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Would you bait deer in KS?
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Contributors to this thread:
Gray Ghost 13-Nov-17
PECO 13-Nov-17
PECO 13-Nov-17
Whitey 13-Nov-17
keepemsharp 13-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 13-Nov-17
K Cummings 13-Nov-17
Glunt@work 13-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-17
gflight 13-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 13-Nov-17
Shuteye 13-Nov-17
K Cummings 13-Nov-17
DConcrete 13-Nov-17
LINK 13-Nov-17
bad karma 13-Nov-17
Brotsky 13-Nov-17
Bentstick81 13-Nov-17
Whitey 13-Nov-17
K Cummings 13-Nov-17
K Cummings 13-Nov-17
Glunt@work 13-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 13-Nov-17
bigswivle 13-Nov-17
tonyo6302 13-Nov-17
South Farm 13-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 13-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 13-Nov-17
Trax 13-Nov-17
gflight 13-Nov-17
Huntcell 13-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-17
JTV 13-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-17
K Cummings 13-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-17
Mint 13-Nov-17
jjs 13-Nov-17
JTV 13-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-17
DConcrete 13-Nov-17
Jimbo 13-Nov-17
K Cummings 13-Nov-17
HA/KS 13-Nov-17
JTV 13-Nov-17
DConcrete 13-Nov-17
JTV 13-Nov-17
JTV 13-Nov-17
K Cummings 13-Nov-17
JTV 13-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 13-Nov-17
JTV 13-Nov-17
DConcrete 13-Nov-17
HA/KS 13-Nov-17
LINK 13-Nov-17
Glunt@work 13-Nov-17
MT in MO 13-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 13-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 13-Nov-17
JTV 13-Nov-17
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bad karma 13-Nov-17
DConcrete 13-Nov-17
JTV 13-Nov-17
bad karma 13-Nov-17
Trax 13-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 13-Nov-17
HA/KS 13-Nov-17
BIG BEAR 13-Nov-17
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mn_archer 13-Nov-17
HA/KS 13-Nov-17
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MK111 13-Nov-17
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Bowfreak 14-Nov-17
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From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
Every year, Pat's Live Kansas Bowhunt makes me wonder what the consensus is on baiting deer, or other big game.

I've bow hunted Kansas for almost 30 years with my Cuz who lives there. From the start, we decided that baiting wasn't challenging, satisfying, nor particularly ethical. So we've never done it, nor will we.

And, yes, I've heard the arguments claiming hunting food plots, or natural food sources, is no different. I simply don't buy those arguments. I think it's akin to trying to catch my horses while they feed in my pasture (almost impossible to do), versus catching them when they come to the barn twice a day for their oats. To me, the bucks Pat and others have shot on this KS property are nothing more than glorified livestock.

I know it's a personal decision, and it's a divisive subject. Should Kansas continue to allow baiting for deer? Personally, I'd like to see it go away.

Matt

From: PECO
13-Nov-17
I tried baiting in Michigan, all I accomplished was feeding the raccoons and young deer. I would rather catch them in an alfalfa field, the old apple orchard, or when they are traveling.

From: PECO
13-Nov-17
I tried baiting in Michigan, all I accomplished was feeding the raccoons and young deer. I would rather catch them in an alfalfa field, the old apple orchard, or when they are traveling.

From: Whitey
13-Nov-17
Nope, on the ground spot and stalk ,fair chase only. I do support anyone doing what they feel is right for them within the rules. But I will poke a little fun at thier methods where appropriate.

From: keepemsharp
13-Nov-17
Have hunted KS for over 40 years and have never baited, don't plan to. However it gets tougher when everyone else is. Would like to see it stopped. Also there IS a difference to bait piles and plots. Don't do plots either.

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
Whitey,

Your principles are a bit tougher than mine. While I prefer spot and stalk, I will sit in a tree stand or a ground blind when conditions call for it. I just refuse to stick a pile of corn out in front.

I think conditioning animals to come to a *specific* spot, within bow range of a shooter, doesn't require any hunting skills.

Almost every morning and evening I have between 20-40 wild turkeys come to my barn to feed on the scraps my horses leave behind. When they are near the barn, they're like domesticated chickens. I can walk right thru the middle of them without a single bird spooking. Away from the barn, they are as wily and spooky as any other wild turkeys. Killing one near my barn would be pathetically easy. I view Pat's Kansas bowhunts the same way.

Matt

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-17
Completely situational depending on the land you have available to hunt, the habitat, natural food sources, the animals themselves, and of course the law.

Opining on what others should/should not do in terms of methods and tactics, based on what one personally has available is usually never a good thing.

As to KS in particular, I have no idea. Never hunted there.

KPC

From: Glunt@work
13-Nov-17
It is what it is. I have hunted bears over bait, caught fish with bait, antelope over man-made water holes, etc.. Killing a nice whitetail over a corn pile wouldn't be as satisfying as killing one I rattled in from 500 yards away but not every walk needs to be to the top of Everest to be rewarding. If it's not harming the resource or fellow hunters opportunities, it doesn't bother me.

About 1/2 the animals I have killed over the years were lured to their death because they were thirsty, hungry, horny, looking for a fight, lonely, or curious. The other 1/2 were ambushed unexpectedly as they went about their day.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
Can I come and kill a turkey by your barn ????

From: gflight
13-Nov-17
One persons method of hunting is another persons ethical dilemma. Freedom is letting other people do things you don't like. If populations are managed well, I could care less how you harvest them.....

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
Glunt,

"If it's not harming the resource or fellow hunters opportunities, it doesn't bother me."

I guess this where it becomes a sticky wicket. In Kansas, we hunt near properties where the hunters routinely bait. I know that adversely affects the number and quality of the deer we see. But then, we could also take the lazy approach, if we cared to.

However, there are circumstances when it's not just a personnel choice. For example, I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction. Deer are lured to the Kansas side by baiting. Colorado hunters don't have that choice, since it's illegal here. So, it could be argued baiting does in fact harm fellow hunters opportunities in those cases.

Matt

From: Shuteye
13-Nov-17
The good things about baiting is you can see all kinds of birds and squirrels. It also allows you to get a good shot at a deer. Anyone that thinks you can dump a pile of corn in the woods and have deer all over it don't know what they are talking about. I cut way back last year and only shot five deer. All were at trails and none were at my feeder. I got a lot of pictures at the feeder. I try to only shoot mature does and they are pretty picky about where they go in the day time. An old doe, with fawns is the most careful of all the deer. Button and spike bucks are the dumbest. Rutting bucks aren't too smart either.

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-17
"About 1/2 the animals I have killed over the years were lured to their death because they were thirsty, hungry, horny, looking for a fight, lonely, or curious. The other 1/2 were ambushed unexpectedly as they went about their day.

When you really think about it Glunt, if you add in seeking safety, all those things you mentioned ARE their entire day. They only difference whether or not you had any part in them.

:)

KPC

From: DConcrete
13-Nov-17
I am not fond of a man telling another man his business.

You have stated you don’t like it matt, and that you don’t do it. That’s your choice and I commend you for exercising your free agency to do so.

Now please allow me my free agency to bait and stop advocating to take it away from me simply because you think it’s unethical.

From: LINK
13-Nov-17
Do I bait? Yes. Should Kansas allow it on private property? Yes.

We need less government regulation. Regulation by gov is never the answer. Is hunting over bait easier? Yes. Is it more productive? Not necessarily. It can be easier/more productive but at certain times when deer are rutting they almost avoid corn. I’ve hunted individual bucks for 40-50 days without a sighting while hunting over corn, it’s not like shaking a bucket for your horses. Try it and form your own opinions instead of imposing yours on others.

From: bad karma
13-Nov-17
When I hunted in Texas, we'd plant oat patches for the deer. It would bring in the does, but not any of the good bucks. But during the rut, if the does were around, the bucks would come with their nose to the ground at times. And yes, we use corn at Shiloh Ranch.

Even with bait, the old and wary animals grow old because they are wary. That does not change.

From: Brotsky
13-Nov-17
No, I would not bait deer anywhere. To each their own but it's not for me.

From: Bentstick81
13-Nov-17
No.

From: Whitey
13-Nov-17
I have hunted long enough not to care if I shoot an animal. It’s more about out smarting them and has been for a long time. It’s more fun to stand up and start talking with them when they have no idea you were there. The look on thier face is priceless as they walk off. Some people like the meat more than the hunt and that’s just as ok.

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-17
"I guess this where it becomes a sticky wicket. In Kansas, we hunt near properties where the hunters routinely bait. I know that adversely affects the number and quality of the deer we see. But then, we could also take the lazy approach, if we cared to."

I understand what you're saying Matt but that certainly goes both ways. I have a cabin and a small piece of property in northern Michigan. It is surrounded by mostly cedar and hemlock swamps, with varying patches of high ground (pictured). It's not the best deer hunting around but it's mine and it's where I choose to hunt.

Long story short, I have 2 mature white oaks on my property and a about a half dozen apple trees. The apple trees produce rather regularly but they are early apples (transparents) and they are gone by the time bow season rolls around, unless I pick them up with the intention of using them later. The oaks are hit and miss. Other than normal browse, that's about it in terms of natural food. About 5 years ago, Gerber Corp. leased up a bunch of land about a mile from me and they grow carrots and squash for baby food, and plant winter wheat after harvest. In the years that my trees aren't producing, I won't see a deer within a mile of my property. In the years they produce, it's not as good as it used to be, but I still see a fair amount of deer.

So, unless I want to clear what high ground I have and get into the farming business, in the years that I don't have natural food (acorns and apples), I have to lure the deer in somehow in order to hunt them, so in the years I don't have acorns I hang a feeder in order to hunt the same stands. Same with the apple trees only I might put the apples back that I picked up earlier, or buy more when they are gone.

It's interesting how the people who are used to hunting agricultural land complain when the deer are lured away, but have no problem with the fact that planted crops do the same thing to non ag parcels.

KPC

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-17

K Cummings's embedded Photo
K Cummings's embedded Photo
Sorry, forgot the pic. My cabin is the little white dot at the end of the arrow.

Good luck trying to pattern deer in this habitat without a specific food source.

:)

KPC

From: Glunt@work
13-Nov-17
The management and effects on other hunters is something I have no issue with debating. It certainly can be an issue. I would rather not see others bashed with the ethical argument. A bull elk who drops his guard and walks in to an awaiting hunter's calls due to his instinctual drive to reproduce isn't really that much different than a whitetail following his urge to eat at some dumped out corn. They both were fooled by an artificial situation that triggered their response. One is more fun in my opinion, but not necessarily more "fair".

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
KPC,

To me, there's a difference between food plots, ag parcels, natural food sources, and a pile of bait within shooting distance of your stand. Again, I cite the difference between killing a turkey at my barn versus killing one anywhere else on my property.

Nearly every buck Pat has shot in KS was killed over a pile of corn. How many of those monster bucks would he have killed without baiting them? Dare I say, not many.

For me, the appeal of archery hunting is the challenge of out-smarting game and getting close enough for an ethical shot in their environment on their terms. Conditioning game to respond like Pavlov's dog to a dinner bell, then killing them when they do, goes against the grain of what archery hunting is about, IMO.

I respect other hunters rights to their opinions, too. My point for starting this thread was to poll those other opinions, not to impose mine.

Matt

From: bigswivle
13-Nov-17
I think when you start questioning the way other people are hunting, especially when you've probably never met them or hunted with them, hunters are the only losers. I respect anyones way of hunting as long as they obey the law.

From: tonyo6302
13-Nov-17
Lets see, we got; . .

. .

Climbing stands

85% let off compounds,

Hecs suits

Ozonics

Blinds with shoot through mesh

Broadheads that expand like an AX

Activated charcoal suits

Deer Pee taken from a specific deer that has a more trackable serial number than a SSN.

Optical digitized camo patterns that fool a cervids eyes

. . . and someone is worried about legal baiting?

LOL !

From: South Farm
13-Nov-17
I've hunted the Boundary Waters most of my adult life, so I know big bucks can be shot without corn...and if you don't know what they feed on or are able to pattern them then maybe a pile of corn is really the extent of your hunting prowess. Having said that I don't care if people bait or not because when it all boils down we each hunt for our own reasons...if a deer at any cost is the summation of your hunting goals then go buy a bag of corn, but for me personally I enjoy the chase, the game, the scouting, and tag soup is part of it. I would be bored stiff sitting a corn pile the entire time.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
Is there a difference if the food plot is so small that once a deer steps into it the deer is in bow range ??? Is it OK to shoot a pronghorn at a water hole ??? How about an elk at a water hole ??? A moose at a mineral lick ??

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
Tonyo,

The obvious difference in all of those hunting aids/crutches that you listed is they don't condition animals to a specific behavior like baiting does. The turkeys at my barn couldn't care less if I'm in optically digitized camo or butt naked. They've been conditioned to act abnormally because they know it will result in an easy meal.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
What about a water hole Matt ??

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
BB,

I understand your argument. The difference for me is whether it's normal behavior, or conditioned behavior. An elk coming to a wallow is normal behavior. An antelope drinking from a cattle tank or man-made water hole is also very normal behavior in most antelope country. A monster whitetail buck feeding on a pile of cut corn kernels in broad daylight isn't normal behavior, IMO.

Matt

From: Trax
13-Nov-17
I personally don't like the idea of baiting and have no interest in doing it. I wish my state made it illegal. I won't impart my beliefs on others though except if one could make a case concerning health. CWD and other hemorrhagic diseases are for real in many areas. Even where it isn't I can't believe congregating large numbers of animals on top of the same bait piles is healthy.

From: gflight
13-Nov-17
"They've been conditioned to act abnormally because they know it will result in an easy meal."

Like Democrats picking up their checks......lol

From: Huntcell
13-Nov-17
This subject has beer beaten to death on the Wisconsin site. Posters have been dissed, dismissed, threaten, removed and banned for life.

If this was on the Wisconsin site it would be 3,2,1 thread locked!

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
Matt.... I don't know how you can argue that a wild animal coming to a cattle tank is a normal behavior... It is conditioned....... I have a food plot that you could call a kill plot. I put it there to kill deer... If a deer steps into it.... The deer is in bow range.... Is that OK ??? Also.... how many of you guys who are against baiting are OK with shooting hogs in an enclosure ???? We have a very real problem with invasive hogs getting out of shooting pens in Michigan.......

From: JTV
13-Nov-17
I dont "bait".... never have, never will, Ive hunted two states where it was legal, never used the crap and I still killed deer ... thank God it is illegal to bait here .... you should ask LHM (lefthanded dipwad)... he's the master baiter around here ...

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
Jeff... have you ever bear hunted over bait ??

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-17
"For me, the appeal of archery hunting is the challenge of out-smarting game and getting close enough for an ethical shot in their environment on their terms. Conditioning game to respond like Pavlov's dog to a dinner bell, then killing them when they do, goes against the grain of what archery hunting is about, IMO."

Virtually all whitetails are creatures of habit. Regardless of what the food source is, unless disturbed, deer are going to usually take the same trails to access the food source and the same trails to return to bedding areas. They use the same escape routes when pressured and the bucks check out the same areas frequented by does during the rut.

I've hunted heavily managed habitat in Illinois and I can assure you that the deer were much more predictable traveling small woodlots between bean fields than anything I have "created" here in MI. It was never a matter of seeing deer within shooting range, or even nice bucks within shooting range, it was only a matter of seeing one that met the minimum size requirement of the specific hunter or the area we were hunting.

The same trails are used so frequently, by so many deer, over so many years, that they are literally depressions in the ground. One morning, I had a hot doe urinate under my stand. For the next couple hours I literally had a parade of different bucks come down the trail and check it out. From spikes and forks to basket eights and a ten that would score about 120"...all within about 10 yards of my stand. That doesn't even count the real monsters I glassed out in the field that never came my way. I saw more bucks and better quality bucks in that two hour period than I've seen in 20 years at my own camp. Sounds like fun, right? In all honesty, it's why I no longer hunt those places any more. It literally ruined hunting at my own camp for a while.

People find their own challenges where they will. I would much rather shoot a 2.5 year old 8 point with my recurve or longbow, coming in to check out does at my feeder, at my camp than to shoot a 150" monster with a tricked out compound or crossbow on a managed piece of property.

That's why I am all for game departments setting the rules and regulations based on what their management goals are, and letting each hunter decided what they want out of the experience, within the parameters of those regulations.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
Ha !! Kevin.... I've owned my 20 acres in the U.P. Since 2009...... in those 9 years... a grand total of 2 deer have been killed on my property..... I guess I should stop conditioning those poor deer and giving myself an unfair advantage by baiting...... Ha !!!!!

From: Mint
13-Nov-17
Funny thing is I hunted Kansas twice at two different outfitters. Each time I saw the biggest bucks where there wasn't corn around. Hunted the rows of cedars between fields. As long as it is legal I'm fine with it. In NYS baiting is illegal but it is rampant on long island where I hunt. There is so much baiting and poaching at night of big bucks it is pathetic. Every year I find bait piles and mineral blocks on public land so you know on private land it is much worse.

From: jjs
13-Nov-17
Use to hunt the UP of Mi. and it was funny how much corn was piled on, was hunting between public and private and the guy stop me on a trail coming out and complain about the guy down the road that dumped a huge pile of corn and it was taking away deer from his bait pile. I started to hunt the early season when deer were less condition and still on natural movement before the gravity boxes start dropping the corn and now you got the x-gun added which makes a more negative hunting experience on the public and they call it bow hunting.

From: JTV
13-Nov-17
nope, but I understand the need for it for bears, same for dog running bears.... "bait" & "dump it and they will come" isnt needed for deer and ungulates ...... JJS, I also hunted the UP, never needed "bait" for deer, same for when I lived in Texas.... ... it churned my stomach to see guys dumping crap loads of apples, beets, corn and the like..... one reason I quit going up there ...

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
A compound bow isn't needed either..... If you're going to put down other guys that use a legal method of hunting.... The least you could do is use the most challenging method of bow hunting..... and limit yourself to spot and stalk with a longbow or recurve..... or better yet a selfbow......And if you want to keep going there..... Any man that says he's never been a "Master Baiter"...... Is a LIAR............. Just Sayin......

From: DConcrete
13-Nov-17
Jtv, have you ever noticed how anyone who disagrees with you, or how anyone who does things differently than you must be lazy and stupid?

You really need to get a life.

I love the argument that people are lazy that bait.

You’re welcome anytime To come out and bait with me. I’ll even pay your way.

What you call lazy, I call fun. I love packing bait in 2 miles and 1500 vertical foot gain.I love seeing the animals that benefit. Especially after a harsh winter and they can use a freebie.

I also love hearing all about your conservative beliefs, backed up by what you think should be illegal for everyone else. It’s alwYs you telling another man what to do, how to do it.

Your schtick has gotten about as old and joshuaF’s song.

Give it up, you have to be the most miserable SOB to even know or be around. Let alone be married to.

From: Jimbo
13-Nov-17
DConcrete, the last sentence of your post hits the nail square on the head!

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-17
"...bait" & "dump it and they will come" isnt needed for deer and ungulates..."

"...never needed "bait" for deer..."

A lot of things aren't "needed" to bow hunt deer.

Among them are compounds, crossbows, sights, drop-away rests, lighted nocks, carbon arrows, mechanical broad heads, release aids, tree stands, lighted nocks, scents, calls, camo, Scent Loc, guides, antler restrictions, QDM, food plots, mineral supplements, trail cams, etc., etc., etc....all designed to make some aspect of the hunt easier.

I fail to see your point.

KPC

From: HA/KS
13-Nov-17
"I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction"

I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.

From: JTV
13-Nov-17
Just what the hell are you two twits yammerin' about... I said I UNDERSTAND the need for baiting bear, but it isnt needed for Ungulates... "Ungulates", thats deer and elk for those in Rio Linda, Utah and Michigan ..... if that's the crap you want to dump where legal, have at it, but I am very greatfull our DNR has deemed it illegal here .....

From: DConcrete
13-Nov-17
I know you’re glad that you have your big brother, tells you how to crap, government to tell everyone else how to do things.

Keep that in your neck of the woods

You fit right in in the state you reside.

And like I said, you have a standing invitation to come bait the ungulates. In fact, I have a winter one coming up here real quick.

From: JTV
13-Nov-17
Chronic Wasting Disease and the Science in Support of the Ban on Baiting and Feeding Deer Friday, 14 February 2003 00:00 Chronic Wasting Disease and the Science in support of the Ban on Baiting and Feeding Deer.

Timothy R. Van Deelen Ph.D. Wisconsin DNR Research

Summary Reliable science provides support for a ban of baiting and feeding of white-tailed deer to reduce disease risks for Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD). Peer-reviewed research papers published in reputable scientific journals indicate the following:

· CWD is transmitted laterally (live diseased deer infect other deer) · Deer can get CWD by ingesting something contaminated with the disease prion · CWD prions may be shed in feces and saliva · Disease course and symptoms indicate high potential for transmission where deer are concentrated · Evidence from captive situations indicates that deer can get CWD from highly contaminated environments. · Baiting and Feeding causes unnatural concentration of deer · Reduction of contact through a ban on baiting and feeding is likely very important to eradicating or containing a CWD outbreak. · Baiting and feeding continues to put Wisconsin’s deer herd at risk to other serious diseases

In addition, experts in CWD, wildlife disease and deer nutrition support bans on baiting and feeding as part of a comprehensive strategy to prevent and/or manage CWD.

Under a baiting and feeding ban, disease outbreaks are more likely to be smaller in scale and more apt to be contained or eliminated. With the long CWD incubation period and other factors that make discovery of a new outbreak difficult, an outbreak that is already widespread when detected because of baiting and feeding may not be able to be contained or eliminated.

This document provides details and explicit links to the supporting science.

Chronic Wasting Disease and the Science behind the Ban on Baiting and Feeding Deer.

Some critics claim that there is no scientific support for the judgment that resulted in the ban. This is simply untrue. In this document, I review some of the scientific evidence in support of the baiting and feeding ban.

The science in support of the ban on baiting and feeding is strong and comes from a number of diverse scientific sub-disciplines (veterinary medicine, wildlife ecology, biochemistry, physiology, etc.). Consequently, there is no single comprehensive study or paper that, by itself, demonstrates the CWD-related effects of baiting and feeding of wild deer (good or bad). Evaluating the science relative to baiting and feeding requires integration of scientific evidence from several different sub-disciplines.

The quality of scientific evidence is an issue for some critics who claim that other science or other experts fail to support the ban. It is also an issue in trying to reach an objective scientific judgment. In keeping with established scientific practice, I consider articles published in reputable, peer-reviewed, scientific literature to be of the highest quality. Peer-review insures that articles have been rigorously evaluated and endorsed by qualified specialists. A secondary level of scientific rigor is the unpublished opinion or unpublished research of recognized experts working on the topic of interest. An example of this would be the opinion or unpublished research on CWD transmission from investigators who have established their expertise through peer-reviewed publication on other CWD-related topics. A very distant third level of quality is the unpublished opinion of recognized experts working on distantly related topics. Again, scientific expertise is demonstrated by frequent publication in reputable peer-reviewed scientific journals.

The following is a partial list of scientific evidence that suggests that baiting and feeding of wild deer elevates the risk of CWD transmission. This list focuses almost entirely on disease risks posed by CWD although other diseases (e.g. Bovine Tuberculosis) may pose even greater risks and there are many other reasons (e.g. ecological, social, nutritional) why baiting and feeding deer is inappropriate management. This list is intended to be explicit in its links to peer-reviewed science. Complete literature citations are included at the end of the document for readers who want to read the original scientific articles.

· CWD is transmitted laterally (live diseased deer infect other deer) Researchers who have studied CWD epidemics in both captive and free-ranging deer populations have determined that CWD is both contagious and self-sustaining (meaning that new infections occur fast enough for CWD to persist or increase over time despite the more rapid deaths of the diseased individuals; Miller et al 1998, 2000). Supporting evidence comes from observational data (Williams and Young 1992; Miller et al. 1998, 2000) experimental data, and epidemiological models fit to observed prevalences in free-living deer (Miller et al. 2000, Gross and Miller 2001, M. W. Miller unpublished in Williams et al. 2002). These studies suggest that observed prevalences and rates of spread of CWD in real populations could not occur without lateral transmission. For example, maternal transmission (doe to fawn) if it occurs, is rare and cannot explain most cases where epidemiologic data are available( Miller et al. 1998, 2000). Similarly, indirect lateral transmisson (e.g. from a contaminated environment) may require unusually high levels of contamination (see below; Williams et al. 2002). Nonetheless, emerging research from Colorado suggests that indirect lateral transmission from environmental contamination appears to play a role in sustained and recurrent epidemics (Miller 2002).

· Deer can get CWD by ingesting something contaminated with the disease prion Six mule deer fawns were fed a daily dose of 2g (0.07 ounces) of brain tissue from CWD-positive mule deer in a tightly controlled experiment for 5 days. Another three were fed the same doses using brain tissue from CWD-negative mule deer. All deer were held separately in indoor pens that had never before held deer. The fawns were then killed and necropsied at specific intervals 10 to 80 days post-inoculation. At 42 days and later post inoculation, all fawns dosed with CWD-positive tissue tested positive for CWD prions in lymph tissues associated with their digestive tracts (Sigurdson et al. 1999). Other transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs; Kuru, transmissible mink encephalopathy, bovine spongiform encephalopathy[BSE]) appear to be transmitted through ingestion of prion-infected tissue as well (Weissmann et al. 2002). Due to the human health crisis associated with eating BSE-infected beef in Europe, many other researchers working with TSEs, including CWD (Sigurdson et al 1999, 2001), have traced the movements of infectious prions of orally-infected animals through the lymph tissue embedded in the intestinal lining, into nervous tissues associated with the digestive tract (e.g. Maignien et al 1999, Beekes and McBride 2000, Heggebo et al. 2000, Huang et al. 2002) and eventually to the brain via the nervous system (Sigurdson et al. 2001, Weissmann et al. 2002). Experimental studies using hamsters have shown that prions can infect through minor wounds in the skin (Taylor et al. 1996) and that infection through minor wounds on the tongue was more efficient than infection from ingestion (Bartz et al. 2003). These studies not only demonstrate that an oral route of infection is possible, but are beginning to provide specific details about the pathways involved in the movement of infectious prions into the central nervous system and other organs (Weissmann et al. 2002).

· CWD prions may be shed in feces and saliva Following oral exposure, prions associated with many TSEs (Maignien et al 1999, Huang et al. 2002) including CWD (Sigurdson et al. 1999; Miller and Williams 2002 and Spraker et al. 2002 cited in Williams et al. 2002) both accumulate and replicate in the lymph tissues associated with the gastrointestinal tract – particularly in lymph tissues in contact with the mucosa lining the inside of the intestines (e.g. Peyer’s patches, Weismann et al. 2002). In infected deer, CWD prions also accumulate in the pancreas and various other glands of the endocrine system (Sigurdson et al 2001). Experiments with hamsters demonstrated that infectious prions can travel from the brain to the tongue along tongue-associated cranial nerves (Bartz et al. 2003). During digestion, the liver, pancreas, intestinal mucosa, and other glands secrete chemicals needed for digestion (Robbins 1983) and cells lining the inner surface of the intestine continuously die and slough off providing potential physical mechanisms for prion shedding into the intestines (others are likely). This is evidence that infectious prions are likely shed in the feces and saliva (Sigurdson et al. 1999). · Disease course and symptoms indicate high potential for transmission where deer are concentrated Appearance of CWD symptoms in an infected deer lags initial exposure by a variable time period on the order of roughly12-24 months or more ([E. S. Williams and M. W. Miller unpublished; E. S. Williams, M. W. Miller, and T. J. Kreeger unpublished] cited in Williams et al. 2002). Once clinical symptoms are observed, deer enter a symptomatic phase that may last on average 1-4 months before they invariably die (Williams et al. 2002). Symptoms are initially subtle but eventually include behaviors likely to contaminate a site with bodily fluids (e.g. excess urination, excess salivation including drooling and slobbering, and uncontrollable regurgitation, Williams et al. 2002). Deposition of feces increases with concentration of deer activity. This is both obvious and intuitive and pellet group counts have been used as an index of deer density since the 1940’s (Bennet et al. 1940). During winter, northern deer defecate about 22 times a day (Rogers 1987). At least one study (Shaked et al. 2001) has reported detection of an altered form of the infectious prion in the urine of hamsters, cattle, and humans with TSEs. This altered form, while not as virulent, produced sub-clinical prion infections following experimental inoculation. Shedding of infectious prions is likely progressive during the course of disease from infection to death (Williams et al. 2002). Replication and presence of infectious prions in gut-associated lymph tissue early in the incubation (Sigurdson et al. 1999, Weismann et al. 2002) and epidemiological modeling (M. W. Miller unpublished cited in Williams et al. 2002) suggest that shedding precedes the onset of symptoms in both elk and mule deer. In this regard, Garner (2001) documented a particularly alarming behavior among deer using frozen feed piles. Deer used the heat from their mouths and nostrils to thaw and dislodge food such that frozen feed piles were dented with burrows made from deer noses. He reported that “Throughout the winter multiple numbers of deer were observed working in and around the same feed piles. I suspect that each deer that feeds this way at a frozen feed pile leaves much of its own saliva and nasal droppings in the field pile at which its working”(Garner 2001, p. 46).

· Evidence from captive situations indicates that deer can get CWD from highly contaminated environments. In addition to direct lateral transmission, researchers suspect that deer can be infected indirectly from contaminated environments. Contaminated pastures “appear to have served as sources in some CWD epidemics although these observations are anecdotal and not yet corroborated by controlled studies” (Miller et al 1998, [M. W. Miller unpublished and E. S. Williams, W. E. Cook, and T. J. Kreeger unpublished] cited in Williams et al 2002). The potential for transmission from the environment is a function of the degree of contamination and the resistance of disease prions to chemical breakdown (Williams et al 2001, 2002). Consequently, the highest prevalences recorded for CWD outbreaks have been in captive situations (Williams and Young 1980, Williams et al. 2002) where because of abnormal concentration, indirect and direct transmission likely occur together (Williams et al. 2002). At high concentration, the persistence of the CWD prion in contaminated environments, may be a serious obstacle to disease eradication (Williams et al. 2002).

· Baiting and Feeding causes unnatural concentration of deer People use baiting and feeding to concentrate deer for enhanced hunter opportunity or viewing. In northern deer, seasonal concentration in deeryards is a well-known phenomenon (Blouch 1984). However, the potential for close animal-to-animal contact over a feed pile is fundamentally different than the contact yarded deer experience while foraging on natural food. In deeryards, deer eat a variety of woody browse plants and arboreal lichens (Blouch 1984) scattered across a large area. In terms of biomass and nutrition, the best source of browse and lichens may be litter-fall rather than live plant material growing in the understory (Ditchkoff and Servello 1998). Food sources in deer yards (litter and understory plants) are widely distributed over a large area and they are not replaced. Moreover, browse is typically held aloft on the plant stem such that fecal contamination is less likely. Foraging by wintering deer is an optimization process. Energy gains associated with eating need to be balanced against energy costs associated with travel and exposure (Moen 1976). Yarded deer with little or no access to supplemental food maintain relatively large overlapping home ranges (e.g. 110 acres in Minnesota [Nelson and Mech 1981], 480 acres in Michigan [Van Deelen 1995], 318 acres in Quebec [Lesage et al. 2000]) suggesting that foraging widely on a diffuse food source is normal. Garner (2001) monitored 160 radio-collared deer for 2 fall/winter periods in northern Michigan and documented their behavior over feeding sites using both telemetry and direct observations. He demonstrated that, relative to natural forage, supplemental feeding caused reduced home range sizes, increased overlap of home ranges in space and time and dramatic concentrations of activity around feeding sites.

· Reduction of contact through a ban on baiting and feeding is likely very important to eradicating or containing a CWD outbreak. Epidemiological models fit to real-world data on CWD outbreaks in mule deer predict that local extinction of infected deer populations is likely (Gross and Miller 2001). The predicted outcomes of these models are highly sensitive to input estimates of the amount of contact between infected and susceptible deer meaning that small reductions in contact rates can dramatically reduce the rate at which prevalence changes during an epidemic (Gross and Miller 2001). Garner (2001) demonstrated that baiting and feeding was associated with deer concentration, extensive face-to-face contacts, and increasing overlap of deer home ranges. White-tailed deer have contacts from social and grooming behaviors apart from contact over baiting and feeding sites (Marchinton and Hirth 1984) but social groups of whitetails tend to be small during most of the year (4-6 individuals, Hawkins and Klimstra 1970). Whitetail physiology and behavior are adapted to selective foraging on nutritious plants (Putman 1988). Moreover, social groups tend to exclude one another by using different areas or by using shared areas at different times (Mathews 1989, Porter et al. 1991). Concentration of deer activity over feeding sites increase both direct and indirect contact between groups by increasing home range and core area overlap and by increasing the amount of time that unrelated deer feed in close proximity to each other (Garner 2001). Eliminating these contacts has added significance because CWD is a uniquely difficult disease to manage and study. There is no treatment and no vaccine. Moreover CWD is difficult to track in a population because of long incubation periods, subtle early clinical signs, a resistant infectious agent, potential for environmental contamination and incomplete understanding of transmission mechanisms. These characteristics make prevention critically important (Williams et al. 2002).

· Baiting and feeding continues to put Wisconsin’s deer herd at risk to other serious diseases CWD is not the only infectious disease that threatens Wisconsin’s deer herd. One, Bovine Tuberculosis (TB) warrants special attention because the link to baiting and feeding is clear. TB is an infectious bacterial disease that is spread from animal to animal through inhalation of infectious aerosols or ingestion of other infectious body fluids (e.g. saliva). TB bacteria can live outside of an animal for as long as 16 weeks on a frozen feed pile (Whipple and Palmer 2000 cited in Garner 2001) and Garner (2001) demonstrated that supplemental food increased close contact among wild deer through a number of mechanisms. Garner (2001) also demonstrated extensive home range overlap between a TB-positive deer and 15 other radio-collared deer in northern Michigan. Recent epidemiological research suggests that baiting and feeding of deer enabled the TB outbreak in Michigan to persist and spread and that declines in TB prevalence were associated with a ban on baiting and feeding (O’Brien et al. 2002). Current attention is focused on the CWD outbreak in southwestern Wisconsin. However, should CWD or other infectious disease show up elsewhere, baiting and feeding are likely to facilitate or enhance an epidemic. TB has been confirmed on 6 captive game farms in Wisconsin and the presence of over 800 captive cervid farms statewide suggests that the disease risks associated with baiting and feeding are not confined to the known CWD-infected area of southern Wisconsin.

· What do the experts say relative to artificial feeding and CWD and disease transmission?

A discussion of CWD in a review of the scientific literature on captive deer done for The Wildlife Society (Professional society for wildlife biologists, managers, and researchers; publisher of 3 premier peer-reviewed scientific journals on wildlife ecology and management)… “Concentration of deer and elk in captivity or in the wild by artificial feeding may increase the likelihood of transmission between individuals.” (DeMarais et al. 2002, p. 6).

In a review of the technical literature on CWD by the top CWD specialists in the world… “Concentrating deer and elk in captivity or by artificial feed probably increases the likelihood of direct and indirect transmission between individuals. Transmission via contact between susceptible and infectious individuals probably requires more than just transient exposure. Thus, minimal fence-line exposure does not pose excessive risk of transmission; however, prolonged fence-line contact increases the possibility of transmission” (Williams et al. 2002, p.557).

In a peer-reviewed paper on the epidemiology of Bovine TB by the team of veterinarians, epidemiologists, and wildlife researchers working to contain the outbreak in Michigan… “Previous qualitative examinations of the origins of tested deer already suggested that TB positive animals were more likely to come from the core area. Our new analysis quantifies that risk. The high risk associated with the core coincides with an area of historically prevalent and intensive baiting and supplemental feeding of deer – practices that were likely crucial to the establishment of self-sustaining TB in the deer population” (O’Brein et al. 2002 and citations within).

In oral presentations given to the Texas chapter of the Society of Range Management (Oct. 6 2000) and to the Southeaster Deer Study Group (Feb. 19 2001) by Dr. Robert D. Brown, Professor and Head of the Department of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences at Texas A&M University, Internationally recognized expert on deer and deer nutrition… “One of the major points of this paper is the concern over transmission of disease. It amazes me that we have not done more studies in Texas on disease transmission at food plots and deer feeders, whether they be for supplementing the deer or for baiting. We know that in 1994 tuberculosis (TB) was first detected in wild deer in Michigan. It is now in a 5-county area, and has spread to carnivores and dairy herds”…”In Wyoming and around Yellowstone Park, brucellosis is wide spread among cattle, elk, and bison, the latter two species being concentrated on feeding grounds in the winter. Likewise, Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) has now been observed in free-ranging elk and mule deer in several western states. Since CWD is passed animal to animal, concentrations caused by supplemental feeding is believed to increase the spread of the disease” (Brown Unpublished).

In a report issued by a panel of internationally recognized wildlife disease experts who reviewed Colorado’s CWD management program… “Regulations preventing…feeding and baiting of cervids should be continued” (Peterson et al. 2002).

In a comprehensive review of the ecological and human social effects of artificial feeding and baiting of wildlife prepared by the Canadian Cooperative Wildlife Health Centre, Department of Veterinary Pathology, University of Saskatchewan… “Significant ecological effects of providing food to wildlife have been documented through observation and experimentation at the individual, population, and community levels. The increased potential for disease transmission and outbreak is perhaps of greatest and immediate concern; recent outbreaks of bovine tuberculosis and chronic wasting disease in Canada and the United States giving credence to this point. Nevertheless, even if disease is prevented, other significant ecological concerns exist” (Dunkley and Cattet 2003, p. 22).

Review and Acknowledgments To insure that this document accurately reflects the scientific knowledge of prion disease, CWD, and deer biology, this document was reviewed by the following specialists (position and expertise follows each name). I thank them for their time. : · Judd Aiken Ph.D. (Professor of animal health and biomedical sciences, UW-Madison; prion diseases) · Valerius Geist Ph.D (Professor Emeritus, Department of Environmental Science, University of Calgary; ecology behavior and management of deer) · Julia Langenberg DVM (Wildlife Veterinarian, Wisconsin DNR; CWD, wildlife diseases) · Nohra Mateus-Pinilla DVM, Ph.D. (Research Epidemiologist, Illinois Natural History Survey, University of Illinois; wildlife diseases, epidemiology) · Nancy Mathews Ph.D. (Assoc. Professor of wildlife ecology, UW-Madison; deer ecology and behavior) · Keith McCaffery M.S. (Deer specialist, Wisconsin DNR, retired; deer ecology and management) · Robert Rolley Ph.D. (Population Ecologist, Wisconsin DNR; population dynamics, deer management)

Literature cited

BARTZ, J. C., A. E. KINCAID, and R. A. BESSEN. 2003. Rapid prion neuroinvasion following tongue infection. Journal of Virology 77:583-591.

BENNETT, L. J., P. F. ENGLISH, and R. MCCAIN. 1940. A study of deer populations by use of pellet-group counts. Journal of Wildlife Management 37:195-201.

BEEKES, M. and P. A. MCBRIDE. 2000. Early accumulation of pathological PrP in the enteric nervous system and gut-associated lymphoid tissue of hamsters orally infected with scrapie. Neuroscience Letters 278:181-184.

BLOUCH, R. I. 1984. Northern Great Lakes and Ontario forests. Pages 391-410 in L. K. Sowls, editor. White-tailed deer: ecology and management. Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, USA.

DITCHKOFF, S. S., and F. A. SERVELLO. 1998. Litterfall: an overlooked food source for wintering white-tailed deer. Journal of Wildlife Management 62:250-255.

DEMARAIS, S., R. W. DEYOUNG, L. J. LYON, E. S. WILLIAMS, S. J. WILLIAMSON, and G. J. WOLFE. 2002. Biological and social issues related to confinement of wild ungulates. Wildlife Society Technical Review 02-3, 29pp. (available at: http://www.wildlife.org/publications/index.cfm?tname=pubs&pubid=pub20)

DUNKLEY, L., AND M. R. L. CATTET. 2003. A comprehensive review of the ecological and human social effects of artificial feeding and baiting of wildlife. Canadian Cooperative Wildlife Health Centre, Department of Veterinary Pathology, University of Saskatchewan, CANADA. (available at: http://wildlife.usask.ca/english/CCWHCFeedingBaitingReportFinal_Feb2003.pdf)

GARNER, M. S. 2001. Movement patterns and behavior at winter feeding and fall baiting stations in a population of white-tailed deer infected with bovine tuberculosis in the northeastern lower peninsula of Michigan. Dissertation, Michigan State University, East Lansing, USA.

HAWKINS, R. E., and W. D. KLIMSTRA. 1970. A preliminary study of the social organization of white-tailed deer. Journal of Wildlife Management 34:407-419.

HEGGEBO, R., C. MCL. PRESS, G. GUNNES, K. I. INGLE, M.A. TRANULIS, M. ULVUND, and T. LANDSVERK. 2000. Distribution of prion protien in the ileal Peyer’s patch pf scrapie-free lambs and lambs naturally and experimentally exposed to the scrapie agent. Journal of General Virology 81:2327-2337.

HUANG, F-P, C. F. FARQUHAR, N. A. MABBOTT, M. E. BRUCE, and G. G. MACPHERSON. 2002. Migrating intestinal dendritic cells transport PrPSc from the gut. Journal of General Virology 83:267-271.

LESAGE, L., M. CRETE, J. HUOT, A. DUMONT, and J.-P. OUELLET. 2000. Seasonal home range size and philopatry in two northern white-tailed deer populations. Canadian Journal of Zoology 78:1930-1940.

MAIGNIEN, T. C. I. LASMEZAS, V. BERNGUE, D. DORMONT, and J-P. DESLYS. 1999. Pathogensis of the oral route of infection of mice with srapie and bovine spongiform encephalopathy agents. Journal of General Virology 80:3035-3042.

MARCHINTON, R. L., and D. H. HIRTH. 1984. Behavior. pp. 129-168 in L. K. Sowls, editor. White-tailed deer: ecology and management. Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, USA.

MILLER, M. W. 2002. Temporal and spatial dynamics of chronic wasting disease epidemics. p. 9 in R. H. Kahn, coordinator. Chronic wasting disease symposium. Denver, CO, August 6-7. CO Division of Wildlife, Fort Collins, CO. Abstract.

MOEN, A. N. 1976. Energy conservation by white-tailed deer in the winter. Ecology 57:192-197.

NELSON. M. E., and L. D. MECH. 1981. Deer social organization and wolf predation in northeastern Minnesota. Wildlife Monographs 77:53pp.

O’BRIEN, D. J., S.M. SCHMITT, J.S. FIERKE, S.A. HOGLE, S.R. WINTERSTEIN, T.M. COOLEY, W.E. MORITZ, K.L. DIEGEL, S.D. FITZGERALD, D.E. BERRY, and J.B. KANEENE. 2002. Epidemiology of Mycobacterium bovis in free-ranging white-tailed deer, Michigan, USA, 1995-2000. Preventive Veterinary Medicine 54(2002):47-63.

PETERSON, M. J., M.D. SAMUEL, V.F. NETTLES, G. WOBESER, and W.D. HUESTON. 2002. Review of chronic wasting disease management policies and programs in Colorado. Colorado Division of Wildlife Unpublished Report, Denver, Colorado, USA.

PORTER, W. F., N. E. MATHEWS, H. B. UNDERWOOD, R. W. SAGE, JR, and D. F. BEHREND. 1991. Social organization in deer: implications for localized management. Environmental Management 15:809-814.

PUTMAN, R. 1988. The natural history of deer. Cornell University Press, Ithica, NY, USA.

ROBBINS, C. T.1983. Wildlife feeding and nutrition. Academic Press. New York. NY. USA.

ROGERS, L. L. 1987. Seasonal changes in defecation rates of free-ranging white-tailed deer. Journal of Wildlife Management 51:330-333.

SHAKED, G. M., Y. SHAKED, Z. KARIV-INBAL, M. HALIMI, I. AVRAHAM, and R. GABIZON. 2001. A protease-resistant prion protien isoform is present in urine of animals and humans affected with prion diseases. The Journal of Biological Chemistry 276:31479-31482. (available at: http://www.jbc.org)

SIGURDSON, C. J., E. S. WILLIAMS, M. W. MILLER, T. R. SPRAKER, K. I. O’ROURKE, and E. A. HOOVER. Oral transmission and early lymphoid tropism of chronic wasting disease PrPres in mule deer fawns (Odocoileus hemonionus). Journal of General Virology 80:2757-2764.

SIGURDSON, C. J., T. R. SPRAKER, M. W. MILLER, B. OESCH, and E. A. HOOVER. 2001. PrPCWD in the myenteric plexus, vagosympathic trunk and endocrine glands of deer with chronic wasting disease. Journal of General Virology 82:2327-2334.

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WEISSMANN, C., M. ENARI, P.-C. KLOHN, D. ROSSI, and E. FLECHSIG. 2002. Transmission of prions. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 99:16378-16383.

WILLIAMS, E. S., M. W. MILLER, T. J. KREEGER, R. H. KAHN, and E. T. THORNE. 2002. Chronic Wasting disease of deer and elk: a review with recommendations

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From: JTV
13-Nov-17
In 2014, the state of Wisconsin has banned deer baiting in 35 counties impacted by Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD). ... There is significant evidence that feeding deer can perpetuate diseases like Bovine Tuberculosis (TB) and CWD.Nov 12, 2014 from MSUED.com

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-17
"...if that's the crap you want to dump where legal, have at it..."

That's exactly the way I feel about compounds, crossbows, sights, drop-away rests, lighted nocks, mechanical broad heads, release aids, lighted nocks, scents, calls, Scent Loc, guides, antler restrictions, QDM, food plots, mineral supplements, etc...

Maybe they need some or all of those things to kill ungulates in Indiana and Kansas, but not where I hunt.

Funny how that all works.

KPC

From: JTV
13-Nov-17
Disease transmission and baiting ..

https://www.alabamawildlife.org/uploadedFiles/Deer%20Management%20Issues.pdf

DEER MANAGEMENT ISSUES BAITING / SUPPLEMENTAL FEEDING A. DISEASE 1. In Michigan, where bovine Tuberculosis (TB) exists in wild deer and elk, scientists believe that the maintenance of bovine TB in white-tailed deer is directly related to supplemental feeding/baiting and the increased focal densities these practices create (Schmitt et al. 1977). The unnatural circumstances of supplemental feeding promote inhalation of bovine TB bacteria or consumption of feed contaminated with the bacteria from animals coughing and exhaling (Schmitt et al. 1997). 2. Although it is difficult to attribute the spread of disease to deer density alone, some disease problems occur more commonly in areas of high density (Eve 1981), such as might occur with baiting. 3. The evidence that deer baiting causes the spread of diseases is well documented (McCaffery 2000, Mich. DNR 1999). 4. Large quantities of grain, or the sudden ingestion of feed high in carbohydrates without acclimation results in acidic conditions in a deer's rumen (stomach). This kills the bacteria necessary for digestion and causes bloating, diarrhea, enteritis, and in extreme cases death. The visible affects on deer include lameness, arthritis, and a decrease in appetite (Lyons 2000). This condition reportedly occurs yearly in Michigan (Mich. DNR 1999). During a severe winter in Saskatchewan 30% of the deer found dead near cattle feedlots were diagnosed with lactic acidosis (Wobster and Runge 1975). Deer have been found dead and suffering due to this condition in Wisconsin, but the widespread affect is not known (Langenberg 2001). 5. Tuberculosis, a bacterial disease of the respiratory system, can be injurious to deer, cattle and humans (Hyde 1998, Schmitt et al. 1997). 6. Aflatoxin are extremely toxic chemicals produced by two molds, Aspergillus flavus and Aspergillus parasiticus, which are widely associated with moldy corn. Aflatoxins can lower deer reproduction and cause mortality of wild turkey, quail, songbirds and mourning doves (Davis 1996). 7. Despite supplemental feeding, wildlife populations may exhibit poor physical condition and experience malnutrition if their numbers grow to exceed the amount of nourishment provided by the supplemental food. As examples, white-tailed deer on Long Island in Lake Winnespesaukee, New Hampshire, and on Monhegan Island, Maine, were in much poorer condition than mainland deer, even though both island deer populations were supplementally fed by residents (Lavigne and Dumont 1996, Weber 1997). Supplemental feeding does not prevent malnourishment - it just increases the population size at which malnourishment occurs (Pekin and Tarr 1997). 8. Perhaps the best cumulation of arguments against supplemental feeding was most recently produced by the Wildlife Management Institute (Williamson 2000). In this easily readable and well-referenced brochure, Scott Williamson, formerly a biologist in Texas, states, "When and where such feeding is done, it is undertaken only, if not expressly-for the interest of people, because fed animals almost invariably will not benefit and will very likely be harmed by the practice." 9. The provision of food to wildlife has been implicated widely as a causative factor that increases the occurrence of infectious disease. Animals are attracted to artificial sources of feed in higher density than normally occurs under natural conditions (Thorne and Herriges 1992, Williams et al. 1993, Fischer et al. 1997). As animal density increases, competition for food also increases resulting in more frequent contact among individuals (Baker and Hobbs 1985, Schmitt et al. 1997). Contact can be direct through physical contact, or indirect as occurs when two animals share the same portion of food. If one or more animals are harboring an infectious organism or prion, its transmission to uninfected individuals is facilitated by the increased frequency of contact among animals congregating at the feeding site (Miller et al. 1998, Michigan Bovine TB Eradication Project 2002). It is also suggested stress from crowding reduces immunocompetence in some animals, increasing the likelihood of disease (Smith and Roffe 1994, Smith 2001). Disease can affect individual animals, populations, or communities. Depending on the nature of the disease and the feeding location, disease can be transmitted within or between species (Schmitt et al. 1997, Smith 2001), between wildlife and domestic animals (Thorne and Herriges 1992), or even between wildlife and humans (Rupprecht et al. 1995). Non-infectious disease also can occur when wild species are fed foods incompatible with their digestive function (Wobster and Runge 1975), foods of poor nutritional quality (Ohio Wildlife Center 2000), or spoiled foods that have become toxic (Perkins 1991, Davis 1996, Breed 2002). 10. High concentrations of deer around feeding and baiting sites facilitate disease transmission through increased animal-to-animal contact and possibly through contamination of feed (Palmer et al. 2001, Schmitt et al. 2002). 11. In Fort Collins, Colorado, artificial feeding by private citizens is believed to have contributed to the infection of 49 free-ranging cervids with chronic wasting disease (Spraker et al. 1997). Experimental and circumstantial evidence suggests infected animals probably transmit the disease through animal-to-animal contact, and through contamination of food or water sources with body fluids (saliva, urine) and feces (Williams and Young 1980, Miller et al. 1998) Further, conditions of high animal density or confinement can create conditions where transmission of CWD occurs at a faster rate than under natural conditions (Miller et al. 2000). 12. White-tailed deer receiving artificial feed in Maine have suffered from outbreaks of demodectic mange caused by the spread of mites while at feeding stations (Maine Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife 2002, see www.state.me.us/ifw/hunt/deerfeed.htm). 13. Winter feeding of white-tailed deer can lead to starvation of some individuals if the feeding delays the migration of deer to their winter yards, or if artificial feeding is terminated abruptly (Ozoga and Verme 1982). 14. Recent epidemiological research suggests that baiting and feeding of deer enabled the TB outbreak in Michigan to persist and spread and that declines in TB prevalence were associated with a ban on baiting and feeding (O'Brien et al 2002).

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
The "if it's legal, I don't have a problem with it" responses don't really answer my original questions, which were: Would you bait deer in KS, and do you think it should be legal there?

My answer is "no" to both questions.

Matt

From: JTV
13-Nov-17
GG, I agree ...... Would I bait... no... should it be legal... no

From: DConcrete
13-Nov-17
And I don’t think it should be legal to kill A mule deer during a rut hunt, and then not be able to consume the meat because you can’t handle the taste.

Ban rut hunting!!

From: HA/KS
13-Nov-17
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction"

I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.

From: LINK
13-Nov-17
So if I plant 5 acres of corn and once a week a week i mow a strip, that’s acceptable in GG eyes? Or is it only if i don’t mow it?

From: Glunt@work
13-Nov-17
1. No

2. I don't know enough to decide. Limiting freedom can't be taken lightly.

From: MT in MO
13-Nov-17
Never hunted Kansas, but I do have a standing invitation...Might bait, might not. I'd have to see what the conditions were and what the locals do. I would be inclined to not bait.

I do not want baiting made legal in Missouri.

Mostly because of the information posted by JTV with regard to CWD and other communicable diseases that baiting seems to amplify I am against baiting in general, but don't care if others do it where legal. On the other hand, baiters should be aware of the potential of disease transmission and know they could be contributing to the problem.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
Transportation of deer from deer farms to high fenced deer shooting preserves is a far greater risk to spread CWD than baiting.... there is a 2 gallon bait limit in Michigan.... The days of huge massive piles of bait are long gone.... And deer are going to have nose to nose contact regardless if they gather around a bait site.... they are social animals...... I can guarantee you that in my area you will be lucky to see 2 or 3 deer coming into my bait site....

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
DConcrete,

Do you think hunting regulations are necessary at all? Or should we be able to hunt where, when, and how we want without government's involvement?

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
The potential disease factor is an argument used by guys like Jeff that despise baiting.... You don't hear most of those guys calling for the outlawing of high fence deer and hog preserves..... They are the biggest CWD threat.... and hogs are escaping these shooting pens and becoming an invasive species in Michigan.... You don't hear guys like that calling for the outlawing of deer scents...... Which are coming from potentially CWD infected pens and being dumped straight into the woods.......

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
Again, my questions were specific to baiting Kansas deer, not Michigan, not hogs, not high fences (which I despise as well, but that's for another thread), not hunting aids or crutches, not rank rutty meat, etc..etc..

I've got 3 decades of experience hunting in Kansas. I have hunting relatives on both ends of the state. Most of them agree that baiting should not be legal. Seeing the bait piles in Pat's pics motivated me to ask for other opinions.

Matt

From: JTV
13-Nov-17
BB, I guess you never seen the fight we gave here against the High Fence/Canned operations in this state.... then last year, there was a TB outbreak and counties were quarantined with some very strong county wide regulations in these area's... the threat of disease is real .... and who are "the guys like that" ?? .... btw, I dont use "scents" havnt in over 10 years, and Ive killed more and bigger Bucks since I stopped using them ....

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
Answer to the question... Yes... and...... Yes..... I'd gladly go there and sit one of those very same stands with corn on the ground......

From: bad karma
13-Nov-17
This is America. We're not supposed to have other folks decide what we "need."

From: DConcrete
13-Nov-17
Yes Matt, I do believe in game laws. However, what l don’t agree with is the logic that because you don’t like it, others can’t and shouldn’t be allowed to do it. I don’t like long shots. So I? don’t take them. Do I want a law that says you can’t? Nope.

There are much larger fish to dry than this one.

Your state is a prime Example of what not knowing what you’re for Or against does. Bear baiting in Colorado.

Don’t like it, don’t do it.

From: JTV
13-Nov-17
BK, so the various states DNR's/F&W departments/biologists can not decide on bag limits, shooting hours, season dates, legal weapons, etc .... ???

From: bad karma
13-Nov-17
Please don't try this reductio ad absurdum crap.

The comment was that people don't "need" to bait. The government has to manage a resource, which would require certain restrictions. But what people "need" in the eyes of some bureaucrat is the last thing I want them deciding.

From: Trax
13-Nov-17
Have you seen what Chronic Wasting Disease or Epizootic hemorrhagic disease can do to deer? There are other diseases too that are most at risk when you congregate large numbers of animals even where there isn't threat of insect or other causes of infection. I don't like it because it is not natural, but I wouldn't want it banned anywhere for that reason. If health of the herd is ever at issue then I would want it banned because it then goes from opinion to science. The question is, would the deer herd be healthier overall if there was no baiting or feeding? In certain areas absolutely, but overall?

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
"Yes Matt, I do believe in game laws."

Good, I'm glad we agree on that.

"However, what l don’t agree with is the logic that because you don’t like it, others can’t and shouldn’t be allowed to do it."

Again, I'm glad we agree on that because I don't care if you enjoy baiting in Utah. I haven't hunted there, nor am I close to any people who do. If the people of your state agree with you, feed your wildlife out of your hand, if you want to. And I hope you enjoy hunting and killing them after that.

I think I've earned my right to have an opinion on KS deer hunting.

Matt

From: HA/KS
13-Nov-17
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction"

I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
Matt..... Baiting for deer is a highly emotional subject among deer hunters. It is very divisive too....... All hunters have a right to an opinion on baiting in their state..... but laws such as these shouldn't be made based on hunters opinion...... They should be based on science and the opinions of our state deer biologists..... That's what we pay them for..... Our State Deer Biologists decided it it safe to allow baiting with a limit of 2 gallons..... And in counties where CWD has occurred.... baiting has been outlawed.......As far as hand feeding deer and killing them.... that's a bit of a stretch..... Like I said.... I've been baiting and hunting my property since 2009 and I've killed 2 deer and one bear.... I don't think I've dented the population too much or negatively affected my neighbors ..........

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
Again, BB, what you've killed or haven't on your property has no bearing on my opinions of what should be legal in KS. My first impressions are you may have picked the wrong spot to buy hunting property, but I can't say for sure.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
It's not a good deer hunting area for sure but there are deer and there are bears......

From: Gray Ghost
13-Nov-17
BB,

On my place, I could easily condition my deer to feed out of my hands, just like the turkeys. It would be a difficult case to charge me with a crime, too. The turkeys learned horses are slobs and leave a lot of food on the ground. The deer would learn to do the same thing, if I chose to throw a bit more feed out.

The result would be I could lure the largest buck in my neighborhood to my barn every year. Killing him would the equivalent to picking a tomato from my garden, but I have no interest in doing that. As an outfitter in a past period of my life, I've seen it first hand, both illegally in Colorado, and legally in Kansas.

Matt

From: mn_archer
13-Nov-17
Would I bait in Kansas? The honest answer is I don't know. never hunted deer there so I cant answer that with any degree of credibility. That said I know where I stand on others baiting. As long as it is legal I will support those who do it and wish to do it. Same as high fences in texas. As a northern Minnesota boy it is foreign to me to hunt behind a fence, but if its legal I will support your right to do so and who am I who to judge others by what my beliefs are?

michael

From: HA/KS
13-Nov-17
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction"

I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.

From: sleepyhunter
13-Nov-17
In South Tx where I hunt the damn hogs will eat up a big amount of feed you put out. I've had better luck hunting fence lines and trails. If it's legal to bait in Kansas have at it.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Nov-17
There are places like yours in Michigan too Matt.... and if they don't want to bait fine.... but I feel it's unfair of them to try to say it should be illegal for me to use a few gallons of corn......

From: K Cummings
13-Nov-17
In regard to the original question, I would say leave it up to the game departments to determine legal methods based on what their management goals are, and what they want/need to accomplish. Basing management decisions on polls or popular opinion is seldom smart and often counter productive.

As to whether or not I'd bait in Kansas if it was legal, it would be completely situational. If I felt the situation called for it and it was legal I'd have no problem doing it.

KPC

From: MK111
13-Nov-17
I don't bait but I do plant food plots to draw deer to my property. I see no reason to worry about someone else baiting.

From: Shuteye
13-Nov-17
Well actually I would not bait in KS. Too far for me to drive to fill the feeders.

13-Nov-17
It's not my thing. While I'm hunting, I don't want to see a pile of corn just like I don't want to see planted crops just like I don't want to hear a car driving by. They all take away from my experience.

That said, I try not to judge others because I usually can't do it without being a hypocrite. In all honesty, I wish there was no baiting of ungulates in this country at all. But I'll be damned if I'd ever vote to take away someone's right to do that if that's what they want to do - it's not my role in this world to tell another man that he can't do that.

And although not part of the original thread, yet touched on, I think that baiting bears and baiting ungulates are as different as apples and oranges and don't even belong in the same conversation.

From: Woods Walker
14-Nov-17
I wouldn't bait deer ANYWHERE. I prefer to hunt them.

From: K Cummings
14-Nov-17
In many ways, expecting to have a meaningful affect on disease transmission by banning bait is akin to expecting to have a meaningful affect on shootings by banning guns, or expecting to have a meaningful affect on the climate by banning fossil fuels.

The parallels, both in terms of scientific agendas and political agendas are striking, but that is probably a discussion for a different thread.

KPC

From: bigeasygator
14-Nov-17
A little late to the party, but I did want to weigh in on a point Matt made regarding "normal behavior" vs. "conditioned behavior." To me, pretty much all deer behavior is conditioned, be it coming to bait or coming to a natural food source. The distinction I think is where conditioned behavior is influenced by humans. That said, food plots, hinge cutting, etc are all human activities that seek to alter the land in a way that conditions deer behavior. Should those activities be illegal too?

I have hunted over bait at times and I think there's a fallacy that a bait station or a pile of corn is like ringing a bell for Pavlov's dogs. The handful of times I've hunted over bait I've never killed a deer. I think that even with an easy, readily available food source deer mostly treat it like they would any other food source and there's no guarantee that you're going to get one to show up.

Personally, I have no problem with baiting if it's legal. I also think these are the types of conversations that give ammunition to the antis and they're able to latch onto these issues to slowly dial back our hunting rights.

From: Woods Walker
14-Nov-17
When you can make hinge cuts, food plots, etc. 100% portable to suit your whim then maybe that'll be a valid comparison.

On one of the places I hunt there are several white oak "magnet" trees that in certain years draw deer like a....magnet.....for an extremely limited amount of time. They may be great one year and empty the next. It takes a bit of field time and woodscraft to detect and find them ahead of time and to see if it'll be a good year for them. To compare that to filling a portable bait feeder wherever and whenever you want it is a non-comparison.

From: Gray Ghost
14-Nov-17
My largest issue with baiting isn't the disease issue, although that is a consideration.

I think baiting deer degrades the concept of fair chase. It basically turns deer into predictable livestock, especially in areas with good populations. The progression from baiting seems to be timed feeders. I'm sure most of us have seen deer run to feeders as soon as they hear the motor running, no different than how my horses come running to rattling a feed bucket.

Then, of course, comes the high fences, genetically altered herds, and ridiculously expensive "trophy fees" for the opportunity to kill a deer like selecting a new car at the dealership. Texas has served as the modern prototype for this digression.

I feel Kansas is headed in that direction, and I think that's a shame for the average Joe hunter. Their DNR appears to be all in on the commercialization of the sport. It now costs a non-resident almost $600 just for a deer tag and a hunting license. Most of the best private hunting grounds have been leased up by outfitters, and public ground is limited and mostly worthless for hunting.

Anyway, I don't mean to offend the baiters out there. It that's what you need to do to see deer, and it's legal in your area, bait away. I will continue to support regualtions that eliminates the practice in Kansas.

Matt

From: tonyo6302
14-Nov-17
" I will continue to support regualtions that eliminates the practice in Kansas. "

. .

. .

"A house divided . . . . "

- Abraham Lincoln

Someday, maybe there will be fellows that will support regulations that eliminate your favorite way of hunting.

From: JTV
14-Nov-17
KPC, knows it all when it comes to disease transmission in ungulates, esp. in regards to baiting ? He knows more than the Biologists ? ... hell, he's a know it all in politics, might as well be full of crap on with biology and deer management too ....

this is something I wholeheartedly agree with GG on .... one of those birds just fell of its perch ;0)

From: bad karma
14-Nov-17
Funny, when I used corn, or oat patches in South Texas, you didn't see big bucks in the fields. You would see does. Even here in Colorado, where a farmer has winter wheat, it's only the cows if any elk come in....the bulls just aren't there.

The idea that a food plot or a feeder puts animals in a trance is just not what I saw.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
JTV...... Jeff..... Why can't you carry on any discussion without the need to talk down to people and try to belittle them ??

From: Gray Ghost
14-Nov-17

Gray Ghost's embedded Photo
Gray Ghost's embedded Photo
"Even here in Colorado, where a farmer has winter wheat, it's only the cows if any elk come in....the bulls just aren't there."

Kevin,

I guess everyone has their own anecdotal evidence. Above is a pic I took 3 days ago of the only alfalfa field within 5 square miles of my house. Of course, it's all private, and it's leased to an outfitter. They kill all the mature bulls every year, but if you zoom in on the pic, you can see there are still a good number of bulls in the herd.

Trance indeed.

Matt

From: JTV
14-Nov-17
BB, why dont you screw off ... he always thinks he's above the rest, he isnt, neither am I, neither are you ... HE is always the ine looking down on folks, with his holier than thou attitudes ... you aint much better .... there are biological reasons not to bait, disease being the foremost, then there are social factors that play into baiting also... just because a state allows it, dosnt mean it is correct to do so.... pressure from outside sources seems to overide the decision to allow such practices in some areas....... with out baiting (dump it and they will come) many would never be able to kill deer, now is that good or bad, that in itself can be argued for societies sake ....

From: bad karma
14-Nov-17
Good question. Why, Matt, do you find it necessary to prohibit a means of hunting you don't like? If others wish to use feeders, or hunt over an alfalfa field, I don't see that it is harming you, or any of your business. Even if you think it is a good idea, not every good idea should become law.

It's actually preferable, if you want to live in a free society, to not tell others what to do.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
The big answer to the great baiting debate has been the food plot...... Let's look at the food plot..... Guys with John Deer Tractors and thousands and thousands of dollars to spend on hunting have become farmers. Not to make money from farming... but to attract and hold deer..... and they plant kill plots so they can hunt over them. I can't afford all that farming for deer stuff... but I too put in a kill plot on my property.... It's less than a quarter of an acre and is a glorified garden to attract deer.... If a deer steps into it.... it is in bow range.... Anything you say about bait in regards to congregating deer,,, You can say about my plot.... And my plot is in my woods for one reason only.... and that is to help me kill deer....

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
OK.... So you say there are biological reasons not to bait.... But the deer biologists in Michigan,,, Kansas and Texas have deemed it safe to use bait for deer..... You are calling other people here names and know-it-alls........ while you are saying that our deer biologists are getting it wrong.....

From: JTV
14-Nov-17
But, are foodplots baiting ? (I say no)... it is being grown, not "dumped"/placed.... I look at our regulations, food plots are legal, even if deer congregate the area, their feeding is spread out ..... minerals, residual mineral residue in the ground, and food stuffs "dumped" are not and pull the deer/elk into smaller areas.....

14-Nov-17
IMO there is a time and place for baiting. If it isn't for you then so be it, but I'll do it when the situation IMO dictates.

I have hunted areas where if you didn't bait you would never see a deer because everyone one else is baiting. That said I have found that baiting is never a sure thing. My experience has been that the majority of the time the deer would stage about 75 yards back in the woods and wait until I left before they'd come in. The wind direction didn't matter. If it was blowing N they'd stage North or South vise versa. I don't ever recall a mature buck or doe coming into the bait while I was on stand. I have also used timed feeders and just dumped corn on the ground. The only time I have ever seen animals running to a feeder, after it went off, was on a game ranch in Florida.

I have also seen corn fields where you could set your watch to what time the deer would come out to eat. I planted cow peas behind my house this year. The deer tore them up, but only at night.

From: Pig Doc
14-Nov-17
Personally I would not hunt deer over bait. Bears yes. Ungulates no. If it's legal where you hunt and it fits your ethics, go for it. Don't even think of opening the can of worms that food plots are baiting. You guys pushing for more regulations will live to regret it.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
"There is no doubt that if food plots were being used in an area where CWD was present in wild populations, the risk of spreading the disease at that site would increase"............ Matt Dunfee........ Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance Coordinator..... Wildlife Management Institute,, Wash. D.C.

From: K Cummings
14-Nov-17
"KPC, knows it all when it comes to disease transmission in ungulates, esp. in regards to baiting ? He knows more than the Biologists ? ... hell, he's a know it all in politics, might as well be full of crap on with biology and deer management too .... "

Not at all. The difference between me and you is that I admit what I don't know. Not only do I not know more than the biologists, but most of the biologists will tell you they don't really know.

Unlike you, I don't have an agenda, therefore I am willing to look at all the opinions, not just the ones that support me and the way I want to hunt. There are a number of biologists that feel that prevalence rates of CWD increase in mature bucks, and because of their travel patterns the dissemination to other doe family groups is greater, yet folks like you I'm sure want to do everything possible to advance the age structure of that cohort.

Ironically, many of the same people that are quick to scream "what do the biologists and scientists say?" are the same people that when it comes to climate change are quick to scream "who cares what the scientists say, they are all bought and paid for!"

Pay close attention to the above video and what some prominent biologists say about the "politics" of CWD, whose doing the research and who is getting the funding.

One question I like to ask when it comes to comparable risk of CWD is quite simple. Virtually every biologist will tell you that the prions responsible for CWD can and do live in the soil indefinitely. Not only do they live there, they can be taken up by plants growing in that soil. Knowing that, where is there a greater risk of contamination, under an oak or fruit tree that has been producing for half a century or more, or a some hunter's pile of corn? Or how about a communal scrape where pretty much every deer in a given area has both pissed in and stuck their nose in year after year after year. Or how about natural mineral licks that have been used so often that the deer have left a hole in the earth that is 2-3' deep? Or how about agricultural fields and food plots that have been producing crops for decades and have had deer urinating, defecating and socializing in for all that time?

Nobody says that a bait site can't be where a deer spreads disease, but it is no more or no less risky than anything else a deer does on a daily basis.

Banning bait is "feel good legislation" at best, and agenda and money driven at worst, with virtually no demonstrable benefit to the resource. No different that banning guns and fossil fuels.

KPC

From: Whitey
14-Nov-17
Food plots, baiting, tree stands, etc. are all very good tools used in aiding wildlife management. They should not be banned but used in certain situations to aid in population control of various species. You can get into all the corner cases you want about the definitions but you are creating an unnatural advantage with the purpose of making it easier. That’s fine but call it what it is and it’s not fair chase hunting. If That hurts some people’s feelings it’s on them. I don’t know why it would. If I had a hog problem and feeding them to bring them in to remove the problem was the best solution I would do it in an instant. I would not call it hunting I would call it management. Hunting is an art.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
So..... What kind of hunting is fair chase hunting Whitey ???

From: Pig Doc
14-Nov-17
Trying to define fair chase to someone else is like trying to define beauty. It's in the eyes of the beholder. Outside the laws, no one has the right to impose their definition of fair chase on others.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
Another BINGO!!!

From: bigeasygator
14-Nov-17
"To compare that to filling a portable bait feeder wherever and whenever you want it is a non-comparison."

Disagree. Takes time to condition deer to feeders and they still visit them as inconsistently as they do an oak that's dropping acorns. Cause deer are there one day doesn't guarantee they'll be there the next.

From: Bowfreak
14-Nov-17
I have baited deer in KY and have no problem with those that want to bait. I have learned over time though that baiting deer is probably a net negative. In the past it was an extremely effective way to fill a few doe tags. Now....EVERYONE baits. So much so that deer habits are changed and they just travel and hit different bait piles. 10 years ago, a doe coming to a pile of corn would be cautious and then eventually tolerate baiting, now whenever a deer approaches bait in my area in KY they are always on Defcon 4 alert. They are so much easier to kill without bait than with.

I have shot deer off bait, bears off bait, hogs off bait and African game off bait. I still would prefer not to use it for deer and it wouldn't bother me if it wasn't legal in my state. I also am not beating a drum to make it illegal because I am not the type of person that likes to tell others how they should hunt. What makes me tick doesn't necessarily make you and I am ok with that, you should be too.

From: TD
14-Nov-17
Geez... it's a deer. You aren't curing cancer, painting the Mona Lisa or searching for a lifetime mate (which I'd guess most used every form of bait available...)

It's a deer. Meat on the hoof. Go hunt it. Kill it. Repeat as necessary or as allowed. Or not, whatever is preferred.

You can add whatever personal restrictions you like. I know some that add so many they basically are out for a nature walk with a walking stick that happens to have a string on it... I think they have an aversion to dead animals myself.... But any way you massage it, in the end it's still just a deer.

From: Lucas
14-Nov-17
I grew up hunting in Kansas, still hunt there about every year. For myself and my family we would never bait a deer. I agree with a lot of others on here I don't think that it is very ethical. To all who say that you should be allowed to do what you want as long as it's legal, I will say, the older I get, the more I believe hunting will ultimately be determined by ballot initiatives and nonhunters are generally against baiting. I think we continue the practice at our own risk.

From: Shuteye
14-Nov-17
The reason they allow baiting on the Eastern Shore of Maryland and Delaware is there are just too many deer. We can hunt from Sept 1 to January 31. The farmers get permits to kill deer well after the season. They destroy corn and soybean fields.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
Lucas..... So we should only do what is agreeable with non hunters ?? I started trapping a few years ago...... and my experience is that I don't even talk about trapping with non hunters...... it's not even worth arguing with them........ Should we give up trapping because non hunters are against it ??

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
What do you think non hunters think about killing an animal that you don't eat...... say a grizzly bear ?? Maybe we should do whatever looks best to non hunters........??

From: Whitey
14-Nov-17
Fair chase has been defined for a long time and it’s not like beauty because it is a action. Actions can be quantified and measured. Boone and Crockett Club defines fair chase in this way: Fair Chase: is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

However humans have an inmate ability to rationalize anything and most will given the opportunity.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
Whitey...... Can you enter a buck legally killed over bait into the Boone and Crockett record books ?????????

From: JTV2
14-Nov-17
B&C yes, P&Y I dont think so

From: JTV2
14-Nov-17

JTV2's embedded Photo
JTV2's embedded Photo
Where I am now.. aint life grand ..... just had a mature eagle fly in on me .... enjoy your debate .....

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
P&Y ....... Yes..... They recognize and accept deer legally harvested over bait.....

From: Whitey
14-Nov-17
Big bear. Rationalizers always look for a loophole. If you read BCs long essay on Fair Chase you will see a line easily missed. “it has never been the intention of the Club to limit the application of fair chase only to eligibility in its records book”

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
What ???? Loophole ?? So you are going to sit here and tell me that the Boone & Crockett Club are going to allow guys to enter bucks legally taken over bait into their record book... when they consider the practice as NOT fair chase ???? That is ridiculous..... P & Y..... same thing..... Longhunters society..... Same..... SCI ......... same ........ Commemorative Bucks of Michigan........ same.....

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
If that's the case Whitey..... explain to me why P&Y does NOT allow entry of deer taken with lighted sights on your bow ?? And why do they have a let off minimum on compound bows ??

From: Lucas
14-Nov-17
Two wolves and one sheep. Apearance matters...

From: Whitey
14-Nov-17
B.B. read it for yourself. They say high fence hunts are not fair chase but then turn around and claim it’s dependent of the size of the enclosure. BC is selling a product they will rationalize anything that allows them to have as many members as possible while still having the appearance of living up to their creed. It much like the discussion about cops. They swear to up hold the law but some have no intention of actually living up to that standard.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
So once again Whitey.... what do YOU consider fair chase deer hunting ??? What is acceptable to YOU ??? Stalking on the ground with a selfbow ??

From: Whitey
14-Nov-17
B.B. to make sure we are clear My view is the same as Aldo Leopold he said “A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability, and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise. “. It’s on page 262 in a Sand County Almanac. I am not arguing ethics I am arguing the distinction of what is an art vs game management. Bait, tree stands, dogs all play a vital role in game management.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
Oh my God you are like talking to a politician...... So pretty much any deer hunting I've ever done in my life is not fair chase hunting.... rather game management........ whatever you want to call it man....... By the way..... I saw a picture of Fred Bear deer hunting in Michigan over a carrot pile...... I'll try to find that picture

From: Whitey
14-Nov-17
B.B. the only way I have hunted in the past 30 years was on the ground with a selfbow. I could care less how others do it.

From: Gray Ghost
14-Nov-17
As far as I know, some states still haven't adopted regulations banning the use of drones for hunting. Kansas may be one of them, but I haven't researched it thoroughly.

So, for those who feel prohibiting baiting is stepping on your freedoms, do you feel the same way about prohibiting drones from being used for hunting?

Matt

From: TD
14-Nov-17
" I could care less how others do it." Certainly not how it came across. All you had to do do was say that in your first post and you'd have nailed it.

My understanding is Safari Club is the only org that takes high fence....... a good deal to that is the vast majority of African game is high fence. High fence actually SAVED hunting in much of Africa. And both B&C and P&Y take bears that were baited. What logical reason would they have to exclude LEGALLY baited deer? Deer are more "special"? Maybe not "get a grip".... but maybe a tighter grasp.....

It's flippin' deer hunting..... not a religion or religious experience...... good grief....

From: Sage Buffalo
14-Nov-17
You're an idiot Gray.

It's pretty much what you called Pat and anyone who has taken a deer by bait.

Calling an ethical way to hunt unethical and calling guys out is fighting words. It's not just your opinion. It's like calling someone's wife ugly. You aren't just making a statement but insulting someone.

So on this post - you are an idiot.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
I couldn't agree more TD

From: HA/KS
14-Nov-17
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction"

I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.

From: gflight
14-Nov-17
HA/KS,

Never going to get that answer.

As far as the trolling many took the bait and we have hit over 100 posts.

I think its time to talk about a crossbow from a drone over a bait pile in Wichita and if you are not talking about in the city limits don't post......lol

From: Gray Ghost
14-Nov-17
Sorry if you're insulted, Sage Buffalo, often times the truth hurts.

I asked 2 simple questions about hunting in KS, and explained my answers to those questions. If that's the same as calling your wife ugly, then again, the truth must hurt.

Now, do you have a logical argument to the baiting questions, other than "if it's legal, I don't care what you do?"

Matt

From: Whitey
14-Nov-17
TD I said that in the 4th post on this thread. In fact I have said it several times. WRT bear baiting. What is the reason people bait bear? It makes it easier to hunt them. Bear baiting and hounds were banned here years ago people still hunt them but it has made it much harder.

I agree with GG sometimes the truth hurts.

From: K Cummings
14-Nov-17
"Now, do you have a logical argument to the baiting questions, other than "if it's legal, I don't care what you do?""

What is more "logical" than allowing each hunter to hunt the way he wishes, within the parameters of the law?

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
Matt..... You didn't simply ask 2 questions...... You called out the owner of the website you are posting on.... saying that you decided that the hunt he was on in Kansas is unethical......

From: HA/KS
14-Nov-17
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction" I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.

From: LINK
14-Nov-17
The elk/alfalfa pic above has 4-5 raghorns in the pic. So killing monster bulls must be easy on alfalfa? No doubt if you’re into any deer, corn is easy. Targeting bigger deer it is probably a tad bit easier but not a cake walk. I’m guiding 4 deer hunters now in the Texas panhandle. They are hunting a ranch with a handful of 150” deer, many 140”s and a plethora of 130”s. With a combined 16 days hunting, plus I have 4 glassing from a spot i can see 3 corn piles, we’ve seen 1 deer over 130”, and several 120’s. That’s normal corn hunting. Maybe you can condition a few residential deer but on a larger scale, bull butter.

From: Whitey
14-Nov-17
As I read it GG said he and his cuz didn’t think it was ethical so they stopped. He never said others should stop. Just because it hurts people feelings doesn’t mean we cannot discuss it.

From: Gray Ghost
14-Nov-17
"What is more "logical" than allowing each hunter to hunt the way he wishes, within the parameters of the law?"

Yep, that's as logical as it gets, Kevin. It also ignores my 2nd question, which was "Should Kansas continue to allow baiting for deer?", in case you've forgotten.

Your answer to that was clearly that you don't have an opinion, and that it should be up to the KDWPT to decide. I respect that, but I also think the KDWPT represents the residents of Kansas, who do have a voice in wildlife policy.

Matt

From: bad karma
14-Nov-17
I hunted whitetail deer for about 15 years in Texas. And this time of year, I can go out and take a picture of a herd of elk on winter range in the middle of a bunch of sage. That proves nothing except that a hell of a lot of deer went down to a private ranch. But you knew that. Frankly, you're arguing just to argue, I guess because the trolls are all doing work release or something.

From: K Cummings
14-Nov-17
"Your answer to that was clearly that you don't have an opinion, and that it should be up to the KDWPT to decide. I respect that, but I also think the KDWPT represents the residents of Kansas, who do have a voice in wildlife policy."

I'm sorry Matt, but that's simply false. I DO have an opinion and that opinion was very clear:

"leave it up to the game departments to determine legal methods based on what their management goals are, and what they want/need to accomplish. Basing management decisions on polls or popular opinion is seldom smart and often counter productive."

It is my understanding that part of the Kansas' constitutional "right to hunt" is that "regulations will always be based on sound science." Michigan is the same way. I specifically do NOT want hunting regulations left up to popular opinion (even that of hunters) because popular opinion is often based on personal preference and not sound science.

Let the game departments base their regulations on sound science and let hunters do what they prefer within those parameters. Just because something is legal doesn't make it mandatory.

KPC

From: sitO
14-Nov-17
The KDWP has eliminated baiting on all state and state leased lands(WIHA), for sound reasons. Read the regs and you'll be able to speak intelligently to this.

It's not hunting, has nothing to do with it, and everyone here knows that. Hopefully they'll take action to eliminate baiting statewide soon.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
Another guy posting on the Bowsite who's saying that what the owner of the Bowsite is doing is not hunting..... "Everyone here knows that"...... Speak for yourself man.....

From: sitO
14-Nov-17
I am speaking for myself, it's my opinion that you and all others know this.

Some may, however, refuse to accept it.

From: BIG BEAR
14-Nov-17
I don't know it and I don't agree with it...... Like I said.... I've been baiting for deer on my property since 2009 and have killed a total of 2 deer in that time. That's plenty challenging enough for me and it is fair chase. Stop trying to tell me how I think.

From: sitO
14-Nov-17
Ok, I'll stop, hope the season gets better for ya bud!

From: itshot
14-Nov-17
everyone's an activist, yay... yawn

From: Fulldraw1972
14-Nov-17
Matt, I didn’t read all the posts but to answer your questions. This year is my first year hunting Kansas. I shot my buck tonight and no I haven’t been using corn (bait). Honestly I don’t know if I would have used bait or not. For me it’s the thrill of figuring out there travel patterns. I also like to use calls when hunting.

I don’t see a problem with the baiting issue. So no i don’t think it should be illegal.

The vast majority of where I hunt is in corn country. Including my hunt in Kansas this year. Is a corn pile really that big of an influence on deer?

From: Woods Walker
14-Nov-17
If there's nothing else nearby? You bet it is. My place is surrounded by woods but corn/bean fields are less than a 1/4 mile away. When it was still legal here I'd put a corn pile in my front yard so I could watch deer from my kitchen window. Once they knew it was there they came to it like cats to a saucer of milk.

From: slade
14-Nov-17
First the Closet Democrat tries to tell Pat how to run the site, now the Pontificater is now trying to tell Pat what is ethical hunting, what a small minded weasel.

From: bad karma
15-Nov-17
Yes, baiting is so unethical that you can't find anything to hunt in Kansas but does and forkhorns. What a load of crap.

From: Shuteye
15-Nov-17

Shuteye's embedded Photo
Shuteye's embedded Photo
Every year I shoot a deer in my garden real late in the season. I mean they eat my kale, and they also eat my wife's day lilies. She says shoot them all. Took this picture yesterday of a young deer.

From: tonyo6302
15-Nov-17
Shoot. I guess, according to sitO, that stand hunting near a pin oak that is dropping acorns is not hunting, and everyone knew it but me !

. .

. .

I learn something every day on Bowsite.

From: Gray Ghost
15-Nov-17
"It is my understanding that part of the Kansas' constitutional "right to hunt" is that "regulations will always be based on sound science.""

So, their "sound science" showed that baiting on public ground should be banned. I wonder why that same science doesn't apply to private ground? Could it be because that would reduce the revenues generated by outfitters who rely on baiting?

Also, since this is a science discussion for you, how would prohibiting bait hunting affect the deer herd in Kansas? It's not like the state has a deer population problem. If anything deer numbers are way down from years past, largely due to CWD and increased hunting pressure.

Matt

From: Shuteye
15-Nov-17
A couple times I went to Blackwater refuge in Maryland to bow-hunt hunt Sika deer. No baiting allowed and it is a huge area. I killed a stag the first time I went and I was only 100 yards from the parking lot. I field dressed the stag and it was full of corn. I went to the same place the following year and killed a female Sika from the exact same tree. Field dressed her and like the year before she was full of corn. To me they are much easier to hunt than white tail deer, but possibly I just got lucky. I saw another hunter and he told me you had to follow the trail and go way back to find the cute little deer. He didn't see any when he came out and I could see the parking lot from where I killed mine. Had to wear wader since when you are off the trail the water is up to your waist and higher in places.

From: K Cummings
15-Nov-17
"So, their "sound science" showed that baiting on public ground should be banned. I wonder why that same science doesn't apply to private ground? Could it be because that would reduce the revenues generated by outfitters who rely on baiting?

Also, since this is a science discussion for you, how would prohibiting bait hunting affect the deer herd in Kansas? It's not like the state has a deer population problem. If anything deer numbers are way down from years past, largely due to CWD and increased hunting pressure."

I don't have the answers to those questions Matt, nor do I have the desire to research it enough to get them. They will never have much of an affect on me me, even if I were to decide to hunt Kansas.

Having said that, I do know that in Michigan, while overall deer numbers might be substantially lower than previous years, many areas are still grossly overpopulated, and most of those areas are private. As a result, the MDNR targets their regulations in order to accomplish the goals that they deem necessary.

Deer will migrate to the best habitat. It is often the case here in MI that deer density on poor quality public land might be as low as 5-10 deer per square mile, and as high as 60-80 or more per square mile on quality private land. Not only can this be true within a specific county or DMU, but it can and often is true within a specific township. This gives the public land hunter the impression that all the deer have been slaughtered and the farmer screaming for increased block permits.

Now let me ask you a question. Let's assume that the KDWP is only concerned with loss of outfitter revenue as you have suggested. Do you honestly think that if they were as concerned as what some people here seem to be about increased disease transmission due to baiting, they would allow it to take place on the very lands that the outfitters make their living on? Do you really think that in an attempt to placate the outfitters in the short term, they would knowingly risk a massive CWD outbreak in the long term, therefore blowing up the entire industry?

Or "could it be," as many biologists believe, CWD is going to do what it is going to do, as it has done for decades if not centuries, and is going to be a part of the deer population at low levels indefinitely, and the public land baiting ban is nothing more than an attempt to keep all stakeholders happy (or equally unhappy, as is often the case) without putting undue risk or strain on the resource?

KPC

From: HA/KS
15-Nov-17
GG "I know of properties on the Colorado/Kansas border where it becomes a legal distinction" I would be curious to know what county these properties are located in.

From: Woods Walker
15-Nov-17
tony: Your point would be valid if you could continually restock that oak tree with an unlimited amount of acorns and move the tree to where you wanted it at your whim.

From: sitO
15-Nov-17

sitO's Link
Here's what the KDWP "believes":

"There is currently no known treatment or eradication method for CWD, so preventing the introduction of the disease into new areas is of utmost importance to the health of local deer herds. Baiting and feeding deer tend to concentrate deer at small point on the landscape, often with the trails leading to the feeding sites resembling the wheel spokes of a bicycle. Anytime animals are concentrated at this type of "hub," the likelihood of disease transmission increases in a deer herd. More alarming, the transferring of CWD prions to healthy deer is not the only concern. Diseases such as bovine tuberculosis, foot rot, and fungal infections; and a host of detrimental parasites, including exotic lice, flukes, mange mites, lungworms, and barberpole worms are transmitted more efficiently when deer are concentrated in a small area, especially around feeding stations."

So, why take the chance? Because it's easy? Indeed it is easy, and it's only reward is that it's easy.

From: Shuteye
15-Nov-17
I have had seven dead deer on and near my property. I called the biologist to come look at a nice buck, dead in a pond. There is a midge, in real hot dry weather, that bites deer on the nose when they come to water. This causes and infection that causes hemorrhaging really bad and the deer normally dies in 1 to five days. The biologist told me there is no cure and the first frost will kill the midges. It happens every few years and only when we have hot dry weather. Quite often the deer will be found dead in the water or just a few yards away. I have killed infected deer with a 22 pistol. When you see a perfectly healthy looking deer, that can't get up, and bleeding from the nose, it is heart breaking.

From: BIG BEAR
15-Nov-17
sitO....... so why take the chance with food plots ??? Did you read the quote from Matt Dunfee that I posted ?? He said food plots increase the risk of spreading CWD.......

From: K Cummings
15-Nov-17
"The KDWP has eliminated baiting on all state and state leased lands(WIHA), for sound reasons. Read the regs and you'll be able to speak intelligently to this."

What percentage of KS land is WIHA? Less than 5%? Less than 10%?

What "sound reasons" would there be to ban baiting on less than 10 percent of the land and leave 90+ percent of all land open to baiting?

Sounds to me like they are just trying to avoid a whole bunch of territorial squabbles between a large number of hunters on a small amount of turf.

KPC

From: sitO
15-Nov-17
KPC, did ya even look at the link?

Your words "Let the game departments base their regulations on sound science..." Which is exactly what they've done on ground they control.

From: BIG BEAR
15-Nov-17
They control regulations on private ground too..... You didn't answer my question..... Why take the chance with food plots ???

From: Owl
15-Nov-17
To answer the question in the OP: Are we hunting deer or sacred cows? I have no problem with the practice, though, my lone time hunting deer over a feeder was nerve racking as heck. It took me almost 1/2 hour to get drawn on a doe deer who ultimately, actually, "jumped" (not ducked) my arrow.

I think it's akin to trying to catch my horses while they feed in my pasture (almost impossible to do), versus catching them when they come to the barn twice a day for their oats. - Well, this analogy does not take into account the effective range of archery equipment. Many a food plot is designed to bring animals in effective range the minute they step foot in the plot. So, for the comparison to work, you'd have to have a reach of 120' give or take.

From: K Cummings
15-Nov-17
Of course I read the link. That's why I posted what I did. I'm more interested in what is done than what is said.

They control regulations on ALL the land, yet the only restrict baiting on much less than 10% of it, much of which is much better bird habitat than deer habitat...by their own admission.

A little math (and common sense) goes a long way. At the end of the day, if they allow baiting on 90+ percent of the land, it's not hard to figure out just how concerned they are about the relative risk.

Now, did you watch the video I posted? Are all those biologists wrong?

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
15-Nov-17
If CWD shows up in a county and the DNR closes down baiting in that county I think that's sufficient..... But they should also outlaw the use of deer scents and high fence hunting operations in those effected areas.....As well as kill plots..... Why take the chance..... Right sitO ???

15-Nov-17
Matt, Have not been on the CF in a long time. Came to look at this thread as BGH was talking about baiting and other hunting related stuff with me and mentioned this thread.

My answer for both is "no". But, I do not have to bait given the area I hunt and the opportunities I am fortunate to have. Like others said, I do not want government controlling us any more than necessary, regulations here are not necessary IMO.

If I did not have access to good property including a well managed farm (please see picture posted today of great buck, on my habitat thread) and only had the three acres we live on to hunt, I would bait. A lot of folks are not as fortunate as you, or even me. So I am OK with it where legal. Thanks.

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