Carbon Express Arrows
Texas Church Shooting
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Contributors to this thread:
Gray Ghost 05-Nov-17
Bowfreak 05-Nov-17
Bowfreak 05-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 05-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 05-Nov-17
bigeasygator 05-Nov-17
Bentstick81 05-Nov-17
freeglee 05-Nov-17
JTV 05-Nov-17
shade mt 05-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 05-Nov-17
JTV 05-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 05-Nov-17
HDE 05-Nov-17
DL 05-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 05-Nov-17
JTV 05-Nov-17
JTV 05-Nov-17
sleepyhunter 05-Nov-17
JTV 05-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 05-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 05-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 05-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 05-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 05-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 05-Nov-17
Shuteye 05-Nov-17
JTV 05-Nov-17
Fulldraw1972 05-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 05-Nov-17
slade 05-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 05-Nov-17
Trax 05-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 05-Nov-17
Rhody 05-Nov-17
JTV 05-Nov-17
WV Mountaineer 05-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 05-Nov-17
ryanrc 05-Nov-17
JTV 05-Nov-17
JTV 05-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 05-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 05-Nov-17
HDE 05-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 06-Nov-17
slade 06-Nov-17
Beendare 06-Nov-17
shade mt 06-Nov-17
Atheist 06-Nov-17
sportoutfitter 06-Nov-17
K Cummings 06-Nov-17
Atheist 06-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 06-Nov-17
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tonyo6302 06-Nov-17
WV Mountaineer 06-Nov-17
Shuteye 06-Nov-17
K Cummings 06-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 06-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 06-Nov-17
bad karma 06-Nov-17
bigeasygator 06-Nov-17
JTV 06-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 06-Nov-17
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bad karma 06-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 06-Nov-17
Beendare 06-Nov-17
K Cummings 06-Nov-17
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slade 06-Nov-17
Irishman 06-Nov-17
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K Cummings 06-Nov-17
SunnyInCO 06-Nov-17
JTV 06-Nov-17
JTV 06-Nov-17
HDE 06-Nov-17
MT in MO 06-Nov-17
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Bou'bound 06-Nov-17
Whitey 06-Nov-17
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Woods Walker 06-Nov-17
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shade mt 06-Nov-17
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Bentstick81 06-Nov-17
Woods Walker 06-Nov-17
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Shuteye 06-Nov-17
TD 06-Nov-17
WV Mountaineer 06-Nov-17
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HA/KS 06-Nov-17
K Cummings 07-Nov-17
K Cummings 07-Nov-17
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Sixby 07-Nov-17
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shade mt 07-Nov-17
K Cummings 07-Nov-17
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Bowfreak 07-Nov-17
tonyo6302 07-Nov-17
Bentstick81 07-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 07-Nov-17
K Cummings 07-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 07-Nov-17
orionsbrother 07-Nov-17
orionsbrother 07-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 07-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 07-Nov-17
Bowfreak 07-Nov-17
bad karma 07-Nov-17
shade mt 07-Nov-17
K Cummings 07-Nov-17
K Cummings 07-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 07-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 07-Nov-17
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elkmtngear 07-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 07-Nov-17
TGbow 07-Nov-17
HA/KS 07-Nov-17
K Cummings 07-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 07-Nov-17
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Whitey 07-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 07-Nov-17
bigeasygator 07-Nov-17
Whitey 07-Nov-17
TD 07-Nov-17
K Cummings 07-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 07-Nov-17
Whitey 07-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 07-Nov-17
TGbow 07-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 07-Nov-17
TGbow 07-Nov-17
WV Mountaineer 07-Nov-17
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Gray Ghost 08-Nov-17
shade mt 08-Nov-17
K Cummings 08-Nov-17
WV Mountaineer 08-Nov-17
Shuteye 08-Nov-17
K Cummings 08-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 08-Nov-17
sleepyhunter 08-Nov-17
Whitey 08-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 08-Nov-17
Whitey 08-Nov-17
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K Cummings 08-Nov-17
Glunt@work 08-Nov-17
bad karma 08-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 08-Nov-17
DL 08-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 08-Nov-17
HA/KS 08-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 08-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 08-Nov-17
WV Mountaineer 08-Nov-17
Sixby 08-Nov-17
TGbow 08-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 09-Nov-17
TGbow 09-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 09-Nov-17
K Cummings 09-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 09-Nov-17
K Cummings 09-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 09-Nov-17
bad karma 09-Nov-17
K Cummings 09-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 09-Nov-17
Whitey 09-Nov-17
Sixby 10-Nov-17
TGbow 10-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 10-Nov-17
From: Gray Ghost
05-Nov-17
I wonder if he was insane, or a terrorist, or both?

F-ing tragic. My prayers are with all.

Matt

From: Bowfreak
05-Nov-17
It was a she I believe.

From: Bowfreak
05-Nov-17
Disregard....now I am seeing the word gunman.

From: Gray Ghost
05-Nov-17
MSNBC is already ramping up the gun control rhetoric, again. Shameless.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
05-Nov-17
The world is full of pure evil.......

From: bigeasygator
05-Nov-17
We shouldn't punish all _________ for the actions of a few crazy _________. The overwhelming majority of ________ would never commit such a senseless, violent act.

Wonder what we get to fill the blank in with this time.

Such a tragedy. Thoughts are with all those affected.

From: Bentstick81
05-Nov-17
BEG, I would say" Pieces of shit", to fill in the blanks.

Thoughts and prayers to the those and family members.

From: freeglee
05-Nov-17
This Gun Violence MUST END!!!!

Common sense is Wwwway Overdue!!!

From: JTV
05-Nov-17
No No No No Noooooooo !!..... I'll wait for more info to come out on the maniac ... Prayers sent ... my heart cries with pain ... evil strikes again ....

From: shade mt
05-Nov-17
Grayghost...you said "I wonder if he was insane" think about it....of course he was insane.

Normal people do NOT! do such things. About time this country gets back to some good old fashioned RIGHT! and WRONG! Some people don't even know right from wrong anymore. The word is "reprobate" and once you lose the ability to distinguish and discern right from wrong? wake up America.

From: BIG BEAR
05-Nov-17
I'm seeing early reports that it was a 26 year old white male named Devin Kelley.... possibly former military

From: JTV
05-Nov-17
BB, that is what Fox is reporting, he also has Facebook postings, him and a AR series rifle.... crap !!

From: Gray Ghost
05-Nov-17
shade mt,

That was a tongue in cheek reference to the "6 Killed in New York" thread. Some people feel there's a distinction between a insane mass murderer and a sane terrorist. I called that "hog wash", and spent three days defending my position.

I still maintain they are all insane terrorist murderers.

Matt

From: HDE
05-Nov-17
"This Gun Violence MUST END!!!!"

Guns aren't violent. Shame on you to take a trajedy and instantly politicize it...

From: DL
05-Nov-17
Freeglee violence period needs to end. People are inundated with it from a young age with video games, TV and movies. This what we get. If it wasn’t guns it would be knives and axes like mass killers do in China. As a society we can’t keep feeding kids this crap and not expecting this result. A picture I saw was of a shaved headed white dufus that did the killing

From: Gray Ghost
05-Nov-17
Please don't respond to the village idiot. That only encourages he/she/it to come back.

Do you really want to engage someone who can't form sentences above a 3rd grade level? Apparently, 3rd grade grammar class was the hardest 6 years of his life.

Matt

From: JTV
05-Nov-17
GG, we agree on that for sure ..

From: JTV
05-Nov-17
maniac's name is Devon Patrick Kelly, age 26

From: sleepyhunter
05-Nov-17
Governor Abbott saying victims range from 5 to 72 yrs.

From: JTV
05-Nov-17
Press conference said the shooter was stopped by a civilian with his own rifle, at which time he fled the scene .... dont know if he killed himself, police killed him or was killed by the "civilian" .... investigation continues //

From: Gray Ghost
05-Nov-17
Ok, so far we have a 26 yr old, born and raised in America male, with a suspected AR15. If that's true, including the Vegas shooter, that's over 80 dead in two months from homegrown terrorists.

And some fear the Muslim boogie man more? Hmmm....

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
05-Nov-17
There's only one way to respond to the trend of mass murderers in our country....... Arm yourself....... Get a CPL... a CCW...... whatever your state requires..... and arm yourself..... The citizen who confronted this madman is a hero...... he most likely saved dozens more of lives.

From: Annony Mouse
05-Nov-17
Breitbart:

Update 5:55 p.m.: Texas Department of Public Safety Region 6 Director Freeman Martin told reporters during a press conference that a local resident engaged the shooter with his own weapon. Devin Kelley then dropped his Ruger AR-15 rifle and got in his car to leave. The resident pursued Kelley’s vehicle until it crashed. Police found Kelley dead inside his vehicle. It is not clear if he shot himself or if the resident shot him, Martin stated."

From: Gray Ghost
05-Nov-17
Big Bear,

Regrettably, I think that's the only solution. Until society quits programming it's young that violence is a remedy to disputes, our only defense is arming ourselves.

Jesus, I hate hanging my Glock on my belt every day. But, if that's what it takes.....

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
05-Nov-17
He was possibly court martialed in the Air Force 3 years ago and dishonorably discharged.....

From: Annony Mouse
05-Nov-17
If the report of a dishonorable discharge is correct, that would make Kelley a prohibited person and his firearms were owned illegally.

Ergo...no new gun laws could have prevented this act.

From: Shuteye
05-Nov-17
He had a Ruger AR 15 and got into a shoot out with a civilian that had a rifle. The bad guy dropped his gun, jumped in a car and took off. He ran off the road and when the cops got there he was dead. They say they didn't know if he shot himself or the civilian got him.

From: JTV
05-Nov-17
I dont leave home without my 9mm, even if just going to the store ... very seldom if ever do I go to Walmart, but I went Saturday looking for a particular item, and saw a gentleman with his family/ 2 children/wife shopping, he was open carry..., even though I dont push open carry, it is legal here ... I'd rather people not know I have it on me .... I use either a BullDog SERPA Paddle, or my Alien Gear SOB ...

From: Fulldraw1972
05-Nov-17
Such a tragedy. I fell for all that are involved.

From: Annony Mouse
05-Nov-17
Several sources are reporting that Sutherland Springs, Texas Killer Devin Patrick Kelley is being said to be a Radical Alt-Left Antifa member. One would hope that the authorities provide all information found rather than sit on it. With Kelly dead, there is no reason to protect him from the public knowing what factors lead him to invade a church and massacre its congregation.

From: slade
05-Nov-17

slade's Link
There are several of these organizations who help churches protect themselves from within.

From: Gray Ghost
05-Nov-17
JTV,

If everyone in that church was open carrying, I guarantee this coward would have second guessed his choice of targets. I say don't ever *not* push open carry. We're all safer if sane people are openly armed and know how to use them.

Matt

From: Trax
05-Nov-17
We need to be more proactive about identifying and treating mental illness. We need our media to be more responsible and quit making celebrities out of these sick and weak freaks. And I know it won't be easy or cheap but we need better security at all private and public sector events. Part of that security is for all good citizens to take responsibility. Sometimes that can be done with words and leadership, some of that includes the security an armed citizenry gives all.

From: Annony Mouse
05-Nov-17
Matt...ever read Heinline's book "Puppet Masters"?

From: Rhody
05-Nov-17
an armed society is a polite society.... knowing that the potential of somebody shooting back is a given...

Unfortunately, the press to keep weapons out of the hands of the citizenry will continue to provide us with events such as this.

Don't know yet, but I'd bet psych meds will be in the mix with this person.

From: JTV
05-Nov-17
There already are those calling for the banning of the bad "black guns" .. even more vehement than after Vegas ...

05-Nov-17
For the first time in a while, I agree with Matt. Open carry keeps the crooks honest

From: Annony Mouse
05-Nov-17
Rhody...the complete quote came from Robert Heinline! ;o)

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

Robert A. Heinlein

From: ryanrc
05-Nov-17
I think open carry is better. Most people will look elsewhere of they know you are armed. It will save you the hassle of shooting someone. Sure you can defend yourself with cc, but then you have to deal with the aftermath of shooting someone. I would rather the house never be on fire than have a big hose.

From: JTV
05-Nov-17

JTV's Link
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/358868-democrats-renew-calls-for-gun-control-in-wake-of-texas-church-shooting

From: JTV
05-Nov-17

JTV's Link
Antifa member/affiliated/believer/Atheist ??? ... see link...

From: BIG BEAR
05-Nov-17
I saw something on line about him possibly having had taught bible school..... but then having surfed Atheist websites.... and had a wife and kids......... The only thing that really matters is that he was a murderous POS.....

From: BIG BEAR
05-Nov-17
As far as treating mental illness..... I can't speak for other states but in Michigan..... by 2003...... the state had closed three quarters of the states mental hospitals........ Now.... instead of being housed in a mental hospital with trained professionals...... People with mental problems are housed in Group Homes........ Group Homes are regular houses in regular neighborhoods.... bought by private citizens for profit to house mental patients. They have paid babysitters with little training in the houses basically for minimum wage. The "Residents" only see case workers who are trained on occasion........ As a Police Officer who REGULARLY responds to trouble with these patients in these homes.... I can attest that it's a freaking mess.... God forbid someone buy the house next door to my house and make it a group home. I would move immediately..... I would bet we have over 50 group homes in the city I work in.... which is about 24 square miles......

From: HDE
05-Nov-17
Why won't the dems come out and say they want gun confiscation...?

From: BIG BEAR
06-Nov-17
My wife just told me that she saw on TV that this POS reportedly was avenging Dylan Roof....

From: slade
06-Nov-17

From: Beendare
06-Nov-17
Is there any question he was psychotic?

He was dishonorably discharged and imprisoned for 12 months for beating his wife and kid.

The story I saw he dropped his AR15 and ran to his car when a civilian with a shotgun confronted him... which seems to be typical of these mentally ill mass shooters. Armed resistance scares them back into their hole.

From: shade mt
06-Nov-17
I wonder if armed citizens did in fact chase him down, will the liberal media keep it hush hush? I'm curious. If they do, then their REAL agenda becomes obvious. Not about The good the bad...but control.

From: Atheist
06-Nov-17
Just send more thoughts and prayers, I’m sure it’ll work this time!

06-Nov-17
Prayers will ease their pain. You should try it some time.

From: K Cummings
06-Nov-17
"I wonder if he was insane, or a terrorist, or both?"

Motive will tell. We may never know.

KPC

From: Atheist
06-Nov-17
White American kills a bunch of people. He’s mentally ill. Crazy, Not a terrorist. No policies will be discussed; end of story until the next time

Muslim kills people, it’s us vs Islam, he’s “an animal” and policies must be implemented immediately even if it’s unconstitutional.

Strange how that happens.

From: Gray Ghost
06-Nov-17
Apparently this terrorist lived in Colorado Springs for a period after getting booted from the Air Force Academy. That's too close to home for me.

Has anyone confirmed how he died? Suicide? Did the police cap him? Or did the citizen who chased him down have that pleasure?

Matt

From: K Cummings
06-Nov-17
It is being reported this morning that the killer died from a self inflicted gunshot wound.

Also being reported is that the shooters in-laws may have been members of the church, however they were not attending.

We'll see.

KPC

From: Gray Ghost
06-Nov-17
Good. So no one else had to waste a bullet on this pathetic terrorist.

I'm curious. How do you think your local church goers will feel about carrying in a place of worship? No one will bat an eye in my neck of the woods, but I can envision that being a problem in some churches.

Matt

From: tonyo6302
06-Nov-17
My understanding of Virginia CC Law, is that you must have permission from the Place of Worship to carry or concealed carry.

. .

. .

So to be lawful here, one must talk to the Pastor/Priest/Clergy and get permission.

06-Nov-17
My pastor carries full time out side of service. I’m not sure about in service.

From: Shuteye
06-Nov-17
Police said that the good guy with a rifle did hit the killer with a bullet and that is why he dropped his AR 15 and took off in his car.

From: K Cummings
06-Nov-17
"I'm curious. How do you think your local church goers will feel about carrying in a place of worship? No one will bat an eye in my neck of the woods, but I can envision that be a problem in some churches."

My church is rather schizophrenic on the subject. There is a sign on our front door that says no guns allowed on premises...yet we have at least one LEO that carries at every service.

That way if a terrorist, or some deranged psychopath decides to try anything, at least we aren't all sitting ducks.

KPC

From: Annony Mouse
06-Nov-17
Man who lives near Sutherland Springs church describes how his neighbor shot Devin Kelley.

Authorities are playing this close to the vest, but it seems likely that Kelly was shot by an armed citizen and died from his wounds while fleeing.

From: Annony Mouse
06-Nov-17
In Texas, concealed carry in a church is legal.

A little information about carry in a place of worship:

The State of Concealed and Open Carry in Churches

According to concealedcarry.com, there are two states that ban concealed carry in churches, Nebraska and Louisiana. Nebraska allows a church to authorize an armed security team if the team members have carry permits and if written notice is given to church members. Louisiana law is similar, but requires an extra eight hours of training every year. Seven states and D.C. that require the permission of a church leader to conceal carry firearms in church, and 41 states where carry in churches is treated the same as any other private property.

Of the 41 states that treat churches the same as other private property, eight are "may issue" states, where the permit issuing authority can deny the exercise of the Second Amendment for almost any reason. Those states are California, Delaware, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island. Within these states, the issuance of permits ranges from almost none in Hawaii and New Jersey, to fairly large numbers, as in upstate New York and Massachusetts.

There are 13 states that do not require a permit to carry concealed. They are Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Vermont, Wyoming, and West Virginia.

Open carry is legal in most states. Only five states prohibit the open carry of holstered handguns in most public places. Those states are California, Florida, Illinois, New York and South Carolina. 26 States do not infringe on the right to openly carry firearms. Six states infringe on open carry in a few specific areas. Pennsylvania requires a permit for Philadelphia, Colorado requires a permit for Denver, and Iowa requires a permit inside city limits. The other three states allow localities to pass restrictions on open carry without a permit. 13 states require a permit for open carry.

In my experience, most people who carry in church carry concealed. There are churches where open carry is common and acceptable. In my church, The Vertical Church, in Yuma, Arizona, open carry is common and seen every Sunday. Many of the open carriers are on the church security detail. There are concealed carriers as well, but they are harder to count. People switch between open and concealed carry as is convenient.

In the early colonies, people were sometimes required to be armed at church. In "Origins and Development of the Second Amendment", I found a reference to colonial requirements to carry guns in church from the Virginia laws of arms bearing.

All men that are fitting to bear arms, shall bring their pieces to the church...

The law dated to 1631. David Hardy found it in the 1823 work by William Henning, "The Statutes at large, being a collection of all the laws of Virginia, Vol. 1 at 127, 173-174."

Those were perilous time in Virginia.

Church attendees are not attacked with the frequency that they were in the 1630's in Virginia. The United States today has a population tens of thousands of times greater than all the colonies in 1631. It seems like we are being attacked at a greater frequency because each attack is trumpeted over the entire nation, and our communication system is so good that everyone hears of every attack almost immediately.

Church attendees tend to be responsible people. It makes sense for those with knowledge of firearms to carry at church.

With the recent attacks on church attendees, the legal carry of firearms to church is bound to rise.

©2017 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice and link are included.

From: bad karma
06-Nov-17

bad karma's Link
Apparently, the shooter, who I will not name, is an atheist who had a history of mocking believers, as does a despicable idiot who posts here.

From: bigeasygator
06-Nov-17
Not sure what you mean by "playing this close to the vest" as it seems to be pretty widely reported that an armed citizen intervened and thankfully prevented the situation from getting worse. The front page headline in big bold print on CNN says "Armed resident confronted gunman after church massacre" with a follow-up headline that says "This man may have prevented the shooting from getting deadlier." No doubt the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. The only thing that seems to be uncertain at this stage is whether he died from a self-inflicted gun shot would or a wound inflicted by the armed citizen. Frankly, that detail doesn't matter too much to me. What matters is a good civilian guy with a gun prevented a bad guy with a gun from doing more damage, and this is being acknowledged.

From: JTV
06-Nov-17

JTV's Link
The maniac was an ATHEIST... a whacked out ATHEIST ... see link ... kinda sounds like another whacked out "Atheist" dosnt it ..

From: Gray Ghost
06-Nov-17
Once the dust settles, I'd like to see 2nd amendment advocates make the most of this tragedy. The armed citizen should be publicly honored for his heroism. If his shot killed the terrorist, even better.

Let's turn the table on the damn gun control morons.

Matt

From: Annony Mouse
06-Nov-17

Annony Mouse's embedded Photo
Annony Mouse's embedded Photo
Obviously, officials could easily have made the announcement as to Kelly's death. The politics of the 2A probably have much to do with their withholding whether Kelly suicided or died from a legally armed citizen who responded to the shooting. Ergo, at this point in time, the officials are keeping this info from public knowledge.

From: bad karma
06-Nov-17
Jack, or, it's just that they'll wait until the autopsy to announce cause of death. Either way, the reports are that the good Samaritan shot him through a gap in the armor. I've read both rifle and shotgun in different reports, but in either case, it appears he was shot by a good guy with a gun.

I'm not particularly worried about this part of the case. Since private citizens were involved, the story will get out. It does make me carry even when I normally might not, though.

Not everything is a conspiracy.

From: Annony Mouse
06-Nov-17
Kevin...no conspiracy. Had Kelly shot himself vs. being shot by the armed citizen should be quite obvious and easily reported.

My first job was deiner (autopsy assistant) and I observed and learned the difference between self inflicted vs. shot by someone. Suicide would involve close contact which is much different than being shot from a distance just from appearance of the wound(s). It is also reported that citizen's shot during chase which would make any hits on Kelly from behind.

Hey...I'm not complaining at the results. I would hope that most of us here would have acted in a similar manner under circumstances like this.

From: Beendare
06-Nov-17
Fox reporting the Shooter tried to buy a gun legally...but was turned down due to the background check.

^THIS is what the liberal Dems just cannot get through their thick skulls....the good guys with guns legally acquired aren't the problem. Bad guys will always be able to acquire illegal weapons....thankfully in this case there was an armed good guy.

From: K Cummings
06-Nov-17
"Had Kelly shot himself vs. being shot by the armed citizen should be quite obvious and easily reported. "

It actually could be both.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
06-Nov-17
Give them a few minutes to make sure what they release is factual..... sheesh..... There's a press conference coming up soon reportedly with more information.......You're trying to make too much of the "Politics" of how he died Jack..... They are going to tell you.... as Kevin Said.... it's entirely possible he was shot by one of the Good Samaritans..... then fled in the car and shot himself as well.

From: slade
06-Nov-17
The Daily Mail reported:

The Texas church shooter had family connections to the church where he killed at least 26 on Sunday in what is now the worst mass shooting in the state’s history.

Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackett told the Today show Monday morning that Devin Patrick Kelley’s ex in-laws attended the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, where he unleashed a firestorm of bullets during Sunday morning service.

It was previously reported that Kelley’s wife Danielle was a former teacher at the school, and that her mother Michelle was a parishoner.

But the sheriff’s revelation that it was his ex in-laws who attended the church indicates that he and Danielle may have had a falling out.

Sheriff Tackett said the family was not at the church at the time of the shooting, but spoke to investigators yesterday after the massacre.

From: Irishman
06-Nov-17
I would imagine now that there will be an inquest into why a guy who couldn't legally have a gun could show up with all his tactical gear and an assault rifle to do this. This could harm the future of gun shows, or private sales of guns.

From: BIG BEAR
06-Nov-17
They just said in the press release that the Good Samaritan did in fact shoot the suspect at the church and then the suspect shot himself at the end of the chase.

From: K Cummings
06-Nov-17

According the most recent press conference:

"...we want to get that out there that this was not racially motivated, it wasn't over religious beliefs, there was a domestic situation going on within the family..."

"At this time, we do not have a terrorism investigation open.

From: SunnyInCO
06-Nov-17
FBI reports text between shooter and mother-in-law indicate what K Cummings said, this is a domestic situation. 18 month old is now the youngest fatality. Video was recording inside the church however not known if it shows or provides any details. Family that lost 8 of its own including a mother that was pregnant. Assuming fatalities not included in the total count.

From: JTV
06-Nov-17
He was Dishonorably Discharged, he had a conviction for Domestic Violence.. he lied on the 4473 and the NICS check did not deny the sale, or was it put on "delay" and released after the mandatory wait time ... he was denied the right to carry however (?) .... much has yet to come out ... but he should not have been able to purchase the firearm ....... it is now being said, he had a beef with his former ex family and mother n law ... supposedly she attended the church he went to, maybe looking for her

From: JTV
06-Nov-17
it is now being said he had a "Bad Conduct Discharge", that in itself would not have prevented the purchase, it is different from a DHD in legalities... however, did he or did he not have a Domestic Violence conviction ?... THAT would have keep him from the purchase ...

From: HDE
06-Nov-17
Once again, use and carry out the laws already on the books. Quit wasting everyone's time and money inventing new ones.

When places like Chicago can clean up their act, then a dialog can actually happen on the validity to "gun control"...

From: MT in MO
06-Nov-17
I heard earlier today that the domestic abuse thing occurred while in the Military and the conviction does not appear on his civilian police records.

I'm betting there will be a change to how these types of crimes are reported and filed from here on out...

From: BIG BEAR
06-Nov-17
The only discussion about guns that needs to occur in this case is the fact that armed law abiding citizens stepped up and saved lives.... if more people in the church had been armed maybe more people would have been saved. Arm yourself....

From: Bou'bound
06-Nov-17
yes they should have been carrying AR 15s as well.

From: Whitey
06-Nov-17
We had a Muslim guy that would stand out in our church parking lot and yell anti Christian statements. Our pastor tried to reason with him but no go. Turns out it’s not a crime. The police would respond and the guy moved to other churches in the area but would come back. We hired armed security that would wait in the parking lot and also acted like normal church attendees by bringing female guards so they looked like couples. Very few people were told about it and it is still taking place a year later. Seattle is the Least churched area in the country so it’s normal to hear Christian bashing socially. They don’t even realize they are doing it it’s so normal.

From: Gray Ghost
06-Nov-17
Trump called this a "mental health issue, not a gun issue." Good for him.

I wonder if he would have came to the same conclusion , if the murderer was Muslim with the same domestic motives.

Matt

From: JTV
06-Nov-17
Just imagine what would be going on if Clinton or another dem had been elected, or what would happen if the dems regain control of the house/senate and POTUS .... goodbye 2A ...

From: Atheist
06-Nov-17
GG, except trump removed the law preventing the mentally ill from owning guns. So while he calls it a mental health thing, he’s dismantling laws designed ed to address that thing. Appalling

From: slade
06-Nov-17
""Just imagine what would be going on if Clinton or another dem had been elected, or what would happen if the dems regain control of the house/senate and POTUS ""

The bowlibs would be having orgasams and the Closet Democrat would be denying he voted for the witch.

From: Bentstick81
06-Nov-17
Cry us a river atheist. 8^)))

From: Woods Walker
06-Nov-17

Woods Walker's Link
"GG, except trump removed the law preventing the mentally ill from owning guns. So while he calls it a mental health thing, he’s dismantling laws designed ed to address that thing. Appalling"

BULLSHIT! This loser was dishonorably discharged from the Air Force for beating his wife AND splitting open the skull of his baby stepson. Somehow the Air Force (under your boy Obama's reign) DIDN'T REPORT THIS TO THE FBI LIKE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO and he was able to pass his background checks. So go cram your BS where the sun doesn't shine.

From: Whitey
06-Nov-17
Trump didn’t stop mentally ill from any such thing liar. He stopped people that have given up their control of their own finances from being labeled mentally ill and subject to not being able to own fire arms. He stopped liberal jurisdictions from encroaching on peoples 2A rights through the courts with out due process, liar.

From: shade mt
06-Nov-17
The whole gun control issue is like blaming auto's for drunk driving crashes, or blaming auto's for texting and driving crashes.

Anyone ever think, maybe we hate to much? I'd love just ONCE!!! to hear a non believer tell me EXACTLY what is wrong with the New Testament Gospel of Jesus Christ. IF we all actually lived according to the New Testament and not just professed it THESE THINGS WOULDN"T HAPPEN!! There would be no need for gun control.

Every time I say this somebody comes along and say's...well this Christian did this or this Christian did that so therefore it doesn't work. Excuse me... it didn't work because they didn't do it! That's not the fault of Jesus Christ....that's OUR fault. keep heading the direction your heading America. Take away the guns it will solve nothing. The devil knows he don't need guns.....He just needs us to blindly continue to take God out of society.

From: sleepyhunter
06-Nov-17
""I wonder if he would have came to the same conclusion , if the murderer was Muslim with the same domestic motives""

Why not? Muslium's can have mental health issues and not be a radical. Anyone can.

From: Annony Mouse
06-Nov-17

Annony Mouse's Link
Turns out that the Air Force Failed to Report Devin Kelley’s Criminal Information to FBI NICS Data Base. Kelly should not have been able to purchase any firearms, even if he lied on the 4473 form.

From: Gray Ghost
06-Nov-17
Why not? Muslium's can have mental health issues and not be a radical. Anyone can."

Exactly. Thanks for taking the bait.

So, is there truly a distinction between a insane mass murder and a sane terrorist? And who has the crystal ball to make that distinction?

Again, they are all insane terrorist murderers, IMO.

Matt

From: Annony Mouse
06-Nov-17
From AOS WRT the failure of the Air Force to submit data:

Texas Church Murderer Should Have Been Blocked From Buying Guns, But Bureaucratic Error Kept His Domestic Violence Charge Off His Record —Ace

FACT: We have so many laws and regulations regulating gun ownership that our bureaucrats routinely fail to keep up with the restricted list

CONCLUSION: Dangit, we need more gun laws!

So: buying the guns already was illegal, and it was just our well-oiled machine government's typical competence that permitted him to buy them due to his record not being entered into the federal background-check database.

An official at the Pentagon tells NPR's Tom Bowman that a mistake resulted in neither the arrest nor the conviction being listed in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, the database that would have flagged him as ineligible to purchase a firearm.

So we have two choices as to what we can do:

1. We can ride herd on these bureaucrats we're paying to do their jobs and, see if you can follow me here, actually make them do their jobs,, or be put out the door to look for a new one.

2. We can strip law-abiding citizens of more rights, so that the bureaucrats' jobs will be easier.

Well, given that the Constitution says nothing at all about guns but it does say it is a sacred right of government employees to do #LikeWhateverMan at their jobs, obviously we have to go with Option 2.

From: Annony Mouse
06-Nov-17
From Weasel Zippers... Via KBHS:

Stephen Willeford shot and chased the man who killed 26 people in a Texas church on Sunday. He spoke to 40/29 News in an exclusive sit-down interview on Monday.

Willeford was at home when his daughter came into his bedroom to tell him she heard gunshots at the First Baptist Church nearby.

Willeford, a former NRA instructor, got his rifle out of his safe while his daughter looked outside again. She ran back in and told him she saw a man in black tactical gear shooting up the church.

“I kept hearing the shots, one after another, very rapid shots – just ‘pop pop pop pop’ and I knew every one of those shots represented someone, that it was aimed at someone, that they weren’t just random shots,” Willeford said.”

Willeford loaded his magazine and ran across the street to the church, not even taking the time to put on shoes. When Willeford saw the gunman, he exchanged gunfire.

“He saw me and I saw him,” Willeford said. “I was standing behind a pickup truck for cover.”

“I know I hit him,” Willeford said. “He got into his vehicle, and he fired another couple rounds through his side window. When the window dropped, I fired another round at him again.”

The gunman then sped down the highway.

Willeford spotted a pickup truck at a stop sign. He ran to the truck and asked the driver for help.

“That guy just shot up the Baptist church. We need to stop him,” Willeford told the driver.

Willeford and the driver chased the gunman down the highway. On the way, they called 911 to give a description of the gunman’s vehicle and where they were.

Eventually, they caught up to the gunman’s truck. The gunman slowed down before speeding up and hitting a road sign. The gunman’s truck flipped and went down into a ditch.

Keep reading…

According to Willeford’s cousin, there’s more.

Via Daily Caller:

When Stephen arrived to the church, Kelley had come outside and seemed to be reloading. Stephen noticed that Kelley was wearing a body armor vest, so he decided to aim for Kelley’s side.

“That’s where he shot him the first time,” Leonard said. “The man dropped the weapon when he was shot and went and forced his way into an SUV and he pushed him into the passenger side.”

“As he was doing that, Stephen shot him again in the neck….and that’s when Stephen shot him a third time in the neck again,” he continued.

They then chased him off the road.

From: sleepyhunter
06-Nov-17
""Exactly. Thanks for taking the bait.""

Sorry but no. Your opinion is wrong. It's narrow minded on your part GG to assume the Texas shooter was a terrorist. He was not. Was he a cruel hell bound murderer? Yes.

From: elkmtngear
06-Nov-17
GG, when an Islamic Terrorist is fed from Birth "Death to the Infidel", and takes a rifle or suicide vest into a situation, knowing in his heart of hearts that Paradise and Glory awaits him on the other side as reward for his actions, I do not believe he or she is insane. Unless you wish to label all members and believers in the Caliphate as insane. Their "sanity" might not fit the mold of Western Society, but, they are absolutely in their right mind.

Their was no "Martyrdom" associated with the Texas shooting. Nothing on the other side, because it appears the guy was an Atheist. This was just a guy with anger issues, that finally cracked.

From: Woods Walker
06-Nov-17
What's sad and tragic is that he apparently "cracked" WAAAY before he shot up the church. Anyone that beats his wife and splits his baby's head open cracked a long time before that.

Someone(s) in the Air Force has/have got some 'splainin' to do. I wonder how many other nutjobs are out there that were able to LEGALLY purchase firearms because the government screwed up.......again......

From: bad karma
06-Nov-17
Well, I won't make too much hay about that. He could have always found a stolen rifle. I'm not convinced background checks do anything except annoy the hell out of the decent people who buy guns.

From: Bentstick81
06-Nov-17
Good post BK.

From: Woods Walker
06-Nov-17
Good point, but this does deflate the anti-gunners argument a bit. I mean, THEIR mantra failed because this guy was able to legally purchase a firearm. And on the other side of the coin he was prevented from doing further killing by a good guy with a legal firearm, who also happens to be a former NRA instructor. The libs have got to be throwing up in their mouths over that one.

From: BIG BEAR
06-Nov-17
I agree Karma... What difference does it make if he should legally been able to get a gun to commit a mass murder ??

From: Woods Walker
06-Nov-17
But if the SYSTEM had worked like it's supposed to, he WOULDN'T have been able to legally purchase a gun. He still may have, but it wouldn't be with a legal gun. But to the people who were killed I guess that's a moot point. Dead is dead.

From: BIG BEAR
06-Nov-17
You're arguing against yourself..... you say that no gun laws are going to stop this.... but he shouldn't have been able to get a gun....Yes.... It's a moot point...... The only thing that matters in regards to guns in this horrific tragedy is that a law abiding citizen with a gun shot that son of a bitch...... hopefully in the future every church in America will have people in their congregation carrying pistols to at least give their flock some protection from madmen like this.

From: Shuteye
06-Nov-17
He wouldn't have been allowed to purchase a gun if the military had passed on his record like they were supposed to have done. Paper work error. He wouldn't show up on the background check since the information wasn't put into the system.

BTW, the guy that shot the killer was an NRA instructor. The killer was hit three or four times by a AR 15 that the instructor was using. 276 times last year a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun.

From: TD
06-Nov-17
Logically a moot point. As a counter to the left demanding more and tighter laws...... kinda blows em out of the water.....

06-Nov-17
The only post in this whole thread that describes what would have stopped him was shade mt.

From: BIG BEAR
06-Nov-17
What would have stopped him was his momma having aborted that son of a bitch...... just saying.

From: Woods Walker
06-Nov-17
BINGO! Where's Planned Infanticide when you really need them?

From: HA/KS
06-Nov-17
The obama administration did not want federal departments to report information to the background check database. Cruz and others tried to pass legislation to force the feds to report to the database, but the dems killed it.

He lied on his application (a felony), but again the obama administration only prosecuted less that one of 1000 who lied on the forearms purchase application.

Obama administration and the dems in congress own a lot of this.

From: K Cummings
07-Nov-17
"So, is there truly a distinction between a insane mass murder and a sane terrorist? And who has the crystal ball to make that distinction?"

Yes, the distinction is motive. No crystal ball needed, just the law and of course a little common sense.

KPC

From: K Cummings
07-Nov-17

K Cummings's Link
"It’s ironic after all the attacks on the NRA by the left in the past 24 hours and it was the NRA who stopped him. It was the big government’s mistake that allowed him to buy guns — another cruel irony."

Something to think about.

KPC

From: Gray Ghost
07-Nov-17
The U.S. Code defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"

So, a homegrown mass murderer, described as a "militant atheist", shoots up a church full of religious worshippers, and somehow, it's immediately concluded he had a "domestic" motive and was mentally ill, but not a terrorist. And who is the brilliant mind-reader who made that determination? Did he interview the killer, beforehand?

Exactly how does this killer NOT fit the definition of a terrorist?

Matt

From: Sixby
07-Nov-17
Quote: HA/KS, The obama administration did not want federal departments to report information to the background check database. Cruz and others tried to pass legislation to force the feds to report to the database, but the dems killed it. He lied on his application (a felony), but again the obama administration only prosecuted less that one of 1000 who lied on the forearms purchase application.

Bingo!!!!!!! It is literally Obama and his administrations fault. Obama fired every General and high officer in the military that was remotely known to be conservative so that he could pass his Sodomite agenda and other weakening policies in the military. First thing he did was order beanies from China so that all soldiers could look like Green Berets and Europeans. Then he demoralized the military by insisting on integration so females and Sodomites into combat units. Next he ordered the military to pay for sex changes. Now we hear that orders were given to stop reporting to civilian officials military criminal offences and imprisonment. This guy beat his wife and baby so badly that the baby almost died from head injurys including a skull fracture. But the military which would not prosecute the Ft., Hood shooter as a terrorist rather called it workplace violence, gave this guy a sentence as if he stole some hubcaps and then did not report his crimes to the civil authorities. This almost seems like an agenda to allow criminals , violent criminals to get firearms when the return to the public sector so that they can commit heinous crimes. Can you say future gun confiscation when the Clinton administration came into office? But hey, that just another conspiracy theory . Right??????????

God bless, Steve

From: shade mt
07-Nov-17
Has anyone stopped to consider that if your off in the head far enough to pre-meditate or commit murder.......You obviously could care less about breaking gun laws? And you obviously will purchase a gun regardless. People break laws all the time!! Does law stop it? I mean think about it. Somebody wants to commit murder...Ya think he's going to say..."well I'm not allowed to have that type of gun so I won't get one" ?

Truth is you pass laws to prohibit guns. And law abiding citizens will grudgingly obey. The only ones that will have guns....will be the criminals intending to do harm.

From: shade mt
07-Nov-17
Along with my above post. This country needs to quit thinking and talking about KILLING! The bad guys are committing murder....the good guys are talking about killing the bad guys...the media is talking about killing, you pick up a NRA magazine and all you ever see is weapons used for killing people, self defense ect..ect.. Folks practice shooting at people silhouette's...We are entertained by filth and murder.

And we wonder why a nut case cracks and commits murder ?

I am a hunter....to me a gun or bow is a tool used for hunting. I hope and pray I never have to use one as a weapon, to protect. I certainly do not want to dwell on it or think about it.

From: K Cummings
07-Nov-17
"And who is the brilliant mind-reader who made that determination?"

How about the people who actually have access to all the available evidence in the case?

I know you said that you love irony Matt, and in that vein, don't think it went unnoticed that when you thought it served your purpose, you insisted that there was no legally binding definition of terrorism. Now, when you think it serves your purpose, you actually quote the legally binding definition of terrorism.

*****

" But hey, that just another conspiracy theory . Right??????????

Correct.

KPC

From: K Cummings
07-Nov-17

K Cummings's Link
Interestingly enough, even some lefties recognize and understand the difference between terrorism and other acts of crime.

"Although acts of war, acts of crime and acts of terror can look very much alike on the surface, they have very different motives, very different reasons for being, and I think that's why people are confused,” said Robin Lakoff, a linguist at the University of California, Berkeley, in a 2015 NPR interview. "They look alike on the surface; they're different underneath.”

KPC

From: Bowfreak
07-Nov-17
Yes it is an issue with mental health but more importantly it is a heart issue. How separated from God must someone be to act like this? Humans are evil and “None is righteous, no, not one;

no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

From: tonyo6302
07-Nov-17
Taking prayer out of school in the '60s surely adds to the harvest we reap.

From: Bentstick81
07-Nov-17
The U.S, Code definition of Terrorism, Sounds like The Democrat Party, and their followers. Look at them goons at a Republican Speech, the way they treat police trying to up hold the law, and a dem can't tell the truth. Look at them on here, they prove it daily.

From: Gray Ghost
07-Nov-17
"I know you said that you love irony Matt, and in that vein, don't think it went unnoticed that when you thought it served your purpose, you insisted that there was no legally binding definition of terrorism."

Quit being disingenuous, Kevin. I said there is no universal legally binding definition of terrorism. And there isn't.

So, it's the people who have access to the evidence in the case who can read a man's mind after he's dead, eh? I also note, the first non-terrorist determinations I saw came only a few hours after the incident. Boy, these mind readers are good.

Is it possible this killer's hate for "stupid religious people" had something to do with his motive? If so, is that not a social objective against a segment of our civilian population?

Matt

From: K Cummings
07-Nov-17
"Quit being disingenuous, Kevin. I said there is no universal legally binding definition of the terrorism. And there isn't."

Quit being daft Matt.

I know very well what you said, and that's why it was dismissed it out of hand. Why would anyone in the US, especially law enforcement, be concerned one iota about anyone else's definition of terrorism other than our own? The only laws that are "legally binding" in the US are US laws. When we start operating under "universal" law, I'll be concerned about what the universal definition is.

"So, it's the people who have access to the evidence in the case who can read a man's mind after he's dead, eh? I also note, the first non-terrorist determinations I saw came only a few hours after the incident. Boy, these mind readers are good.

Is it possible this killers hate for "stupid religious people" had something to do with his motive? If so, is that not a social objective against a segment of our society?"

Sure, anything is possible Matt, but I prefer to go by what the evidence shows.

I've read all kinds of reports from how he thought all religious people were stupid, yet other reports suggest he was a volunteer bible study teacher, an ANTIFA whacko, and even a recent convert to Islam.

I don't think one needs to be a mind reader, as much as a text reader and a legal record reader, as apparently he sent threatening texts to his ex in-laws just prior to the shooting, not to mention he has a long history of domestic violence, accusations of animal cruelty, rape and who knows what else.

All kinds of things are "possible" Matt, including Sixby's latest theory but the math doesn't appear to be that hard on this one, no matter how desperately you want it to be.

KPC

From: Annony Mouse
07-Nov-17

07-Nov-17

It's unfortunate that Mr Willeford has lost so many friends and neighbors, will have to deal with the stress from this incident and has to endure being hounded by the media. I hope that the sheriff's department can keep the media at bay so that he can at least attend funeral services in peace.

07-Nov-17
Beat me to it Jack!

From: Annony Mouse
07-Nov-17
HA! It's a great interview and worth listening to twice.

Note the intersection WRT the media in both of these videos. Here's Bill Whittle:

From: Gray Ghost
07-Nov-17
I want to grab Mr. Willeford and hug him for his heroism. What a beautifully humble, honest, and brave individual he is. A statue of him should be made and displayed in a very prominent spot.

Matt

From: Bowfreak
07-Nov-17
What a great American. If there can be anything positive come out of such a great tragedy, maybe it is simply that guys like this still exist.

From: bad karma
07-Nov-17
What Matt and Mark said. I can't add a thing to those comments.

From: shade mt
07-Nov-17
You know after watching the video, I couldn't help but to be sad not only for the church people...But also for this man that stepped up to the plate and simply did what he had to do. Nobody should have to go through that.

While this was going on my wife and I also sat with friends at a First Baptist church..I can't imagine...Don't want to imagine.

Evil isn't going away anytime soon. I wish everyone in our country would have a change of heart...that we'd Love instead of hate. But I also know that realistically it's not going to happen.

It bothers me, angers me that the liberal element of our society does all they can to strip this country of Godly principles, take prayer from our schools, remove the ten commandments, and then when evil rises up.....they try and strip our 2nd amendment right, and our ability to defend and protect.

What a mess .

From: K Cummings
07-Nov-17
shade mt:

While I agree with much of your post, I don't think the callousness of our society is confined to the "liberal element." As is witnessed here every day, there is more than enough of that in the "conservative element" as well.

I struggle with how to remedy it because I see our current President as one that is emboldening this callousness in our society, and at the same time I feel in many cases he has to take the tact that he is taking in order to expose what needs to be exposed if there is any chance of turning the ship around. We've seen where playing nice just doesn't work, and going along just to get along has actually made the problem worse.

Sadly, I think it is probably going to get worse before it gets better.

KPC

From: K Cummings
07-Nov-17
Just heard it reported on Fox news that the shooter, Devin Kelley, "escaped from a mental health facility in 2012."

If true, this would seem to bolster the theory that this man was indeed "mentally ill."

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
07-Nov-17
Jack.... You posted a video of an expert saying the media should minimize this as much as possible and only cover it locally......... Yet you were one of the ones demanding information from the media of weather it was a self inflicted gun shot wound or he was shot by the Good Samaritan........... Asking the media only to cover an incident like this locally so the killer doesn't get any fame or press coverage simply isn't going to happen........

From: Gray Ghost
07-Nov-17
shade mt,

It's not all doom and gloom, brother.

In the US, we've enjoyed a 2 decade long decline in homicides per 100,000 people. There's been a recent uptick in the last 2 years, but it still isn't even close to pre-2000 levels.

I think our "instant news" society has caused the perception things are worse. For example, I got a news alert on my phone about this shooting only moments after it happened. Of course, the internet blew up about it a few minutes later. It's in our face 24/7.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
07-Nov-17
In Jacks video.... the guy talks about how guns were more readily available when he was a kid.... but now mass shootings are occurring........ and the one reason that he failed to acknowledge and the single largest reason it has become commonplace in my opinion........ THE INTERNET......... I would bet the farm that each and every one of these perpetrators searches their radical websites and talks to like minded wackos on the internet....... it's not just a coincidence that there was no internet 30 years ago...

From: Gray Ghost
07-Nov-17
"If true, this would seem to bolster the theory that this man was indeed "mentally ill."

I don't think anyone has ever argued this killer wasn't "mentally ill." You, on the other hand, have maintained there's a distinction between a sane versus an insane mass murderer, depending on motive. I simply don't see that distinction.

On the "6 dead in NYC" thread you indicated that "only I knew what I was thinking" when I made a certain comment. Doesn't the same principle apply to a mass murderer? Do any of us really know what's going on in a person's head when he commits an act of evil? I don't think so.

Matt

From: elkmtngear
07-Nov-17

elkmtngear's Link
Matt,

See my explanation above of a "Sane Mass Murderer". By your definition...a large number of these on this list are insane (see link). This is just the last 30 days.

From: Gray Ghost
07-Nov-17
elkmtngear,

Let me try this one more time with a hypothetic example.

Let's say I was programmed from a young age to believe anyone who ate French fries was the embodiment of Satan, and should be slain for the sake of my religion. So, I shoot up a McDonald's believing my actions will be rewarded by my God. Am I an insane murderer, or a sane terrorist? And should my punishment reflect that distinction, if any?

Matt

From: TGbow
07-Nov-17
It's sad the anti gun crowd use a tradgedy to push their Marxist agenda.

what's even more sad is that folks actually think gun control is the answer.

Criminals dont obey the law, that's common sense.

From: HA/KS
07-Nov-17
Ted Cruz great interview.

From: K Cummings
07-Nov-17
Or how about this one Matt.

Let's say from the time of your birth, you were programmed to believe in a certain system of laws. Heck, let's say you even swore to your God and your people to uphold that system of laws. Now, somewhere along the way, you felt a group of people were threatening that system of laws so you dropped a bomb on them, killing thousands upon thousands of them, many of them innocents, in an attempt to get them to back off. Would that make you insane?

KPC

From: Gray Ghost
07-Nov-17
No, Kevin, that would make me a survivalist.

Matt

From: K Cummings
07-Nov-17
Are "survivalists" sane or insane? Does it take a mind reader to know?

Was Truman a Survivalist? How about Bin Laden?

KPC

From: Whitey
07-Nov-17
Insanity is not based off of your world view it’s based off of societies. That varies from country to country. For example the Japanese tend to forgive what people do when drunk because they were not in their right mind at the time. Ours is the ability to understand right and wrong and the consequences of your actions at the time you took the action. However the way our law works There is nothing to stop you from killing someone there are a set of punishments or awards depending on when and how you do it.

From: Gray Ghost
07-Nov-17
"Was Truman a Survivalist? How about Bin Laden?"

Truman acted on behalf of those who put him in the position to make that decision. It was also a retaliatory strike that effectively ended the conflict.

Bin Laden also acted on behalf of those who put him there. The difference is, his strikes were to promote the conflict.

Matt

From: bigeasygator
07-Nov-17
Sane or insane. Terrorist or not a terrorist. While it's important to understand motivations, I couldn't care less what category we put people into. I think we can agree that in order to kill a bunch of innocent civilians all of these individuals hold a worldview that is beyond extreme and that is far, far, FAR outside the societal norms, be it the result of mental illness or a twisted interpretation of religious doctrine.

These events are absolute tragedies, but they get far more airplay and attention than they deserve and it creates an incredibly skewed view of the threats we face in this world -- be it from a radical Islamist terrorist or from a mentally unhinged white guy with an AR. The "if it bleeds it leads" philosophy of our news agencies and the 24 hour news cycle does not help things. Being so connected comes with some drawbacks.

From: Whitey
07-Nov-17

Whitey's Link

From: TD
07-Nov-17
Again, the "category" or motive is mostly necessary when formulating a plan to try and stop the actions or eliminate an enemy. "Why" cannot undo what has been done..... but in the right cases can possibly prevent the next attack.

From: K Cummings
07-Nov-17
I think if you asked Bin Laden, he would say that what he did was in retaliation of past attacks also, but that's beside the point.

I know why they both did what they did, but that wasn't my question.

Were they both survivalists? Were they both sane? Both insane? Both terrorists? After all, they both did what they did because they swore to their God and their people to uphold a certain system of laws.

KPC

From: Gray Ghost
07-Nov-17
"Were they both survivalists? Were they both sane? Both insane? Both terrorists?"

Yes. Don't know, Don't know. Depends on which side you are on. In that order.

Matt

From: Whitey
07-Nov-17
In Religious law killing is one thing murder is another. Soldiers kill madmen murder.

From: BIG BEAR
07-Nov-17
OK.... so a lot of arguing about what category to put a mass murder into.... terrorist or insane madman..... To formulate a plan to prevent the next attack........ So.... Tell me a plan to stop either...... ???

From: TGbow
07-Nov-17
More armed law abiding citizens.

From: BIG BEAR
07-Nov-17
Bingo !!!!

From: TGbow
07-Nov-17
Take our capital, DC. Very strict gun control laws. Very high crime. A criminal will probably assume most folks wont be packing, so they're easy prey. In Alabama, different story. I dont believe the rhetoric the main stream media pumps out or the slanted stastistics about how gun control reduced crime in countries like Australia, Great Britain, ect. I can think for myself and when I think about it for myself I come up with the conclusion that if 30 people out of 50 are packing in a particular situation where a criminal wants to do harm...the chances of the thug being stopped are much greater than if the law abiding citizens are in a gun controled area. I did say law abiding because they are the ones that will be disarmed, unless you live in Australia or GB where the criminals there obey the gun control laws...dont think so.

07-Nov-17
shade mt already told you the only thing that is going to stop this. It irritates me that people dismiss that. That arrogance has what allowed this to get to this point. I realize that you nor I can force Jesus Christ upon anyone. But, that doesn't make it right to force me to be subject to mindless violence and danger. Or, infringe on my 2A right.

Since the beginning, men have done things like this with the "easiest" weapon they had available. Proof that the weapon is not to blame. Only human nature. With guns being so readily available, it is simply the easy choice for these mad men. If they theoretically could be confiscated, these people will then move along to the next "easiest" tool to commit their deeds. Putting a band aid on a gunshot wound would be the equivalent to gun control laws to stop this human condition. So, the realistic answer is there are no solutions that government can inflict to change these happenings.

We must persevere as our AMERICAN founders intended, if we intend to resemble the country they so brilliantly outlined. No alternatives. No further laws. Its time to make Americans to act like........ AMERICANS. God Bless men

From: BIG BEAR
07-Nov-17
WV...... While I respect your religious beliefs.... I disagree with you saying that the only thing that is going to stop this is your religious beliefs...... I'm not a really religious person.... And I'm not a threat to anyone..... Period. Buhdists that I have had contact with are not a threat to anyone.... My Jewish neighbors are no threat to ever harm anyone......And yes ...... My Muslim brother Police Officers who are my friends are not a threat to anyone.... In fact.... They put their lives on the line every day to enforce the laws of the State of Michigan and the United States of America.....

From: Gray Ghost
08-Nov-17
Until society decides that violence isn't a remedy to conflict, and ingrains that into their young, it will never change.

Hell, in many mays we worship violence. Kids grow up thinking fictional characters like John Rambo actually exist, and they idolize them. They play video games that simulate the most violent behavior imaginable. Even our most popular sports encourage violence.

It will take a complete change in mentality, from old to young, to slow violent behavior. As I said earlier, we did exactly that for 2 decades. Homicide rates fell almost in half. It pains me to see the recent rise, but we are still far better off than 25 years ago.

Matt

From: shade mt
08-Nov-17
Exactly, WV mountaineer.

I have NEVER believed it right to jam my belief down somebody's throat. Rarely does it work to force feed, always should be offered "free choice"

As I read down over the post, including my own, we all have "our" opinions people are interviewed and more opinions are formed based on "their" thoughts on the matter. We argue over what is right and wrong, pass laws based on what or how "we" think. Muslims think they are right, so they kill innocent "infidels" taught from young on up. Atheist think there is no GOD so they base their actions on how "they" think. What is the definition of an "insane" person? Does that really depend on who you ask?

What is right?....What is wrong? Does that also just depend on who you ask? And if it does, then is there really any Right or wrong?....Doesn't take long before you start to realize it does not work, will not ever work, and will only produce confusion.

Just like the simple mathematical truth that 2+2=4 There is only ONE way, ONE correct way regardless of what you or I say. We could all decide that 2+2= something else, but it will never mathematically work.

The same is true for mankind. It does NOT matter what you or I think or believe. My idea of right and wrong doesn't matter, nor does yours. These things are already established and cannot be changed, regardless of nationality or belief.

There is only ONE way, ONE truth. accept it or reject it. It will not change. It is "steadfast and unmovable"

The New testament gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm not here to force feed it. Read it, examine it. I'm convinced that no man can deny it's truth and its benefit to mankind.

If the world would suddenly all govern and conduct themselves in accordance to it, and not try to change it, or isolate just part of it, or do whatever suits...What a different world it would be.

"At the end of the road, we will meet God" You may deny it....but you will never change it.

From: K Cummings
08-Nov-17
"Until society decides that violence isn't a remedy to conflict, and ingrains that into their young, it will never change. Hell, in many mays we worship violence. Kids grow up thinking fictional characters like John Rambo actually exist, and they idolize them. They play video games that simulate the most violent behavior imaginable. Even our most popular sports encourage violence."

Good points all.

My wife and I were having this discussion just the other day. We have become such a confrontational society, and I don't how it happened. We were heading out to our cabin and had the cruise set on exactly the speed limit. Apparently that wasn't fast enough for the young "lady" behind us (I'm guessing early 20's). The first opportunity she had, she passed us and flipped me the finger as she went by. Really?

Where is all this anger, lack of respect, and confrontation coming from?

KPC

08-Nov-17
Big bear, I know you aren’t a religious person. Because you are ignorant of what I’ve said. List people misunderstand it as religion. And, to put your faith in mankind Demonstrates that. It always has and always will lead to failure to trust human nature alone.

A relationship with Christ is personal. And the opposite of religion. That’s just the way it is and, if you don’t have it, you won’t understand it.

As in all of humanity, there has always been a small few that act irrationally. Suggesting that you aren’t a radical mass murder as proof “religion”.isn’t required is my point. A relationship with Jesus Christ is.

God Bless men

From: Shuteye
08-Nov-17
We know everything imaginable about the Texas church shooting yet the mass murder in Nevada remains a mystery.

From: K Cummings
08-Nov-17
"And, to put your faith in mankind Demonstrates that. It always has and always will lead to failure to trust human nature alone."

In my opinion, this is HUGE WVM, and precisely why more gun laws will never stop these things from happening. What more proof do we need?

Let's face it. We relied on the laws of man to keep guns away from this nut case. The laws were already in place, and those laws failed on so many different levels.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
08-Nov-17
WV...... Watch the movie Spotlight...... It's a true story of the Boston Globe uncovering a massive epidemic of Catholic Priests raping young men and The Church's systemic cover up of the problem. It's really very eye opening how widespread it had become......Each one of those Priests had a relationship with Christ........ You say you don't like to push your religion onto other people but here you are doing just that. My Jewish neighbors aren't going to become mass murderers.... Their Rabbi isn't raping young men..... And they just happen to believe that Jesus is not the son of God......... I really don't care what your religion is.... as long as you are a peaceful law abiding good citizen..... Peace and Amen brother......

From: sleepyhunter
08-Nov-17
"" Apparently that wasn't fast enough for the young "lady" behind us (I'm guessing early 20's). The first opportunity she had, she passed us and flipped me the finger as she went by. Really?""

LOL. The same thing has happened to me. I just laugh and wave back. They really hate that.

From: Whitey
08-Nov-17
Big Bear , pedo priests in the Catholic Church represent the same percentage as those found in the general population. It was not epidemic and movies are not news sources. You don’t know what the Jews next door will do anymore that you know what thier Rabbi is doing if you told the truth. Man is an animal and will always behave that way. Laws , morals, religion, will never be able to override that they just contain it until the conditions allow his true nature to show.

From: BIG BEAR
08-Nov-17
That's a bunch of crap.... So you're telling me there's the same percentage of rapist among Priests as there are in the General population ??? That's messed up.... Priests are held to a higher standard..... so are Police Officers.... I'll bet you my retirement that there aren't the same percentage of rapists in the Police ranks as there are in the general public..... There should be ZERO rapists that are priests.... ZERO..... PERIOD...

From: Whitey
08-Nov-17
It’s true. If the sample is large enough the law of averages take over. We hold police and priests to a higher standard nature doesn’t.

From: BIG BEAR
08-Nov-17
But I do agree with you on the point that laws, morals and religion will never contain or stop mass murders from happening...... So my answer is to arm yourself.....

From: K Cummings
08-Nov-17
"That's a bunch of crap.... So you're telling me there's the same percentage of rapist among Priests as there are in the General population ???"

Why would that surprise you BB? Last I knew Priests (as well as all clergy, and law enforcement officers) are human beings, and subject to the exact same failings as all other human beings. They are not a deity, and should never be seen as one.

I suppose that you are going to tell me that on average, LEO's break less laws than the general population. If you think that, you are dreaming.

KPC

From: Glunt@work
08-Nov-17
If we could only get back the murder rates we had in the 50s....oh we are already there. Mass shootings have changed but murder rates have dropped back in the last 30 years

From: bad karma
08-Nov-17
And mass shootings would go down if we didn't have "pay for click" media. Since Silicon Valley owns a lot of the media now, they're into sensationalizing everything for the advertising revenue. And sick bastards see it, and dream of getting that notoriety. The nonstop stories in the press are a form of reward for these crazy folks, just as it 'rewards" the Islamic terrorists.

Reality is, even if the Sutherland Springs shooter had flunked a background check, he could have bought a stolen rifle. This background check failure wouldn't have stopped the crime. Background checks do little to stop crime, because there is always a stolen gun to be bought, or a legal gun to be stolen. The gangbangers in Big Bear's community aren't lining up at Cabelas to pick up a new SIG.

From: BIG BEAR
08-Nov-17
Violent crimes ?? Yes I would tell you that Police Officers commit less violent crimes than the general public..... Most Departments across the country have an extensive screening and hiring process..... involving psychological screening and testing......... background checks and more recently education requirements....... Sure..... some bad eggs slip through the cracks. Sure some Police Officers commit violent felonies..... But if YOU think Police Officers commit murder at the same rate as the general public then it is you who is dreaming......

From: DL
08-Nov-17
SUTHERLAND SPRINGS, Texas (Reuters) - The former U.S. serviceman who committed the deadliest mass shooting on record in Texas escaped from a mental hospital in 2012 as he faced court-martial on domestic violence charges for which he was later convicted, a police report revealed on Tuesday.

The report also disclosed that police who were alerted to Devin Kelley's escape were advised that he posed a "danger to himself and others" after being "caught sneaking firearms" onto the U.S. Air Force base in New Mexico where he was stationed. The person who reported the escape, according to the report, further warned that Kelley, then aged 21, had been "attempting to carry out death threats" against his military commanders and "suffered from mental disorders." He was apprehended without incident at an El Paso, Texas, bus station shortly after he had run off, according to a police report filed in that city. Kelley's troubled Air Force background has been a focus of investigators in the tiny Texas town of Sutherland Springs since he stormed into a church there on Sunday with a semi-automatic assault rifle and opened fire on worshipers. Authorities have said 26 people were killed in the assault, including the unborn child of a pregnant woman who was among the dead. Another 20 people were wounded, half of them still listed in critical condition as of Tuesday. Officials said Kelley, 26, killed himself during a failed getaway attempt after he was wounded by an armed civilian who tried to stop him. Two handguns belonging to the killer also were recovered. A major sporting goods dealer in San Antonio later confirmed that Kelley twice passed a required criminal background check when he bought guns there during the past year, despite having a criminal record that should have prevented those purchases. Kelley was found guilty by court-martial in 2012 of assaulting his first wife and a stepson while serving at Holloman Air Force Base, where he was assigned to a logistics readiness unit, the Pentagon reported on Monday. But the Air Force also acknowledged it inexplicably failed to enter his conviction into a government database that all licensed firearms dealers are required to use to screen prospective gun buyers for their criminal history. Federal law prohibits anyone from selling a gun to someone who has been convicted of a crime involving domestic violence against a spouse or child. On Capitol Hill, the Republican chairman of the U.S. House Armed Services Committee, Representative Mac Thornberry of Texas, called the failure to transmit Kelley's record into the National Criminal Information Center (NCIC) system an "appalling" lapse. The Air Force has opened an inquiry into the matter, and the U.S. Defense Department has requested a review by its inspector general to ensure other criminal cases have been reported correctly, Pentagon officials said. Two U.S. senators, Republican Jeff Flake of Arizona and Democratic Martin Heinrich of New Mexico, said they planned to co-sponsor legislation aimed at ensuring that anyone convicted of domestic violence, whether in civilian or military court, would be blocked from legally purchasing a gun. Firearms experts said the case involving Kelley, who spent a year in military detention before his bad-conduct discharge from the Air Force in 2014, exposed a previously unnoticed weak link in the system of background checks. BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS AS STUDENT Texas public school records also showed Kelley had numerous behavior problems as a student, including nine suspensions for such issues as drugs, insubordination, profanity, skipping classes and dishonesty between sixth grade and high school graduation. His private adult life appears to have likewise been marked by turbulence. After divorcing the woman he was convicted of assaulting, Kelley remarried in 2014, but authorities have said he became embroiled in some unspecified domestic dispute with her parents that involved him sending threatening text messages to his mother-in-law. Kelley's in-laws occasionally attended services at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs but were not there when he attacked worshipers during Sunday prayers, authorities said. "We have some indication of what the conflict was between the family," Freeman Martin, spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, told a Tuesday news conference. It was not clear what role, if any, the dispute played as a motivating factor in Sunday's violence. Kelley's cell phone was sent to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's crime lab at Quantico, Virginia, but specialists were not immediately able to gain electronic access to the device, said Christopher Combs, the FBI's special agent in charge in San Antonio.

From: Gray Ghost
08-Nov-17
Sounds like this kid was a bad apple from a young age.

I'd be interested in hearing about his parents. I can't help thinking they failed somewhere along the line.

Matt

From: HA/KS
08-Nov-17
I for one believe that a smaller percent of police commit violent crimes than occurs in the general population. It is not because only good guys want to be cops, but because the process weeds out a lot of bad ones.

From: BIG BEAR
08-Nov-17
And I don't believe that because they are human like everyone else.... that priests commit crimes at the same rate as the general public.... I would bet that the murder rate among priests is far lower than the general public....... It's my opinion that sexual assault among priests is a result of celibacy...... I'm not trying to turn this thread into another direction...... I'm simply responding to someone posting that adhering to their religious beliefs is the answer to stopping mass murders in America....

From: BIG BEAR
08-Nov-17
Let me clarify my thoughts on religion as the solution to violence. I feel that if a person makes a commitment to go to church every Sunday.... They are making an effort to be a good person. If every single person in the country went to church.... I think our incidents of violence would be far less. But I could say the same for my Jewish and Bhudist neighbors.... If every single person in America went to Jewish services religiously... I think the result would be the same..... That's not to say that I believe you HAVE to go to services every Sunday in order to live a peaceful law abiding life of course....

08-Nov-17
BB, you are misunderstanding what I'm writing. No doubt due to my inability to express it well enough. Whatever you do, don't blame Jesus Christ for the priests actions. He didn't do it. The priest's did by diverting back to their nature.

Truth is, you, me, or anyone else knows what their spouse, neighbors, or even themselves are capable of if they allow evil to manifest into their heart. Just know that A heart without the holy spirit is HUMAN NATURE defined. God Bless men

From: Sixby
08-Nov-17
We are repulsed by this man and his acts yet a large segment of people in this nation support full term abortion and partial birth abortion. In fact our Democrat, Married to a man, Lesbian Governor here in Oregon just passed legislation which fully funds full term abortion for any woman or girl wanting one on our taxpayer dime. This in effect makes every citizen in Oregon an abortion supporter. Where is the outrage? Both are terrible and this mass murder is abhorable but is it less abhorable to kill full term helpless babies than it is to shoot children and a pregnant woman bty 8 mo. and I have not heard that the baby is even counted in the dead? I am sure that most of us condemn both and I am very postive that God hates them both.

God bless, Steve

From: TGbow
08-Nov-17
Sixby, regardless of ones political or religious beliefs, it's a sad day in America when an animal has more protection than an innocent child. They dont realize, or dont care, that the Constitution is suppose to protect the innocent. Courst are ruling according to past practices vs the Constitution. What good is the Constitution if we pass amendments and laws that contradict the very document thatvs suppose to protect us...and our prosterity. The founders understood that words on paper actually mean something.

From: Gray Ghost
09-Nov-17
This isn't an abortion thread, guys. Try to stay on topic, please.

Matt

From: TGbow
09-Nov-17
There's a lot of things that have been discussed that is not on topic. Just making the point that when we allow the murder of innocent children in out society, we shouldn't be surprised at what is happening in our culture.

From: Gray Ghost
09-Nov-17
Well, it could be argued that our society would have been better off, if this killer had been aborted. But, I still think that's irrelevant to the topic.

Matt

From: K Cummings
09-Nov-17
In an attempt to keep this thread on topic, if a person makes their living taking the lives of innocent children, would they be "insane, or a terrorist, or both?"

Either way, it's "F-ing tragic. My prayers are with all."

KPC

From: Gray Ghost
09-Nov-17
"In an attempt to keep this thread on topic, if a person makes their living taking the lives of innocent children, would they be "insane, or a terrorist, or both?"

That depends on what point you believe the union of a sperm and a egg becomes a "innocent child". I think that's a debate for another thread.

My point has remained, I don't think anyone has the crystal ball to determine what goes on in a killers head. Therefore, their punishment should be based on their actions, not some clairvoyant determination of their mental health. I'm tired of my tax dollars being spent to provide subsistence for killers who have been determined to be "insane" when they committed their crimes.

Matt

From: K Cummings
09-Nov-17
"That depends on what point you believe the union of a sperm and a egg becomes a "innocent child". I think that's a debate for another thread. "

I can understand why you wouldn't want the discussion to go in that direction Matt, and that's fine. It is interesting however, when things are looked at from various different perspectives, they often times don't seem so clear.

"My point has remained, I don't think anyone has the crystal ball to determine what goes on in a killers head. Therefore, their punishment should be based on their actions, not some clairvoyant determination of their mental health. I'm tired of my tax dollars being spent to provide subsistence for killers who have been determined to be "insane" when they committed their crimes."

Exactly, and thank you.

This is precisely why I think it would be a HUGE mistake to conflate "terrorism" with "mental illness." It is also "precisely why there is, and should be, a specific legal definition for "terrorism." It actually eliminates the need for the "crystal ball" that you speak of.

Once we start considering "terrorists" mentally ill, we will be forced to do exactly what you don't want. I don't want to treat terrorists, I want to punish them.

That has been my argument all along.

Ironically (I know how you "love irony"), in the same way you don't want your tax dollars providing sustenance for killers who have been determined to be insane, there are many who don't want their tax dollars providing for the extermination of innocent lives that they believe began at conception.

Another sad example of this irony, is that one of the victims of this horrendous shooting was indeed an unborn child, or as some would describe a "mass of cells." Had this "mass of cells" been the only death in this shooting, I wonder what most would want this animal charged with? Murder?

KPC

From: Gray Ghost
09-Nov-17
Kevin,

You stated earlier the evidence suggests this Texas killer was mentally ill. Had he survived, and his counsel was able to convince a jury of that, it's likely he would have received something less than the death penalty. And the rest of us would have had to support him, probably for the rest of his life.

I think that would have been a injustice to the people he murdered, their family and friends, and to society in general. Insane, or not, I think anyone who commits an evil act like this should receive the death penalty.

Matt

From: bad karma
09-Nov-17
Except in Texas and Florida, it's damn near impossible to get the death penalty. So, there is little difference between life in prison or life in a mental institution for the criminally insane. It's been litigated out of existence.

From: K Cummings
09-Nov-17
Again Matt, what you are saying now is precisely why we should NEVER fall into the trap of conflating "terrorism" with "mental illness."

That was my argument from day one...over a week ago. It was the reason why I got involved in this aspect of the discussion:

"Matt:

Not that it matters much to the victims, but in my opinion there actually is a difference between the actions of a terrorist and that of a psychopath/sociopath, and we should never confuse them.

A terrorist uses violence in the pursuit of political or "religious" aims.

By labeling every psychopath and sociopath a terrorist, you in effect "normalize" terrorism, and you make it harder to identify and eradicate the true perpetrators.

Yes, there is some overlap but it is a huge mistake to conflate the two. These people are NOT mentally ill. They are lucid, intelligent and as passionate about their religion (or twisted political version thereof) as any Christian, Jew or Buddhist is of theirs. To them, these are NOT acts of violence but acts of worship.

The left would like nothing more than to lump all these people together. They want nothing more than to say that this isn't a radical Muslim thing, but a mental illness thing, and that any one of your neighbors is just as likely to commit a terrorist act as a radical Muslim."

*****

" Next thing you know we will be "treating" them with the intent to rehabilitate. Good luck with that. "

You are making my argument for me. Now that we agree, I see no reason to continue this.

Have a nice day.

KPC

From: Gray Ghost
09-Nov-17
No, KPC, I think we are basically arguing the same thing. If you recall, one of my earliest comments was that the insanity plea for mass murderers is "hog wash".

If we took the whole mental health distinction out of the equation, there would be no danger of convoluting it with terrorism. Any mass murderer would then be prosecuted the same way.

Now, don't confuse that with the necessary precautions we need to address international terrorism versus homegrown mass murderers. That's obviously a different matter. I just think the penalty should be the same for both crimes, with no distinction made due to mental health, or lack thereof.

Matt

From: Whitey
09-Nov-17

Whitey's embedded Photo
Whitey's embedded Photo
Whitey's embedded Photo
Whitey's embedded Photo
Check out this chart from the FBI homocide report released in sept . Honest people will see one thing and liberal apologists will see another.

From: Sixby
10-Nov-17
I was not attempting to turn this into an abortion thread. What I am saying is this. We have such a corruption of morality that many become hardened enough to not see that an almost full term baby was killed. So many that the death of the baby was not even counted . This is no more deviant of the thread than your continual arguementation of mentally stable or lunacy, Normality or abnormality. My take is this, anyone that will murder another human being is mentally disturbed. This should never make then unaccountable. But there are so many societal problems today that I see hundreds if not thousands of young people that should be receiving mental health treatment including young soldiers with ptsd that are instead walking the streets and sleeping under cardboard boxes. There are literally no mental institutions or mental health assistance programs for them. I guess there is one mental hospital. This murderer escaped for one. Right now I am praying for the 20 soldiers a day that are committing suicide. What a crying, stinking, shame to this nation. God bless, Steve

From: TGbow
10-Nov-17
Right on Steve!

From: Annony Mouse
10-Nov-17
More Guns, Less Democrats.

Problem solved. ;o)

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