Everipedia.com reports that Geary Danley was another angry far-left shooter –
Geary Danley is a fan of the The Rachel Maddow Show? and liked several pages on Facebook? including Thank You Obama, Anti-Trump Army, Progressive Day, Organizing for Action, Not My President, Proud to Be A Democrat, Fight Trump, Boycott All Things Trump, and Impeach Trump. Geary is a Democrat and is registered to vote in Washoe County, Nevada?.
Wait for it ---------- CNN doesn't know enough information yet to jump to conclusions ? But soon, It will be Trump and the NRA's fault. Watching as I type this, and it's already slowly starting on CNN, brace yourself for another round of assualt weapons ban.
The video clip I heard sounded like much faster rate of fire than one guy could pull a trigger. But maybe not full auto fast. Sounded like one of those trigger gimmicks for rapid fire with a drum mag, if not an actual full auto weapon.
Obama has taken to twitter and called it "another senseless tragedy". It is another senseless tragedy and much worse, I got the impression Obama is going to use this shooting as another motive to get vocal for gun control. I don't think he is sincere in his caring for victims. Unfortunately many people still listen to him. This shooting will be become another political gun control brawl. I hope I'm wrong.
Russians News (RT) is saying that Reuters reports the guy converted to Islam a few months ago and this was an ISIS attack. But that seems hard to believe. Would need to see better research on that claim....
Over 50 dead, and 406+ wounded or injured ..... didnt hear about this till I just woke up this AM .... Trump is on TV now, great remarks from him !! ..... prayers to all injured/dead .... the anti-gun push now will be YUUuge ... just watch .... to early to say what the motive was ...let the investigation play out ....
You are so right JTV, the America hating leftists never let a crisis go to waste and the blind dumb sheep liberals will follow them to their own end. Of course, fully automatic (and I have heard that at least one weapon was fully auto) are already illegal without special permit which he didn't have, and of course shooting from a hotel balcony/window is already illegal too. More laws and more stripping of a citizens liberty will fix nothing except to embolden the criminals. Identifying our enemies and better all around security will.
This is a national tragedy. Prayers and condolences to all victims and family.
No matter who/what was the motive and behind this, anytime you get a group of people so closely together they open themselves up to the possibility of an attack...this could have been done by a Truck or even a plane, we've seen it happen already..... vehicles driven into crowds .... so does one continue to live ones life and brush this off and continue to go to huge events like this, or does one hunker down and stop going into public where crowds gather ? .... one thing for sure, any show/concert/ball game/sporting event, etc. they are going to have to look closely at how to make these venues even safer ....
The mode, or mechanism, of the attack is irrelevant. I am interested into what caused the attack.
Of course, the heartless bastards of the progressive left (yeah, you obama and clinton) are immediately more worried about gun control measures than what parents are going through right now with their deceased or wounded sons and daughters.
Their idea is to punish everyone for another's actions. Group punishment is for weaklings.
I've been at trade shows in Vegas where there were hundreds of weapons coming and going out of hotel rooms. This is tragic. Of course everyone wants to avoid this type of thing from happening but attacking innocent people is cause by evil, mental illness or a combination of the two. You can't legislate either of those away and of course anyone willing to break the law saying you can't murder people certainly isn't too worried about obeying lessor laws.
Pretty tough to guard against a lone crazy guy. The level of freedom that has to be lost to be safe from harm everywhere is intolerable.
I was gone all day yesterday and just checked to get updated on world news this morning... and this
I am just so sad that such senseless violent murder against unarmed civilians. We are clearly seeing the result of a psychopath that has no moral value for human life.
Speculation: clearly intentional, planned and executed. Islamic terror is on this level or psychotic drugs are in the mix.
It seems that these are the 2 top reasons why such an event takes place.
Then there is the third. A liberal Snowflake believing some fake news BS perpetuated upon us by the MSM and had taken it to heart to do something about it violently as what happened in DC on Republicans baseball practice.
Outstanding job by Las Vegas Metro,,,,,,,, I could not comment this early in the investigation, but my career of 32 years was law enforcement..... Make no mistake, this was well planned,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, That position was picked, also multiple (2) position stages, and I would bet, the weaponry included at least a bi pod, (just a guess)........
Easy to move pelican type cases or whatever was used, in the hotels,,,, That soft target, gave him opportunity,,,,, God Bless all the victims and families
Yep, the liberals are starting to run with this tragedy. Senator Chris Murphy and Hilda herself are calling for gun control. Gun control as a political motive, even though it would have ZERO affect on stopping such crime. I have to believe they are smart enough to know what they want will solve nothing, they just expect the blind dumb sheep liberal voter to mass together and devour this lie. Part of the leftist master plan. What they want is to confiscate all guns. They know they can't do this, yet. They will move to make it far more difficult to purchase guns, purchase ammo, and FAR more expensive. They will move to restrict semi-autos and pistols. They must restrict before they can confiscate, which they know is many years down the road. We the people must call them out for the lying trash that they are and stand strong to the truth. The truth being no law would have stopped a mad man from committing this crime. There are countless soft targets in this country, we must identify the enemy and all venues must be better prepared to stop them. When you enter a hotel in Rome they take both your passport and your luggage. I know, I was just there. After an hour you get them back, after a background check was once again run and they helped themselves to your luggage. We are heading in that direction. Better security all around.
This is a truly tragic event. Think of everything that the families involved must be going through. It's nice to see that some people on this thread actually care about the victims in this tragic incident, and not about how it might affect their ability to purchase an automatic weapon.
"in their eyes never let a tragedy go to waste ... sickening."
Curious what this forum would look like if the shooter's name was "Mohammed" instead of "Stephen"...
That aside, it will be interesting to see how this one develops. Seems that thus far the shooter doesn't fit any of the normal molds. As someone who owns about 20 different carbines and PDWs, I'm also curious to learn what this guy's arsenal was. If anyone listened to the audio of the event, that certainly did not sound like a gun on semi-automatic. Sounded a little to slow to be full-auto so I'm gonna guess it was one of those bump-fire/slide-fire conversion kits. For that many people to have died and also get injured I'm curious to know how many rounds this guy fired off as well.
That said, those questions will be answered and certainly at the moment thoughts are with the people directly and indirectly affected by these evil events. What a senseless tragedy. Thoughts and prayers to those people.
"Curious what this forum would look like if the shooter's name was "Mohammed" instead of "Stephen"... "
Why would it look any different bigeasyliberal all things being the same? There are rumors that ISIS has claimed this shooting, that the shooter whatever his name had recently converted to their slime. Nobody has commented including me (beyond it's a rumor) since it isn't documented. If this was an act by the islamic swine then we'll take it from there.
" and not about how it might affect their ability to purchase an automatic weapon. "
Yeah, if you'll have someone read all posts for you you'll find many of us have already given condolences. Some of us are interested in doing something to limit the chances of this from happening again and that begins with identifying our enemy. Some of us at the same time want to protect our Constitution and the citizens it protects which the stinking liberals immediately have claimed this crisis and are moving to do that very thing in attacking it. I guess those liberals get a pass from the Irish. Automatic weapon you say? Who has said anything about protecting the right for citizens to purchase "automatic" weapons?
When there is a tragedy my first thought is never restricting the rights of others.
When a Muslim terrorist drives a van into a crowd, I don't consider outlawing vans or driving. When they fly a plane into a building I don't consider outlawing air travel.
When Antifa or BLM turns a protest into a riot, I don't consider outlawing the right peacefully assemble. When NFL players sit or kneel with a fist up during the anthem, I don't consider infringing people's 1st amendment rights as an option to end it.
Less freedom and more Government control over the good guys isn't the answer to evil, mental illness or violent ideology.
"Curious what this forum would look like if the shooter's name was "Mohammed" instead of "Stephen"... "
What does that have to do with anything BEG? You're no better than Obama or Hillary. The Left is already calling out the NRA about gun control. Meanwhile the 58 innocent victims laying in the morgue will be brushed aside because of anti gun politics will take center stage.
BEG is just letting his liberalness show thru.... Yea, ALREADY Clinton and half a dozen or more DEMOCRATS are clamoring for gun control ( may they rot in hell themselves)... hell, the blood hasnt even been washed down yet and these idiots are mouthing off ... the investigation isnt completed ...no one knows what this madmans motivation was, why he singled out a country music concert, who was he mad at ....
You miss the point at hand Cumm, leaders of the leftist/socialist movement haven't missed a beat and are attacking with glee. Condolences have been given, now you can sit with a fist up your colon or you can fight the attack coming from the left at this very moment. It's a sure thing you'll pat yourself on the backside either way you choose.
Who is "WE" ... just what do YOU want done KPC ??... cry for 'em ?? ... its tragic what happened, there will be time to grieve and repair ourselves .... right now, it is the friggin' Dems already bring the politics into it, as is the piss ant Media, CNN/MSNBC isnt helping right now... this plays right into their agenda and narratives... they are the ones with no shame ...
A lot to come out I would guess. When something makes no sense its usually because all the puzzle pieces aren't there. It won't be any less tragic, rare, or awful, but we might at least have a clue what flipped his switch.
Ahhh, you can't be that dumb Cumm. The fight is with the liberals who already as soon as in the dark of this early morning were playing leftist political mind games screaming for "gun control" and blaming everyone from the Republicans to groups like the NRA. Maybe you can be that dumb, continue to prove it to us.
Proof served. Now cry yourself to sleep Cumm, you'll feel better for it.
I don't know much about Savage, I'd like to read his comments in context which I will do. If so that doesn't make him any more right on the matter than it would big Rach Maddow. What I would like to hear is an explanation as to how restricting guns that are today legal or confiscation would change anything. What this maniac did is already illegal, and some of the weapons already illegal possibly. Meth and heroin are illegal, right? That has stopped their availability, right?
OK, found it. Savage said on his radio show today apparently that both "drum" magazines and full body armor should be banned. I guess he said nothing else supporting gun control. Banning full body armor would not prevent anyone from obtaining it, and of course would have prevented nothing here. People no matter the persuasion who do not hunt or actively shoot at ranges often times think banning expanded clips would prevent mass shootings. What is the difference between one 50 shot clip and 5 10 shot clips? Seconds, mere seconds. And again, banning them would be no different than banning meth. You want it you'll still find it. No problemo.
On the bright side, WW didn't post a thread claiming the media was covering up the shooters race because he was black.
I began avoiding large crowds years ago mostly for this very reason. You won't find me at any stadiums, concerts, rallies, festivals, or any place where there's thousands of sitting ducks for nut cases like this to target. That, and I just don't like large crowds.
I called them to Rip them a new asshole, and the call screener stopped me: "She's no longer an employee. " kudos to CBS on this one..That stupid, nasty comment will follow her FOREVER. NYC lib. I'm with Whitey. There will be plenty of time to debate the issue but, their side never sleeps. There right at it. Lowlife. BTW Tom Petty dead. Mad Dog
Unlike you apparently, nothing having to do with this situation brightens my day. The fact that an idiot was fired will not bring one of these lives back, or prevent another from being taken in the future.
It has to do with the irony and hypocrisy of the folks on this forum who are ready to politicize every Muslim terrorist attack and call for bans, restrictions, etc the INSTANT it comes out the terrorist had a Muslim name but are outraged that the left would do the same the second some whacko mows down dozens of people at a concert. The different reactions for what are, on the surface, very similar events (i.e., attacks on innocent people committed by an extremist minority that doesn't reflect the views and actions of the law abiding majority of that group) is alarming.
I can at least stand up and show that I'm consistent on both issues and have a track record of supporting positions that don't diminish the freedoms in this country, particularly when those freedoms are challenged because of the actions of a fringe, extremist minority.
"Of course, the heartless bastards of the progressive left...are immediately more worried about gun control measures than what parents are going through right now with their deceased or wounded sons and daughters."
Right now, the one publicly raising the issue is hillary rodham clinton, first runner up in the 2016 Presidential Election. My how the discussion would be a 180 difference had she won...
Typical leftist, dumba$$ mind set. GUN CONTROL. The gun didn't pull the trigger. These thugs don't care if we take away the semi, and auto rifles. They have their own. That's what these thugs want us to do. The thugs realize how stupid the dems are. Taking these weapons from the LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, while the thugs have theirs, makes America less safe. Need to bring back the death penalty, for killing someone. It's not the GUNS fault. These dumba$$ dems, and their backers. What a bunch of morons. They yell gun control, and at the same time, want our borders wide open, to let thugs in, with auto rifles, and when these thugs start killing our people, the dems and their idiot backers, want to take the law abiding citizens guns away. Hey dems, and their backers, Take a hike, and move out of the U.S., JACKA$$ES.
I spent the last three years working in Vegas. I would have been at this show if I was still working there. I've been on the phone all day. Pray for the dead and the survivors and thier family and friends. Vegas will never be the same.
273 Days in to 2017 and we have had over 250 mass shootings (four or more dead). Not sure what we do, but if we wouldn't do anything after Sandy Hook, I doubt if we'll do anything now. These tragedies can be stopped. Australia stopped them in 1996 after 35 died in Tasmania. We can stop mass shootings here, but the gun lobby is strong and and irrational. I am tired of jackasses having access to weapons of war.
""It has to do with the irony and hypocrisy of the folks on this forum""
That decision of gun control was made the instant the Left media learned of this shooting. The first 2 opinions I read this morning in reference to the shooting were from Obama and Hillary Clinton. The opinions here are normal reaction to the tragedy. No hypocrisy on the CF. You're mistaken.
""Unlike you apparently, nothing having to do with this situation brightens my day. The fact that an idiot was fired will not bring one of these lives back, or prevent another from being taken in the future.""
Maxine, you're so quick to condemn the CF, you didn't notice the Left immediately going for the gun control issue before the victims of the shooting are identified. I'm not happy about this situation and it's childish of you to suggest otherwise. In short you're a liar and wrong.
Gun control will not stop evil when it comes in the form of a lone wolf killer .... if firearms cant be used, a Tanker loaded with fuel will be or a nut case with a machete ..... this was not the fault of firearms, it was the fault of a deranged human..... if a person wants to kill many, they will find a way .... already the left has forgotten about the 84 killed by a truck in France ..see link
Clearly, gun control will solve nothing but to empower the leftists AND the criminals.
K-Cumm, now why don't you wonder over to the other thread addressing gun control (Like clockwork) and puke your self-righteous blither blather there too. Take Irish with you by the hand if you're scared to go alone.
"Maxine, you're so quick to condemn the CF, you didn't notice the Left immediately going for the gun control issue before the victims of the shooting are identified. I'm not happy about this situation and it's childish of you to suggest otherwise. In short you're a liar and wrong."
Your comprehension skills are atrocious.
1. I didn't condemn the CF. I said it was shameful that anyone would politicize this tragedy, literally before much of anything is known or the bodies of the victims are cold. As is evidenced by the posts on this thread, not everyone chose to do that.
2. It was you (as usual), and a couple others that started the juvenile name calling, and it was you that made reference to a news article suggesting it would brighten my day. Apparently you found some joy in the fact that some leftist nutcase got fired. I find no joy in that. I am sickened by it.
3. Not only do you not know what the word "liar" means, your comprehension skills are pathetic.
4. As is often the case, the same people, apparently in an attempt to be first, can't help but rush here and post bogus information. You'd think they would learn, but they never do.
Guys, my heart is broken by these events , can't imagine the wickedness and evil that did this . Have been watching FOX , but can't explain how someone could do this with any AR Platform, looking at the range , 32 stories high ,400 yards , and number of hits , can't be done .
May God have mercy on them all, but this will pass as did Columbine and Sandy Hook that gutted the lives and souls of parents who lost their children, agony unparalleled. The culprits are many for these tragedies. We just refuse to look into the mirror to discover who they are and they are us, who propagate Hollywood violence, Pharmaceuticals, and liberal socialists propaganda and agenda's to name a few. To abolish firearms easily washes the blood off the hands of mankind at night for these horrendous acts, but the stains remain to convict them by day. Absolution however knows the deeper truth and will never be his friend. Another sad day for this nation we call America and I do hurt for them, but, my smart phone really needs charging.....Easy huh?
yea, people were packed in like sardines, elbow to elbow, asshole to bellybutton, no place to hide....Ive heard between 22-30,000 people there... the shooter had multiple firearms he rigged up to shoot full auto... a 5.56/ or a 7.62 can easily put out hundreds of rounds per minute with full auto configuration and the 400+ yds was well within the range of both... he switched out magazines, and he switched out firearms.... he had over 7 minutes of time to do the deed .... even if he didnt have these firearms, he was so hell bent on causing mayhem, he would have found another way to cause destruction and death ....maybe flown one of his planes into a crowd like that (he owned two) or used a Semi Truck.... a person bent on doing what he did could not have been stopped because no on knew his mindset and his determination. he was the Lone Wolf that no security can stop.....as said, it wasnt the firearms fault, it was the devil inside this clown ..
Anybody that has fired automatic, handheld weapons knows the lack of accuracy when firing fully auto. This guy has been planning this a while. He had practiced doing this. I don't know the distance but if he was 400 yards from the people, to be able to hit a Mack truck with continuous fully automatic fire, takes something besides just marksmanship.
IBuild - even an average rifle should shoot 2 MOA accuracy, meaning for every 100 yards a 2" group. At 400 yards the rifle can be shooting pumpkins. A well made rifle twice as accurate, and the guy was a millionaire. Its not an exceptional distance and like JTV said there were many thousands of people packed together in a tight group. One clip sounded like a full auto weapon shooting roughly 600 rounds per minute. So call it a 100 round drum in as little as 10 seconds. (*quick math until better details come out, auto fire reduces accuracy , etc.)
IBuild, You can put every round into a semi at 400 yds with a .223 on full auto no problem. Three shot bursts, you are on a 2x4' steel plate. Singles on a pie plate no problem. .223 range is around 650yds give or take. Coulda been a .308 or 7.62 too. I sure we'll have the numbers for all of the ammosexuals soon enough. It sounded like 7.62 to me.
My comprehension is fine Maxine. It's your character that is atrocious. Yes you're a liar until you prove me wrong. Which I doubt you can.
"K-Cumm" is showing his creepy side once again. He's to stupid to realize the link I showed him was a LIBERAL MORON shooting her filthy mouth off about todays shooting. But it's the CF regulars who are evil. His comprehension is elementary at best.
iBuild - as boot camp Marines we shot AR style rifles at 500 yards on people sized targets, with Iron Sights. No scopes back then (which this guy had the advantage of) and he was shooting into a huge crowd of helpless people who never saw it coming. What is your point.... are you suggesting some weird Jesse Ventura style conspiracy????
Many people are pushing for the United States to model it’s gun policy after Australia with extremely strict gun control as well as gun confiscation. They point to Australia having “no mass shootings” since 1996 when these laws were enacted.
I would like to tell you how the media, gun control advocates and liberals are again wrong with this agenda, as well as explain to you a bit more about the Australia phenomenon. First, regardless of what the media and liberals tell you, mass shootings have occurred in Australia. Let’s look at just the last 3 years.
In 2011, there was a mass shooting in Hectorville. In 2014, one in Hunt, and again in 2014 one in Wedderburn (which was a 4 hour siege of a neighborhood).
“But wait, that’s only 3 since 2011! We’ve had 29 in America alone in that same time period!”
This is also a bit of trickery with numbers and comparing statistics. Yes, there have been 29 in America since 2011, and I do not dispute that. But let’s dig deep into numbers- Australia only has 23 million people living in it (with a large amount of those very spread out). But let’s just stick to quantity and not density. The United States has nearly 14 times as many people, at nearly 320 million. So if you compare apples to apples, if Australia had as many people as the United States and the ratio of mass killings to total populace remained the same, Australia would have 42 mass killings compared to 29 in the United States. That is 13 more!
Finally, if someone really wants to kill someone, they will find a way. Let’s look at the recent Cairns child killings in Australia where someone killed 8 children with a knife. Or the Quaker Hill Nursing home arson in Australia that killed 11 by fire. Or the Lin killings, also in Australia, that killed 5 with a hammer.
The facts are this: gun control doesn’t work, and pointing towards programs on other countries that are statistically manipulative does not solve the problem. Bad people will still find a way to get guns or kill by other methods. I would much rather people have the right to own a gun and give them the capacity to defend themselves than take away that right and leave them defenseless from those that will kill or harm regardless.
LHC, there is ZERO chance, you can take a stock, hand held, fully automatic 5.56 and hit a semi with it after the first or second round, at 400 yards. No one can. You are either lying or, have no earthly idea of what you say.
Guys/gals, maybe time to step back and take a deep breath. The fact is there are a lot of people who lost family members today. Mothers, fathers, brother, sisters. At least, can we all agree it's time to pray or meditate or do whatever you do, for these families. There's time for armchair quarterbacking and conspiracy theories later.
Shooting uphill or downhill has no different effect on gravity. You still zero for the straight line distance (not the hypotenuse angle you see as a straight line). So its a 400 yard shot calculation, 32 stories up or not. I realize its a bow site... but don't you shoot rifles at all, even for fun?
ibuild, here's my response to you. I've been around guns my entire life so I'm speaking from experience. You seem to be angling toward some kind of conspiracy, like there's no way he did this alone.
I disagree. The ranges, the angles, the fact he was shooting into a packed crowd. I've seen the videos and heard the sounds - it was definitely full auto at some points.
This was one guy, with plenty of resources and yes, you can fire into a crowd with that kind of weapon and do that damage. Respectfully, let's back off whatever you think might have happened and figure out the truth together.
I said the same many posts a go... yet he still continues .... smh
"yea, people were packed in like sardines, elbow to elbow, asshole to bellybutton, no place to hide....Ive heard between 22-30,000 people there... the shooter had multiple firearms he rigged up to shoot full auto... a 5.56/ or a 7.62 can easily put out hundreds of rounds per minute with full auto configuration and the 400+ yds was well within the range of both... he switched out magazines, and he switched out firearms.... he had over 7 minutes of time to do the deed .... even if he didnt have these firearms, he was so hell bent on causing mayhem, he would have found another way to cause destruction and death ....maybe flown one of his planes into a crowd like that (he owned two) or used a Semi Truck.... a person bent on doing what he did could not have been stopped because no on knew his mindset and his determination. he was the Lone Wolf that no security can stop.....as said, it wasnt the firearms fault, it was the devil inside this clown" ..
It's not rocket science ibuild. Fulldraw's picture shows it pretty plain as day. It doesn't require a whole lot of marksmanship to lay down hundreds of rounds in a target the size of a city block at 300-400 yards. Chris Kyle wasn't aiming at 22,000 people when he pulled the trigger. Reading reports that at least one of the rifles was bump fire just like I suspected. The cadence was too slow and choppy to be a full auto set-up. My guess is that he had quite a few set up like that and it was a matter of picking up another one when one went dry (latest reports are that he had 23 guns in his room). Definitely was using magazines with greater than 30 round capacity as well. My guess is that he had quite a few rifles equipped with sixty round drums as well as a handful of other 60 round drums at his disposal.
Actually, Fulldraw1972's picture wasn't taken from Mandalay Bay Resort. The shooter's room was roughly 90°'s to the right of that view, bringing the angle to the right of the main stage, rather than the left as the pic shows. Just sayin'.....
IBuild, your question has been answered a dozen times. Not sure what you fail to comprehend. Have you listened to any audio of the event? The guy was firing at essentially a full auto-rate for something like 15 minutes into a group of 20,000+ people packed together like sardines. Again, doesn't take a whole lot of marksmanship at all to get hits at 300-400 yards in that scenario. This is more equivalent to shooting fish in a barrel or hitting the roadside of the barn than it is pulling off some kind of crazy sniper shot. He was not picking off individual people. You clearly lack a situational understanding of what actually happened and your understanding of ballistics and marksmanship can use some help as well.
I'm guess FMJ ammo as well. Depending, one bullet could go through 2 or 3 people the way they were stacked in there. Ricochet and deflections deadly as well. With the people packed in as they likely were, the majority of hits were going to be upper body or even head wounds.
Somebody has is stuck in their head he was accurately aiming at individual people. He was just dumping a huge amount of ammo into a jam packed crowd.
Thoughts and prayers for the innocent victims of an evil person.
I'm with WV Mountaineer on this one. What is the mystery? Shooting was supernatural? Bullets curved around a building? The angle was crazy high at ....18%? 400 yards is like a mile? What is your question beyond 32nd floor and 400 yards? I shoot higher angle shots at my 3D range.
Parameters for the design of the 5.56 from CONARC (Army Command) That is if what the majority was, 5.56 and not 7.62 that is far more powerful, considered a 1000+ meter gun.
Bullet exceeding supersonic speed at 500 yards
Rifle weight of 6 lb
Magazine capacity of 20 rounds
Select fire for both semi-automatic and fully automatic use
Penetration of US steel helmet through one side at 500 yards
Penetration of .135-inch steel plate at 500 yards
Accuracy and ballistics equal to M2 ball ammunition (.30-06 Garand)
Wounding ability equal to M1 Carbine 
It is considered lethal (by the military) out to 500 and 600 meters (depending on rifle and ammo) It finally drops off to the energy of a .22 LR at roughly 1300 meters is what I read. But I'm told a .22 LR will just barely kill you.
Want to really know the ballistics of these weapons..... goggle is your friend.
Stand out at 400 yards and lets see if you can catch em in your baseball mitt......
Hitting a target at 400 yds with an AR-15 that happens to be 22,000 people and is probably several hundred yards squared would be a super easy shot. You could probably do that and not even aim, just sort of point and shoot. It wasn't like he was singling people out at 400 yds, which you'd have to be a pretty good shot have good optics and full auto wouldn't help at all. I can hit milk jugs at 300 yds with my POS AR-15 and a 1x red dot. I can probably do it in 2 out of 10 shots and the other 8 are pretty close and I'm not even a good shot. I shot a 3'x3' steel plate with my buddy's 6.5 Creedmore at 910 yds and it took me 2 shots to get "on" and then I could hit it 10 shots in a row no problem with good optics and a good round. With the right gear 400 is a chip shot.
Terrible news for all the victims who were killed or injured. I have no idea why someone would want to do this, but I guess that's why they call it mental illness. Tragic.
I build is STUCK ON STUPID and a troll, no doubt. It's noteworthy to see many of us agreeing on something for a change. Dummy! You could do serious damage to people throwing rocks down from that height alone. To the victims, my thoughts and prayers are with you. Mad Dog
I think iBuild is stuck on the '32 stories' part as if that was a big deal. 32 stories is about 150 yards. And 400 yards out and 150 yards up is only like 430 yards on the diagonal. Sheeesh. Why does he keep pressing for answers without a real question? Is he a nutjob looking for help to take a similar shot? Do we need to notify someone???
WW - "Imagine if someone in that crowd happened to have a .30 caliber scoped deer rifle on them and were able to see his muzzle flash............"
I was imagining this yesterday. I suspect that, if you pull out a rifle at an active shooting event, police on the ground are likely to shoot you or people around you will tackle you. If you are able to shoot, I suspect your groupings would be measured in yards instead of inches. I was at the range last week and was consistently within a 6" circle but the target wasn't shooting back at me, I wasn't shooting up at a 30 degree angle and it wasn't night. I would suspect the people in the rooms around this guy were at their windows trying to figure out what was happening.
There probably were people around who were carrying, it would be interesting to know if anyone shot back? How long did the shooting last?
Also, can the people who posted the name of an innocent man at the top of the thread erase him from your posts?
"Also, can the people who posted the name of an innocent man at the top of the thread erase him from your posts?"
You're right Amoebus.
When I posted the name I was trying to verify who the other poster was referring to. Upon further investigation, references to this person, as it pertains to this situation, appears to be more fake news.
Evil and tragedy in Las Vegas. Godspeed to the dead and, please God, mercy for all.
Then incredible stupidity on CF. Yes, I build, I mean you.
Anyone wanting to maximize the damage done would CHOOSE to shoot from just the position he chose. I agree that the rate of fire I heard sounded like bump-fire stocks, it was too fast for individual trigger pulls and too slow for full auto.
I carry an M4 for a living. This was fish in a barrel and I am also surprised that many more were not shot given the equipment and time he had.
I believe that the first name, Danley, was his girlfriend. The same one reportedly seen walking around the show with him 45 minutes before the shooting commenced telling people they were all going to die today.
IBuild - "Stored energy ., if you guys need data , I can back up, 32 STORIES, 400 YARDS , THE MATH DONT WORK?? "
I need data, please back up.
Are you arguing that there isn't enough ft-lbs of energy to kill a person? Are you arguing that the AR isn't accurate enough? Are you saying that he didn't shoot enough to kill/wound 600 people? Take a breath, form full sentences, postulate why you think it can't happen and then people can respond.
Spike - "Danley, was his girlfriend. The same one reportedly seen walking around the show with him 45 minutes before the shooting commenced telling people they were all going to die today"
From a variety of news source, it appears that she has been contacted and is in the Philippines:
"After sending out a request for her whereabouts, the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department said in a statement late on Monday night that "detectives have made contact with her and do not believe she is involved with the shooting on the strip."?
However, in an update on Tuesday morning, Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Sheriff Joe Lombardo said the gunman's female companion was still a "person of interest" and she would be interviewed when she returned to the US. Ms Danley was reportedly in the Philippines at the time of the shooting."
"The same one reportedly seen walking around the show with him 45 minutes before the shooting commenced telling people they were all going to die today."
I heard that differently spike. I heard that it was a latino couple that were at the seats right in front of the stage and were asked to leave by the ushers. That was yesterday morning but then I heard nothing about it after that. A false story or maybe more to it and they're not saying anything to avoid screwing up the investigation?
"I heard that differently spike. I heard that it was a latino couple that were at the seats right in front of the stage and were asked to leave by the ushers. That was yesterday morning but then I heard nothing about it after that. A false story or maybe more to it and they're not saying anything to avoid screwing up the investigation? "
Apparently just more fake news WW. If Ms. Danley was walking around telling people they were all going to die, it must have been via Skype.
One interesting thing about this girlfriend of the shooter, is that among the facebook photos shared there is one of her on the beach with a fancy building in the background. And architecture buffs might recognize this building is in Dubai. A verifiable mid-east visit. Unknown if Paddock was with her, but that is certainly likely given his wealth. Her Facebook stuff was posted on-line right away, while his info is still on lock down while they chase leads I guess. Definately more to this story.... deliberate and well planned.
It is early still and I did use the term "reportedly" because that was reported but not verified. As so often happens, the "facts" change as the days go by.
Also, upon further review, I did hear some shots which seemed fast enough to be full auto but still not up to the rate of speed of an AR platform weapon on full auto. Perhaps another weapon system.
I question the need for two platforms in two different windows. The difference in field of fire from 20 or 30 feet away in a two room suite on the end of that building to the targets about 500 yards away is negligable at best but does fertilize any claims of two shooters in that room. As Anony points out there are already reports of shooter(s) on the fourth floor as well.
Who really knows anything. We are likely to NEVER know the whole truth as long as someone needs to make political points with this or any issue. This one is highly ripe as agenda fodder for the globalists and others.
Then you, sir, are acting like a "2 yr old throwing a tantrum in church because he didn't get his way." Your priorities are totally messed up. Take a chill pill and a few days off. The people impacted by this tragedy deserve better.
I'm sure it was kaos but I'm surprised it took over an hour to locate the shooter. Seems like a facility guy from the hotel could have helped SWAT figure out what room from the outside pretty quickly. Not judging as I'm sure they were working hard to end it, just wasn't expecting that it was that long.
Spike, any idea if a modified AR will fire as fast as an M4 on full auto??? That is what I was thinking as a possibility. From spending time looking to build my own AR, I know there were parts out there, like the bolt and spring, that were labeled as "full auto compatible". I'm thinking a weaker return spring might cause a modified AR not to fire as fast at full auto. IDK.... Just something I have been rolling around in my head. I just know from the videos I've watched, it was to fast and consistent for semi-auto and too consistently spaced for a bump stock unless he had practiced a lot! I haven't shot a bump stock but my son has and he says there is definitely a trick to it to get it to work consistently.
No idea 5555. I suppose it matters who did what and how well with what modification. It is possible in some cases to buy and install full auto parts but it warrants a federal thirty year sentence just for possession of such a modified weapon.
Bump stocks are a completely different animal. very simple, no modification of the mechanics of the weapon at all. Bump firing can be done on an as manufactured AR 15 without even the bump stock if one knows how.
JTV, it's one thing for Sleepy to act like a fool, but it's quite another for you to be his pom-pom waving cheerleader. This is not the time nor the place for your petty crap.
BK, too bad you chose to, support an idiot like Maxine. Maybe you should step, back and re think your decision. KPC IS A TROLL who has disrespected several quality people here on this forum who I have respect. I don't mind people getting angry with me on the CF, that will enable others I respect to post here in peace and not get attacked for it. Bring it.
I agree with Hunting5555. I'd also think it would take an awful lot of practice to achieve such a regulated firing pattern using a bump stock. I've never used one, but the recent headlines are stating he used bump stock(s) to rapid fire his way into hell.
ooops....did I interrupt an argument here? heh heh heeyah... ;^)
YouTube has plenty of videos showing these slide fire stocks in bump action. Gives you a sense of their rate of fire. The .223's still sounds faster than some of the video clips from Vegas. However, the AR10 bumping might match up better to the sound.
Prior to the slide fire, there were the old Hell-fire trigger gimmicks, and their clones. I never understood trying to find that certain point where it 'bumps' and threw all that crap in the trash. Would rather get proper cheek weld and sight alignment.
And like Spike said, even a stock gun with a light trigger might double or triple on occasion if the hold in your shoulder hits that groove.
"BK, too bad you chose to, support an idiot like Maxine. Maybe you should step, back and re think your decision. KPC IS A TROLL who has disrespected several quality people here on this forum who I have respect. I don't mind people getting angry with me on the CF, that will enable others I respect to post here in peace and not get attacked for it. Bring it."
You're confusing pity with anger sleepy.
At the end of the day, if you and your friends keep posting unsupportable crap, I'll keep pointing it out...with facts. If that's what you consider a "troll," so be it.
• $3.7MM has been donated so far, 53,000 separate donations
• Reno property investigation is complete. They found a few more guns and electronics
• Again, he had rifles assembled with bump stocks
• Expect info from Marilou shortly
• Don't have/won't tell what the motive is. Said look at around 48 hours for that.
• Injury number has decreased by 20 because of double counting some injuries
• They're in conversations with Marilou who is in the Philippines
• Police are troubled by how the pictures of the hotel room got leaked
• Cameras confirmed inside and outside of hotel room
• Shooter fired for 9 minutes starting at 10:08
• Victims were shot outside of the venue.
• Room service was provided. Idk if that means it was used.
• They're very sure that they'll find a motive.
• They have 67 body cams from officers that they are evaluating. 90% done with that.
• Camera outside the room was on a service cart
• FBI looking into how Paddock got "radicalized"
• ATF is investigating the weapons, type and styles.
• There are injuries that are from trampling and escaping and gunshot wounds.
• FBI has possession of all of the digital media.
• Sheriff alludes to potential future prosecution of other individuals and also interestingly makes reference to figuring out how the suspect got "radicalized". Interesting use of terminology...ANTI-FA literature [n his hotel room.
• The first officer on the 32nd floor was there in about 10 minutes. He encountered the injured security guard."
During a live press conference, Clark County Sheriff Joe Lombardo revealed that the Las Vegas gunman, Stephen Paddock, may have been “radicalized” and that authorities were attempting to uncover the source of his radicalization. “Did this person get radicalized unbeknownst to us? And we want to identify that source,” said Lombardo. .......If confirmed, this suggests that there may have been a political motive behind the massacre and why he went after conservatives/Christians.
Have a feeling the info will come out as to why...... things like this don't just happen and the people that commit them pretty much all the time want everyone to know why...... they are just connecting the dots right now.
FREEloader. "These guy's here just like to argue." You forgot to mention to IBuild, the reason YOU come on here, just to, STIR THE $HIT, and then run away. But you dems can't tell the truth, never could.
Nooooooo, this is actually going to be great. More than anything else ever, I want to see iBuild try to shape his inexplicable concern into an actual question, and then see Freeglee to try and answer it -!!! Clear the floor fellas... forget the never ending pro-KPC/anti-KPC drama. This is really much more important. Which troll will prevail in the battle of incomprehensible nonsense. iBuild had the ball and is serving to Freeglee....
Photos were released yesterday of two rifles found on the floor of Stephen Paddock’s 32nd floor Mandalay Bay hotel room. One of which was equipped with a bump fire stock which simulates full-auto fire. Now the ATF has confirmed that among the 23 guns found in the room, a dozen of them had been fitted with bump fire stocks.
Federal officials say the Las Vegas shooter had devices attached to 12 weapons that allow semiautomatic rifles to mimic fully automatic gunfire.
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Special Agent in Charge Jill Schneider also told reporters Tuesday that Stephen Paddock had nearly 50 guns in three locations.
She said he had a combination of rifles, shotguns and pistols.
Ammonium nitrate found in Paddock's car. Same materials used to make the Oklahoma bomb. Obviously, he had made alternate plans to kill as many people as possible.
Antifa literature in his hotel room?
Obviously, an intent to slaughter people is not dependent upon the weapon chosen, but the desire to do so. No law can and ever will prevent someone like Pollack from these sorts of actions.
Three theories I see as possible - (1) he was ISIS, as ISIS claims. There are photos from Dubai, and money sent to the Philippines which has an ISIS presence. Least likely in my opinion. (2) He is an angry old trump-hating white guy in the Antifa style, and attacked a likely group of trump supporters at a country music event. Think similar to the liberal kook that attacked republicans playing softball with semi-auto rifles. (3) He is a psychopath similar to his dad from the FBI most wanted list, and when he mentally snapped, he just went for the all time killing record to go out with some history making event.
Some effort went into planning for quantity and no obvious message attached to his actions that we see. So I would lean to option 3 at the moment, unless the 'message' he sent is just being held back by investigators to reduce its impact. In which case we are back at option 2.
Some? It was a LOT more than that! I know all were doing is guessing at this point, but I wouldn't be shocked to learn that more people are involved. I mean he's left NO tracks whatsoever. That's just weird. I do agree that if it is the other things you mentioned that they would hold it back before they release it.
But let's for a moment take it at it's face value...that he was just a very wealthy person who arranged, planned and erased all his footprints on his own and was able to wreak the kind of carange he did because he knew he was not going to survive it. Now THIS is so scary that it's almost beyond words. What if he had a suitcase nuke/dirty bomb? And was flying one of the planes he was legally licensed to operate? He literally could take out a major city!
I'll add a conspiracy: Dubai collection agents(Issis) have been following this guy because of his debt accrued in Dubai. The collection agents for the casino found that he was prescribed Valium. Kidnapped him, brainwashed and programmed him to commit murder upon peoples in Las Vegas so as to get people to go to their casinos that are not in the USA.
Take enough Valium and your world will change. Coming off of Valium a side effect is anger at the world. Add a post hypnotic suggestion when you have no moral compass... kapow..... dead people.
OR.... his GF was held at ransom, 100k and to put said guns in hotel room. Murdered, Issis does the deed and he gets blamed.... neat and tidy... Issis claims right to the dirty deed, but gets ignored due to the fact that it doesn't fit this guys daily profile.
Here is a small fact I heard today from a threat assessment group.... ISIS has been 100% correct every time they have claimed an attack was at their direction. Even when authorities dismissed the initial claim, ultimately the facts came out that ISIS was behind it.... Insiders are saying that evidence is starting to point in that direction in this case as well, but no one is saying definitely yet.
Insiders are also saying that there is evidence that he had a support group in planning and arranging this. Some of them suspect the girlfriend was his "handler".
Police were already on high alert because of muslim communications telling muslims to stay away from large public venues for the next several weeks.
Just repeating what I heard from the guys I listen to who claim to have contacts in the FBI and LVMPD. So don't slam the messenger, just repeating what they said on their show, and they have a pretty good track record in the past on things like this.
I can recall 2 former acquaintances from long ago who committed suicide after being on valium for a while. They took more than they should've when they had them, though. Come to think of it, they were ready to kill others when on them, and wanted to kill themselves when they were out of them. Saw one of them swallow a freekin' handful of the blue 10mg'ers once. I was surprised he lived from that dose, but he did. That stuff should be banned, IMO....
Rhody:OR.... his GF was held at ransom, 100k and to put said guns in hotel room. Murdered, Issis does the deed and he gets blamed.... neat and tidy... Issis claims right to the dirty deed, but gets ignored due to the fact that it doesn't fit this guys
Bingo. I told my wife and daughter yesterday that this could be a very distinct possibility. It makes sense.
I don't have a real fact yet but, I'm leaning to the Islamic "radicalized" theory more every time I research this. Seems there are lots of theories but, with the sheriff stating radicalized yesterday, I think its headed there. We will see. God Bless men
Trump said today, dont be surprised as more info comes out or something along that line ... I think the FBI/Cops know way more that what is being said right now and just want everything in a row before breaking the news .... a reporter on Fox said today, what a blow it would be if a white 64 year old American guy was recruited by ISIS ....
"OR.... his GF was held at ransom, 100k and to put said guns in hotel room. Murdered, Issis does the deed and he gets blamed.... neat and tidy... Issis claims right to the dirty deed, but gets ignored due to the fact that it doesn't fit this guys Bingo. I told my wife and daughter yesterday that this could be a very distinct possibility. It makes sense."
I know...I know. We ALL know. You want to debate kinetics on a globbillion 400 yard shots with the added advantages of a 150+ yard elevated shooting platform, using devastating high speed loads from small & high caliber ammo mixed together.
You lose that argument. What do we gotta do to convince you. Shootcha? :^p
Apply Occams Razor. If you read the Sheriff’s comments the hotel security guard was shot in the leg through the door by the shitbag. The door was barricaded from the inside . So that eliminates more than one shooter from that location. Zero credible reports of other shooters from other locations. It’s not hard to triangulate the location of the shots from the point if impact. So the simplest answer is usually the right answer . He was the lone shooter. He had 1600 rounds it’s not hard to imagine hitting 500 people out if a tightly packed crowd of 22000 just spraying the area with fire. He made have had help up to that point as the sheriff has speculated. The mystery woman and man going through the crowd yelling everyone is going to die lends credibility to the Sheriff’s comments. The woman and man were reported to have been Hispanic looking. We used to bait coyotes with deer carcasses and spray them with 60 round clips at 100 + yards with .223 from a hayloft . It’s not as hard as it sounds
My wife and I were in Vegas in the spring and stayed near there at the Monte Carlo....... Horrific........... I don't know what else to say. Thank you Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department...... IBuild I have know idea what you are trying to say....... that the man who did this horrible act didn't do it ?? WTF are you saying ??
It was a concert with people packed together. He sprayed bullets into the crowd for 9 or 10 minutes. Even without a bump fire device attached, he could have fired thousands of rounds. About 10% of those hit died, which is consistent with random hits.
A SEAL team has 96 people but you probably meant a SEAL platoon which has 16. 16 shooters with evil intent and that level of training would have resulted in hundreds more deaths.
Ok , what has been said about me , I am a troll , are spam , not sure , I can not form complete sentences but ??? Guys , a 64 year old man dealt more hurt and mayhem than a very trained special force team could have , see your responses , ok ?
Curious ibuild, when was the last time a special forces team took on a force of 22,000 unarmed (and unarmored) enemy fighters packed shoulder to shoulder in the wide open at a distance of only 400 yards? You're comparing apples and oranges. But if you don't get it by now from the responses above you clearly never will.
Damn, this dude is friggin' dense .... let me ask you a question... do you think the Twin Towers were brought down by the planes and the aviation fuel which started fires, which weakened the structure, or was it done by henchmen of Bush and controlled demolition so he'd have a reason to go to war .... honest question ..
It sounds like he had 20 or 30 guns up in there..... Sure it could be done. IT WAS DONE..... He probably had them stacked up next to him and shot each one dry before he even had to do a magazine change..... How hard is this to grasp ??? You're out there dude......
Thousands of rounds what?? The rate of fire of a slide stock equipped gun is in the neighborhood of 500 rounds a minute. Dumping a 60 round mag would take somewhere on the order of 10 seconds. Reload another one in 10 seconds and away you go. It would take less than 20 magazines to fire 1200 rounds. Again, 10 seconds per magazine change, 10 seconds for a mag dump, you could easily get off 1000 rounds in around 5 minutes. Given the amount of firearms he had on hand there was a good chance he didn't even have to reload, but rather pick up another gun already loaded and get back to firing. In 15 minutes it would be no problem to get off a few thousand rounds. Not sure what is so physically hard for you to comprehend about this. I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever fired an AR style gun? This is really not hard at all to piece together.
And he really didn't shoot the security guard in the leg through the door..... and he really didn't set off the fire alarm in his suite from all the shooting..... and the body cam video of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police storming his room and finding him dead by suicide never happened....... Dude you are freaking nuts.
Really I should go to sleep, Headline News.... 64 year old man fires thousands of shots , kills 50 + wounds many more at a range of more than 400 yards, he had many weapons , some equipped with the deadly "Bump Fire " stocks.
Really I should go to sleep, Headline News.... 64 year old man fires thousands of shots , kills 50 + wounds many more at a range of more than 400 yards, he had many weapons , some equipped with the deadly "Bump Fire " stocks.
Yes, exactly right. A 64 year old man fired over a thousand shots in 10 minutes at a crowd and killed 50+ and wounds many more at 400 yards. That is exactly what happened, and you can't seem to say what is so impossible about that. Distance works. Number of weapons works. Only two windows broken in hotel, and his room barricaded with him inside. Bump fire stocks for rate of fire. It all makes sense based on what we KNOW these guns can do based on owning them and shooting them ourselves. Yeah, the education system must be to blame because you both can't grasp this AND you can't explain to anyone why....
I didn't see any 100rd drums in the photos, but looked like some Surefire brand hi-caps holding either 40 or 60 rounds each. Did you know the Virginia Tech shooter fired over 200 rounds... from "PISTOLS with 10 round mags" in less time? Look up the Lee Enfield mad-minute and see how fast a guy can shoot a bolt action rifle with stripper clips accurately and hit a target at distance... its physically possible to score 36 hits on a 48 inch target at 300 yards in ONE minute!! These things CAN be done because they HAVE been done Sheeesh.
Moreover, we have numerous video/audio that allows us to hear one round of shots, a pause, then another round, repeat. In your scenario, why would two or more shooters coordinate to make it sound exactly like one shooter?
News from last night reported that some of the 500 injured were shot and some hurt in the mad rush to get out. No breakdown of how many in each group.
Ibuild - all your arguments so far fall into an 'Argument from Incredulity' (see link) which, while often used on bowsite, are invalid.
From the link:
"The fallacy lies in the unstated premise. If a state of affairs is impossible to imagine, it doesn't follow that it is false; it may only mean that imagination is limited."
Who is this dumbass named Ibuild, and what is his point? Ray Charles could have shot into that crowd and killed dozens from that distance. Does this idiot think Paddock was taking individual aim at his targets, for crying out loud?
What is a blessing, or miracle I guess, is that not more were wounded or killed. With the spray of fire and confinement of area, every bullet should have hit somebody, even the ricochets that hit the ground at that angle.
The only thing to have prevented 100% impact is adjusting the line of fire initillay to get the "holdover" right.
Though it's difficult to ascertain, I'm suspecting that one of IBuild's convoluted, nonsensical points is that a sixty four year old would be incapable of physically shooting those types of weapons for a sustained period. That it would be too taxing. Which I find ridiculous. I've fired an M16 courtesy of my LEO hunting partner. It doesn't require much effort.
I have an older friend who I've hunted elk with. Tough as decades old jerky. He'd physically be capable of shooting for hours. He hiked all over the mountains of WY with a hip replacement that had come loose in his femur. Never whined once.
He and I watched his daughter's mother-in-law take a 300 yard off-hand shot on a mule deer and "ten ring" it. The deer ran. She racked the bolt and took a 300 yard off-hand shot on that running deer and hit it within two inches of the original shot. Not my preferred kind of hunting, but impressive marksmanship.
I think that something's up because so little information is being released. If it were simply that he degenerated into madness exacerbated by meds or had a brain tumor or burned through his money, I think the authorities would reveal that. I don't think there's any conspiracy,
I don't see anything "skillful" about trolling. Pathetic, yes. Skillful, not so much.
And why would you troll the CF, anyway? It's not like he's reaching thousands of readers, here. There are maybe 2 dozen regular posters on the CF. This idiot could probably reach more people by yelling out his mother's basement window.
Back to the topic, has anyone heard or read anything viable about Paddock's possible motives for his evil behavior?
However, I used "skillful" in terms of what his particular goal is, and whether or not he is effective in achieving it. As is evidenced by the responses, both in quantity and voracity, he is obviously succeeding.
As to him being "pathetic," while I would tend to agree, that only exacerbates the "dumb" factor of those that keep responding to him, does it not?
As to him being "pathetic," while I would tend to agree, that only exacerbates the "dumb" factor of those that keep responding to him, does it not?
Absolutely. Notice I made no comments about the responders. ;-)
I've scratched my head for years over why people respond to trolls. And it's always the same people, too, for the most part. It reminds me of the class clown in grade school. He never was all that funny, and most of us wished he'd just shut up. But inevitably a few kids would laugh at his idiotic remarks, thereby reinforcing his behavior.
"Ok quess I have not been clear , a trained SEAL team could not have done what was done in Las Vegas, please someone explain what I am missing ."
IQ, maybe someone can email you some.
I think you're just trying to derail the thread because the shooter was an angry resist Ok quess I have not been clear , a trained SEAL team could not have done what was done in Las Vegas, please someone explain what I am missing .
iBuild doubts this stuff only because a natural food guru told him to think that. And he doesn't appear to have the capacity for independent or logical thought. That is important in the general context of what we discuss here, because these same people would be misled on gun control, health care, the national debt, and other CNN taking points like Trump/Russia. Bear in mind that iBuild is not even the dumbest guy out there.... he has a computer and found his way to the internet, surpassing some 13% of the entire US adult population. Ooofa.
While I know Ibuild is wrong concerning the ability factor. Something's still remain uncertain. And considering them doesn't make you a conspiracy nut.
One does have to wander about the timing. Is it totally random that this type of shooting happens when congress was set to pass into Law, making suppressors legal? Is it random that sheer minutes after the shooting, ISIS claims responsibility? Is it shear random actions that allowed this single man the ability to move 23 weapons and ammo into his room in such a short period? Is it shear random that housekeeping didn't notice such things while doing their duty? The bell hops and members of the 200 strong security team employed by The hotel? Is it expected to be random that the only weapon that has been reported as definitely being used, is a bump stocked AR? During the political climate we have surrounding these type guns, when it's apparent the suppressor law was going to pass. Is it shear random that the political Opponents of Trump that have been and, currently still are speaking out, have been the closet clowns of the Democratic Party? I mean who takes these idiots seriously? No one until they have a reason to.
I could go on. While I remain open minded about this, I'm not about to suggest one single thing that led to this was just a guy that " lost it". People who loose it don't plan the way he did. People who loose it don't come so prepared. And, had this guy actually been a well trained gun handler, who was totally bent on getting it right, he'd chosen a much better weapon for doing so. It doesn't take much to turn the stock AR into a mid distance vialable weapon. But, his were show wearing red dot scopes? For 400 yard shooting?
What's clear to me is this guy had zero training, was a political puppet of the left, had funds, and the perfect personality to blame this on. If his intent was to just kill, he would have known how to be much more effective. Am I right? I don't know. But, it's as legitimate as anything. Especially he just "lost it".
When staying at the Las Vegas Hilton years ago, which prohibited dogs, I brought my Kerry blue terrier in through a side door, and took her out when necessary. I think I was on the 10th floor or something. In many hotels, your door key allows you to enter via an alternate door closer to your room. Since an AR can be broken down into upper and lower, we also don't know if he smuggled the items in regular luggage. Ammo would also fit in separate luggage. 1000 rounds of 5.56 weighs about 28 lbs, so 1600 would be 45 lbs or so with the bag. 12 rifles at 10 lbs each, 120 lbs. I'm 61, for me that would be at most two trips. I know Nvagvup could do that at 68 without even breathing heavy. Others could as well.
Shooting at a gaggle of people at an exit at 400 yds requires little marksmanship, particularly if you're shooting from a rest as he was. And an AR, or a full auto 5.56, recoils minimally.
ISIS claims responsibility quickly, and easily. News travels immediately now. In 1989, we had a shooting at a Denver plant. 2 hours later, I got a call from a friend in Kentucky, at a sister plant, asking about it. In the internet days, it's even faster.
There are still plenty of unanswered questions. Yes, I suspect, as the Sheriff has stated, that he had help. And it would not surprise me to find out that they know why, but don't want to say so while they try to find the "helpers." Having dealt with dozens of high profile law enforcement investigations, it's common for the early information to be very incomplete, either waiting for confirmation or because disclosure would telegraph to the suspects that they were aware of them. In a few days, or weeks, this should be much better defined.
My guess is Ibuild is one of the far right false flag nutters. They spin everything to a CIA op and govt cover up. The claims vary from its a big psyop to the govt hiring 1000 actors to act out a fake attack. The left does the same thing but they are not as creative and just blame the Russians. This country is such a mess that majority of the population is on pharmaceuticals of some sort . The nutters even say that is a form of govt. mind control.
Bad karma, I agree with what you say. But, he was in the hotel for three days. Even deer hunting, I require good, Wayer, and decently clean clothes more often than that. So, his luggage weighed more than 120 pounds I'm guessing. An AR does break down easily enough. And the type shooting he did, didn't require extensive ability. But, if he whacked out and just wanted to kill people randomly, he failed miserably. Which proves his lack of training or, something else was driving his choices. Who knows at this point? About the only thing I'll disagree with you on is how accurate a fully automatic, handheld weapon is. Because they aren't. Shooting st 400 yards isn't suppressing fire when it blankets the distances a fully auto group would cover. And, it surely isn't accurate.
I am suspicious of several things so far but I am also withholding any judgements until I feel we have all the pertinent facts. (Probably never.)
A red dot may not a bad choice when you are aiming at a mass of people who may be covering an acre or two of ground. (Or more.) Remember that this was not like hunting or target shooting, he was not necessarily aiming at any particular person. Lead anywhere in the area could be deadly to someone.
There is no reason to suspect that he only made two or three trips. He may well have made two or three trips a day for three days.
No one is jumping to any conclusions. Only looking for reasons. We may never know the reasons but, being open minded to ALL possibilities until given reasons not to be is the proper approach. And, the only way to do that is to individually questions each possibility.
Spike, at that distance, in the night, with little to no magnification, a red dot scope would offer zero benefit. Open sights would have been much more effective in those circumstances.
I doubt Paddock was even aiming in the tradition sense. He was probably just pointing and squeezing the trigger, like a squirt gun. So the type of sights is kinda irrelevant.
I keep thinking about his gambling addiction, and wondering what part that played in all of this. He may have owed big money to some mafia miscreants, and this was some sort of payoff. Or maybe he just flipped out under the pressure of huge debts. Who knows...
I think he is talking red laser sight. Typically possibilities that are based on some form of logical process will be looked at, not pie in the sky stuff (at least if any viable options exist). If you are looking at all possibilities, you might as well start trying to figure out if it was Trump's fault.
Ok guys I will admit I am wrong , it happened just like the News Media, Jimmy Kimmell , Nancy Pelosia said ,he had no help, he got all the needed supplies into his his Hotel Room and nobody noticed , he was highly trained , has been planning this for years, had like 30 weapons in his room , all equipped with the deadly , dare I say this the deadly "Bump Feed Stock" Sorry guys I was wrong .
Understand Wayne LaPierre and the NRA are denouncing the deadly " Bump Feed Stock "
Wish I could have got one before I do my annual Sheep Hunts, and Whitetail Hunts in West Texas ,it is totally unbeivable what can be done with these things, oh well guess I will stick with my old bolt and lever actions ,400 yard shots are tough , but ....
Sorry I was so wrong, I am very sorry if a offended anyone , please forgive me. Thanks guys for enlighting me.
You are a complete fake, I build, and fooling only yourself. The only way I would believe that you were ever an NRA member is if the NRA themselves sent me proof of that! The rest of what you say has no chance under any circumstances!
You may go now.
FTR, they are not "bump feed stocks", some call them bump FIRE stocks.
I carry an AR every day at work and I had no idea what a bump stock is...... never even heard of it before this..... but then I'm not really a gun nut kind of guy.... my gun cabinet contains shotguns and a few bolt action hunting rifles..... I googled some videos on bump stocks and all I can say is wow..... Sorry if I offend some of you gun enthusiasts..... but if fully automatic weapons are illegal..... i don't see much of a difference between full auto and a rifle equipped with a bump stock. And the only thing I can ever see a guy having one for is to shoot at the range and experience the feeling of a fully auto machine gun...... Go ahead... flame away.
IBuild, since most of your theories that involved anything technical have already been debunked...here's a summary of the other factors that you claim made it impossible for the shooter to do what he did (see link)
I'll agree that the primary purpose of a bump fire stock would be to play at the range. That being said, I have no idea how many bump fire stocks there are out there, and like most, I had no idea they were out there until this week. So, out of the vast universe of these devices, precisely one was used in a shooting. So, because of that one event, they should be banned? If we're going to think that way, there won't be much left in an allegedly "free society" after a few years, as trucks, vans, fertilizer, diesel fuel (sorry, Benz owners!) and a host of other things will be banned as well.
At this point, I'm going to propose banning high rise hotels as a solution to this problem. It makes just as much sense as any gun control measure I've heard since Sunday.
The bottom line is you have to draw the line somewhere..... or else you could argue that average Joe citizen should be able to own and stock shoulder launched missles....... If you agree that citizens shouldn't own fully auto machine guns..... Then take a look at videos of bump stock rifles being fired.... The rate of fire is comparable to a fully auto rifle..... only by a technicality is it legal..... because the bump device makes the trigger get pulled at an extremely high speed.
I'm not saying that banning anything would in any way prevent tragedies such as this...... All I'm saying is that I don't think a citizen should be allowed to own a fully automatic weapon...... or a shoulder launched RPG....... or bump devices for their ARs.....
See link ... these here are all law abiding people, I think they would argue FOR the ownership of full autos..... one of my old bosses had 60 full autos all workable, he collected them, we shot some of 'em, some were WWI and WWII era ..... the maniac in Vegas was the exception, and I dont want laws to change because of one dope....how about the person who killed 84 in France with a damn Truck ??....lets ban them while we are at it...
I've been doing some reading on the bump stocks. They aren't a complicated device. Someone with average fab skills could easily make one, even out of wood.
So banning them will do no good. The nut cases will simply build their own, or buy them thru the black market. Once again, criminals will be the only ones who have them. Then what? A ban on all semi-autos? And the slippery slope continues......
Here's a thought. How about we address the mental condition that causes some people to fall to this evil behavior. Educate people on the symptoms and other signs to look for. Encourage dialogue with local law enforcement when you're suspicious of someone. Create programs to educate workers in public businesses (ie: hotels, restaurants, theaters, etc...) on how to recognize and report suspicious behavior, and encourage them to do so. Make public venues safer, either by location or increased security.
Once again.... I don't think that what is legal and what is illegal for the average citizen to own has any impact on prevention of murder...... That being said I still believe there has to be somewhere where a line is drawn..... JTV..... if your gun enthusiasts in your video argued that they wanted it to be legal to own shoulder launched RPGs.... would you argue on their behalf...... heck ,,, They're just law abiding good old boys that want to play with RPGs at the range....... right..... how about mortars and mines..... heck how about nuclear weapons??? If you don't agree with making EVERYTHING LEGAL to own by average Joe citizens...... then you too have a line that you draw where you say..... well,,, OK...... maybe people shouldn't be able to have THOSE......
I personally have no problem with banning bump stocks as long as it isn't used as a foot in the door for something beyond. There really is no issue with them. If they had been banned it would have prevented nothing in this latest shooting. Like I said before, put them in cereal boxes or ban them. In the grand scheme of things, no diff.
We need better mental health assessment and treatment. We need better on sight security for any potential soft target in the private sector. Prepare for some rising costs as this security isn't free, but worth it. And I again believe that our media making soap opera and movie stars out of these sick killers is a major contributor. Gun control solves nothing. More effective and better targeted responsibility would solve much.
The way i read the Supreme Law of the Land, it codifies our inalienable right to own anything we can afford, including RPGs and even nukes. The fact that the government, OUR creature, can be more powerful than us is the expressway to global slavery.
EVERY and ANY infringement of our God-given rights is against the law.
There is no such thing as "reasonable" or "common sense" gun laws.
Allowing the banning of bump fires stocks is as big a mistake as allowing any anti-rights law.
Because we live in a society that is culturally dangerous any subjective interpretation of a person's mental condition will also be used as part of the slippery slope. There are many who would argue that because a person likes guns, or wants guns, they are mentally deficient and should not be allowed to have them. Others would surely argue that those who don't want to be a full member of the one-world-globalist-government are seditious in nature and should not be allowed any weapons!
The merits of this nation, brilliantly designed by our forefathers as a bastion of individual freedom, are inarguable. The cornerstone of this nation lies in the right and the duty of the individuals to control the government that we have created to protect our freedom!
As we allow the government to chip away at our civil rights and inalienable rights we set ourselves up for failure. It looks like slavery to whims of the elites who run the one-world-globalist-government.
Bet on that if you allow ANY infringement of our rights at all.
Bump fire sticks shohld not require anything but the money to purchase them, just like full auto weapons.
Do you feel adequate to take on the government enforcers right now? How will you feel when you let them take away more arms?
I get what you're saying Spike and appreciate the direction of your argument.
But when you ask..."Do you feel adequate to take on the government enforcers right now? How will you feel when you let them take away more arms? "
No matter what we may want to think none of us will ever be adequate to do that no matter what weapons we may have. If there God forbid ever was some kind of revolt it is factions of the military itself that would crumble away from the statists and lead us back to liberty. Without that happening I believe we're just whistling Dixie in the end.
At the time the founders were writing the 2nd clarifying that the government could not infringe on our rights, private citizens owned the most powerful weapons available. They also owned more than the government did and thats a good thing because private gunships were a big factor.
So they weren't considering nukes or bump-stocked ARs since they didn't exist, but they were protecting weapons capable of attacking the enemy around the world, capturing enemy ships and being on par with foreign nation's naval vessels.
The most defining point of the Amendments we have is it takes away the opinion factor.
Bump fired firearms are a joke. 90% of the people in this country that Shoot regularly, would have a hard time putting a decent volley of shots together. Much less hitting something while doing it.
These things are never going to end. They are likely going to increase. Due to the division the powers that be, ensure we the people conform too. Get used to and, arm yourself's. Things are going to get worse no matter what laws get passed.
"When the Founders were around, there was no television, no internet, and no social media. So, I guess we should do away with the first amendment, too? I always balk when modern folks want to substitute their wisdom for the Founding Fathers. They were smarter than any gathering of Harvard law grads."
So are you suggesting that there are no limits to constitutional rights and that they are absolute?
I think the founding fathers were smart enough to know that weaponry would continue to advance and get more destructive, especially military weapons . I think they also knew that the weapons needed for a "well regulated militia" were completely different from the "arms" necessary for personal protection. That distinction was never clearly defined, probably because the FFs knew it was a moving target that would always change.
I won't argue that there is no limit to the rights protected in the Constitution, but I will argue that the limits the Constitution placed on the government were well thought out and should be followed.
As long as a person isn't infringing on other's rights, I'm fine with them having their own fully armed F-22.
Spike nails it. Bump stocks will probably be banned, but it's not a fix. There are probably tens if not hundreds of thousands in circulation. What do you do about those? And what about banning rubber band bump fire? Or your thumb in your belt loop bump fire. Should belt loops and rubber bands be banned too?
So all of you guys are good with no limits whatsoever on what American citizens can own as far as weaponry......... be it fully automatic rifles..... hand grenades....... pipe bombs... RPGs....... land mines...... chemical weapons...... all the way up to nuclear weapons..... Just to clear the air..... you guys are all OK with anything and everything ????
Paddock was also a licensed pilot and owned TWO planes. Imagine if he chose one of the planes as his weapon, it would have made the 58 dead pale by comparison.
I don't even want to think about the scene if he dove that plane into the middle of that concert......with full fuel tanks and the tannerite on board.
Maybe we should ban civilan possession and use of aircraft too. And don't even get me started on drones! You don't have to be suicidal to attack with a drone. The worst is coming with them, believe me.
Sympathy yes.... of course.... that is a given........ how horrific of a tragedy.... But I think it is only human nature to ask how something so horrible happens on US soil.... and what can be done to prevent it. As far as what are the lines between American citizens and Law Enforcement.....?? Any American citizen carrying a fully automatic rifle or one with a bump stock has this Police Officer outgunned on any given day. We didn't even carry patrol rifles until after Columbine...... We only carried shotguns before that.
I am anti any gun control legislation and I don’t even own a gun.
Our 2A rights are yet again anthor reason our country is so great.
1st it’s bump stocks. Then it’s AR’s completely. Next we will have some nut job sitting in a bell tower shooting people with a bolt action rifle from a half mile plus away. Then it will be ban anything to do with them.
I hear you loud and clear. I understand what every lover of truth and liberty has posted here.
I'm usually so against any kind of gun law there is.
However, we all know and hopefully respect the firearms act of 1934 - banning full auto, suppressors, short barrelled weapons. Personally, even that did nothing, and fails to do anything. The thugs in Chicago and DC have access to every kind of gun used in war. Because they have money.
Do you think the drug thugs or Mexican cartel uses "bump stocks" to achieve full auto? Of course not.
Do you not see that giving up something as trivial and stupid as a bump stock could lend huge credibility to legal gun owners?
I see that being on-board with the notion of further infringing on law abiding citizen's rights as a fix only supports the idea that gun control is a solution to evil people doing evil things.
The list of what guns and accessories the gun control advocates want to ban is simple. All of them. Whenever one is banned, the rest move one notch higher on the list. Eventually the gun or the accessory I maybe thought would never be an issue will be at that #1 spot.
Their are two great reasons to not support more gun control:
1. It's simply wrong and goes against the foundation America was built on. Freedom and the ability of the citizenry to be able to defend themselves against outside forces or to stand up to and replace the government if needed is why the government was specifically limited in the Constitution.
2. Rights and Constitutionality aside, its the wrong solution for fixing the issue of evil or mentally unstable people harming others. Pretending it is a solution only takes away from any real things we can do as a society to chip away at this odd part of human nature that is mysterious and although rare, can be tragic.
I understand the whole argument about incrementalism, and for the most part I agree. Having said that, I see bump stocks as an invention that was specifically designed, and it's only use is to circumvent another law that has been on the books since 1934.
For those that insist that the second amendment is absolute, how would you feel about a person being in possession of chemical or biological weapons? Should that be legal? Like it or not, there are certain restrictions and sacrifices that need to be made in order to live in a civilized society of 300+ million people.
"Freedom and the ability of the citizenry to be able to defend themselves against outside forces or to stand up to and replace the government if needed is why the government was specifically limited in the Constitution."
Ironically, the is exactly what the ANTIFA/BLM folks think they are attempting to do with their violent uprisings. This is exactly what the nut cases that shot Gabby Giffords and Steve Scalise thought they were doing. I'm quite certain that these people genuinely thought they were standing up to a government that they feel is out of control. Are we to assume that these people were within their constitutional rights to "replace the government?"
Exactly who decides that a government needs replacing, and therefore gives the populace, or a certain segment of it, the right to do it by force?
Lest we forget, whatever rights we claim for ourselves, we must also afford to those with diametrically opposing opinions.
I'd like to see each and every one of you that say there should be absolutely zero limitations of what guns law abiding citizen can own.......Simply answer KPCs question...... Do you believe that citizens should be allowed to possess chemical or biological weapons...?? Is there ANYTHING that you believe someone should not be allowed to have ???
Yeah chemical and biological weapons are definitely not "arms". Having said that, you could change the argument some and you MAY have a valid point. There is certainly a line somewhere, but the point is that there is one currently, so why continue to further erode it? Honestly, I could give two craps about bump stocks, but 99% of the folks reading this know the proposed infringement to that line will not stop.
All citizens have the right to stand up to the government. However, my suggestion to any lone wolves out there is that they may want to talk it over with their neighbors first. If there are very few or no other supporters to your cause, that will be the difference between a revolutionary action and that of a common criminal. One person can't decide the fate of the country, but a large portion of the citizenry can.
"Yeah chemical and biological weapons are definitely not "arms"."
Sure they are. They may not be "firearms," but they are indeed "arms." Arms (or armaments) are by definition "weapons."
All citizens have the right to stand up to the government."
Do they? Did James T. Hodgkinson have the right to shoot Steve Scalise? Did John Wilkes Booth have the right to shoot Abraham Lincoln?
"If there are very few or no other supporters to your cause, that will be the difference between a revolutionary action and that of a common criminal. One person can't decide the fate of the country, but a large portion of the citizenry can. "
Ok, what is the cutoff number? There about 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. If they decided to all get together and violently "stand up to the government" would that be a "criminal" act or a "revolution?" How about the close to 40 million African Americans. Is that a large enough number? Do they have the legal right overthrow a government that they feel is out of control?
In my opinion, some really need to rethink the notion that all Constitutional rights are absolute.
Of course there is a line somewhere and according to our Constitution it is the Supreme Court that determines where that line sits, following the meaning and intent of our Constitutional Rights as stated therein. It's not a perfect system, but it's OUR system and it remains the best one out there. For all the people here who quote the Constitution in their arguments, you might want to read up on what has already been said by the Highest Court.
When the SCOTUS ruled in Heller that the 2nd Amend applied to all citizens just like every other right, and not just to the term "militia", we were thrilled! However, through the major decisions like Miller (1939) and Heller (2008) the Court has also ruled that unusual and dangerous weapons, like a sawed off shotgun in Miller, are not specifically protected by the 2nd Amendment. Scalia reaffirmed that machine guns are not specifically protected by the amendment, but added "the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home". The idea of 'common in use for the time' was also clearly established in the Heller decision. HUGE. That eliminates the dopey argument about only muskets being available when the Constitution was written. As a lawful weapon, suitable for both home defense and militia service, common in use for the time.... the so-called "Assault Rifle" is not an exception to the rule, it's the Constitutionally protected gold standard!
However, Scalia in Heller also says that this right is not unlimited and would not apply to nukes and tanks and machine guns. That silly argument has already been refuted, whether we like the answer or not.
I feel very confident that if the Court reviewed this argument to ban military style rifles, and they actually read and ruled based on prior case law, there is no way such a ban of military style rifles and 30rd mags could ever pass. At least with "Originalists" sitting in majority on the bench! But to be honest, I didn't see things like bump stocks and 100rd drums in my Marine Corps infantry kit, and I do not think these particular items meet the Courts description of 'ordinary' military equipment and rather more like the 'dangerous and unusual' items that would not be Constitutionally protected.
My Favorite Quote from Scalia in Heller that we should all remember- "The very enumeration of the right takes out of the hands of government – even the Third Branch of Government – the power to decide on a case-by-case basis whether the right is really worth insisting upon. A constitutional guarantee subject to future judges’ assessments of its usefulness is no constitutional guarantee at all. Constitutional rights are enshrined with the scope they were understood to have when the people adopted them, whether or not future legislatures or (yes) even future judges think that scope too broad. "
And yet... it's statistaically safe to state that we all have the components of potential chemical weapons under our sinks, in our closets and in our garages. And the First Amendment recognized absolute right of Free Speech has kept the Anarchist's Cookbook in print and readily available long after even the author thought it should be removed from circulation. That book has been referenced in many terror attacks around the world. Far more than the number of attacks involving bump stocks.
I don't own any bump stocks and don't foresee my ever purchasing one. However, Big Bear, if I did own a bump stock, or a fully automatic rifle, or an RPG, or a stinger missile, or a cruise missile... you wouldn't be at greater risk from me. Just as you are at no risk from me because of my knowledge of chemistry.
Or, I believe Lex's. if I remember correctly, it's Lex who was running a polymerization plant?
There are lots of things more frightening to me than bump stocks. I think Lex would agree.
It's very easy, if you read the 2nd Amendment as a whole article. "Keep and bear arms" means you do both. "Bear arms" in this context means carry.
You don't have to take the argument to the absurdity of owning a nuclear bomb or a nuclear submarine equipped with cruise missiles. Although, if you think about it, they are built by private companies, who do possess them before transferring them to the government. I don't recall, living near a Lockheed Martin facility, anything bad happening with their showering bombs in the Denver metro area.
Very good points Bowsniper, some of which lead me to the next question.
For those that contend that the second amendment...
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
...specifically allows for those arms to be used "to stand up to and replace the government if needed," how do you reconcile this with the 1st amendment...
" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
...which clearly states that the people only have the right to "peaceably" assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances?
Do the rights granted in the 2A supersede the rights granted in the 1A?
"Although, if you think about it, they are built by private companies, who do possess them before transferring them to the government. I don't recall, living near a Lockheed Martin facility, anything bad happening with their showering bombs in the Denver metro area."
So are machine guns and bump stocks. They are manufactured by private companies who also possess them prior to distribution.
And yes, I can think of one specific recent example where they were used to shower bullets over a certain city in Nevada, killing at least 58 people and injuring more than 500 more.
Again, I am not arguing were the "line" should be, but I am arguing that there should indeed be one, and that the 2A is not absolute as some would contend.
If someone were to have suggested to the framers of the constitution that there would be bombs capable of killing millions of people via the splitting of atomic nuclei (which hadn't even been discovered yet), and that there would be weapons that could spread disease over an entire population of people, or even that someone would have a rifle that could fire 1500 shots per minute, I'm quite certain one of them might have said that there was "no need for reductio ad absurdum."
This is absurd. It blows my mind the number of police officers that feel it is ok to limit a citizens rights. I know it is a hard way to make a living. But, laws aren't making it any easier. And, limiting the people who you deal very little with, from owning something does little good for your cause. I don't understand men that think they can regulate this from happening. IT has never worked in anytime, any culture, for only one reason. And, laws that address it isn't one of them. This will be no different.
Here is what I know about this. Seeing his weapons fitted with bipod's, it is starting to make sense how he ran those bump stocks so effectively. They require the gun's recoil to make them fire repeatedly. Anybody that has shot bipod's much knows you can get them with the option of "loading" the springs. In other words, when you address and shoulder the weapon, you push it forward into the springs of the bipod. It is very effective at steadying the shot. And, would work in total conjunction with preloading the weapon for the next shot. Making a weapon fitted with a bump stock very reliable to fire repetitively. Should we out law bipods as well then?
Where is the line you speak of Big Bear? Where is the subjective reasoning that will not be objective to political woes? Freedom isn't free. And, the freedoms we have, come with a lot of responsibility. Not one individual American life is worth what this country is. Mine, yours, my kids, your kids. If we all died today, it would be worth America standing as intended. You can't be a patriot and feel any different.
Human nature is the culprit of the crime. Nothing fixes that but one thing. And, putting bandaid's on something only prevents infection. Not prevents the wounds. Why someone can't see that is beyond me. It is pure arrogance, ignorance, and the definition of absurdity. God Bless men
Nobody, certainly not me, is suggesting that you can regulate what happened in LV away. You cannot. No law is going to stop people from doing immoral and downright evil things against other human beings.
However, that taken to it's logical conclusion, begs the question, why have any laws at all then? Why make murder illegal if it's not going to stop a murderer? Why make rape illegal if it's not going to stop a rapist? Why make robbery illegal if it's not going to stop a robber?
I'm simply asking if the 2A is absolute? If it is, then it must include all weapons, whether or not they were thought of at the time of the framing of the constitution. If not, where do we draw the line? That is not an absurd question. Far from it. If you say there is no line, then you simply must be comfortable with BLM, ISIS, or any other fringe group purchasing a nuke, a chemical or biological weapon, or a scud missile.
You and others may think that's absurd but the fact is, there are those that are trying to do just that every single day.
The difference is that rape isn't a right and always results in a victim. Owning weapons is a right, only results in a victim if they are misused or malfunction, can save lives, and help insure our freedom.
I think one of the main thing I learned from the shooting was how the average American steps up to a crisis. The police are very important, of course, but look at how many citizens stepped up and saved people. Some even got shot and kept on helping. Look at the guy that stole a truck and hauled people to the hospital, several times. There are some great people out there. He even returned the truck.
Yes. You were born with a natural "right", or instinct to defend yourself. All creatures are. If they didn't they would have become extinct at the start. If you think about it we really don't need a document to tell us that. It's kinda like breathing.
Kevin. I do believe that all our Amendments were written to be absolute. Not that they've been treated that way. But, yes I believe all are absolute. The reason all amendments have been infringed upon is due to the 2A not being recognized as absolute.
We can debate what's happened in history. That doesn't make it correct or, even lawful.
KPC, do you even read an entire post before shooting back a defensive retort? This little snippet from my post above you overlooked.
"There is certainly a line somewhere, but the point is that there is one currently, so why continue to further erode it?"
...yet you go on to argue just that point.
In regards to your questions about the overthrow of the government; those groups absolutely have the right to do so if their reasoning is that the government has gotten too powerful. This country was founded on a similar premise in case you've forgotten. However, if the remaining citizenry doesn't agree with them, the government or the remainder of the country may not simply just stand back and allow it. If you believe that having rights means there are no consequences that may go along with said rights, then I can't help you.
The document doesn't tell us this. The right is inherent. The document only affirms the government's limitations. If the 2A were repealed, the right still exists just as it did the day before. The only change is losing a clarification on the government's limits. The Constitution doesn't grant and cannot remove the rights the 2A addresses.
If you come home and your family is being held at gunpoint, its OK to infringe on the gunman's right and disarm him. He still has the right, but his abuse of it resulted in allowing it to be infringed upon.
Most terror attacks are planned in private. If there was no privacy, we could all be safer from secretly planned attacks. Does that mean we should give up privacy? Or, should we be free to have a private conversations and only have that right infringed upon by the government if we do something to warrant it?
"Yes. You were born with a natural "right", or instinct to defend yourself."
OK, just for sh*ts and giggles, what if a local PD got a tip that a local Mosque or a chapter of BLM had this in their basement, what would you suggest they do? I guess you'd be OK with it as long as they assured the authorities that it was only for self defense?
Pretty clear the Supremes said there are limits and restrictions and have been for a long time. Well "regulated" in the day meant well equipped, but doesn't mean unlimited firepower. Certainly a balancing act of words and technology...... and right now there seems a balance. One step outside that..... automatic weapons are not illegal, but proper permits required to own them and checks that they not fall into the wrong hands. Explosives can be purchased and owned with the proper permits. All that seems to have worked pretty well for the most part. But people who are intent on acts such as these are bound by no laws, man's nor God. Laws and regulations such as these are only meant to keep law abiding people inside the guardrails.
The bump fire stock was a work around the "spirit" of the law and fact would seem to violate it as they convert arms to a form of automatic in field use if not practical use. I can see the slippery slope argument. But I can also see reasons for banning them. I, like several here had never heard of them before, seems they were certainly in a dark quiet corner, confined to fun at the range? No more. Now EVERYONE knows about them and that niche will explode, no matter what is done. If I had to bet...... these will be banned. And lucky if magazine capacity is not effected as well. Personally, I know laws such as this will make little to no difference. But a good many think they will. Again, they only will have an impact on the already law abiding.
WRT rights, there is no right to violent overthrow of the government, or any protest of the government that is not peaceful. Violent anything that is not self-defense. It is illegal and should be enforced. Some cases it has not been.
While the Constitution and Bill of Rights explicitly give no such rights....... what it clearly does is grant the ability, means and the threat of such, which is likely just enough. It makes this grand human experiment of a country that much more special.
"KPC, do you even read an entire post before shooting back a defensive retort? This little snippet from my post above you overlooked."
Yes, I do read the entire post, and if I go to the trouble of cutting and pasting a direct quote, that is a pretty good indication that the particular quote I posted is the one I'm directly responding to.
Both the quotes I posted...
"Yeah chemical and biological weapons are definitely not "arms.""
"All citizens have the right to stand up to the government."
...are complete and absolute in and of themselves. One is incorrect and the other is incomplete. That is what I was taking issue with.
The "snippet" you are now referencing has nothing whatsoever to do with my particular issue with those two statements.
The 2nd Amendment is absolute in its guarantee of the Right to Bear Arms. But as Justice Scalia said in Heller (and which now becomes legal precedent)- "Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.
We have the right to self defense, for home defense, and with firearms suitable for the use in the Militia for the common defense. But the Court gets to decide, and has in the past, what qualifies as "arms" under the original intent of the Founding Fathers in the 2nd Amendment. Slide-Fire or Hellfire Triggers, etc, do not have a chance in hell of remaining legal as a mostly-full auto loophole.... as they fail the test of "dangerous and unusual" weapons.
There is a lot of rational thought going on here WVM. If anyone doesn't believe that a whole host of nefarious characters aren't trying desperately to get their hands on a nuke (for self defense of course) they are in total denial.
KPC - I have no desire to possess a nuke, artillery, an RPG or, heck, even a bump stock. I'm just saying that my possession of any of those things would not result in greater risk to you.
I understand that you consider bump stocks to be on the wrong side of the line with regard to the Second Amendment. Where's your line with the First Amendment? Which side is the Anarchist's Cookbook on? Or Rod Coronado's speeches detailing the step by step construction of timed incendiary devices?
Kevin, I don't share a lot of the notions around here that you are a bad guy. I happen to think just the opposite. But, there is no way a correlation in someone owning a bump stock versus a nuclear weapon. It makes no sense to even suggest there is, outside of inflated examples used to prove a point.
I have no earthy use for the things. But, I don't remember in the last 40 years where an otherwise "sane" person has done so much carnage. This liberal movement is doing every thing possible in action to expose us the citizen to every real threat this world presents. But, acts as if one wacko, without a previous criminal record, represents the majority of threats for the future of America. There are reasons this happened. We may never know it as a society but, in my mind its getting a little to convenient for it to always be in the favor of argument for the liberal movement worldwide.
I know you are just trying to get some resolution in your own mind. So am I and, everyone else. But, giving one inch here will result in the lose of miles in the future. This isn't about the absoluteness of the 2A as you and Big Bear are presenting it to validate your opinion or, to form your opinion. It's about what is right and wrong for the betterment of America. God Bless
It should make everyone think. When they were searching for Tsarnov, the police were going house to house demanding that people leave their homes and police teams would the search them. Obviously exigent circumstances, but who makes the call that warrantless searches are justified?
And who's going to make the call on gun control? My time for catching up on the news is limited, but I haven't heard anyone come up with an answer to the question, "Which gun control measure would've stopped Stephen Paddock?"
From everything that I've seen, no one even thinks that new restrictions would've stopped this scumbag.
But around here, the chant of Australia has begun.
Fifty eight people are dead. The wife and daughter of one of the guys on Rokslide had been at that concert. They are OK physically, but they're going to have lasting echoes. I look at my wife and kids and shudder thinking about it.
I'm pissed off. I think anyone who's human is pissed off about this chitheel destroying so many lives and families. It's stunning that anyone could be so self-absorbed that they could think that their pathetic grievances with the world would need to be paid by fifty eight innocent people and their families.
"But, there is no way a correlation in someone owning a bump stock versus a nuclear weapon. It makes no sense to even suggest there is, outside of inflated examples used to prove a point."
There actually is a correlation, let me explain how.
If one agrees that the average citizen should not be able to own a nuclear/chemical/biological weapon, they are also agreeing that the 2A is not absolute. Once that has been established, then it's only a matter of where we as a nation draw the line.
So yes, comparing a nuke and a bump stock might seem ridiculous (inflated) until you realize that if one maintains that the 2A is indeed absolute, they must also maintain that the average citizen has the right to own both.
There are no easy answers, and that's why even ardent supporters of the 2A still struggle with them.
Sadly, as I stated before, citizens owning a nuke isn't as far fetched as people might think. 20 years ago, a smart phone, and what they are capable of sounded just as ridiculous. In many ways, social media is to the 1A what a nuke is to the 2A.
"...are complete and absolute in and of themselves. One is incorrect and the other is incomplete. That is what I was taking issue with."
I'll concede your first point on a technicality because one of four major online dictionaries did indeed use the word armament in reference to arms. However, it was only one of the four I checked. In full disclosure though, two of those didn't even reference anything related to weaponry at all; odd. Anyway, that in no way negates the remainder of a post, and the fact that there is and should be a present day line somewhere. This we agree on.
I'll add that I do believe it was meant to be absolute in the beginning. However, with present day technology providing us with one-off weapons of mass destruction and the possibility for maniacal individuals to own them, I can't personally justify an "absolute" definition of the 2A. Unfortunately this provides fodder for the gun grabbers, but you are certainly correct in there being no easy answer.
As for the 2nd item, it's called a sentence. Multiple of them make a paragraph. The remainder of the paragraph did indeed address the point. You appear to be cherry picking simply for the sake of argument.
"You appear to be cherry picking simply for the sake of argument."
And with all due respect, you appear to have misunderstood my attention to the concept of "absolute" and how it pertains to this discussion. It is indeed THE paramount question regarding the 2A. Either we have the right to possess all weapons, or a line must be drawn somewhere. That has been my point all along.
Since you accused me of something, let's set the record straight.
As to the definition, Merriam-Webster defines "arms" as "weapons and ammunition; armaments"
Dictionary.com defines "arms" as "weapons, especially firearms."
Cambridge dictionary defines "arms" as "weapons and explosives used in fighting wars."
I could go on and on but virtually every source defines "arms" as "weapons," therefore the statement that I quoted is indeed incorrect.
Lastly, even if you take the second quote in complete context...
"All citizens have the right to stand up to the government. However, my suggestion to any lone wolves out there is that they may want to talk it over with their neighbors first. If there are very few or no other supporters to your cause, that will be the difference between a revolutionary action and that of a common criminal. One person can't decide the fate of the country, but a large portion of the citizenry can."
...the statement I quoted is still incomplete.
All citizens have the right to PEACEFULLY stand up to their government.
Now hopefully we can move on to the broader discussion as to where we draw a line, while still honoring the intent of the 2A.
Thumper - "A question I have about the LV shooting is why was there no return fire to the 32nd floor of the hotel ????."
My guess is that the police didn't want to kill other hotel guests. Unless they were evacuated, they were probably at the windows trying to figure out what was going on. And, the shooter only shot for 9-11 minutes. Not sure what the average LV cop carries, but it probably isn't accurate at 400+ yards at night. By the time SWAT showed up, he was probably done shooting.
One of my questions is, how did Paddock break 2 large hotel windows without anyone noticing? Granted, it was nighttime, but Vegas lights never go out. There had to have been someone who saw or heard all that glass when it came crashing down from 30 floors in the air.
Another question. It's been reported Paddock hung cameras outside his room to detect when police arrived. Didn't anyone see him doing that, and wonder why?
Exactly what was hotel security doing the whole time, playing nickel slot machines in the lobby?
Here is one interesting techno gun nerd thing to consider. It has me a bit puzzled on face value. At one of the sheriff interviews they talked about the first security guard who went to the killer's room and was shot in the leg. The sheriff was asked how many bullets were fired at that security guard outside the door by the killer. Answer - maybe 200.
Initially you have to think how incredibly lucky that security guard was to have been hit only once (or twice?) and how important that event for the whole situation because it seems Paddock killed himself immediately after. And with SWAT not storming the room until a half hour later, that security guard intervention really saving hundreds of lives!
But back to the techno gun details - how does one shoot 200 rounds from an AR platform? I still have not seen any 100rd drums in any of the police photos leaked out. I suppose it could have been two 60rd mags dumped at the door, and some 120 holes in the wall could look like an estimate of 200. But makes you wonder what kind of weapons and mags were really in that room!
In the big picture - if he shot some 200 rounds at the door, he must have really been sending big round counts out the window, his main focus. Really makes you think....
WVM; You ask me where the line is ?? It's a tough question but I do believe there has to be a line. Of course I think it should be illegal for a citizen to possess a nuclear weapon or a chemical weapon or biological weapon.... And I'll throw in RPGs, gernades, mines, mortars...... and fully automatic machine guns. Actually I consider myself pro gun. I don't think the citizens of Michigan should have to get a CPL to carry a concealed pistol..... But like KPC has been talking about.... I feel there has to be a line drawn somewhere on what is legal to own by citizens..... I don't agree with the guy who said a citizen should be able to buy a fully armed F-22 if he has the money..... So.... since I think that fully automatic rifles should be illegal..... An ingenious loophole like a bump stock that pretty much turns a semi auto rifle into a machine gun should be illegal........ Just my opinion.....
I've explained what I thought concerning the absolute nature of the 2A. And, I explained that comparing a nuclear weapon to owning a bump stock is irrelevant in my mind. I've also explained why.
To clarify, no legislation will prevent this in the future. Just as none would have prevented this happening. Instead of looking for better answer of how to legislate guns, we should be looking into the course the left has taken to oppose American fundamentals. The length in which they are going, the freedoms they have been given to do it, and the funding of these movements. Politically and privately.
Ever since watching Tucker Carlson interview that twit from California, who boasted of having an 80 million dollar budget to pay for protest, the realization of what we faced as a country has really become of interest to me. Division is becoming ever more present under these practices. Something any non liberal gets reamed for. But, something liberal America gets praised for. this is no coincidence in my mind. Because it has become to convenient, orchestrated, and often to resemble random.
We the people. Which is of course subjective. The intent is that we have available the means to prevent Government from getting out of its box. Whether this experiment will work or a coop will happen and we lose all we can't know. However when the people have severely limited arms the armed can do anything they want with you.
"It should make everyone think. When they were searching for Tsarnov, the police were going house to house demanding that people leave their homes and police teams would the search them. Obviously exigent circumstances, but who makes the call that warrantless searches are justified?"
These decisions are made on the spot by the officers and/or supervisor, then subject to Monday morning QB review by the court system. The courts will make the decision as to whether it was warranted or not.
We can spend a lot of time debating absolutes. 4th Amendment protections are a constantly evolving area, much like 2nd Amendment protections. The courts have, and will continue to decide on times and/or circumstances where these protections are not absolute, such as the SWAT teams searching homes without warrant for the Boston Marathon bombers.
"One of my questions is, how did Paddock break 2 large hotel windows without anyone noticing?"
I'm only speculating, but I doubt it was a matter of nobody noticing. The way I see it, by the time the sound of the windows breaking or the glass coming down registered with anyone, the bullets had already started to rain down.
In the ensuing pandemonium, the glass breaking was irrelevant at that point.
Let's not forget, this was all amid a country (rock) concert with 20 thousand plus screaming fans. Every concert I have ever been to, country or otherwise, left my ears ringing for hours afterwards.
I think the police said there were hammers or something laying in the room which indicated how he likely broke the windows. And by what they found, they believed he had the intent of surviving and escaping??? No more info on that yet, but as carefully as he had planned this whole attack, would be very interesting to know what they found. I can't see escaping out the hotel room door... but with cameras set at the door, maybe he had ropes with the plan to escape out the now open windows???
Gray Ghost;; I'm sure guys can sit in their garage and figure out a way to make flame throwers like they used in Vietnam too.... That doesn't mean I should be able to walk into Gander Mountain and buy one.....
I've learned more about bump stocks the past few days than I ever knew, which admittedly was very little. But based on what I have learned, I now see that banning them would be at best a symbolic gesture because apparently you can achieve the same thing by just holding the gun a certain way. It's not safe and not accurate so I, and I assume many other "gun nuts", would have very little interest in it.
What made Paddock as dangerous as he was (other than they fact that he was nuts) was the fact that he had the MONEY to buy more guns than he'd ever need to do this deed, as well as TWO airplanes (and just ponder for a moment what he'd have done with a plane full of fuel and tannerite), so maybe we should ban money, or limit the amount any one person can have in case they go bat-sh*y crazy. Same logic.....or lack thereof.
No you can't ban guns. And you can't ban airplanes of course..... but you can lock the cockpit and put an Air Marshal on board to ensure that some nut bag doesn't sky jack the flight and crash it into a building..... For the same reason it should be illegal to own certain weapons..... To at least slow down the nut bags from doing crazy crap like this.
Explain to us how your twisted curse for a mind works freegay, what do you see wrong in that video? Nothing that isn't done at a number of public and/or private ranges throughout this great nation near every day. Now I know your pathetic hero the America hating race pimp Parasite OBOZO wouldn't approve either, if he had his way all guns would be banned. Is it just you being a sheep blindly following the leader or is there more to your ignorance and insanity?
Sleepy......... On a serious note if that a-hole had opened up on a crowd of people with one of those flame thrower toys I'd be saying the exact same thing about the flame thrower..... it's ridiculous to even own one. For what ??
I didn't know they existed for the regular guy to own till I saw them for sale at a gun show this year. I remember the guy selling them said they had a range of 30 ft. Why someone would want one is anyone's guess.
You're missing the point Woods Walker.... Neither one of us is going to change our mind so what's the point ?? My stand remains that you have to draw the line somewhere as to what is legal to buy..... so that means SOME things must be banned.
No, I get it BB, it's just that if you ban one item then the next time they STILL kill using another item. What are you going to do, eventually ban everything?
I have no use for a bump stock and have zero interest in even trying one, so one part of me doesn't really care if they're banned or not. But we both know that the left will NEVER be satisfied with some irrelevant accessory, they want ALL guns banned. They even said so.
The reality is that banning bump stocks will essentially do ZERO to reduce some nutjob wanting to kill people.
Big Bear... just who the hell are you telling people what they should own or not own .... a person donst need a Mustang that will do 160 mph (hell, he may just speed right ?), a person dosnt need a Porsche, a person dosnt need to live in a million dollar mansion, YOU dont need that donut..... as long as something is legal, just who the hell are you as dictator in charge have any right to say what one can own....
" Nut jobs" and carnage are not specific to a dedicated segment of society. Anyone, anywhere with or without affiliation could be a "nut job" and that includes law enforcement. Mathematically impossible to thwart and or predict the premeditated failings of a devious mind to commit a horrendous act. Someone claimed that law enforcement was "outgunned". Law enforcement was neither outgunned nor out manned. The perpetrator was a single shooter possessing the element of surprise and a controlling position. Law enforcement was neither "held off", delayed or overpowered in their pursuit once the location was discovered. Their speed to locate and engage the shooter is nothing short of amazing considering the conditions of distance and elevation. This horrific tragedy, as brutal and heartbreaking as it was, could have been cataclysmic in scope and numbers. Hero's emerge and step forward without thought for themselves when needed. These brave souls, many times the quiet and unassuming, are always present and ready. Thank God for them. Once again, guns no matter their capacity do not kill people. Never have and never will.
BEAR: Using nukes or bio/chem weapons is not really an accurate comparison. Yes, they can both be called "weapons", but the mere EXISTENCE of them are a threat in that even if they haven't been launched they are STILL dangerous just sitting there. A bump stock or even a full auto firearm poses NO danger unless a human get's involved.
HEY! Maybe we need to ban HUMANS! That's the common link in ALL this! But.....then you'd be out of a job, so maybe that's a bad idea......;-)
You know many cops who want guns off the street? Is that a news flash? I and everyone else wants guns "off the street". Do you realize that the guns on the street in question, the ones causing the problems, are already illegal? Possessed illegally or held by felons and or minors? More gun laws change NOTHING. YOU may not understand that, but the police as a whole do.
I'm a simple man gflight.....I sure as hell don't have the answer to everything..... but "Which weapons should be banned"...."Who is the judge" ?? Umm,,, As a U.S. Citizen,,, I'm OK with leaving it up to the Supreme Court to hash all that out.......