Would you bait deer in KS?
Community
Every year, Pat's Live Kansas Bowhunt makes me wonder what the consensus is on baiting deer, or other big game.
I've bow hunted Kansas for almost 30 years with my Cuz who lives there. From the start, we decided that baiting wasn't challenging, satisfying, nor particularly ethical. So we've never done it, nor will we.
And, yes, I've heard the arguments claiming hunting food plots, or natural food sources, is no different. I simply don't buy those arguments. I think it's akin to trying to catch my horses while they feed in my pasture (almost impossible to do), versus catching them when they come to the barn twice a day for their oats. To me, the bucks Pat and others have shot on this KS property are nothing more than glorified livestock.
I know it's a personal decision, and it's a divisive subject. Should Kansas continue to allow baiting for deer? Personally, I'd like to see it go away.
Matt
I tried baiting in Michigan, all I accomplished was feeding the raccoons and young deer. I would rather catch them in an alfalfa field, the old apple orchard, or when they are traveling.
I tried baiting in Michigan, all I accomplished was feeding the raccoons and young deer. I would rather catch them in an alfalfa field, the old apple orchard, or when they are traveling.
Nope, on the ground spot and stalk ,fair chase only. I do support anyone doing what they feel is right for them within the rules. But I will poke a little fun at thier methods where appropriate.
Have hunted KS for over 40 years and have never baited, don't plan to. However it gets tougher when everyone else is. Would like to see it stopped. Also there IS a difference to bait piles and plots. Don't do plots either.
Whitey,
Your principles are a bit tougher than mine. While I prefer spot and stalk, I will sit in a tree stand or a ground blind when conditions call for it. I just refuse to stick a pile of corn out in front.
I think conditioning animals to come to a *specific* spot, within bow range of a shooter, doesn't require any hunting skills.
Almost every morning and evening I have between 20-40 wild turkeys come to my barn to feed on the scraps my horses leave behind. When they are near the barn, they're like domesticated chickens. I can walk right thru the middle of them without a single bird spooking. Away from the barn, they are as wily and spooky as any other wild turkeys. Killing one near my barn would be pathetically easy. I view Pat's Kansas bowhunts the same way.
Matt
It is what it is. I have hunted bears over bait, caught fish with bait, antelope over man-made water holes, etc.. Killing a nice whitetail over a corn pile wouldn't be as satisfying as killing one I rattled in from 500 yards away but not every walk needs to be to the top of Everest to be rewarding. If it's not harming the resource or fellow hunters opportunities, it doesn't bother me.
About 1/2 the animals I have killed over the years were lured to their death because they were thirsty, hungry, horny, looking for a fight, lonely, or curious. The other 1/2 were ambushed unexpectedly as they went about their day.
Can I come and kill a turkey by your barn ????
One persons method of hunting is another persons ethical dilemma. Freedom is letting other people do things you don't like. If populations are managed well, I could care less how you harvest them.....
Glunt,
"If it's not harming the resource or fellow hunters opportunities, it doesn't bother me."
I guess this where it becomes a sticky wicket. In Kansas, we hunt near properties where the hunters routinely bait. I know that adversely affects the number and quality of the deer we see. But then, we could also take the lazy approach, if we cared to.
However, there are circumstances when it's not just a personnel choice. For example, I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction. Deer are lured to the Kansas side by baiting. Colorado hunters don't have that choice, since it's illegal here. So, it could be argued baiting does in fact harm fellow hunters opportunities in those cases.
Matt
The good things about baiting is you can see all kinds of birds and squirrels. It also allows you to get a good shot at a deer. Anyone that thinks you can dump a pile of corn in the woods and have deer all over it don't know what they are talking about. I cut way back last year and only shot five deer. All were at trails and none were at my feeder. I got a lot of pictures at the feeder. I try to only shoot mature does and they are pretty picky about where they go in the day time. An old doe, with fawns is the most careful of all the deer. Button and spike bucks are the dumbest. Rutting bucks aren't too smart either.
I am not fond of a man telling another man his business.
You have stated you don’t like it matt, and that you don’t do it. That’s your choice and I commend you for exercising your free agency to do so.
Now please allow me my free agency to bait and stop advocating to take it away from me simply because you think it’s unethical.
Do I bait? Yes. Should Kansas allow it on private property? Yes.
We need less government regulation. Regulation by gov is never the answer. Is hunting over bait easier? Yes. Is it more productive? Not necessarily. It can be easier/more productive but at certain times when deer are rutting they almost avoid corn. I’ve hunted individual bucks for 40-50 days without a sighting while hunting over corn, it’s not like shaking a bucket for your horses. Try it and form your own opinions instead of imposing yours on others.
When I hunted in Texas, we'd plant oat patches for the deer. It would bring in the does, but not any of the good bucks. But during the rut, if the does were around, the bucks would come with their nose to the ground at times. And yes, we use corn at Shiloh Ranch.
Even with bait, the old and wary animals grow old because they are wary. That does not change.
No, I would not bait deer anywhere. To each their own but it's not for me.
I have hunted long enough not to care if I shoot an animal. It’s more about out smarting them and has been for a long time. It’s more fun to stand up and start talking with them when they have no idea you were there. The look on thier face is priceless as they walk off. Some people like the meat more than the hunt and that’s just as ok.
The management and effects on other hunters is something I have no issue with debating. It certainly can be an issue. I would rather not see others bashed with the ethical argument. A bull elk who drops his guard and walks in to an awaiting hunter's calls due to his instinctual drive to reproduce isn't really that much different than a whitetail following his urge to eat at some dumped out corn. They both were fooled by an artificial situation that triggered their response. One is more fun in my opinion, but not necessarily more "fair".
KPC,
To me, there's a difference between food plots, ag parcels, natural food sources, and a pile of bait within shooting distance of your stand. Again, I cite the difference between killing a turkey at my barn versus killing one anywhere else on my property.
Nearly every buck Pat has shot in KS was killed over a pile of corn. How many of those monster bucks would he have killed without baiting them? Dare I say, not many.
For me, the appeal of archery hunting is the challenge of out-smarting game and getting close enough for an ethical shot in their environment on their terms. Conditioning game to respond like Pavlov's dog to a dinner bell, then killing them when they do, goes against the grain of what archery hunting is about, IMO.
I respect other hunters rights to their opinions, too. My point for starting this thread was to poll those other opinions, not to impose mine.
Matt
I think when you start questioning the way other people are hunting, especially when you've probably never met them or hunted with them, hunters are the only losers. I respect anyones way of hunting as long as they obey the law.
Lets see, we got; . .
. .
Climbing stands
85% let off compounds,
Hecs suits
Ozonics
Blinds with shoot through mesh
Broadheads that expand like an AX
Activated charcoal suits
Deer Pee taken from a specific deer that has a more trackable serial number than a SSN.
Optical digitized camo patterns that fool a cervids eyes
. . . and someone is worried about legal baiting?
LOL !
I've hunted the Boundary Waters most of my adult life, so I know big bucks can be shot without corn...and if you don't know what they feed on or are able to pattern them then maybe a pile of corn is really the extent of your hunting prowess. Having said that I don't care if people bait or not because when it all boils down we each hunt for our own reasons...if a deer at any cost is the summation of your hunting goals then go buy a bag of corn, but for me personally I enjoy the chase, the game, the scouting, and tag soup is part of it. I would be bored stiff sitting a corn pile the entire time.
Is there a difference if the food plot is so small that once a deer steps into it the deer is in bow range ??? Is it OK to shoot a pronghorn at a water hole ??? How about an elk at a water hole ??? A moose at a mineral lick ??
Tonyo,
The obvious difference in all of those hunting aids/crutches that you listed is they don't condition animals to a specific behavior like baiting does. The turkeys at my barn couldn't care less if I'm in optically digitized camo or butt naked. They've been conditioned to act abnormally because they know it will result in an easy meal.
Matt
What about a water hole Matt ??
BB,
I understand your argument. The difference for me is whether it's normal behavior, or conditioned behavior. An elk coming to a wallow is normal behavior. An antelope drinking from a cattle tank or man-made water hole is also very normal behavior in most antelope country. A monster whitetail buck feeding on a pile of cut corn kernels in broad daylight isn't normal behavior, IMO.
Matt
"They've been conditioned to act abnormally because they know it will result in an easy meal."
Like Democrats picking up their checks......lol
This subject has beer beaten to death on the Wisconsin site. Posters have been dissed, dismissed, threaten, removed and banned for life.
If this was on the Wisconsin site it would be 3,2,1 thread locked!
Matt.... I don't know how you can argue that a wild animal coming to a cattle tank is a normal behavior... It is conditioned....... I have a food plot that you could call a kill plot. I put it there to kill deer... If a deer steps into it.... The deer is in bow range.... Is that OK ??? Also.... how many of you guys who are against baiting are OK with shooting hogs in an enclosure ???? We have a very real problem with invasive hogs getting out of shooting pens in Michigan.......
Jeff... have you ever bear hunted over bait ??
Ha !! Kevin.... I've owned my 20 acres in the U.P. Since 2009...... in those 9 years... a grand total of 2 deer have been killed on my property..... I guess I should stop conditioning those poor deer and giving myself an unfair advantage by baiting...... Ha !!!!!
Funny thing is I hunted Kansas twice at two different outfitters. Each time I saw the biggest bucks where there wasn't corn around. Hunted the rows of cedars between fields. As long as it is legal I'm fine with it. In NYS baiting is illegal but it is rampant on long island where I hunt. There is so much baiting and poaching at night of big bucks it is pathetic. Every year I find bait piles and mineral blocks on public land so you know on private land it is much worse.
Use to hunt the UP of Mi. and it was funny how much corn was piled on, was hunting between public and private and the guy stop me on a trail coming out and complain about the guy down the road that dumped a huge pile of corn and it was taking away deer from his bait pile. I started to hunt the early season when deer were less condition and still on natural movement before the gravity boxes start dropping the corn and now you got the x-gun added which makes a more negative hunting experience on the public and they call it bow hunting.
A compound bow isn't needed either..... If you're going to put down other guys that use a legal method of hunting.... The least you could do is use the most challenging method of bow hunting..... and limit yourself to spot and stalk with a longbow or recurve..... or better yet a selfbow......And if you want to keep going there..... Any man that says he's never been a "Master Baiter"...... Is a LIAR............. Just Sayin......
Jtv, have you ever noticed how anyone who disagrees with you, or how anyone who does things differently than you must be lazy and stupid?
You really need to get a life.
I love the argument that people are lazy that bait.
You’re welcome anytime To come out and bait with me. I’ll even pay your way.
What you call lazy, I call fun. I love packing bait in 2 miles and 1500 vertical foot gain.I love seeing the animals that benefit. Especially after a harsh winter and they can use a freebie.
I also love hearing all about your conservative beliefs, backed up by what you think should be illegal for everyone else. It’s alwYs you telling another man what to do, how to do it.
Your schtick has gotten about as old and joshuaF’s song.
Give it up, you have to be the most miserable SOB to even know or be around. Let alone be married to.
DConcrete, the last sentence of your post hits the nail square on the head!
"I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction"
I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.
I know you’re glad that you have your big brother, tells you how to crap, government to tell everyone else how to do things.
Keep that in your neck of the woods
You fit right in in the state you reside.
And like I said, you have a standing invitation to come bait the ungulates. In fact, I have a winter one coming up here real quick.
The "if it's legal, I don't have a problem with it" responses don't really answer my original questions, which were: Would you bait deer in KS, and do you think it should be legal there?
My answer is "no" to both questions.
Matt
And I don’t think it should be legal to kill A mule deer during a rut hunt, and then not be able to consume the meat because you can’t handle the taste.
Ban rut hunting!!
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction"
I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.
So if I plant 5 acres of corn and once a week a week i mow a strip, that’s acceptable in GG eyes? Or is it only if i don’t mow it?
1. No
2. I don't know enough to decide. Limiting freedom can't be taken lightly.
Never hunted Kansas, but I do have a standing invitation...Might bait, might not. I'd have to see what the conditions were and what the locals do. I would be inclined to not bait.
I do not want baiting made legal in Missouri.
Mostly because of the information posted by JTV with regard to CWD and other communicable diseases that baiting seems to amplify I am against baiting in general, but don't care if others do it where legal. On the other hand, baiters should be aware of the potential of disease transmission and know they could be contributing to the problem.
Transportation of deer from deer farms to high fenced deer shooting preserves is a far greater risk to spread CWD than baiting.... there is a 2 gallon bait limit in Michigan.... The days of huge massive piles of bait are long gone.... And deer are going to have nose to nose contact regardless if they gather around a bait site.... they are social animals...... I can guarantee you that in my area you will be lucky to see 2 or 3 deer coming into my bait site....
DConcrete,
Do you think hunting regulations are necessary at all? Or should we be able to hunt where, when, and how we want without government's involvement?
Matt
The potential disease factor is an argument used by guys like Jeff that despise baiting.... You don't hear most of those guys calling for the outlawing of high fence deer and hog preserves..... They are the biggest CWD threat.... and hogs are escaping these shooting pens and becoming an invasive species in Michigan.... You don't hear guys like that calling for the outlawing of deer scents...... Which are coming from potentially CWD infected pens and being dumped straight into the woods.......
Again, my questions were specific to baiting Kansas deer, not Michigan, not hogs, not high fences (which I despise as well, but that's for another thread), not hunting aids or crutches, not rank rutty meat, etc..etc..
I've got 3 decades of experience hunting in Kansas. I have hunting relatives on both ends of the state. Most of them agree that baiting should not be legal. Seeing the bait piles in Pat's pics motivated me to ask for other opinions.
Matt
Answer to the question... Yes... and...... Yes..... I'd gladly go there and sit one of those very same stands with corn on the ground......
This is America. We're not supposed to have other folks decide what we "need."
Yes Matt, I do believe in game laws. However, what l don’t agree with is the logic that because you don’t like it, others can’t and shouldn’t be allowed to do it. I don’t like long shots. So I? don’t take them. Do I want a law that says you can’t? Nope.
There are much larger fish to dry than this one.
Your state is a prime Example of what not knowing what you’re for Or against does. Bear baiting in Colorado.
Don’t like it, don’t do it.
Please don't try this reductio ad absurdum crap.
The comment was that people don't "need" to bait. The government has to manage a resource, which would require certain restrictions. But what people "need" in the eyes of some bureaucrat is the last thing I want them deciding.
"Yes Matt, I do believe in game laws."
Good, I'm glad we agree on that.
"However, what l don’t agree with is the logic that because you don’t like it, others can’t and shouldn’t be allowed to do it."
Again, I'm glad we agree on that because I don't care if you enjoy baiting in Utah. I haven't hunted there, nor am I close to any people who do. If the people of your state agree with you, feed your wildlife out of your hand, if you want to. And I hope you enjoy hunting and killing them after that.
I think I've earned my right to have an opinion on KS deer hunting.
Matt
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction"
I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.
Matt..... Baiting for deer is a highly emotional subject among deer hunters. It is very divisive too....... All hunters have a right to an opinion on baiting in their state..... but laws such as these shouldn't be made based on hunters opinion...... They should be based on science and the opinions of our state deer biologists..... That's what we pay them for..... Our State Deer Biologists decided it it safe to allow baiting with a limit of 2 gallons..... And in counties where CWD has occurred.... baiting has been outlawed.......As far as hand feeding deer and killing them.... that's a bit of a stretch..... Like I said.... I've been baiting and hunting my property since 2009 and I've killed 2 deer and one bear.... I don't think I've dented the population too much or negatively affected my neighbors ..........
Again, BB, what you've killed or haven't on your property has no bearing on my opinions of what should be legal in KS. My first impressions are you may have picked the wrong spot to buy hunting property, but I can't say for sure.
Matt
It's not a good deer hunting area for sure but there are deer and there are bears......
BB,
On my place, I could easily condition my deer to feed out of my hands, just like the turkeys. It would be a difficult case to charge me with a crime, too. The turkeys learned horses are slobs and leave a lot of food on the ground. The deer would learn to do the same thing, if I chose to throw a bit more feed out.
The result would be I could lure the largest buck in my neighborhood to my barn every year. Killing him would the equivalent to picking a tomato from my garden, but I have no interest in doing that. As an outfitter in a past period of my life, I've seen it first hand, both illegally in Colorado, and legally in Kansas.
Matt
Would I bait in Kansas? The honest answer is I don't know. never hunted deer there so I cant answer that with any degree of credibility. That said I know where I stand on others baiting. As long as it is legal I will support those who do it and wish to do it. Same as high fences in texas. As a northern Minnesota boy it is foreign to me to hunt behind a fence, but if its legal I will support your right to do so and who am I who to judge others by what my beliefs are?
michael
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction"
I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.
In South Tx where I hunt the damn hogs will eat up a big amount of feed you put out. I've had better luck hunting fence lines and trails. If it's legal to bait in Kansas have at it.
There are places like yours in Michigan too Matt.... and if they don't want to bait fine.... but I feel it's unfair of them to try to say it should be illegal for me to use a few gallons of corn......
I don't bait but I do plant food plots to draw deer to my property. I see no reason to worry about someone else baiting.
Well actually I would not bait in KS. Too far for me to drive to fill the feeders.
It's not my thing. While I'm hunting, I don't want to see a pile of corn just like I don't want to see planted crops just like I don't want to hear a car driving by. They all take away from my experience.
That said, I try not to judge others because I usually can't do it without being a hypocrite. In all honesty, I wish there was no baiting of ungulates in this country at all. But I'll be damned if I'd ever vote to take away someone's right to do that if that's what they want to do - it's not my role in this world to tell another man that he can't do that.
And although not part of the original thread, yet touched on, I think that baiting bears and baiting ungulates are as different as apples and oranges and don't even belong in the same conversation.
I wouldn't bait deer ANYWHERE. I prefer to hunt them.
A little late to the party, but I did want to weigh in on a point Matt made regarding "normal behavior" vs. "conditioned behavior." To me, pretty much all deer behavior is conditioned, be it coming to bait or coming to a natural food source. The distinction I think is where conditioned behavior is influenced by humans. That said, food plots, hinge cutting, etc are all human activities that seek to alter the land in a way that conditions deer behavior. Should those activities be illegal too?
I have hunted over bait at times and I think there's a fallacy that a bait station or a pile of corn is like ringing a bell for Pavlov's dogs. The handful of times I've hunted over bait I've never killed a deer. I think that even with an easy, readily available food source deer mostly treat it like they would any other food source and there's no guarantee that you're going to get one to show up.
Personally, I have no problem with baiting if it's legal. I also think these are the types of conversations that give ammunition to the antis and they're able to latch onto these issues to slowly dial back our hunting rights.
When you can make hinge cuts, food plots, etc. 100% portable to suit your whim then maybe that'll be a valid comparison.
On one of the places I hunt there are several white oak "magnet" trees that in certain years draw deer like a....magnet.....for an extremely limited amount of time. They may be great one year and empty the next. It takes a bit of field time and woodscraft to detect and find them ahead of time and to see if it'll be a good year for them. To compare that to filling a portable bait feeder wherever and whenever you want it is a non-comparison.
My largest issue with baiting isn't the disease issue, although that is a consideration.
I think baiting deer degrades the concept of fair chase. It basically turns deer into predictable livestock, especially in areas with good populations. The progression from baiting seems to be timed feeders. I'm sure most of us have seen deer run to feeders as soon as they hear the motor running, no different than how my horses come running to rattling a feed bucket.
Then, of course, comes the high fences, genetically altered herds, and ridiculously expensive "trophy fees" for the opportunity to kill a deer like selecting a new car at the dealership. Texas has served as the modern prototype for this digression.
I feel Kansas is headed in that direction, and I think that's a shame for the average Joe hunter. Their DNR appears to be all in on the commercialization of the sport. It now costs a non-resident almost $600 just for a deer tag and a hunting license. Most of the best private hunting grounds have been leased up by outfitters, and public ground is limited and mostly worthless for hunting.
Anyway, I don't mean to offend the baiters out there. It that's what you need to do to see deer, and it's legal in your area, bait away. I will continue to support regualtions that eliminates the practice in Kansas.
Matt
" I will continue to support regualtions that eliminates the practice in Kansas. "
. .
. .
"A house divided . . . . "
- Abraham Lincoln
Someday, maybe there will be fellows that will support regulations that eliminate your favorite way of hunting.
Funny, when I used corn, or oat patches in South Texas, you didn't see big bucks in the fields. You would see does. Even here in Colorado, where a farmer has winter wheat, it's only the cows if any elk come in....the bulls just aren't there.
The idea that a food plot or a feeder puts animals in a trance is just not what I saw.
JTV...... Jeff..... Why can't you carry on any discussion without the need to talk down to people and try to belittle them ??
"Even here in Colorado, where a farmer has winter wheat, it's only the cows if any elk come in....the bulls just aren't there."
Kevin,
I guess everyone has their own anecdotal evidence. Above is a pic I took 3 days ago of the only alfalfa field within 5 square miles of my house. Of course, it's all private, and it's leased to an outfitter. They kill all the mature bulls every year, but if you zoom in on the pic, you can see there are still a good number of bulls in the herd.
Trance indeed.
Matt
Good question. Why, Matt, do you find it necessary to prohibit a means of hunting you don't like? If others wish to use feeders, or hunt over an alfalfa field, I don't see that it is harming you, or any of your business. Even if you think it is a good idea, not every good idea should become law.
It's actually preferable, if you want to live in a free society, to not tell others what to do.
The big answer to the great baiting debate has been the food plot...... Let's look at the food plot..... Guys with John Deer Tractors and thousands and thousands of dollars to spend on hunting have become farmers. Not to make money from farming... but to attract and hold deer..... and they plant kill plots so they can hunt over them. I can't afford all that farming for deer stuff... but I too put in a kill plot on my property.... It's less than a quarter of an acre and is a glorified garden to attract deer.... If a deer steps into it.... it is in bow range.... Anything you say about bait in regards to congregating deer,,, You can say about my plot.... And my plot is in my woods for one reason only.... and that is to help me kill deer....
OK.... So you say there are biological reasons not to bait.... But the deer biologists in Michigan,,, Kansas and Texas have deemed it safe to use bait for deer..... You are calling other people here names and know-it-alls........ while you are saying that our deer biologists are getting it wrong.....
IMO there is a time and place for baiting. If it isn't for you then so be it, but I'll do it when the situation IMO dictates.
I have hunted areas where if you didn't bait you would never see a deer because everyone one else is baiting. That said I have found that baiting is never a sure thing. My experience has been that the majority of the time the deer would stage about 75 yards back in the woods and wait until I left before they'd come in. The wind direction didn't matter. If it was blowing N they'd stage North or South vise versa. I don't ever recall a mature buck or doe coming into the bait while I was on stand. I have also used timed feeders and just dumped corn on the ground. The only time I have ever seen animals running to a feeder, after it went off, was on a game ranch in Florida.
I have also seen corn fields where you could set your watch to what time the deer would come out to eat. I planted cow peas behind my house this year. The deer tore them up, but only at night.
"There is no doubt that if food plots were being used in an area where CWD was present in wild populations, the risk of spreading the disease at that site would increase"............ Matt Dunfee........ Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance Coordinator..... Wildlife Management Institute,, Wash. D.C.
Food plots, baiting, tree stands, etc. are all very good tools used in aiding wildlife management. They should not be banned but used in certain situations to aid in population control of various species. You can get into all the corner cases you want about the definitions but you are creating an unnatural advantage with the purpose of making it easier. That’s fine but call it what it is and it’s not fair chase hunting. If That hurts some people’s feelings it’s on them. I don’t know why it would. If I had a hog problem and feeding them to bring them in to remove the problem was the best solution I would do it in an instant. I would not call it hunting I would call it management. Hunting is an art.
So..... What kind of hunting is fair chase hunting Whitey ???
"To compare that to filling a portable bait feeder wherever and whenever you want it is a non-comparison."
Disagree. Takes time to condition deer to feeders and they still visit them as inconsistently as they do an oak that's dropping acorns. Cause deer are there one day doesn't guarantee they'll be there the next.
I have baited deer in KY and have no problem with those that want to bait. I have learned over time though that baiting deer is probably a net negative. In the past it was an extremely effective way to fill a few doe tags. Now....EVERYONE baits. So much so that deer habits are changed and they just travel and hit different bait piles. 10 years ago, a doe coming to a pile of corn would be cautious and then eventually tolerate baiting, now whenever a deer approaches bait in my area in KY they are always on Defcon 4 alert. They are so much easier to kill without bait than with.
I have shot deer off bait, bears off bait, hogs off bait and African game off bait. I still would prefer not to use it for deer and it wouldn't bother me if it wasn't legal in my state. I also am not beating a drum to make it illegal because I am not the type of person that likes to tell others how they should hunt. What makes me tick doesn't necessarily make you and I am ok with that, you should be too.
Geez... it's a deer. You aren't curing cancer, painting the Mona Lisa or searching for a lifetime mate (which I'd guess most used every form of bait available...)
It's a deer. Meat on the hoof. Go hunt it. Kill it. Repeat as necessary or as allowed. Or not, whatever is preferred.
You can add whatever personal restrictions you like. I know some that add so many they basically are out for a nature walk with a walking stick that happens to have a string on it... I think they have an aversion to dead animals myself.... But any way you massage it, in the end it's still just a deer.
I grew up hunting in Kansas, still hunt there about every year. For myself and my family we would never bait a deer. I agree with a lot of others on here I don't think that it is very ethical. To all who say that you should be allowed to do what you want as long as it's legal, I will say, the older I get, the more I believe hunting will ultimately be determined by ballot initiatives and nonhunters are generally against baiting. I think we continue the practice at our own risk.
The reason they allow baiting on the Eastern Shore of Maryland and Delaware is there are just too many deer. We can hunt from Sept 1 to January 31. The farmers get permits to kill deer well after the season. They destroy corn and soybean fields.
Lucas..... So we should only do what is agreeable with non hunters ?? I started trapping a few years ago...... and my experience is that I don't even talk about trapping with non hunters...... it's not even worth arguing with them........ Should we give up trapping because non hunters are against it ??
What do you think non hunters think about killing an animal that you don't eat...... say a grizzly bear ?? Maybe we should do whatever looks best to non hunters........??
Fair chase has been defined for a long time and it’s not like beauty because it is a action. Actions can be quantified and measured. Boone and Crockett Club defines fair chase in this way: Fair Chase: is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.
However humans have an inmate ability to rationalize anything and most will given the opportunity.
Whitey...... Can you enter a buck legally killed over bait into the Boone and Crockett record books ?????????
B&C yes, P&Y I dont think so
Where I am now.. aint life grand ..... just had a mature eagle fly in on me .... enjoy your debate .....
P&Y ....... Yes..... They recognize and accept deer legally harvested over bait.....
Big bear. Rationalizers always look for a loophole. If you read BCs long essay on Fair Chase you will see a line easily missed. “it has never been the intention of the Club to limit the application of fair chase only to eligibility in its records book”
What ???? Loophole ?? So you are going to sit here and tell me that the Boone & Crockett Club are going to allow guys to enter bucks legally taken over bait into their record book... when they consider the practice as NOT fair chase ???? That is ridiculous..... P & Y..... same thing..... Longhunters society..... Same..... SCI ......... same ........ Commemorative Bucks of Michigan........ same.....
If that's the case Whitey..... explain to me why P&Y does NOT allow entry of deer taken with lighted sights on your bow ?? And why do they have a let off minimum on compound bows ??
Two wolves and one sheep. Apearance matters...
B.B. read it for yourself. They say high fence hunts are not fair chase but then turn around and claim it’s dependent of the size of the enclosure. BC is selling a product they will rationalize anything that allows them to have as many members as possible while still having the appearance of living up to their creed. It much like the discussion about cops. They swear to up hold the law but some have no intention of actually living up to that standard.
So once again Whitey.... what do YOU consider fair chase deer hunting ??? What is acceptable to YOU ??? Stalking on the ground with a selfbow ??
B.B. to make sure we are clear My view is the same as Aldo Leopold he said “A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability, and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise. “. It’s on page 262 in a Sand County Almanac. I am not arguing ethics I am arguing the distinction of what is an art vs game management. Bait, tree stands, dogs all play a vital role in game management.
Oh my God you are like talking to a politician...... So pretty much any deer hunting I've ever done in my life is not fair chase hunting.... rather game management........ whatever you want to call it man....... By the way..... I saw a picture of Fred Bear deer hunting in Michigan over a carrot pile...... I'll try to find that picture
B.B. the only way I have hunted in the past 30 years was on the ground with a selfbow. I could care less how others do it.
As far as I know, some states still haven't adopted regulations banning the use of drones for hunting. Kansas may be one of them, but I haven't researched it thoroughly.
So, for those who feel prohibiting baiting is stepping on your freedoms, do you feel the same way about prohibiting drones from being used for hunting?
Matt
" I could care less how others do it." Certainly not how it came across. All you had to do do was say that in your first post and you'd have nailed it.
My understanding is Safari Club is the only org that takes high fence....... a good deal to that is the vast majority of African game is high fence. High fence actually SAVED hunting in much of Africa. And both B&C and P&Y take bears that were baited. What logical reason would they have to exclude LEGALLY baited deer? Deer are more "special"? Maybe not "get a grip".... but maybe a tighter grasp.....
It's flippin' deer hunting..... not a religion or religious experience...... good grief....
You're an idiot Gray.
It's pretty much what you called Pat and anyone who has taken a deer by bait.
Calling an ethical way to hunt unethical and calling guys out is fighting words. It's not just your opinion. It's like calling someone's wife ugly. You aren't just making a statement but insulting someone.
So on this post - you are an idiot.
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction"
I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.
HA/KS,
Never going to get that answer.
As far as the trolling many took the bait and we have hit over 100 posts.
I think its time to talk about a crossbow from a drone over a bait pile in Wichita and if you are not talking about in the city limits don't post......lol
Sorry if you're insulted, Sage Buffalo, often times the truth hurts.
I asked 2 simple questions about hunting in KS, and explained my answers to those questions. If that's the same as calling your wife ugly, then again, the truth must hurt.
Now, do you have a logical argument to the baiting questions, other than "if it's legal, I don't care what you do?"
Matt
TD I said that in the 4th post on this thread. In fact I have said it several times. WRT bear baiting. What is the reason people bait bear? It makes it easier to hunt them. Bear baiting and hounds were banned here years ago people still hunt them but it has made it much harder.
I agree with GG sometimes the truth hurts.
Matt..... You didn't simply ask 2 questions...... You called out the owner of the website you are posting on.... saying that you decided that the hunt he was on in Kansas is unethical......
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction" I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.
The elk/alfalfa pic above has 4-5 raghorns in the pic. So killing monster bulls must be easy on alfalfa? No doubt if you’re into any deer, corn is easy. Targeting bigger deer it is probably a tad bit easier but not a cake walk. I’m guiding 4 deer hunters now in the Texas panhandle. They are hunting a ranch with a handful of 150” deer, many 140”s and a plethora of 130”s. With a combined 16 days hunting, plus I have 4 glassing from a spot i can see 3 corn piles, we’ve seen 1 deer over 130”, and several 120’s. That’s normal corn hunting. Maybe you can condition a few residential deer but on a larger scale, bull butter.
As I read it GG said he and his cuz didn’t think it was ethical so they stopped. He never said others should stop. Just because it hurts people feelings doesn’t mean we cannot discuss it.
"What is more "logical" than allowing each hunter to hunt the way he wishes, within the parameters of the law?"
Yep, that's as logical as it gets, Kevin. It also ignores my 2nd question, which was "Should Kansas continue to allow baiting for deer?", in case you've forgotten.
Your answer to that was clearly that you don't have an opinion, and that it should be up to the KDWPT to decide. I respect that, but I also think the KDWPT represents the residents of Kansas, who do have a voice in wildlife policy.
Matt
I hunted whitetail deer for about 15 years in Texas. And this time of year, I can go out and take a picture of a herd of elk on winter range in the middle of a bunch of sage. That proves nothing except that a hell of a lot of deer went down to a private ranch. But you knew that. Frankly, you're arguing just to argue, I guess because the trolls are all doing work release or something.
The KDWP has eliminated baiting on all state and state leased lands(WIHA), for sound reasons. Read the regs and you'll be able to speak intelligently to this.
It's not hunting, has nothing to do with it, and everyone here knows that. Hopefully they'll take action to eliminate baiting statewide soon.
Another guy posting on the Bowsite who's saying that what the owner of the Bowsite is doing is not hunting..... "Everyone here knows that"...... Speak for yourself man.....
I am speaking for myself, it's my opinion that you and all others know this.
Some may, however, refuse to accept it.
I don't know it and I don't agree with it...... Like I said.... I've been baiting for deer on my property since 2009 and have killed a total of 2 deer in that time. That's plenty challenging enough for me and it is fair chase. Stop trying to tell me how I think.
Ok, I'll stop, hope the season gets better for ya bud!
everyone's an activist, yay... yawn
Matt, I didn’t read all the posts but to answer your questions. This year is my first year hunting Kansas. I shot my buck tonight and no I haven’t been using corn (bait). Honestly I don’t know if I would have used bait or not. For me it’s the thrill of figuring out there travel patterns. I also like to use calls when hunting.
I don’t see a problem with the baiting issue. So no i don’t think it should be illegal.
The vast majority of where I hunt is in corn country. Including my hunt in Kansas this year. Is a corn pile really that big of an influence on deer?
If there's nothing else nearby? You bet it is. My place is surrounded by woods but corn/bean fields are less than a 1/4 mile away. When it was still legal here I'd put a corn pile in my front yard so I could watch deer from my kitchen window. Once they knew it was there they came to it like cats to a saucer of milk.
First the Closet Democrat tries to tell Pat how to run the site, now the Pontificater is now trying to tell Pat what is ethical hunting, what a small minded weasel.
Yes, baiting is so unethical that you can't find anything to hunt in Kansas but does and forkhorns. What a load of crap.
Every year I shoot a deer in my garden real late in the season. I mean they eat my kale, and they also eat my wife's day lilies. She says shoot them all. Took this picture yesterday of a young deer.
Shoot. I guess, according to sitO, that stand hunting near a pin oak that is dropping acorns is not hunting, and everyone knew it but me !
. .
. .
I learn something every day on Bowsite.
"It is my understanding that part of the Kansas' constitutional "right to hunt" is that "regulations will always be based on sound science.""
So, their "sound science" showed that baiting on public ground should be banned. I wonder why that same science doesn't apply to private ground? Could it be because that would reduce the revenues generated by outfitters who rely on baiting?
Also, since this is a science discussion for you, how would prohibiting bait hunting affect the deer herd in Kansas? It's not like the state has a deer population problem. If anything deer numbers are way down from years past, largely due to CWD and increased hunting pressure.
Matt
A couple times I went to Blackwater refuge in Maryland to bow-hunt hunt Sika deer. No baiting allowed and it is a huge area. I killed a stag the first time I went and I was only 100 yards from the parking lot. I field dressed the stag and it was full of corn. I went to the same place the following year and killed a female Sika from the exact same tree. Field dressed her and like the year before she was full of corn. To me they are much easier to hunt than white tail deer, but possibly I just got lucky. I saw another hunter and he told me you had to follow the trail and go way back to find the cute little deer. He didn't see any when he came out and I could see the parking lot from where I killed mine. Had to wear wader since when you are off the trail the water is up to your waist and higher in places.
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction" I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.
tony: Your point would be valid if you could continually restock that oak tree with an unlimited amount of acorns and move the tree to where you wanted it at your whim.
Here's what the KDWP "believes":
"There is currently no known treatment or eradication method for CWD, so preventing the introduction of the disease into new areas is of utmost importance to the health of local deer herds. Baiting and feeding deer tend to concentrate deer at small point on the landscape, often with the trails leading to the feeding sites resembling the wheel spokes of a bicycle. Anytime animals are concentrated at this type of "hub," the likelihood of disease transmission increases in a deer herd. More alarming, the transferring of CWD prions to healthy deer is not the only concern. Diseases such as bovine tuberculosis, foot rot, and fungal infections; and a host of detrimental parasites, including exotic lice, flukes, mange mites, lungworms, and barberpole worms are transmitted more efficiently when deer are concentrated in a small area, especially around feeding stations."
So, why take the chance? Because it's easy? Indeed it is easy, and it's only reward is that it's easy.
I have had seven dead deer on and near my property. I called the biologist to come look at a nice buck, dead in a pond. There is a midge, in real hot dry weather, that bites deer on the nose when they come to water. This causes and infection that causes hemorrhaging really bad and the deer normally dies in 1 to five days. The biologist told me there is no cure and the first frost will kill the midges. It happens every few years and only when we have hot dry weather. Quite often the deer will be found dead in the water or just a few yards away. I have killed infected deer with a 22 pistol. When you see a perfectly healthy looking deer, that can't get up, and bleeding from the nose, it is heart breaking.
sitO....... so why take the chance with food plots ??? Did you read the quote from Matt Dunfee that I posted ?? He said food plots increase the risk of spreading CWD.......
KPC, did ya even look at the link?
Your words "Let the game departments base their regulations on sound science..." Which is exactly what they've done on ground they control.
They control regulations on private ground too..... You didn't answer my question..... Why take the chance with food plots ???
To answer the question in the OP: Are we hunting deer or sacred cows? I have no problem with the practice, though, my lone time hunting deer over a feeder was nerve racking as heck. It took me almost 1/2 hour to get drawn on a doe deer who ultimately, actually, "jumped" (not ducked) my arrow.
I think it's akin to trying to catch my horses while they feed in my pasture (almost impossible to do), versus catching them when they come to the barn twice a day for their oats. - Well, this analogy does not take into account the effective range of archery equipment. Many a food plot is designed to bring animals in effective range the minute they step foot in the plot. So, for the comparison to work, you'd have to have a reach of 120' give or take.
If CWD shows up in a county and the DNR closes down baiting in that county I think that's sufficient..... But they should also outlaw the use of deer scents and high fence hunting operations in those effected areas.....As well as kill plots..... Why take the chance..... Right sitO ???
Matt, Have not been on the CF in a long time. Came to look at this thread as BGH was talking about baiting and other hunting related stuff with me and mentioned this thread.
My answer for both is "no". But, I do not have to bait given the area I hunt and the opportunities I am fortunate to have. Like others said, I do not want government controlling us any more than necessary, regulations here are not necessary IMO.
If I did not have access to good property including a well managed farm (please see picture posted today of great buck, on my habitat thread) and only had the three acres we live on to hunt, I would bait. A lot of folks are not as fortunate as you, or even me. So I am OK with it where legal. Thanks.
This thread is the same thing every baiting thread becomes. It always amazes me that the guys who don't agree with it, have an unnatural view of what it is like. Bad Karma's and KPC's posts seem to mimic my experience with it. I'll leave it at that as TD has said it best. The idea is to actually kill something. And, I assume everyone here is smart enough to know how to do that when they desire.
Matt for Heavens sake, please answer Henry. He has asked you the same question 5 times now and you refuse to answer it. It is a simple question and one that you prompted. So, answer it. God Bless men
WV, he probably can't because he was called out on what is likely a false statement.
IMO.....
WRT to baiting and bait plots.......if it's legal it's ok for all in my book. If it's illegal, then it's illegal for all (private and public) in my book. That insures one consistent rule and level playing field for everyone. I view baiting and non-ag bait plots as one in the same.....both are designed for one thing....attract deer to a certain area. One places the bait there, the other grows the bait there. Big difference is a person normally can't do year around bait plots on public land like they can on private land. The advantage then goes to the private land person when going after the same resource (deer).
HMMM, a total loss of words from someone that has never been at a loss of negative words. Matt, we are waiting.......
When Henry actually asks me question, I will answer it. He hasn't yet.
For the record, there are 8 Colorado counties that share the border with Kansas. Many of them hold good deer herds. If you don't know this, then you've never spent any time in those areas.
And, no, I'm not going to list specific properties on a internet forum.
Matt
I have been a student of prion diseases for well over 10 years and have contacts that work in research labs. The video that KPC posted above contains numerous errors and assumptions (ass-u-me).
First, the narrator and promoter of "the facts" is a cervid farmer...so there is an initial vested interest in the video's POV.
I admit I that I did not investigate the bonofides of his four experts nor note the date of this production. However, it has been shown that CWD can be transmitted to non-human primates and the abnormal prions do become incorporated into plants.
The studied deer in the Colorado research were kept in an area that had previously been used for sheep scrapie studies...not near. Research has shown that prions can jump specie in relation to concentration of the challenge. That research facility was heavily contaminated with scrapie prions.
The history of the spread and occurrence of CWD has long been linked to cervid farming. Jumps of occurrence to Alberta and east of the Mississippi River where CWD had never occurred was probably due to importation of breeding stock from farms near the original outbreaks of the disease (condition according to the narrator). Cervid farmers (one does not farm for just amusement) have three major sources of income for their "product": domestic meat production, shooting big racked deer (purpose of breeding) or the production of scent lures.
One thing that is never heard is the banning of urine based scent lures. Where does one see any movement of banning them when talking about banning and regulation of baiting. Knowing the source, why are hunters allowed to seed areas with a potentially contaminating product that may be a major factor in the spread of the disease? It is possible that many of the CWD outbreaks that have occurred far from the site of initial discovery of CWD may be due to pouring prion contaminated piss in hopes of luring that NRB?
CWD cannot be detected in a live animal. The tonsular test that is available only shows if a deer does not have a detectable level of prions. Testing done at Michigan State and other universities which are involved in screening is done by an ELIZA assay...and all positives and suspected positives are sent to the Ames lab for confirmation by examining the brain tissue.
I'd like to see cervid farming more highly regulated...with mandatory double fencing (with a buffer zone of 20 yards between fences) to prevent any contact between the captive and wild deer. And perhaps regulating the number of deer contained to within the enclosures to similar levels as outside. Heck, knowing that land once contaminated remains contaminated, the fences should be maintained in perpetuity. That and complete banning of the use of any urine based scent lures.
Any method of hunting that encourages deer to come in contact in greater numbers can be a precursor to disease. In MI, bovine TB has been shown to have multiple vectors other than deer/cow contact involved in the spread of this disease. Uneaten (saliva covered) cattle feed is consumed by rats/birds and enters the food chain where BTB can be spread to adjoining negative farms.
Somehow, it seems that "hunting" is far too often linked to a dependence of actually killing a deer. This sort of view puts us on the path of commercialization and politization.
sound science - dotted line, straight hook, no net....nuthin but stink bait (GG & Bou, that is)
speaking of which, i cannot wait until KS is relegated (regulated?) to catch and release only...THAT will be such a challenge!
Matt, once again, reality is in direct contradiction to what you claim. Henry asked you a very deliberate, direct question. He didn't ask for specific properties. He asked for counties in which Kansas hunters are baiting deer across the Colorado border to harvest, while the Colorado hunters have no chance to bait these deer.
I do have to admit, that my only experience with Kansas and eastern, south eastern Colorado is driving through it. So, I have zero hunting experience there. But, stating the counties in which these instances you talked about occurring on private ground, is not some evil doing. Nor is it exposing something secret about your hunting area. All its done at this point is suggest you hold a notion of no real substance about how ethical baiting is. And, was simply winging it on a public forum.
"I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in."
That is a statement, not a question.
And, as I stated, there are several Colorado counties on the Kansas border that hold sizable deer herds. If Henry is "curious" about where they are, I suggest he spend some time in those areas. Heck, one of the biggest mulie bucks I've ever seen was right off of I-70 near the Kansas border.
Matt
"...the narrator and promoter of "the facts" is a cervid farmer...so there is an initial vested interest in the video's POV."
"One thing that is never heard is the banning of urine based scent lures. "
.. ..
.. ..
Virginia banned the use of any Deer products, including urine, two years ago, due to possible spread of CWD from Deer products..
.. ..
.. ..
I cannot legally cut the tarsal gland off a buck killed under my immovable Pin Oak where I killed the Buck, and hang it up in the same Pin Oak the next day. . . . . .
. . . . . even though the herd in the area will visit the site where the Buck urinated depositing possible CWD prions that live for decades in the soil . . . . . .
None of the CWD science or opinions make sense to me at all.
Guess where the herd is going to be when the first white oak starts dropping acorns. No need for a corn pile to attract CWD infected critters - Mother Nature is the best attractant of CWD critters.
It is all about the research dollars - nothing about saving cervids from CWD - or we would be chopping down every oak tree in the Nation.
GG, what county or counties are you referring to?
I did not realize that you were waiting for a statement followed by a ? If as a teacher I waited for every expression of curiosity to be stated as a formal question, my students would miss many opportunities to learn.
Henry,
There are 8. I've seen quality deer in over half of them. Beyond that, do your own research.
Next question?
Matt
Classic GG response. Bravo Matt
With an average home range of 640 acres and most mature bucks having a core area of less then 100 acres. I don’t see any Co deer crossing over for a bait pile.
The only deer I see that would go to a Kansas bait pile are the deer that have a home range that covers both sides of the border.
Michael, western KS/eastern CO deer cover a lot of territory.
Added: Western KS is mulie country, but there are whitetails where there is cover. Cover in that area is pretty much near grain crop fields, so baiting is often pretty futile when there are hundreds of acres of grain fields.
Hank, I don’t deny that I hunt plenty in western Ne and the Dakotas. Deer can cover some ground. I said average so yes some are larger.
My point was just because a bait pile pops up in Kansas I don’t see a Co deer packing up home and moving to Kansas. If a co deer is hitting a bait pile in Kansas it’s home range is already in Kansas as well.
Just like my point about a core area of a mature buck. A buck bedding in CO 2 miles away will probably reach the bait after shooting hours.
There is currently no known treatment or eradication method for CWD, so preventing the introduction of the the disease into new areas is of utmost importance to the health of local deer herds. Baiting and feeding deer tend to concentrate deer at small point on the landscape, often with the trails leading to the feeding sites resembling the wheel spokes of a bicycle. Anytime animals are concentrated at this type of "hub," the likelihood of disease transmission increases in a deer herd. More alarming, the transferring of CWD prions to healthy deer is not the only concern. Diseases such as bovine tuberculosis, foot rot, and fungal infections; and a host of detrimental parasites, including exotic lice, flukes, mange mites, lungworms, and barberpole worms are transmitted more efficiently when deer are concentrated in a small area, especially around feeding stations. Think of future generations of hunters and do your best to lower wildlife disease transmission risk.
I can't figure out why this would be posted on the KDWPT website, yet baiting is legal statewide. What sense does that make?
