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In a place with so much security, so many of our top law enforcement available, what took 75 minutes? Is this the standard?
Leaving for a youth hunt in the morning, so won't have more to add to this. Just askin'
Too little info available to say. Appears to be a long time, but the shooting only lasted 10 minutes and ended before police were on that floor so it could be that spending an hour after arriving evacuating guests, waiting on backup/SWAT and preparing to breach the door made sense since the shooting had stopped. It appears it made no difference since even if they would have stormed the room immediately upon arriving it wouldn't have changed the outcome.
Must be a Truancy Officer.
Security guard shot 6 min before the mass shooting, then 10min of gunfire into the people at the consert. That's 16 min with out any return fire with police on property. UFB
Well........in the chaos of that unimaginable situation, and not knowing specifically where he (or them.....for all they knew then), and with all the people running around I can understand why they didn't shoot as they would want to be 100% sure of their target and a host of other things. I've been on a deer drive during gun season with 5 other hunters and when deer start moving I WILL NOT shoot unless I locate all the other guys (thank God for blaze orange!). And the stress level of a deer hunt isn't even on the map compared to something like the LV situation.
I obviously don't know all the particulars but whether or not the security guard was shot before or after the gunman fired on the crows isn't all that relevant to me in terms of when the door to the room was finally breeched.
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that there was a whole lot of securing of the area around the room prior to entering. As long as the shooting had stopped, how long it took to enter the room is irrelevant. Think about it. How did the LEOs that finally entered that room know that as soon they breeched that door, a bomb wouldn't have gone off that would have leveled half that hotel...or more.
I'm not sure I buy that. At Columbine, which is less than 3 miles from my home, they held back because of a fear of bombs, and the result was more deaths of the schoolkids.
Post Columbine, police tactics changed to require active engaging of the shooter immediately, rather than waiting. The LEO's had no way of knowing what else he might have been doing in the room, or setting up, etc......
Like I said, I don't know the answers BK. I'm sure every situation is different.
Some of the actual LEOs that entered the room were on 60 Minutes the other night and what they described, and why and when they did what they did, seemed to make perfect sense to me.
Either way, according to the reports that I heard, law enforcement was at the suspect's door within about 12 or 13 minutes from the time "the shooting" started. Whether the shooting started on the security guard or stopped on the security guard doesn't make much difference to me in terms of the response time.
With whats known, I would guess that a booby trap of some sort was considered a big possibility. If the guard knew he was drilling into the wall that would make a guy think he was rigging something. Turns out it was probably a camera but they likely didnt know that before entering.
That was the concern at Columbine, when they did find a few propane canisters, the sheriffs backed out. The after action report changed tactics, requiring the LEO's to go in, to prevent further loss of life.
That decision made national prominence in that time frame. I'm not suggesting the LV folks were necessarily wrong, but I am telling you of the change in tactics post-Columbine, at least here, and many other places.
I lived in Littleton then...heartbreaking.
"In a place with so much security, so many of our top law enforcement available, what took 75 minutes? Is this the standard?"
There is a report this morning that one of the shooter's homes was burglarized.....thru the front door.....while the police were investigating!! From where I sit, it appears that some serious mistakes and lapse of good judgement have been taken place from the very start of the investigation. Amazing.....
What is not amazing is the armchair quarterbacks that come out of the woodwork based on what they read in the media..... it's typical.......
What is really amazing is incompetent lying fbi agents (and others) that have a political agenda which supercedes honest reporting.
BB, 75 minutes, post the Columbine lessons, prompts a legitimate question.
What is 75 minutes ?? Like KPC said.... the 60 Minutes interview of the 3 Officers that hit the door said they were there within something like 12-14 minutes....
I've only been in one sort of similar situation. Nothing like this scale. Speaking with officers afterwards while writing everything I could down, it was surprising how much incorrect info they were working with throughout the ordeal. They had to sort through a lot of conflicting information.
This link was about the best timeline I have seen.
Police were on the floor below and coming up to the 32nd floor at 13 minutes (shooting still going on). And on his floor with the security guard pointing out his room about 18 minutes from when the first shots (9:59pm at the security guard) were fired. It was 6 minutes after the guard was first shot that the shooter targeted the concert, which lasted an estimated "nine to 11 minutes." They set the end of the shooting at 10:15pm. The shooting from start to end was roughly 16 min. Officers were outside his door by 10:24pm, 25 minutes after the first shots fired, 9 minutes after the last shots fired.
The officers did not rush the room and were in fact told to wait for SWAT as the shooting had stopped and they felt they had contain. They did secure and clear the floor of guests in the meantime. SWAT blew open the door an hour and 21 minutes from first shots fired. An hour and 5 minutes after the shooting had stopped.
Karma; All of the active shooter training since Columbine has focused on an active shooter or shooters entering a large building like a school and moving through the building killing people...... Having an active shooter in a tower of sorts is a shit sandwich and must have been a nightmare......For everyone involved.....
I'll agree on it being a mess. I'll also suggest that someone who will shoot at 22,000 people shouldn't be trusted to be doing nothing when silent, either.
No good choices. The question is what's the best under these facts, and I get they are making split second decisions. Proper doctrine is we learn from past events. As it turns out, things worked out okay by the waiting/delays this time. I'm in the "neutralize the damn threat immediately" camp and yes, I understand that's riskier than waiting for the SWAT team. But every minute he's capable of doing harm to others is a minute I don't want him to have.
I came to a pretty good scenario quite some time back. The officers did not need to go in because they knew why he stopped. He was dead./ I highly doubt by a self inflicted wound though. I saw a lady with what looked like a Remington bolt action taking very careful aim from behind a car. # 1 suspect in my book. BTW she was wearing a sheriff coat.
God bless, Steve
Spike Bull 's Link
I haven't heard anything about LE firing any rounds. A decent shooter with a rest and holding a conservative 2 MOA group at 400 yards means hitting within an 8" circle if using the muzzle flash as an aiming point. I have assumed that shooting at a suspect in a hotel full of guests from a distance probably kept anyone from returning fire.
I also don't quite understand why they didn't have a sniper take the guy out. I understand it was a minute or two before they located where the shooter was, but one of the cops that was there most certainly had an AR-15 in the trunk. As Glunt pointed out, hitting center-mass on a human target at 400 yds. is not a difficult shot for an experienced shooter.
The other thing I believe they should have done was to turn all the stage spotlights towards the hotel/shooter, which might have blinded the shooter from being able to see his targets, and at worst would have turned his attention to shooting out the lights and not shooting at people in the meantime.
But then, hindsight is always 20/20.
I get why. While he was shooting, it was utter chaos. If you're in the line of fire, it would not have been easy to set up for a shot with all the other stuff going on.
After he was done shooting, it may have been hard to see him in the room from below.
For sure. 400 yards in the dark with open sights on an AR.... I doubt there's many Departments in the US training with patrol rifles out past 100 yards. That is a shot for a sniper with a scoped rifle..... it may come out in the end that in the hour before they blew the door open that they were able to set up a sniper or 2 to cover the broken out windows....
To clarify.... pretty much all patrolmen carry ARs these days.... but Departments usually have a few trained snipers that shoot scoped bolt action rifles. They are usually a part of a SWAT team..... and may or may not be working when an incident happens....
Excatly, BIG BEAR.
If the bad guy was at all savvy he was not right in the window but back a ways, they did say he had platforms built, perhaps to get high enough to shoot from well back in the room, and he would have had the lights out in the room. This would make it hard for a regular patrolman on the ground (even with a 1-6 power scope) to shoot him from 400 yards away, even without the distractions and possible danger of/to the people running everywhere.
Most regular patrolmen only qualify once a year and most dont shoot much beyond that. Like BIG BEAR says, under 100 yards, calm and collected, probably good.
Remembering back to the Boston Marathon bombing, the regular patrolmen shot 400 rounds of 5.56 at the brothers in one square, only hit one brother once, and never hit the younger Tsarnev brother! In fact the younger brother killed the wounded older brother himself by running him over as he escaped in a car through the hail of lead!
Not trying to detract from the police, just pointing out that shat happens FAST!!! and most people do not maintain enough cool to overcome those VERY tough adverse conditions. This was akin to a firefight in Syria in which even our seasoned warriors can have problems.
Not to mention any Officers that were already on foot working at the event wouldn't have had their ARs with them.... the weapons would have been secure in their cars.... When the shooting started they would have been more concerned with helping people get to cover and helping injured people than getting back to the car to get the AR.....
What I saw was a Model 700 long action Remington which says 25.06,, 7mm Remington, 30.06 , 300 win mag. bolt action. It has been shown over and over on the news. Funny no one said anything about this possibility. However fact is he was dead and they did not worry about him opening fire again. So they did not go in. Only way they could have known he was dead is if a sniper took him out. Or a woman with a bolt action rifle. If you all are saying that the police set outside without knowing he was dead, Knowing that he had an auto weapon or multiple weapons and were taking a chance on him opening up even for a few seconds then I do not respect that police dept. I highly doubt they thought in any way that the shooter or shooters were alive. They were also very sure that there was only one shooter.
God bless, Steve
Pics of the dead shooter seemed to indicate that he shot himself suck starting a pistol......
I wonder??? Whatever happened to the shooter at the Bellagio? I wonder why the room numbers were edited out of the door pics. I wonder why we are not hearing about any of the people that were on the same floor? I wonder why the FBI agent in charge is the son in law of John Podesta? I wonder why there are so many reports of the shooting at the Bellagio but the press and the police are not even mentioning it even though the front doors were blown out and people at the bar threw themselves on the floor and there are multiple vidios of the lockdown following? I wonder why the sheriff has an earpiece with someone in it telling him what to say and monitering him? I wonder why street cams show no police activity until 11:07 , and no ambulances until after 2 am? I wonder why the police and FBI are continually revamping the story. I wonder why the body pic shows a setup rifle on a tripod over the leg of the shooter who supposedly shot himself in the mouth? I wonder why the Australians next door to the room report seeing multiple bodies and multiple shooters ? Lot to wonder about and I'm betting one 67 yr old alcholic did it all by himself when it all shakes out.
God bless, guys
There were screw-ups and that's real life. Same thing with the Orlando shooting, what about the time line there? He was still killing inside while the police we waiting to breach. That's going to happen when they wait for swat.
Once again it is proven that the police most likely won't be able to protect you no matter how brave or capable they are.
Hey, I'm back. Thanks for the laughs. Out here we have certain hunts designated for kids - "youth" hunts. Josh (my youngest) shot his first mule deer.
Just to give some perspective, my middle son is in training to be an EMT/firefighter. First responders are at the top of my list of noble professions. I respect LEO, Military, emergency room doctors and nurses - these people are the front line of life and death situations daily.
I have family on all ends of this from they guy who pulls you out of a burning car, to the person who preps you for life-saving surgery.
The one really bad thing that might come your way one day, that's their every day.
That said, I sure hope they knew he was dead at the 15-17 minute mark before making entrance, because a lot more damage could have come in the next hour if he was still shooting.