Justified or Murder?
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Contributors to this thread:
Leaning to Murder but not sure
I saw on the news yesterday the Officer was acquitted..... although he was fired 2 weeks after the incident and there is a 75 million dollar lawsuit pending....... his commands were horrible....
Found not guilty right?
Sure seems the cop was unreasonable. Lay down, sit up, hands in the air, hands flat on the floor...it went on and on.What was the whole 'crawl to me' thing about?
I hate second guessing our guys in Blue....but that didn't seem like normal procedure.
The last thing he specifically told him not to do or he would be shot was exactly what that dummy did! Tough call.
The officer giving the commands was not the shooter and retired two weeks after the shooting and moved to the Philippines ....
The information I found was that he was fired. If not they told him to resign or he would be fired. He wasn't old enough to retire.... He probably would not willingly quit if he was facing a murder trial.....
There were reports of a person waving a gun out the window of that room is what I read as to the original call....
I back our guys in blue 100%.
I would go back to the people who trained both the officer giving commands and the officer that fired the shots and start firing everyone that trained them as well as was in charge of the two. The entire chain of command is at fault here. No way the officers around these two didn't know that it was just a matter of time until this happened.
That poor kid was confused as hell. Trying to obey the @ssholes commands, crying....WTF it takes over 4 minutes to control a subdued "suspect"? That video right there is why folks are getting pissed about police tactics. Personally, if that "cop" was found face down in puddle of brain goo, I wouldn't blink an eye.
The guy appeared to be very drunk. He reached to his waistband at the end to pull up his pants and that is why the officer was acquitted... It should have never come to that.... The commands given were horrible...
Did you see what was on the dust cover of the cops rifle. On another site they show it, it says, you're effed. The jury wasn't allowed to see that bit of info during the trial for whatever reason. I call outright murder on this one as well. All the simon says commands were ridiculous. The cop giving the commands knew what outcome he wanted the whole time.
Two officers that never should have been in the business and hopefully will never be again...
Yes I saw that ...... it was a totally stupid rookie thing to do etching that into his Department Issued rifle..... I've seen dumb ass rookies put stupid crap like skull and crossbones stickers on their magazines.... I tell them to take that dumb crap off... if they are ever involved in a shooting the gun will be confiscated as evidence...... As of December 1st I am the top seniority Officer in our Department of about 100 Officers.... 125 including command Officers (Sgts, Lts and Deputy Chiefs)..... It is our job to teach the rookies not to do dumb shit like seen in that video....
Murder !!! What a joke. I hope someone finds all of those cops sitting in their squad cars some night and shoots them all. Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. Those cops where wanting to kill someone. A cross walk guard could have handled it better.
I tend to give the boys in blue the benefit of the doubt however I question why they needed him to crawl. Why didn't they just have him spread eagle right there and then cuff him. They had enough firepower pointing at the guy. They did ask him if he was drunk and he said no however I think his BAC was .29 if I remember right. Was he a little quick with the trigger? Maybe, but remember, the original call was for someone pointing a weapon out the hotel window so I think that has to be considered in the whole context. If the call had been for loud mouths in a hotel room, I think the officers might have been not quite so trigger happy.
Get your hands up and keep them there. Turn around. Get on your knees. Keep your hands up. Cross your feet. Don't move. Handcuffs. The end. Everyone goes home. End of story.
jdee..... One man pulled the trigger. One man killed that suspect..... he was fired.... To call for the assasination of any other Officers that were there is STUPID !! They did not have control of the trigger of the Officer who shot the suspect and was fired. You might as well be calling for the assasination of me because I am a Police Officer...
I think the reason they had him crawl was to get him further from the room, the officers seemed to have a question as to whether there might be someone else there. I agree, the commands were terrible and from what I can tell from the video, the shooting was unjustified. Sad outcome.
I am not sure what is more amazing ....the video or posters above who are equivocating about if it was murder or not, justified or not, or calling it a "tough call"
Been thinking about what I posted earlier and if it crossed the line.....Never saw anything so horrifying and over the top out of control by LE in my 56 years. I cannot believe that the video was not shown to the jury. There was only one possible outcome and that was decided at the beginning.
I am tired of defending LE on sites like Cop-Block, local newspapers, links from friends on Facebook, etc... Making excuses for egregious behavior, giving them the benefit of the doubt because they have a tough job. Commenting that you can't make a decision about a cops behavior on a 30 second video clip. Context and all. And honestly, the LE on here should be tired of it as well. Quit your damn sniveling and stop defending their actions or riding the fence about whether it was murder or self defense.
Wanna know why citizens treat cops with suspicion, mistrust and an attitude? Watch that video till it sinks in. Understand you serve the people, that was your oath. Not the blue line.
Boubound please explain your amazement.
Big Bear can't you see the guy was so scared he couldn't think right ? That guy yelling at him and his gang members were wanting to murder someone that night . Why do they call them cops ? Because Crips and Bloods are already taken. After watching that its is no wonder so many cops are hated today.
If people would stop selling drugs, mass shootings, sex trafficking, stealing, being in gangs the list is long. The police would not be needed. The law was broke, that's why the Police officer was there in the first place. Dont want to get shot by Police Jpee? Dont put yourself in a position to get shot by Police. Dont break the law.
Sleepy,
"The law was broke, that's why the Police officer was there in the first place. Dont want to get shot by Police Jpee? Dont put yourself in a position to get shot by Police. Dont break the law."
What law was broke? Didn't threaten officers. Tried for four minutes to follow their phucked up "simon -sez" commands. He was scared, crying and confused. Those assholes made the decision to shoot long before the first shot was ever fired. Not really sure how you can condone the actions of those officers.
"Those assholes made the decision to shoot long before the first shot was ever fired"... BULL SHIT........
Big Bear is common as a cop in this type of situation to threaten to shoot someone as many times as the officer did? Just seemed strange to me.
Read my responses throughout this thread Rat.... I think I have clearly laid out my thoughts on what happened and feelings that it never should have ended that way. The responsible Officer was fired and I am not here to defend his actions......at all. But if anyone thinks all the Officers on the scene decided they were going to murder someone that day..... I disagree.....
Hate to second guess anyone in a LE position. But, once the girl was apprehended, if the bag was what they were afraid of they should have moved to separate the boy from the bag instead of making him crawl past it. The boy was scared. That's it. What he was scared of happened. A power hungry idiot police officer shot him. Just like he had threaded to do numerous times on the video before doing it. Appears to me to be a promise made to come true versus a threat.
I gotta agree with jdee. There is nothing in that video positive and there is nothing in that video that can be defended
Bear I didn't ask you to defend their actions. Just wondering if it's common to talk that way to someone.
It was way more common before body cams...... now Officers are usually a little more polite.
I don’t care how anyone reacts towards me here. That cop needs to be crucified Roman style. And I mean crucified.
There is no justifying that video at all. None at all.
Heads should roll over that and that cop should receive the death penalty. We fought Against the gestapo and SS. Anyone who believes that what I say is agaianst law enforcement needs to have their head examined. And sleepy, the whole, shouldn’t break the law? Exactly what laws will the cops be allowed to execute citizens for? Any of them??
That video was repulsive and disgusting. I stand by the belief that he needs to be crucified. Old school style. I’d be happy to pound the nails.
Ummm. DConcrete..... apparently a jury didn't agree with you.... He was acquitted...... He was fired.... and a 75 million law suit is pending.... I'm not here to defend him.....But a jury already acquitted him.
BB
"Those assholes made the decision to shoot long before the first shot was ever fired"... BULL SHIT........"
Really? Listen to their commands? They were itching to pull the trigger from the get go. The writing on the gun. Four minutes in, "suspect" still not restrained. The guy is crying, confused as hell, begging not to be shot.... And the blue line defends it.
Like I said, I'm flat out tired of defending this crap and you should be too. However in your own words...
"It is our job to teach the rookies not to do dumb shit like seen in that video...."
That' what you consider this. Dumb shit. Unbelievable. It's just dumb shit. Two out of control officers and a dead innocent and you still defend it.
Just out of curiosity, once prostrate, why make them move at all? Was LE trying gain distance from the door of the room?
A jury acquitted ed oj too.
And the illegal in California.
Don't judge the many by the actions of a few ....kinda like the NFL.
Matt
Matt,
I get what you're saying. And I have been staunch supporter and defender of LE for as long as I can remember. But this just flat out disgusts me and pisses me off. In November of 2015 a cop shot an unarmed man, in the back, on the ground, subdued, in Hummelstown, PA. It's about 15 miles from here. Cop was acquitted. How the hell do you acquit someone, a LEO, from shooting a subdued suspect, in the back, while on the ground?
As far as the actions of a few NFL players....they haven't resulted in the death of anyone.
Bowbender,
Ironically, one of the issues the NFL players are protesting is police brutality.
Matt
Spike,
"Being a cop is a tough enough job without having guys like these people carrying a shield and weapons working next to you."
Here's the thing.....My guess is, this is not the first, second, or third time these cops were outta line. It was excused, ignored, or covered up. Guaranteed.
I will say this: Although I am not LE it takes a certain person to do the job. I bet 90% of people that apply would not be able to take the BS, stress and split second life and death decisions that a job like that would require. I don’t envy them as it’s not a job I could do. In my 42 years I have seen a transition in a big percentage in our local law enforcement mentality. Maybe what I am trying to say is there is a feel of an “us versus them” mentality. Or “get em for something at all costs” attitude. That video was murder. Looked to me the officer wanted the outcome he got and created the tension to create it. Sad day my friends.
"Looked to me the officer wanted the outcome he got and created the tension to create it."
^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^
JTV, if that's what law enforcement is all about I never want to have a concept of it !! and saying it was a mistake is just candy ass stupid !! After watching that video I can now see where BLM is coming from and I was 100% against them before I did see it but after hearing some LEO's on here defend those gangbangers in blue I've switched sides. Murder.
Then don't break the law Jpee. Police aren't going anywhere.
Murder and it can happen to you and your kids too.
Of course jdee's all out call for murdering police men and women is startling and sad.
When these things come up I always start out on the side of law enforcement and go from there. I disagree that they had planned to shoot this guy from the outset - that too is BS, as Big Bear said.
In this situation I'm in the "unjustified" camp. This guy was totally subdued, doing everything he could to comply with unreasonable and inconsistent demands, threats of being shot if he "made a mistake". An officer with a cooler head could have easily recognized that he was not acting in a threatening manner at all.
From another perspective, that being LEO's getting killed by someone in their blind spot or someone appearing to comply then pulling a weapon from their pants (waist-band) I can see how the officers didn't want to approach this guy with an uncleared room behind him that may or may not have someone else in it, and when he kept reaching for his shorts (behind his back) could be seen as a threat.
That said, I think there were a lot of ways to handle this without anybody getting shot. The woman was already in custody and not a threat, the door to the room was closed. They could have easily determined that he was unarmed right where he was on the floor face-down, legs crossed palms on the floor. Making him crawl toward them and shooting him while he pulled up his shorts was their fault for not handling it better from the beginning.
Posting on the Bowsite and calling for the murder of Police Officers......... I think it's time I find somewhere else to hang out....... Peace....
If that video doesn’t bother everyone, people and police, then there are some serious wires not connected.
I simply do not care what a jury says, that cop is criminal. And if he wasn’t criminal, then why did he get fired later?
I have friends who are police officers and a surprising number of them do not support police state ambitions.
The video is blatant murder and abuse of power.
Sleepy, wake up buddy. “Don’t break the law” again I ask, which laws are they allowed to execute us for?
And yes I’ll state what some already have, mr policeman, you work for us. You chose that when you chose to be employed by the government.....US. Without US you don’t have a job nor money. The taxpayer is who keeps you employed. Along with revenue collections.
Most of my dealing with police have been great and yes there are some very bad apples. This guy is a pile of trash and the best thing anyone in law enforcement can do for them and their cause is to denounce this video immediately.
You don’t blindly support something simply because it’s on your side.
Have the balls to call it what it is. Have the balls to call your “brothers” out.
I know I call out anyone even if they are on my side.
Call them out. Call it what it is and stop with the nonsense.
Posting on the Bowsite and calling for the murder of Police Officers......... I think it's time I find somewhere else to hang out....... Peace....
Big Bear, if you decide to let some punk who is only here to stir sh!t make you leave, that's your call.
I for one like you here, and would rather not see you leave.
Stand your ground BB. I agree with AZ.
Let me get this right Big Bear, police murder a man and you're alright with that, the guy had pumped up cops with long guns screaming at him, he puts his hands on the floor because they were screaming for him to crawl so he tried to crawl and was shot dead..... When I learned to crawl it was hands and knees just like everyone else. I exercise my 1st amendment after watching a murder and you can't handle that. Guess everyone should ...just go along with it. Think you've been sucking down the Kool-Aid for way to long, the old brain has reached a point of no return. Police should be filling out accident reports and directing traffic not murdering people that are trying to comply.
jdee,
You do no know what you are talking about and to claim Big Bear is alright with this shooting only proves you have zero reading comprehension. Please take your anti-cop, pro killing cops agenda elsewhere, you are a pathetic excuse for a human being...
BB ain't goin' nowhere. He is too Big for that.
The Rock
He's not a pathetic excuse for a human being. He's an irritated human being. There is a difference. While BB did not condone the actions, understanding where jdee's feelings of rage and disgust are coming from should be easy as well.
For every one confused here, just imagine your son in that scenario. A kid basically. Scared, confused, contradicting commands being screamed at him while being threatened he was going to be shot. I realize he didn't handle it the best he could but, lets be flippin' honest, in that situation no one have handled it perfectly. Getting Screamed at to do different things, getting threatened while telling you these contradictions, trying to understand why this is happening, etc....
These officers screwed up and screwed up big time. If these kind of actions continue, where police officer's continue to make serious mistakes uncalled for, and continue to not respond quickly to citizens in stress, you had better believe that the court system is about to be run over with civil suits against them. I KNOW the job is tough. I KNOW every one wants to go home at the end of the shift. But, this ain't flipping burgers. nor did anyone that signs up to be a LE officer thinks it is. Protocol that leaves innocent citizens in jeopardy gives innocent citizens only one choice.
Sorry WV, I disagree 100%, this is what jdee wrote.
""I hope someone finds all of those cops sitting in their squad cars some night and shoots them all.""
He was not referring to the shooter or the clown yelling the commands ( the one who retired to the Philippines). He is referring to all of the cops who may have been there that night.
Murder, IMO. I witnessed nothing in that video that justified shooting that young man. It was plain as day he was scared and crying over the entire situation. He did his best to obey the officers commands in the high stress environment and they should have recognized that. I also think this is only of those cases where a guy really wants to shoot his gun and kill someone. I will stick up for LE normally and when the evidence is there, but this isnt one of those times.
This happened in Jan. 2016. The Officer that fired the shots was fired weeks later. If you think he got some sort of special treatment in the trial... I would disagree.... In fact... if anything .... I would think it would work against him if any of the jurors knew he had been fired... which I am certain the prosecutor introduced....... The single thing that got him acquitted was the tail end where the guy reached for his waistband.......... I am not being scared off from here..... I would just rather hang out somewhere that a guy isn't calling for the murder of Police Officers........
BB,
"The single thing that got him acquitted was the tail end where the guy reached for his waistband..."
Based on the officers testimony. Because the body-cam footage was not shown to the jury. I suspect had it been shown, he would be facing 12-25 for manslaughter.
I guess what bothers me most is your mind set to shrug it off because as you termed it it was officers doing "dumb shit." I am flat out tired of defending LE, giving the benefit of the doubt because it's a tough job... You guys need to stand up and shout from the rooftop ENOUGH!! Start weeding these assholes out. Your oath was to the public, not the thin blue line. Your job IS getting tougher because of crap like this.
I am leaning towards murder. Seams like a great time for one of the guys behind the camera to use a taser. Guy wasn’t doing what he was told but sounds like he was scared shitless and not thinking straight. It took him three tries to cross his left leg over his right.
Justified or Murder? Neither.
Juries are reluctant to convict police officers for acts committed in the line of duty. That doesn't mean this was a good shooting, When trained, you're taught to watch his hands, and the poor guy reached down to his belt. The problem is the instructions were so bad that he was doomed to failure.
I place most of the blame on the sergeant. The junior guy with the rifle can't tell him to stand down, as this is a paramilitary organization. And the shooter shot when the guy reached for his belt, which would be what was trained. We all recall the video a month ago where the fellow kept walking away from the officer until he pulled a handgun and shot the cop.
I'm not smart enough to know what was going through his head. It was not surprise me if the junior cop was as scared as the poor fellow who was shot. Not a murder, but a horribly bad shooting. Nobody wins here.
BK,
Why in the world was the video not allowed as evidence, if those claims are true?
Matt
I have no idea why it would not have been let in as evidence. It was certainly relevant. It may have indeed been prejudicial, but the standard is unfairly prejudicial, and this would have shown what actually happened.
It may have possibly, and I'm guessing here, been considered unfairly prejudicial against the shooter as he wasn't the one issuing the commands. But it also goes to his state of mind, because clearly the question the poor guy was shot was a given. The heart of the case goes to the state of mind, and the intent, of the shooter.
There would have been issues as to who would authenticate it, as one officer would probably not be testifying, and the other was not in the country as I understand things here. That's my only theory. Exhibits have to be authenticated by someone with first hand knowledge of their authenticity.
The good news, if there possibly could be any from this case, is that this case is an outlier at the very far end of the bell curve. The bad news is everything else about it. And the reaction by some, like "jdee," is appaling.
I'm just guessing here. I would have expected it to be let in as evidence, but if it was not, that's surprising to me, too.
Matt,
I am mistaken. Apologies. I misread an article where it said that the jurors were prohibited from seeing what the shooter had etched on the side of his gun which was “you’re fucked”. Misread and thought it referred to the video.
Still not sure how you can watch that video, and not convict on manslaughter. If it happened at the very beginning, yeah I could see an acquittal. But after 4 minutes of screaming simon-sez, telling a distraught gut he’s going to be shot and killed for the slightest mistake. After watching that video, I can no longer defend LE “just because”, well it’s LE.
I can see the inscription on the rifle not getting in. We did a sex assault trial in my first year, and the defendant's gang tattoos were not admitted as unfairly prejudicial. Likewise, the foolish inscription is probably unfairly prejudicial.
Bowbender,
No worries. That's why I qualified my question with "...if those claims are true."
I don't think you should defend anything "just because". That happens far to often, already. But, as I said earlier, I think it's equally disingenuous to judge all cops on the actions of a few a-holes.
In general, I've met two types of cops over the years. The vast majority have been decent guys who are genuinely interested in serving the public good. The others have been little pricks with small-man's disease, who chose their profession because it gives them a sense of power they wouldn't have without the gun and badge. I can usually tell which category they fall into just by the way they carry themselves.
Matt
I would agree with your assessment, Matt. I would also add that I'm sure that Big Bear is part of the former group, and someone we would all enjoy sharing a hunting camp with.
Agreed, BK. BB is definitely one of the good guys.
Matt
That was just sad. That guy didn't stand a chance with all those orders being barked at him under threat of being shot. Under those circumstances what can you do, scared out of you mind facing a scared cop with a rifle. Do you not comply and just lay there? On the video alone I would have convicted on manslaughter. Based on all the evidence, I don't know I would have to hear it.
Bowbender.... you have implied through the entire thread that I and other law enforcement officers are defending the FORMER Officer who pulled the trigger. I am not defending him. He was fired. Did I ever once say he was unjustly fired ? A jury acquitted him of murder charges.... Not me.......Read what Karma said carefully.... then read it again. He is an experienced attorney. And take into an account that someone in that hotel room was waving a gun out of the window.... and the guy that ended up getting shot was a .29 BAC..... Super drunk. Drunk enough not to know any better than to reach for his waistband when Police Officers were pointing guns at him. Still a bad shooting..... Which should have been avoided by CLEAR and CONCISE commands telling the suspect exactly what to do.
Oh and someone might as well start up another thread because I just saw another video released of a Police shooting in Florida....
I took a deep breath and reassessed my decision to leave here because of the calls to assasinate Police Officers by jdee..... I will ignore him like I have all other cop haters I've come across in 24 year on the job ..... I have been on the Bowsite since 1995..........
You want to see police abuse ? Search for the video of.... Robert Leone of Towanda, PA.
I wonder how that mans parents feel after watching cops murder their son in the video on here ? BB your reaction is par for the course for a cop, no big deal we just want to go home at the end of the day. Just like when cops are mauling a guy, beating him down 4,5 or 6 to one all the while yelling.... STOP RESISTING !! Like I said before, a school crossing guard could have done better. I really don't hate all cops, only the demented ones, the ones who beat and murder people. Yea, I do hate them.
Those of you that are suggesting Big Bear is doing something wrong need to read his post to Bowbender. This is a fellow trying to do things the right way, and who deserves the benefit of the doubt with his posts. When I did criminal defense, I always liked and respected the honest cops.
Case in point, In my first murder trial, the detective for Englewood was Tom Scheider, who has been retired now for a few years. He was thorough, professional and dead honest to a fault. He testified on direct examination for three hours as I recall. Cross examination was five minutes, just to clarify a couple of things. Everything he testified to was true and accurate. I get the impression BB is cut from the same cloth.
I had a case with an ATF agent that ended up trusting me enough to show me his disguises he wore at gun shows. And to this day, 22 years later, I'm not telling people how he did it, even though he's a long way from undercover work now.
Did anyone ever find the gun that was waved out the window?
From what I read it turned out to be a pellet gun. I was wondering if the guy actually broke any laws. Did he point the gun out the window? Or did someone just see a gun and call the police?
Factory rat...... The more pertinent question you should ask is how did the dispatched run come out ?? What did the 911 caller tell the Dispatcher ?? I'm sure that was a part of the trial. If the caller told the dispatcher that a man is waving a gun out of the window of the hotel room and/or the suspect pointed that gun at someone.... Then hence the Police would respond to the run with Patrol rifles..... They would have no idea that it actually was a pellet gun. A lot of pellet guns look just like real guns....
Bear I don't have a problem with how they responded to the run. It's more what they did after they got there that bothers me.
Yep..... It should have never ended that way.
I have waited and digested all the posts and viewed that video and audio second by second over and over again. What I have gleaned is not intended to demean LE as every situation is weighed upon its own merits, circumstances and evidence. Personally I believe this particular situation with evidence in tow casts a dark and ugly cloud and pall over these particular officers in this particular case. @ :10 of the video the male suspect had immediately dropped to the floor, hands raised BEFORE the officer ever addressed him. @ : 28 the officer says " Apparently we have a failure to comprehend simple instructions. I will go over them again". Try going over them the first time again. @ :40 " If you make ANOTHER mistake there is strong possibility that you are BOTH going to be shot". The first MISTAKE was never made. Misunderstanding? Maybe?..and why if he makes this "mistake" will I also be shot or visa versa. @ :51 The young woman, obviously frightened begins to talk and is told abruptly to "Shut Up! I am not here to be tactfully diplomatic with you". That may have helped and eased the already boiling climate. @ 2:05 "If you move WE are going to consider that a threat and WE are going to deal with it and you may not survive" Nobody can think and act for everyone...here things begin to move fast.... @ 3:59 The officer barking loudly " You do that again and WE are shooting you as the male suspect, crying, crosses his hands and places them behind his back then quickly places them overhead visibly shaken and confused. @ 4:10 The command is shouted, as the suspect kneels with hands perfectly erect in the air " Do not put your hands down for ANY reason". Bookmark this time frame. @ 4:20 The officer barks out the command "Crawl towards me". The male suspect places his arms and hands straight out and down on the floor and the officer is obviously content to allow him to crawl in this position despite the officers previous command "Do not put your hands down for ANY reason". The officer who warned the suspects with physical harm by making a mistake, made a mistake, one of many himself. The officer barks loudly again "Crawl towards me". The male suspect crying and visibly disjointed says "I am Sir" and continues crawling. @ 4:24 The male suspect in a crawling position looking at the floor places his right hand on his right pant side and brings it forward. @ 4:25 The male suspects EMPTY hand is in crystal clear view as he attempts to place it on the floor. @ 4:26 The male suspect is fired upon five (5) times with intent other than to disable at close range.
NOTE: The officer in question and accused was terminated for various policy violations which was with held from the court proceedings and also with held was why he had access afterwards to the evidence of the case. BB, I would hope you know where I stand as far as supporting LE and believe you to be above the action these officers had taken from the very beginning to end in this particular case. I do not know you well enough but have made my conclusions from the weight and direction of your many posts here. To those who believe this was a travesty of justice I agree with that sentiment and can understand your apprehension of faith of LE, especially if you may have had a other than positive experience personally. There seems to be an exorbitant number of these suspicious and criminal actions by LE across the country presently which does not sit well with the public when another, such as this case arises with overwhelming video evidence. The few afflicted can trample the many well meaning of any profession. The unwarranted call for LE to be shot in their cars is criminal in itself to gain personal relief for a tragedy and to anger a public on the brink to commit such a horrific act. No room here or anywhere promoting such instigation.
The Rock
Rock.... I don't disagree with anything you said.... Let's not forget though that hundreds and hundreds of these types of arrests are made without incident across America each and every day.... The majority of them are now captured on camera. I myself have been in that situation probably a hundred or 200 times... Officers that work in cities like Detroit..... maybe daily... And yet I have never fired my duty weapon at anyone in the line of duty.... and I'd like to keep it that way..... For 2 years and 360 more days....
My last post.....Had a long post written and deleted most of it. After that video, I will never, ever look at LE in the same light again. Add in the fact the LEO's on here dance around calling it "unjust" and "he was fired" as though that makes it OK. It doesn't. The equivocating makes it look like you're defending the system that allows this to happen. At the least it was manslaughter. Yeah I'm sure the jury heard the the whole split second decision and the LEO's want to go home at night. Guess what? So do the citizens you swore to protect. I said it once and I'll say it again. Your oath is to the citizenry, NOT the blue line.
Again, four minutes, five officers present, and the guy crying, confused, pleading not to be shot, is still trying to follow the simon-sez commands, instead of being cuffed in the first minute. This wasn't "dumb shit", this wasn't "an unjustified shooting", it was manslaughter and they got away with it.
Where did I say the whole outcome of the incident was OK with me Bowbender ?? You're problem with it is the outcome of the trial..... not with my view of what happened... I'm not here swearing to protect him behind any blue line. Screw him... he got fired. He deserved it... If he was found guilty I wouldn't be here arguing the verdict.... Please direct your disdain at him.... and the verdict of the jury.....
I watched the video again today with my son. Something I missed the 1st time and Rocky missed in his second by second account was after dropping to his knees and the female was cleared, he actually puts BOTH of his hands behind his back at the 3:50 mark without being told to do so for about 2 seconds. I thought that move was more egregious then the "fatal" mistake he made before the shooting started.
My disdain IS for him, the jury....... and for those that do the two step and can't call it for what it is.
Chuckster, No Rocky did not. Read my post again and you will see I mentioned this if you really want to see it, and it was not for 2 seconds as I watched the video and countdown in slow motion multiple times. It was for a split second if that. He placed his crossed hands behind his back and the officer screamed and he immediately placed them in front and then straight up. Get a grip. Check out 3:59 on my post.
The Rock
I have a lot of respect for police officers, but this guy should never have been wearing a badge. What an idiot. Unfortunately these are the videos that get the publicity, I don't think it represents the majority of law enforcement. I'm not a police officer but I know some personally and this guy was out of line. I think he should be charged with murder.
Bowbender..... And I'm slightly offended that you come on here and insinuate that I don't fully commit to upholding my oath to protect the citizens of the city I work in. Not too long ago I was involved in a chase of a bank robber that had robbed about 5 banks in multiple cities. He was driving bat shit crazy with about 10 scout cars chasing him. I was ahead of the chase and when it got up to me another Officer from another jurisdiction was out of his car putting out stop sticks to try to stop him. Those things are very dangerous to get out of your car and deploy. There was a Deputy killed in the line of duty here in a separate incident when a suspect intentionally ran him over while he was deploying them. Anyways... this bank robber went up onto lawns to go around the stop sticks at a very high rate of speed. So I intentionally drove my car in position to let him T Bone me...... for one reason alone..... so he didn't run another red light and kill someone..... I have 24 years worth of stories of serving my City honorably.... You sir are out of line insinuating that I don't put my oath to serve my city first and foremost..... I strap on a bullet proof vest every day and risk my life to do it. And so do my brother and sister Officers. If you were ever in the military then you know that the men and women you train with and go to battle with become your brothers and sisters.... I make no apologies for that.
BB,
I appreciate what you do. Really, I do. You do for the most part, a thankless, difficult dangerous job. So let me be very clear. Thank you.
My issue, is that even now, you cannot call out this officer as a murderer. You make it clear that those you serve with are your brothers/sisters. Those officers are NOT your brothers. They give the entire LE community a black eye and you should be as pissed as those on receiving end of this crap. As I've stated previously, if Shaver's had been shot for reaching to his waistband 30 seconds into the video, yeah I could see that. But four minutes in, five officers on the scene and he is still not restrained...crying and pleading not to be shot. It should turn your stomach. Getting fired and the city being sued for $75M is not justice or getting what he deserved. What I want to hear from LE, is that this was a travesty of justice and the bastard(s) should be behind bars. And the failure by LE to do so is what drives me and quite a few others to maintain the stance silence IS defending the blue line.
You don't know me. I know me. I can consider my fellow officers my brothers and sisters and still serve my community to 100% of my ability... The guy in that video is not my brother. He is an ex Police Officer... Just like the Inkster Mi Ex Officer who is in prison where he belongs right now for a violent beating caught on tape of a motorist....... My wife would tell you that I am an honest good man.... who pulled an elderly man out of his car after suffering a heart attack a few months ago. He was dead. I started CPR on the side of the road while many citizens looked on....all concerned...... We do not do mouth to mouth any more.... only chest compressions as per our latest CPR training... I gave the man mouth to mouth breaths because that is they way I was taught for most of my career and I thought that would give him a better chance to survive..... At the hospital they shocked him back to life. I couldn't believe it because CPR rarely works..... I've had to do it on little kids that drowned in pools....and it didn't work. I saw the man breathing on his own with a heartbeat for 5-10 minutes.... but they lost him. I watched them shock him back to life 2 more times. I teared up and told God that I would go back to church if he would only bring him back. He died. I caught some grief from other Officers that said we aren't required to do mouth to mouth anymore... certainly without a CPR barrier mask.... and risk disease transmission... I didn't have time to find a barrier mask in my car. All I could think about was doing anything I can to help that man......
Thanks Kevin... you too... I'm off until Jan 22nd because I just had back surgery yesterday on 2 herniated discs... It's giving me a little taste of retirement......
In 2 years and 360 days.... They can call someone else to go and take pictures at a scene where a mother sat her infant in the car seat on the ground behind her car while loading up her other kids.... Then accidentally backed over the baby killing it............
They can send someone else out when a lady calls 911 screaming because her husband is in the garage committing suicide by shoving a power drill into his temple and neck time after time. Some other Officers can rush up the driveway to get him to stop... while he hurries to do it one more time before they get to him.....
Some other Officers can respond to the 2 year old that crawled out into the street under a furniture delivery truck and got squashed like a grape when the unknowing driver left...... Or when a high school student crosses the street in front of the school in the morning and gets hit by a car and killed.....
Suicides and SIDS deaths and elderly people who die in their home alone with no relatives or friends... and are only discovered after they are decomposing because the mail has been piling up for months....
Nope.... in 2 years and 360 days it will be someone else's job..... I'll be retired....
It sucks that murdering bastards like this guy make your job that much harder BB. Thanks for your service and wishing you a speedy recovery.
They don't pay you guys NEAR enough BB. I have a friend who's been at it about as long as you have and he too is counting the days.
BB, that's what LEO's sign up to do , it is all part of the job, has been since we first had LEO's in this country. What those cops in Phoenix did is what is wrong. It doesn't matter how many people a guy has saved or how much death they have seen no cop has the right to murder anyone just because his job has been full of bad things. When it gets to be to much or he starts believing he is the ultimate authority they need to get out ! I have seen my share of mayham and death too, it might not have been on an American street but a bloody death is a bloody death and IMHO that guy did not need to die that night in that motel hallway.
He was in the wrong line of work from the start....
Big Bear, question for you. How much training do our LEOs get to deal with situations like you see above?
We are blessed to have a great tactical training center here near NOLA called VATA Group. I take about a half a dozen classes a year (pistol, carbine, shotgun, etc) and the class is usually made up of half civilians and half LEO. You would expect the LEOfolks to be the most proficient in handling weapons, but it's clear that quite a few are what I would call average at best. Then you stop and think about it and realize that the average officer probably hasn't had to use his weapon that much on the job.
You throw in a potential threat, a lot of stress, and layer in the fact that certain folks probably don't have much experience in diffusing these situations and are likely not the most confident/proficient with their weapons and it doesn't surprise me some questionable decisions get made. That said, I always tend to initially default to the side of the LEOs as they do have to make some very difficult decisions in these situations and I believe they generally trying to do their best.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how equipped LEOs typically are to deal with these types of incidents, mentally and physically speaking? Seems to me that folks on the tactical units get a lot of training to deal with this type of stuff, but your "average" officer might not?
That's pretty spot on....at least at my department... our SWAT guys train all the time.... at least once or twice a month and for a week-10 days in the summer......
But our average road Officers usually get scenario type training once a year... we do active shooter training mainly these days.... and of course firearms training .... The guys straight out of the academy and the Field Training Officer program have recently had a lot of training...But training does not come close to replacing experience...... The first time a young Officer is involved in a felony arrest on say a stolen car..... His adrenaline is through the roof.... I remember.......... but after you've been there a hundred times.... You learn to control your adrenaline.....
And there is the human factor..... Cops are regular people.... some of them never even handled a weapon before the academy.... Most who make it through the FTO program can handle the day to day stress of the job..... some can't.... much like the military.
Have any of you seen the video where 2 armed men in full body armor walked in to the Dearborn Mi Police Lobby ?? Maybe someone can post it here. I suck with computers... It happened I believe shortly after an armed man walked into the lobby of our Department and committed suicide by cop... but not before shooting my friend in the shoulder. He survived and is now a retired Sgt.
And maybe someone can do me a favor and post here the video of the shooting in the Detroit Police Lobby. Thanks in advance...
2 officers were shot in Jackson,MS months ago. I bet you didn't much about it on the national news. I drove for a living for 22 years, I had only a handful of negative encounters with law enforcement.
Too bad the media don't report all the positive things officers do.
I have two brothers in LE, both of them think that this POS committed murder and should get the needle or at least life. He shot an unarmed man in a controlled situation with multiple able bodied officers available to assist him or vice versa. He should have been cuffed and stuffed in 1 minute, not dead after 4 minutes. LEO's have a tough, tough job that I wouldn't want to do, and they don't make near enough money for the crap and scrum of the earth the have to deal with, But Murder is Murder, Badge or Not!
I still don't think this is murder. Nor do I think it is justified. The problem I have with the case is that the bad actor was the sergeant. The shooter had to make a split second decision when the poor fellow's hand went toward his belt. You don't know if that's to fix a wedgie or to pull a 25 auto. And if you guess wrong, either way, you're in trouble. The only person you can take to trial is the shooter but did he commit murder, or make an error in judgment? That would be a tough question for a jury but having gotten an acquittal, I tend to give the jury the benefit of the doubt. 12 people unanimously agreed to acquit him.
Our system of justice is not perfect. In today's twitter feeding frenzy of outrage culture, people lose perspective that no system is perfect, and the system is designed for error on the side of the defendant. That beats the living hell out of systems where innocent unless proven guilty is the norm. (Correction: Guilty until proven innocent, thanks HDE.) I don't know if the prosecution charged manslaughter or not, but it was a judgment call as to whether to do so. The defense could have asked for manslaughter as a lesser included offense, but may not have wanted to give the jury an easy way out. Tactically, on a hard case like this one, the smart move for the defense would likely have been to reject any lesser includeds, gambling that the jury wouldn't think it went to the level of a first degree murder. Remember, 20 minutes before this shooting, they didn't know anything about this.
Not all homicides are murders. Nor should all homicides be punished. I don't know where the point is that justice could be served in this case. But it's not at either of the two extremes in the title.
BK - don't you mean it beats the hell out of guilty until proven innocent?
Yes, I do, thank you HDE.
Karma... I saw a story on line that said that Brailsford was acquitted of murder and wrongful manslaughter....
What I didn't realize before reading that story is that Shaver was reportedly pointing a rifle out the window of the hotel room.... and 2 pellet rifles were recovered in the room. That makes it look even worse for Brailford...... Shaver obviously didn't have a rifle in the hallway.... Could he have also had a pistol.... yes but that is not what was reported by the 911 caller.
Shavers poor widow.... Not only was her husband killed... but he was killed on a business trip where he picked up a woman and was highly intoxicated in his hotel room with her and apparently was showing off his pellet rifles he used in his pest control business.... Pointing a rifle out a hotel window is most likely going to generate a 911 call after Las Vegas......
No matter what circumstances led to the encounter in the hallway...... It was horrific how it was handled and never should have ended with anyone's death.
"It was horrific how it was handled and never should have ended with anyone's death."
But it did..... With zero consequences. I don't consider being fired for a non related incident to be justice. And the fact the the city is being sued, only places the burden ultimately on the taxpayer.
We've gone round and round with this...... and nothing is going to change.... He was charged with murder and tried for murder. Your beef is with the jury..... understandably.....
Michael Slager.... the fired South Carolina Officer charged with murder.... Is going to prison for 20 years. In my opinion... that case was much more clear cut.
IMO justice was in no way imaginable served in this case; the video is proof positive including audio which further demonstrates the state of mind of all those present. A man in a crawling position in locomotion in a 3 point stance whose balance is compromised, crying and begging for his life. His hand, perfectly clear and empty as it moves forward from the rear in a short sleeve shirt and proceeds to be shot 5 times from approximately 15 ft. from an officer in tactical gear, with back up in place. The shooter's mindset was without a doubt, shoot to kill, not disarm, not to disable but with malicious and unwarranted abandon, foreknowledge in place of the unquestionable results of a 5 shot tap from a weapon of this caliber. Foreknowledge in place. Is there any question the results of his action upon this suspect with this weapon from this distance on a yielding cowering suspect could have rendered any other possible outcome. Absolutely not. That is premeditation of an absolute certainty of the results that would have be decided long before the first shot. This officer knew well in advance the capability and power of that weapon. Another question that I would find difficult to believe would be if the shooter was the only one to be covering this suspect with a weapon. I seriously doubt he was the only one but somehow he is the only one to have shot under such a believable imminent threat of his life and fellow officers. The best possible defense for this man to be acquitted, albeit with a bad taste for his actions, would have been if one or more of the attending officers covering the suspect had also shot. That act could have given relief to the mindset of the shooter in question. The only officer charged apparently negates that possibility but not the question of which the video leaves no doubt. I am simply overcome and disturbed by this video which only serves to heighten the deep seated mistrust and hatred for LE everywhere, unjustly, which personally goes without saying in my home. Unfortunately all LE do not live here and they must bear the brunt of another maverick gone astray. I would be hesitant to call him brother but that is not my call.
The Rock
That's a good point Rock. The other Officers in that hallway didn't shoot. In a shoot/ don't shoot situation.... they clearly made the correct decision..... Yet one poster here called for them to be murdered....
To me the weapon the Officer used is a mute point.... the results would have been the same if he fired his .40 Cal Glock 5 times....
He's not my brother and neither is Michael Slager.. nor the Inkster Mi Officer who is in prison.
The Officer was horrible and the team could have had him cuffed easily. The Officer that did the shooting even debated with another Officer saying, "no, you aren't clear." Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The guy was crying and scared, innocent and in HIS mind, not aware of Officers fears.
Concerning our professions we each kiss our wives and children goodbye in the morning never knowing what fate that day may hold. Most expect to see their loved again and the warmth, comfort and smiling eyes of their children and of their embrace at the end of the day. This, speaking for myself is why I live. There are however chosen professions whereby a morning kiss and hug from your child may be the last embrace, every morning or evening of your life reliving an uncertain future for them. I am not capable nor worthy to describe the monumental pressure and stress that this daily possibility could place upon the mental attitude and preparation of those such a LE or Firemen to name a few. The danger every second is real, not imagined and once engaged in a life or death situation is anything but cinematic as shown on media. Decisions of outcome, consequences of guilt or "should have", self preservation and duty sworn will instantly dictate the future of everything you hold dear, everything built for your future and everything that could easily be razed in a blink. I would be rejected for a position such as this immediately in the attempt to conceal my personal knowledge of faults when placed under such duress. I know and realize my shortcomings engaged in such a profession, content and comfortable to leave those who choose and who are chosen, being the strong and capable for the most part, to carry that mental and physical weight.
God Bless those who walk into this danger daily for the public good and count the days till their "parole".
The Rock
Murderer??? Chicken sh!t pos for sure. Note to self: Cop points a gun at me, shut up and don’t move.
Dumbasses like that guy with semi auto rifles is why America can never ban semi auto rifles from the public ....no matter how little use I see in owning one.
That’s the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.
Disgusting to watch. I thought the guy did pretty well following his confusing commands. Apparently not well enough.