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Contributors to this thread:
NvaGvUp 30-Nov-17
Shuteye 30-Nov-17
Woods Walker 30-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 30-Nov-17
Spike Bull 30-Nov-17
K Cummings 30-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 30-Nov-17
HDE 30-Nov-17
K Cummings 30-Nov-17
Gray Ghost 30-Nov-17
Ryan from Boone 30-Nov-17
Ryan from Boone 30-Nov-17
Woods Walker 30-Nov-17
NvaGvUp 30-Nov-17
Shuteye 30-Nov-17
Atheist 01-Dec-17
Bentstick81 01-Dec-17
K Cummings 01-Dec-17
adobe 01-Dec-17
Spike Bull 01-Dec-17
K Cummings 01-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 01-Dec-17
K Cummings 01-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 01-Dec-17
K Cummings 01-Dec-17
Amoebus 01-Dec-17
Atheist 01-Dec-17
Bentstick81 01-Dec-17
MT in MO 01-Dec-17
NvaGvUp 01-Dec-17
Atheist 02-Dec-17
Bentstick81 02-Dec-17
NvaGvUp 02-Dec-17
Shuteye 02-Dec-17
Woods Walker 02-Dec-17
From: NvaGvUp
30-Nov-17
From Yahoo Finance:

"50% of Firms Say They'll Hire More People if Tax Cuts Pass"

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, libs!

From: Shuteye
30-Nov-17
Some have already started hiring.

From: Woods Walker
30-Nov-17
You really want to see hiring? ELIMINATE corporate taxes entirely! Corporations don't pay a dime of them anyway, the end consumer does as a cost to produce the good/service. Any business that doesn't do this is run by idiots and will not be around very long.

30-Nov-17
I agree WW. I want the users of the said corporate goods and services to pay the taxes associated with the consumption of same. I don't want to spread it around to every tax payer like communism. What about the taxes eliminated from cigarette companies.....should we all pay the taxes that should be owned solely by those stupid enough to smoke?

From: NvaGvUp
30-Nov-17
WW,

Yup, in an ideal world that would be my preference as well.

But when you don't live in an ideal world, you take what you can get.

30-Nov-17
I believe the tax code was written that way. Private persons have no taxable income and no obligation to pay taxes, the system is voluntary. However, corporations are obliged to pay taxes. The schedule for taxation and penalties is only in the corporate side of the code.

Sales generate taxes which the corps pay to the government.

Seems like there is a popular tax plan which reads that way but the government is so addicted to using our money and resources to suit their personal needs for power that this will be a very tough sell.

Most of you don't believe what you can read for yourselves with a little research. Mind you, I am not talking about all the illegal, by virtue of being unConstitutional, "laws" that will be cited as answers to my post.

I am talking about what is the real intention of the founders and the real laws they wrote.

From: K Cummings
30-Nov-17
US Constitution Article 1, section 8

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Sixteenth Ammendment to the US Constitution

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

KPC

From: NvaGvUp
30-Nov-17
True, Kevin.

But remember who you're dealing with here........the ultimate conspiracy theory believer.

From: HDE
30-Nov-17
The 16th would have never been ratified in 1790...

It took a socialist mindset in front of a sheepish electorate.

From: K Cummings
30-Nov-17
HDE:

That might be true, but even Article 1, section 8 doesn't preclude an individual income tax.

KPC

From: Gray Ghost
30-Nov-17
"When people are greedy......"

Just saying.

Matt

30-Nov-17
This is a table that the Senate GOP didn't want you to see. They were sitting on it for 2 days. It shows that over 80% (yup, 4 out of 5) of ALL households end up with a tax increase or get basically nothing from their so-called "middle class tax cut." So not only is it terrible for the middle & lower classes but its DESTRUCTIVE for our children, grandchildren and great grands for they will be paying off the trillions of dollars of debt that the budget is forcing on them... No other way to look at it.

30-Nov-17
Heres the real question: At a time when those at the top and major corporations are doing better than ever before, why are they willing to cut Medicaid and Medicare and raise taxes on the working man in order to make the rich even richer? There is no good answer, I recognize that, but lets keep asking that question. Also, if you're for this plan and as expected, it explodes the deficit and debt by over $1 trillion, you can no longer call yourself a fiscally responsible conservative.

From: Woods Walker
30-Nov-17
Liar.

From: NvaGvUp
30-Nov-17
The fact is, PZ, that people in the lower income brackets pay ZERO taxes already. So any tax bill that results in them paying a few dollars in taxes is a tiny increase in the dollars they pay, yet a YUGE increase in the % of the taxes they pay.

After all, if you currently pay $100/year in taxes and the new bill calls for you to pay $150/year in taxes, that's a 50% increase, even though it's only $4/per month.

So what you're doing is commonly referred to as lying using statistics.

From: Shuteye
30-Nov-17
The liberals are saying the tax cut will cost 1.4 trillion over ten years. That is based on 1.9% GDP which is what Obama had for years. Obama never hit 3% in 8 years. Trump has done it for three quarters. If that keep up there will be a huge gain in loot over 10 years.

From: Atheist
01-Dec-17
So you admit it’s a tax increase for lower and middle-class? Then may be the Republicans should stop calling it a tax cut for the middle class. It’s not. But I notice you fail to address the rising deficit. By all accounts even a 3% GDP will not pay for the extra debt. But I notice you fail to address the rising deficit. By all accounts even a 3% GDP will not pay for the extra debt.

From: Bentstick81
01-Dec-17
atheist. You are a FRAUD.

From: K Cummings
01-Dec-17

K Cummings's Link
I can no longer see the chart that is being discussed but one thing I noticed when it was still viewable is that the projections were for the calendar year 2027.

It should be noted that the chart in question was 1 of 5 charts (at link) showing projections for 2019, 2021, 2023, 2025, and 2027. The charts are very different in terms of "projected" impact, the 2027 chart of course being the worse. The charts for 2019 and 2021 show something quite different.

Furthermore, the charts appear to only deal in static tax assumptions, and do not address anything relating to the jobs and income segment of what a plan like this is intended to create.

It should also be noted that government projections have proven to be very inaccurate one year out, and 10 years out is simply fantasy...regardless of which side of the isle the projections are coming from.

KPC

From: adobe
01-Dec-17
Now left is concerned about the debt.. where were they when Barry almost doubled the debt?

01-Dec-17
Hahahahaaaa!

"........the ultimate conspiracy theory believer. "

Says the ultimate conspiracy theory denier!!

In the face of all the information leaking out about just the Clinton conspiracies alone, who has a better record, Nva!?!

From: K Cummings
01-Dec-17
"True, Kevin. But remember who you're dealing with here........the ultimate conspiracy theory believer."

Have you ever noticed that when people claim to know the real intent of certain things in the constitution, those "intents" always seem to directly coincide with the particular agenda being advanced.

To me, Article 1, Section 8 is pretty clear in terms of what the government has the power to do regarding taxation.

KPC

From: Gray Ghost
01-Dec-17
This tax plan is just another regurgitated attempt at trickle-down economics. When Reagan tried it without cutting spending, the national debt tripled.

Matt

From: K Cummings
01-Dec-17
When Reagan "tried it," revenues soared...whereas spending soared more.

A growing economy generates more tax revenue. That is not in question. The spending is always the issue. Spending, i.e. entitlement spending, must be dealt with or no amount of tax increases will EVER solve the deficit or debt problem.

In a capitalist system,ALL economics is trickle down economics. Suggesting otherwise is nothing more than attempting to pit one socioeconomic class against another for political gain.

KPC

From: Gray Ghost
01-Dec-17
"A growing economy generates more tax revenue. That is not in question."

Nor did I suggest it was in question. Our legislators continue to only focus on one side of the equation, while ignoring the other side. Wash, rinse, and repeat.....

Matt

From: K Cummings
01-Dec-17
"Nor did I suggest it was in question."

So why did you suggest the following?

This tax plan is just another regurgitated attempt at trickle-down economics."

So if you admit that the reducing taxes and growing the economy will increase revenue, why do you then suggest that "this tax plan" is the problem and that it is nothing more than "trickle down economics?"

It's akin to suggesting that if a family continually spends more than they make, getting a raise is somehow the cause.

KPC

From: Amoebus
01-Dec-17
adobe - "Now left is concerned about the debt.. where were they when Barry almost doubled the debt?"

Late to the party, I guess. What is the repubs excuse? As self-professed fiscal conservatives, this tax bill should be anathema on bowsite.

From: Atheist
01-Dec-17
Thank you amoebus. All those that claim to be a fiscal conservative need to justify the addition of over one trillion dollars to the deficit. Trickle down has never, ever worked except to blow up the deficit. History is clear on this.

From: Bentstick81
01-Dec-17
atheist. You are a Fraud. On here, you are not who YOU claim to be., but that seems to be ok with you, THE PHONY FRAUD.

From: MT in MO
01-Dec-17
Trickle down economics is an invention of the left to explain capitalism in simple, yet derogatory terms, in their attempts to promote socialism and communism as functional economic models.

No poor man ever gave another man a good paying job, and no government has ever created wealth for their people by taxing their income and spending their money for them.

With that said, I have no idea if this tax plan is good or bad. It is damn near impossible to get a good read on anything these days.

I do know that $20 TRILLION dollars is a boat load of money and the current level of tax revenues will never pay that debt off without major changes in spending habits and/or a big increase in revenues, and even then it is questionable if it will ever be paid off...JMO

From: NvaGvUp
01-Dec-17
Guys,

FWIW, the CBO scoring on this sort of stuff is an absolute joke.

As has been noted, they use 'static' scoring, which assumes investors, consumers and employers do nothing to change their actions and behaviors when legislation such as this becomes law.

That assumption is 100% crappola, as employers in particular make dramatic changes in their actions and behaviors as noted above. They hire more people, who then pay taxes. They sell more stuff, which means the sellers of that stuff pay more taxes when they sell that stuff. Then their income and profits increase, meaning they pay more taxes than what the CBO's static scoring assumes.

From: Atheist
02-Dec-17
We are full employment, stock market is at record high, companies are making record profits. Why do we need a Corp tax cut? How about a massive infrastructure bill paid for by corporations rather than another tax cut that will ensure they hoard the money and buy back stock. This is no help to the middle and lower class

From: Bentstick81
02-Dec-17
atheist. You are a FRAUD. You are asking more questions, people are answering them, and you fail to answer questions back to you, and turn and run off, as usual. Take a hike PHONY!

From: NvaGvUp
02-Dec-17
Atheist,

We are NOT at full employment. But as an uninformed idiot, you wouldn't know that.

Millions of people simply quit looking for jobs during the Obama years. As a result, they do not factor into the unemployment rates the media refers to because the Feds only count you as unemployed if you are unemployed but actively looking for work.

From: Shuteye
02-Dec-17
When they cut out the billions they are paying illegal aliens and loafers, a bunch more money will be available.

From: Woods Walker
02-Dec-17
Hell, all they have to do is require drug screening for anyone taking a penny of gubmint money. The welfare payouts alone would drop to almost nothing.

I have to take a drug screen to GET a job where they confiscate part of the money I earn to pay for recipients of government largess, so it's only fair that they should have to pass the same test to receive it! I mean what they hell, I'M the one working for it, all they do is get it just for being them!

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