Carbon Express Arrows
Individual mandate in trouble as house..
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Contributors to this thread:
Spike Bull 16-Nov-17
Spike Bull 16-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 16-Nov-17
Shuteye 16-Nov-17
Atheist 16-Nov-17
Atheist 16-Nov-17
Mike in CT 16-Nov-17
Solo 16-Nov-17
HDE 16-Nov-17
bad karma 16-Nov-17
Bentstick81 16-Nov-17
HDE 16-Nov-17
Ryan from Boone 16-Nov-17
Shuteye 16-Nov-17
JTV 16-Nov-17
HDE 16-Nov-17
Woods Walker 16-Nov-17
HDE 16-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 16-Nov-17
Woods Walker 16-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 16-Nov-17
Nick Muche 17-Nov-17
Woods Walker 17-Nov-17
Bownarrow 17-Nov-17
Atheist 17-Nov-17
Rhody 17-Nov-17
Atheist 17-Nov-17
Bentstick81 17-Nov-17
Mike in CT 17-Nov-17
HDE 17-Nov-17
Atheist 17-Nov-17
Bob H in NH 17-Nov-17
Bownarrow 17-Nov-17
Glunt@work 17-Nov-17
Atheist 17-Nov-17
HDE 17-Nov-17
gflight 17-Nov-17
BowSniper 17-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 17-Nov-17
Beendare 17-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 17-Nov-17
MT in MO 17-Nov-17
HDE 17-Nov-17
Trax 17-Nov-17
Atheist 17-Nov-17
Bentstick81 17-Nov-17
BowSniper 17-Nov-17
Woods Walker 17-Nov-17
Bentstick81 17-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 17-Nov-17
HDE 17-Nov-17
kentuckbowhnter 17-Nov-17
HDE 17-Nov-17
Whitey 17-Nov-17
HA/KS 17-Nov-17
ben h 18-Nov-17
Ryan from Boone 18-Nov-17
Anony Mouse 18-Nov-17
Spike Bull 18-Nov-17
Mike the Carpenter 18-Nov-17
Bowbender 18-Nov-17
Woods Walker 18-Nov-17
K Cummings 18-Nov-17
Woods Walker 18-Nov-17
K Cummings 18-Nov-17
ben h 18-Nov-17
K Cummings 18-Nov-17
IdyllwildArcher 18-Nov-17
Mike in CT 18-Nov-17
HA/KS 18-Nov-17
HDE 18-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 18-Nov-17
HDE 18-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 18-Nov-17
HA/KS 18-Nov-17
Woods Walker 18-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 18-Nov-17
HDE 18-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 18-Nov-17
ben h 18-Nov-17
HA/KS 18-Nov-17
Ned 18-Nov-17
Woods Walker 18-Nov-17
Mike in CT 19-Nov-17
Bowbender 19-Nov-17
zeke 19-Nov-17
K Cummings 19-Nov-17
Woods Walker 19-Nov-17
K Cummings 19-Nov-17
K Cummings 19-Nov-17
Mike in CT 19-Nov-17
bad karma 19-Nov-17
K Cummings 19-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 19-Nov-17
Woods Walker 19-Nov-17
bad karma 19-Nov-17
Bentstick81 23-Nov-17
JTV 23-Nov-17
Woods Walker 23-Nov-17
bad karma 23-Nov-17
petedrummond 23-Nov-17
Trax 23-Nov-17
HDE 23-Nov-17
Woods Walker 23-Nov-17
Annony Mouse 23-Nov-17
HDE 23-Nov-17
petedrummond 23-Nov-17
Mike in CT 24-Nov-17
JTV 24-Nov-17
16-Nov-17

Spike Bull 's Link
...passes tax bill. Tom Cotton's good move.

16-Nov-17

Spike Bull 's Link
See what the Senate does.......

From: NvaGvUp
16-Nov-17
Good news indeed,

Cotton is one smart cookie and it was known he was going to pull off something like this at some point.

From: Shuteye
16-Nov-17
I wish they had just gone with a flat tax. Tom Cotton did a good job it looks like. However, the liberals are pooping in their pants, zillions will lose health care.

From: Atheist
16-Nov-17
And you seem pleased that zillions will lose healthcare. What’s that say about you? Shame

From: Atheist
16-Nov-17
Under the House Republican tax plan, a company that moves its factory to China to find cheaper workers can deduct the cost of moving.

A worker that moves her family to Ohio to find a better job cannot.

A firefighter or teacher that purchases items for their workplaces (supplies, etc) can no longer deduct those expenses. A corporation loses no deductions. The middle class gets crushed on this tax plan. The chart is clear as day.

From: Mike in CT
16-Nov-17
Lex,

You really need to start writing in a "paint-by-numbers" fashion; that way even some of the lesser lights in liberal-land may be able to follow along......maybe.......

From: Solo
16-Nov-17
Leftist women & children are already dying in our streets by the Blazillions. Just take a stroll thru any major urban area and you can smell them......Trust me... :^)

From: HDE
16-Nov-17
Zillions will only lose healthcare if they choose...

From: bad karma
16-Nov-17
The "zillions" can still get health care, if they wish. Nobody is stopping them from doing so, it's just that the government won't penalize them for not doing so.

But since liberals want everything they like to be mandatory, that's galling to them.

From: Bentstick81
16-Nov-17
Thanks atheist for proving, on another thread, your stupidity. Hey, what can you complain about? You are doing all the work. See atheist, you come on here, with only one thing in mind, stir the $hit, and it's all bull$hit, when you have no truth in anything you post. PRICELESS!!!! 8^)

From: HDE
16-Nov-17
That and the rest of us aren't taking up the slack for them to get insurance cheaply through subsidies...

16-Nov-17
healthcare aside, if you make less thank 75k a year, expect less in your paycheck. Every account of this tax bill consistently shows a break for those over 75k and for those below 20k. Middle class gets another gut shot.

From: Shuteye
16-Nov-17
The liberals know that no one will lose health care. They just won't have to pay a fine if they choose not to sign up. That is the way is should be, the government has no business fining some one for not buying something.

From: JTV
16-Nov-17
The Senate .... pffft ... the Senate is full of themselves, I'm sick of 'em... they couldnt find their ass from a hole in the ground .... just watch, they'll screw this tax plan up also ...

From: HDE
16-Nov-17
Flat tax of something like 15% would do. Better yet, just make a 10% sales tax and be done with it.

From: Woods Walker
16-Nov-17
If they really want to jump start the economy they'd eliminate ALL business taxes, as it's NOT the business that pays them anyway...it's the end CONSUMER of whatever good or service they provide. Taxes are an EXPENSE and are figured in as a cost of doing business, no different than advertising, insurance, wages, phone bills, fuel, rent, etc.

Whenever you increase a cost on business it just makes the cost of their product increase to the consumer.

I's always made me laugh when they say that the worker pays 7.65% of his gross pay for SS/Medicare, and the employer matches it with another 7.61%. That's bullsh*t. That 7.65% just get's added to overhead and the buyer pays for it!

From: HDE
16-Nov-17
"Whenever you increase a cost on business it just makes the cost of their product increase to the consumer."

So true. So very true.

From: NvaGvUp
16-Nov-17
It's not 7.61%.

It's 7.65% and as noted, this added cost for the employer simply means that the employee gets paid 7.65% less.

From: Woods Walker
16-Nov-17
OOPS! I of all people should know that!!! I guess I got numb to it after having to do the bookkeeping for it all these years! My bad! Corrected......Thanks Kyle....

From: NvaGvUp
16-Nov-17
Note to Sybil:

It is NOT the job of your fellow citizens to pay for your healthcare, nor for anyone else's healthcare!

From: Nick Muche
17-Nov-17
"if you make less thank 75k a year, expect less in your paycheck."

Could you explain this a bit more, please?

From: Woods Walker
17-Nov-17
But....but.....it's a RIGHT! (Or at least it's one when you can make anything a "right" by simply pulling it from your a&& and wishing it so......it's the Democrat way, along with lying....)

From: Bownarrow
17-Nov-17
1. I don't like the idea of the government forcing individuals to buy anything-BUT... 2. I don't want to pay for uninsured people going to the emergency room and getting treatment, declaring bankruptcy, and having that cost added to my fees by the hospital when my family gets treatment, to cover the cost of the uninsured. Currently most (all?) states require their emergency rooms to provide treatment for people, even if they don't have insurance. Many of those people don't pay their bills and that cost is added to people like you and I who have insurance.

For you guys that hate the individual mandate, how would you address this problem (insured paying for uninsured who get treatment at emergency rooms and ultimately don't pay their bill)? One theory behind the individual mandate lowering cost is that these people go in anyway, but they go to the emergency rooms. Insurance allows them to go to the clinic where the treatment is much less expensive. What's your theory on this?

From: Atheist
17-Nov-17
Excellent points bownarrow. For the thousandth time: we pay car insurance for other claimants as they do for you. We pay home insurance for your neighbors. Why is health insurance different? Aren’t we our brothers keepers? Aren’t we all working for a better future for all humanity?

From: Rhody
17-Nov-17
Market place. It seams to me that the individual mandate is costing the taxpayer now more money than before.

The issue of hospital costs and illegals using emergency rooms as for any ailment and not paying, was driving regional clinics out of business. That has largely been addressed now and not an issue, otherwise,it would be front and center of daily headlines.

From: Atheist
17-Nov-17
Last night the Senate GOP quietly added tax breaks for private jets to tax bill. But keep thinking this about the middle class. And new figures show it’ll add a little more than a trillion to the debt. But keep thinking conservatives are all about reducing debt. Pathetic.

From: Bentstick81
17-Nov-17
Crying us a river this morning, atheist? FRAUD ALERT!!!

From: Mike in CT
17-Nov-17
Kelly,

No easy or pat answers; where I'd begin is moving away from anything-and-everything type policies to catastrophic and maintenance policies. Get employers out of the healthcare paradigm and add what they save to wages paid.

Catastrophic coverage should need no explanation; maintenance might to some but with over 30 years in the healthcare industry I can speak to the downstream costs of not maintaining one's health; the ROI on this would be substantial.

I agree that the strain on the emergent care setting needs to be addressed; it's at best a band-aid and at worst a recipe for improper care due the realities of understaffed ER's causing long, if not double-shifts; tired people make mistakes.

What I will say though is the current situation of "uncompensated care" charges is not the cost burden that the individual mandate has spawned; not even close. Of course, the PPACA was never designed to succeed, it was designed to fail to lead ultimately to the desired end-game of a single-payer system.

To those who would point to socialist nations with such as system and compare their healtchare "quality" to the US I would caution you to look beneath the hood, as it were at the metrics; if you want to see the best definition of "inherent bias" most of those comparisons fit that description to a "t".

On a personal note, thanks for being a dissenting voice with the integrity to own what you post; for that alone you'd have my respect. The fact that you offer substantive food for thought only adds to that respect.

From: HDE
17-Nov-17
Auto insurance is a law to protect, at a minimum, the guy you hit to replace his property, health, or life even - negligence on your part.

Home owners insurance is to protect the lien owners investment (property) and maybe your own if you have any equity in it.

YOU DO NOT COST SHARE WITH THOSE WHO DON'T HAVE IT!!!!

From: Atheist
17-Nov-17
Oh but you do cost share with those that don’t have it. If you don’t have insurance, it causes everyone else’s policies to increase. You’re being naive.

From: Bob H in NH
17-Nov-17
Insurance is built on the concept of cost sharing. Simple as that. NOBODY pays insurance equal to the cost if something bad happens. You pay a smaller amount HOPING you don't need the big repayment. Insurance companies count on the fact that most people don't need the big costs.

From: Bownarrow
17-Nov-17
Mike in Ct: Sorry for the delay, I got pulled unexpectadly into meetings (the nerve of making me work on a Friday!: ). Your explanation makes sense to me. There seems to be a lot of complexity and unintended consequences in healthcare and I don't pretend to understand it all. It would be great to get people to start taking ownership of their health; I think in some of those other countries you mention there is a direct correlation between health and better eating and exercise; and so the healthcare system is not directly responsible for their longevity but it's tied to other factors. Anyway, appreciate your expert opinion on it. Kind Regards, Kelly

From: Glunt@work
17-Nov-17
This is big government 101. It applies to a lot more than healthcare.

First you pass a law that has the government providing something to the citizens. That sets up the automatic argument that now that everyone is benefiting from that service, or bridge, or mass transit system, everyone needs to be forced to contribute to it.

Health care is complicated. The cost of major medical treatment is far beyond the ability to pay for the majority of people. We do it through insurance and taxes. The issue is which path is the best. Government supplied care has the benefit of everyone having access and the drawback of poor service, higher overall costs even if the individual may not see that directly, and less individual freedom. Like most government ran systems, the lack of competition means customer service isn't driven by and outside force. You get the long line and the grumpy lady at the DMV.

Private insurance usually means more direct costs to users, more exceptions and more individual responsibility. The benefit is better care, more freedom, more choice and competition between insurers which has a constant impact on prices and customer service.

If we go down the road of single payer its a big step toward giving up more freedom. Food and housing are essential to living more so than healthcare. Why shouldn't we have single payer for that as well?

From: Atheist
17-Nov-17
I disagree that single payer equals less freedom. Do Canadians have less freedom? What can’t they do that we can? Single payer now allows a working man to go try that new business venture. He no longer fears not having medical benefits for his family! It allows a woman to stay home to raise her baby and not worry about healthcare for herself or the baby. Single payer works in every single civilized nation. It’ll work here. And save tax payers money as well.

From: HDE
17-Nov-17
Insurance cost is based on large pools of people with a certain rate or chance of having to use it. What's the premium for a house in "tornado alley" as opposed to the desert southwest...? If I have a high replacement value and low deductible on my house, I will pay for it. If you have a low value on your house with a high deductible, you will pay for that. We ain't gonna avg the two and pay the same.

An employer's group plan has high premiums because they take you as you are and some may have to use it more often. Cost share? Sure, but only with those in the same boat as you.

I'll bet a dollar that the excess isn't passed along to those who don't have it or can't afford it.

From: gflight
17-Nov-17
"It allows a woman to stay home to raise her baby and not worry about healthcare for herself or the baby."

Yes I remember the gal at the bar in New Brunswick that had three kids by three fathers telling me how good it was. She draws a check, they fixed her for free at three and now she can just party all she wants. All we need here is to have more irresponsible kids on the street. We would have to implement "child control laws" on irresponsible breeders. We would really have a lot of Democrats then......

From: BowSniper
17-Nov-17
The Senate trying to shoehorn the health mandate tax into this big tax bill has me concerned. We KNOW the Republicans failed miserably trying to end Obamacare. That god-damn McCain. And if they try again to add it here and wind up failing to pass the tax bill, we KNOW the fix was in.

Me-thinks there are some establishment cronies in the Republican camp that seek to deny Trump any victory no matter what the price to American citizens and the country at large. Traitors.

From: NvaGvUp
17-Nov-17
Bob,

"Insurance companies count on the fact that most people don't need the big costs."

That's why they have actuaries - to determine the real dollar risk they have across their customer base so they can price for it accordingly.

No one is forced to buy insurance (except for the Obamacare requirement), so it's totally free choice. It is indeed a form of cost sharing........VOLUNTARY cost sharing.

We buy insurance to cover unexpected losses which would be more than we would want to pay for on our own. Likewise, we know that why we won't likely need to use the insurance, we recognize that others in our risk pool will need to use it, although we don't know the who, the when, the why, or the total amount of their losses. But we're OK with that because we also know there's a chance it might be US that suffers the fire, the accident or the illness.

From: Beendare
17-Nov-17
All i know is obama care raised the cost of health insurance.

It added layers of bureaucracy [more $$], more paperwork [my wifes a nurse, it doubled] and feathered the insurance companies bottom line- great plan eh Athiest? The HC for my employees has more than doubled since Obamacare.

Typical Dem/Rep politician plan....say you are doing it "For the People' really you are just catering to your big money donors and padding gov coffers. GAO said it before Ocare went into effect- its an addl $300 a person in added tax to the gov with Ocare.

They need a plan that CONTROLS THE SPIRALING COSTS...that would make it affordable for all of us.

From: NvaGvUp
17-Nov-17
Bruce,

What we NEED is to get government out of the healthcare business entirely and free the markets to do what they do best - compete for our business.

From: MT in MO
17-Nov-17
Health insurance is not health care...

From: HDE
17-Nov-17
"It is indeed a form of cost sharing........VOLUNTARY cost sharing."

Yes. This...

From: Trax
17-Nov-17
When socialism once again fails as it always does what do the blind dumb sheep liberals call for? More socialism! A one payer system that continues to grow the power of the stinking government and weaken the citizen. OBOZO is still laughing at how stupid his own followers are, how easily led. If the likes of that slimeball can lead idiots as far off the cliff as he already has why can't liberal leaders force fools a little farther? Right off the one payer cliff, the sheep can't stampede their fast enough.

From: Atheist
17-Nov-17
Then why haven’t the countries with single payer collapsed yet. Further, how is it they spend less money than the US, give better care and have better mortality rates? Even further, the citizens are the happiest on the planet. In the US, we fall behind those countries in every category EXCEPT what we spend on our military. So I guess our priorities are ; military first, citizens somewhere behind that.

From: Bentstick81
17-Nov-17
Sounds like to me, atheist, you need to move from the U.S. then. You are a labeled FRAUD. Can't hide now. 8^)))

From: BowSniper
17-Nov-17
"Better care" ?? When was the last time a sick king or global billionaire didn't race for the American Medical system when their life depended on it?? No such mad rush to Euro socialist medical centers. Like the famous Austin Powers' mocked British dentistry...

From: Woods Walker
17-Nov-17
Obamacare is a fraudulent, ILLEGAL scam that was created, sold and passed on LIES from Obama on down. The entire pile of bullsh*t needs to be repealed NOW.

From: Bentstick81
17-Nov-17
WW, exactly why FRAUD, atheist, backs it 100%. Matches him to a tee.

From: NvaGvUp
17-Nov-17
Sybil

They DON"T give better healthcare.

The people in those countries who want top quality medical care come to the USA to get treated.

Otherwise, they'll either need to wait months or years to get the care they need, OR, their government's bureaucrats will deny them the care they need in order to save money.

Then, even if they do get treated in their own countries, the quality of care they receive is ridiculously bad.

From: HDE
17-Nov-17
Death Panels, a phrase used during obama's dictatorship...

17-Nov-17
nothing will pass the republican controlled senate that does not save obamacare. enough republican senators have said they will not vote for a budget or tax reform bill that gets rid of obamacare.

From: HDE
17-Nov-17
^^^ and that is why they will lose the Senate in 2018. They had their chance...

From: Whitey
17-Nov-17
Most European countries are the size of our states. Most programs don’t scale to larger countries

From: HA/KS
17-Nov-17
An easy solution to the problem of people without insurance going to the ER is to not force hospitals to eat the costs of treating people w/o insurance.

Can't pay - no services. That is the way it is with food, housing, etc.

From: ben h
18-Nov-17
I hate Obama care and think it was a complete gift to insurance companies. That being said I still think we should adopt single payer like basically every other industrialized nation that pays 4-10x less than we do for health care. I always hear the argument that "ours is so much better". I'd love to see the metrics that support that ours is 4-10x better than other industrialized nations.

Also, every one of those nations have private insurance that you can buy if you want to for better, quicker care. You're not FORCED to use the public health care option if you don't want to in any of those countries. I'd personally love to get "crappier" care and a few thousand dollars tax increase and keep my insurance premiums.

18-Nov-17
Sensible thoughts ben. you're absolutely correct. And our healthcare system is laughable and enriches big pharma, insurance companies while skipping over the patients needs.

From: Anony Mouse
18-Nov-17
Recent article in Canadian news tells of greater than two year wait to see a neurologist. Many Canadians come to the US rather than wait months or years for treatment.

Friend from NZ has been fighting their government healthcare system for over six years to fix a problem with his shoulder made worse by original treatment. Even with government appointed advocates, he is still waiting.

Where will we go.... Cuba?

18-Nov-17
The reason our health care has problems is because of the laws written for the insurance, pharma, and medical industries. Government intervention, like preventing free enterprise by disallowing insurance sales across state lines, are specifically designed to protect and enrich those industries. Indeed, they may well have been written by those industries. Obamacare, and every other current government rule, is ostensibly designed to fix the problems created by those original legislative efforts.

What we really need is actual, real, free markets, they always eventually produce the best service/product at the lowest price.

Anything else is a shell game which will consistently get more and more expensive while progressively becoming less and less efficient.

18-Nov-17
If the tax cuts fail during the vote to pass them, then I would love to see President Trump sign an Executive Order MANDATING the elected officials will be immediately placed on Obamacare. I know, it’s all wishful thinking, just as I hoped John McCain would have gone through the VA for his head issues (then, and only the, the dialog to fix the problem would have started).

From: Bowbender
18-Nov-17
"Also, every one of those nations have private insurance that you can buy if you want to for better, quicker care. You're not FORCED to use the public health care option if you don't want to in any of those countries. I'd personally love to get "crappier" care and a few thousand dollars tax increase and keep my insurance premiums."

So you're willing to pay higher taxes AND higher premiums for the current level of "crappy" care? By all means ex-pat to a country that offers such a wonderful healthcare system.

From: Woods Walker
18-Nov-17
The government FUBAR's everything it touches....EVERYTHING. Only a complete, clueless moron would want it involved with healthcare. If you think that's offensive then I can only say if the shoe fits then wear it. That is unless the government is supplying the shoes, in which case they either won't be the right size, they'll come with 2 left feet only, they'll be on backorder for a decade, or they'll cost so much (if you're a legal American......illegals will get them "FREE" of course) you'll have to sell your home to afford it.

EVERYTHING associated with government and health care has been based on PURE lies. What rational person would believe anything that they say now???

From: K Cummings
18-Nov-17
There is certainly enough blame to go around, but in my opinion, blaming the insurance industry for the cost of insurance shows a level of ignorance about how the system works.

Insurance companies are private, for profit entities, just alike any other. Keep piling on regulations, demands, services etc., and they will simply let those costs flow down hill.

The insurance business model, which is based on comparative risk, was never intended to cover everyone, at every age, with every condition, for everything, all at the same price. Add to that a hospital/legal/welfare system that heaps an ever increasing level of costs onto the insurance system, and you have the recipe for exponentially higher premiums. At the end of the day, the "insurance company" does not pay these costs, they pass it down to every single one of their policy holders...as they should.

It's not any different than who actually pays for a higher minimum wage, or the next government program. Dollars cannot be created out of thin air. They can only be collected and dispersed.

KPC

From: Woods Walker
18-Nov-17
The problem is that the vast majority of politicians who make these ridiculous laws have never held a real job where they actually have to PRODUCE a good/service based on demand and market forces/factors. They literally have NO concept of money shy of being able to just create/take it from those who have any at all when they need it for their half assed schemes which NEVER work as sold and were most likely never intended to.

When us regular slobs realize that our expenses are exceeding our incomes what to we do? We either increase our income (if we can) by getting another job/learning a skill/selling something to cover expenses or we simply DO WITHOUT SOMETHING ELSE to be able to meet expenses. Government will NEVER do this, they just take more, and more, and more...........

Health care is a prime example of this.

From: K Cummings
18-Nov-17

K Cummings's embedded Photo
K Cummings's embedded Photo
You make some valid points WW. What makes it even more slimy and sleazy is that the politicians that make all these demands on private corporations are the first to blame them for having to raise premiums to cover the crap they dreamed up and demanded.

It's the same politicians and attorneys that created a system where it takes a decade or more, and hundreds of millions (if not billions) of dollars to bring a new drug to market, that scream bloody murder when a drug company has to make all that money back, plus a profit, all within a short time period before it falls off patent and goes generic.

Is there gouging going on? Sure there is. But there is gouging going on everywhere. Just this morning I took my daughter to the body shop to get an estimate on her car. Some jackass was nice enough to hit her car in a parking lot and drive off. Just the plastic Toyota emblem that goes on the front of the grill costs $490.75. No, that's not a typo. Just shy of 500.00 for a plastic emblem that probably costs less than 5 bucks to make.

Now, is there any wonder why car insurance is so expensive? It's real frickin' easy to blame it on the dirty rotten money grubbing insurance companies, but where does the fault really lie? Why isn't anyone trying to pass laws that limit what the car company can charge for parts? Where is the outrage? Where are the congressional hearings?

Think about this. The 6 month premium for full coverage on my daughters car is 601.33. Take out the insurance companies costs, the agent's commission, etc. and they lost there a$$es just paying for one plastic emblem. That doesn't include the grill, the bumper and the hood that also needed repaired/replaced...because of a simple parking lot mishap.

So yes, people are welcome to blame the insurance company "boogey man" if they want, but they are clueless to the real problem.

KPC

From: ben h
18-Nov-17
Bowbender, apparently my point was not made in my earlier post. Would you rather pay $2,000 per year out of your left pocket or $10,000 per year out of your right pocket for health care? The left pocket option will not be as good as the right pocket option, but statistically you'll live about the same or longer. Which option would you choose? Personally my bank statements don't show which pocket the money comes out of, so I want the lesser of the two.

From: K Cummings
18-Nov-17
ben h:

If was truly a matter of your 2 or 10 example, that would be one thing. However, your numbers would not come anywhere close to adding up actuarially.

Insurance companies can't run trillion dollar deficits like governments can...and do.

KPC

18-Nov-17
I'm not too happy with the tax plan. Why give Corporations a big tax cut and not the middle class? I think the mandate thing was just a carrot to get all the conservatives on board who would prefer to have cut taxes across the board.

From: Mike in CT
18-Nov-17

Mike in CT's Link
When you base comparative measurements on a biased yardstick the results shouldn't surprise anyone; reality on the other hand, is a different story.

From: HA/KS
18-Nov-17
From Mouse's (Oops, Mike's link) link. "In fact, a somewhat less cited bit of information from the WHO is that even the WHO itself ranks the United States as no. 1 in the world in the areas of responsiveness to patients’ needs in choice of provider, dignity, autonomy, confidentiality, and the very important area of timely care."

From: HDE
18-Nov-17
The $10k option keeps you from filing bankruptcy in case of a major medical event, hence the "insurance" thing...

From: NvaGvUp
18-Nov-17
ben h,

"That being said I still think we should adopt single payer like basically every other industrialized nation that pays 4-10x less than we do for health care. I always hear the argument that "ours is so much better". I'd love to see the metrics that support that ours is 4-10x better than other industrialized nations."

BZZZZT!

WRONG!

There's a reason people from all over the world come to the US to get treatment:

1. It's better care, in part because your choices are unlimited. Other countries, Canada, for one, limit your choices, and/or makes you wait forever to get an appointment, etc.

I have an outfitter friend from Whitehorse who has a flying business when he's not outfitting.

A number of years ago his doctor thought he had a torn rotator cuff.

He had to go to Vancouver to get an MRI, it took him NINE MONTHS to get the appointment and he had to fly himself to VANCOUVER because the appointment was in January and to drive that far in snow and ice would have been crazy. Have you any idea how far it is from Whitehorse to VANCOUVER?????????

1,490 MILES, that's how far! Each way!

When he got the MRI, they told him, "Yep, you have a torn rotator cuff and will need surgery." The soonest he could get an appointment to get that done was another nine months out. So he made an appointment in Seattle and had the surgery within two weeks!

I needed an MRI on a knee a few years ago. It was all of two DAYS before I got the MRI done and the surgery followed less than a month later. I could have had the surgery sooner than that, but I delayed it due to Christmas, New Years, The Sheep Show, and the rest of my schedule.

BTW, his treatment in Canada was 'free', but Canadians pay over $5 /gallon for gasoline to cover their 'free' healthcare!

2. "I'd personally love to get "crappier" care and a few thousand dollars tax increase and keep my insurance premiums."

That has got to be the most economically illiterate post I've ever seen on the CF, and that's saying something, given stuff the lefties here often say.

From: HDE
18-Nov-17
Also, the tax plan touts a savings of $1200 per household. Big whoop. Multiply it by 12, then come talk to me...

From: NvaGvUp
18-Nov-17
BTW,

Not long ago, some idiot liberal (sorry for the redundancy) in the CA legislature proposed CA implement a single payer system.

That idea blew up when the state ran the numbers and determined a single payer healthcare system in CA would cost more than the ENTIRE STATE BUDGET!

From: HA/KS
18-Nov-17
HDE most people pay less in federal income tax than they think. Can't get a tax cut bigger than your tax bill. The real cost to the US economy is regulations and other interference in the free market.

From: Woods Walker
18-Nov-17
Idyll: Giving corporations a big tax cut IS giving the middle class a tax cut! Corporations just pass what they have to pay in taxes on to the consumer who in reality is the one who actually pays it in the form of increased costs for the good/service. And we consumers CANNOT "pass it on"....there's no one behind us!

There should be ZERO corporate taxes.

From: NvaGvUp
18-Nov-17
Econ 101:

If corporations see their tax rates reduced from 35% to 20%, everyone benefits.

Employers will employ more people. The YUGE percentage of those new jobs will go to the middle class.

People who have IRAs and 401(k)s invested in the markets will see their retirement accounts grow, as well as will those investors with non-qualified investments.

From: HDE
18-Nov-17
HA/KS - yes, I know. Hence the reason most people get a refund when they file.

But for a legislator to say it's a benefit to get an additional $100 per month (after taxes of course), prove it by making it bigger by taking way less to start.

From: NvaGvUp
18-Nov-17
They will be taking away less.

From: ben h
18-Nov-17
Kyle, You sort of in a round about way, bolstered my point. Those in countries with socialized medicine can use it if they want to and if they find aspects of it unsatisfactory they can do whatever they want, including coming to the US if they choose. I don't dispute we have very accessible and qualified health care in the US, but it's indisputable that we pay more than any country in the world by far for it and I've never seen any metrics that I'd say justify the cost differential. Quick access is definitely worth something though and that will cost more money.

From: HA/KS
18-Nov-17
We are often told how expensive medicine is in the US compared to what it costs in other places. Compare prices of many other products and you may find the same to be true. Some things cost less here and some cost more. The variations in the price of some items between nations are pretty amazing.

From: Ned
18-Nov-17
They never should have socialized medicine in this country to begin with, what a mess Obama and the Democratic Communist party has created.

From: Woods Walker
18-Nov-17
Of course they did, they always do. And don't forget they LYING they did to get it passed.

From: Mike in CT
19-Nov-17
Those who simply look at costs will always miss the picture completely when it comes to "grading" US Healthcare.

Here's some context:

$16,716,383.00

$1,937,037.00

These two figures come from one major East Coast teaching hospital and are tied to a DRG (Diagnosis related groups) specific to renal failure. For those not in the know, DRG's are how many US hospitals are "compensated" for inpatient treatments.

Now, what are the two numbers exactly? The first number are the charges (cost) incurred by the hospital to provide treatment under those DRG's, the second represents the Medicare payments received for those treatments. I'm sure everyone here has sufficient math skills to see the charges far exceed the payments.

This, ladies and gents is what excessive regulation does; arbitrary caps are set on DRG reimbursements, excessive tests/procedures are run for reasons ranging from excessive to absurd (the tests that are run to "cover your ass" that have no medical need come to mind).

And, yeah, by the way, one of the pearls of wisdom of the PPACA was the lowering of Medicare reimbursements, further widening the gap and further burdening hospitals in the US.

So yes, I can get a little impatient at times with those so enamored of raw statistics there probing extends only as deep as the length of the average rice grain......

From: Bowbender
19-Nov-17

Bowbender's Link
Hey Benh,

Here's another shining example of how the government would run a single payer system.

From: zeke
19-Nov-17
Some above were comparing health insurance to home owner's or auto insurance. I wonder if home owners insurance would be any higher if it was required to cover electricity, natural gas, and water bills. Would auto insurance rates rise if it were a law that it paid for gas, tires and oil changes? Yet we expect health care insurance to pay when we take little Johnny to the doctor for the sniffles. Would the cost of home owners or auto insurance premiums increase if they had to pay for pre-existing conditions? I used to have a neighbor that had 2 children. The husband had a good union job with very good health care insurance. If one of their children got sick the mom would wait until after hours and take the child to the ER because there was not waiting line. She even bragged about it. I think if the patient was required to pay a significant co-pay for non life threatening events, premiums would go down significantly. I think it would reduce trips to the doctor for minor, trivial ailments. My rant over.

From: K Cummings
19-Nov-17
Mike:

I don't know if it is still this way, but Medicare/Medicaid DRG's weren't originally limited to a dollar limit, but to a specific number of inpatient days a hospital would be reimbursed for a given condition.

In other words, lets say the DRG for a specific condition was 7 days. If the patient was in the hospital for 9 days, the hospital was only paid for 7. If however the patient was released after 5, the hospital was still paid for 7.

Do you know if this is still the case?

If so, how many operational brain cells would it require to see the "unintended consequences" of that regulatory gem?

KPC

From: Woods Walker
19-Nov-17
Brain cells have nothing to do with it. It's more like power/influence/money/votes. That's all that actually matters to a politician, regardless of what they say, which you can't trust anyway as the lie constantly. Look at what they DO and the results of their actions and control. That's the real truth.

From: K Cummings
19-Nov-17
Zeke:

" I wonder if home owners insurance would be any higher if it was required to cover electricity, natural gas, and water bills. Would auto insurance rates rise if it were a law that it paid for gas, tires and oil changes? Yet we expect health care insurance to pay when we take little Johnny to the doctor for the sniffles. Would the cost of home owners or auto insurance premiums increase if they had to pay for pre-existing conditions? "

Some people, including many politicians, simply do not understand the concept of "insurance."

What do you think your auto insurance rate would be if you were forced to pay the same rate as the person with 3 DUI's, two at-fault accidents, and multiple moving violations?

What do you think the ultimate cost would be if your mortgage rate was the same as a person with no job, no assets, and no reasonable expectation of ever paying it back? ( I think we already know the answer to that one...)

Or what do you think the ultimate cost would be if the government handed out billions of dollars to students, in order to get degrees that will enable them to get minimum wage jobs. Assuming they actually end up getting a degree...or a job? (Sadly, we are about to find that out...)

KPC

From: K Cummings
19-Nov-17
"Brain cells have nothing to do with it. It's more like power/influence/money/votes...

Sure it does. Someone has to vote (or not vote) for the people that are promising to fix everything with the next great regulation.

Let's assume a guy catches a wolf in a leg-hold trap and decides to take it home and keep it as a pet. The wolf proceeds to kill and eat his toddler. Is that the wolf's fault or the fault of the moron that thought a wolf would make a cool pet.

Just like wolves, politicians do what politicians do. Vote carefully.

KPC

From: Mike in CT
19-Nov-17
Kevin,

The picture for US Hospitals wouldn't be as bleak if the original model were still followed; having DRG's predicated upon hospital stay allowed hospitals to be proactive in shortening LOS (length of stay) and those ahead of the curve benefited under the old system.

Today we have a pre-set $ amount based on the specific DRG; anything that drives costs higher (and excess regulation certainly does this) hurts the hospitals; add to that the reduction in Medicare reimbursements and you have the perfect storm for insolvency (take a look at NYC Hospitals 10-15 years ago and see how many have shut their doors).

Create a level playing field worldwide and we'd never hear about how US Healthcare compares to the rest of the civilized world; the skill level of doctors, especially specialists, the medical technology and innovations in the US are second to none; stop asking US Medicine/Healthcare to fight with 1 1/2 hands tied behind their backs and then do a true apples-to-apples comparison.

Thanks for the feedback!

From: bad karma
19-Nov-17
Those of us who were around when the government deregulated the airlines remember the doom and gloom stories. The net result is that airfares are cheaper than they were before. Same for deregulation of telephones....we used to have a long distance bill. Government regulation also slows innovation, since anything new must pass their testing first. As my late father told me, every new car from 1924 on had electric start. The Army vehicles had a hand crank starter until 1937. (He was in the NH national guard until he enlisted in the Army in WWII.)

You can't add thousands of clerks, and expect costs to decrease.

From: K Cummings
19-Nov-17
Mike:

The problem we were seeing around these parts with the previous DRG system was a rather perverse incentive to get patients out of the hospital as quickly as possible...whether or not they were really ready.

Now, while that might well be better for the hospital's bottom line, (as well as the bottom line of other heath care providers) it wasn't always in the best interest of the patient.

Health care is a very complicated and convoluted system. Rarely do additional regulations help, and they often make things worse.

*****

For those that think there is wholesale gouging going on by the big bad insurance companies, where is the massive outcry of gouging when it comes to a 500.00 Toyota grill emblem, 11,000.00 spine injections (which my wife had last spring), 5000.00 (sometimes unnecessary) MRI's, or multi million dollar lawsuit settlements.

When are people going to realize that insurance companies pass ALL costs on to policy holders.

KPC

From: NvaGvUp
19-Nov-17
Mike makes a lot of great points.

Consider this: If government ran the internet, we'd all be still using modems and dial-up to connect.

From: Woods Walker
19-Nov-17
....and we'd be paying an additional tax to pay for the "din-du-nuffins" to have a "FREE" computer.

From: bad karma
19-Nov-17
Well, we'd all be using 286 computers, as well as the crappy dial up stuff.

From: Bentstick81
23-Nov-17
A friend of mine just got his wife and his, obama care, surprise for next year. $1,550.00 a month, $13,000.00 deductible.

From: JTV
23-Nov-17
unless they are on deaths door step... they are stupid !!

From: Woods Walker
23-Nov-17
LMAO! So when does the "affordable" part kick in? Or did they lie about that too?

From: bad karma
23-Nov-17
I'm self employed, and am seeing the same thing. Insurance costs from $1k an up per month. And really, all I generally need are physicals, and prescriptions for my asthma meds, with an occasional hunting/sporting injury, even at my age.

From: petedrummond
23-Nov-17
I cant get over how hate filled people are indifferent to the suffering of others. As long as you got yours to hell with the rest of them! Do any of you go to church and who do you pray to the son of the living 401k? If you feel like this on thanksgiving what do you do on christmas? Maybe you can all lay back and watch Dickens" A Christmas Carol. " You all would let the boy die. Of note EVERY global competitor of the US has nationalized healthcare. Try Japan,China,Great Britain France Germany and all the rest. IF WE GET A DECENT NATIONAL HEALTH CARE NONE OF YOU WILL MISS A MEAL! Look in the mirror.

From: Trax
23-Nov-17
So called peterfrummond, poster fool for the blind and dumb liberal sheep. You've got your facts mixed up idiot. It is the socialist countries where big stinking power government chooses winners and losers in health care, it is these socialized plans that limit health care. OBOZOCARE has given us a system that costs a lot more and provides for much less health care in the big picture. We must return health care to the private sector and reform it there. This starts with kicking every illegal off the health system and creating an environment where they will buy their own bus ticket back to THEIR country.

Then the fool brings up "A Christmas Carol". Did you notice fool how Scrooge never closed his business down? He continued to do business, because his business was completely legitimate. It has to do with personal responsibility fool, it has to do with paying your own way. But, blind dumb sheep liberals will always be blind dumb sheep liberals.

From: HDE
23-Nov-17
A guy with subsidized healthcare will retain or get an increase in their wellbeing. The guy paying for it will have a decrease in their wellbeing and petedrummond wonders why some do not like obamacare...

My monthly premium went up which means less cash in my pocket.

Petedrummond, why did my premuim go up and decrease my overall wellbeing?

From: Woods Walker
23-Nov-17
"Petedrummond, why did my premuim go up and decrease my overall wellbeing?"

Because the GOVERNMENT is running it. Everything they touch turns to sh*t. If you think it's fornicated up now, just wait until the run ALL of it!!!

Keep the government as far away from it as possible.

From: Annony Mouse
23-Nov-17
Insurance being confused as an entitlement...

From: HDE
23-Nov-17
Oh, I know why it went up - I was checking to see if he knew.

In fact, I expect a check from all of these benevolent givers of my funds as my subsidy...

From: petedrummond
23-Nov-17
Trax do i know you? Another internet tough guy i see. I also see you dont have the balls to use your own name. Are you ashamed of it?

From: Mike in CT
24-Nov-17

Mike in CT's Link
Often I'm reminded of the vast difference between those who deal in actual realities versus those who consistently argue from theoretical hypotheses; the former inevitably produces a tangible, and accurate assessment, the latter only platitudes that ultimately ring hollow juxtaposed with promises that will remain eternally unfulfilled.

Repeat after me (as many times as necessary): "There is no such thing as a free lunch."

It's also disappointing to see the same strawman of callousness trotted out whenever people rightly point out that being asked to voluntarily contribute and being forced to contribute are world's removed from each other.

Christian (or any virtues for that matter) do not arise from willing subjugation to tyranny, nor are they suddenly in absentia when the refusal to be extorted is presented.

Extortion is not confined to the barrel of a gun or the point of a knife; the legislative pen has a history of actions that certainly meet the universally accepted definition.

Posters like bownarrow, and of course, Gray Ghost will always have my ear as they treat this topic with respect and offer their own thoughts and perspectives on the subject, as opposed to the endless regurgitation of leftist talking points with no foundation in anything other than an attitude of unequivocal, universal entitlement; I'm always willing to be proven wrong and am happy to engage these two gentlemen on this, or any other weighty topic; their message is not blunted and certainly not lost behind the wailing of histrionics and hyperbole.

When you fall into that latter camp, with regard to your opinion; to borrow from an all-time movie classic, "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."

From: JTV
24-Nov-17
"decent national health care"... Drummond, there is no such thing as long as the Government is involved...but hey, being the lib you are, you want Govs hand in it ....I dont.... Ive been screwed on health care ever since your asswipe Obama did this crap to the nation ....

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