Any idea what Pence's little orchestrated point cost the taxpayers?
Don't you think "brink of civil war" is being a little melodramatic? I hope it takes more than a few ignorant athletes to start a civil war. If not, then I guess we'll get what we deserve.
Matt
What did it gain? It reinforced the point the administration, and many others, are trying to make, that the message of the protest is unacceptable.
It's still avoiding the underlying issue of at least pretending this administration cares about addressing or discussing any real or perceived issues of racial inequality. The Trump administration is spending an awful lot of time on asserting this is a disrespectful act, without overtly acknowledging the reasoning behind the act in the first place.
Isn't it somewhat contradictory to tell a group of largely non-military folks their actions are disrespectful to the military, while seemingly refusing to acknowledge a racial minority group feels like they have not achieved equality in America?
Until they stop blaming others for their own bad life choices, then they will continue to be what they are. If that makes me racist then so be it. But it's the truth.
How about if he chose NOT to attend a football game on the taxpayers dime to begin with, and instead stayed in DC and worked on pushing the agenda he was elected for?
"...that the message of the protest is unacceptable."
Is it the message or the method of protest the administration is objecting to? I haven't heard them address the message.
Matt
The Rock
As for addressing whatever it is they are protesting (I hate to be dismissive but they have done a poor job of stating their case and what they want done to change things), an insult is a poor choice of ways to start a conversation with the guy you want help from.
I pretty much ignore your posts, when you get into your Samuel L. Clemens routine, but I will comment on your last one.
First, I simply don't see this so-called "seething hatred for white America" that you speak of. The blacks and other minorities I've spoke with are just as offended by the anthem kneeling as you and I are. These idiot athletes aren't a microcosm of anything but their own bloated egos and sense of importance.
Our flag doesn't just represent "white America" as you wrote. It represents all Americans, even those who disrespect it by kneeling. This whole thing will continue wash out in the court of public opinion, as most of it already has. Implying that it's the start of civil war is laughable, even for a drama queen like you.
The Matt
WW,
I won't disagree with you one iota there are cultural and societal issues black people need to address, no different than other racial groups. True leadership is not telling one faction their issues are non-existent and/or avoiding them, or changing the subject. True leaders bring them to the table and simply ask the questions "what is the problem and what would you like to be different?" It doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem, or if there is one it is easily remedied.
If DJT can form a committee to examine the issue of voter fraud, I would certainly think he can form a committee to examine racial equality in the US. I'm not in any way suggesting DJT can solve the current racial tensions, but he can certainly start the process.
I'm not suggesting it's my or your responsibility to change someone else's circumstance, but if I refuse to recognize issues may or do exist, I've become part of the problem. President Trump represents all Americans, and has the responsibility and obligation to listen to issues presented to him. Our government has stated all people should be treated equally without discrimination per federal law. It would be no different than me being upset at my local law enforcement for not ensuring laws were being followed and telling me to fix it myself.
Instead of focusing on WHY the players were kneeling and addressing the underlying issue, DJT has masterfully morphed this into a cultural battle where he can avoid the underlying issue. That's not true leadership. Like it our not, democracy is a collaborative process and our President seems to have forgotten that.
"...while seemingly refusing to acknowledge a racial minority group feels like they have not achieved equality in America?"
Multi-millionaire athletes and they haven't achieved "equality"? ****ing crack me up!! Instead of taking a knee, do something quietly with all the $$$$ to make the world a better place.
The Rock
"Hey! Bob why are you crapping on my lawn?!"
"Oh, hey neighbor. Just wanted to get your attention. My trees have more aphids than most in the neighborhood and I wanted your help putting the word out to find a solution at the HOA meeting."
"You could have just asked. I noticed the aphids but also noticed I never see you spray for them"
"I think someone brought aphids in when they landscaped but anyway, will you help"
"Ahhh...no, I am going but have a different issue"
"Whats that?"
"You crapping my yard"
"I told you it was just to get your attention!?"
"Well, it did."
JLS's Link
I am not saying the multi-millionaire athletes haven't achieved equality, and I don't think they are either. Kapearnick's initial protest was a poorly laid out protest of police brutality. Some athletes are doing a great deal in their communities, very quietly. The attached link details some of the work NFL players are doing in their communities.
Our nation would benefit from helping reduce and/or break the cultural trends that surround impoverished neighborhoods. I'm all for personal accountability and making good choices, but also realize kids from some of these families are simply doing what they've learned. Looking at ways to break the cycle would reduce burdens on our law enforcement agencies, court systems, social workers and put forth workers into the job force.
Is that all you got? Childish insults and a bloated sense of enlightenment? I'm not surprised, just a bit disappointed.
The Matt
I don't owe anyone anything. After looking at my tax forms for the last 30 years, I'm pretty dang sure someone owes me something though. I'm not a prejudice man either and, do not expect to be treated as if I owe anyone's childish emotions the notions it takes to even say "I hear You on that.".
70% of the NFL venue costs been funded on the tax payers dime. Welfare recipients are funded on the tax payers dime. EVERYTHING about what these people are supposedly protesting are only fathomable because of the tax payers dime. I'm sick of Americans pouting and saying look at me.
I was raised dirt poor. No TV, No soda, hand me down clothes, one pair of shoes, two pairs of pants per year. We ate when we had it and, worked hard to ensure we had something. I was made fun of by teachers for my clothes, my old shoes, etc..... I've been at the bottom and, while I'm not far from it now, I owe no one an apology for having what I have acquired. And, I'm tired of hearing entitled dimwits suggest I do.
If any person, of any color wants out of what they got, they have a choice. If they don't like to be treated like a thug by LEO's, perhaps they shouldn't act and dress like one. That goes for any race. And for goodness sake's, get off your friggin' knees protesting whatever injustice you feel like blaming today and, go to WORK and do something about your "oppression".
Minority's of race are NOT treated unfairly in this country by white America. We are paying for their continued way of life!!!!!!! Besides, the word minority no longer means anything unless it describes an American that works for a living. Screw race. This is just another liberal movement. t That's it. It isn't about injustice.
It was beautifully sang by a group 30-40 of teachers.
Followed by loud and enthusiastic applause.
Oh, yes, you do. There are many things that you tax dollars cannot purchase. They are not what the left thinks, but they are just as real and much more important.
. . .
. . .
You will probably have to illustrate it with cartoons for the left leaning and lefty progressives. They just won't get it.
JTV, on the spot, as usual. It is reported as political grandstanding by the VP, but not the NFL? Just who is the MSM fooling anymore?
I'm not going to attack you, you have raised some legitimate questions. As to how many donate time and money? I have no idea. I posted a short list, I don't have the time nor inclination to look for more. I do know there are some lesser known players who do a lot of work in their communities without any fanfare.
As to financial motives for charitable foundations? I'm sure some donate with this in mind. I have no idea if there is a higher rate of benevolence and philanthropy within the NFL. I would guess it's probably relatively close to society as a whole. Could some do more? I'm sure they could. I imagine a lot of us could do more, myself included, if we are honest with ourselves.
And yes, you are entirely correct. I sincerely hope those players who are choosing to take a knee are doing much more than that outside of game days. I know some are, but I'm sure there are a good number who don't and certainly should.
As to whether taking a knee is the best way to bring attention to this? I personally don't think so FWIW. I view it similarly to the open carry confrontations that were very common a few years ago, a misguided way to bring attention to an issue.
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The African Blacks back then had no respect because of the opportunity that America had to offer. They perceived American Blacks as handout leeches, refusing to work or fend for themselves, and stupid for not taking advantage of everything America had to offer. That came right out of the mouths of my fellow "Dark Green Marines" in my unit. Africans gave them the coldest of shoulders.
Alas, not having served since the '90s, or traveled to Africa, I am not up to date on how African Blacks perceive American Blacks.
. . . . but back in the day, it was not pretty . . . . . .
Now you are going to take me serious right? C'mon. GG, gets one response...Matt gets another. Take it easy. Samuel Clemens did bring a smile to my face though as he was required reading. ;-)
The Rock
And while we're at it, Let's correct a popular stupidity about these players: If people died for your right to free speech, you disrespect them when you DON'T use it, not when you DO!
The Rock
Is it jobs? There are lots of jobs out there. If they got out of the hood and learned a trade they could make a good living. I have worked construction my whole life. If I can work my way up the ladder threw hard work and learning anyone can.
I have a hard time feeling sorry for anyone that lives on welfare and won’t work.
Are there racists in this country. Yes there is. But how do you call out one race for being racists and not call out the ones in your own race.
How have you repaid your mother?
We are all indebted to this world connected one way or the other. I think we all know that is true and the aforementioned should not require explanation.
The Rock
Cowboys owner told his team if you can't stand and respect the flag you will sit the bench.
As for addressing the message the players are sending. Which message? The one they are TRYING to send, or the one they ARE sending? They aren't the same. All focus has been taken OFF what they are trying to do and put on a different message. Time to change tacts and take the steam out of the entire anthem issue.
You racist!!! ...Wait til we start the "Orange lives matter" movement!
Funny. I was thinking the same thing about Pence.
I have no problem with politicians attending sporting events on their own time and dime. But, when our VP flies cross country with his entourage to a football game, then walks out in a orchestrated PR stunt without even watching the game, all on the taxpayer's dime, that pisses me off.
IMO, he's got bigger fish to fry...like health care, tax reform, a balanced budget, just to name a few.
Matt
But, to clarify for you, I don't owe any one race, one person who feels oppressed, or any other dead beat that wants to insinuate that because I am a white male I am in a better position for being so, one SINGLE thing in the sense they imply. No apologies, no warm fuzzy feelings for their "hardships", NOTHING. Are we clear now?
Our politicians, and to some degree our military, are public servants. I don't want my tax dollars spent this way.
And we wonder why are national debt is so high......
Matt
Fulldraw1972's Link
People go to football games to be entertained, NOT lectured to by athletic carnies. Save that sh*t for your own time.
What does the song that symbolizes our war for independence have to do with entertainment, anyway? Do you sing the national anthem every time you watch a movie?
Wouldn't that at least solve the damn kneeling issue, and force those players who are dedicated to their cause to find a different method of protest and way to send their message?
Matt
There's no middle ground.
Besides, those rules aren't absolute. It's a GAME for God's sake. Rules are changed constantly. How about a rule omitting the playing of the anthem? I'd favor that.
Football doesn't symbolize anything about our great country, other than the freedom to play and watch a violent and dangerous sport, often played by men gifted with more physical abilities than cognitive. So why play the anthem?
I watch football because I enjoyed playing it, and I appreciate watching athletes who play it at a level I could only dream of. That's it. Football isn't a symbol of national pride for me. In some ways quite the opposite, like the egotism, silly celebrations, and all too frequent lack of sportsmanship. So why play the anthem? In some ways it's disrespectful to what the anthem symbolizes, anyway.
Just my 2 pennies and a pocket full of lint,
Matt
From a business standpoint, if they don't want to stop employees from insulting customers, removing the anthem would be better than continuing this. That decision would come with its own downside but it would be an improvement until players start expressing political messages some other way during games.
Again, the terms of the player's employment can and do change all the time. They are as significant as the employers choose to make them. There's that freedom thing, again, that you seem to be arguing against.
Matt
I feel like this would probably be met with more blow back than a few idiots taking a knee. Sports just suck in general when they become political.
I disagree. People who are paid millions usually have demonstrated they are worth it. Therefore, they have more autonomy to pick and choose their employer and define their terms of employment. Not so much for a burger-flipper.
"And this is all about freedom!"
I'm glad to see we agree on that. Those freedoms Include your choice to watch and support the NFL, or not. If enough people choose the latter, the NFL market will adjust accordingly. I'll still be watching for the reasons I stated earlier. Heck, I may even attend more games if they become more affordable...those $170 ticket prices and $8 beers are kinda hard to swallow.
Matt
However, we do all owe much to many for many different reasons, but not the reasons promulgated by the left.
In 2012, the NFL had an issue with Tim Tebow kneeling for each game to pray, they also had an issue with Tebow wearing John 3:16 as part of his blackout to avoid glare and made him take it off.
In 2013, the NFL fined Brandon Marshall for wearing green cleats to raise awareness for people with mental health disorders.
In 2014, Robert Griffin III (RG3) entered a post-game press conference wearing a shirt that said "Know Jesus Know Peace" but was forced to turn it inside out by an NFL uniform inspector before speaking at the podium.
In 2015, DeAngelo Williams was fined for wearing "Find the Cure" eye black for breast cancer awareness.
In 2015, William Gay was fined for wearing purple cleats to raise awareness for domestic violence. (not that the NFL has a domestic violence problem…)
In 2016, the NFL prevented the Dallas Cowboys from wearing a decal on their helmet in honor of 5 Dallas Police officers killed in the line of duty.
In 2016, the NFL threatened to fine players who wanted to wear cleats to commemorate the 15th anniversary of 9/11.
So tell me again how the NFL supports free speech and expression all of a sudden....
So what's your point, Henry? Should the NFL allow all those freedoms of speech and expression, or not, in your opinion? Should there be a line? If so, where should the line be drawn?
IMO, politics and special interests has no place in sports. So, none of those things you listed should be allowed by the league and owners. For that matter, I don't think displays, or protests, of national pride have any place in sports.
Do I think the NFL and owners will strive to make that happen? They will, unless they want to continue to bite the hand that feeds them.
Matt
Raise awareness? Start a conversation? They did, just not about whatever they are protesting. They chose a poor platform and haven't defined what they are protesting or what solution they want.
BS Atheist. Any Company with a Union or not can fire anyone for just and proper cause. In Jerry Jones case he could fire or bench anyone for disobeying a direct order.
Umm...no it doesn't. At least not in this country. An employee has the right to free speech, not a job. He can "free speak" his way right out of a job, if he wants to.
Matt
Sure you do Whitey, it's called "STUPID"!
Whitey: This is another example!
Maybe if those other countries had the hood rats that we do they'd be shooting them too. This sounds like the same crap they tell us about why Chicago's murder rate is so high.....it's the evil guns coming in from Indiana and down south where the laws are more lenient. What they fail to mention is that when those exact same guns wind up outside of Chicago the shooting rate is drasically lower. Maybe, just MAYBE it's a PEOPLE problem and not a gun problem?? Like the hood rats wouldn't kill each other anymore if they didn't have guns....riiiiiiiiiiight. And Obama never lied to us either.
Gray Ghost's Link
"Everyone should stand" during the national anthem, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell wrote in a memo to all 32 teams, adding that the NFL will present a plan next week to help "move past this controversy."
This will be a non-story in a few weeks. True fans will forgive and forget. Those who don't weren't fans to begin with.
Matt
If you want to continue to be paid by your employer. He does own you. Your service is an asset to his company. This is simple logic LHDA. Go tell your Boss he is a stupid idiot to his face and see what happens. He won't care about your free speech when he fires you.
Matt"
Patriot Americans wont forget. It has nothing to do with being a fan of football. However, it does have ever thing to do with being a fan of the USA
Are you implying football fans who remain so aren't patriotic Americans? Nonsense.
Or, are you suggesting a fan can't enjoy the sport and appreciate the physical talents of the players without sharing their political ideology? More nonsense.
It's entertainment. Do you agree with the politics of every actor in every movie you watch? I doubt it. So, why is football different?
Matt
Conviction to what? My love of the game of football? You're right, I won't compromise on that. Especially not for a misplaced sense of patriotism.
I've made it clear, my passion for football has nothing to do with my national pride. I couldn't care less whether they play the national anthem before the games, or not. I see far more fans at games buying hot dogs and beers during the anthem than I do players kneeling. And I know damn well very few stand with your hands to their hearts at home every time the anthem is played. Does that mean those folks aren't patriots, either?
You're free to exercise your boycotts for whatever reasons you choose. Just don't expect me to share them. And don't imply I'm somehow less patriotic than you for not doing so.
Matt
Another example of your poor behavior GG. You have zero respect for this country. You're no better than Antifa or BLM.
My patriotic principles have nothing to do with football, or entertainment in general. If yours do, fine, I won't deny you that. But I also won't deny how pathetic I find that.
You can have the last word. Frankly, I'm rather bored with this discussion, anyway.
Have a great weekend.
Matt
Keep on watching professional football, bashing anything Trump, and doing what makes you happy. The same guys your supreme athlete's spit in the face of by acting like belligerent thugs when they refuse to acknowledge the courtesy our anthem and flag deserves, provided you that ability. Even if you are too engrossed with the NFL to acknowledge that.
What do you expect from someone who does not vote.....
JLS's Link
Matt,
In a few weeks, our president will have found some other issue to polarize the nation.
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Is that where we are at today? Disrespectful behavior leads to personal meetings with the Leader of the free world?
I think Kaepernick should apologize, and repent prior to rewards.
