Jimbo's Link
He "quit."
Nobody listened. They made the decision for him.
I have a meeting to get to shortly so I've only been able to skim the article now; so far it's interesting but at first blush the author seems to be missing a key point;
the "selling out" he refers to; while it's possible to make a compelling argument it misses the fact that the greater threat to the long-term health of the nation wasn't Donald Trump but a judiciary (particularly the SC) under a President Hillary Clinton. At most a presidency occupies 8 years in time; judicial appoints to the SC last a lifetime and federal courts can adversely impact the populace as well if they function as judicial advocates and in essence, legislate from the bench.
I'll dive deeper into this tonight, and I do thank you for posting it. It never hurts to give an honest ear to a contrary opinion.
Thanks.
He's talking about a lot of Trumpists like many of those here at Bowsite and again hits the nail squarely on the head. Sounds like some Bowsite participants were those who filled up his in-box with hate mail when he told the truth about Trump.
And being wrong.
That is the hope of many who compromised to vote for him.....
I told ya'll quite a few times that there were going to be a lot of college-educated, suburban Republicans who would vote for Hillary as the lesser of two evils because they thought Trump was a complete nutjob. People here said "no way that will happen", "Republicans will never vote for Hillary", "you're crazy if you think Republicans will vote for Hillary", etc. I kept telling you, and you kept protesting. And that is exactly what happened, one only needs to look at the county returns in Conservative suburban metro counties all over the nation to see how Hillary way overperformed Obama there and Trump way underperformed Romney there. I talked to my baby brother the other day about this. He is a well-paid lawyer in a top position with a Fortune Global 500 company that has a big office in Dallas, and 99% of his circle of friends there at work are well-educated, affluent lawyers who graduated from top U.S. law schools. Almost all of his friends are Republicans. One of them voted for Trump. A few voted 3rd party. The majority of his well-educated, affluent Republican friends - who had no problem voting for Romney in 2012 - voted for Hillary in November because as much as they disliked her, they thought Trump was a nutjob and Hillary was likely to do less damage to the country than Trump, with a Republican majority in Congress. Like myself, my brother couldn't stomach either of them and he voted 3rd party.
There are Republicans out there - LOTS of them - who disagree with you about Trump. No amount of shouting at them is likely to change their mind. The sooner you realize you don't hold a monopoly on thought about Trump among Republicans, the less cranky you will be.
You don't have to respond, we all know the answer.
The one thing that you've yet to explain Josh is why you have spent so much time belittling people for acting like Trump is a king, and then treat his election as if you were voting for a sole kingdom leader. It's ok for you to imply the damage he might do is irreversible. Yet try to insult anyone for being happy that Trump isn't setting on his haunches.
Yeah, he is ego driven. Yeah, we'll likely have to reinforce the executive branch role with him before this is over. He is going to tread that line likely. But, this isn't a kingdom with one ruler. Remember?
You hate him. It's so obvious it smells of it even.
God Bless men
Come again? Rationalize why what doesn't apply to me? And it's my brother, not my buddy, though my brother is my buddy:)
" Just saying if you are going to use him as verification for doing the right thing"
I didn't post this anecdote as "verification" that he was doing the "right thing". I posted it as more evidence that there are a lot of you so deeply insulated in your Trump bubbles that you have no clue there are a LOT of other REPUBLICANS out there with different feelings on the matter than you. I've been told, alternately, that no, lots of Democrats wouldn't/didn't vote for Trump, and no, lots of Republicans wouldn't vote for Hillary. Well guess what, both of those things happened, despite all the denials posted here.
"expect criticism when it is told all him and his buds voted their conscious with Hillary or a third party."
Why? So I can't criticize so-called "conservative republicans" for shilling for and voting for a lifelong Liberal NYC Democrat, but it's fair game for you and others to criticize people like me, my brother, and his Republican friends for voting for someone who is a closer representation to our values? I'm a Constitutional Conservative first, Republican second. Have never made any bones about that. If your loyalty is to the party first, that is your prerogative, but it doesn't mean it's mine.
"The one thing that you've yet to explain Josh is why you have spent so much time belittling people for acting like Trump is a king, and then treat his election as if you were voting for a sole kingdom leader. It's ok for you to imply the damage he might do is irreversible."
Sole kingdom leader? Sorry, don't think I'm following what you're trying to say here. If you can explain your question a little more clearly, I will try to explain what it is you think I haven't explained yet.
"Yet try to insult anyone for being happy that Trump isn't setting on his haunches."
I think we only need one President at a time, and it is disrespectful to the current President for Trump to be so vocal about this stuff before his inauguration. I would say the same thing if Obama had acted the same before his first inauguration. But I think you're being either very ignorant or very disingenuous if you think this is the primary cause for my complaints. The primary cause of my complaints has to do with the substance of some of the things he's done or talked about doing already since his election. I think you know that's true, so I think you're being disingenuous rather than ignorant, though I don't know about some of ya'll anymore. Maybe you're just choosing to willfully misunderstand me, you certainly wouldn't be the first around here to do that.
I'll save you the five paragraphs in response by just saying, if you voted for any candidate besides the two that had a chance to win, you took the high road. And, if everyone were as self serving as you, we'd be in serious trouble right now. You can think the people who carried your dopey butt across the finish line. You truly are becoming more pathetic everyday.
If honoring my values and principles by voting my conscience is "self-serving", then I guess I wish everyone would be a little more "self-serving". I can't for the life of me understand why violating the principles you claim to hold is to be celebrated and not violating them is to be condemned. Perhaps there is a reason that the American "Church" carries so little influence anymore.
Tell me....you have indicated in the past that the Bible is very important to you. It is also to me. Can you point out to me somewhere in the Bible, the principle of voting for the "lesser of two evils"? I have yet to be able to find it. I'm pretty sure it isn't there, or people like you would no doubt be quoting it non-stop to justify their choice in a situation like this.
As unpalatable as Trump is, it was either him or Hillary making one and maybe two SCOTUS picks in the next 4 years. In my mind there was no option for anyone with an inkling of conservatism in them. Especially those in battle ground states.
I think these next 4 years are going to be a brutal fight to oust Trump by those on the left and those that align with them. Full court press. I would say that Trumps days are numbered before they get started but then again he has defied nearly every thing I could have imagined.
So all the Republicans who voted for Hillary - and there were a lot - have no "inkling of conservatism in them"? While you and others who voted for the other NYC lifelong Liberal Democrat in the race are....what? Constitutional Warriors? I don't suppose you considered for even a single second that there were Republicans who had a different opinion than you about which candidate in the race was the "lesser of two evils"? No, I thought not. And you're fully prepared to tell them their judgement about that was the wrong one?
I've stated it a hundred times on here: It was "my opinion" that it came down to who was going to pick the next one or two SCOTUS's. We had two choices on the general ticket. Two. Any "conservative" who would allow those next SCOTUS choices to be left to Hillary, when there is so much at stake inre to the constitution and the lefts relentless attack on same, well I just shake my head. But you know, it's your choice and it was my choice.
I do know this; you live in a battle-ground state. Ohio. One of the biggies with 18 electoral votes. Your vote "did" matter, 3 times more than mine, yet you rolled the dice and stayed home. If I lived in a bonafide red state like some on here do, I would have wrote in my kid or something, but I live in a blue state that could have went either way as well, so I went and voted and the state still went blue, but I played.
None of us know how Trump is going to lead just yet. He has made some conservative cabinet selections IMHO; lets hope he surrounds himself with the right people. He maybe a snake-oil salesman, but his feet will be held to the fire not only by the left and the right but those of you who took your ball and went home. That said, I voted for the man. He wasn't my first, second or third choice but I "earned the right to bitch" about his leadership and will. You OTOH, well... not so much.
I hope you're right, but I fear you are very much wrong. How often did Republicans in Congress hold George W.'s feet to the fire when he wanted to overstep the bounds of his Constitutional authority? And George W. looks like George Washington compared to Trump. Medicare Part D and No Child Left Behind Act ringing any bells? Those bills wouldn't have passed a Republican majority Congress with a President Al Gore, John Kerry, Barack Obama, or Hillary Clinton. But they did with Republican President George W. Bush. Just what exactly makes you think that Republicans in Congress will hold the line when Trump proposes initiatives that are even more Liberal and appealing to Democrats than anything Bush ever dreamed of? He makes one negative tweet about someone and sicks the Trump Mob on them. He makes one negative tweet about some gargantuan company that manufacturers products in other places in addition to the U.S. and sends their stock price plunging. Many Republicans in Congress are scared of him and the mob he controls via his twitter account and Putin's Russian troll-bots on twitter.
Imagine the cries of rage from the Trump supporters here if a new President-elect Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton were threatening car companies with tariffs (before they were even sworn in, to boot!)! But yet with Trump? I haven't seen a single solitary comment from anyone on here that maybe it isn't in the Constitutional authority of the U.S. President to be trying to strong-arm/threaten non-Governmental vehicle manufacturers about where they can manufacture their products. Have you? It certainly isn't going to be the Trump voters who will hold his feet to the fire.
Lets do this: Lets just sit on our hands, and not pick one of two options left to us. We can stand at the fork in the road; we can go left or right (not politically speaking). Or we can pick that third option and step off the road and then bitch and moan at those who led the way, for better or worse.
Damn, man. It's fine to vote your conscience in the primary, or maybe even when the vote is in and it's all feel good, or useless (like California, NY, Ct, etc.). That said, I'm glad enough of your fellow Ohioans went to the polls, or you would be whining about Hillary....or would you? Based on your own observations on the gutless republicans from the Bush admin to now, at what point do you think they would hold the line against her? They were certainly ball-less against B-Ho, and are probably largely responsible for the hated Trump; to wit, Trump is middle Americas middle finger to the "establishment."
I have heard the accusation that someone with no "political experience" is not qualified to be President. I used to think that too, but the past decade or so has shown me that maybe it's just the opposite......lifelong political hacks of both parties have ruined just about everything they've been in control of.
One day they will figure out that Trump is only where he is now because of THEIR actions/inaction's/**** ups. And then again they may just continue to float down the De-Nial.
What I can do is point out where numerous men, Including Jesus, did less than desirable things by the commandment of God, for the betterment of others. I can point out anything you'd like concerning the Bible's reference to individual responsibility. I can also point out where hypocrisy is a sin.
Josh, I felt bad after posting that second post. I don't normally do that and, I was wrong to be so rude to you. It was petty. It really was. It was a lack of judgement on my part and, I sincerely offer you my apology for doing that.
But, for the life of me, you keep making this all about TRUMP. For me, it initially had very little to do with TRUMP. After nomination, it had to do with the promises he made on campaign and, his VICE PRESIDENT. It had to do with his opposition and, the person she was. It had every thing to do with the promise of where she was going to take this country, versus his promise if what he intended to do. I was faced with exactly what EVERY voting AMERICAN was faced with. To pick a relevant side and cast a vote.
However, as he accepted the nomination and choose Mike Pence, I started watching him nightly on you tube giving his rally speeches. It was then I started to truly believe he meant to make America great again. I'm certain he was unsure how to do all of it. But, I'm also certain he had/has no intentions of being the one responsible for doing all that. KPC, sixby, and a few others have said this many times and, it is very important for you to hear this. TRUMP is not going to be perfect. You have said this many times. He is also not a dictator.
With all this known and, knowing what was at stake, you personally voted for the lesser of the two evils in your interpretation, knowing that at least one SCOTUS justice was at stake in this election. Knowing that Constitutional Americans were only winning pivot-able constitutional changing decisions by one vote in the supreme court, you willing neglected YOUR responsibility of doing the right thing to protect EVERYONE in this country, to be able to say you are at peace with your conscious. How is it that you believe you have the right to question everyone that decides to be optimistic about our victory in the Supreme Court, having a very God fearing Vice President, and appears to have a soon to be president that is doing a pretty good job of selecting conservative cabinet members, when you wouldn't even do your individual responsibility to ensure your kids, my kids, and the future of All America gets to experience Conservative values?
I have a hard time accepting your insinuation that you deserve the right to do as you wish but, blast everyone for doing what you do. With no recognition of your own hypocrisy here. The big difference between others and yourself, is most of these people did what they did for the future of this country versus just making themselves happy. I'm not denying your GOD given right to do as you wish. I'm questioning why that only applies to you as being a valid option while you dismiss your individual responsibility to protect the Constitution for future Americans.
That's my problem with you and, the way you are handling this. You show up, make wise guy comments about how everyone is wrong concerning this, yet you didn't even decide to man up and do the right thing for the future. I know it is debatable at this point what we are going to end up with concerning Trump. However, it wasn't debatable what we were going to end up with concerning Hillary.
It is petty. Believe me, I wish you no harm and mean not to be rude to you. But, I seriously question the person you truly are by you repeatedly expressing yourself this way after this being pointed out to you about 4,000 times now. How do you rationalize it as acceptable behavior when knowing these reality's? No amount of trying to discuss this in the past led to meaningful dialogue. Just you stating where someone is wrong and, you are right. There are simply so many irony's you over look I could do this all night.
Make no mistake. I believe this country was a GIFT to the world. Men, aren't smart enough to draft our founding document without divine intervention. So, I believe it is OUR duty to do the best for the most. It's our responsibility. And, when someone doesn't, then plays devil advocate to those that did, it doesn't set well. Its one thing to be against trump. I was for a long time. It's another to be condescending every post. God Bless
Bush, but you know the difference between him and Trump? Bush actually had a record as having done some Conservative things and holding Conservative positions. For a long time, not just the time it takes to run a Presidential campaign. Trump has no record as a Conservative, so all you putting your faith in him to all of a sudden BE a Conservative are the ones with the low % position here, not me.
"Based on your own observations on the gutless republicans from the Bush admin to now, at what point do you think they would hold the line against her?"
So if Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton submitted the same Liberal, Un-Constitutional piece of legislation to a Republican majority Congress, who is more likely to get it passed through Congress, Trump or Hillary? Can you answer me that simple question? If your answer is Trump, then you now understand (possibly) what some of my big concerns have always been about a lifelong Liberal Democrat getting elected as a token "republican". If your answer is Hillary, then you're just being dishonest. Do I think the Republican Congress would bend over and take a spanking from a President Hillary on some things? Yes, I do! Do I think they are more likely to bend over and take a spanking from a President Trump - the titular head of their party now - on some of the very same things? You better believe it.
As for the rest of what you said:
1) You seem to be under the impression that I voted for Hillary. I did not, and I said at least 100 times on this forum that I would not vote for either Hillary or Trump. Not sure where you were all those times, but those are the facts.
2) I'm not going to go through point-by-point of everything else you said. You continue to want to celebrate the idea of voting for someone who violates the principles you claim you hold, and at the same time condemning me for not violating the principles that I hold, and packaging it all up with a nice bow by proclaiming that you did "the right thing" and I and others who didn't vote for Trump did the wrong thing. You can't back up that philosophy with anything from the Bible, and certainly from the Constitution, so just what exactly do you draw on for the authority to make that judgement absolutely that me choosing not to vote for either of the two evil choices was objectively the "wrong" thing? You talk about me being in judgement of others choices, buddy, I think you need to take a long look in the mirror yourself.
If you didn't get my reasoning the first 100 times I explained it, I'm not going to waste my time with explanation 101, especially when you're not sincerely interested.
It's now clear that your whole premise on Trump is the word "IF." If frogs had wings, they wouldn't drag their ass on the ground. We have no frigging idea how Trump is going to be as a politician, he's never been one, at least in the political sense.
To the second half of that cut and paste, unless the republicans have grown some balls since the last election, they didn't fight Obamas bullshit offerings too much. Put on a good show sometimes, but eventually gave. I think Hillary would work the gender card to get things by. Trump will get shut down in your scenario. So you tell us; you seem to know how it's going to all play out; perhaps a gift of prognostication the rest of us lack.
I don't know how things are going to play out with Trump. Neither do you. But to borrow a term from Zeiglers hero, I got skin in the game. I'm not up in the cheap seats belly-achin' about the game that hasn't even had the first snap yet.
I'd love it if this country was to the right as far as it could be. It isn't. Never has been. Never will be as it is a democracy. Therefore, It is each of OUR responsibility to pray about who to vote into office to achieve that. I agree, CRUZ initially appeared to be that man. I agree he would have TOE'D the Constitution if he followed his past history. Reversed many of the bad things, given the right Congress, that has been done to our Country's Constitution. But, he didn't win. So, It appears that you think we should all have wrote in our choice of candidate instead. Yep, that surely would have worked out real well for the future of the country.
So, you keep on insulting people. Keep on saying you are justified while, no one else is. Keep on telling everyone how conservative you are and, they aren't because they have decided to follow their conscious instead of your direction. I'll choose to give Trump a chance, and KNOW that I did the right thing in this situation.
I've said it before. I'll say it again one more time. I will support Trump until he gives me a reason not to. I will be critical of him. However, I choose to give him the room to get this going in the right direction for America to fix itself. It took a lot of mis-justice to put this country here. It is going to take someone willing to push that line the other way to get it back.
To put it bluntly, I strongly believe we had only two choices which stood to impact the future of American. I prayed about which one to choose even though I felt I already knew which was the right way. For that reason alone, there is simply no further reason for us to argue and insult each others opinion. We simply will never agree on this topic because you seemed more concerned with sending the GOP a message of discontent. Good luck and God Bless
So the "voting your conscience" thing goes only one way, I see? You get to vote your conscience but I don't get to vote mine?
Just one thing to think about: Did you vote your conscience? Can one vote their conscience and still violate the principles they claim to hold dear? Frankly, I don't see how that's possible, do you? All I've ever been about with my criticism of some Trump voters is holding them accountable to the values and principles they claim they hold. Or at least they claimed so before Trump got in the race for President. You say you voted your conscience. I definitely voted mine, but I didn't violate the values I claim to hold dear in order to do it. I think you, and many other Trump voters, did.
"with sending the GOP a message of discontent"
Nope, that's not it at all, not about the GOP for me, it's about the individual candidate and do they at a minimum support the values I hold most dear. Neither Trump nor Hillary did. Simple as that. Ironically, for many Trump voters, supporting him WAS about sending the GOP a "message of discontent". For many Trump voters, supporting him was their way of "flippin' the bird" to the GOP Establishment. And how has he repaid them? By making big RNC figures his chief of staff, press secretary, and other positions, and putting a bunch of career Washington GOP Establishment people in places of power in his cabinet. Not to mention the Democrats, Goldman Sachs bankers and Russia apologists.
"I am sincerely interested."
PD, no, you're not, you're only interested in seeing that I tow the Trump line. The fact you're still asking for an explanation after all the times I've already explained it shows that very clearly. You haven't received an explanation that you approve.
Ziegler's listeners told him he was wrong, then Ziegler goes Joshuaf and Jimbo on us. Jmo
Especially if he starts betting body parts on his opinions!!
I explained my reasoning and, why it sets well with me. You didn't understand that in context and, choose not to try and understand that now.
Last time to hopefully get your attention. This whole "WHOA is Josh" routine only exists because YOU made it an issue that others voted their conscious yet, defend your right to vote yours. It wasn't the other way around as you are trying to make it appear. No matter how many ways you try to defend it as such. You insulted, belittled, and did everything you could to make others see it your way. So, they pushed back in return with what they were given.
And, when someone calls you out, you can't stay abreast of the debate because you choose to ignore your deficiency's. You make it about everyone. And, make your choices supreme. With no more reasoning than those you ridicule.
Good luck in life and God Bless
You are definitely right on a few things. I do not understand how voting for someone who violates many of the principles you claim to hold dear can be called "voting your conscience". Voting for the "lesser of two evils", sure, you can call it that. But wouldn't following your conscience be to do something that doesn't give you any qualms about your decision? Do you not have any qualms about what a Trump Presidency might bring? I also do not understand why it's okay for you to vote your "conscience" but it's not okay for me to vote mine?
What you and many others still don't get is my criticism of many Trump voters boils down to discrepancies between what they say they believe, and what they by default support by voting for Trump. I am criticizing the In-Consistent (and in some cases just plain Partisan) nature of that position. Youl are criticizing me for being Consistent in what I believe and what I voted for. You really don't get how twisted around that is? That is an ethically bankrupt line of reasoning.
???