Bowsite.com

KANSAS CITY, Kan. — An officer with the Kansas City, Kansas Police Department died Tuesday after he was shot in his car as he approached people matching the description of suspects in an earlier shooting.

Capt. Robert Melton was brought to the University of Kansas Hospital just before 2:30 p.m., but resuscitation efforts did not work, trauma surgeon James Howard said at a Tuesday afternoon news conference.

You know who you are.

Note: NONE of the Officers in Baltimore have been found guilty of any wrongdoing.....

No matter who is at blame, killing cops is inexcusable. Prayers sent to the family.

Henry, hopefully you listened to the GOP Senator and the black Dallas trauma surgeon and their accounts of what they have experienced? Living in an affluent area with many successful families of diverse backgrounds, I can verify that many blacks will testify to having been treated the same, regardless of their socio-economic status.

To not realize that some of these behaviors that cause officers tension with the black community are also a cause of the current climate is just ignorance.

I do not proclaim to know the answer to rectify this, but each side standing there blaming only the other side has so far done nothing but escalate the situation.

"You do not shoot police officers no matter the circumstances."

If you do you may as well shoot yourself at the same time. That was the "law". Nobody needy the heat the police could bring down on the entire neighborhood if you shot one of their own.

Respect. Grudgingly at times but respect none the less. Quietly that went both ways and everything worked out just fine. Today these animals are protected by a government hell bent in the belief of evening a 200 year old score and nothing more. Believe what you may. Some talk it and some lived it.

The Rock

The picture and a thousand words.

The Rock

Sorry to hear that, yet it does not change the fact that we have a problem in this country.

Earlier this year the OK part time deputy who shot a suspect with his pistol instead of his taser as he thought he was ended up being convicted of manslaughter.

This incident led to an investigation that has caused change in how deputies like this one are able to secure positions. The investigation also led to allegations that the deputy did not actually take the classes his records say. I believe the sheriff is no longer the sheriff.

Murdering LE (or anyone else) is completely evil and without justification. That position should not be an excuse to not be able to question tactics.

Like every upheaval in our country, there will be change. I do not mean to insult any officer, yet relaying the outcome of Baltimore and not other incidents is part of the problem.

Officer Slager I am willing to bet will be convicted this fall. On another thread someone else pointed out how each of these episodes is forgotten a short time later. I suggest we watch all of them.

A crime is a crime.

This is not about a team.

Judging every cop guilty or Judging every black man guilty is not being objective.

It is simply an emotional response.

The race baiting President started this mess with "the police acted stupidly".

He is like many of you who automatically rush to judgement on here.

It is so hard for people to be objective and the media preys on that.

Hate is a sad thing....

Please read the link attached, I ask that all do.

Sorry, but the loss of respect is now going your way. I have NEVER, EVER said or implied that murder, premeditated or not, is justified. Quite the opposite.

If you go back to the Bundy threads, I was in full support of the LE using the lethal force necessary as their lives had been openly threatened. Do you remember all of the conspiracy theories in support of prosecuting the police? I did not support those did I Kevin. Do you remember all of the anti-cop rhetoric then? Do you remember me saying 2X the officers had a right to go home safely? If you forgot this, then your words to me are understandable. If not, then I think less of you.

What is the difference between Bundy and these latest episodes? Skin color?

I never gave any credence to this barbaric behavior, and you know that. Have the courage to quit playing to the popular opinion here.

Let's have a talk 5 years from now. Policing will look different.

You have my personal email. Send me a message and I will share 2 emails received in the last 2 days from former students. They will shed light on where my heart is.

I could not agree more with your words. I noticed that you were the only affirmative response on another thread when I pointed out skin color. Your response was "yep".

I have tried to take extreme caution in not taking one side. The police have the most difficult job in our society (excluding the front-line military). My campus has it's own police department and I always greet every officer that I pass and tell them to have a good day.

Yet, since the recent phenomenon of capturing activities on camera, I have grown uneasy that many times an act occurs against a black person there is wide spread justification for it by the regular participants here. I have wondered if this is showing their bias, or worse, racism.

I want all of the evidence to be considered before we render any conclusion. Hope that is fair and balanced like FOX news wants to be, but doesn't quite get there.

I am sure that it happens, but not often. With hundreds of thousands of contacts every day, LE does make mistakes - even very bad ones.

The increase of negative attacks on LE makes this a greater possibility because they are increasingly being forced to view every citizen as an enemy.

many kids have been taught to F the popo from the day they were old enough to listen

oddly, academia supports the erosion, go figure

I hope that this is in jest!

There may be times when an inquiry shows that LE made a mistake, but there is no reason for punishment.

An automatic pass? You do realize that most LE are NOT running for president, don't you?

X2

The respect I had is completely gone. Those words do NOT imply at all that the act of murder is acceptable. 'Climate' is not referring to the act of murder. You are smart enough to know that.

No doubt the police are more on edge and probably more mistakes will happen. Maybe some of you wondered as I did why a resident of my area (KC, MO) went to Baton Rouge to murder police officers. Read the article, draw your own conclusion. Unless and until this is addressed there will be more officer and civilian deaths.

Again, 5 years from now there will be less deaths as a result of criminals with minor infractions not immediately obeying lawful commands. The police on this site already know the newest training includes more of an emphasis on non-lethal confrontation techniques.

And no SA, that is about the stupidest thing I have seen posted here. Cops should not get a free pass for a major mistake that someone loses their life over. If that happened, more mistakes would occur. Human life has more value than that.

today they could not have more complicated rules of engagement and with dash cams and body cams the 2nd guessers come out of the woodwork at them.

They don't get paid enough or trained enough.

"According to The Advocate, the local newspaper, the state troopers, from Michigan and New Mexico, witnessed so much racism and mistreatment from the local police that they rescinded their offer of help and went home. The two agencies filed 12 reports of misconduct that alleged, the paper said, that the local police “repeatedly hassled black people, kicked down doors without warrants, roughed up people who posed no risk, and in one case offered to let a visiting trooper beat an inmate as a thank-you gift.”

There was little punishment of the accused officers. The paper spent years fighting for documents related to the case, and on Sunday, it cited civic leaders questioning the pace of reform.

...

The Advocate published its extensive front-page article on these issues on Sunday — the day that Gavin Long, an African-American man from Kansas City, Mo., fatally shot three officers on a commercial thoroughfare here and wounded three others. The report was quickly subsumed by the unfolding crisis.

Thank you for the clarification.

"They don't get paid enough or trained enough."

Agreed 100% with both parts of that statement!

You are the one weaseling, not me. Here are Bear's words:

"BLUE LIVES MATTER !!! I hope some of you cop bashers here are happy.........you have been part of the problem that has led up to this.......... You know who you are.

Note: NONE of the Officers in Baltimore have been found guilty of any wrongdoing..... "

This thread was supposed to be about the officer killed. Bear brought up that cop bashers have been part of the problem. Yet bad cops are not? At least even you admitted there are bad cops.

Further, he brought up the vindicated Baltimore officers, yet that does not represent all situations does it?

My response is exactly to his about where the blame lies.

Yet his words go unchallenged as several here echo the same sentiment including up to giving cops a free pass for mistakes.

I have been unwavering in my criticism of both sides. I am sure others have concerns when fair criticisms of government activities are attempted to be squelched by telling those asking questions in a respectful manner that they have blood on their hands.

Sorry, but I would be ashamed to call myself a patriot if I agreed with you.

I do not know how much clearer I can make it. Try having some integrity when accusing me of something-which includes being consistent in your criticism of all parties.

KPC"

The case with the CCW holder that was convicted here on the CF as a thug and criminal is yet to be tried.

For the record........ Training regarding the use of deadly force and the use of less than lethal methods when deadly force is not justified has not changed..........

The single most important tool introduced in my career was the taser. There was a LOT more hands on fighting with suspects before tasers..... But at that point in history... most of it wasn't captured on video via cell phones....

Tasers have GREATLY reduced the amount of active resistance and fighting that is done while effecting arrests.... And in turn it has GREATLY reduced the number of injured Officers and suspects alike in said fighting........... This is my perception from 22 years on the job.....not hard core data...

You stated that in the next 5 years there will be less deaths of criminals with minor infractions not obeying lawful commands........

I say that the current state of our country is ENCOURAGING people not to obey lawful commands..........

Hell..... It's encouraging people to shoot the police.............

Unless that changes......it's going to get worse.........not better.........JMHO.

What I would hope to see... Is a withholding of judgement until the facts are in and an Officer involved in an incident has his day in court.....

I have witnessed it here on the Bowsite........that the minute some 30 second blurb of an incident shows up on Youtube..... The armchair quarterbacks come out and the cop bashing begins.......Guilty. Fire them...

Heck....If it happens here...... (It does)...... It's a lot worse in other circles.......

All of our officers are riding double now until further notice.....

With instructions to watch your back.......and watch your partner's back.

That's it.

Wow, just wow. I would love to hear your explanation of how the following is not being consistent with holding both parties to the same standard:

"Nobody here has ever said that LEO's never make mistakes or bad decisions. They are human and they do. If and when they do, they should be held accountable...via the justice system.

I don't know how much clearer any living being could possibly have been in expressing how he holds the police to the same standard of accountability.

By all means lay out your case for failure as you have charged.

I am going to try and respond to each of you indirectly through this message. It is common here to be accused of avoiding responding when a poster does not cut and copy direct quotes from above. That is just not my style.

In regards to the charges of having integrity, The Kansas City Police Officer killed in the line of duty had nothing to do with officers being targeted. This brave officer died as a result of performing his job in dealing with a thug criminal turned cop murderer. This has been known almost from the start. So yes, then accusing "cop bashers" of having anything to do with his death is a lack of integrity, plain and simple. There will never be an apology though. This thread was started about the KC officer. The logic of this view taken to an extreme means anyone critical of police tactics is responsible for every officer's on-duty death by criminal. Best we shut down all criticism, and then we better shut down all criticism of government for fear that anarchy may occur. If that happens, I am old and will die, but I will be on the front lines.

The article I attached, so maybe you can see I am not a cop basher, nor do I want cops to have a free pass, the part that struck me most is that there were at least two departments that rescinded their offers to help Baton Rouge after Katrina because of what they were witnessing. They also filed a minimum of 12 complaints. I took this as evidence that most officers and most LE departments are good and honest and take their responsibilities with the gravity they deserve.

Mike, I don't know how much clearer I can make myself through the years here posting balanced views which have included calling an officer's supervisor recently to make sure they were commended for the manner in which they conducted themselves. I don't just criticize, I want to recognize the kind of behavior that if seen on display more often will help keep officers safer. The fact that you did not participate until this point, that you never still mention my attempts at balance is why I have concluded you are one of those who jump on to the popular thought here. My goal is not to be popular or fit in, and it appears I have accomplished that:) Certainly I have been wrong many a time in my life, but I do not come to conclusions lightly or quickly. Taking the time to read how much thought and research went into what I have said on this topic ought to be evident.

Bear, your words softened and I appreciate that. I appreciate you do not think officers, or anybody else including the SoS, should get a free pass. This approach IMHO will work better in not alienating the public.

I absolutely agree with you that officers should not be "convicted" before all of the facts are known. I feel the same way about criminals though, regardless of skin color. I think even officers should be balanced in not wanting their brothers to be unfairly tried in the court of public opinion, and should also take the same approach and not ever use the powers they have to play judge and jury.

New training is occurring, even if not in your area.

I hope I have responded respectfully to each of you and answered your questions? If not, or further clarification is needed, please just ask.

BTW, the parts of the Convention I saw last night between mowing, I was pleased the Republican party is at least partially making officer safety and support a priority. I was especially pleased when Newt said as much, and then followed it immediately that the occasional bad officer will be dealt with. If both of these happen, support our officers from the public and the government, and weed the bad ones out, officers will receive the respect and gratitude they deserve.

Thanks.

The fact that you did not participate until this point, that you never still mention my attempts at balance is why I have concluded you are one of those who jump on to the popular thought here.

Frank,

I'm sorry you've chosen to ply this tact; if you had bothered to go back and check the threads on the two most recent police shootings you'd see a grand total of ZERO posts from me; so much for jumping on the popular bandwagon. As always I prefer to take time to see how the facts arise and what conclusions can be reasonably drawn from them.

I did peruse those threads and there was certainly no shortage there (and here) of multiple posters who cast aspersions about the two individuals who were killed; again, how you can possibly infer this is a constant habit is beyond understanding.

With regard to my not pointing out your attempts at balance; nice deflection. The issue I raised had nothing to do with you as I had yet to post I certainly could not have made any accusations here that you had failed to be balanced.

The only issue I raised was how you could possibly have concluded KPC was lacking in integrity when he clearly posted (as I copied) evidence that he held the police fully accountable.

On that point you have yet to provide either

a) Evidence that he has a double standard or

b) An admission that you spoke in error.

Please address my point by one of the above options and please do not post another dodge.

Thank you.

I addressed your point, but as usual you must have an interpretation problem.

Here is KPC's first entire post:

"Blue lives do matter Big Bear. But if anyone thinks that the current situation is the responsibility of only one side of this issue, they are mistaken. No matter who is at blame, killing cops is inexcusable. Prayers sent to the family. Henry, hopefully you listened to the GOP Senator and the black Dallas trauma surgeon and their accounts of what they have experienced? Living in an affluent area with many successful families of diverse backgrounds, I can verify that many blacks will testify to having been treated the same, regardless of their socio-economic status.

To not realize that some of these behaviors that cause officers tension with the black community are also a cause of the current climate is just ignorance.

I do not proclaim to know the answer to rectify this, but each side standing there blaming only the other side has so far done nothing but escalate the situation.

Good grief HfW. What respect I had for you is rapidly waning.

KPC"

My first post was fair and balanced and said both sides shared blame. KPC took the entire post and copied it and said what he did which implied he is in agreement with what was said above him. That is point one.

By the time he posted, it is my belief we already knew this was not a targeted cop killing. To say what he did and let stand Bear's implication that somehow cop bashers are responsible for this shooting is a lack of integrity from my perspective. You can try and defend it any way you want, but when accusations fly without sufficient evidence to back it up, that is a lack of integrity. When one person is going to be called out on it, but another not held to the same standard, that is a lack of integrity. It was KPC who used further emails to "tweek" what he meant by his first post, I did not back away from what I have said.

Mike, that is the only answer you are going to receive from me. You have the right to disagree, I have the right to draw a reasonable conclusion. And BTW, not one of you responded to the article and the fact that a deranged lunatic who was on web sites that no doubt shared concerns about the Baton Rouge PD may have been motivated to go there from KC, MO. That that same deranged mad man took action the same day the paper released their front page report. So, it is reasonable to think that deranged individuals may read/see such police conduct and react to it. There is absolutely no justification EVER for this reaction, yet it is plausible that both out of control cop bashers and highly publicized ALLEGED poor police behavior is having an impact. I understand probably zero here would agree.

Thank you.

Like I said, if you are not aware of the link between police conduct and minority relations it is because of ignorance.

You can make an argument that the black community's perception is not what is real, but like I have said before and have been harshly criticized for, perception is reality. A simple google search would show how many cities have outreach programs trying to deal with this challenge.

I would leave it there, all you are doing is convincing me further that you posted something negative that was and remains unjustified.

BTW, AP is reporting another black man was shot in the leg by police today. I am going to side right now with the police. I would expect them nationwide to be totally on edge for any call of a firearm being present. I am less than 2 years away from retirement, and would have to consider putting my papers in early if I had to deal with this mess.

But I do feel that it fans the flame of anti-cop sentiment that breeds a deep hatred for Police Officers among some.......

Listen closely to the words of Sheriff Clarke. He is MUCH better explaining it than me.......

And I agree with every word I have heard him say.

They were Kevin and a stand-up man will always have my respect.

Mike,

I addressed your point, but as usual you must have an interpretation problem.

My interpretative skills aren't the problem Frank, it's your inability to just man up and admit when you've put your foot in your mouth. You addressed nothing; you did every contortionist proud with the twisting, turning and spinning display you trotted out but in the end you ended up looking like the kid, crumbs dropping off his lips, who still insists to his mom he didn't raid the cookie jar.

Everyone knows I manned up because I have not backed down once. Even Bear has enough courage to agree with some of what I posted.

Kevin, perception is reality, how many times do I have to say it, this is for Mike and you both. This is their reality.

And, based off of my experiences documented here, what I have observed in viewing videos, what I have read, what others have said, what DoJ reports like Ferguson even though they did not convict the officer etc... I believe there is foundation to their reality.

Mike, try your bully tactics with someone else. I am not going to "man up" in your words little girl when I have nothing to man up to. Quite the contrary, it takes a little bit of guts to not back down when the views on this web site are so one sided.

Try reading what Koch said in his editorial in the WSJ. I hope he meant different view points need to be expressed, even when they disagree with his.

What a mature response Frank, but not unsurprising. I didn't expect you to "man up"; the time for that was immediately after Kevin pointed out where you were plainly wrong in your response to him.

I'm not going to dignify your infantile challenge to my manhood either; you're beneath contempt if that's the road you choose to take rather than suck up the fortitude to own up to your error. Grow up.

I agree it takes resolve not to back down when you think you're right in the presence of overwhelming opposition; that's not what's occurring here though Frank and we both know it. I also find it ironic (but consistent) that you present your actions as showing resolve while anyone doing exactly the same thing is being a bully. I guess it's true; rationalization is the first refuge of the insecure.

It's a simple matter of you being too pig-headed and lacking the maturity to just admit you put your foot in your mouth. Grow up, it means your human like every one else here.

Pathetic.

I was mocking you. You usually wait to test the wind to see what to say so as to be accepted. You like to come on here and pretend to be the voice of wisdom, you are not, just another phony.

For you and Kevin, one more time. I never put my foot in my mouth on this debate. Quite the contrary. If you and Kevin had intellectual integrity on this debate you would agree that Bear saying "cop bashers" are part of the problem is just as bad as me saying "both sides share blame".

You do not have that integrity Mike, or maturity or character to do so. You are simply like many others here who are too willing to trip over their male appendage to appear to be 100% supporters of police. Just like folks who make stupid statements like police ought to get a pass on mistakes. How come you did not challenge that Mike? Because you lack integrity, it is that simple.

Bear knows that any major police department spokes-person who went public with his comments, there would be hell to pay. That is proof in itself that nationwide departments recognize they have a PR problem that they must deal with.

As for Sheriff Clark, at first he was a breath of fresh air. Now he has so much over-exposure I wonder if he is paid more by his county or FOX News.

Again Mike, you and Kevin both lacked the intellectual integrity to apply the same standards. You both try with some fancy word smithing to make this about me, but all of you know right now that there is not a PD out there that would get away with saying cop bashers are the problem and there is nothing that the police have to do better.

Maybe try reading some, like the stories over the weekend about black police officers being caught in the middle of all of this.

Then maybe some day you can be mature enough and have enough integrity to discuss how major PDs are union and part of their dues may go to political contributions to parties/candidates we conservatives would not want elected. I see some of the same problems I see with education. More changes needed in both, and that can be done without tearing down the majority of both officers and teachers who do a good job with little recognition that is positive.

"Test the wind"? Nice try, but sorry not even close. It's called weighing the evidence, analyzing the facts before rushing to a conclusion. Of course you misunderstand that Frank as rushing to a conclusion is what seems to be your forte.

Whether it's about LEO's, Kevin, me, or the man in the moon you are the prototypical speak first, think later. You can tap dance till the cows come home Frank and you can rationalize even longer but it doesn't change the fact that you made a baseless accusation, got called on it and then doubled down on it.

If anyone here is tripping over their male appendage that would be you Frank; the problem is you're mistaking bravado for resolve and intransigence for integrity. Personally I doubt you'd recognize the latter in either instance; your history seems to run contrary to introspection.

Speaking of reading, try going back to what Kevin actually said, to whom it was said and the context in which it was said. Try that without trying to do the linguistic contortion required to square it with the nonsense you're still peddling.

For the record Frank I don't think Bear was far off the mark saying cop bashers are part of the current problem.

Oh, there's been a festering sore for quite some time and only the most naïve would not acknowledge that. Where you lack integrity Frank is you fail to ask the most basic of questions, "why now?" (cop exectutions in multiples).

Racism? Been around since our grandparents were in diapers.

Police abuse of authority? Probably can trace that back to the bobbies in England who came over on the Mayflower.

Criminals? Since Cain slew Abel.

But cop executions on a weekly, if not daily basis? Nope, that's a new phenomenon. Have an easy source of information (internet, 24/7 cable news) and the race baiters can have a field day.

Now put an agitator in the Oval Office, put his cronies in the Justice department and you're really cooking.

The thing is though Frank that's the tinder and the gasoline but it still takes a match to get the blaze going.

That's where the enablers come in with that last necessary push to set the whole thing off. They feed the narrative and every stop, every shoot if it's a black suspect is instantly racist in nature.

Yes, LEO needs to clean up it's act and throw the full weight of the law at the abusers; those on the outside need the maturity to not speak before all the facts are in.

Of course some twit will just say that's "testing the wind", won't they?

Where, tell us right now or you are a liar, where did I say the police are having daily or weekly executions? never did, in fact I stated 100% the opposite.

Mike,

You keep responding because you are trying to justify a position you staked out that is not supported. I attached articles, referenced polls, pointed out what the only black GOP Senator has said as well as other black prominent individuals and you ignore the evidence because of lack of integrity.

I have never moved away from the position I first stated, that what is going on in the black community with police relations is the responsibility of both parties. While you and a few other hard cores will not admit it is anyone's fault but the black community, the majority of the nation disagrees with you.

You can try in your most authoritative prose and expert blathering, but I never said anything different than what I just stated and this thread is proof of that. Bear had the decency and integrity to soften his position, provide more clarity, however you want to say it, you do not have that same integrity Mike.

As I said, PDs would not come out and say publically that the blame only lies with one side. That is why the majority of all major PDs have out-reach programs. It is why even FOX News reported yesterday that too many officers and young black males fear for their lives from each other in certain communities.

Yes Mike, I am pig headed about the truth. So let me say it again, most cops are brave, under-appreciated public servants who do an outstanding job. There have been enough of the opposite that it has caused a major problem with race relations. Has this been exacerbated by politicians (White House not the only culprit here IMO), journalists, community leaders etc. for their own gain. Absolutely, but they did not create a problem out of nothing. Anyone being honest would know that there have been many stories about heavy handedness (or whatever you want to call it) for years, but video evidence is now causing many to ask if there has not been some validity to SOME of the accusations all along.

One example of blacks complaining for years about the system against them, the differences in sentencing for cocaine versus crack and the latter being more popular in inner cities.

You can come back with more BS Mike but all it proves is you are not informed, lack integrity, or both.

It is crystal clear to me now that as Kevin just touched on the problem is in your ability to see what is written as written without reading into it a personal interpretation.

Let's begin at the beginning and it should be painfully clear.

From Big Bear's very first post:

"BLUE LIVES MATTER !!! I hope some of you cop bashers here are happy.........you have been part of the problem that has led up to this.......... You know who you are."

Pay particular attention to the underlined words Frank. I'll take it on faith you understand fully the meeting of the words "part of the problem".

Now your initial response to Big Bear:

"Blue lives do matter Big Bear. But if anyone thinks that the current situation is the responsibility of only one side of this issue, they are mistaken."

Now since you label yourself as "pig-headed about the truth" then perhaps you'll point out where Big Bear at any time in the above post or even following posts has laid 100% of the blame at the cop bashers?

I could stretch reason a bit an possibly read into this statement of Big Bear's:

"THE BLAME LIES COMPLETELY ON THE SIDE OF EVIL. THE FIRE WAS FUELED BY THE PRESIDENT; AND THE FLAMES WERE FANNED BY ANTI-POLICE RHETORIC"

But I see him referencing "EVIL" and would agree that it describes the killers, the race-baiting from the WH and DOJ and the BLM rhetoric first and foremost.

Your rhetoric is correct up to a point; the actions of the proverbial few bad apples has added to the growing anti-police sentiment in the black community.

As I mentioned above however that is not a recent phenomenon; there have been riots as we well know throughout history, some quite intense, e.g. Watts in 1965, LA after Rodney King in the early 1990's.

Tell me now Frank, in either of those two illustrations how many sniper attacks were there on LE?

For whatever reason Frank when anyone rationalizes the killing of LEO's as somehow being even remotely justified then they are wittingly or unwittingly throwing the metaphorical match and setting things ablaze.

In every escalated situation there is a link in the chain of events that if broken, averts whatever end result may have arisen had the chain remain intact.

For whatever reason Frank it's painfully apparent to me that these LEO/black victim confrontations are to you what waving a red flag is to a bull. You don't look objectively at what is written, you see red, lower your head, and horns thrust forward you charge.

How else could you have possibly misinterpreted my comment about the recent spate of police executions?

Another illustration of this tendency of yours was this response you made to Kevin:

"Sorry, but the loss of respect is now going your way. I have NEVER, EVER said or implied that murder, premeditated or not, is justified."

The bull charged again there Frank. Go back and read, read and read again the post that response is directed towards. Nowhere even with the greatest stretching of interpretation could anyone make the weakest of cases that Kevin implied, yet alone definitely stated you made that claim.

Kevin nailed it in his closing statement; "It is very difficult to have any sort of meaningful discussion when one party continues to misinterpret (either intentionally or not) much of what is being said. Please, for your own sanity, at least try to take the time to digest what is being posted. It will save you a lot of time having to backtrack and having your feelings hurt."

What does the information Mike posted have to do with dis-crediting my original post? Nothing! It is not me having a difficult time comprehending.

Answer me Kevin, exactly what am I being pig-headed about as Mike accused me? Is it my refusal to believe "cop-bashers" had anything to do with the execution of the Kansas City Police officer? We now know this was not a targeted killing.

Am I pig-headed about the not-guilty Baltimore verdicts not being representative of ALL police civilian interactions just like I am of the OK City not being representative.

I can highlight my original post and say I stand by it completely. Bear, again, had the decency to clarify his original position.

So you can understand again, I never said anything about daily executions. So, when one brings that into the discussion to criticize one's expressed point of view, without a firm response of denial, folks may interpret my position is that I believe it. You know this. It is a tactic politicians use against each other. Mike knows this. yes, trying this on me is a lack of integrity plain and simple IMO.

I stand by my original position that both the police and civilians have to agree that middle ground must be found, they both have blame to share. This is not a statement that targeted police executions are justified, they absolutely are not!! It is also a refutation of the point of view that "cop bashers" are the cause of these hideous acts. Just like the view shared here that guns do not kill people, it is not critics who kill cops, it is murderers who do.

And BTW to you, Paul, Bear, Ike, slade JTV etc... I do not participate on any other web sites except QDMA where I am mostly a digester not a poster. You can not find any social or other media postings where I have expressed the views I have here. I shudder to think that an individual who has staked out reasonable positions, even reacted reasonably when I have been on the wrong end of some actions (legal course not taken) would be attacked with such vitriol as I have here. I understand the desire to make this a "safe place" for the brave officers who participate here, I am worried that too many would let the freedoms God gave us and have been bought and paid for in blood, erode away because of a desire to show approval.

I am utterly amazed when some, sorry Spike Bull, stake out such an anti-government position with every conspiracy you can think of, hardly question the truth of what has happened in some of these events.

I am utterly amazed when some say they want to wait for all of the evidence when officer slager is accused of shooting an unarmed black man 8 times as he runs away but are not willing to extend the same back to every black male accused of some crime. Yes, if I was black, I would have a problem with reading some of what is posted here.

Kevin, my response to mike two previous posts above was a mockery of his attempt to use the old tactic of questioning someone's toughness. At 57, I know who I am and I laugh when guys use that tactic. It means they know they lost on points so let's get personal.

If anyone here has avoided answering, it is both of you. Bear should have been criticized as much as I was at a minimum for staking out a position that cop bashers had anything to do with this officer's death.

I have read, and I comprehend what was said. I am not buying it, and I know for a fact many others are not as well.

Pure, well-spoken pugilism. Certainly not the baser form of English we usually see.

I'm glad I'm on the back end of my career. I could retire tomorrow if I decided to.....

I really feel for the guys just starting out in Law Enforcement.......

And can't think for the life of me why they would want to.

By the way... Have you seen the video footage on You Tube of the Shooter in Dallas executing one of the Officers ?? It's HORRIFIC.

The respect is completely gone now. You should of had the decency to apologize for your first post here when it was pointed out that this was not a targeted cop killing.

Quit having double standards, which you have done continuously on this thread.

Mike, and you both used the information like the "executions" to try and argue my position was wrong. You both took to extreme positions, which was and is not my view. It is an argument some use to try and say there is only one side to this problem. That is dishonest and lacks integrity.

My view is that WITHOUT the killings on both sides, there are problems between the minority community and police. That is what the Senator tried to say, that is what the trauma surgeon attempted to say, and many others. Did you even bother to listen or read what they said? The rash of recent video killings was just the catalyst that focused the public's attention on the problem that many in the minority community feel is real.

It has not all been about killings. Remember the TX female black teenager tossed to the ground in her bikini and the uproar that followed. It was not a killing, it was another incident to many in the minority community of heavy handedness or lack of respect.

A few months past I pointed out the WSJ article about the 2 DAs (Cleveland and I believe Chicago but I may be wrong on the latter.) and how voters took the very unordinary step of not re-electing them. The WSJ said this non-violent manner in sending a message that more must be done is what needs to be duplicated elsewhere. Meaning Kevin, there are millions who believe there are problems, whether the many bigots and racists want to admit it or not.

I do stand corrected on one thing. I no longer read Mike's posts. I quit when his typical childish passive aggressive behavior of "caught with your hand in the cookie jar" (a phrase he seems to enjoy) was employed to try and mock me. I have not been caught with anything. You provide a reference to an easy source, I linked and/or provided actual sources Kevin.

I stand by my original post. You disagreed with that and lost respect for me over, IMO, making a judgment call before all of the information was known. Something that occurs regularly on this site. Being in the area, we had a good idea early on this was not what happened in Dallas or Baton Rouge.

Big Bear, if you are referring to the one where the brave officer ran up to the dirt bag who had a vest on and then was killed at point blank range, that was horrific. Robin and I saw it together and immediately sent a prayer. Our only wish is that he would have killed the murderer right then.

BTW, I saw that NYC is issuing some of the gear that our troops get that will better protect them from gun fire. This is something I said a few weeks ago should happen. I think all police departments nationwide, make that all LEO departments, should be issued this gear. I would support federal funds being diverted, or even new funds if needed be approved to accomplish exactly this.

That being said, I maintain that police reform in general is still needed in our free society. And that is something we should all be able to agree with and still support the individual brave officers who do their jobs with absolute integrity. The system itself has areas that need to be improved upon, IMO.

One of the leftist agenda items - militarize the police so the government has more total domination over the citizens.

If it was tanks and bombs etc.. I might agree. Better bullet proof vests for high power bullets I totally agree with. No solo patrols, I agree with.

I thought about the officer above that Bear referenced. If he had a flash grenade he could have tossed he would still be alive IMO.

Arm them better for the war they are in, but do not back down when they are out of line. That's where the real courage is at, standing up to it before it starts and be willing to not back down when you are called names for standing by your beliefs.

Who is this liberal professor you mention? The weakness of your arguments in reflected from a weak mind.

Hackbow is right......scumbag.

In spite of direct quotes to clearly show this has occurred that party has refused to own up to the error and has doubled down with continued misrepresentations.

I agree with Kevin; this has gotten ridiculous; either the party in question has some serious comprehension issues is blatantly being disingenuous or simply is dishonest at the core.

Either way that party was, is and will remain wrong on multiple fronts on this issue.

Downer, if I am a scumbag you are a racist and bigot.

Mike, the approach was intentional to point out how immediately you and Kevin went off on tangents. FTR, I read your post thinking it was Kevin's.

Bless their hearts

Just when you think irony is in short supply you get something like this from another thread:

"Henry,

Integrity is very important."

From the guy who just posted:

"Mike, the approach was intentional to point out how immediately you and Kevin went off on tangents."

In a nutshell an admission that intentional misrepresentation of what you and I (and we could probably throw in Big Bear's first post) was deemed an appropriate response.

You got that folks; the guy who has told you here (and on the other thread I cited) how important integrity is to him just admitted to lying about what people who disagreed with him said in his responses as "an approach" "to point out...."

The guy who chided you and me about our lack of integrity; you can't make this stuff up.

hy·poc·ri·sy

/h??päkr?s?/

noun

noun: hypocrisy; plural noun: hypocrisies

the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

Kind sounds like his actions Kevin, doesn't it?

Cue Frank playing the Charlie Brown card ("why is everybody always picking on me?") in 3, 2, 1.....

You said that things will be different in 5 years...... basically because the newest training in Law Enforcement includes more of an emphasis on non lethal confrontation techniques......

I said that our training hasn't changed.......and I stick by that. I've been a Police Officer for 22 years. We have had training in less than lethal use of force for all those 22 years.... Including the acquisition of the best tool to come along in my career (In my opinion)........The Taser....

Our training on the use of less than lethal force.... Including the use of Tasers, Batons, Bean Bag rounds in shotguns,, and hands on PPCT (Pressure Point Control Techniques) has not changed........Repeat... NOT CHANGED.

Nor has the use of Lethal Force and when it is justified.......

And I challenge you to provide specific examples of how Police Officers in areas other than mine have altered their training in the use of force due to recent events.

Read yesterday's WSJ and Bratton's announcement of pending future retirement.

Kevin,

I just disagree again. But here is what was in the back of my mind that I did not want to share, but I did more than a year ago. No specifics this time.

I suggest some of you talk to a person who has lost a close loved one in one of these police shootings that leave questions. Bear, that is with all sensitivity.

Let's say the someone I spoke with was a well loved poster on this site, like Bear. I am willing to bet the posts would be much different, especially if they were white. They never heard of this place that I know of.

The hole in their heart, the void, is I am sure, on the same level Bear and other police officers feel for the loss of one of their brothers.

Maybe I am an old man, but no one who knows me would call me liberal. In fact, a common feedback I hear from students is that I am too conservative.

Maybe I am a fool, or as a close friend says, "still too idealistic for an old man". But, just my Faith tells me we all ought to have the same loyalty for every citizen that is mistreated, the same intense loyalty that LEOs have for each other.

Let me just say this, the loss was over a drug bust that only residue was found for. On this site we have had one LEO say they smoked pot but would not now because of blood tests. Guys, I do bite my tongue more than you realize. And no, I have never even tried any illegal drug.

Bear, I am sorry I feel this way. I am not liberal, nor do I want to protect and coddle criminals. My closest friend died this past Christmas. His son, who I went to Canada with on numerous fishing trips, was a city PO. Flat out he cannot disagree with anything I have said. He stated that the vast majority of police are outstanding. There are a few that every officer knows should not be cops because they are on a power trip. The system ignores the problem, other officers are loath to say anything as they might need backup to save their life at some point.

I respect your reasoned participation here, and I do respect LEOs. I respect law abiding citizens as well.

By now Mike you should realize you are wrong. I am a tough guy, if I did not want to be "picked" on I would not continue to post. I pick back because I have started to conclude there are a lot more racists and bigots than I thought. Threads attacking a guy as guilty before all of the evidence is in are the best examples here. The participants would never allow that to happen, rightfully, to an LEO but if it is a person of color wearing their pants below their butt, well by God they are guilty.

And your response is for me to go read the Wall Street Journal ?? Really ??

It's not the police who need to be retrained, it's the public. We have grown into a mouthy, cell phone wielding, vulgar, uncivil society with no personal responsibility and the attitude of 'it's the other person's fault', 'you owe me'. A society where children grow up with no boundaries or knowledge or concern for civil society and personal responsibility.

When an officer says "Put your hands up," then put your hands up! Don't reach for something in your pocket, your lap, your seat. There's plenty of reason for a police officer to feel threatened, there have been multiple assaults and ambushes on police officers lately. Comply with requests from the officer, have your day in court. Don't mouth off, or fight, or refuse to comply... that escalates the situation.

Police officers are our sons and daughters, fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters. They're black, white, brown, all colors, all ethnicities, all faiths, male and female, they are us. They see the worst side of humanity... the raped children, the bloody mangled bodies of traffic victims, the bruised and battered victims of domestic violence, homicide victims, body parts... day after day.

They work holidays while we have festive meals with our families. They miss school events with their kids, birthdays, anniversaries, all those special occasions that we take for granted. They work in all types of weather, under dangerous conditions, for relatively low pay.

They have extensive training, but they are human. When there are numerous attacks on them, they become hyper vigilant for a reason, they have become targets. When a police officer encounters any person... any person, whether at a traffic stop, a street confrontation, an arrest, whatever... that situation has the potential to become life threatening. You, Mr & Mrs/Miss Civilian, also have the responsibility of keeping the situation from getting out of control.

Many law enforcement officers are Veterans. They've been in service to this nation most of their lives, whether on the battlefield or protecting us here at home. They are the only thing that stands between us and anarchy in the streets.

If you want to protect your child, teach them respect.

It appears my point went over your head. Let me be clearer; you've taken to pointing out how you are a man of integrity and how that integrity has caused you to post even when you know what you say will not be well-received and may in fact lead to insults and name-calling tossed your way.

While it's laudable to stand up for what you believe the self-aggrandizement (all the posts of late making sure everyone here sees what a stand-up guy you are) comes off as the chest-thumping of a phony.

Yes Frank, I said "phony." I've always believed that the only motivation for doing the right thing should be first, last and always because it's the right thing to do. Acknowledgment, while of course welcomed in the spirit it's rendered should never be sought out.

Let me point to a contrast now; of late we don't seem to run short on threads excoriating the people like AR Troy, Henry, josh and others who refuse to swallow their principles and vote for Trump. They have been roundly criticized, mocked and even vilified with the sobriquet of "Hillary supporter".

Awhile ago I'd had my fill of this type of treatment and began weighing in on how it ran counter to every principle we purport to hold dear to not accord these individuals with the respect their actions merit.

I mention that here for the first and only time; I didn't follow every post touching on that subject with anything about how unpopular that position was (it certainly is) and how I expected to be tarred and feathered along with those I defended.

Why? Because as I said the right thing to do is the only reward needed.

I almost brought this up when you offered that I lay low, see how the wind is blowing and then chime in alongside the "safe" and "popular" opinion. No Frank, I weigh the evidence and act as my conscience dictates.

You have to realize how hard it is for anyone here to take you seriously when you speak of your integrity while openly admitting to deliberately misrepresenting dissenting posts from Kevin and myself. It's hypocritical to claim the moral high ground while conducting yourself that way.

Not surprisingly you haven't addressed that and not surprisingly you did a nice tap dance around Big Bear's direct query.

Live up to that integrity you proclaim to have; not with self-serving statements of it's possession but with tangible actions.

Until those actions are forthcoming the words ring hollow Frank.

Bear, my words were not chosen accurately. I did not, and do not mean, less lethal physical force. But I admit my words gave that impression. So let me clarify, or at least try to.

What I mean is that techniques are being taught that will help situations not escalate to where lethal force might be necessary. The last time you and I debated this, I attached a couple of articles to threads that I started and no one posted on. One of those articles was a study that basically found the increase in escalation in more recent times has several causes. One of the causes was the current training in PAs. The WSJ article found that many instructors in today's academies are from the SWAT/GANG and other special teams formed in the 70-80s when crime was peaking. The attitude developed for such tactics as "no-Knock" warrants was an attitude being used across the board for even minor incidents because it was effective in those situations and now those men were the instructors. And it was responsible for creating bad PR and some of the resultant fall-out we see today.

The other article talked about transactional versus transformational leadership. As an ex-military officer pointed out to me recently, field grade officers who raise their voice or try to lead in a command down type approach only are not the ones who will be promoted to senior ranks.

It was these articles that I posted that said training into new approaches will be occurring as balance with the instructional level at the academies will roll out as officers currently in those positions retire or are re-assigned.

To both you and Henry. Respect is a great thing and it ought to be the way we all operate. Everyone has bad days. I have students who have been less than respectful, and I witness the response the teachers who try to use their superior position to "punish" dis-respectful students. They alienate not just that student, but all others who are witness to it. It hinders the learning process. I have command of my classrooms, and I have seldom ever needed to use a "command" type approach to maintain it. In fact, extending respect back when it has not been granted to me is 95% of the time going to take care of the problem.

That is where I disagree with what some think here. Respect ought to be given, but when it is not the officer does not have any legal right to exercise their own set of rules. That is the law of the land reinforced in SC decisions. And when they try, as was done to me, it hurts the good officers who never use such tactics.

Again, having folks that have attended the PA as students, they tell me there is more time spent on such issues.

Bear I responded to you in the manner I am used to in discussions. Communication helps clarify positions, and naturally more questions will arise. What I refuse to participate with Mike and others on is to take a quote and then demand it be explained in a manner acceptable to them. People have different styles.

Speaking from experience of the two episodes I discussed previously, I concluded that yes the officers were willing to go above the law to "punish" me because I was not respectful in their minds, regardless that one gave me a command that could have endangered my wife, me and others as well as the officer. If it was only the one officer, again, chalk it up as a mistake. When he had support up the entire chain, no, now it was a problem. It is not something I could get away with as a public servant, and it was not going to be allowed to happen to me. And yes, it was not an easy thing to do, to stand up against it, but it was the right thing though in my mind.

Again, some want to take a person's position and demand that they are wrong because of... For myself, my style is to try and put things into context. Asking for information to do that is what you have observed from me. I am a prolific reader. For me, it takes more than just the facts at that point in time to explain everything that led up to the situation.

I want officers and the public to be safer, I mean that sincerely. Is there anything to learn from each of these episodes that can help accomplish what I just said. I believe so.

You have been respectful, and I have tried to be just that back. I get that for some, responding to you was classless. Yet again, I was not just responding to this thread. The last time we discussed this topic, you told of the 6 Detroit officers wrongly convicted, because of politics. I agreed that is terrible. I responded with the 153 death row convicts exonerated by DNA testing. It might have been just my impression, but I saw both of these sad facts as EQUAL transgressions of justice. I am not sure you did.

Hopefully my explaining other experiences of mine helps you understand my convictions. I do see inconsistencies by some here, including Henry who one moment talk about police having too much power, yet seem critical of others who rightfully challenge abuse of power.

Let me be clear, criminals get what they deserve usually, be it a citizen or public official including all the way up to the SoS and President.

Some day, let me tell you about my experience of driving a truck through a union picket line in Battle Creek, MI, and what the union police told me. It would also explain some of my thinking. And to Paul, it is why I was promoted to Detroit where unlike many of the supervisors, I did walk the docks alone on third shift where there were 30 Teamsters to every manager.

Hope that helps, please feel free to ask for further clarification. My reponses will always be in my style, not the style someone else demands. Thanks,

Will you for once stop trying to misrepresent what people have said? I have "demanded" that you hold yourself to the same standard you wish to judge others by; nothing more, nothing less.

If you want to call anyone's integrity into question then it behooves you to act above board. Posting in your own words that you deliberately misrepresented posters is not how anyone defines integrity.

Instead of trying to twist a simple standard of fairness into an undeserved attack simply admit that you did not honor the same yardstick and move on.

I do see inconsistencies by some here, including Henry who one moment talk about police having too much power, yet seem critical of others who rightfully challenge abuse of power.

Right; you just don't seem the glaringly obvious inconsistency in the moral compass you impose on others and cast aside when it suits your fancy.

I'm glad you're not reading this Frank as perish forbid I dent your fragile ego with a dose of reality again.

Really? That is what you got from what I wrote? And you claim to be an educator?

I was thinking the same of you.

Your wording was perfectly clear as was the intent; the defensiveness that seeks to turn those statements into a demand speaks to the grudging (though not open) acknowledgment of the accuracy of your observations.

The small and petty are almost universally reticent to accept blame; they do however, have no reluctance in attempting to deflect it.

Someone would make one hell of a good liberal.....

A) You disagreed with my premise that both sides share responsibility in the climate we are witnessing?

B) You felt I should have left it alone out of respect for Bear, i.e. it was a timing issue more than a disagreement with me.

C) Both A & B.

Maybe you can directly answer that for me.

Everything else I posted still supports, IMHO, my original premise. I believe both sides share blame, and I supported that with multiple links, stories, articles etc..

As to B, I believe I explained that as well. Would not have addressed this without the history behind the exchanges between Bear and myself.

Still of the opinion that your post to say you are losing respect without an explanation, is an action you turned around and accused me of. You can interpret the rest of it any way you want, but that is how I see it. And sir, you are just as stubborn as I in not changing your position. Actually, I expect no less of a person with convictions, and you should expect that all of the self righteous blather of others will not move me away from my position. I did not arrive here without research and much thought.

My views have nothing to do with social engineering, but rather social justice.

I know this post will not change your mind, as your response will not change mine. We will leave it there after your response.

Maybe a few of those police officers who aren't bad apples could file a missing persons report for his integrity....

That may be because you refuse to or cannot accept what I wrote. People refusing to be lawful causes police to be more forceful. This will only lead to local police becoming more militarized or taken over by outside forces.

Moral and religious people do not need an authoritarian government - the entire basis of our freedom under a republican form of government.

This runs contrary to the narrative you have chosen.

The use of force in Law Enforcement is dictated by the Force Continuum. The amount of force used by Police Officers (OR NOT USED) is dictated by the actions of the suspect.

Police Programs such as Community Policing and DARE have been around for over a decade. Programs like Community Policing focus on relations with the community....

And there is a time and place for Officers to be counselors, social workers, mentors, big brothers, and the like.......

Yet there are times when all the social skills in the world will not make a subject comply. That's when things can go bad.

Big Bear-here you go, hope it helps.

Anytime; given what we owe you and you and your fellow LEO's it was truly a pleasure. Stay safe and know that there are far more of those who have your 6 and always will than the nuts flipping cars and chanting obscenities.

When I watched the video I couldn't help drawing a parallel between the perception of police violence and the perception of gun violence.

Sensationalized by the tabloid media both suffer from a perception of numbers that doesn't square with the reality once a review of the facts is conducted.

As I said earlier in this thread the isolated (and as the video shows very small %) incidents have been around for decades; the killing of LEO's "in response" is a recent phenomenon.

I put "in response" in quotes because I don't buy the narrative we're being fed; this is a direct offshoot of the race baiters, a complicit press and worst of all the complete abetting of the breakdown in respect from the POTUS and his DOJ.

We, and unfortunately brave men and women like Bear are reaping what those mentioned have sown.

I wonder what percentage of encounters the police have with their "clients" involve resisting arrest and battery of the officer...let alone the foul mouthed vitriol spewed at them.

I'm pretty sure that cops are much more likely to be on the receiving end of an attack.

And while I do not endorse police brutality, I have told my buddy on numerous occasions after witnessing his interaction with someone exceptionally mouthy, "I could never do your job. I just wanted to crack that @$¥%€¡©£#!! over the head with a stick!"

Which is intentional on the part of those who seek to destroy our society.