Carbon Express Arrows
The Universe Should Not Actually Exist
Community
Contributors to this thread:
gflight 25-Oct-17
HDE 25-Oct-17
Two Feathers 25-Oct-17
gflight 25-Oct-17
HDE 25-Oct-17
HA/KS 25-Oct-17
Atheist 25-Oct-17
HA/KS 25-Oct-17
HDE 25-Oct-17
TD 25-Oct-17
HA/KS 26-Oct-17
Rhody 26-Oct-17
Sixby 26-Oct-17
Squash 26-Oct-17
JTV 26-Oct-17
jjs 26-Oct-17
HDE 26-Oct-17
Owl 26-Oct-17
DL 26-Oct-17
Sixby 26-Oct-17
70lbdraw 27-Oct-17
MT in MO 27-Oct-17
HA/KS 27-Oct-17
Owl 27-Oct-17
Atheist 27-Oct-17
Bentstick81 27-Oct-17
HDE 27-Oct-17
sleepyhunter 27-Oct-17
Scar Finga 27-Oct-17
TD 27-Oct-17
Owl 28-Oct-17
70lbdraw 28-Oct-17
Sixby 29-Oct-17
Owl 29-Oct-17
Atheist 29-Oct-17
HDE 29-Oct-17
Owl 29-Oct-17
Owl 29-Oct-17
Atheist 29-Oct-17
Owl 29-Oct-17
HDE 29-Oct-17
BIG BEAR 29-Oct-17
Owl 29-Oct-17
Atheist 29-Oct-17
Owl 29-Oct-17
Pig Doc 29-Oct-17
Owl 29-Oct-17
Pig Doc 29-Oct-17
Ryan from Boone 29-Oct-17
HA/KS 29-Oct-17
Atheist 29-Oct-17
Owl 29-Oct-17
Owl 29-Oct-17
Two Feathers 29-Oct-17
Pig Doc 29-Oct-17
Pig Doc 29-Oct-17
HDE 29-Oct-17
Atheist 30-Oct-17
Owl 30-Oct-17
Pig Doc 30-Oct-17
HDE 30-Oct-17
bigeasygator 30-Oct-17
HDE 30-Oct-17
bigeasygator 30-Oct-17
Owl 30-Oct-17
Pig Doc 30-Oct-17
Pig Doc 30-Oct-17
Two Feathers 30-Oct-17
Owl 30-Oct-17
Pig Doc 30-Oct-17
HDE 30-Oct-17
Pig Doc 30-Oct-17
bigeasygator 30-Oct-17
Two Feathers 30-Oct-17
Pig Doc 30-Oct-17
Owl 30-Oct-17
Two Feathers 30-Oct-17
70lbdraw 30-Oct-17
HDE 30-Oct-17
Sixby 30-Oct-17
Two Feathers 30-Oct-17
Pig Doc 30-Oct-17
Bowbender 30-Oct-17
HDE 30-Oct-17
TD 30-Oct-17
Two Feathers 30-Oct-17
Owl 30-Oct-17
HDE 30-Oct-17
HA/KS 30-Oct-17
Pig Doc 30-Oct-17
Sixby 30-Oct-17
Owl 31-Oct-17
HA/KS 31-Oct-17
BIG BEAR 31-Oct-17
Owl 31-Oct-17
sleepyhunter 31-Oct-17
70lbdraw 31-Oct-17
HA/KS 31-Oct-17
sleepyhunter 31-Oct-17
Owl 31-Oct-17
Sixby 01-Nov-17
Two Feathers 02-Nov-17
From: gflight
25-Oct-17

gflight's Link
The universe as we know it should not exist, scientists working at CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, have said. After performing the most precise experiments on antiprotons that have ever been carried out, researchers have discovered a symmetry in nature that they say just shouldn’t be possible.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.......8^)

From: HDE
25-Oct-17
Are you saying God trumps science, or just understands and knows how to use it better...?

From: Two Feathers
25-Oct-17
And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. [Gen 1:4-31 KJV] 8^)

From: gflight
25-Oct-17
Yes....and....Yes

25-Oct-17
It is quite interesting actually. At the moment of creation for every billion particles of anti-matter created there was approximately 1 billion and 1 particles of matter created. The matter and anti-matter particles then came into contact and annihilated leaving only the small overage of 1 particle out of 2 billion that were initially created. All the matter in the universe today........all of the 2 trillion galaxies visible through our telescopes is what was left over after that initial matter/anti-matter annihilation. So far no one can answer why there was that 1 particle in a billion mismatch between matter and anti-matter at the instant of creation. Today only God knows the answer.....but I'm betting we get a pretty good idea of how it worked one of these days. I'm pretty sure God wants us trying to figure as much out as we can......after all it's just part of His design.

From: HDE
25-Oct-17
^^^ well said!

From: HA/KS
25-Oct-17

HA/KS's Link
An interesting read about physics and the Bible.

From: Atheist
25-Oct-17
Oh fer crying out loud already. Are we in the dark ages?!

From: HA/KS
25-Oct-17
Some still are, and some have seen the light. It is a choice we each get to make. I pray that everyone sees the light before it is too late for them.

From: HDE
25-Oct-17
"Oh fer crying out loud already. Are we in the dark ages?!"

Religion is at least as old as the recorded history of man. Sad to be you...

From: TD
25-Oct-17
He has his Gods. It's sad that his chosen Gods of government and human secularism are doomed to be catastrophic failures...... over and over.....the mind has no concept of timeless and ageless..... but to form a religion of arrogance, ego and elitism.....

From: HA/KS
26-Oct-17
This quote (I don't know the source) seems to apply. "all are influenced, all follow, all serve something - they just don’t admit it"

From: Rhody
26-Oct-17
I find this idea very interesting. I know several people who are bonafide 180+ math geniuse's that are chasing mathematical theorem that represents the God Particle. Getting them to explain in more layman's terms... Well, challenging.

It's the age old question. Where did we come from, where are we going as spiritual beings.

I'm breaking this down to 3 view points.

1 Faith, a belief that something is based upon scripture.

2 gnosticism, self knowledge of your own spiritual reality, not of a particular religiosity.

3 science looking for the God Particle to explain this

I'm in agreement that God gave us this universe to play in. He gave us a body to host our spirit/soul to experience it and discover what makes it tick.

Because we are formless spiritual beings inhabiting this current incarnation of humanity, it seems to me that as a spiritual being, you and I are immortal through God's design regardless what religiosity one ascribes to.

Back to the article. CERN may be looking to find the origins of the universe, I believe that they've looking at military applications without blowing big holes in this world.

The universe is not necessarily a friendly place. As a race, we have the penchant to survive at all costs. Which is why I believe CERN was created.

From: Sixby
26-Oct-17
HDE:Are you saying God trumps science, or just understands and knows how to use it better

Sooooooo, In continuation of HDEs post I add .You are so intelligent that you have brought the supernatural God of the creation down to the level of his creation. It explains why so called science cannot explain it. God is supernatural. Look the meaning of supernatural up. Above nature, Outside of explanation. God has the power to speak into existence. God is the way, truth and life. He is Alpha and Omega. When you comprehend this come back and we can talk real science because Yahweh is the ultimate mathmatician and the creator of true science which is truth and reality , not theory or so called science which is subject to constant change. God bless, Steve

From: Squash
26-Oct-17
My take on the original post, is, that these are the same scientist, that claim global warming/climate change is settled science. Now they claim the universe shouldn't exsist ? Is this settled science as well ?

From: JTV
26-Oct-17
No, not in the dark ages... but it must suck to be you 'Theist, being in the dark all the time ..

From: jjs
26-Oct-17
If I have to explain it you wouldn't understand it anyway, said the believer to the atheist.

From: HDE
26-Oct-17
The laws of math and science are absolute, from the beginning, and will remain forever. The power of God is intellegence, which means He understands math and science in such a way that He can use these laws to fulfill His purpose.

Math and science DO NOT dictate what God can and cannot do because he knows what he can do. If you ever want to be like Him, you must first learn of Him. When you learn of Him, you will honor Him, and one day you may become like Him.

Once again, the atheist loses...

From: Owl
26-Oct-17
Atheist, research the fine tuned universe theory. We cannot exist without a deliberate and intelligent force. Science proves God.

From: DL
26-Oct-17
Haven’t any of you watched the Matrix? It doesn’t exist. ??

From: Sixby
26-Oct-17
Matrix is a very lame though entertaining attempt by Hollywood to show how they view God. The puppet -master instead of the loving creator.

God bless, Steve

From: 70lbdraw
27-Oct-17
I'm curious...If there is other life within our universe, do we assume they recognize a God, or Gods the way we do on earth? Or do we accept their religion regardless of its potential difference to ours?

From: MT in MO
27-Oct-17
Religion is man made. I presume any intelligent life will have their own version of religion. If the religion is not harmful to me, I don't care how anyone, human or otherwise, worships God...

From: HA/KS
27-Oct-17
Religion is man-made and faulty. Fortunately, God is neither.

From: Owl
27-Oct-17
MT , ultimately, it matters a great deal how (and which) God is worshipped. Much the same as it matters how we acknowledge and observe truth. Not that we have any means of advocacy beyond our personal influence but, it matters nonetheless.

From: Atheist
27-Oct-17
Until scientific data proves otherwise, a god was created to keep man in check, to give hope to the hopeless peasants and to enrich the 1st estate. It's worked so well that it's remained through the ages. The churches reap the rewards. Financially. The poor remain hopeful in a heaven and riches and wealth and eternal happiness. The evil, well they're evil so they are taunted with "you're going to rot in hell and damnation,,,,". Like they care!

From: Bentstick81
27-Oct-17
atheist. You are a complete idiot.

27-Oct-17
I think you are getting God and religion confused Atheist.

From: HDE
27-Oct-17
So, let's consider this: A world renowned cardiac surgeon has said that you can purposefully, and safely, stop the heart and restart it to perform delicate surgery by changing the ratio of sodium and potassium in the blood. If God did not exist, and God does not use science to fulfill His purpose, how can random evolution cause something as predictable as this natural, biochemical, and physiological phenomena?

The floor is open...

From: sleepyhunter
27-Oct-17
""Until scientific data proves otherwise, a god was created to keep man in check,""

Best place to start is reading the Bible. It will answer all your questions.

From: Scar Finga
27-Oct-17
I met a gentleman, that spoke at a Calvary Chapel I went to. He is actually one of the worlds brightest and well thought of scientists. He said that during the 60's or 70's (I forget which) the US government funded him and 9 other scientist (some of the smartest people on earth) to determine if God was real and how life began. When the study began, all 10 where either atheist or agnostic. At the end of the study he said that 7 out of 10 had became born again Christians, two that were atheist become agnostic, and only one remained atheist. Out of the 9 that changed there view point, THEY ALL AGREED that life was created by a superior being. I wish I could remember his name, Like I said, he spoke at a Calvary Chapel I went to, and was a guest speaker. This was probably 20 years ago or so, but if I recall correctly, he worked for NASA for several year and was a Nuclear Physicist. At the end of his sermon, he flatly stated that anyone that does not believe in an all powerful and knowing God is truly blind!

So I ask a simple question, how can anyone walk outside and view all of the worlds wonders and beauty and not believe? I think it's pride, they would rather believe a giant space fart caused evolution to kick start, then believe in a being that is all powerful. It's funny, I have had people call me weak because I believe in God/ Christ... They say I need a comforter or a crutch. I say they are weak and prideful for not acknowledging that we have a creator and a Savior.

God Bless gentlemen!

From: TD
27-Oct-17
What Atheist just described perfectly was his very own secular humanist..... government......

From: Owl
28-Oct-17
Atheist, damnation is a choice, fair treatment from God and a logical extension for and of the existence of evil. Makes perfect sense.

The best explanation I heard of damnation came from Frank Turek. He essentially said God is not an uber-maniacal stalker. He won't FORCE anyone to love Him. You're already settling for less than His peace and the gifts of His Spirit in this existence. Why do you expect a different outcome in the one to come?

From: 70lbdraw
28-Oct-17
"He essentially said God is not an uber-maniacal stalker. He won't FORCE anyone to love Him."

But if you don't...you'll suffer Hell and damnation for all of eternity. But don't worry, you'll be dead, it'll go quickly!

From: Sixby
29-Oct-17
Actually we were created by YHWH , YahWeh , in His image and therefore we are self determining and we are also eternal beings. Therefore we make a decision whether or not we wish to spend this eternal life in the presence and blessing of our Creator or in outer darkness. If we choose darkness over light, flesh over spirit, sin over holiness, Satan over Yeshua who is the Word of God and the Light of the World then we are self determining an eternal life in outer darkness. Light and darkness, good and evil, its our self determination as to what we want. Personally I was in complete darkness and I determined what was good and bad and probably chose on a 50/50 ratio one over the other., In otherwards, doubleminded. I made a decision. I would really try to find out if God was real. I did and when I took that one step toward God < He took a step toward me . I found out in 1970 that God was really, really, real. I have never doubted that since then. Here is the thing. God is not a respector of persons. He does not love me more than anyone else. He gives us all the means to approach Him and find Him. Its then our decision and none of us will stand or kneel before Him and be able to justify our sinfulness. That is what Jesus, Yahshua came here for us. He is the light , He is the Way,. He is the Truth , He is the Life, Only He can prove that and what happened to those scientists has happened to many , In fact it has happened to all who sought the truth .

God bless, Steve

From: Owl
29-Oct-17
70lbdraw, you are having an elemental struggle. You want to reject God and exploit His grace eternally. Would you live with an ISIS cell in your kids' room? That is essentially what you are proposing.

Now, clearly, God extends an enormous amount of grace. He specifically calls out the "prodigals" amongst us. But, remember, prodigals do come home.

From: Atheist
29-Oct-17
God extends an enormous amount of grace huh? Tell that to the parents of a child dying of cancer. Tell that to a child being kidnapped with horrifying things being done to them. Save it. If there was a benevolent and all knowing god, why inflict that on innocent children? Spend a little time in a children's hospital ward and you'll question everything you know about god.

From: HDE
29-Oct-17
Here is wear shortsightedness, again, keeps certain people from seeing the big picture. Is it heart wrenching to see a 6 yr old fighting cancer. You bet it is and one of my fears is to have that happen in our household. But as tough as it is to endure, because of the eternal plan, nothing is put in our way we cannot overcome. God knows that, and talk about a benevolent and eternal Father to help us grow and become more like him then to put trials in our lives He knows we can overcome.

To say the vice is simply self centered and arrogant. As far as watching horrible things happen to your kids, try letting your only begotten suffer for the world and then be crucified (very horrible way to die), stepping back and letting it happen when it could have been stopped, because of the the greatness it will achieve for mankind.

From: Owl
29-Oct-17
Physical degradation -even at a young age- is the wage of a physical existence. That's just the way it is. However, the physical world is not even a blink of an eye to eternity. And evil is the wage of free will. In both the theological and philosophical sense, evil is the price of love. That sucks but it is true.

No one needs to visit a children's hospital to have intimate contact with suffering, BTW. I can testify to that. As most anyone can. But, inasmuch as you brought children in as an example, ask anyone of the parents who have lost a child if they wish the child had never been born or brought into their lives. I'm willing to bet that, to a person, they would knowingly endure the suffering for the gift. Perspective. And your perspective, Atheist, seems to be a glass half empty. That's a spiritual deficit but it did not have to be so forever.

From: Owl
29-Oct-17
Also, Atheist, your indignation about the suffering of children is proof of God. I say that because you are making a judgement based on what is morally right and wrong. There can be no judgement of moral right and wrong without objective moral truth and objective moral truth cannot exist without God. So, in a left-handed fashion, you are proclaiming the existence of God.

From: Atheist
29-Oct-17
So morality can't exist without a god? It takes a god to know right and wrong? Ridiculous. Animals know right from wrong. Do they do so because of a god? Rubbish.

From: Owl
29-Oct-17
Without God, "right and wrong" is only matter of opinion.

Animals murder their young for the ability to procreate. Are you saying that is moral?? Odd argument.

From: HDE
29-Oct-17
Prove it to us scientifically that animals know right from wrong.

From: BIG BEAR
29-Oct-17
I don't want to enter this religious discussion other than to respond to the statement that animals know right from wrong..... I don't think animals have any concept of right or wrong.... they can be trained to do something or not to do something through reward and punishment.....

From: Owl
29-Oct-17
Animals don't have the capacity for morality. He's not even thinking, much less being rational. I doubt he even believes what he is spouting, just trolling. And that's fine because it gives us a venue to advocate. :)

From: Atheist
29-Oct-17
I'm w Bear. My dog knows not to knock the trash over. Maybe I'm not using the right analogy but regardless. I've seen more morals in atheists than sleezy televangelists. I've seen more moral leadership in Buddhists than catholic priests that molest kids.

From: Owl
29-Oct-17
I don't believe atheists can have morals; it is a self-negating worldview. Though, they can certainly model morality. As for bad actors of philosophy and theology, Stalin was just 1 atheist and he killed tens of millions. Of course, secular humanism in the US has killed over 53 million.

From: Pig Doc
29-Oct-17
And how many have died in the name of religion?

From: Owl
29-Oct-17
At least the ones I mentioned. After all, atheism is a theology and it's observance, in its many permutations, is is as liable for its actions as are other religions. While we are on comparisons, name a few dozen of the 10,000s of atheist homeless shelters, food banks, hospitals, etc.

From: Pig Doc
29-Oct-17
OK, I will rephrase. How many have died in the name of Christianity?

29-Oct-17
Some relevant history: in the 19th century, Mormons considered polygamy a moral imperative, while Catholics saw it as a mortal sin. More recently, several Anglican churches have revised their moral views to allow contraception, the ordination of women and the blessing of same-sex unions. And pig doc is correct, religion has been the cause of many unnecessary wars and deaths. I'd not be so quick to denounce atheism or secularism

From: HA/KS
29-Oct-17
Religion is a human invention.

God created Freedom, Love, Peace, etc. Man (willfully influenced by Satan) has perpetrated the evils mentioned above.

Don't blame God for your (or anyone else's) sins.

From: Atheist
29-Oct-17
Christianity, Islam, Judaism have all succeeded in snookering people. Robbing them and making false promises. Unbridled avarice is not considered morality in my book. There's more hypocrisy in religion than among athiests. I'll argue that religious people need a deity to be moral. Minus a deity they assume people are immoral because that's how they'd behave without that deity.

From: Owl
29-Oct-17
Pigdoc, the numbers liberally run between 13-25 million depending on interpretation. For instance, some include the 7 million in the Holocaust while others don't. The numbers do not differentiate between offensive and defensive death (i.e. Crusades) but I wont quibble. Here's the difference, when people die in the name of Christ, the offenders are violating explicit doctrine in observance of humanist motivations. Not so with Atheism.

Ryan, pretending atheism and secularism are excluded from religion is a popular ploy but logically inept. So, when you claim to exempt those doctrines from religious wars you are just wrong.

From: Owl
29-Oct-17
HA is correct about religion. In the beginning, Christianity was simply known as "the Way" and was a bunch of persecuted Jews and Gentiles spreading word of Christ and how to love God and neighbors.

From: Two Feathers
29-Oct-17
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psa 14:1

From: Pig Doc
29-Oct-17
"I don't believe atheists can have morals"

The height of religious arrogance. Morality and religion are not mutually exclusive nor are they mutually inclusive. Pedophile priests may be the most immoral people on earth. One of the most moral and giving people I know is non-religious. Come off your high horse.

From: Pig Doc
29-Oct-17
Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Take full vengeance for the sons of Israel on the Midianites; afterward you will be gathered to your people. The sons of Israel captured the women of Midian and their little ones; and all their cattle and all their flocks and all their goods they plundered. Then they burned all their cities where they lived and all their camps with fire. They took all the spoil and all the prey, both of man and of beast. Numbers 31:1-10

Moral?

From: HDE
29-Oct-17
True statement that many wars have been fought over the concept of religion. Good example are the Crusades.

However, those wars were fought over man's interpretation of religion, not God's. Just like it is man's interpretation of a non-existent God.

If man made up religion for a set of guiding principles for society, kudos. If man made up religion as a means to hope and a moral compass, kudos again.

Please persuade how religion and believing in God is a bad thing. Does it do you personal harm?

From: Atheist
30-Oct-17
Hde You raise an excellent point. I have no issue with anyone that wants to worship whatever deity they want. The issue is when religion is forced upon me. And to claim that the religious folks are more moral than atheists is simply wrong. There are countless examples of “religious people “that are simply evil. I would even go further. For the religious, it is their god that is the reason for their morality. For me at those like me, we simply hold ourselves to be moral. In other words I don’t need anyone holding anything against me in order to know right from wrong. If I behave and do well it is not because a heaven awaits me. It’s just because that’s the way I want to be for the good of mankind and my own decision

From: Owl
30-Oct-17
Pigdoc, I did not not say atheists cannot be "good people." Answer me this, what is the basis of an atheist's morality? Near as I can tell, it is adoptive (somewhat parasitic) and largely relativistic. Moral relativism is an illogical construct. It defeats itself. That's why I claim atheism has no morality. Nothing to do with the height of my horse.

Again, with the priests... is their behavior heretical or doctrinal? That is the litmus. What the pedophile priests did was not Christian, it was humanistic. Speaking of illogical, when faced with a humanistic transgression, many look at the problem and conclude to jettison the morality (i.e. Christianity) that sets itself against such behavior. I can understand faulting/leaving the Catholic Church, but to blame the entire faith is utter nonsense.

As for your citation of Numbers, take that up with Jews. Christians have moved on from the OT. Though, were I to defend the passage, I would first tell you to inform yourself about who the Midianites and Amalekites were.

From: Pig Doc
30-Oct-17
"I did not not say atheists cannot be "good people." No you said atheists cannot have morals. Are good people not moral people? You are wrong. You won't admit it because your horse is too high.

"Again, with the priests... is their behavior heretical or doctrinal?" It doesn't matter and its not my point. My point is religion and religious people are not necessarily moral, nor are non-religious people necessarily immoral.

"As for your citation of Numbers, take that up with Jews. Christians have moved on from the OT" Not sure what church you go to but the one I used to go to still teaches the OT. Very convenient to pick and choose what part of the Bible you get to believe in. BTW, I know who the Midianites are. Does that excuse their extermination by order of God? Not in my book, but I'm just an immoral bastard, not a perfect Christian like you.

From: HDE
30-Oct-17
So where do morals even come from? How was it determined what is right and wrong? Why do religious and non-religious both agree it is wrong to murder and steal as written in Exodus 20?

From: bigeasygator
30-Oct-17
I'll bite. We know it's wrong because we evolved to feel that way for a multitude of reasons. Compassion, grief, empathy, and pain are emotions and feelings that have an important evolutionary role. We evolved these feelings in short because there was a selective advantage to them.

From: HDE
30-Oct-17
So, Neandethals and early modern man did not feel a sense of compassion, grief, joy, pain, etc...? Did they not have family units as well, which means they were just as social a creature as we in the 21st century?

Please explain ancient burial cerimony/ritual in pre-historic man.

From: bigeasygator
30-Oct-17
Seeing as we share 99.5% of our DNA with Neanderthals and that they went extinct only about 40,000 years ago I will venture to say they were likely almost as emotionally evolved as homo sapien. This meant they felt the same things we did and likely had a very similar moral construct of the world because of it. Genetically speaking, I'm sure they viewed the world through much of the same lens we do.

As far as mourning/memorializing their dead, I think that could come from a number of things that are evolutionary in nature. The desire to form societal groups and forge strong relationships with others of your species carries with it advantages and benefits and we evolved to favor these systems. Grief over death (and how we deal with that grief, like memorializing people after they die) may be a biproduct of our biological preference to form strong emotional and societal ties with others. Grief may also serve a purpose from a survival perspective -- it serves to incentivize individuals to keep others of their species alive who they are close to in order to avoid the feeling of grief they previously experienced.

From: Owl
30-Oct-17
"Are good people not moral people? You are wrong. You won't admit it because your horse is too high." No, good and moral are not necessarily synonymous. Besides, as the Bible says, " There is no one righteous, not even one."(Rom. 3-10) And as condemning as that reads, it is actually quite a liberating operational precept, given our unanimous fallen status. It completely removes the pretext of personal perfection and self-righteousness.

"It doesn't matter and its not my point. My point is religion and religious people are not necessarily moral, nor are non-religious people necessarily immoral." I agree that religion is not necessarily "moral." Far from it, actually. I'll disagree in the distinction between the religious and irreligious. I've never met an irreligious person in my life. I will sooner discover Bigfoot.

"Not sure what church you go to but the one I used to go to still teaches the OT. Very convenient to pick and choose what part of the Bible you get to believe in. BTW, I know who the Midianites are. Does that excuse their extermination by order of God? Not in my book, but I'm just an immoral bastard, not a perfect Christian like you." -Not cherry picking. To a Christian, the OT is a record of history and a tale about a specific bloodline, that of Christ. From the view of Christianity, most of the OT should be read as descriptive and not prescriptive. The NT is much more prescriptive. If, however, one reads BOTH as prescriptive, that individual will be ALLLL sorts of screwed up in interpretation and application. BTW, God cannot be immoral. He can kill but not murder. But that is another rabbit hole.

From: Pig Doc
30-Oct-17
So the 10 Commandments are only for Jews and are just descriptive, not prescriptive? That's a whole new take on Christianity.

From: Pig Doc
30-Oct-17
"I'll bite. We know it's wrong because we evolved to feel that way for a multitude of reasons. Compassion, grief, empathy, and pain are emotions and feelings that have an important evolutionary role. We evolved these feelings in short because there was a selective advantage to them."

You are correct. There are human and animal examples of this. But Owl will argue there are no irreligious monkeys. If they show compassion it has to be due to their religious upbringing.

From: Two Feathers
30-Oct-17
So who should we listen to and believe Bill Nye, Richard Dawkins, Charles Darwin or Jesus? I'm with Jesus. The other three are dead and in the grave. Jesus is not.

And he (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, Matt 19:4 Who would know better than Jesus - no one.

Evolution is a religious belief of the atheists, secular humanists and to some extent a bunch of Christians. It's a joke and a lie.

From: Owl
30-Oct-17
I said "most of the OT..." A person has to engage his/her intellect reading the Bible just as any other literature. The Bible is not a manifest of fortune cookie blurbs, after all. Though, I'm starting to appreciate how inculcated such an approach must be. BTW, the NT amends even the Ten Commandments. So, to my point, in many ways, the NT transcends the OT.

Actually, I would say monkeys don't possess the capacity to be religious. Or good.

From: Pig Doc
30-Oct-17
Yep, and all that physical proof of evolution was just put here to test our faith.

From: HDE
30-Oct-17
Interesting to think how and why that sense of compassion for species likeness is tied to survival.

How does a simple change in gene frequency do that over time?

From: Pig Doc
30-Oct-17
"Actually, I would say monkeys don't possess the capacity to be religious. Or good."

Yet monkeys show empathy, compassion and love. I will take a bad monkey over a pedophilic priest every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

From: bigeasygator
30-Oct-17
That's the amazing thing about evolution and natural selection. The traits that help us survive (and the genes they are attached to) tend to stick around by being passed on. Those that don't tend to get weeded out.

From: Two Feathers
30-Oct-17
At this point in human history we have more accumulated bad mutations than we care to think about. We are not evolving. If anything we are devolving.

From: Pig Doc
30-Oct-17
That's because survival of the fittest has to have a negative consequence in order to work. Society has removed those consequences and now the less-fit are actually reproducing at a higher rate than the fit.

From: Owl
30-Oct-17
Monkeys will also cannibalize other monkeys, procreate with a sibling, kill for sex, food and territory. Not my kind of role models.

From: Two Feathers
30-Oct-17
"survival of the fittest" I was taught that. In reality it's more like survival of the luckiest.

From: 70lbdraw
30-Oct-17
"We are not evolving. If anything we are devolving."

Makes you wonder if that wasn't gods plan all along.

From: HDE
30-Oct-17
"Society has removed those consequences and now the less-fit are actually reproducing at a higher rate than the fit."

Ha! So that explains pelosi...

From: Sixby
30-Oct-17
Most of you , including Christians tend to blame God for everything. Remember the fact that there is Satan. He was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. So when death of innocent occours it is most likely due to the influence of Satan upon the helpless. Irrelevant due to the fact that all flesh must die, Sometimes its the young , sometimes elderly who have lived wonderful lives but all flesh will die. Only those who are in the spirit will not see death. Be born again, of the spirit and your flesh will die but you will never suffer it because Jesus did that for everyone that will believe upon him to eternal life. Jesus loves us all, The gift of everlasting life is paid for and if I now have everlasting life who can take that away from me, Or from you? No one.

God bless, steve

From: Two Feathers
30-Oct-17
70lbdraw - your thought has merit. It's a product of the curse. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Gen 3:19 This story also has an ending. God wins!

From: Pig Doc
30-Oct-17
"Monkeys will also cannibalize other monkeys, procreate with a sibling, kill for sex, food and territory. Not my kind of role models."

Humans will do and have done the same. And if they believe and repent they will go to heaven. And a moral atheist that lives a clean, giving life is doomed to hell. Seems a little messed up to me.

From: Bowbender
30-Oct-17
Pig,

"And a moral atheist that lives a clean, giving life is doomed to hell. Seems a little messed up to me."

Define "clean, giving life" and maybe we'll start the conversation. What's the baseline?

From: HDE
30-Oct-17
Doesn't it read in James 2 that both faith AND works are required?

From: TD
30-Oct-17
This has gone right into ridiculous. An ape can murder, rape, steal, be a child molester and any other damn thing it "feels" like. As long as it is strong or sneaky enough to do so, it will "get away with it" with no recrimination. That they may feel pain or have group or maternal instincts..... that is what some equate with "morals"? Really? .....Geez, talk about moral relativism......

Human secular "morals" are the ultimate goal posts on wheels. They have zero foundation in anything solid, but soft shifting feelings, attitudes, etc. Bend fit and manipulate to get around them...... raise the bar when applying to certain others.... Foundations are important in near all aspects of life, never more so than with morality.

From: Two Feathers
30-Oct-17
HDE - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9

This is what James 2 has to say about it:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" Jas 2:14

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." Jas 2-17

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." Jas 2-18

I don't get that your saved by works in what James writes. I get that works are expected of you once your saved.

From: Owl
30-Oct-17
Agreed, TD.

HDE, Works always follow faith but works do not qualify salvation -or faith- for that matter.

From: HDE
30-Oct-17
It's a two for one thing: faith and good works are both required to receive the greatest reward. All men are saved by grace regardless of works or faith, which means eternal life, but not all men will inherit...

By good works, you don't go around and say "look at me, look at me". Your good works are recognized by those you serve.

From: HA/KS
30-Oct-17
I guess I see no logic or wisdom in questioning a God who can bring the entire universe into existence with just a word.

Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Isaiah 45:9 "“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’?"

Interesting to note that all of creation was created by the Word of God.

That is all except man. Man was created by the hands of God and breathed to live by the breath of God.

Yes, people are a special part of creation.

From: Pig Doc
30-Oct-17
"This has gone right into ridiculous. An ape can murder, rape, steal, be a child molester and any other damn thing it "feels" like. As long as it is strong or sneaky enough to do so, it will "get away with it" with no recrimination."

But your version of religion allows its leaders to molest children and cover it up and with no recrimination. It does not even have to be sneaky. What a bunch of dopes.

From: Sixby
30-Oct-17
Faith and works, HMMMM, Eat this one. This is the work of God , that you believe upon Him who He has sent./

Thought I would throw this one into the mix. God bless, Steve

From: Owl
31-Oct-17
"But your version of religion allows its leaders to molest children and cover it up and with no recrimination. It does not even have to be sneaky. What a bunch of dopes."

- While utterly false, let me point out the logical fallacy in this construct. Why would the Catholic Church cover up something about which they don't 'even have to be sneaky?' Because they fear 'recrimination.' As well they should. Another fallacy, the Catholic Church is not synonymous with Christendom. Frankly, of the deaths "attributable to Christianity" millions are from conflicts to separate from the Catholic Church.

From: HA/KS
31-Oct-17
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just.A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. – Deuteronomy 32:4

From: BIG BEAR
31-Oct-17
A lot of arguing and discussion where no one will change the other guys mind.....

31-Oct-17
I do know for fact that no amount of quoting scripture will ever change anyone's mind.

From: Owl
31-Oct-17
Straight Arrow, I agree with you. I'll quote Scripture because it is truth and it applies but those who solely quote Scripture are disarming their witness to an extent. God is, among other phenomena, order and rationality. No need to dismiss appealing to those traits in defense of Christ.

1 Peter 3:15: "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence"

From: sleepyhunter
31-Oct-17
""A lot of arguing and discussion where no one will change the other guys mind....""

Yes I agree. There's a few here that will change their mind on their judgement day.

31-Oct-17
I'm ready for judgment day. I say bring it.

From: 70lbdraw
31-Oct-17
"Yes I agree. There's a few here that will change their mind on their judgement day."

There will also be few here that will be surprisingly disappointed as well!!

From: HA/KS
31-Oct-17
"I do know for fact that no amount of quoting scripture will ever change anyone's mind." Maybe.

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

Why do people fear the Word of God? God, with just His voice created all of creation. The Word of God exposes us for what we are and that can be very unpleasant.

I find it interesting that when Jesus was tempted, he did not argue, but quoted Scripture.

From: sleepyhunter
31-Oct-17
""I'm ready for judgment day. I say bring it.""

Amen. Bring it.

From: Owl
31-Oct-17
HA, you are correct. However, Jesus was tempted by Satan. Satan knows the truth of Scripture better than humanity. Gotta meet people where they are with both the Word and plain reasoning. JMHO.

From: Sixby
01-Nov-17
SA : Could it be that you do not like scripture to be quoted because you know its true and effective? I believe so. Here is one for you. My Word will not return unto me void but it shall accomplish that where unto I send it. God has reasons for having people give the Word ./ Perhaps its not to change a mind in some cases rather to hold the person responsible that rejects it. No one will stand before God's judgment and be judged guiltless when they have rejected the Word of God. So that makes the Word of God much more powerful that what I or anyone else speaks or writes that is not God's Word.

God bless, Steve

02-Nov-17
you might be surprised to learn that I find some scripture to be quite powerful and persuasive......some not so much. I do very much appreciate your post.

From: Two Feathers
02-Nov-17
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12

  • Sitka Gear