F-ing tragic. My prayers are with all.
Wonder what we get to fill the blank in with this time.
Such a tragedy. Thoughts are with all those affected.
Thoughts and prayers to the those and family members.
Common sense is Wwwway Overdue!!!
Normal people do NOT! do such things. About time this country gets back to some good old fashioned RIGHT! and WRONG! Some people don't even know right from wrong anymore. The word is "reprobate" and once you lose the ability to distinguish and discern right from wrong? wake up America.
That was a tongue in cheek reference to the "6 Killed in New York" thread. Some people feel there's a distinction between a insane mass murderer and a sane terrorist. I called that "hog wash", and spent three days defending my position.
I still maintain they are all insane terrorist murderers.
Guns aren't violent. Shame on you to take a trajedy and instantly politicize it...
Do you really want to engage someone who can't form sentences above a 3rd grade level? Apparently, 3rd grade grammar class was the hardest 6 years of his life.
And some fear the Muslim boogie man more? Hmmm....
Update 5:55 p.m.: Texas Department of Public Safety Region 6 Director Freeman Martin told reporters during a press conference that a local resident engaged the shooter with his own weapon. Devin Kelley then dropped his Ruger AR-15 rifle and got in his car to leave. The resident pursued Kelley’s vehicle until it crashed. Police found Kelley dead inside his vehicle. It is not clear if he shot himself or if the resident shot him, Martin stated."
Regrettably, I think that's the only solution. Until society quits programming it's young that violence is a remedy to disputes, our only defense is arming ourselves.
Jesus, I hate hanging my Glock on my belt every day. But, if that's what it takes.....
Ergo...no new gun laws could have prevented this act.
If everyone in that church was open carrying, I guarantee this coward would have second guessed his choice of targets. I say don't ever *not* push open carry. We're all safer if sane people are openly armed and know how to use them.
Unfortunately, the press to keep weapons out of the hands of the citizenry will continue to provide us with events such as this.
Don't know yet, but I'd bet psych meds will be in the mix with this person.
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein
He was dishonorably discharged and imprisoned for 12 months for beating his wife and kid.
The story I saw he dropped his AR15 and ran to his car when a civilian with a shotgun confronted him... which seems to be typical of these mentally ill mass shooters. Armed resistance scares them back into their hole.
Motive will tell. We may never know.
Muslim kills people, it’s us vs Islam, he’s “an animal” and policies must be implemented immediately even if it’s unconstitutional.
Strange how that happens.
Has anyone confirmed how he died? Suicide? Did the police cap him? Or did the citizen who chased him down have that pleasure?
Also being reported is that the shooters in-laws may have been members of the church, however they were not attending.
I'm curious. How do you think your local church goers will feel about carrying in a place of worship? No one will bat an eye in my neck of the woods, but I can envision that being a problem in some churches.
So to be lawful here, one must talk to the Pastor/Priest/Clergy and get permission.
My church is rather schizophrenic on the subject. There is a sign on our front door that says no guns allowed on premises...yet we have at least one LEO that carries at every service.
That way if a terrorist, or some deranged psychopath decides to try anything, at least we aren't all sitting ducks.
Authorities are playing this close to the vest, but it seems likely that Kelly was shot by an armed citizen and died from his wounds while fleeing.
A little information about carry in a place of worship:
According to concealedcarry.com, there are two states that ban concealed carry in churches, Nebraska and Louisiana. Nebraska allows a church to authorize an armed security team if the team members have carry permits and if written notice is given to church members. Louisiana law is similar, but requires an extra eight hours of training every year. Seven states and D.C. that require the permission of a church leader to conceal carry firearms in church, and 41 states where carry in churches is treated the same as any other private property.
Of the 41 states that treat churches the same as other private property, eight are "may issue" states, where the permit issuing authority can deny the exercise of the Second Amendment for almost any reason. Those states are California, Delaware, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island. Within these states, the issuance of permits ranges from almost none in Hawaii and New Jersey, to fairly large numbers, as in upstate New York and Massachusetts.
There are 13 states that do not require a permit to carry concealed. They are Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Vermont, Wyoming, and West Virginia.
Open carry is legal in most states. Only five states prohibit the open carry of holstered handguns in most public places. Those states are California, Florida, Illinois, New York and South Carolina. 26 States do not infringe on the right to openly carry firearms. Six states infringe on open carry in a few specific areas. Pennsylvania requires a permit for Philadelphia, Colorado requires a permit for Denver, and Iowa requires a permit inside city limits. The other three states allow localities to pass restrictions on open carry without a permit. 13 states require a permit for open carry.
In my experience, most people who carry in church carry concealed. There are churches where open carry is common and acceptable. In my church, The Vertical Church, in Yuma, Arizona, open carry is common and seen every Sunday. Many of the open carriers are on the church security detail. There are concealed carriers as well, but they are harder to count. People switch between open and concealed carry as is convenient.
In the early colonies, people were sometimes required to be armed at church. In "Origins and Development of the Second Amendment", I found a reference to colonial requirements to carry guns in church from the Virginia laws of arms bearing.
All men that are fitting to bear arms, shall bring their pieces to the church...
The law dated to 1631. David Hardy found it in the 1823 work by William Henning, "The Statutes at large, being a collection of all the laws of Virginia, Vol. 1 at 127, 173-174."
Those were perilous time in Virginia.
Church attendees are not attacked with the frequency that they were in the 1630's in Virginia. The United States today has a population tens of thousands of times greater than all the colonies in 1631. It seems like we are being attacked at a greater frequency because each attack is trumpeted over the entire nation, and our communication system is so good that everyone hears of every attack almost immediately.
Church attendees tend to be responsible people. It makes sense for those with knowledge of firearms to carry at church.
With the recent attacks on church attendees, the legal carry of firearms to church is bound to rise.
©2017 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice and link are included.
bad karma's Link
Let's turn the table on the damn gun control morons.
I'm not particularly worried about this part of the case. Since private citizens were involved, the story will get out. It does make me carry even when I normally might not, though.
Not everything is a conspiracy.
My first job was deiner (autopsy assistant) and I observed and learned the difference between self inflicted vs. shot by someone. Suicide would involve close contact which is much different than being shot from a distance just from appearance of the wound(s). It is also reported that citizen's shot during chase which would make any hits on Kelly from behind.
Hey...I'm not complaining at the results. I would hope that most of us here would have acted in a similar manner under circumstances like this.
^THIS is what the liberal Dems just cannot get through their thick skulls....the good guys with guns legally acquired aren't the problem. Bad guys will always be able to acquire illegal weapons....thankfully in this case there was an armed good guy.
It actually could be both.
The Texas church shooter had family connections to the church where he killed at least 26 on Sunday in what is now the worst mass shooting in the state’s history.
Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackett told the Today show Monday morning that Devin Patrick Kelley’s ex in-laws attended the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, where he unleashed a firestorm of bullets during Sunday morning service.
It was previously reported that Kelley’s wife Danielle was a former teacher at the school, and that her mother Michelle was a parishoner.
But the sheriff’s revelation that it was his ex in-laws who attended the church indicates that he and Danielle may have had a falling out.
Sheriff Tackett said the family was not at the church at the time of the shooting, but spoke to investigators yesterday after the massacre.
According the most recent press conference:
"...we want to get that out there that this was not racially motivated, it wasn't over religious beliefs, there was a domestic situation going on within the family..."
"At this time, we do not have a terrorism investigation open.
When places like Chicago can clean up their act, then a dialog can actually happen on the validity to "gun control"...
I'm betting there will be a change to how these types of crimes are reported and filed from here on out...
I wonder if he would have came to the same conclusion , if the murderer was Muslim with the same domestic motives.
The bowlibs would be having orgasams and the Closet Democrat would be denying he voted for the witch.
Woods Walker's Link
BULLSHIT! This loser was dishonorably discharged from the Air Force for beating his wife AND splitting open the skull of his baby stepson. Somehow the Air Force (under your boy Obama's reign) DIDN'T REPORT THIS TO THE FBI LIKE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO and he was able to pass his background checks. So go cram your BS where the sun doesn't shine.
Anyone ever think, maybe we hate to much? I'd love just ONCE!!! to hear a non believer tell me EXACTLY what is wrong with the New Testament Gospel of Jesus Christ. IF we all actually lived according to the New Testament and not just professed it THESE THINGS WOULDN"T HAPPEN!! There would be no need for gun control.
Every time I say this somebody comes along and say's...well this Christian did this or this Christian did that so therefore it doesn't work. Excuse me... it didn't work because they didn't do it! That's not the fault of Jesus Christ....that's OUR fault. keep heading the direction your heading America. Take away the guns it will solve nothing. The devil knows he don't need guns.....He just needs us to blindly continue to take God out of society.
Why not? Muslium's can have mental health issues and not be a radical. Anyone can.
Annony Mouse's Link
Exactly. Thanks for taking the bait.
So, is there truly a distinction between a insane mass murder and a sane terrorist? And who has the crystal ball to make that distinction?
Again, they are all insane terrorist murderers, IMO.
Texas Church Murderer Should Have Been Blocked From Buying Guns, But Bureaucratic Error Kept His Domestic Violence Charge Off His Record —Ace
FACT: We have so many laws and regulations regulating gun ownership that our bureaucrats routinely fail to keep up with the restricted list
CONCLUSION: Dangit, we need more gun laws!
So: buying the guns already was illegal, and it was just our well-oiled machine government's typical competence that permitted him to buy them due to his record not being entered into the federal background-check database.
An official at the Pentagon tells NPR's Tom Bowman that a mistake resulted in neither the arrest nor the conviction being listed in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, the database that would have flagged him as ineligible to purchase a firearm.
So we have two choices as to what we can do:
1. We can ride herd on these bureaucrats we're paying to do their jobs and, see if you can follow me here, actually make them do their jobs,, or be put out the door to look for a new one.
2. We can strip law-abiding citizens of more rights, so that the bureaucrats' jobs will be easier.
Well, given that the Constitution says nothing at all about guns but it does say it is a sacred right of government employees to do #LikeWhateverMan at their jobs, obviously we have to go with Option 2.
Stephen Willeford shot and chased the man who killed 26 people in a Texas church on Sunday. He spoke to 40/29 News in an exclusive sit-down interview on Monday.
Willeford was at home when his daughter came into his bedroom to tell him she heard gunshots at the First Baptist Church nearby.
Willeford, a former NRA instructor, got his rifle out of his safe while his daughter looked outside again. She ran back in and told him she saw a man in black tactical gear shooting up the church.
“I kept hearing the shots, one after another, very rapid shots – just ‘pop pop pop pop’ and I knew every one of those shots represented someone, that it was aimed at someone, that they weren’t just random shots,” Willeford said.”
Willeford loaded his magazine and ran across the street to the church, not even taking the time to put on shoes. When Willeford saw the gunman, he exchanged gunfire.
“He saw me and I saw him,” Willeford said. “I was standing behind a pickup truck for cover.”
“I know I hit him,” Willeford said. “He got into his vehicle, and he fired another couple rounds through his side window. When the window dropped, I fired another round at him again.”
The gunman then sped down the highway.
Willeford spotted a pickup truck at a stop sign. He ran to the truck and asked the driver for help.
“That guy just shot up the Baptist church. We need to stop him,” Willeford told the driver.
Willeford and the driver chased the gunman down the highway. On the way, they called 911 to give a description of the gunman’s vehicle and where they were.
Eventually, they caught up to the gunman’s truck. The gunman slowed down before speeding up and hitting a road sign. The gunman’s truck flipped and went down into a ditch.
According to Willeford’s cousin, there’s more.
Via Daily Caller:
When Stephen arrived to the church, Kelley had come outside and seemed to be reloading. Stephen noticed that Kelley was wearing a body armor vest, so he decided to aim for Kelley’s side.
“That’s where he shot him the first time,” Leonard said. “The man dropped the weapon when he was shot and went and forced his way into an SUV and he pushed him into the passenger side.”
“As he was doing that, Stephen shot him again in the neck….and that’s when Stephen shot him a third time in the neck again,” he continued.
They then chased him off the road.
Sorry but no. Your opinion is wrong. It's narrow minded on your part GG to assume the Texas shooter was a terrorist. He was not. Was he a cruel hell bound murderer? Yes.
Their was no "Martyrdom" associated with the Texas shooting. Nothing on the other side, because it appears the guy was an Atheist. This was just a guy with anger issues, that finally cracked.
Someone(s) in the Air Force has/have got some 'splainin' to do. I wonder how many other nutjobs are out there that were able to LEGALLY purchase firearms because the government screwed up.......again......
BTW, the guy that shot the killer was an NRA instructor. The killer was hit three or four times by a AR 15 that the instructor was using. 276 times last year a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun.
He lied on his application (a felony), but again the obama administration only prosecuted less that one of 1000 who lied on the forearms purchase application.
Obama administration and the dems in congress own a lot of this.
Yes, the distinction is motive. No crystal ball needed, just the law and of course a little common sense.
K Cummings's Link
Something to think about.
So, a homegrown mass murderer, described as a "militant atheist", shoots up a church full of religious worshippers, and somehow, it's immediately concluded he had a "domestic" motive and was mentally ill, but not a terrorist. And who is the brilliant mind-reader who made that determination? Did he interview the killer, beforehand?
Exactly how does this killer NOT fit the definition of a terrorist?
Bingo!!!!!!! It is literally Obama and his administrations fault. Obama fired every General and high officer in the military that was remotely known to be conservative so that he could pass his Sodomite agenda and other weakening policies in the military. First thing he did was order beanies from China so that all soldiers could look like Green Berets and Europeans. Then he demoralized the military by insisting on integration so females and Sodomites into combat units. Next he ordered the military to pay for sex changes. Now we hear that orders were given to stop reporting to civilian officials military criminal offences and imprisonment. This guy beat his wife and baby so badly that the baby almost died from head injurys including a skull fracture. But the military which would not prosecute the Ft., Hood shooter as a terrorist rather called it workplace violence, gave this guy a sentence as if he stole some hubcaps and then did not report his crimes to the civil authorities. This almost seems like an agenda to allow criminals , violent criminals to get firearms when the return to the public sector so that they can commit heinous crimes. Can you say future gun confiscation when the Clinton administration came into office? But hey, that just another conspiracy theory . Right??????????
God bless, Steve
Truth is you pass laws to prohibit guns. And law abiding citizens will grudgingly obey. The only ones that will have guns....will be the criminals intending to do harm.
And we wonder why a nut case cracks and commits murder ?
I am a hunter....to me a gun or bow is a tool used for hunting. I hope and pray I never have to use one as a weapon, to protect. I certainly do not want to dwell on it or think about it.
How about the people who actually have access to all the available evidence in the case?
I know you said that you love irony Matt, and in that vein, don't think it went unnoticed that when you thought it served your purpose, you insisted that there was no legally binding definition of terrorism. Now, when you think it serves your purpose, you actually quote the legally binding definition of terrorism.
" But hey, that just another conspiracy theory . Right??????????
K Cummings's Link
"Although acts of war, acts of crime and acts of terror can look very much alike on the surface, they have very different motives, very different reasons for being, and I think that's why people are confused,” said Robin Lakoff, a linguist at the University of California, Berkeley, in a 2015 NPR interview. "They look alike on the surface; they're different underneath.”
no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
Quit being disingenuous, Kevin. I said there is no universal legally binding definition of terrorism. And there isn't.
So, it's the people who have access to the evidence in the case who can read a man's mind after he's dead, eh? I also note, the first non-terrorist determinations I saw came only a few hours after the incident. Boy, these mind readers are good.
Is it possible this killer's hate for "stupid religious people" had something to do with his motive? If so, is that not a social objective against a segment of our civilian population?
Quit being daft Matt.
I know very well what you said, and that's why it was dismissed it out of hand. Why would anyone in the US, especially law enforcement, be concerned one iota about anyone else's definition of terrorism other than our own? The only laws that are "legally binding" in the US are US laws. When we start operating under "universal" law, I'll be concerned about what the universal definition is.
"So, it's the people who have access to the evidence in the case who can read a man's mind after he's dead, eh? I also note, the first non-terrorist determinations I saw came only a few hours after the incident. Boy, these mind readers are good.
Is it possible this killers hate for "stupid religious people" had something to do with his motive? If so, is that not a social objective against a segment of our society?"
Sure, anything is possible Matt, but I prefer to go by what the evidence shows.
I've read all kinds of reports from how he thought all religious people were stupid, yet other reports suggest he was a volunteer bible study teacher, an ANTIFA whacko, and even a recent convert to Islam.
I don't think one needs to be a mind reader, as much as a text reader and a legal record reader, as apparently he sent threatening texts to his ex in-laws just prior to the shooting, not to mention he has a long history of domestic violence, accusations of animal cruelty, rape and who knows what else.
All kinds of things are "possible" Matt, including Sixby's latest theory but the math doesn't appear to be that hard on this one, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
It's unfortunate that Mr Willeford has lost so many friends and neighbors, will have to deal with the stress from this incident and has to endure being hounded by the media. I hope that the sheriff's department can keep the media at bay so that he can at least attend funeral services in peace.
Note the intersection WRT the media in both of these videos. Here's Bill Whittle:
While this was going on my wife and I also sat with friends at a First Baptist church..I can't imagine...Don't want to imagine.
Evil isn't going away anytime soon. I wish everyone in our country would have a change of heart...that we'd Love instead of hate. But I also know that realistically it's not going to happen.
It bothers me, angers me that the liberal element of our society does all they can to strip this country of Godly principles, take prayer from our schools, remove the ten commandments, and then when evil rises up.....they try and strip our 2nd amendment right, and our ability to defend and protect.
What a mess .
While I agree with much of your post, I don't think the callousness of our society is confined to the "liberal element." As is witnessed here every day, there is more than enough of that in the "conservative element" as well.
I struggle with how to remedy it because I see our current President as one that is emboldening this callousness in our society, and at the same time I feel in many cases he has to take the tact that he is taking in order to expose what needs to be exposed if there is any chance of turning the ship around. We've seen where playing nice just doesn't work, and going along just to get along has actually made the problem worse.
Sadly, I think it is probably going to get worse before it gets better.
If true, this would seem to bolster the theory that this man was indeed "mentally ill."
It's not all doom and gloom, brother.
In the US, we've enjoyed a 2 decade long decline in homicides per 100,000 people. There's been a recent uptick in the last 2 years, but it still isn't even close to pre-2000 levels.
I think our "instant news" society has caused the perception things are worse. For example, I got a news alert on my phone about this shooting only moments after it happened. Of course, the internet blew up about it a few minutes later. It's in our face 24/7.
I don't think anyone has ever argued this killer wasn't "mentally ill." You, on the other hand, have maintained there's a distinction between a sane versus an insane mass murderer, depending on motive. I simply don't see that distinction.
On the "6 dead in NYC" thread you indicated that "only I knew what I was thinking" when I made a certain comment. Doesn't the same principle apply to a mass murderer? Do any of us really know what's going on in a person's head when he commits an act of evil? I don't think so.
See my explanation above of a "Sane Mass Murderer". By your definition...a large number of these on this list are insane (see link). This is just the last 30 days.
Let me try this one more time with a hypothetic example.
Let's say I was programmed from a young age to believe anyone who ate French fries was the embodiment of Satan, and should be slain for the sake of my religion. So, I shoot up a McDonald's believing my actions will be rewarded by my God. Am I an insane murderer, or a sane terrorist? And should my punishment reflect that distinction, if any?
what's even more sad is that folks actually think gun control is the answer.
Criminals dont obey the law, that's common sense.
Let's say from the time of your birth, you were programmed to believe in a certain system of laws. Heck, let's say you even swore to your God and your people to uphold that system of laws. Now, somewhere along the way, you felt a group of people were threatening that system of laws so you dropped a bomb on them, killing thousands upon thousands of them, many of them innocents, in an attempt to get them to back off. Would that make you insane?
Was Truman a Survivalist? How about Bin Laden?
Truman acted on behalf of those who put him in the position to make that decision. It was also a retaliatory strike that effectively ended the conflict.
Bin Laden also acted on behalf of those who put him there. The difference is, his strikes were to promote the conflict.
These events are absolute tragedies, but they get far more airplay and attention than they deserve and it creates an incredibly skewed view of the threats we face in this world -- be it from a radical Islamist terrorist or from a mentally unhinged white guy with an AR. The "if it bleeds it leads" philosophy of our news agencies and the 24 hour news cycle does not help things. Being so connected comes with some drawbacks.
I know why they both did what they did, but that wasn't my question.
Were they both survivalists? Were they both sane? Both insane? Both terrorists? After all, they both did what they did because they swore to their God and their people to uphold a certain system of laws.
Yes. Don't know, Don't know. Depends on which side you are on. In that order.
Since the beginning, men have done things like this with the "easiest" weapon they had available. Proof that the weapon is not to blame. Only human nature. With guns being so readily available, it is simply the easy choice for these mad men. If they theoretically could be confiscated, these people will then move along to the next "easiest" tool to commit their deeds. Putting a band aid on a gunshot wound would be the equivalent to gun control laws to stop this human condition. So, the realistic answer is there are no solutions that government can inflict to change these happenings.
We must persevere as our AMERICAN founders intended, if we intend to resemble the country they so brilliantly outlined. No alternatives. No further laws. Its time to make Americans to act like........ AMERICANS. God Bless men
Hell, in many mays we worship violence. Kids grow up thinking fictional characters like John Rambo actually exist, and they idolize them. They play video games that simulate the most violent behavior imaginable. Even our most popular sports encourage violence.
It will take a complete change in mentality, from old to young, to slow violent behavior. As I said earlier, we did exactly that for 2 decades. Homicide rates fell almost in half. It pains me to see the recent rise, but we are still far better off than 25 years ago.
I have NEVER believed it right to jam my belief down somebody's throat. Rarely does it work to force feed, always should be offered "free choice"
As I read down over the post, including my own, we all have "our" opinions people are interviewed and more opinions are formed based on "their" thoughts on the matter. We argue over what is right and wrong, pass laws based on what or how "we" think. Muslims think they are right, so they kill innocent "infidels" taught from young on up. Atheist think there is no GOD so they base their actions on how "they" think. What is the definition of an "insane" person? Does that really depend on who you ask?
What is right?....What is wrong? Does that also just depend on who you ask? And if it does, then is there really any Right or wrong?....Doesn't take long before you start to realize it does not work, will not ever work, and will only produce confusion.
Just like the simple mathematical truth that 2+2=4 There is only ONE way, ONE correct way regardless of what you or I say. We could all decide that 2+2= something else, but it will never mathematically work.
The same is true for mankind. It does NOT matter what you or I think or believe. My idea of right and wrong doesn't matter, nor does yours. These things are already established and cannot be changed, regardless of nationality or belief.
There is only ONE way, ONE truth. accept it or reject it. It will not change. It is "steadfast and unmovable"
The New testament gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm not here to force feed it. Read it, examine it. I'm convinced that no man can deny it's truth and its benefit to mankind.
If the world would suddenly all govern and conduct themselves in accordance to it, and not try to change it, or isolate just part of it, or do whatever suits...What a different world it would be.
"At the end of the road, we will meet God" You may deny it....but you will never change it.
Good points all.
My wife and I were having this discussion just the other day. We have become such a confrontational society, and I don't how it happened. We were heading out to our cabin and had the cruise set on exactly the speed limit. Apparently that wasn't fast enough for the young "lady" behind us (I'm guessing early 20's). The first opportunity she had, she passed us and flipped me the finger as she went by. Really?
Where is all this anger, lack of respect, and confrontation coming from?
A relationship with Christ is personal. And the opposite of religion. That’s just the way it is and, if you don’t have it, you won’t understand it.
As in all of humanity, there has always been a small few that act irrationally. Suggesting that you aren’t a radical mass murder as proof “religion”.isn’t required is my point. A relationship with Jesus Christ is.
God Bless men
In my opinion, this is HUGE WVM, and precisely why more gun laws will never stop these things from happening. What more proof do we need?
Let's face it. We relied on the laws of man to keep guns away from this nut case. The laws were already in place, and those laws failed on so many different levels.
LOL. The same thing has happened to me. I just laugh and wave back. They really hate that.
Why would that surprise you BB? Last I knew Priests (as well as all clergy, and law enforcement officers) are human beings, and subject to the exact same failings as all other human beings. They are not a deity, and should never be seen as one.
I suppose that you are going to tell me that on average, LEO's break less laws than the general population. If you think that, you are dreaming.
Reality is, even if the Sutherland Springs shooter had flunked a background check, he could have bought a stolen rifle. This background check failure wouldn't have stopped the crime. Background checks do little to stop crime, because there is always a stolen gun to be bought, or a legal gun to be stolen. The gangbangers in Big Bear's community aren't lining up at Cabelas to pick up a new SIG.
The report also disclosed that police who were alerted to Devin Kelley's escape were advised that he posed a "danger to himself and others" after being "caught sneaking firearms" onto the U.S. Air Force base in New Mexico where he was stationed. The person who reported the escape, according to the report, further warned that Kelley, then aged 21, had been "attempting to carry out death threats" against his military commanders and "suffered from mental disorders." He was apprehended without incident at an El Paso, Texas, bus station shortly after he had run off, according to a police report filed in that city. Kelley's troubled Air Force background has been a focus of investigators in the tiny Texas town of Sutherland Springs since he stormed into a church there on Sunday with a semi-automatic assault rifle and opened fire on worshipers. Authorities have said 26 people were killed in the assault, including the unborn child of a pregnant woman who was among the dead. Another 20 people were wounded, half of them still listed in critical condition as of Tuesday. Officials said Kelley, 26, killed himself during a failed getaway attempt after he was wounded by an armed civilian who tried to stop him. Two handguns belonging to the killer also were recovered. A major sporting goods dealer in San Antonio later confirmed that Kelley twice passed a required criminal background check when he bought guns there during the past year, despite having a criminal record that should have prevented those purchases. Kelley was found guilty by court-martial in 2012 of assaulting his first wife and a stepson while serving at Holloman Air Force Base, where he was assigned to a logistics readiness unit, the Pentagon reported on Monday. But the Air Force also acknowledged it inexplicably failed to enter his conviction into a government database that all licensed firearms dealers are required to use to screen prospective gun buyers for their criminal history. Federal law prohibits anyone from selling a gun to someone who has been convicted of a crime involving domestic violence against a spouse or child. On Capitol Hill, the Republican chairman of the U.S. House Armed Services Committee, Representative Mac Thornberry of Texas, called the failure to transmit Kelley's record into the National Criminal Information Center (NCIC) system an "appalling" lapse. The Air Force has opened an inquiry into the matter, and the U.S. Defense Department has requested a review by its inspector general to ensure other criminal cases have been reported correctly, Pentagon officials said. Two U.S. senators, Republican Jeff Flake of Arizona and Democratic Martin Heinrich of New Mexico, said they planned to co-sponsor legislation aimed at ensuring that anyone convicted of domestic violence, whether in civilian or military court, would be blocked from legally purchasing a gun. Firearms experts said the case involving Kelley, who spent a year in military detention before his bad-conduct discharge from the Air Force in 2014, exposed a previously unnoticed weak link in the system of background checks. BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS AS STUDENT Texas public school records also showed Kelley had numerous behavior problems as a student, including nine suspensions for such issues as drugs, insubordination, profanity, skipping classes and dishonesty between sixth grade and high school graduation. His private adult life appears to have likewise been marked by turbulence. After divorcing the woman he was convicted of assaulting, Kelley remarried in 2014, but authorities have said he became embroiled in some unspecified domestic dispute with her parents that involved him sending threatening text messages to his mother-in-law. Kelley's in-laws occasionally attended services at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs but were not there when he attacked worshipers during Sunday prayers, authorities said. "We have some indication of what the conflict was between the family," Freeman Martin, spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, told a Tuesday news conference. It was not clear what role, if any, the dispute played as a motivating factor in Sunday's violence. Kelley's cell phone was sent to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's crime lab at Quantico, Virginia, but specialists were not immediately able to gain electronic access to the device, said Christopher Combs, the FBI's special agent in charge in San Antonio.
I'd be interested in hearing about his parents. I can't help thinking they failed somewhere along the line.
Truth is, you, me, or anyone else knows what their spouse, neighbors, or even themselves are capable of if they allow evil to manifest into their heart. Just know that A heart without the holy spirit is HUMAN NATURE defined. God Bless men
God bless, Steve
Either way, it's "F-ing tragic. My prayers are with all."
That depends on what point you believe the union of a sperm and a egg becomes a "innocent child". I think that's a debate for another thread.
My point has remained, I don't think anyone has the crystal ball to determine what goes on in a killers head. Therefore, their punishment should be based on their actions, not some clairvoyant determination of their mental health. I'm tired of my tax dollars being spent to provide subsistence for killers who have been determined to be "insane" when they committed their crimes.
I can understand why you wouldn't want the discussion to go in that direction Matt, and that's fine. It is interesting however, when things are looked at from various different perspectives, they often times don't seem so clear.
"My point has remained, I don't think anyone has the crystal ball to determine what goes on in a killers head. Therefore, their punishment should be based on their actions, not some clairvoyant determination of their mental health. I'm tired of my tax dollars being spent to provide subsistence for killers who have been determined to be "insane" when they committed their crimes."
Exactly, and thank you.
This is precisely why I think it would be a HUGE mistake to conflate "terrorism" with "mental illness." It is also "precisely why there is, and should be, a specific legal definition for "terrorism." It actually eliminates the need for the "crystal ball" that you speak of.
Once we start considering "terrorists" mentally ill, we will be forced to do exactly what you don't want. I don't want to treat terrorists, I want to punish them.
That has been my argument all along.
Ironically (I know how you "love irony"), in the same way you don't want your tax dollars providing sustenance for killers who have been determined to be insane, there are many who don't want their tax dollars providing for the extermination of innocent lives that they believe began at conception.
Another sad example of this irony, is that one of the victims of this horrendous shooting was indeed an unborn child, or as some would describe a "mass of cells." Had this "mass of cells" been the only death in this shooting, I wonder what most would want this animal charged with? Murder?
You stated earlier the evidence suggests this Texas killer was mentally ill. Had he survived, and his counsel was able to convince a jury of that, it's likely he would have received something less than the death penalty. And the rest of us would have had to support him, probably for the rest of his life.
I think that would have been a injustice to the people he murdered, their family and friends, and to society in general. Insane, or not, I think anyone who commits an evil act like this should receive the death penalty.
That was my argument from day one...over a week ago. It was the reason why I got involved in this aspect of the discussion:
Not that it matters much to the victims, but in my opinion there actually is a difference between the actions of a terrorist and that of a psychopath/sociopath, and we should never confuse them.
A terrorist uses violence in the pursuit of political or "religious" aims.
By labeling every psychopath and sociopath a terrorist, you in effect "normalize" terrorism, and you make it harder to identify and eradicate the true perpetrators.
Yes, there is some overlap but it is a huge mistake to conflate the two. These people are NOT mentally ill. They are lucid, intelligent and as passionate about their religion (or twisted political version thereof) as any Christian, Jew or Buddhist is of theirs. To them, these are NOT acts of violence but acts of worship.
The left would like nothing more than to lump all these people together. They want nothing more than to say that this isn't a radical Muslim thing, but a mental illness thing, and that any one of your neighbors is just as likely to commit a terrorist act as a radical Muslim."
" Next thing you know we will be "treating" them with the intent to rehabilitate. Good luck with that. "
You are making my argument for me. Now that we agree, I see no reason to continue this.
Have a nice day.
If we took the whole mental health distinction out of the equation, there would be no danger of convoluting it with terrorism. Any mass murderer would then be prosecuted the same way.
Now, don't confuse that with the necessary precautions we need to address international terrorism versus homegrown mass murderers. That's obviously a different matter. I just think the penalty should be the same for both crimes, with no distinction made due to mental health, or lack thereof.
Problem solved. ;o)