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The Potomac flows red

Funny, I was fishing there this past weekend and didn't even notice. It sure didn't hurt the white perch fishing none.

Good article Spike, Wow that chart really drives home the point.

I hope that by electing a businessman who understands debt, and has survived economic ups and downs, we have a chance of improving things.

But yet the business man hasn't cut total spending. He just moved it around.

Trump's proposed discretionary budget has been out for a few weeks....and there's no significant reduction in spending.

Of course, the discretionary budget isn't the real problem. It will take major legislation to address the debt in any significant way. And that could get ugly for us "longer in the tooth" folks.

Matt

The size of the national debt, and its continuing growth, will create a mathematically unavoidable national crisis soon. We've been saying that since 1995, and things continue to get worse. Even a 1 point increase in the interest on the national debt will create a financial train wreck at this point.

The thing that will drive this off the cliff is when interest rates begin to rise. Collusion between obama and the feds kept it artificially low while he was in office which somewhat masked the real cost of borrowing so much money. A small rise in interest rates will result in a huge rise in the deficit.

Spike,

Trump has pressured the Fed to RAISE interest rates.

"Of course, the discretionary budget isn't the real problem."

And Trump has made it abundantly clear that he has no intention of touching entitlements.

Pig Doc,

Part of your post above seems to have disappeared. I thought you said something about "no budget" and a "imbecile", didn't you? ;-)

Smarter men than I have tried to figure out our nation's financial problems and failed, so I have no definitive solutions. I do know it's better to be a saver than a borrower when interests rates start rising.

Matt

Pig Doc,

I wasn't looking to debate Trump's proposed budget. He just moved money around, but didn't decrease spending. That's old news.

Now he's proposing to cut what's funding that spending. We'll see how that works out.

Matt

The country is a financial mess and not one single representative will cut one dollar from entitlements. The only people capable of getting this behemoth under control are those not concerned with re-election plans. I was in route today to a construction bid proposal in center city Philadelphia and a traffic delay revealed a frightening future for this country. Immigrants and minorities were packed like sardines spilling off the sidewalks, most walking with women pushing strollers and talking on cell phones. Many of the young men wore shorts and the women casual clothing. Through squinted eyes America's single and largest financial problem became evident which I had, of course previously understood. To actually see t this herd of people enmasse is eye opening to say the least. This being one area in one city of America. If you believe the debt will EVER come under control with an albatross of this scope around your neck you are blind walking around without a cane. Trump can reign in all the trade agreements he could ever handle and in the process have China waive our debt to $0.00 and this hole will continue to mount. This social structure of financial programs is insurmountable. The American well has been sucked dry and today I witnessed smiling faces. You will never know until you are in the midst rubbing elbows with the problem but every working and productive member in American society seems to miraculously know the right course of action. Meanwhile the hole grows wider and deeper and just as puzzling is every tooth is visible. Sad but true. Donald Trump came along 40 years too late. The game is over. America has purchased a one way ticket to the resurrection and has crossed the political Rubicon.

The Rock

The Rock,

Once again, your hyperbole belies your point.

Welfare represents around 7% of our government's spending. It is NOT the "single" nor the "largest" financial problem...not by a long shot.

If we are going to stop deficit spending, and address the nation's debt, the big slices of the pie chart above will need to be reduced, somehow.

The Matt

Pig Doc,

I'm pretty sure Social Security is the vast majority of the pension slice. I wouldn't consider that welfare. I do agree much of health care is welfare.

Matt

When the largest employer in the country is the government, there is a problem...

GG,

You had better define welfare and the components that they fund directly, indirectly and that they encompass. Your short sighted vision of a welfare check to a family of four is the knee jerk reaction predicated from a supplied pie chart exposing the ludicrous expenditures as provided from the government. Is this chart your own investigative numbers?

btw......defense expendituers in part is welfare to a foreign state and we provide to many. Health is welfare across a wide spectrum. Education is welfare in subsidy partition. When America provides a financial based service without restitution or repayment it is considered welfare. Call it whatever you wish. Welfare in all its forms is sinking this nation and it win continue unabated. I have mathematical certainties of facts to buttress not only my argument but fact. Start cutting away at that pie chart. Start with "other spending" @ 8% and see how far you get with that "welfare" disguise. Place this is in your pie chart: 35.5% of the American population were collecting means tested welfare in one form or another in the year 2012, omitting veterans, and today that number is closer to 48.4%. Mathematics claim loud and clear the standard of living in America will continue to decline and we are well on our way to Greece 2, The Sequel.

The Rock

Spike,

Rocky made a valid point, he just exaggerated the impact of welfare to immigrants has on overall spending. When you carve those small pieces from the pie, the lion's share of the pie still remains.

To me, SS and medicare are mostly forced savings plans, not welfare. The amount of benefits you receive is based on how much you put in. The numbers I've seen indicate most workers receive slightly more in benefits than they pay into those programs, but not by much.

We can argue whether forcing people to participate in savings plans is the governments responsibility, or not. I would say not. But I don't consider those programs welfare.

Matt

I think it's deceptive on the part of the pie chart creators to take the entitlement spending and break it into small parts, so it does not look so bad. SSI and medicare, for two, are on the inflation-based autopilot, and so, should be treated similarly. Entitlement spending is a huge % of the federal budget, but that graphic makes it look like those expenditures are minimal.

Either way, take 40% of that pie chart, and erase it. That should be the next federal budget.

The Rock,

The pie chart I provided came form the above link. They do give further detail of each slice, if you dig around a bit. And, yes, I believe all the data is based on government supplied reports, so take it for what it's worth.

I don't know where to get more accurate numbers than what the government provides. Everyone seems to believe the nation's debt numbers are accurate. Those come from the same sources. So it's disingenuous to claim the spending numbers aren't accurate, IMO.

Matt

We are sinking [sunk] into an abyss of debt, and the only way out is to start cutting. A little everywhere and then pick up the pace where it makes sense. At the same time we need to rebuild the military (only half of our planes are combat ready, our B52's over 60 years old, etc...) which makes the economic balance near impossible.

The anecdotal evidence Rock provides can't be overlooked. Just stop in a Walmart on any work day, and SEE the people who are not at work with their shopping carts overflowing with flat screen TV's and other non-essential products. Its amazing. And you just have to wonder where the money is coming from...

Long read but well worth it; some striking parallels.....

I've never heard of this site before today but I did peruse the article quickly and it also looks like a good read.

GG, I agree that we must start somewhere to arrive at expenditures and the pie chart per A pie chart provided is a indeed a start. How the percentages are graphed to within ratio and proportions of that pie is suspect. At first glance the chart is sliced to be palatable to the roving eye but dig deeper and watch those slices increase as bk stated. One pie, one chart, 360, but the filling and its contents do not truthfully fulfill your taste buds viewing the advance billing. We are drowning in entitlements in all its forms. What I had witnessed that day was a microcosm and mindset of accepted American waste, heaped upon all else dragging us down the tubes. Contributions from that which is left of our productive society is a losing battle to carry such weight. Weight can stop a train.

The Rock

The Rock,

The original premise of this thread assumes the supplied graph shows an accurate depiction of our nation's debt versus revenue and spending. If you believe the debt is accurate, then you have to believe the spending and revenue portions of the graph are also accurate.

The link I supplied reflects those same numbers, I suspect because the info came from the same sources, but it goes into much further detail. So, sans having no other sources of more accurate info, we either believe all of the government's numbers, or none of them.

The cynic in me struggles to believe any of it, but that would make for a boring conversation on the matter. ;-)

Matt

GG,

Yes. I would like to believe it myself if for nothing more than patriotic duty. Sausage. I do love it but only when I KNOW what is going into the casing. ;-)

Mike in CT,

I read the entire article. Striking is placing it mildly. "Handbook" or "blueprint" may be better words concerning America's future as we sit this day.

The Rock

Assuming it's accurate, I think we can all agree Spike's graph shows how devastating compounding interest, and using new debt to service old dept, can be on any budget.

Apparently most legislators slept thru their lessons on exponential growth in junior high math class.

Matt

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