It is certain that if Hillary wins, fingers will be pointing and responsibility directed for positions taken. Sadly, those who view that their moral positions are somehow superior to others who did not hold their views will probably be leading the blame-calling.
We are past the time that all things negative about Trump need posting with each revelation. Like it or not, Trump is the candidate and we are stuck with either him or Hillary.
One can blame the morals, emotions or whatever you may opine on the voters that made Trump the candidate...but whatever the reason, the choice still remains: Trump or Hillary. Nothing will change what has happened and it is time to get over it and deal with the hand that has been dealt...
—Ace
Sorry, I was on Twitter. I felt it was necessary to dispel the widely-held myth, adored by #NeverTrumpers, that somehow attacking Trump relentlessly does not aid Hillary Clinton, and that they are not choosing Hillary Clinton by choosing to be NeverTrump.
All choices have consequences. By supporting Trump, I am responsible for the consequences of a Trump victory -- and those consequences could indeed be dire.
But a childish morally-unserious fantasy has infected the #NeverTrump not-so-intellgentsia, that they can agitate for Hillary Clinton -- by relentlessly disparaging Trump -- and somehow, they are not responsible for the consequences of the Hillary presidency they are bucking for.
They've dreamed up this self-pleasing, responsibility-evading dreamscape in which those who plump for Trump are responsible for the outcomes of a Trump presidency, but, for no explanation thusfar discoverable, they are not responsible for the outcomes of the Hillary presidency they're agitating for.
I tried to explain to them that there is no such thing as a consequence-free choice -- all choices have consequences, both on the upside and the downside -- and both the upside and downswide consequences must be considered by any adult, intellectually-serious person in making his choice.
But they like this idea that, like little children, they are free to gambol and play in the fields and this does not even perturb the leading edge of a butterfly's wing, and so they just keep teling me "No you're wrong" without saying why I'm wrong.
Which, seriously, is a rather important part of any argument beginning with the words "You're wrong."
I ask people: When you knocked Obama in 2012, and wrote posts and comments noting his flaws, did you think you were doing nothing to improve Mitt Romney's chances of winning the presidency?
If so-- why the fuck did you bother?
Of course, this is silly; everyone knows that when one buys ads attacking a candidate, one is helping that candidate's opponent win.
The #NeverTrumpers are filling their blogs, magazines, and Twitter timelines with nonstop political advertising (free) against Trump, and maintain, just because they say so and because it pleases them to think so, this does exactly nothing to help Hillary, and they are therefore not responsibe for her election.
Or let me put it this way: I am not hoping for Trump to get into some serious international snafu by supporting him. Yet I know that is a very real possibility if he's president.
Should this happen, I can't just say "But I didn't want trump to screw up so badly."
People would say -- no, but you knew the risks in supporting him, and you supported him anyway; you are therefore morally responsible for this.
Yet the #NeverTrumpers claim that the obvious, inescapable outcome of their position -- that Hillary Clinton will be the president -- is not their responsibility, just because they didn't intend that as a pirmary matter.
No, but they were completely aware it was the natural and inevitable consequence of their position.
So why would a Trump supporter be responsible for a foreign policy catastrophe he didn't even know for a fact would happen, when a #NeverTrumper claims to be innocent of the Hillary Presidency they know beyond a shadow of any doubt is the direct and inescapable consequence of the NeverTrump posiition?
They're responsible for it. They don't want to be, but they are.
I don't particularly want to be on the hook for a Trump presidency, but, being a morally serious person who has not yet delegated my thinking to the Twitter Hivemind, I recognize that by taking the action of lending him my support, I am responsible for the conseqyences of that act.
Why do the childish #NeverTrumpers mewl that they, alone in the universe, are not responsiblee for the consequences of their own choices?
I understand the #NeverTrump impulse. I've expressed it myself. After Trump's boorish, vulgar, half-insane attack on Cruz's wife, I announced "I'm done" with Trump and vowed to never vote for him.
I understand #NeverTrump, emotionally. I think there's merit in the position.
However, we have difficult choices to make. And difficult choices should be treated as what they are -- difficult, hard choices requiring moral seriousness and rigorous cost-benefit analysis.
They should not be made --artificially and falsely -- into easy-breezy decisions where one just says "I will do everything I can to make sure Trump is defeated, and I shall never give a thought to the prospect of a Hillary presidency, and I should never allow my shoulders to feel the burden of the consequences of the choice I am making."
Real men -- and tough-minded women -- do not go fleeing tough choices by simply hallucinating an "Officer Dimes, please come and save me" miracle solution.
Either Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton will be president in November.
If you think Hillary would be a better president -- or if Trump is so repulsive to you you cannot support him even if you think Hillary would be worse -- fine. I respect your opinion.
We all have different brains. We all have different priorities.
But what I must insist you cannot do -- what i will not permit you to do -- is fantasize that while a Trump supporter is resonsible for the gaffes and disasters of a President Trump, you are somehow innocent of the purges and witchhunts of a President Hillary.
Trump supporters will own the consequences of a Trump presidency -- and Hillary supporters, both those who declare it proudly and those who wish it secretly -- own the consequences of a Hillary presidency.
Adults accept the consequences of their choices.
Only children run from them, or cross their fingers behind their backs and claim that's a charm insulating them from the consequences of their choices.
Some decisions are hard. They should be respected as being hard.
And no, Officer Dimes is not coming to save you from the dilemma you face.
Think of how much time Josh and the other disciples have invested in this endeavor. They can't ever let up at this point. Even a broken watch is occasionally right...
I fully understand and respect the people who think they must support the republican candidate no matter who it is. Whether you guys are willing to admit or understand it, I guarantee you that I no more want to see Hildebeast in office any more than you.
As far as taking responsibility, sure, load it on. I think conservatives were bound to be viewed as responsible for this loss the moment Trump was nominated. One wonders if it made anyone feel better to blame conservatives when McCain and then Romney lost. I think it probably did, because it is much easier to lay defeat at the hands of someone else, rather than consider that maybe the mistake lay with them, and the candidate they chose to hold their banner.
To me it boils down to this, It is like being offered 2 pills, one is poison the other might be. You HAVE to choose one, which will it be? I'll take my chance on the maybe poison, the other is sure death to more freedoms.
Adding the caveat that should you choose the questionable pill, you must then assume the job of handing the pills out to people, would make it much more accurate.
You better believe it. IF Trump were to pull a rabbit out of a hat and actually get elected....if you think the Trump supporters react badly to criticism of him now..... Just wait until he is actually President and you try to criticize him. Wow. It will be the Bowsite CF the last 12 months, times 10. Which is one of the very reasons I've argued against Trump. Our Republican majority Congress would fight Hillary's bad initiatives SOME. Will they fight President Trump's bad initiatives? "Their guy"? Not on your life!
Anony Mouse is a highly respected poster here, who to the best of my knowledge has yet to insult, disrespect, or berate a soul over their voting choices. Your post above reads just like one of the Trump supporters posts, as if Jack and everyone else are not allowed to support anyone they darn well please, or not.
I believe much of the rancor between supporters of the various candidates is a direct result of the tone, tenor, and frequency of your posts, and it continues here. If we don't learn to disagree with people without disrespecting them, we'll never get where we want to be.
Donald Trump, despite all the machinations or beliefs that have been leveled against him does not have a record, pro or con as a elected public servant. No one save Jesus Christ Himself, will ever know what he will do until his actions as a elected official and that record becomes part of history that can truthfully referenced as fact.
Talk is cheap, and the tailor of the suit that many people wear here must have had a wonderful sense of humor.
All dispositions that has been formed against Donald Trump is from "referenced" material, garnered through media outlets, radio hosts, luminaries in their own minds, and, get this, believe it or not, from twitter posts. We conveniently roll them into a ball of belief of truth and facts, agree only to soothe are ailing souls.
How could the overwhelming majority of people, stupid that they are, choose this man as their candidate? So the stupid, uneducated people who have on a consistent basis and whose own champion has failed once again, proclaim from the highest mountain.
These people do not know Donald Trump and you do not know what he will do as a elected public servant. Propensity, declarations and predictions are borne out like our justice system, that being due process. Until the act that you believe will be committed is indeed committed, your allegations against him or anyone else are a indictment of your own failings. Those who proclaim to vote their conscience in this election have only one choice if you are of the beliefs that you have so vigorously championed here, or you are a charlatan.
There are things in this world we KNOW and things we do not KNOW.
There are murderers amongst US this very moment, possibly right here on this very site, who until this time have yet to shed a drop of blood or have committed a crime.
How could you know or predict who they are that you could indict them? That is how much you KNOW what Donald Trump WILL do in elected public service.
Conjecture, opinion, speculation, presume, hypothesize, surmise, and imagine to your hearts content. Let your conscience be your guide, as many so vehemently proclaim to rise above all else in this world, that would not even preclude the allegations against your own children to pierce your own ironclad conscience to your pillows content. Compare the candidates and lay them side by side.
Choose, and if it be Hillary Clinton, draw a warm bath, scalpel a vertical, parallel line in your wrist and do us all a favor, and may God have minimum mercy upon your soul.
Who cares about you or me? Most of the members here are old and living on borrowed time as it is, a sand wedge away from the bone orchard. This is not about our future. Our future is day to day no matter what you think or how you feel. The future of your children and grandchildren will be the beneficiaries of what you know, not what you think you know.
This is serious folks, the stakes and obstacles will be left for our families to navigate on their own, and the numbers are being stacked against them everyday. If Hillary Clinton be your choice or your action or inaction benefit her in any way, I will still buy you a drink to show you this is not personal. I will have the bartender piss in it for me however.
The Rock
Stalker...please close your HTML.
Edit:
Never mind...fixed it with my post for further comments.
A Trump presidency by all logical estimation will be as Constitutionally and economically bad as Clinton and, because he is so detestable, he could very easily lose both bodies of Congress in a skinning. Very likely outcome.
I will offer Trump guys advice. Your guy won. Act like it. Your guy is, by all measures, a rabid leftist. Acknowledge it. Despite that he is still better than Clinton. Sell it.
These shaming memes and threads are small minded and counterproductive.
There's ONE over riding reason why I will vote for Trump...SCOTUS.
The rest of what he says for the most part is good and I agree with most of it. But I don't know if I can trust him to follow through. However I KNOW beyond the shadow of any doubt that I cannot trust or abide by most all of what Hellary stands for. She's more than proven that.
And if people don't like the dialogue then don't turn every thread into a hate Trump thread. We get it.
that pizzes me off even more.
Let me get this straight.... if the sleazy scumbag loses..... it's not his fault for, you know, being a sleazy scumbag... nor the 30-40% that pushed for and nominated a known sleazy scumbag.... it's the fault of the people confirming the known, proven and obvious facts.
So now we have come to the point where we are now coerced to outright lie. No different from the leftists. Smacks of a quasi-brownshirt fascist organization.
Thank you. I pretty much thought the country was screwed. This confirms it. We will get exactly what we deserve....
Frankly, it is creepy as hell.
What do we KNOW other than what you were told? That is all we KNOW. Exactly what we are told that is unless someone has Gods gossiping ear.
We all have a KNOWN problem. We believe everything we think except of course if it concerns us. Then of course we stutter our way to our own defense.
I was told Jack climbed the Beanstalk when I was a child. Time to put away childish things TD.
Hillary Clinton is enemy that must be defeated at all costs no matter how you spin it.
The Rock
I could care less that Trump has won at this point. That matter has long been decided.
Kyle could back me up on this. I was a Cruz guy BEFORE most people here who were solidly backing Scott Walker and I claimed that Trump should have shot himself in the head when he commented on John McCain. Kyle remembers this. The only reason at the time I was Cruz was because he attended Princeton which NO ONE here even knew about. When Walker took the plunge Cruz became the new hero. I liked Trumps anti PC and in your face style apart from the normal politician. As Cruz fanatics mounted I further went Trump.
There should be a single mindedness here and only one person in the crosshairs: Hillary Clinton. When that job is completed impeach Trump or anything else for that matter. He chose a solid Republican with CREDENTIALS and a conscience which is so dear to those here, as his VP. Where were the hand claps? When he seats the SC the job has been completed on our part. Then we can pull out the blades and cut him to shreds if deemed necessary and that if is yet to be determined. Trumps first official selection has proved to be as he said he would and kept his word. Did that somehow escape everyone here? He is 1-0 so far. Again where are the hand claps for keeping his word on that score?
The Rock
My only issue is aligned with Woods Walker. SCOTUS. There are simply too many of them that can check out in the next 4 to 8 years. We know who Hillary will pick, and that scares me. Our second amendment is the only thing that keeps the rest of them viable. That filthy bitch will most assuredly appoint liberal goons into the highest court.
Trump? Who knows? We do know that he is accountable to millions of disaffected Americans that are using him as their middle finger to the establishment politics.
Cruz says "vote your conscience". I am. I am rolling the dice on TRump, as my conscience will not allow to me take a chance on the Hildabeast.
Troy, yes, he has, and this very thread is another example of it. I couldn't even begin to count how many times he's taken me to task here since last Summer because I just didn't "understand" the rise of Trump.
"Smacks of a quasi-brownshirt fascist organization."
Yep, and it's going to get sooo much worse before November, and way, way worse if Trump were to actually win.
"Cruz says "vote your conscience". I am. I am rolling the dice on TRump, as my conscience will not allow to me take a chance on the Hildabeast."
And I don't think Cruz would fault you for that. There's a reason he said "vote your conscience". He meant it.
It's Hellary or Trump. Any other vote is like voting for your big toe. ONE of these two WILL BE appointing the next batch of SCOTUS judges.
We've don't really know who Trump would appoint I guess until it happens, but we DO know who Hellary would appoint.
And I for one DO NOT want to give that b**** the option!!!!!
Jack, you can go pound sand. The people most responsible for a President Hillary Clinton will be the people who have propped up Trump from the very beginning, and that most definitely includes you, whether you have the cojones to admit who you voted for in Michigan or not..
Joshuaf,
I don't know how old you are but do you recall who the Democrats running against each other were in 2008? It was Obama and Hillary Clinton. Now we all know who won so I won't bore you with why Hillary Clinton didn't win, you already know why and we all know why McCain didn't win or even come close.
Then in 2012 Obama won again against a very weak Republican, Mitt Romney. Makes me think that the RNC wants the Democrats to win.
So here we are in 2016 and the Republican voters have pretty much had it with the RINOS. Trump was not my choice but this is our presumptive Presidential choice and I will vote for Trump.
You choose to belittle Jack for whatever reason because he chooses Trump and perhaps from the get-go.
You say the people most responsible for a Hillary Clinton win is someone who has propped up Trump from the beginning? You are so wrong, remember she ran back in 2008 against Obama on the Democratic ticket and she lost.
Joshuaf, you are a very small man..you insulted my friend and a guy who has, as others stated been a Bowsite contributor for many years.
What's funny is that I was repeatedly shouted down with arguments like "The Republicans gave us Roberts" "The Republicans gave us Kennedy" which are of course both true. It's not a guarantee when you're betting on human beings.
But the folks who shouted me down before now take it as gospel that Trump's SC picks will be conservatives like Scalia. The inconsistency is one more bit of evidence that Trump's following is cult-like.
Some of you will be insulted by that. That does not make it any less true.
That is all needs to be known about one's makeup and character.
We must present a united front in word and deed directed at this singular threat. This point forward into Nov. no matter your personal feelings against Donald Trump, we must insure his victory.
We can always return to our squabbles, attacks and disagreements here on the CF which many find refreshing.
The Rock
With Hillary Clinton I believe we will get nothing but liberal SCOTUS candidates and maybe even illegal or Sharia nominees. So, having said that I really hope Trump wins.
Anony Mouse's Link
Anony Mouse's Link
We Must Have Hillary In Order To Give The Nation the Gift of Ted
From the link:
But consider this. Despite everything I just wrote, I am not, nor would I ever be, #NeverCruz.
Why?
Because I am #NeverLeft.
Mouse, Cruz is likely to run for President again in 2020 regardless of who wins in November. He knows that either one of them will be an utter disaster for Liberty, Freedom, the Constitution and for the Country.
So why is it bad again to vote Trump on this ticket? Do we really want 4 years of Crooked Hillary with the reins until Cruz can get on the ticket in 2020? With liberal judges and no 2A rights anymore. Let's not forget the 550% increase in refugees.
Fast forward to 2020. Where is Cruz going to get the funds to run a campaign?.....
from joshauf...;-)
Ted Cruz never was and never will be trusted by the RNC and he has committed political suicide. Time for private practice or a DNC run.
Ted Cruz is DOA. Scott Walker will be the next serious Republican contender because he has tested the waters and will be ready to jump in with both feet. That was a very smart political move he made when he quickly existed. He knew early on that this was not the year for the status quo and left with his head and reputation intact. He will be a force to be reckoned with if Trump should fail. He is young bright and now seasoned.
The Rock
Bet your ass they did. They figured Texas and Ohio would derail Trump. What they will discover is that turncoats never make it to the river. Nobody likes a traitor.
Trump will win Ohio, Texas, Florida and the election leaving these sad souls to twist in the wind from the 5 strand hemp that they deserve. They will not be afforded EVEN the dignity of a new rope.
The Rock
good grief. just read what the man HIMSELF has said and written. This isn't conjecture... they are documented facts. I think you know that. But also think you can wave your hand and weave your way around it. Sorry, not with known facts. I just don't "think" he's a POS. I know for a fact he is.
Double koolaid on the rocks here....... same for that other guy at the bar.... they have much to forget...
But hey.... he's our POS... and better than theirs.... and this is what we are forced into.
Yep. we will get what we deserve... every bit of it...
Trump is responsible for earning people's votes. We are not responsible for simply handing them to him.
AFAIC, he has until about November 1 to earn my vote. He has not done so yet. And if Colorado goes as I suspect, I could vote for Mickey Mouse and it would not change the result.
Spike, are we talking about the same GOP Establishment that acted like thugs and just helped Trump to shut down any organized opposition to him among the GOP Delegates at the Convention last week?
I don't know how Colorado will go this year, but Obama did worse in most states in 2012 than he did in 2008.
Ly'n Ted in fact proved himself to be Ly'n Ted at the convention for all of the world to see, except for his Seven Mountain/Christian Nationalist sycophant's.
One only has to read the lies and deceit they spread from their slithering tongues, their newest "gnashing of teeth" is the "Dem's want Hillary to loose" and "The truth is that a high portion of the hatred of Cruz comes from a hatred of God", proving once again they are deceitful disingenuous morally corrupt blatherskites.
Cruz won among people who attended church on a regular basis. By quite a bit. In fact, several studies found that "regular/weekly church attendance" was the #1 leading indicator that you were opposed to Donald Trump and voted for someone else.
Sorry to burst your bubble but the majority of Christens do not attend service weekly and haven't for the last decade.
But please, keep spinning and deflecting with thy slithering tongue.
You'll just have to spend some time going through old threads to find them. I posted them here when they came out, and no surprise you didn't pay any attention. Find them yourself.
"but the majority of Christens self-identified evangelicals do not attend service weekly and haven't for the last decade."
That much is obvious, and I never said they did. I said that Cruz won a higher % of the vote than any other candidate from those who do attend church on a weekly basis.
I'd love to test that theory out here on Bowsite. I'd bet a dollar to a donut that almost every single enthusiastic Trump supporter here, who have supported Trump proudly and enthusiastically from the start, do not attend church on a weekly basis.
Begs the question: which is more important--holding to one's principals; or seeing the Constitution and BOR eviscerated by the appointment of liberal living document judges who will read into and out of our foundation document new views of freedom?
ar x2. well put.
Hellary/Trump. Pick one. If you don't you WILL get the one you wanted least.
For what purpose are the constant Cruz threads?
At least Trump is a candidate. Trying to shame people into not speaking about their feelings?
Maybe you can get a group together and censor dissenters. Oh wait, Slade already is on top of that one.
Morally responsible?
Morally: based on principles that you or people in general consider to be right, honest...
Morals are bad now??^^^^^^
I first wanted Walker, then Cruz, but people like Trump, Crispy, and Bush will/would never get my vote.
I am #neverliberal which leaves Trump and Clinton off the table......
Feeling, shaming, and redefining = the way of the liberals
You didn't read the article Anony linked, did you?
My actions didn't give us the choices we have and if the GOP cant beat a candidate like Hillary, after coming off of 8 years of Obama, they have bigger issues than missing my vote.
If they want to lock up my vote, come and get it. There is time left and I wont vote for Hillary so Im what sales guys would call a hot lead.
I fully understand that there are points in life when you to make choices and none of the options are what you want. This is one.
Tip: I already know the disaster that Hillary is and I understand the effects of judge appointments. More about how bad Hillary will be wont close the deal. Insulting me or trying to play a guilt trip wont close the deal. Theres a few months left and I'm listening. Some things that might catch my attention are "freedom", "Constitution", "smaller government", "inaliable rights", "accountability" ...that sort of stuff. I dont like Trump and dont trust him. I do think there is a chance I will approve of some of his decisions but thats a wildcard. I know for a fact what it means to vote for someone you dont want or like. Its what I have done every Presidential cycle. Its eats at me and hasnt really accomplished anything, so I might just go hunting.
Others here appear to be using the Moral Rights approach.
Even though uncomfortable with supporting trump over Hillary (both terrible choices we are faced with IMO) I have concluded there is nothing inherently wrong in doing so. Nor, do I see any issue with those who will not support either candidate, even though that might contribute to one of the terrible, and possibly the more terrible, being elected. Stay true to...
X 1,000
Someone tell me how Trump apologists will excuse away his application for 78 foreign workers to fill vacancies at Mar-a-Lago. I need help.
— Noah Rothman (@NoahCRothman) July 28, 2016
I'm not sure how anyone sane believes a guy filing to fill his club with foreign workers is really going to build a wall, but okay.
— Steve Deace (@SteveDeaceShow) July 28, 2016
Trump is who he is. That won't change between now and then.
It will interesting to see if he and Hillary go to the middle in the general. Thats normal but this is an odd cycle and both are having issues with their base. The Dems are farther left than normal already.
So in effect not voting "for", "not voting at all", or "voting third party" is always "against". Sadly it is always against you, which only a idiot would choose no matter how you cut it.
The Rock
Let reason rule.
Which is the polar opposite of following a Constitutional republican form of government. You first operate within the limits of the constitution. To do the "greatest good for the greatest number" means you are deciding for people who can decide for themselves. That's known as a socialist utopia. Venezuela is now undergoing the inevitable fate of socialist regimes, because you always run out of other people's money.
I really liked Rand Paul, I believe he is a man of principle and an honorable man until I learned of his stance on foreign affairs, ok..scratch that..then there was Ben Carson..Dr. Carson is awesome and I hope he will fit into the cabinet somewhere. Then there was Ted Cruz. A constitutional conservative, so I voted for him in the Ky. primary. Thank God he didn't win..so that leaves Donald Trump, you know what, I think he is a good choice.
