Or any other religion. Which includes islam...
Anony Mous can and has posted about what has happened in the school districts of Dearborn. It's real.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaplain_of_the_United_States_Senate
Mexicans can do it, why not the rest of us who are actually LEGAL CITIZENS? Screw the courts, just like they have.
That's it. No "separation of church and state"......no other liberal b.s. That's all the Constitution has to say about it. Not difficult to understand at all.....unless you're a dumbass. Or you have an anti American leftist agenda to push.
I encourage one of you non-dumb-assess to take it to court, since you have such a clear understanding of our Constitution.
Is the sky always falling in your worlds? Or are you just that dumb or bored? America is a great country, always has been. Lot's of opportunity and an awesome place to live. Some people will always see the glass as half-empty and be afraid of other people, religions and ideas. I guess that's you-guys. It'll be ok guys. Conservatives like me will protect you (from the scary Muslims and Mexicans. So, so scary).
Actually, no, most people who read, as opposed to read into things are probably scratching their heads over why there would be any issue over this.
In what way is the existence of the Chaplain "establishing a religion?" In what way is it "preventing the free exercise thereof?" (any other religion)
How many religions have ceased to exist in the United States or had their practices infringed upon due to the existence of this Chaplain?
How many citizens have been forced to adopt a new religion due to the existence of this Chaplain?
Probably the same number of Muslims who have had to forsake the Qu' ran as a result of the existence of this Chaplain; zero, zip, zilch, nada.
On the whole you seem poorly qualified to lecture anyone on their understanding of the First Amendment.
What has been done in MI can be undone pretty easy. Problem is, it takes a federal judge with some balls to do it...
And what's wrong with that?
Point made, and point taken.
Thank-you.
I realized one Sunday while actually reciting my assigned lesson regarding some of "the miracles" in Sunday school, that I actually had no belief in the "factual truth" as it's now called, of a word of that lesson and that it was intended to be believed by the adherents speaking it and listening to it!
At that point, my personal epiphany, I became agnostic. I was 10 years old. It took four more years of studying the matter before I felt really confirmed in my atheism.
The same year that I realized my lack of faith, the government found theirs, and required the recital of "under God" as part f our daily pledge of allegiance to our country. Amazingly, that requirement in our public schools, led by a publicly paid leader and authority figure, was not considered to be a violation of the first amendment, only a wise political move on the part of the legislators during the McCarthy years.
I can attest that it did create an atmosphere of anyone with doubts as to the most popular belief system feeling "outcast" and being seen as unpatriotic, even though I knew there had never been an unpatriotic thought in my head.
I suppose, thinking back on it, that I have that moment to thank for my early suspicion of most anything the government said thereafter. Not that I automatically discounted completely everything the government said, but it was automatically included in the same level of suspicion that given the spiels from TV or magazine ads.
I have spent some time studying the beliefs of the founders of the country, and found it to be very interesting reading for the most part, if one is able to separate the wheat from the chaff. One hint: anything from David Barton is not really "wheat".
I have had some reservations about some of the changes over the many years since the country was born but I think most of would agree that even if the founding fathers were mostly slaveholders and wealthy, the eventual inclusion of full inclusion to citizenship of women and people of other skin tones was proper and probably overdue. Still not sure about suffrage for non-property-holders, and voters under the age of 21.
Before : "Our beliefs, tend to lead our findings in discovery". After: It is interesting that when you were only 10 years old that you set the end position before yourself and further labored for 4 years under the same. Sounds like Catholic school system of indoctrination to me or something like it. Four years of study before 15 years old on something you already determined ? Again ,sounds like a coercive environment .(Force) Perhaps this is what you were really losing belief in. Certainly your thinking was still adolescent. I will not directly try to prove God to you but I will ask that you ponder these questions. Where in the known universe , does nothing ever suddenly appear and more specifically develop into a complex system , further, with thought, consciousness and irreducible complexity ? How do we get to here from non-existence ? Does raw matter have a will to exist ? What is the substance and drive force behind the thing we call life ? What makes the spark in the beginning , ours individually or in the biggest picture ,of the first life to begin ? You may likely attempt to insert a secondary effect of evolution into the explanation but that will not answer the primary mover (first mover) issue nor the result of our current condition. Into what form are we evolved and from what catalyst are we driven ? The scientist and logician knows that" Nothing begets nothing ... not something" . At least as far as we observe and reason out. (that's all we have).
Not defending the history of our world here either but when we study the condition of those early years it was a commonplace and not an anomaly to hold slaves , have indentured servants and that people with wealth had something to bargain with. Man developed with this old world behavior and it was not exclusive to the developing Nation that we formed under. As I am sure that you must be aware of this.
It is a unique experiment in the here and now to wonder why would anyone willingly place in another persons hands , that which is rightly his own ? Why would the adults of our society ever forgo their rights and ask the whims of the unlearned and inexperienced to lead them ? That seems to be the anomaly that we face here and now and is the mechanism by which order has given way to chaos. Counter intuitive. Adding more to that adopted chaotic theory/experiment does not seem logically to lead to greater advancement but perhaps the intended undoing of it.
In a final though : If there is no God it is all relative which serves chaos ... if there is God there is order. His order. And if He is , then it is imperative for freedom of your will and independence to have the epitome of the opposite exist also, namely the force of Evil. It is not under chaos that our civilization has advanced to this place where you are free to ponder and descent in thought . It is from that greater understanding that our Forefathers built and developed that very freedom of your free will . They did not however intend to put chaos or the unlearned in charge. The youngster doesn't have the character or good mind to vote for what will advance our condition unless he has the parenting and education, both intellectual and Spiritual , that leads the way and it is known to him that the other way is a recipe for disaster. 21 is just a number ... Education should be the standard. May God grace you with understanding.
The conundrum of silence is that it is as offensive to a practitioner of faith as public prayer is to an unbeliever. Interjecting a void into that scenario is nonsensical because we all know that voids represent something very real. Namely, human secularism, agnosticism or atheism. So, at the end of the day, governing bodies are still observing religion.
Perhaps you disagree with Jesus (The true Christian belief) and that is your POV , your belief , but He is the authority we should defer to on matters of this nature. Nothing else begins to answer the reality of our existence, a pathway to a righteous life or answers the what and how of the after experience. Some philosophies and beliefs work well enough to keep us less disgusting while we share this earth but none really bring us home and answer the hard questions of what pleases The Maker. And none other asks you to depend on a Higher being for the transformation of our life in the flesh to our awakening of the spiritual life (None that are not flawed that is) . It works and delivers it's promises. The rest of the "ways of man, broken religions and philosophy " are man leading himself and that leads to a poor way of living and a tragically sad ending. Or is God wrong ? Is the story leading up to our Savior and the fulfillment of the prophets of Jesus a fabrication , unworthy of acceptance ? Was His righteous life and sacrifice not enough That boarders on the unforgivable sin . The first commandment ... To believe with all you have and corrupts the second ,which is to love each other as you would be loved... And as He loved us. Where is your creator , what are its rules and promises ? Feel free to personal mail me or take a whack at it right here.
"When your body gives up your ghost/spirit, depending on your POV as you leave your body will determine what you the spiritual being are likely to progress towards" How would you know this to be true ? As if your POV is in control . Again this is not what Jesus preached and I trust His words and wisdom . Take it up with Him. Your position makes Him a liar. Argue against the word and we can get somewhere . Otherwise state your foundation for your position. If you are shooting from the hip then perhaps you should study the great minds and their reasoning and flaws. These things are spiritually discerned but logically discussed. I didn't misunderstand you , I simply disagree with your statement. As did Jesus and many others.
I learned the basics of Philosophy (Phi. 101) at URI many years ago in my first year ,of many years of college studies . I went on to receive a masters degree . Furthermore ,Recipient of a Chancellors award/scholarship ( based upon and requiring performance and academe excellence) I succeeded with an A average throughout my undergraduate and Graduate work At U-Mass, Amherst and Pratt institute Brooklyn NY. I have been entrusted to counsel , teach and advise, at a few of the best Academic institutions in NE. I am certain of my criticism of your illogical statement on 2 fronts ( Logic and Christianity). Laugh at will friend , I was only trying to help. Best regards. - Pi
Freedom of choice in these matters is good. If we are all allowed only one approved train of thought, most of us will be disappointed with many of the details.
Jefferson said we should all question the established pre-suppositions in life, even to questioning the existence of God, and make up our own minds as to the truth. He valued the mind of man in separating reason from blind obedience to any existing philosophies. He was strongly against the mixing of religion and government all his life, as were several of the other leading figures in our country's beginnings, notably Payne, Franklin and Madison. They were not all atheists, although a few were, at least at various points in their lives. Mostly they just believed that both religion and government would benefit from being separate, having seen the problems of the previous couple of millennia of church and state being intertwined in Europe and the Near East.
There are always some interesting points to argue in such discussions. One is touched on above; is atheism a religion? I think most religious leaders would prefer to think not, and I suspect most of us atheists would agree with our believer counterparts on that question 8^). The quote I liked best on that matter was "If atheism is a religion, is NOT collecting stamps a hobby?".
Much fun as it is to discuss such matters, I'll have to take a break and get ready for our annual family reunion this afternoon. Later.
Rhody, There are no more versions of the truth than there are versions of gravity. Mere perspective is not truth; it is too incomplete to be so.
That leaves two options for how we respond. We believe it, or we do not.
If we believe it, we have heavy obligations to live accordingly.
If we do not, then we declare Jesus to be a liar, thus irrelevant and powerless - someone to be ignored if he even ever existed.
Anyone who chooses the second option then logically should never use the Christianity, The Bible, or the supposed words of Jesus as a point in any logical discussion.
You and I have both seen people who want to deny the God of the Bible, and in the same breath make a statement something like "Jesus said we should ....." You can't have it both ways.
Also, "I believe the Bible, but....." Just does not work! If it is true, it is entirely true. If it is not entirely true, then none of it is valid.
One must believe that stamps don't exist , to make it the same. One must depend on the non-existence of stamps and trust that reasoning.
Having different viewpoints does not make all views equal. No more equal than various wrong answers to a math equation is to the correct one. All the wrong answers are equal to an extent but not to the one that stands up to all the required terms of being right. Argue with the mathematician about that.
It is good for God deniers and people of false belief to attack the validity of the words and concepts as found, (in all attempts to claim direct knowledge of our Creator) and to reason out the probability of one being right and the others wrong. That is the same process that has brought most people to the point of their belief. But we must have some aptitude to do the math so to speak. I trust the dialogue in defense of a Christian viewpoint because it answers the assault perfectly , as no other "belief" does. Barring another equally valid option, one is ultimately faced with this belief as the correct one or the wilful denial of the only possible correct answer.
And as you know, Stamps do exist. To believe otherwise is a wilful denial... The only unforgivable offense to Stamp people.
If it is an intellectual approach to the question of God and what / who God is vs. no God, then have at it. But before you do try some basic and then advanced testing as to your math / logic abilities. See next post.
Good will to you friend . Keep trying ,looking, thinking .
There are three switches in the basement and three light-bulbs/fixtures (all working of course) in the attic. One for each switch/light combo. You may travel only once up the stairs and you are alone. You need to label the switches correctly with only one try. Figure it out.
Now for a hard one. Einsteins riddle. Who has the fish ? You must search this riddle under this title . Good luck .
After , if you are successful with the above , then you qualify to handle the similar riddle of God's existence by reason . Otherwise one is dabbling in various wrong answers and lacking the aptitude to reason out the correct one.
Aptitude and information. Do you have it ?
Roughly translated but still a good one from about 80 years ago told to me by my Dad.
Sounds like He is in control of that basic draw to Himself. The remaining "control" is ego and arrogance. Resistance or acceptance. Hence, that wise president was only partially correct. Or perhaps he was correct if he was saying the decision is yours to make , against the draw of God.
As everyone should be able to solve the first riddle and I don't feel like I'm giving anything hard away the easiest means to solving the question is to pick 2 of the 3 lights switches (perhaps for ease of remembering go with 1 and 2) and switch both on at the same time. Next, wait a little while and turn one of the 2 switches off. Go up into the attic and one light will be on, one bulb will be warm to the touch and one bulb will be cool. Whatever the order and condition of the bulbs you'll have the switches they go to figured out.
I won't go into the steps to solving Einstein's Riddle but will provide the final answer; the German has the fish. Fun to reason out, very much like Sudoku for those who dabble in that puzzle art.
And since I'm already a Christian the exercise was really moot but it was fun nonetheless.....
I don't see the direct correlation between the solving of such puzzles and solving the riddle of our existence, aside from the application of logic by a working mind, and I have always found that to result in a different answer than you seem to have come up with.
We do agree that it's good to keep thinking, always. 8^)
Logic can point to God but not by focusing on what Sister Mary Catherine was teaching in our youth.
When I was 3 1/2 years old I fell from the upper deck when dad was fixing the railing. 10 + feet . Had two cherubs talk to me on the way down. No injury . I had a chat with God when I was 10 years old . After falling into a stairwell from the edge of our local Library. (I climbed over the rail to walk the ridge but slipped ) Sustained 2 badly broken wrists and a deep fracture to the skull. I rose from the body and He told me my purpose would be reveled and 40 years later it all was . Full clarity on my life and what He was indicating, what He wants of us. If you want the full story I will oblige .
It doesn't take brains but it doesn't hurt . Falling on my head ... Now that hurt.
two: The winners in number one don't use force . Leaving your opinion wanting.
Two: That which is factual, on any given issue, has no dependence on plurality of observance. Facts exist beyond the scope of any understanding or acceptance so, the unsuccessful can be merely that - unsuccessful. Christ or any other worshiped God does not need a consensus to exist. But, to be right, they must be really what they claim to be.
