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SCOTUS Approves Trump's 'Travel Ban'
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Contributors to this thread:
NvaGvUp 04-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 04-Dec-17
JL 04-Dec-17
JTV 04-Dec-17
Rhody 04-Dec-17
Bowfreak 04-Dec-17
'Ike' (Phone) 04-Dec-17
Rocky 04-Dec-17
Shuteye 05-Dec-17
Atheist 05-Dec-17
Bentstick81 05-Dec-17
Atheist 05-Dec-17
Bentstick81 05-Dec-17
Atheist 05-Dec-17
Bentstick81 05-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 05-Dec-17
Bentstick81 05-Dec-17
Shuteye 05-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 05-Dec-17
Trax 05-Dec-17
Michael 05-Dec-17
Michael 05-Dec-17
NvaGvUp 05-Dec-17
HDE 05-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 05-Dec-17
bigeasygator 05-Dec-17
JTV 05-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 05-Dec-17
HDE 05-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 05-Dec-17
NvaGvUp 05-Dec-17
Spike Bull 05-Dec-17
Woods Walker 05-Dec-17
NvaGvUp 05-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 05-Dec-17
Trax 05-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 05-Dec-17
bigeasygator 05-Dec-17
NvaGvUp 05-Dec-17
Michael 05-Dec-17
Gray Ghost 05-Dec-17
JTV 05-Dec-17
NvaGvUp 05-Dec-17
HDE 05-Dec-17
Woods Walker 05-Dec-17
From: NvaGvUp
04-Dec-17
One more victory.

Only two justices dissented.

"U.S. top court lets Trump's latest travel ban go into full effect

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday handed a victory to President Donald Trump by allowing his latest travel ban targeting people from six Muslim-majority countries to go into full effect even as legal challenges continue in lower courts.

The court, with two of the nine justices dissenting, granted his administration's request to lift two injunctions imposed by lower courts that had partially blocked the ban, which is the third version of a contentious policy that Trump first sought to implement a week after taking office in January.

The high court's action means that the ban will now go fully into effect for people seeking to enter the United States from Iran, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Somalia and Chad. Lower courts had previously limited the scope of the ban to people without certain family or other connections to the United States.

Trump's ban also covers people from North Korea and certain government officials from Venezuela, but lower courts had already allowed those provisions to go into effect.

The nine-member high court said in two similar one-page orders on Monday that lower court rulings that partly blocked the latest ban should be put on hold while appeals courts in San Francisco and Richmond, Virginia weigh the cases. Both courts are due to hear arguments in those cases this week. Two of court's liberal justices, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor, said they would have denied the administration's request.

The ban was challenged in separate lawsuits by the state of Hawaii and the American Civil Liberties Union. Both sets of challengers said the latest ban, like the earlier ones, discriminates against Muslims in violation of the U.S. Constitution and is not permissible under immigration laws.

Trump issued his first travel ban targeting several Muslim-majority countries in January, then issued a revised one in March after the first was blocked by federal courts. The second one expired in September after a long court fight and was replaced with the present version. "

From: Gray Ghost
04-Dec-17
Do-overs are usually more successful. Especially the third time around.

Matt

From: JL
04-Dec-17
I was a little surprised, and happy only two Justices dissented. It looks like the lower court rulings will still work thru the system.

From: JTV
04-Dec-17
As it should be... he will be totally vindicated when the final case is over ...

From: Rhody
04-Dec-17
No surprise here. Liberals just trying to thwart anything Trump getting their asses handed to them.

From: Bowfreak
04-Dec-17
Trump, right again and still making America great!

04-Dec-17
But, but Trump is such a bad guy, how can this be...Congrats Mr. President!

From: Rocky
04-Dec-17
Who is this masked man?

The Rock

From: Shuteye
05-Dec-17
I bet the next thing we will be watching will be law suits against Trump giving a million acres back to Utah.

"During the Christmas season last year, the Obama administration ignored the majority of Utahans by designating a vast tract of land in southern Utah as a national monument.

Last week, the Department of the Interior took a welcome step toward reversing this executive abuse and returning to a legislative solution.

President Barack Obama used the 1906 Antiquities Act, written to protect “objects of historic or scientific interest,” to transform 1.3 million acres in San Juan County into the Bears Ears National Monument.

There is no doubt that specific sites within the new monument demonstrate historic, scientific, as well as cultural and spiritual significance. Native American tribes believe the area is sacred. And every citizen can appreciate the natural beauty of the sandstone buttes that gave the area its name."

Trump thinks people should be able to hunt and fish and Obama doesn't.

From: Atheist
05-Dec-17
Trump just removed the protections that could eventually allow fracking, mining, and building on those lands. Or what trump called “responsible economic ventures”. Obama’s protections didn’t prevent even one hunter from hunting those lands. His intent was to prevent the misuse of those lands. Time will tell if trumps move will benefit those lands.

From: Bentstick81
05-Dec-17
atheist. You are a FRAUD.

From: Atheist
05-Dec-17
Top 5 Foreign-Born Terrorist Countries of Origin, 1975-2015

- Saudi Arabia - United Arab Emirates - Egypt - Lebanon - Kuwait - Cuba

Number of these countries on Trump's Travel ban: 0

From: Bentstick81
05-Dec-17
atheist. You are a FRAUD.

From: Atheist
05-Dec-17
And you’re my greatest fan. Admit it so we can move on. ??

From: Bentstick81
05-Dec-17
atheist. You are a FRAUD. Just pointing out the LYING FRAUD, that you are. I don't mind at all, and will continue to do so. I am moving on.

From: Gray Ghost
05-Dec-17
"Trump thinks people should be able to hunt and fish and Obama doesn't."

This isn't about hunting and fishing on these lands. You can do those things now. It's about energy exploration, mining, and other industrial development. In fact, Trump's move to shrink both of these monuments will likely result in fewer public hunting and fishing opportunities.

Matt

From: Bentstick81
05-Dec-17
Another thing atheist. I will never be a fan of a LIAR. You want to live with being known as someone nobody can trust, that is your choice. I will continue to point out, the LIAR you are. Not a problem.

From: Shuteye
05-Dec-17
You were not allowed to even walk on these lands Obama designated Monuments. You could not hunt fish, walk or even ride a bicycle on the land. The Federal government still owns most of Utah but at least the residents can use it. I suppose of they were to do some logging the liberals would poop in their pants. They want the trees left alone so they can have built up downed old trees and brush so they can have nice forest fires like in California.

From: Gray Ghost
05-Dec-17
"You were not allowed to even walk on these lands Obama designated Monuments. You could not hunt fish, walk or even ride a bicycle on the land."

Nonsense. Where did you get that notion?

Matt

From: Trax
05-Dec-17
Not sure how this thread morphed to being a monument thread but both were once again great moves by President Trump. The federal imperial government has seized far too much land from the states. I'm all for more public access for hunting, I'm all for more sensible logging, mining, and energy usage.

As far as the "travel ban" I said from the beginning it would pass and it will win all appeals. Leave it to atheist to again prove to us how jaded, biased, and stupid heshe is. The ban is on countries who are not vetting properly and working with us to vet properly. Arabia and Egypt for example are real hot spots but work with us on vetting, in an extreme way when needed. Cuba is a crap hole and an enemy to the free world all right, but are they a hub for terror coming to this country or training there? It is the islamic swine we need to be focused on, those that are planning and attacking freedom throughout the world in the name of their insane theocracy. Along with those that would applaud them. That's not Cuba. We also have no vetting problems with Cuba. It is a real crime that mikey V is allowed to go near children as an educator.

From: Michael
05-Dec-17

Michael's Link
According to the link you could hunt and fish on the Bears Ear NM.

From: Michael
05-Dec-17

Michael's Link

From: NvaGvUp
05-Dec-17
Matt,

"In fact, Trump's move to shrink both of these monuments will likely result in fewer public hunting and fishing opportunities."

BZZZT!

Wrong! National Monuments make it challenging for sportsmen to access and often times prevents state agencies and their NGO partners from accessing said lands to manage wildlife at all.

From: HDE
05-Dec-17

HDE's embedded Photo
Dry Hole marker near Bears Ears
HDE's embedded Photo
Dry Hole marker near Bears Ears
Atheist - you are wrong about the use of BE's. Attached is a pic of a dry hole marker from the 60's just east of the two buttes. Any E&P company worth a flip would drill off the mountian directionally anyway to reduce cost.

That mountain did not form overnight. The locals have been using it for decades, if not centuries and has yet to become a wasteland.

From: Gray Ghost
05-Dec-17
Kyle,

Every square inch of the land Trump re-designated will still be under federal control. It merely opens the land up for certain commercial activities that were previously restricted under the monument designation, like energy exploration and production.

Just like the vast acres of BLM in Colorado, when those commercial activities take hold they reduce opportunities for hunters and fishermen. Ranchers with grazing rights will treat the land like their own, often limiting public access. Land that once rewarded a determined hunter or fisherman willing to put in the effort, will inevitably have a spiderweb of roads and 2-tracks that lazy hunters and fisherman will buzz around on 4-wheelers. I've seen it happen dozens of times with land I'm familiar with here.

Matt

From: bigeasygator
05-Dec-17
Bingo Matt^^^ Had beers with President and CEO of BHA Land Tawney last night and we spent quite a bit of time talking about the assault on our public lands. Anyone that thinks this move is in anyway good for sportsmen doesn't understand what is happening. Anyone that thinks these lands are better off in state hands doesn't understand the history of state lands in this country. The Grand Staircase Escalante NM includes the Kaiparowits Plateau, home to some of the best desert sheep hunting in Utah.

From: JTV
05-Dec-17
When Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante were designated national monuments, most public use of the millions of acres – other than hiking – was prohibited.

That included hunting and fishing, and allowed the Interior Department to issue only a limited number of livestock grazing permits.

It also prohibited Americans from building bathrooms and fire pits.

More consequentially, it put most of those lands off-limits for mining, oil and gas drilling, and logging.

And most motorized vehicles, including trucks, ATVs and motorbikes were shut out.

Returning most of those acres to local control will reverse what oil and gas companies call a federal land grab.

National monuments are somewhat like national parks: lands that are protected by law from most development.

While Congress creates national parks, howveer, national monuments are created by presidents under the 1906 Antiquities Act, a law that allows the White House to unilaterally mark millions of acres off-limits.

The Antiquities Act requires presidents to limit their national monument designations to the 'the smallest area compatible' with the care of the land.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz50LXHAvLc Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Utah Republican leaders had complained that the monuments locked up too much federal land. And Trump said 'this tragic federal overreach' had resulted in 'harmful restrictions on hunting, ranching

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz50LYEGAWj Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

From: Gray Ghost
05-Dec-17
"When Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante were designated national monuments, most public use of the millions of acres – other than hiking – was prohibited."

More nonsense. Read my link if you want the truth. Here's the pertinent quote regarding hunting and fishing in Bears Ear:

Will hunting, fishing, and outfitting continue?

"Yes. Hunting, fishing and outfitting are popular and important activities for local communities and for recreation-oriented small businesses. The Forest Service and BLM will continue to apply the laws, regulations and policies currently used in issuing and administering permits on public lands in the national monument, consistent with the proper care and management of the national monument. The monument does not change the State of Utah’s jurisdiction as it relates to fish and wildlife management."

https://www.fs.fed.us/sites/default/files/bear-ears-fact-sheet.pdf

Matt

From: HDE
05-Dec-17
Before BE's was designated, it was open to extraction and development. Please explain why an infrastructure is not currently in place.

Please explain why unit 2C in NM is a hotspot and "holy grail" for large mule deer in New Mexico and the very heart of oil and gas development.

There are already many federal laws on the books that protect the land. A monument was not needed for BE's.

From: Gray Ghost
05-Dec-17

Gray Ghost's Link
More facts about BE from the link:

Does the national monument affect existing rights-of-way, water or utility infrastructure or commercial activities?

"The national monument designation does not alter or affect valid existing rights of any party and will not impact the operation, maintenance, replacements or modification of existing utilities, pipelines or telecommunications, as long as they are consistent with the care and management of the objects identified in the national monument proclamation."

Matt

From: NvaGvUp
05-Dec-17
Matt,

Access for state wildlife agencies to manage wildlife on federal land often depends of the whims of the BLM, USFS or NPS Superintendent for that particular area. 'Access to manage' on Monument properties is even more challenging.

The 'access to manage' issue has been one of my top two issues when I go back to DC to lobby. The other issue, of course, is the disease issue involving domestic sheep transferring a deadly pneumonia virus to wild sheep when they come in contact with each other.

Every state wildlife agency in the West has horror stories about the Feds deying access to them on important wildlifee management issues. The issue often involves simply who the superintendant of the day is. I've had personal experiences where we were being told 'Hell, no,' by an NPS Superintendent in CA. Then she got transferred and her replacement was exactly the opposite. He'd call us and ask us to come and help.

For example, this latest expension on monumuments created the Castle Peak Monument in CA. There's an old style big game drinker there which is heavily used by wild sheep and which is in desperate need of repair. Back in the 90's, an identical style drinker in CA had a ram get up on the top of the deteriorating tank. He fell through and drowned. Two more wild sheep then also fell through and drowned. Then 45 more wild sheep later died of botulisim from drinking the contaminated water.

The drinker in the Castle Peak Monument needs repairing or better yet would be to replace it with a newer style drinker. But the Feds are saying CA DFW and the Society for the Conservation of Bighorn Sheep cannot come in and fix the problem unless it's an 'emergency.'

When aked what would be considered an 'emergency,' the Feds are essentially saying we'd have to wait until another incident like the one I mentioned above takes place. UFB!

I've been to DC twice this year to lobby on this issue and have met with Sec. Zinke's staff on this both times. Less than one week after we were back there in early Sept., Sec. Zinke issued Executive Order 3356 directing Dept. of the Interior land managers to work with and cooperate with state and tribal agencies and their NGO partners so as to allow them access to manage wildlife on the lands in their jurisdictions.

05-Dec-17
GG, what is on paper is sometimes pretty propaganda designed to get the large, passive, segment of middle America on board. As you can attest, it works all too well.

From: Woods Walker
05-Dec-17
What does this have to do with a travel ban?? Or is Lex trying to increase the value of his popcorn stock? ;-)

From: NvaGvUp
05-Dec-17
Spike,

Exactly.

Although the Desert Protection Act (created the Mojave National Preserve back in the '90s') clearly states the CA DFW has sole rights to manage wildlife on the MNP, the language is oftentimes meaningless as noted above, because whomever is the superintendent at the moment will often interpret it however he or she chooses to do so, then do whatever he or she darn well pleases.

From: Gray Ghost
05-Dec-17
Kyle,

Thanks for your efforts to help the Bighorn sheep.

From what I'm reading from numerous sources, the monument designation in Bears Ear and in Grand Staircase-Escalante didn't change the state's wildlife regulations or authority in either location.

Trump's ruling simply changes the land designations back to what they were before, which was mostly BLM. The feds still ultimately control all of the land. The state still manages the wildlife and sets wildlife regulations. The only difference is, now those public lands are subject to other commercial activities that were previously restricted under the monument status. Based on my experiences here in Colorado, that is never good for outdoorsmen. Ever.

I'd love for certain BLM properties in Colorado to be designated as monuments. That would eliminate a vast majority of the lazy yahoos on their 4-wheelers who ruin the hunting and fishing for everyone on those properties.

I caution the outdoorsmen of Utah to be careful of what they wish for.

Matt

From: Trax
05-Dec-17
There is a much bigger picture at hand than just 4-wheelers carrying hunters. I hunt both state and federal lands on another western state and most all of those roads are gated and ban motorized vehicles. If locals want it a certain way they should have it in cases like this. We need far less federal land and far more state land.

Trumps travel ban? Much needed.

From: Gray Ghost
05-Dec-17
"We need far less federal land and far more state land."

And Trump's ruling did neither of those things. it was fed land before the monument designation, and it remains fed land now, only with fewer commercial and industrial restrictions.

My apologies for derailing this thread.

Matt

From: bigeasygator
05-Dec-17
"We need far less federal land and far more state land"

As a sportsman, I couldn't disagree more. I kind of like having 640 million acres of land at my disposal. Given the legal requirements around state land and the track record of the states in managing it (Nevada has sold off 99.9% of the state land it has ever owned, as it was required to; Utah is at 50%; the numbers are similar across other western states), I struggle to see how anyone thinks this could possibly be a good idea, at least from the perspective of a sportsman.

From: NvaGvUp
05-Dec-17
Matt,

"From what I'm reading from numerous sources, the monument designation in Bears Ear and in Grand Staircase-Escalante didn't change the state's wildlife regulations or authority in either location. "

That's probably true. It's also misleading and even irrelevant because in the minds of the land managers for those federal properties, the 'monument' designation elevates the importance of those lands and they therefore are more apt to restrict access for state and tribal agencies and their NGO partners to manage wildlife.

That's exactly what happened in the Castle Peak monument area. Prior to the monument designation, SCBS (which built the drinker) would have been able to replace or repair the drinker in question. But now they are being told they will only be allowed to do so in an 'emergency,' regardless of the current threat to wild sheep the aging drinker presents.

From: Michael
05-Dec-17
I agree BEG. Turning lands over to the state is a slippery slope sportsman don’t want to take on.

Throw in that the lands in question are in Utah. Home of SFW and we all know how they help the common hunter. They already took to many tags no way we want the lands to be in there control.

From: Gray Ghost
05-Dec-17
Kyle,

I'd love to discuss this more with you, but perhaps we should start a new thread. It seems staying on topic has suddenly become important to a few. As if that ever happens here.

Matt

From: JTV
05-Dec-17
Oh yea, the feds have done so damn well with the wolf and bear management and management of wildlife within the Nat. Park system ..... I dont trust the feds one bit to do the right thing... not with the infiltration by enviro nutcases and HSUS types within ...

From: NvaGvUp
05-Dec-17
Matt,

It's my thread. The discussion has moved to an important topic, so I'm cool with that.

From: HDE
05-Dec-17
I agree on the state land thing. I think we've all seen how irresponsible state land management can be at times. The political ties run deep and too many favors are granted at state levels.

From: Woods Walker
05-Dec-17
Well the good thing is that we obviously all agree with the SCOTUS decision regarding the travel ban! OUTSTANDING!

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