Sitka Mountain Gear
V.P. Pence walks out.......
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Contributors to this thread:
Rocky 09-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 09-Oct-17
Bob H in NH 09-Oct-17
Franzen 09-Oct-17
Solo 09-Oct-17
JLS 09-Oct-17
Woods Walker 09-Oct-17
keepemsharp 09-Oct-17
elkmtngear 09-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 09-Oct-17
Rocky 09-Oct-17
Glunt@work 09-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 09-Oct-17
Shuteye 09-Oct-17
JLS 09-Oct-17
Woods Walker 09-Oct-17
JLS 09-Oct-17
Bowbender 09-Oct-17
Rocky 09-Oct-17
Glunt@work 09-Oct-17
JLS 09-Oct-17
JTV 09-Oct-17
JLS 09-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 09-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 09-Oct-17
HA/KS 09-Oct-17
HA/KS 09-Oct-17
sportoutfitter 09-Oct-17
tonyo6302 09-Oct-17
JLS 09-Oct-17
tonyo6302 09-Oct-17
Whitey 09-Oct-17
JTV 09-Oct-17
Rocky 09-Oct-17
Ryan from Boone 09-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 09-Oct-17
Rocky 09-Oct-17
Fulldraw1972 09-Oct-17
HA/KS 09-Oct-17
Woods Walker 09-Oct-17
Woods Walker 09-Oct-17
HA/KS 09-Oct-17
Woods Walker 09-Oct-17
Rocky 09-Oct-17
Thumper 10-Oct-17
Bob H in NH 10-Oct-17
freeglee 10-Oct-17
JTV 10-Oct-17
70lbdraw 10-Oct-17
Woods Walker 10-Oct-17
JTV 10-Oct-17
Spike Bull 10-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 10-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 10-Oct-17
Bentstick81 10-Oct-17
longbeard 10-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 10-Oct-17
Fulldraw1972 10-Oct-17
Whitey 10-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 10-Oct-17
Woods Walker 10-Oct-17
JTV 10-Oct-17
Spike Bull 11-Oct-17
Woods Walker 11-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 11-Oct-17
Spike Bull 11-Oct-17
Woods Walker 11-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 11-Oct-17
Spike Bull 11-Oct-17
Glunt@work 11-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 11-Oct-17
bigswivle 11-Oct-17
sleepyhunter 11-Oct-17
Tiger eye 11-Oct-17
sleepyhunter 11-Oct-17
Spike Bull 11-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 11-Oct-17
HA/KS 11-Oct-17
HA/KS 11-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 11-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 11-Oct-17
Atheist 11-Oct-17
Glunt@work 11-Oct-17
JTV 11-Oct-17
sleepyhunter 11-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 11-Oct-17
bigswivle 11-Oct-17
Whitey 11-Oct-17
Woods Walker 11-Oct-17
JTV 11-Oct-17
JTV 11-Oct-17
Whitey 11-Oct-17
Woods Walker 11-Oct-17
K Cummings 11-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 11-Oct-17
Woods Walker 11-Oct-17
JTV 11-Oct-17
JTV 11-Oct-17
Spike Bull 12-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 12-Oct-17
MT in MO 12-Oct-17
sleepyhunter 12-Oct-17
Spike Bull 12-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 12-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 12-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 13-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 13-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 13-Oct-17
sleepyhunter 13-Oct-17
freeglee 13-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 13-Oct-17
Gray Ghost 13-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 13-Oct-17
slade 13-Oct-17
Mad dog 13-Oct-17
Spike Bull 14-Oct-17
JLS 14-Oct-17
Spike Bull 14-Oct-17
tonyo6302 15-Oct-17
From: Rocky
09-Oct-17
The VP walked out of the the Colts game Sunday when 49'er players knelt during the National Anthem. This was to be Peyton Mannings Day in Indianapolis. Pence said he was looking forward to having pictures and meeting Peyton Manning. That all went up in smoke. The POTUS had asked Pence to leave if someone took a knee. They did and he was gone. Character personified. We are on the brink of a civil war.

From: Gray Ghost
09-Oct-17
Rocky,

Any idea what Pence's little orchestrated point cost the taxpayers?

Don't you think "brink of civil war" is being a little melodramatic? I hope it takes more than a few ignorant athletes to start a civil war. If not, then I guess we'll get what we deserve.

Matt

From: Bob H in NH
09-Oct-17
It cost the taxpayers the same as it would have had he not walked out, so in effect: nothing.

What did it gain? It reinforced the point the administration, and many others, are trying to make, that the message of the protest is unacceptable.

From: Franzen
09-Oct-17
Spot on Bob. Had he intended to attend the game simply so that he could walk out if a player knelt, then GG may be on to something.

From: Solo
09-Oct-17
Yeah!!! How refreshing it is to see an administration take a public stand for our nation..... You ought to think this thru further, GG, sheeesh.

Even if it somehow cost more money for the Honorable VP Pence to skip the $10 coldhotdogs and walk out hours early, it was the best investment of its kind that ANY Vice President has made in better than a decade.

From: JLS
09-Oct-17
If he felt he wanted to or needed to make the point, great. It's his choice. I'm sure he had a pretty good idea in advance it would happen, so if Pence thinks that's money well spent, his choice.

It's still avoiding the underlying issue of at least pretending this administration cares about addressing or discussing any real or perceived issues of racial inequality. The Trump administration is spending an awful lot of time on asserting this is a disrespectful act, without overtly acknowledging the reasoning behind the act in the first place.

Isn't it somewhat contradictory to tell a group of largely non-military folks their actions are disrespectful to the military, while seemingly refusing to acknowledge a racial minority group feels like they have not achieved equality in America?

From: Woods Walker
09-Oct-17
If they haven't achieved equality by this time it's THEIR fault. How much more more money and other freebies do they have to get before that sinks in??? How much more drugs and crime infested neighborhoods do they have to have before they say "ENOUGH"!!! and start cleaning their OWN house? How many kids does a man have to sire and then walk away from before they figure out that's NOT how you raise functional children?

Until they stop blaming others for their own bad life choices, then they will continue to be what they are. If that makes me racist then so be it. But it's the truth.

From: keepemsharp
09-Oct-17
Blaming someone else? Sounds like a Clinton.

From: elkmtngear
09-Oct-17
Pence is a true Patriot, and is rightly disgusted by Anti-Patriotic demonstrations. Doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that "plays games" for media attention.

From: Gray Ghost
09-Oct-17
"It cost the taxpayers the same as it would have had he not walked out, so in effect: nothing."

How about if he chose NOT to attend a football game on the taxpayers dime to begin with, and instead stayed in DC and worked on pushing the agenda he was elected for?

"...that the message of the protest is unacceptable."

Is it the message or the method of protest the administration is objecting to? I haven't heard them address the message.

Matt

From: Rocky
09-Oct-17
GG, Give this a try. Attempt to think past your door knob and I guarantee it will serve you well in life. The kneeling you are witnessing is a microcosm of the seething hatred for white America being played out across this nation, relegated not only to football fields but alleys of the city and winding lanes of the country. We are presently in the throes of a civil war and your inability to see it, less obvious requiring blood on your hands, is a testament to your blind eye. These players are not kneeling in deference only to the flag, but deference to white America that this flag represents and to encourage separation for the "oppressed". To believe or HOPE otherwise is ludicrous and cowardly dangerous to this nation in the hoary belief that to "bomb someone who despises you with love" will fill their heart with forgiveness and reciprocating emotions. This strategy may work well and jerk a tear on the silver screen but is quickly dismissed as fantasy land in the real world, at least to those with two eyes open. A one step hop to the gallows should these acts continue.

The Rock

From: Glunt@work
09-Oct-17
Of course this was a politic stunt. Thats what politicians do. That doesn't mean it sent a bad message.

As for addressing whatever it is they are protesting (I hate to be dismissive but they have done a poor job of stating their case and what they want done to change things), an insult is a poor choice of ways to start a conversation with the guy you want help from.

From: Gray Ghost
09-Oct-17
The Rock,

I pretty much ignore your posts, when you get into your Samuel L. Clemens routine, but I will comment on your last one.

First, I simply don't see this so-called "seething hatred for white America" that you speak of. The blacks and other minorities I've spoke with are just as offended by the anthem kneeling as you and I are. These idiot athletes aren't a microcosm of anything but their own bloated egos and sense of importance.

Our flag doesn't just represent "white America" as you wrote. It represents all Americans, even those who disrespect it by kneeling. This whole thing will continue wash out in the court of public opinion, as most of it already has. Implying that it's the start of civil war is laughable, even for a drama queen like you.

The Matt

From: Shuteye
09-Oct-17
I think it was a great move. I have't heard Russia, Russia, Russia in days. Trump is playing chess while the media plays checkers.

From: JLS
09-Oct-17
"If they haven't achieved equality by this time it's THEIR fault. How much more more money and other freebies do they have to get before that sinks in??? How much more drugs and crime infested neighborhoods do they have to have before they say "ENOUGH"!!! and start cleaning their OWN house? How many kids does a man have to sire and then walk away from before they figure out that's NOT how you raise functional children?"

WW,

I won't disagree with you one iota there are cultural and societal issues black people need to address, no different than other racial groups. True leadership is not telling one faction their issues are non-existent and/or avoiding them, or changing the subject. True leaders bring them to the table and simply ask the questions "what is the problem and what would you like to be different?" It doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem, or if there is one it is easily remedied.

If DJT can form a committee to examine the issue of voter fraud, I would certainly think he can form a committee to examine racial equality in the US. I'm not in any way suggesting DJT can solve the current racial tensions, but he can certainly start the process.

From: Woods Walker
09-Oct-17
No one or thing can GIVE you equality, you have to earn it. What they DON'T need is another "committee". All that does is dole out and waste taxpayer money as a vote buyer for the politicians. You want a helping hand? Great. Just look on the end of your arm.

From: JLS
09-Oct-17
By putting the onus solely on other racial groups (i.e. want a helping hand, look at the end of your arm), and failing to acknowledge the issue and/or take part in the discussion of exactly what racial inequalities are perceived/do exist, you are simply exacerbating the problem.

I'm not suggesting it's my or your responsibility to change someone else's circumstance, but if I refuse to recognize issues may or do exist, I've become part of the problem. President Trump represents all Americans, and has the responsibility and obligation to listen to issues presented to him. Our government has stated all people should be treated equally without discrimination per federal law. It would be no different than me being upset at my local law enforcement for not ensuring laws were being followed and telling me to fix it myself.

Instead of focusing on WHY the players were kneeling and addressing the underlying issue, DJT has masterfully morphed this into a cultural battle where he can avoid the underlying issue. That's not true leadership. Like it our not, democracy is a collaborative process and our President seems to have forgotten that.

From: Bowbender
09-Oct-17
JLS,

"...while seemingly refusing to acknowledge a racial minority group feels like they have not achieved equality in America?"

Multi-millionaire athletes and they haven't achieved "equality"? ****ing crack me up!! Instead of taking a knee, do something quietly with all the $$$$ to make the world a better place.

From: Rocky
09-Oct-17
GG, Thinking is not your strong point and to prove that I would believe you would agree. Steer clear of the passing lane or get out of the way. Remain content and do not venture outside of your sphere of influence, which has long ago reached its zenith. Now don't take this personal. I am trying to help you navigate your blindfolded self inflicted devised mine field. To summarize: Continue to lollygag through the daises of life through rose colored glasses. btw...you make me laugh attempting a feeble try at literature. Samuel Clemens was a virtual unknown without his pen name.

The Rock

From: Glunt@work
09-Oct-17
Trump has too many faults to list but I'm fine with how he's handling this.

"Hey! Bob why are you crapping on my lawn?!"

"Oh, hey neighbor. Just wanted to get your attention. My trees have more aphids than most in the neighborhood and I wanted your help putting the word out to find a solution at the HOA meeting."

"You could have just asked. I noticed the aphids but also noticed I never see you spray for them"

"I think someone brought aphids in when they landscaped but anyway, will you help"

"Ahhh...no, I am going but have a different issue"

"Whats that?"

"You crapping my yard"

"I told you it was just to get your attention!?"

"Well, it did."

From: JLS
09-Oct-17

JLS's Link
Bowbender,

I am not saying the multi-millionaire athletes haven't achieved equality, and I don't think they are either. Kapearnick's initial protest was a poorly laid out protest of police brutality. Some athletes are doing a great deal in their communities, very quietly. The attached link details some of the work NFL players are doing in their communities.

From: JTV
09-Oct-17
Nothing makes my day than watching these azzhat libs/vultures (yea, you know who I mean) puking all over themselves because Pence stood and then walked out AFTER the anthem as a sign of protest.... these "people" that call themselves football players are the ones that started this... they are the ones acting like little cry babies .... and now the left is upset.... awww, poor wittle buttercups .... WAY TO GO MR. PENCE !! ....

From: JLS
09-Oct-17
Also, to clarify, I am not in any way suggesting we simply throw money at the problem. We've done that and it hasn't worked. I'd like to see our country take a hard look at things and re-evaluate our approach to racial equality.

Our nation would benefit from helping reduce and/or break the cultural trends that surround impoverished neighborhoods. I'm all for personal accountability and making good choices, but also realize kids from some of these families are simply doing what they've learned. Looking at ways to break the cycle would reduce burdens on our law enforcement agencies, court systems, social workers and put forth workers into the job force.

From: Gray Ghost
09-Oct-17
The Rock,

Is that all you got? Childish insults and a bloated sense of enlightenment? I'm not surprised, just a bit disappointed.

The Matt

09-Oct-17
After reading this, it is obvious why there is such an epidemic of ignorance and stupidity in this country.

I don't owe anyone anything. After looking at my tax forms for the last 30 years, I'm pretty dang sure someone owes me something though. I'm not a prejudice man either and, do not expect to be treated as if I owe anyone's childish emotions the notions it takes to even say "I hear You on that.".

70% of the NFL venue costs been funded on the tax payers dime. Welfare recipients are funded on the tax payers dime. EVERYTHING about what these people are supposedly protesting are only fathomable because of the tax payers dime. I'm sick of Americans pouting and saying look at me.

I was raised dirt poor. No TV, No soda, hand me down clothes, one pair of shoes, two pairs of pants per year. We ate when we had it and, worked hard to ensure we had something. I was made fun of by teachers for my clothes, my old shoes, etc..... I've been at the bottom and, while I'm not far from it now, I owe no one an apology for having what I have acquired. And, I'm tired of hearing entitled dimwits suggest I do.

If any person, of any color wants out of what they got, they have a choice. If they don't like to be treated like a thug by LEO's, perhaps they shouldn't act and dress like one. That goes for any race. And for goodness sake's, get off your friggin' knees protesting whatever injustice you feel like blaming today and, go to WORK and do something about your "oppression".

Minority's of race are NOT treated unfairly in this country by white America. We are paying for their continued way of life!!!!!!! Besides, the word minority no longer means anything unless it describes an American that works for a living. Screw race. This is just another liberal movement. t That's it. It isn't about injustice.

From: HA/KS
09-Oct-17
Teacher in-service for over 700 teachers today. The day started with "All who are able please stand for the National Anthem."

It was beautifully sang by a group 30-40 of teachers.

Followed by loud and enthusiastic applause.

From: HA/KS
09-Oct-17
"I don't owe anyone anything. "

Oh, yes, you do. There are many things that you tax dollars cannot purchase. They are not what the left thinks, but they are just as real and much more important.

09-Oct-17
What are these protests really accomplishing? These guys HAVE a tremendous platform to reach millions of people. They take a knee during the anthem on Sunday and then disappear the rest of the week. Why don't we see them all over the news, TALKING about what it is they would like to see happen. Or better yet, put a plan into action to go out into communities to make real change. If they TRULY wanted to make a difference they would use that platform in a constructive way. Why are they not using their wealth and fame to bring people to the table. They're not passionate enough about it, to do little more than kneel. Is that the best they've got? As for all the good they do, I know it exists in limited numbers. You gave a HANDFULL of examples, out of over 1600 players. And how many of them are donating to charities and starting foundations as tax breaks against the millions they are making? How many of their financial planners are behind these? Ask Nva what he would advise them to do. They could be doing so much more than taking a knee, IF THAT WAS TRULY THEIR MOTIVE. Ok, go ahead and attack me :)

From: tonyo6302
09-Oct-17
Nice post, Glunt.

. . .

. . .

You will probably have to illustrate it with cartoons for the left leaning and lefty progressives. They just won't get it.

JTV, on the spot, as usual. It is reported as political grandstanding by the VP, but not the NFL? Just who is the MSM fooling anymore?

From: JLS
09-Oct-17
sportoutfitter,

I'm not going to attack you, you have raised some legitimate questions. As to how many donate time and money? I have no idea. I posted a short list, I don't have the time nor inclination to look for more. I do know there are some lesser known players who do a lot of work in their communities without any fanfare.

As to financial motives for charitable foundations? I'm sure some donate with this in mind. I have no idea if there is a higher rate of benevolence and philanthropy within the NFL. I would guess it's probably relatively close to society as a whole. Could some do more? I'm sure they could. I imagine a lot of us could do more, myself included, if we are honest with ourselves.

And yes, you are entirely correct. I sincerely hope those players who are choosing to take a knee are doing much more than that outside of game days. I know some are, but I'm sure there are a good number who don't and certainly should.

As to whether taking a knee is the best way to bring attention to this? I personally don't think so FWIW. I view it similarly to the open carry confrontations that were very common a few years ago, a misguided way to bring attention to an issue.

From: tonyo6302
09-Oct-17
. . . . and as far as Blacks and equality goes, black Africans had absolutely ZERO respect for American Blacks in the '80s and '90s, per the experience of my fellow Marines in VMFP-3, when porting in Mombassa, Kenya, with the U.S.S. Midway.

.. ..

.. ...

The African Blacks back then had no respect because of the opportunity that America had to offer. They perceived American Blacks as handout leeches, refusing to work or fend for themselves, and stupid for not taking advantage of everything America had to offer. That came right out of the mouths of my fellow "Dark Green Marines" in my unit. Africans gave them the coldest of shoulders.

Alas, not having served since the '90s, or traveled to Africa, I am not up to date on how African Blacks perceive American Blacks.

. . . . but back in the day, it was not pretty . . . . . .

From: Whitey
09-Oct-17
WV very well stated and I agree 100%.

From: JTV
09-Oct-17
Tony... exactly... it was the POS players that brought this on themselves... they could easily stop with their idiocy .... the libs are trying to make this move by Pence as a political ploy ... but YET, it is the players who are bringing politics into it by their actions, or should I say inaction to honor this country...... as Ive said ... "To Hell with the NFL" ..

From: Rocky
09-Oct-17
Matt,

Now you are going to take me serious right? C'mon. GG, gets one response...Matt gets another. Take it easy. Samuel Clemens did bring a smile to my face though as he was required reading. ;-)

The Rock

09-Oct-17
can we now call pence a paid protester? What's the diff btw athletes publicly protesting at a game & Mike Pence publicly protesting at a game? The athletes protests cost you $0.

And while we're at it, Let's correct a popular stupidity about these players: If people died for your right to free speech, you disrespect them when you DON'T use it, not when you DO!

09-Oct-17
Henry, please explain what you meant with your last post.

From: Rocky
09-Oct-17
WV, Good read and heartfelt. I agree. tonyo, The same in Philadelphia today as it has always been with Africans and African Americans. I know two Africans brothers who came here with the essentials in 1989 and now own 16 residential properties and 2 apartment complexes. They despise American blacks. The difference is that they will say it to their face, face to face, in which I was caught off guard the first time I heard their tirade with that accent and 3 N. Philly wise ass jitterbugs. I told Bige, the older brother he had a set of balls on him. He smiled and said "I come from the real jungle". They are building a sizable furniture warehouse that will house only American made furniture, no Chinese, completely robotic storage on Roosevelt Blvd. in Greater N.E. Philly. Funny you mentioned that. Another thing I discovered long ago. Israeli's in America can't stand Jewish Americans. Stranger still to me.

The Rock

From: Fulldraw1972
09-Oct-17
I would like to know how there is racial inequality in the US? Is it because of the cops? Well like WV said. If they didn’t act like thugs they probably wouldn’t be treated like one. I learned at a young age that trying to be tuff to a cop didn’t work in my favor.

Is it jobs? There are lots of jobs out there. If they got out of the hood and learned a trade they could make a good living. I have worked construction my whole life. If I can work my way up the ladder threw hard work and learning anyone can.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for anyone that lives on welfare and won’t work.

Are there racists in this country. Yes there is. But how do you call out one race for being racists and not call out the ones in your own race.

From: HA/KS
09-Oct-17
WW, for one "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few" Edited: Should read WV If you actually think you owe nobody anything, you need to think more and talk less.

How have you repaid your mother?

From: Woods Walker
09-Oct-17
Blacks in America will never get anywhere if they continue to depend on someone else to give it to them. I just doesn't work that way. 50+ years of the welfare state is solid proof of that. It's been over 150 years since slavery was ended and a half a century since segregation was abolished. So instead of whining about it, just get off your ass and take some personal responsibilty and DO IT. Obama did it, and if he could do it just imagine how well an HONEST and TRUTHFUL black person would do!

From: Woods Walker
09-Oct-17
Henry: When did I say that??

From: HA/KS
09-Oct-17
WW, Typo on my part. It should read WV.

From: Woods Walker
09-Oct-17
HA! I figured that!

From: Rocky
09-Oct-17
I believe people are taking WV literally when he stated " does not owe anybody anything". Unless I misinterpreted his posts I believe he was referring to contributing to those who unappreciatively receive, and demand that sweat equity, and "working laboriously" without complaint or handout, which was the economic catalyst to his own individual success, no matter the measure. To that end I totally agree.

We are all indebted to this world connected one way or the other. I think we all know that is true and the aforementioned should not require explanation.

The Rock

From: Thumper
10-Oct-17
NFL is history, they just haven't come to terms with it yet. Just a matter of time.

Cowboys owner told his team if you can't stand and respect the flag you will sit the bench.

From: Bob H in NH
10-Oct-17
Pence was scheduled to attend this game a while ago, it's his home state and they were retiring Manning's jersey. I am sure he had thought through what would happen, I am also sure what he did was better than not going at all. It sends a message.

As for addressing the message the players are sending. Which message? The one they are TRYING to send, or the one they ARE sending? They aren't the same. All focus has been taken OFF what they are trying to do and put on a different message. Time to change tacts and take the steam out of the entire anthem issue.

From: freeglee
10-Oct-17
trump is the Cheetoe and pense is the Dip!!! Two peas in a POD!!!!

From: JTV
10-Oct-17
damn dude... your a friggin idiot pure and inbreed ... smh .... nothing but a punk ...

From: 70lbdraw
10-Oct-17
"trump is the Cheetoe and pense is the Dip!!! Two peas in a POD!!!!"

You racist!!! ...Wait til we start the "Orange lives matter" movement!

From: Woods Walker
10-Oct-17
He's an idiot and not worth responding to.

From: JTV
10-Oct-17
Freefruity is what happens when you ingest lead paint as a kid ..

10-Oct-17
LOL!

Pence did fine. He went for the jersey retirement before the game and would have stayed for the game had the players paid attention to their jobs and not their STUNTS.

From: Gray Ghost
10-Oct-17
"...paid attention to their jobs and not their STUNTS."

Funny. I was thinking the same thing about Pence.

I have no problem with politicians attending sporting events on their own time and dime. But, when our VP flies cross country with his entourage to a football game, then walks out in a orchestrated PR stunt without even watching the game, all on the taxpayer's dime, that pisses me off.

IMO, he's got bigger fish to fry...like health care, tax reform, a balanced budget, just to name a few.

Matt

10-Oct-17
Henry, why don't you leave the teaching lesson for class and learn to read in the context we are talking. Of all the people on this forum, you were the last one I thought that would literally jump at an opportunity to prove something that wasn't even implied. Don't do that. It is stupid and miles beneath you.

But, to clarify for you, I don't owe any one race, one person who feels oppressed, or any other dead beat that wants to insinuate that because I am a white male I am in a better position for being so, one SINGLE thing in the sense they imply. No apologies, no warm fuzzy feelings for their "hardships", NOTHING. Are we clear now?

From: Bentstick81
10-Oct-17
I agree Spike Bull. Good for Pence.

From: longbeard
10-Oct-17
By the GG it costs our government millions of $$ each year to send military personal to each game to use as a puppet for their half time and pre-game shows. For what? Just to be disrespected by the kneeling players? Maybe its time to shut that part of the program down also

From: Gray Ghost
10-Oct-17
Long beard, got any proof of your claim of "millions?" I doubt you do. But I do agree with the gist of your post. Leave the military out of the entertainment business.

Our politicians, and to some degree our military, are public servants. I don't want my tax dollars spent this way.

And we wonder why are national debt is so high......

Matt

From: Fulldraw1972
10-Oct-17

Fulldraw1972's Link
I am curious what kind of tax breaks the NFL actually gets.

From: Whitey
10-Oct-17
70% of the stadiums are funded by state and local taxes. Cities and states also give incentives to the teams to stay . Lots of research lately shows that cities and states would be better off if the companies left. It’s popular news hear because of Amazon shopping for HQ2. States will get into a bidding frenzy to have them locate and end up losing in the long term, Amazon wins bigly. It helps the local officals on their election campaigns too!

10-Oct-17
I don't know about technical tax breaks per say but, I heard on FOX day before yesterday that many of the venue costs have been 70% subsidized by the tax dollar. It would be interesting to know the extent in which they get rewarded with tax breaks though. Might do a little more for opening some eyes. God Bless

From: Woods Walker
10-Oct-17
They must have gotten Gooddell's attention$ because he's starting to change his tune.

People go to football games to be entertained, NOT lectured to by athletic carnies. Save that sh*t for your own time.

From: JTV
10-Oct-17

JTV's Link
the NFL is slowly caving ... and ESPN/Monday Night Football has its lowest ratings ...

11-Oct-17

Spike Bull 's Link
Even CommiEfornia doesnt like it.

From: Woods Walker
11-Oct-17
My mother in law is a diehard Packers fan, like in "never miss a game" diehard fan. She shut them off 3 weeks ago. She's the one who's brother is buried at Arlington who's plane crashed while he was serving. And she's not the only one.

From: Gray Ghost
11-Oct-17
Here's a thought. How about they omit the national anthem from entertainment events all together? I don't watch football to bolster my patriotism, anyway. And I certainly don't watch to get my political cues from overpaid and under-educated entertainers.

What does the song that symbolizes our war for independence have to do with entertainment, anyway? Do you sing the national anthem every time you watch a movie?

Wouldn't that at least solve the damn kneeling issue, and force those players who are dedicated to their cause to find a different method of protest and way to send their message?

Matt

11-Oct-17
We have an all volunteer service so the military has set aside moneis to advertise for recruits. If they payed the NFL to do some advertising for them, so be it. The military also uses commercials on TV, magazines, etc. The NFL's own rules demand that players stand up on the field for the anthem so when anyone takes a knee or any other kind of protest such as unauthorized uniform attachments, helmet stickers, etc., they can be diciplined for that, up to and including losing their job.

The only problem I see here is that the team owners and managers seem to have been encouraging their players to break the league rules and the league bussiness agreements with advertisers like the US Military.

From: Woods Walker
11-Oct-17
Exactly spike, which tells me that the NFL then AGREES with the disrespect shown to the people who died for this country. How else can you see it?? Either that or they are afraid of their own players. So they need to pick a side.....America, or the America haters?

There's no middle ground.

From: Gray Ghost
11-Oct-17
From my reading it's not clear the NFL rules require standing during the anthem. There are 2 versions floating around the web, one says it's required , the other doesn't mention it. Has the NFL formally announced which one is official?

Besides, those rules aren't absolute. It's a GAME for God's sake. Rules are changed constantly. How about a rule omitting the playing of the anthem? I'd favor that.

Football doesn't symbolize anything about our great country, other than the freedom to play and watch a violent and dangerous sport, often played by men gifted with more physical abilities than cognitive. So why play the anthem?

I watch football because I enjoyed playing it, and I appreciate watching athletes who play it at a level I could only dream of. That's it. Football isn't a symbol of national pride for me. In some ways quite the opposite, like the egotism, silly celebrations, and all too frequent lack of sportsmanship. So why play the anthem? In some ways it's disrespectful to what the anthem symbolizes, anyway.

Just my 2 pennies and a pocket full of lint,

Matt

11-Oct-17
Itis a game, but these guys get payed MILLIONS of dollars to play it. Their terms of employment are not insignificant!!!!

Seems heavy on the lint, my friend.

From: Glunt@work
11-Oct-17
The NFL has traded on patriotism for many years. Its completely logical that offending patriotic fans will result in blow back.

From a business standpoint, if they don't want to stop employees from insulting customers, removing the anthem would be better than continuing this. That decision would come with its own downside but it would be an improvement until players start expressing political messages some other way during games.

From: Gray Ghost
11-Oct-17
What does the amount of money they are paid have to do with anything? They are paid what the free market says they are worth. It seems you are making an argument against capitalism, Spikey.

Again, the terms of the player's employment can and do change all the time. They are as significant as the employers choose to make them. There's that freedom thing, again, that you seem to be arguing against.

Matt

From: bigswivle
11-Oct-17
"if they don't want to stop employees from insulting customers, removing the anthem would be better than continuing this"

I feel like this would probably be met with more blow back than a few idiots taking a knee. Sports just suck in general when they become political.

From: sleepyhunter
11-Oct-17
It's more of a business than a game. Each team is owned separately. You're getting paid to play football that's all the owner cares about. Every business has rules of conduct. Break the rules you can get fired or suspended. Your employer has the right to tell you how to act when he's paying you to do a job. The NFLPA has said it's going to fight Jerry Jones on ordering his players to stand for the Anthem. They're wasting their time. They don't have a leg to stand on. It's Jones team.

From: Tiger eye
11-Oct-17
And the NFL today has issued a " Thou shalt stand for the anthem" commandment. Seem the owners of the teams and the NFL itself have felt a little " free market" pressures as former fans found better things to do with their time and money. Advertisers followed suit.

From: sleepyhunter
11-Oct-17
It will be interesting to see what happens when somebody doesn't stand. I'm confident Jones will be true to his word about benching people. I'm not familiar enough with other NFL Owners to know what they will do. Should make for some good drama if somebody defies the order.

11-Oct-17
Hahahahaaa!!

Pretty weak, GG!

Well, GG, you seem to have trouble linking the information contained in one sentence to the sentances that follow it so let me explain.

People who get paid by their employer MILLIONS of dollars a year usually have far more well defined rules, and a lot more to lose, than those people who work for two or even three digit salaries, that is what the money has to do with it!

And this is all about freedom! The players are absolutely free to quit and go stock shelves at the market anytime they want! They are free to do whatever they are allowed to do by their contract (whether they are at work or not, because they usually do have OFF work hours restrictions to protect their health and therefore the teams investment), and they are free to pay the penalty when their "owner" decides to enforce the terms of their contract!

You are a smart man, GG, why you say these silly things occasionally and then fight for them is beyond me.

From: Gray Ghost
11-Oct-17
"People who get paid by their employer MILLIONS of dollars a year usually have far more well defined rules, and a lot more to lose, than those people who work for two or even three digit salaries, that is what the money has to do with it!"

I disagree. People who are paid millions usually have demonstrated they are worth it. Therefore, they have more autonomy to pick and choose their employer and define their terms of employment. Not so much for a burger-flipper.

"And this is all about freedom!"

I'm glad to see we agree on that. Those freedoms Include your choice to watch and support the NFL, or not. If enough people choose the latter, the NFL market will adjust accordingly. I'll still be watching for the reasons I stated earlier. Heck, I may even attend more games if they become more affordable...those $170 ticket prices and $8 beers are kinda hard to swallow.

Matt

From: HA/KS
11-Oct-17
WV, I was not disagreeing with your thinking. When I wrote "They are not what the left thinks," I was making sure that you knew that I agreed that we do not owe in the ways the left wants us to feel guilty about.

However, we do all owe much to many for many different reasons, but not the reasons promulgated by the left.

From: HA/KS
11-Oct-17
Hypocrisy is……..

In 2012, the NFL had an issue with Tim Tebow kneeling for each game to pray, they also had an issue with Tebow wearing John 3:16 as part of his blackout to avoid glare and made him take it off.

In 2013, the NFL fined Brandon Marshall for wearing green cleats to raise awareness for people with mental health disorders.

In 2014, Robert Griffin III (RG3) entered a post-game press conference wearing a shirt that said "Know Jesus Know Peace" but was forced to turn it inside out by an NFL uniform inspector before speaking at the podium.

In 2015, DeAngelo Williams was fined for wearing "Find the Cure" eye black for breast cancer awareness.

In 2015, William Gay was fined for wearing purple cleats to raise awareness for domestic violence. (not that the NFL has a domestic violence problem…)

In 2016, the NFL prevented the Dallas Cowboys from wearing a decal on their helmet in honor of 5 Dallas Police officers killed in the line of duty.

In 2016, the NFL threatened to fine players who wanted to wear cleats to commemorate the 15th anniversary of 9/11.

So tell me again how the NFL supports free speech and expression all of a sudden....

From: Gray Ghost
11-Oct-17
"So tell me again how the NFL supports free speech and expression all of a sudden...."

So what's your point, Henry? Should the NFL allow all those freedoms of speech and expression, or not, in your opinion? Should there be a line? If so, where should the line be drawn?

IMO, politics and special interests has no place in sports. So, none of those things you listed should be allowed by the league and owners. For that matter, I don't think displays, or protests, of national pride have any place in sports.

Do I think the NFL and owners will strive to make that happen? They will, unless they want to continue to bite the hand that feeds them.

Matt

11-Oct-17
Henry, I knew what you meant which is why I typed what I did. Which, in hind sight was something I should have stated in a nicer way. Forgive my haste and sharp tone. God Bless

From: Atheist
11-Oct-17
Jerry jones or the NFL cannot demand players stand. It's against the union and lawsuits will fly. Furthermore, what does Jerry do when his entire offensive line kneels? Bench them? Not likely. It's all publicity and will never succeed.

From: Glunt@work
11-Oct-17
"It's all publicity and will never succeed." Thats my guess regarding the protests, but hard to know what "succeed" means when no one really knows what they want to happen.

Raise awareness? Start a conversation? They did, just not about whatever they are protesting. They chose a poor platform and haven't defined what they are protesting or what solution they want.

From: JTV
11-Oct-17
'theist are you REALLY that ignorant/dense.. ... it is a private WORK PLACE you friggin idiot !! They can set the rules and if these prima donna's dont abide by the rules, they can be suspended or FIRED ... Free Speech ends at your employers door ... what part of this do you not understand... it has been explained time and again on here.... sheesh !!

From: sleepyhunter
11-Oct-17
""Jerry jones or the NFL cannot demand players stand. It's against the union and lawsuits will fly. ""

BS Atheist. Any Company with a Union or not can fire anyone for just and proper cause. In Jerry Jones case he could fire or bench anyone for disobeying a direct order.

From: Gray Ghost
11-Oct-17
"Free Speech ends at your employers door"

Umm...no it doesn't. At least not in this country. An employee has the right to free speech, not a job. He can "free speak" his way right out of a job, if he wants to.

Matt

From: bigswivle
11-Oct-17
Jerry is the owner of the Dallas cowboys, he can do whatever he wants. Just like any other business owner. The libs are going crazy over this because it has completely backfired.

From: Whitey
11-Oct-17
I don’t have any idea why people don’t get what free speech is.“Congress shall make no law...abridging freedom of speech.” It doesn’t say employer, it doesn’t say individual, it doesn’t say organization. You are only protected from the government infringing.

From: Woods Walker
11-Oct-17
"I don’t have any idea why people don’t get what free speech is."

Sure you do Whitey, it's called "STUPID"!

From: JTV
11-Oct-17
I should have said Government offers no protection of free speech in the workplace.... while you can say/do stupid stuff while there, there isnt a guarantee you cant be fired/suspended for doing so ..

No Constitutional Free Speech At Work

Employees don’t have a Constitutional right to free speech or freedom of expression at work. The Constitution’s right to free speech only applies when the government is trying to restrict it. Even then, it’s not absolute. There is no free speech in your house; ask your mom. And there is no legal right to free speech or expression at work. (If you work for the government, there is a special set of rules that apply.)

So employers are generally free to restrict employee speech, at least while they are at work.

11-Oct-17
Pretty sure that if unarmed black men and boys stopped getting shot by trigger happy cops, the protests would stop. Hell, in Denver Brandon Marshall (the linebacker - our leading tackler) stopped kneeling after the police revised their use of force guidelines. he felt like the DPD listened - they got the message last season.

The only folks that could truly be replaced in the NFL are the owners - bunch of old white dudes using other folks talents and taxpayers money to enrich themselves. The players and the fans make the league. The owners are parasites.

Also, every one of the arguments stressing that the owners "own" their "employees" during work hours is a really bad argument in this situation.

From: JTV
11-Oct-17
once again the lefthandedmasturbator is speaking out his ass about cops killing unarmed blacks... the times it has happened is miniscule, esp, when compared to blacks killing unarmed blacks.... with all the police, about 750,000 of them working full time, shootings like LHM's attempt to push with his narrative, very very very seldom happen... and that is a FACT !! .....and even if the person is unarmed, there are still legal reasons why deadly force may be required ..

From: Whitey
11-Oct-17
The Victim mentality doesn’t go away. You either have it or you don’t , other people’s actions are irrelevant. It was the not enough quarterbacks, then not enough coaches then it was the oscars , now it’s cops. Next year it will be someone else’s fault why they perform at the bottom of every category in society.

From: Woods Walker
11-Oct-17
Hey lefty....next time someone's breaks into your home, or steals your car, just call a gang banger instead of those trigger happy cops. I'm sure they'll be glad to help you.

Whitey: This is another example!

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-17
"So tell me again how the NFL supports free speech and expression all of a sudden.... "

Henry:

Everyone seems to be avoiding the elephant in the room here. The how and why is very simple...RACE.

None of those other things you mentioned would have a racial backlash if and when they were denied.

The NFL and team owners are (were) over a barrel, as are many private business in the US. Make no mistake, there isn't a team owner out there that actually supports these demonstrations, they just know that if they speak out against them, they will be immediately labeled "racist." I'm not as tough as some on the NFL or the team owners. In this age of political correctness, that tag is worse than death. It's racial extortion, plain and simple.

Donald Trump took the focus away from race and made it about patriotism. Not only that, but he took the heat for bringing it to a head. In my opinion, the NFL owes him a great debt of gratitude.

KPC

11-Oct-17
JTV, Other country's police kill far fewer of their citizens. American police are trigger happy; the numbers don't lie. Why don't other country's police gun down their citizens at the same rate?

Use of force guidelines need to change, and frankly our police need stop killing citizens. If a sheep dog kills sheep, you kill the dog. If a herd protection dog kills sheep and coyotes, you still kill the dog.

11-Oct-17
You are an idiot.

From: Woods Walker
11-Oct-17
Ya think that just maybe certain segments of the population should not commit crimes? And OBEY a command that a LEO gives them? That'd be a good start.

Maybe if those other countries had the hood rats that we do they'd be shooting them too. This sounds like the same crap they tell us about why Chicago's murder rate is so high.....it's the evil guns coming in from Indiana and down south where the laws are more lenient. What they fail to mention is that when those exact same guns wind up outside of Chicago the shooting rate is drasically lower. Maybe, just MAYBE it's a PEOPLE problem and not a gun problem?? Like the hood rats wouldn't kill each other anymore if they didn't have guns....riiiiiiiiiiight. And Obama never lied to us either.

From: JTV
11-Oct-17
LHM, your a friggin dolt.. really are a true inbred idiot... right up there with 'theist and Freefruity ....

From: JTV
11-Oct-17

JTV's Link
Lefty, read this and see how ignorant you sound when you say your crap .. see link

12-Oct-17
Come on, JTV!

You dont really think that LHCA will actually read the facts much less come back on here and acknowledge his ignorance and mend his ways do you!?

He shows up to throw a torch onto the pile and runs away because in that dark recess where his heart belongs he knows he is all wrong but cannot admit it!

12-Oct-17
Spike Bull, I don't read the National Review anymore. Since Buckley died, it's gone to shit. Piss poor choice of a source. Surprised you didn't cite an article from RT.

From: Gray Ghost
12-Oct-17

Gray Ghost's Link
The worm is turning......

"Everyone should stand" during the national anthem, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell wrote in a memo to all 32 teams, adding that the NFL will present a plan next week to help "move past this controversy."

This will be a non-story in a few weeks. True fans will forgive and forget. Those who don't weren't fans to begin with.

Matt

From: MT in MO
12-Oct-17
I haven't been a fan of the NFL since they were caught getting paid by the Pentagon for all that patriotism stuff they were putting out a few years ago. Then I decided to ignore them after they screwed over St. Louis. With the kneeling and all, it just confirmed my earlier choice to ignore the NFL. I have better things to do on Sunday anyway...

From: sleepyhunter
12-Oct-17
""Also, every one of the arguments stressing that the owners "own" their "employees" during work hours is a really bad argument in this situation.""

If you want to continue to be paid by your employer. He does own you. Your service is an asset to his company. This is simple logic LHDA. Go tell your Boss he is a stupid idiot to his face and see what happens. He won't care about your free speech when he fires you.

12-Oct-17
Oh, of course, lhca! Only the best for you, like msnbc and moveon.org!

Have at least one ball and answer the information presented!

12-Oct-17
"This will be a non-story in a few weeks. True fans will forgive and forget. Those who don't weren't fans to begin with.

Matt"

Patriot Americans wont forget. It has nothing to do with being a fan of football. However, it does have ever thing to do with being a fan of the USA

From: Gray Ghost
12-Oct-17
"Patriot Americans wont forget. It has nothing to do with being a fan of football. However, it does have ever thing to do with being a fan of the USA"

Are you implying football fans who remain so aren't patriotic Americans? Nonsense.

Or, are you suggesting a fan can't enjoy the sport and appreciate the physical talents of the players without sharing their political ideology? More nonsense.

It's entertainment. Do you agree with the politics of every actor in every movie you watch? I doubt it. So, why is football different?

Matt

13-Oct-17
I'm implying what I said. That to some Americans, compromising on their principles to further watch football, is not something they are willing to do. I never expected that to apply to you Matt. You have made it clear that you don't posses such feelings. However, not everyone shares that lack of conviction. If saying that out loud makes you defensive, look in the mirror for the reason why.

13-Oct-17
And, yes Matt, I will not watch a movie starring anyone who blatantly disregards the respect our country and, National Anthem deserves. I realize you didn't say disrespecting the country and anthem. But, I didn't feel like telling you how ridiculous it is to try and suggest an actors politics and, disrespecting the country as compatible situations. But, to show you I am consistent, I haven't watched a movie containing actors whom I know as lefties, in almost 12 years. I may not be cultured due to my lack of exposure but, I live by my creed. And, I'm happy with that.

From: Gray Ghost
13-Oct-17
I'm implying what I said. That to some Americans, compromising on their principles to further watch football, is not something they are willing to do. I never expected that to apply to you Matt. You have made it clear that you don't posses such feelings. However, not everyone shares that lack of conviction.

Conviction to what? My love of the game of football? You're right, I won't compromise on that. Especially not for a misplaced sense of patriotism.

I've made it clear, my passion for football has nothing to do with my national pride. I couldn't care less whether they play the national anthem before the games, or not. I see far more fans at games buying hot dogs and beers during the anthem than I do players kneeling. And I know damn well very few stand with your hands to their hearts at home every time the anthem is played. Does that mean those folks aren't patriots, either?

You're free to exercise your boycotts for whatever reasons you choose. Just don't expect me to share them. And don't imply I'm somehow less patriotic than you for not doing so.

Matt

From: sleepyhunter
13-Oct-17
""I couldn't care less whether they play the national anthem before the games, or not. ""

Another example of your poor behavior GG. You have zero respect for this country. You're no better than Antifa or BLM.

From: freeglee
13-Oct-17
Ignorance is BLISSS the Ignorant!!!

You Boys own this Crap!!!

13-Oct-17
Matt, I'll say whatever I want. It's the way I feel. You have spared no one of your personal opinions. So, I'll share how pathetic I think it is for someone to compromise their principles for their own pleasure. Like I said before, if that stings when I say it, there is a reason it does. It's ok if you don't agree but, demanding that I say what makes you feel good is not going to work.

From: Gray Ghost
13-Oct-17
That buzzing sound is my point flying over your head, WV.

My patriotic principles have nothing to do with football, or entertainment in general. If yours do, fine, I won't deny you that. But I also won't deny how pathetic I find that.

You can have the last word. Frankly, I'm rather bored with this discussion, anyway.

Have a great weekend.

Matt

13-Oct-17
Matt, there is nothing you can propose that is flying over my head. On the other hand, my refusal to agree that your willingness to deviate from principle, doesn't involve your desire to watch football, will simply be the talking point you used to leave the conversation.

Keep on watching professional football, bashing anything Trump, and doing what makes you happy. The same guys your supreme athlete's spit in the face of by acting like belligerent thugs when they refuse to acknowledge the courtesy our anthem and flag deserves, provided you that ability. Even if you are too engrossed with the NFL to acknowledge that.

From: slade
13-Oct-17
""Another example of your poor behavior GG. You have zero respect for this country. You're no better than Antifa or BLM.""

What do you expect from someone who does not vote.....

From: Mad dog
13-Oct-17
Effete snob....DON'T expect him stand and brawl. Mad Dog

14-Oct-17
Certainly not by himself!

From: JLS
14-Oct-17

JLS's Link
Interesting take from the Green Beret who has been involved in this from the beginning.

Matt,

In a few weeks, our president will have found some other issue to polarize the nation.

14-Oct-17
Always good to see another perspective, especially from that sphere of experience.

I think it is not so much Trumps divisiveness that stands out as it is the work of the anti-Trumpers, who are determined to stop Trump from disassembling their nice little cartels, by ANY means necessary.

From: tonyo6302
15-Oct-17
. . . . is it just me, or does anyone else see that Nate Boyer wants to reward Kaepernick for disrespecting the Flag and Anthem with a trip and a personal one on one talk with the President . . . . ?????

.. .

.. ..

Is that where we are at today? Disrespectful behavior leads to personal meetings with the Leader of the free world?

I think Kaepernick should apologize, and repent prior to rewards.

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