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Math Question
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Contributors to this thread:
DL 18-Feb-17
HDE 18-Feb-17
Amoebus 18-Feb-17
ben h 18-Feb-17
Solo 18-Feb-17
orionsbrother 18-Feb-17
bigeasygator 18-Feb-17
HDE 18-Feb-17
orionsbrother 18-Feb-17
Solo 18-Feb-17
Franzen 19-Feb-17
Amoebus 19-Feb-17
DL 19-Feb-17
DL 19-Feb-17
Fivers 20-Feb-17
From: DL
18-Feb-17
I was reading an article on gravity assist used in space travel and they gave an example. If a person was on a railroad platform and threw a tennis ball at 30 kph at an oncoming train going 80kph the ball would leave the train at 130kph. How is that possible?

From: HDE
18-Feb-17
The train, thrower, and ball at 80 kph is in equilibrium. 80 + 30 is 110 kph instantaneously. How fast is a bullet going when shot from a fighter jet? If it wasn't going faster, it would never leave the barrel.

I'm sure I'm wrong though.

From: Amoebus
18-Feb-17
Gravity assist is using a planet/sun to get a spacecraft to further planets/space (without using extra fuel). How was that example helping to visualize that?

Are they saying that the ball would ricochet off of the train? Got a link to the article? The entire gravity assist thing is absolutely amazing math to me.

From: ben h
18-Feb-17
not possible. if it were a purely inelastic collision the max would be 80+30=110 kph, but a tennis ball hitting solid steel object would not be inelastic because the tennis ball would absorb energy by deformation and it would be less.

From: Solo
18-Feb-17
The bounce energy created by the elasticity of the ball does cause an increase in the speed of the ball when being hit by the oncoming train.

Likewise, when a golf ball is hit by a golf club, the speed of the golf ball should be roughly 1.5 times that of the speed of the swing of the club head. This increase in speed is due to the elasticity component of the golf ball.

I know, it's a miracle....

18-Feb-17
Classic physics question. It has to do with frame of reference.

If you are on a train traveling 80kph and throw a ball at 30kph in the direction of travel, to other passengers on the train the ball travels 30kph, to someone standing on the platform in the station the ball travels at 110kph.

If you throw the ball in the opposite direction of travel of the train, to the passengers the ball travels 30kph, but to the guy standing on the platform in the station, the ball travels 50kph in the direction of travel of the train.

It's pretty straightforward... until you accelerate the speed of the train to a crazy speed and instead of throwing a ball, you turn on a flashlight. Special relativity causes time to slow down at higher speeds and the speed of the light is constant whether you are on the train or in the station.

Keep movin'. You'll live longer relative to everybody else.

From: bigeasygator
18-Feb-17
Orionsbrother, I was going to answer that and mentionnrelativity but that's not the scenario the original poster described. First off the ball is traveling at 130 kph in the end. Secondly it makes it sound as though the individual is not on the train.

The author of the article (it would help to read it) seems to be using concepts of kinetic energy to describe gravitational assist. The weight of the object matters in both examples, but they are two entirely different physical phenomena. A tennis ball could very well bounce off a train at 130 kph based on the elasticity of the Ball and the weight of the train (it would bounce off a car traveling at 80 kph at a much slower speed than it would a train).

Regardless, sounds like the example was concocted by a journalist and not a scientist!

From: HDE
18-Feb-17
I read the problem wrong. Ignore my post.

18-Feb-17
Ha! You're right bigeasygator. Might help if I actually slowed down and read what was posted and then typed. Idiot!

So... frame of reference still comes into play.

In an elastic collision, a ball will bounce off a wall with the same speed that it was thrown at the wall. Imagine that you're in the locomotive. Your frame of reference is essentially the front of the train. Which is our wall.

The train is moving 80kph to the left. The ball is thrown 30kph to the right. In your frame of reference, the ball is approaching you and the wall at 110kph... (80kph + 30kph) and since this is an elastic collision, it will rebound from your frame of reference at 110kph away from you in the direction of travel of the train... but your frame of reference is moving 80kph away from the guy on the platform who sees the ball fly off at 190kph... not 130kph.

... but from a fixed point in space, the Earth is rotating on its axis and orbiting the sun. So it could actually all be moving backwards...

From: Solo
18-Feb-17
There is a link to a website on this? I must've missed it somewhere along the way....

From: Franzen
19-Feb-17
Let's not forget you can only consider the components of the velocities that are directly in line... but I guess since we are talking theoretical only, the platform could be right on top of the tracks. ;^)

From: Amoebus
19-Feb-17

Amoebus's Link
I found this on the NASA page (my browser doesn't show the 'cartoon' pictures they are describing which makes it tough):

"Another analogy, illustrated by the cartoon at right, involves a moving railroad train that represents Jupiter, moving along its track about the Sun. The kid in the propeller beanie throws a tennis ball that represents a spacecraft. It encounters the train, which transfers its momentum into the ball.

It's interesting to note the speeds in the cartoon. The propeller-beanie kid sees his tennis ball moving away from him at 30 miles per hour. So does the Sun, sitting on the stationary platform. The engineer driving the train sees the ball coming at about 80 MPH, since the train is moving 50 MPH with respect to the ground. The train and ball interact at 80 MPH. The ball rebounds from the front of the train at nearly the same 80 MPH, which can be added to the 50 MPH speed of the train, because it acquired it from the train. The result approaches a total of 130 MPH. This scenario is analogous the velocity of a spacecraft being added to the velocity of the massive speeding planet, and "rebounding" with a higher velocity still (although the spacecraft's "rebound" is a gravitational, rather than a mechanical, interaction, like in the baseball analogy)."

From: DL
19-Feb-17

DL's Link
It was under gravity assist on wikipedia. I spent my youth hunting almost everyday of my life. Then throw in fishing and trapping. I hated school and set a record for most days cut. Quit an accomplishment since my house was right across the street from school. You smart fellas saw the big picture and people like me have to always ask the why and how questions. Thanks everyone.

From: DL
19-Feb-17
I enjoyed the movie The Martian and Apollo 13 a great deal. It shows what man is capabele of under extreme stress. Of course the Martian is fairytale but Apollo 13 was real and nerds with slide rules, not calculators and computers sent men to the moon and brought them home. Now calculators are used in teaching. Students will no longer be able to figure equations out without the aide of electronics or be able to read cursive. I wonder watch the next change will be?

From: Fivers
20-Feb-17
Talking of speed and golf balls, just for fun some time when no other vehicles are on the highway, drop a golf ball out of your window while driving the speed limit on a paved road.....then throw the golf ball ahead of your vehicle at that speed too. Try to see how high the ball goes, it's pretty impressive and kind of relates to this question.

Caution: Only the passengers should try to track the dropped/thrown ball, the driver should always keep their eyes on the road.

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