.
At least have factual information.
Let's just say that you have a two sets of rules for straight and homosexual people and if anyone DARES question that then all you can do is bad mouth it.
Your responses speak for themselves DC.
I find it ridiculous that you're advocating segregation.
Bathrooms are about gender and nothing more
Do you guys seriously believe that there are droves of gay men willing and ready to donate their time to become a scouter?
Have any of you guys realized the reason this is an issue is because you've helped make it one?
Why are gays being loud mouthed about the scouts? Because people have told them they can't have or do things.
The problem never would've been a problem and wouldn't be a hot topic and the gays today would have to go piss off some other group if they weren't allowed their day in the sun.
Denying them is giving them their day. Do you f%%kin people not Get that you're feeding it?
Do I like the pressure that these groups try to levy on groups? No I don't. I don't like it a bit.
But for Christ sakes, let's at least debate it with intelligence instead of worrying about whose taking a piss with you.
You think that there's only a few that think gays and pedophiles are one in the same?
I believe you realize that is an absurd belief.
So again, if your largest complaint is that some gay dude takes a piss next to your son, then I'd say you've got it pretty good.
No scout master will escort the boys to take a leak. Gay or straight
And they aren't sharing a tent, or a fork, Or a toothbrush.
And they aren't lining up in droves to volunteer.
I find it ridiculous that you won't answer a simple question, and that now it's the fault of "you f%%kin people".
Way to win an argument DC, by belittling and being abrasive and ignoring the question.
Well, this "f%%kin person" is going to bed. Good night.
Total wussification of a once-great organization. The left won't rest until boys become girls and girls become men.
Scouts isn't what it once was. I have kids in the program and I don't care for it at all.
But I am smart enough to know that it isn't because of the gays.
But evil will always seek out good things to destroy, and that is what we are seeing today. It is sad.
"I have kids in the program and I don't care for it at all."
If you don't care for it, then get them out of it. You are in control, right?
The scouts gave young men Skills? Yeah I'll take that
But there's also the fathers and grand fathers responsibilities to teach and do those things too.
But what's being done inside your own family, sons, grand dads, what's being passed along that is actually surviving today?
What are you doing or what did you do with your sons to promote back breaking, honest work? And has what you taught survived?
Did you see it through or did you expect it to be taught through an organization?
We didn't need the scouts to teach honesty and integrity. That's what parents are for.
Think I'll take a pass.
Therefore, the question isn't even a relevant one.
The question should be, do you have a problem with a straight man coaching your daughters gymnastics team.
Some of you guys can't seem to understand that the leadership doesn't shower, sleep or take a crap while the kids are present. It doesn't happen if they're gay, straight or bisexual. It doesn't happen the way you seem to think.
I will not answer such an absurd question that has no merit or any clout.
Take the PC BS and answer the question that begs to be answered which nature has answered long ago.
Who would homosexuals, gay men...(allow me to be kind in the new kinder gentler nation thing)...prefer to approach to engage in sexual relations which excites them, a male or female? That's all. One question one answer. Not your great aunts second uncle who had 3 teats would be more likely...or any other fractured concocted story to lay a defense...just the answer.
Straight forward... gay men get excited by sex with other men gay or otherwise just as straight men get excited by sex with women...gay or otherwise.
Keep gay men and their excited sexual advances ( of which by natures own admonition is uncontrollable) away from male children. Period.
The sins of other men of opposing sexual orientation could fill reams we know that. We are talking about gay men and JUST gay men at this point. The guillotine will be honed razor sharp for the former and raised just high enough for a clean cut.
Forgetting the previous kinder gentler nation thing...I would not trust a gay man in a cucumber patch to leave empty handed. All this said with a gay member in my family.
At any rate concerning boy scouts or boys in general...why take the chance?
The Rock
1) The BSA
2) The BLTQPBG,etc
This 'change' benefits one, not both, pick a side
and for those in the ever evolving acceptance crowd, pedophiles are the next great outcast group to get behind, they're born that way
The Rock
PGTBLTQ= Bi/Les/Trans/Quest?/Pedo/Beasto/Gay, et cetera, insert latest deviant craze as it becomes mainstream and demands respect
As an ex-scout leader, I find it sad that the national BSA had to bend to the politics of gender and political correctness. I have seen a number of troops in the area cease to exist due to lack of participation.
IMHO, it is a direct result of the decline in our society's standards of morality. When my son was involved, I noticed a number of the cubs/scouts were from single moms who looked towards the scouts as a replacement/supplement to the lack of an involved father/male in their children's lives.
My son became less interested in scouting as the local chapter aligned their activities with the national agenda. There were much less activities directed towards traditional scouting (knots, woodcraft, outdoors/camping and more to community involvement. We actually met some scout groups that had never ever participated in a weekend campout!
We can see that the national council has thrown themselves and the BSA on the alter of political correctness with their announcements about water guns and balloons, let alone their views about sexual orientation.
If one looks at the scout manuals of the past and compare them to the current, one can see that there is a much different BSA than when I was a scout. Realizing that much has changed since the beginnings and new skills must be recognized, the changes to scouting is easily seen in the merit badges that can now be obtained.
If scouting continues, it may will be a different group as local councils may separate themselves from the nationalBSA's policies and adopt new identities--Traditional Scouts of America (for example).
Like all good things, the reprogressive left has to destroy by infection.
Yes I realize it. I have a right to make an issue out of it. Why? Simple, I have a right to know who is going to be a scout master to my child. Second the BSA has a responsibility to it's members to create a safe environment for the kids who . Allowing gay leaders puts the organizations safety/integrity in question with parents. Result will be not as many kids will be scouts. The BSA may go out of existence because they have been politically pressured to allow gay leaders is a poor decision. I wouldn't want a gay leader around my children. That is my right. I would make my opinion known to the BSA. If I didn't get a scout master to my satisfaction. My child won't be in the BSA.
As with all great cultural institutions, seedy influences want to pervert and change them. The homosexuals have assaulted everything that way.
It was all foretold.
I've got a close friend that is a scout master and he is really glad his boys are almost done so he can get out. There is a whole lot of disenchantment with the leadership. They made the mistake of leaning too heavily on corp. sponsorship for their finances.
Glad to hear there are new organizations rising up to take the place of BSA.
Oh, DC won't answer because he is blinded. It's a rhetorical question he refuses to answer.
To those who complain that Scouting isn't the same as it was 30-40-50 years ago, I say bunk. I also say, get off your duff and go fix it. Scouting is run by volunteers, so you get leadership from those who will take the time to do it. Sometimes the only ones who will volunteer are not the best leaders- that doesn't mean that they don't try. Each unit is only as good as the leaders and the way that they can inspire the boys- and their parents- to participate. Your unit doesn't camp every month? Why is that? Possibly because the Scout leader can't find a second leader or parent to go with them. Possibly because the boys have track practice, or chess club, or video games that are more important to them and the parents don't parent and make them go camping. There's lots of reasons, and it shouldn't be because the program is flawed- because it isn't flawed when properly run by properly trained leaders.
Maybe someone can tell me how the values of scouting aren't just as relevant now- if not more so- as they have ever been? Kids learn differently today, there is no doubt about that. Units are run differently today, no doubt about that. There are lots of reasons why they are different, not all for the better, but if leaders will get trained and follow the program then the boys will learn and will enjoy Scouting.
Gay leaders? Gay youth? I don't give a rip as long as they follow proper procedures and guidelines and are trained. In all my years of scouting, we have never talked about sex in any way around a campfire anyway. I've overheard boys in tents talking about girls, but a quiet reminder that the tent walls are thin usually corrects that. I'm not worried about some gay leader joining Scouts in an attempt to "recruit" boys or to get a chance to molest a boy. When proper guidelines are followed there is never an opportunity for that to happen anyway.
Water guns prohibited? Big deal. I've never had a watergun fight at scouts since I became a Cub Scout in 1974. There are lots of other more productive ways to have fun anyway. Non-issue.
Corporate Funding? Yeah, at a National level it could be an issue. But, at a local level the local councils have to raise their own funds to run their local programs. Mr. Private Business Owner usually sees the importance of Scouting and gives generously.
If you don't like how Scouting is being done, then volunteer and fix it instead of whining about it. In the 15 years I spent as Scoutmaster, I missed out on hunting opportunities, auctions, sporting events, etc. because I was out with the boys in a tent. One year, I laid in my sleeping bag opening day of Turkey season listening to 3 gobblers mouth off to each other while I was out on a campout. But, I was with boys who needed a leader so there I was.
As a Scoutmaster I spent probably three hours a week in meetings, plus a two-hour Roundtable meeting once a month, plus one weekend every month on a campout, plus often another Saturday or part of a Saturday doing some other Scouting activity, plus the many hours of training that was required- including taking a full week of vacation time to attend Woodbadge. On top of that was the record-keeping and planning meetings and Unit Committee Meetings and fundraisers and so forth. The pay wasn't so great, either. In fact, I often paid out of my pocket for things that I needed and that my scouts needed but couldn't afford. I don't say any of this to toot my own horn, but only to explain why it can be difficult to find a good, active leader who will make a proper investment in the boys and in the program. How many of you are willing to pick up that ball and run with it?
What it all boils down is this: Are these the values that you want your son/youth to know and to internalize? "Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, & Reverent." "On my honor I will do my best do do my duty to God and my Country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." "Do a Good Turn Daily." "Be Prepared." If they are the values that you want them to learn, then get involved beyond whining about someone else not doing it.
Very well written and certainly from the heart
It has always been amazing to me how many people like you there are , that are so dedicated to preserving a heritage and doing so with none or very little monetary compensation
You and others do it for the pure satisfaction of helping others in spite of the changes that the generations bring
Unfortunately the CF these days has a very vocal group of yappers not workers. This place has really changed over the years and not for the better.
That makes it more special when someone like you comes along and puts a real life perspective on a subject you know something about not a guess based on zero real world experience
Thank You !
There is still not a better organization in the world for a boy to become a young man. There are great troops and there are lame troops. Usually, through "free market rules" the lame troops go away and the boys gravitate to the great troops. Boys join for the outdoor activities and a troop should be camping at least 9 times a year, plus a summer event (high adventure or camp).
In a good program the boys are having fun and don't even realize that they are learning life skills and progressing, until one day they wake up (usually about the age of 13) and they are just a few small steps away from earning their Eagle Scout rank. In the process they have learned to save lives, tie a minimum of six useful knots, identify plants and animals, survive in rough situations, respect authority, and look to assist someone in anyway possible each and every day.......That sound like a program that is "going out of style"?
DC - you commented that the parents should be teaching this and I agree. We currently have 25 active boys and 10 of them have single moms, who's teaching them?
Now for my original point, the program has survived with homosexual leaders and boys for a long time. The difference was that no one asked and we didn't care because it is not important to the program. Sexual preference does not, nor has never NO BEARING or PLACE in the program. As One-Eye pointed out, an adult is never alone one on one, we don't tolerate any sexual conduct or contact. Zero tolerance for all involved, regardless of homosexual or heterosexual. It doesn't belong and has always been shut down.
So why is it being forced on us now? How will the program be any better if a boy or a man is now encouraged to stand up and state that they are gay?
It won't!!! All it does is make it more difficult for us leaders. Yet another hurdle for us to jump while spending countless hours each week developing young men.
James
I ... as a proud Eagle Scout & Vigil member in the Order of the Arrow had lots in common to talk about while we were killing a few fish.
The BSA is alive and well in many places across this country.
To many whiners these days
The use of paintball guns, laser guns or similar devices may be utilized in target shooting events with council approval and following the Sweet 16 of BSA Safety. Council approval means the approval of the Scout Executive or his designee on a tour permit specifically outlining details of the event. (However, law enforcement departments and agencies using firearms in standard officer/agent training may use their training agenda when accompanied with appropriate safety equipment in the Law Enforcement Exploring program.)
What are you measuring it on, anything qualitative?
James
The troop that meets at our church still adheres to traditional scouting practices and traditions but on a large scale, the change has begun. This is how the left works...slowly, small increments, baby steps. I think over time the BSA will morph into something that is far removed from the original organization.
So call me whatever names you like, but that's how it is, and it ain't changing.
James
Well...it may be OK for YOUR son, but NOT mine. Yes, they are there and that's been bad enough. Now because they want to be "open" about it it's supposed to be OK to have my son eyeballed by a gay man? NEWS FALSH......IT'S NOT! Just like I would have had the same reaction to a straight man in that same situation with my daughter.
If they do want to be open about it that's fine, but then they DON'T get to be in those jobs! But we both know that's not what they want. They want to be openly gay and think that the rest of the world is going to think that it's just fine that they are in these positions with children of the same sex.
And as long as we're asking questions, is it OK for me to be in the same changing/bathroom with your wife or daughter? Because it's the SAME DAMN THING!
A local swim club has a job opening for a women's locker/shower room attendent. Should I, as straight male be able to get that job? Of course not. First off, they'd say right up front that it's NOT open for men. Secondly, most of the women would STOP GOING to that swim club!
Having a gay man in a men's locker shower is no different except that unless he's honest about what he is (and doesn't take the job for that reason)he's got the perfect camoflage.
Hmmmm....Bruce Jenner say's that although he wants to have a woman's body that he's not gay.
Maybe he want's that job in the ladies locker room?
If I understand your point, you know that your children will interact with homosexuals and even possibly pedophiles, but you will do everything within your power to protect them. Did I capture it?
Within BSA, an adult (anyone over the age of 18) cannot be in the proximity of a boy in the shower house or ever one on one, without another adult present. This is to take care of the child abuse issues and to project the adults from unsubstantiated reports.
Again, for the record, I love the program. Do not love the sin of homosexuality and do not believe encouraging them to speak of it is good for the program.
Don't think we are that far apart.
James
By the criteria that you just mentioned....
"Within BSA, an adult (anyone over the age of 18) cannot be in the proximity of a boy in the shower house or ever one on one, without another adult present."
...then the openly gay man should have a blindfold on. Get my point? Just like a straight man should have to wear a blindfold if he's in a women's locker room.
To sum it up.....
I'd no sooner want a gay man eyeballing my son in a locker room as I'd want a straight man eyeballing my daughter in a locker room.
Why is this simple fact so hard for some to grasp??
Is that "graspable"?
Wow, I thought I had an above average ability to debate something without losing my cool. I guess not.
James
But to address your last post....
"...is the gay man CANNOT BE in the locker room under the rules..."
What about under the new rules that Robert Gates is proposing where openly gay scout leaders will now be allowed? Will they provide blindfolds for them? Or just not permit them in the locker room?
(I can see the ACLU lawyers becoming aroused right now about that scenario!)
I do believe Robert Gates is hurting the organization. This is a pill that didn't need to be swallowed, in that sexual orientation discussions have not place in the program.
I can only hope that at some point BSA will revert back to an organization with a back bone and no cower to public opinion.
James
What about a Lesbian applying for the job ?
Don't leave the girls out WW
You may not want me here but I am your camp on this one right down line to the letter.....
"... ain't never happened with my children and ain't never gonna happen with my grandson not to my knowledge anyway. If I did find out it would all come crashing down post haste. What many people do not realize is as you age and the bone orchard is in sight you speak your mind TRUTHFULLY without fear of repercussion. Wish I had the ball$ to speak out sooner but it was always the dollars...always the dollars.
The Rock
Is scouting somehow immune from the preference of any group let alone homosexuals? What could possibly be known about scouting that it is exempt from the world in which we live and the makeup of that world to which some do not endorse?
The Rock
Yes I do. And I know I do not want queer BSA scout leaders.
WW: "I'd no sooner want a gay man eyeballing my son in a locker room as I'd want a straight man eyeballing my daughter in a locker room."
Let's go with that.
