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Opioid Addiction and Responsibility
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Contributors to this thread:
JL 21-Dec-17
Mike B 21-Dec-17
70lbdraw 21-Dec-17
bad karma 21-Dec-17
elkmtngear 21-Dec-17
buckhammer 21-Dec-17
Pig Doc 21-Dec-17
Factory rat 21-Dec-17
BIG BEAR 21-Dec-17
Rocky 21-Dec-17
Ron Niziolek 21-Dec-17
Pig Doc 21-Dec-17
Glunt@work 21-Dec-17
slade 21-Dec-17
bad karma 21-Dec-17
Bob H in NH 22-Dec-17
kentuckbowhnter 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
Pig Doc 22-Dec-17
slade 22-Dec-17
JL 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
Pig Doc 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
Factory rat 22-Dec-17
Woods Walker 22-Dec-17
KsRancher 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
jjs 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
Mike B 22-Dec-17
Rocky 22-Dec-17
DL 22-Dec-17
BIG BEAR 22-Dec-17
DL 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
Woods Walker 22-Dec-17
JL 22-Dec-17
K Cummings 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
Grey Ghost 22-Dec-17
DL 22-Dec-17
DL 22-Dec-17
Woods Walker 22-Dec-17
Rocky 22-Dec-17
Pig Doc 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
Ron Niziolek 22-Dec-17
JL 22-Dec-17
Pig Doc 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
Pig Doc 22-Dec-17
DL 22-Dec-17
Owl 22-Dec-17
Mike B 22-Dec-17
Factory rat 22-Dec-17
KsRancher 22-Dec-17
Mike B 22-Dec-17
HA/KS 22-Dec-17
HA/KS 22-Dec-17
Rocky 22-Dec-17
IdyllwildArcher 23-Dec-17
Owl 23-Dec-17
K Cummings 23-Dec-17
Pig Doc 23-Dec-17
Rocky 23-Dec-17
Kevin Dill 23-Dec-17
BIG BEAR 23-Dec-17
Rocky 23-Dec-17
BIG BEAR 23-Dec-17
HA/KS 23-Dec-17
Rocky 23-Dec-17
Pig Doc 24-Dec-17
HA/KS 24-Dec-17
Rocky 24-Dec-17
Kevin Dill 24-Dec-17
Pig Doc 24-Dec-17
Spike Bull 26-Dec-17
Factory rat 26-Dec-17
JL 26-Dec-17
Rocky 26-Dec-17
Stalker 26-Dec-17
Brotsky 26-Dec-17
gflight 26-Dec-17
WV Mountaineer 26-Dec-17
Mint 26-Dec-17
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Bowbender 26-Dec-17
slade 26-Dec-17
70lbdraw 26-Dec-17
HA/KS 26-Dec-17
Woods Walker 26-Dec-17
Sage Buffalo 27-Dec-17
Mad dog 27-Dec-17
JL 27-Dec-17
K Cummings 27-Dec-17
gflight 27-Dec-17
gflight 27-Dec-17
elkmtngear 27-Dec-17
WV Mountaineer 27-Dec-17
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Rocky 27-Dec-17
elkmtngear 27-Dec-17
CAS_HNTR 28-Dec-17
bad karma 28-Dec-17
Annony Mouse 28-Dec-17
BIG BEAR 28-Dec-17
DL 28-Dec-17
BIG BEAR 28-Dec-17
gflight 28-Dec-17
Rocky 28-Dec-17
K Cummings 28-Dec-17
WV Mountaineer 28-Dec-17
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Mike B 29-Dec-17
Rocky 29-Dec-17
Mike B 29-Dec-17
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K Cummings 29-Dec-17
HA/KS 29-Dec-17
WV Mountaineer 29-Dec-17
slade 06-Jan-18
Mike B 06-Jan-18
HA/KS 06-Jan-18
Woods Walker 06-Jan-18
Rocky 06-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 07-Jan-18
K Cummings 07-Jan-18
Mike B 07-Jan-18
TGbow 07-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 07-Jan-18
HA/KS 07-Jan-18
Rocky 07-Jan-18
K Cummings 12-Jan-18
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slade 12-Jan-18
K Cummings 12-Jan-18
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Mike B 12-Jan-18
HA/KS 12-Jan-18
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Mike B 16-Jan-18
Woods Walker 16-Jan-18
HA/KS 16-Jan-18
Buckiller 17-Jan-18
bad karma 17-Jan-18
Rocky 17-Jan-18
MT in MO 17-Jan-18
Woods Walker 17-Jan-18
Rocky 17-Jan-18
MT in MO 17-Jan-18
Atheist 17-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 17-Jan-18
SteveD 17-Jan-18
Rocky 17-Jan-18
K Cummings 18-Jan-18
Rocky 18-Jan-18
slade 18-Jan-18
K Cummings 18-Jan-18
Mint 18-Jan-18
orionsbrother 18-Jan-18
K Cummings 18-Jan-18
slade 18-Jan-18
Rocky 18-Jan-18
orionsbrother 18-Jan-18
Hawkarcher 19-Jan-18
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K Cummings 19-Jan-18
SteveD 19-Jan-18
bad karma 19-Jan-18
Rocky 19-Jan-18
Rocky 19-Jan-18
Bowbender 19-Jan-18
Rocky 19-Jan-18
Rocky 19-Jan-18
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Rocky 19-Jan-18
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K Cummings 19-Jan-18
Hawkarcher 19-Jan-18
orionsbrother 19-Jan-18
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K Cummings 19-Jan-18
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Rocky 20-Jan-18
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Rocky 21-Jan-18
slade 21-Jan-18
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WV Mountaineer 21-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 22-Jan-18
K Cummings 22-Jan-18
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slade 22-Jan-18
Mike B 28-Jan-18
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HA/KS 30-Jan-18
K Cummings 30-Jan-18
HA/KS 31-Jan-18
Hawkarcher 01-Feb-18
From: JL
21-Dec-17
I was listening to a local radio show today and the subject was opioid addiction and who should pay for the addict's treatment. If I understood it correctly, in Michigan, some counties are jumping on the bandwagon of a new lawsuit against drug companies. The suit alleges they are responsible for the costs associated with addiction and treatment.

So the question is.....who, if anyone....should pay for an opioid addict's treatment and care?

From: Mike B
21-Dec-17
I'm sure as hell no lawyer, but the first question that comes to my mind is: Did the manufacturer have knowledge of the addiction potential of the drug, and if so, did they communicate this risk to the FDA prior to the drugs approval, and did they also advise the patient of the serious risk of addiction at the time it was prescribed.

I do not believe prescription opioid addicts want to be addicts, nor did they (in most cases) set out to become addicts. Once addicted and using higher dosages, it's either take the drugs or they get very, very sick. It's sure as hell not the way I'd want to live my life.

I've never taken an opioid, and asked my doctors not to prescribe them and give me a non-opioid instead. IMO unless it's for long-term, excruciating pain, the "juice ain't worth the squeeze". Just ain't worth the risk.

From: 70lbdraw
21-Dec-17
A friend of mines son had surgery when he was 22. They pumped him full of opioids for pain. Long story short...he died of a heroin overdose 3 years later.

His fault?... Possibly. Fault of careless doctors giving them to a young man that doesn't truly need that much painkiller?...more likely.

A lot of young folks suffer the same demise while searching to "feed the need" after using them for pain.

From: bad karma
21-Dec-17
It's your responsibility not to overuse or abuse the drugs. If you buy a bottle of Jack Daniels, who is responsible if you drink the whole bottle in an hour and drive your car? The distillery or you?

Some people are predisposed to addiction. Plenty of folks use opiods without being addicted. I was given 30 Percocet after a hernia surgery. I took 2, and have kept the rest for accidents. I still have about half left after many years.

From: elkmtngear
21-Dec-17
Liberals are quick to push the narrative, that opioid addiction is a "disease", thereby removing the addict from responsibility.

The logical argument is, that other diseases, such as diabetes, are not compensated for, and their management has to be paid for out of pocket.

The left needs to come up with a more creative argument...and with that, let the dumbassery ensue !

From: buckhammer
21-Dec-17
In todays world it is always somebody else's fault.

From: Pig Doc
21-Dec-17
IMO addiction is not a disease, it's an ongoing series of bad choices. Name one other disease that can be cured simply by changing behavior. I agree with BK here - the person making the bad choices is responsible for the consequences.

21-Dec-17
As far as lawsuits go over opioids look up purdue pharma vs u.s.

From: BIG BEAR
21-Dec-17
Who pays for treatment for alcoholism ??

From: Rocky
21-Dec-17
Morphine used during the WW's created drug addicts in alarming numbers. I do not blame the soldiers as the human condition to relieve pain also reveals its own psychological weakness. I had total rotating platform knee replacement in 2008 and rehab was a absolute killer. My surgeon prescribed Percocet after a rather pointed skull session into the use and capabilities of this opioid both physical and psychological. Percocet is a wonder drug for intention but lurking behind the medication is the devil himself who cut a deal long ago exposing the weakness of man.The side effect of incredible "well being" can easily break the willpower of many people because that desired sensation sits right on the shelf always within reach. Those afflicted and addicted to this monster has ruined many a good man and woman. We should be held accountable for our own decisions no doubt. I do not however believe a otherwise clean living productive citizen who gets caught in a well concealed bear trap is alone in accountability. Percocet most certainly has its place in pain management but with the information now public and available of its power beyond medicinal purposes one should heed the warnings. They are real and darkness could very well await you, easily superseding the original intention of the prescription to kill pain, creating tenfold agony. Avoid them at all costs if possible.

The Rock

From: Ron Niziolek
21-Dec-17
I think Pig Doc nailed it. Addiction is pretty much a matter of choice. I've been in 2 horrible car wrecks, had 20+ surgeries and live with Chronic pain. I do take Hydrocodone, an opiate. It definitely helps. A couple of years ago, I found myself taking more pills than I used to. It was a gradual process. I recognized it and tapered off to the minimal amount I could take and still have some relief and quality of life. I still believe it's a choice but for some people, maybe it's too difficult.

From: Pig Doc
21-Dec-17
Similar experience here Ron. I used to drink, a lot. A highly trained expert on addiction diagnosed me as an alcoholic. Of course he wanted $25K to cure my "disease". The next day I quit drinking. I quit for a year and now I have an occasional drink or glass of wine. I changed my behavior and am healthier and happier because of it.

From: Glunt@work
21-Dec-17
My addiction to hunting has cost me jobs, relationships, money and physical injury. Should the wildlife departments be sending me a check since thats who I bought the licenses from? Often they encouraged me to hunt and never told me it could be addicting.

From: slade
21-Dec-17
I am with BK, both knees replaced in 2016, still have hydrocodone for emergency's, I have a high tolerance to it and It makes me wired so I didn't take much. Just had biceps tenodesis (relocate bicep tendon) on by String arm, this time we tried dilaudid ,same results keeps me wired, up for hours and hours until exhausted then sleep hard. I have no idea how someone could go thru that nightmare day after day.

From: bad karma
21-Dec-17
And, BB, of course, either we pay for individually, or we share the risk with insurance. Or we enter a free program like the Salvation Army program.

The more we replace individual responsibility with collective responsiblity, the further we get from the Constitution and the more society will decay.

From: Bob H in NH
22-Dec-17
It's no more the fault of the drug company that gun violence is the fault of the gun industry. The addict chose to keep taking, in some cases the doctor needs some accountability, but bottom line, unless someone is pumping it into you without your consent, it's on you.

22-Dec-17
i choose not to take heroin or pop pills, my choice, if i did and it caused a problem then my responsibility.

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
From my perspective, addiction is a disease. To say addiction is a matter of choice is both entirely true and, yet, so superficial as to be irrelevant. But genetic (or epigenetic) predisposition misses the point. Much like the "born this way" argument for homosexuality misses the point. We are all born with weaknesses. However, that mere fact does not relieve the personal responsibility we have to overcome the various manifestations of the maladies we possess or, frankly, nurture.

From: Pig Doc
22-Dec-17
Not much of a disease when you can cure yourself by setting a bottle down. It's not genetic, it's not communicable, it's not caused by aging or exposure to toxins. It does not fit the definition of a disease. Wish all diseases were that simple to cure. Addiction became a disease when an industry was born to profit from curing it.

From: slade
22-Dec-17
Unfortunately many do not put the bottle down, due to mental illness, the pain meds help mask.

From: JL
22-Dec-17
So....who should pay for the treatment? The addict, the drug company, the taxpayer, the insurance company or ???

I think intent comes into consideration here. Did someone suffer a legit injury and became hooked that way? Or did non-injury, intentional abuse the cause for addiction? Keep in mind heroin and other hard drugs falls into this category.

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
"Not much of a disease when you can cure yourself by setting a bottle down."

-Managing a disease is not curing a disease. By your rationale, a person can "cure" diabetes. But we all know the instant they go back to shoveling sugar, they re-engage the disease. Likewise, a "cured" alcoholic would be able to knock back a few during happy hour every day without the potential of a looming crisis.

" It's not genetic, it's not communicable," - Many diseases are epigenetic (environmental, exposure oriented) in nature.

"it's not caused by aging or exposure to toxins."-Except, using your example, alcohol is toxic.

-Definitely a disease. Marked by physical, mental and biochemical maladaptations. The fact that addictions can be managed by behavioral changes is great news. We'll agree there.

From: Pig Doc
22-Dec-17
Definitely not a disease and I have extensive training in what disease is and also in depth personal experience in addiction.

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
For the record, I should have specified "Type II diabetes." Type I is not a behavior-linked disease like Type II.

22-Dec-17
I'm all for personal responsibility and I understand that no one forced drugs on anyone. But if you don't think that pharmaceutical companies and some doctors share some responsibility you're not paying attention.

From: Woods Walker
22-Dec-17
What this has shown me is that you shouldn't take whatever a doctor says as 100% perfect advice. I now question ANY medication that's prescribed to me. I want to know all the risks and possible long term effects.

From: KsRancher
22-Dec-17
I generally don't get in the middle of discussions like this. But anybody that thinks addiction is a disease really needs their head examined. That one really hits close to home to me saying that it is a disease. End of discussion

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
WWx2. Doctors are good at treating acute problems and medicating chronic symptoms. Hardly paragons of healthy living, however. With the medication phenomena, I believe its a case of the hammer seeing the world as a nail.

I recall going to a doctor for my rotator cuff to get a referral for an orthopedist. While in the office, he offered, at least, 3 times to prescribe pain pills. "No thank you," I said the first time. "I don't do pain pills. The pain is not that bad," I said the second time. The 3rd time I said, "No matter what you prescribe, I will not take it." I definitely got the impression he was pushing a 'script for the sake of writing the 'script.

From: jjs
22-Dec-17
This is a very personal issue with me, I've been on oxycontin for awhile for pain management for a nerve disease and it is the only Rx that will control it and let me do my job (self-employed for almost 30 yrs). Now I have to go to a Special Pain Clinic to grovel for the meds, I have been on every anti-convulsant drug and do not do well on them at all. Just take a relative small dose to keep the pain level down so I can function, ask the dr what they do back in the old days for this crap I have he said they either over doze or used a .44 cal. It really piss me off when I hear about this and what it is doing at the cost to the the ones that need it. It will be coming to an end for long term pain management and know looking at doing a spinal cord stimulation for management if that doesn't work and he Rx are DC it will probably be the .44 cal.

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
Maybe for the sake of a proper discussion, we should agree on what constitutes a disease. And for the ranks claiming particular insight due to personal experience, I'll throw my hat in that ring.

From: Mike B
22-Dec-17
Some good points being made, but also many generalizations that may or may not be valid.

Human bodies are not always the same..some folks (due to whatever reason) may find themselves being addicted to the opiates sooner than others. Why? Who the hell knows, but good people who haven't the slightest intention of becoming addicted some how wind up that way. I've read many stories about people who were prescribed opiates as part of an injury recovery and ended up addicted to the them, and that is when a choice must be made by the user to seek help in getting off them, or they continue to buy on the black market in order to stave off the horrid withdrawal's.

And once addicted, you either continue to take the opiate, suffer the misery of not taking it, or go through a medically supervised withdrawal and get clean, never to touch it again.

There is no easy way out, so it really comes down to the character of the addicted individual, and the access they have to the medical care needed to get off the meds.

From: Rocky
22-Dec-17
Mike B,

You hit the nail squarely on the head. If anyone here or elsewhere believes they can withstand any pain, no matter the intensity without medication you are in for a big surprise. Likewise to say I am in extreme pain but refuse to take my prescription is ludicrous. When a doctor properly prescribes an opiate what he does not know or will ever know is who secretly lives inside you, your willpower and your constitution to be able to manage the lure of the immediate comfort the medication it provides. Very easy to say I will allow myself to be addicted much like the gentle accountant we read about who one day wipes out his entire family and in the same breath his neighbors are saying he was the greatest person in the world. They obviously did not know him or see it coming and with opiates neither will you. Don't ever believe you are so tough to just say I am done and stop cold. Can be done with opiates but Samson himself will have a tough time arm wrestling those few people. Emptying the bottle down the sink and doing the same with a bottle of pills that instantly relieve your pain and "physce" are two completely different animals. You don't want to be there to test those choppy waters. Steer clear from the beginning. There are many non-narcotic prescriptions for pain. Take that route first and chew on a stick if necessary. Do not challenge your willpower against opiates. The odds are heavily in their favor.

The Rock

From: DL
22-Dec-17
I have had 24 surgeries. 2 spine surgeries and three knee replacements. I put off my first spine surgery for decades and got to the point that I could hardly walk at times. I was scared of having my back operated on. I found out what prolonged extreme pain can do to your brain. I won’t do into it other than it practically ruined my life and me wanting to exist living like I was. Then knee surgeries staph infections. I take two pills a day broken in half. At one time years back I was self medicating with them. I quit for years. Now I know how to maintain a strict discipline using them. Im also closely monitored by a physician in using them. I don’t use alcohol either. I’ve tried other non narcotic meds but had to take so many that I knew it wasn’t good. I don’t want to sink back in that dark place in dealing with pain again. If you can’t discipline yourself using them don’t use them.

From: BIG BEAR
22-Dec-17
24 surgeries... Holy cow !! I just had surgery on my back this month....... my first real surgery in my life .... I can't even imagine 24 surgeries.....

From: DL
22-Dec-17

DL's embedded Photo
DL's embedded Photo
Ridden hard and put away wet. Tore ACLs in both knees in my 20s that set me up for a bunch of surgeries. Worked most of my life as a truck and equipment mechanic. At 67 I’m happy I have both legs and a decent back after a fusion. This was two weeks ago.

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
2 Thumbs up, DL.

From: Woods Walker
22-Dec-17
DL: You need to go on the "How Tough Are You Thread" on the Big Game forum......but somehow I think that's not your MO......you just DO it! Tip of that hat sir!

From: JL
22-Dec-17
Some good points and counter-points discussed.

It maybe a better approach to put in context of legal use (under Doc's knowledge and supervision) and illegal use (outside of Doc's knowledge and supervision) and when does one actually cross the bar to illegal use? By doing that it may answer some questions WRT who is paying for what/when and was addiction the result of illegal use?

The last time I know I took some prescrip drugs specifically for pain was in 2007 or so for a compounded broken big toe. I may have taken some Tylenol-3 during chemo but I don't remember because of all the drugs I was taking.

Some general info:

Brief Description

Opioids are a class of drugs that include the illegal drug heroin, synthetic opioids such as fentanyl, and pain relievers available legally by prescription, such as oxycodone (OxyContin®), hydrocodone (Vicodin®), codeine, morphine, and many others. These drugs are chemically related and interact with opioid receptors on nerve cells in the body and brain. Opioid pain relievers are generally safe when taken for a short time and as prescribed by a doctor, but because they produce euphoria in addition to pain relief, they can be misused (taken in a different way or in a larger quantity than prescribed, or taken without a doctor’s prescription). Regular use—even as prescribed by a doctor—can lead to dependence and, when misused, opioid pain relievers can lead to overdose incidents and deaths. An opioid overdose can be reversed with the drug naloxone when given right away. Improvements have been seen in some regions of the country in the form of decreasing availability of prescription opioid pain relievers and decreasing misuse among the Nation’s teens. However, since 2007, overdose deaths related to heroin have been increasing. Fortunately, effective medications exist to treat opioid use disorders: methadone, buprenorphine, and naltrexone. These medications could help many people recover from opioid addiction.

From: K Cummings
22-Dec-17
I don't claim to have an answer to the original question but I do have an opinion on the notion of what some call an "addictive personality."

I believe that everyone has an "addictive personality," insofar as everyone exhibits addictive behavior with something. It's just that some "addictions" are not outwardly destructive and therefore socially acceptable (somewhat).

Whether its opioids, alcohol, cigarettes, sex, exercise, shopping, social media, television, religion, tattoos, hunting, etc., whatever provides your dopamine dump, the "addiction" is similar.

JMHO.

KPC

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
I find that true KPC. There's an old 12 Step saw that goes, "Choose your addiction or your addiction will choose you." Basically, find a healthy way to get your "dopamine dump" or a more foreboding mode will manifest itself.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-17
"Dopamine dump".....I think I've had a few of those after a fun night. I usually find it best to leave the fart fan on for a few extra minutes.

;-)

Matt

From: DL
22-Dec-17
And here we are on here. Haha. Most of us have some addiction according to our wives.

WW here’s my brother. Just govthis yesterday and he’s thrilled. It means back to mule deer hunting this next October. 15 years of dealing with cancer. 72 and just went through staph infections in his leg. Finally said remove it. We don’t like physical things to get in the way of hunting. I’d rather die on a mountain top hunting than in a hospitals and both of us have had our share of hospitals. He uses ibuprofen. When he had his leg removed he said finally I need something stronger. Twice I’ve woken up too early immediately after being wheeled out of the OR. I didn’t care what or how much they gave me. When my surgeon saw me there shaking from the pain he started yelling to get morophine in me now. One nurse aside we just gave him some. He yelled it’s obviously not enough. I understand how people get hooked on hard drugs. The first time I got a shot of Demerol it felt like I was being dipped in warm water. The striped curtains were going sideways in waves. Even saw a girl in a bikini in my room.

From: DL
22-Dec-17
There’s a South Park episode on the addiction of cat piss/spraying in your face. Caused some rather strange hallucinations.

From: Woods Walker
22-Dec-17
I think I rather see the girl in the bikini!

But to KPC's point about everyone having an addiction......I buy bows....and anything with a blade on it. I just can't help it!

From: Rocky
22-Dec-17
Your living on another planet if you believe all addiction's are the same. The only thing the same is the spelling of and definition of that word. Chemical physical addiction makes monsters of good men, has broken and swept away giants as if made of balsa wood umbrellas. Do people somehow think they are different and made of stronger and better things ? Ironically that is the thinking of those most vulnerable. I have personally witnessed heroine addicts sell their own wives on the street. I watched METH destroy happy homes and investments in real estate washed away. I watched the paranoia of a friend in the early seventies tell me FBI agents where hiding in the duct work of his house and that HBO antennas on rooftops were big brother watching. I seen firsthand METH freaks sleeping in our dump trucks in the morning and the sadness of them towing along children begging for money. Only those who have ever been exposed to the horrors and true stories of hardcore drug addicts and witness what a good man is capable of, such horrible acts, can you begin to realize the power of this evil that is unmatched. This opiate epidemic in America is real and its appetite to destroy lives is insatiable. I would hope everyone here who does not have a clue or think they are above believes every word that I have posted. DON'T DO IT TO YOURSELF OR THE FAMILY YOU LOVE. DON'T DO IT. Get addicted to TV or shopping because they eventually will boil down to choice. The other route leaves little room out and only one agonizing choice that is made for you.

DON'T DO IT!

The Rock

From: Pig Doc
22-Dec-17
"But anybody that thinks addiction is a disease really needs their head examined." KsRancher gets it.

Substance abuse does not fit the scientific parameters of a real disease. Unfortunately, the lines of disease vs. disorder, aberrant behavior and just plain poor choices continue to be blurred. Here is a partial list other "addictions" that some dopes are calling "disease" (sex, gambling, video gaming, exercising, shopping, working and spirituality) Calling substance abuse a disease gives the abuser a ready excuse for making poor choices. It also gives the treatment industry a ready market to sell their products and services.

BTW, the classic methods of treatment like 12 steps are horribly ineffective. Roughly 70% of those treated end up using again. Systems like the St. Jude program, in which substance abuse is not looked at as a disease but as a series of poor choices has a success rate over double that of traditional 12 step programs.

I'm sick and tired of the victim mentality in this world. Everything is a disease or someone else's fault. Bullcrap. Why should tax payers and insurance buyers pay for "disease" treatment for losers that self-medicate to excess, be it alcohol, opioids or any other psychoactive substance?

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
I'd be happy if I did not have to pay for the consequences of peoples' food choices. Jettison the coke addicts and the Coke addicts to their own devices.

From: Ron Niziolek
22-Dec-17
Thanks for posting your experience DL. Rocky, I'm not discounting the horrors of what you describe, but somewhere along the line, each one of those addicts had a choice available to them and they chose wrong at that time. I would have to agree that once you go past it, it would be difficult to make the correct decision to deal with it. Difficult but not impossible. Thanks, Ron

From: JL
22-Dec-17
At the end of the day I think someone will have to be the "bad guy" and make the command decision on where to draw the line in the sand and say to certain addicts you're SOL due to your choices. If those addicts (any illegal drug addict) do not want to help themselves and seek self-referred treatment, the 2nd to last option maybe forced, long-term incarceration in a recovery facility.

From: Pig Doc
22-Dec-17
Some "experts" consider food addiction a disease as well. So are taxpayers and insurance companies supposed to foot the bill because some slob can't stop shoving Twinkies in their face? Where does it end?

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
JL, That's one reason I like the disease model of addiction rather than "flawed behavior" model. If someone has a disease and refuses to treat it seriously, they can expect to die. If people started seeing it that way, I believe there would a lot less enabling and a lot less tolerance for BS.

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
"So are taxpayers and insurance companies supposed to foot the bill because some slob can't stop shoving Twinkies in their face? Where does it end?"

-Exactly my point. Thanks.

From: Pig Doc
22-Dec-17
So are you suggesting substance abuse is a disease but eating disorders are not?

From: DL
22-Dec-17
I knew a family, worked with two of the sons. Everyone of them from the parents to the 5 kids were addicted to drugs or alcohol. Alcoholics, not just drinkers. The oldest son was DOA at ERs three times before 25 from heroin. Finally died in his 30s from passing out and slumped over a chair suffocating. Knew two people that were murdered from drug related causes. Alcohol is the king of killers and ruined lives and yet it’s embraced as a good thing. Drugs are evil, Alcohol is fine. Go figure.

From: Owl
22-Dec-17
Nope. That's my point. Type II diabetics get covered. Gastric bypass gets covered, too. Those result from crappy "choices" the same as opiate addictions. Why should other people pay for them? It's unprincipled and illogical.

DL, I hear you on the double standard.

From: Mike B
22-Dec-17
Kudo's Rocky...it couldn't have been better said.

Folks here on the Bowsite come from all walks of life, and we've all experienced different events in our past. Not everyone has seen the world of hard drug abuse..you may have seen it from the "outside", but being around it daily you see the suffering and misery that goes along with it.

Some here have correctly suggested that every addict has had a chance at sobriety offered to them, but keep in mind that's it's a tough choice to make when someone is two days dopesick, and what brain they have left isn't exactly operating efficiently. All they want is to get UNsick, and they're scared to death of the misery that going through complete withdrawal entails.

Heroin, Meth and cocaine are pure evil. Had a dealer living (and doing business) just four doors down from my house, and it took the neighbors and I over 4 years to get that SOB busted and put away. The burglary crime rate in the neighborhood dropped like a rock, and since his property is now in bankruptcy the two neighbors (on either side) are going in and buying it from the bank. Sadly, it's the only way we can guarantee them not being replaced by another dealer.

22-Dec-17
Mike b and rocky excellent post. Once I saw drug addiction up close it really changed my thinking. I was the guy that always said to bad for them they made their choices. But I've seen young people at work die from this. A friend lose his son. A neighbor who has been addicted for the last 12 years. It's just sad I wish there was a easy answer.

From: KsRancher
22-Dec-17
Sorry for my response not answering the original question. But I believe it's up to the addicted person to pay for their own help. Now I am not saying that if someone offers to foot bill to help that they should refuse it.

From: Mike B
22-Dec-17
KsR: "But I believe it's up to the addicted person to pay for their own help. Now I am not saying that if someone offers to foot bill to help that they should refuse it. "

Can't disagree with the intent of your statement, but in most cases when an addict has hit "rock bottom" and is finally willing to submit themselves for rehab, they're also dead broke, or very soon to be. Hopefully they haven't burned all their bridges, and family will step in to help.

As for gov't assistance, it's a sad fact but having a person back working and not being a burden on society is far better for society as a whole. Problem with meth and heroin is the incidence of returning to the habit, so rehab should also include a complete change in their social life (friends, etc.) so they aren't returning to the same element.

Unfortunately with meth and heroin, trying to get sober by the "set it down, walk away and everything is peachy again" method just doesn't work.

As I said, these are evil drugs.

From: HA/KS
22-Dec-17
Recent radio ads in KS say that in 2012 in KS there were 97 opioid prescriptions in KS for every 100 residents. They are encouraging people to pursue physical therapy and lesser pain meds whenever possible.

I personally have had three high-power pain killer prescriptions in the last few weeks. Two got filled, but I have only taken three pills or so total out of the two prescriptions.

BTW, my cost on the prescriptions was less than a dollar. Other more conventional prescriptions may run over $100 each with the same insurance. They seem to hand these things out like water (except cheaper than many of the bottles of water sold at the same pharmacy).

From: HA/KS
22-Dec-17

HA/KS's Link
"US life expectancy decreases for second straight year as overdose deaths soar"

"The life expectancy in the U.S. dropped for the second straight year in 2016 as deaths from drug overdoses rose a staggering 21 percent."

From: Rocky
22-Dec-17
.....because the grip of drug abuse is beyond the comprehension of most people.

DON'T LET THE DEVIL IN. DON'T DO IT. Removing a 6" long splinter on your shin bone with a hammer is no fun.

The Rock

23-Dec-17
Always the doctor's fault... smh

From: Owl
23-Dec-17
It's odd how people ascribe spurious motivation to identifying contributing factors. The overprescription of opiates is a cog in this wheel. But just one. Being dismissive of any factor is counterproductive.

From: K Cummings
23-Dec-17
It would be interesting to know what percentage of all people who have been prescribed opioids end up becoming addicted to them.

That would give an indication as to whether the problem is with the drug itself or the person taking them. I know I have been prescribed opioids on a number of occasions for pain, and have had no desire to take them when my paid subsided. YMMV.

KPC

From: Pig Doc
23-Dec-17
Agree 100% Ike. Always someone else's fault. We live in a world full of victims.

From: Rocky
23-Dec-17
DON'T DO IT,

DON'T DO IT, no matter who you are and you will never know the perils involved that would qualify you to enter into this conversation.

The Rock

From: Kevin Dill
23-Dec-17
An addict will do whatever is required to continue their drug use. How else can you explain a previously good and productive person turning into little more than a being who's every day is consumed with obtaining and using their drug? Abandoning work, families and children?....check. Going to jail and then relapsing within a day of release?...check. Sticking needles in every single body part or appendage that has a vein?...check. Starving their physical bodies?...check. Destroying the lives of people around them?...check. Using dosages high enough to induce unconsciousness and place them on the brink of death every day?...check. Trading, selling, stealing and prostituting themselves to simply get one more fix?...check.

.

And despite all this abject insanity and totally uncontrollable disregard for anything except more drug...we sometimes think it's only a matter of choice or character strength for them to start or stop their behaviors. When one considers the total scope of the national drug epidemic...the crime, cost in lives, destroyed families and terrible toll it takes on the addicted person...it should be pretty obvious a lot of addicts aren't choosing to stay in this situation willingly. Their constant use of drugs makes it appear they are willing...but what they are is in the grip of a thing which has tentacles in their brain and refuses to allow anything like normal choice...right & wrong...even physical survival to be more important.

Addicts may well be responsible for the initial drug use leading to their eventual addiction. Once in the throes of active addiction they may well have no real, demonstrable ability to stop or deal with it on their own. They need help. But make no mistake: an addict MUST assume full responsibility for his or her recovery, once that help is given and the diagnosis confirmed.

As for payment? No easy answers. You could argue it many ways. But the cost of drug use in terms of crime and lost productivity is immense. There would be an argument that publicly funded treatment could save the public money in the long term...but only if generally successful. Failed treatment is money wasted. Not one in a thousand addicts is in a position to self-pay for their inpatient rehabilitation. Most of us who work very productively couldn't afford self-pay either. Incarceration has already proven to be a no-win in terms of cost and recovery outcome. Certainly incarceration plays a valuable role early on if criminal activity has occurred. There's probably nothing better for getting the point home...drugs have done this to you. And that opens the door to abstinence and recovery strategies. But the cost of treatment will never be easy to afford for the majority...and the high odds of relapse make it even more of an expensive conundrum.

From: BIG BEAR
23-Dec-17
What causes a person to resort to heroine ??

I am no expert,, but have responded to numerous heroine overdoses in recent history.....

If you ask me,, for a person to resort to using heroine... they have reached rock bottom in their life and are suicidal...... It's well known that there is usually no return from heroine, and it isn't something used recreationally..... people that turn to it want to die..... and a lot are......

From: Rocky
23-Dec-17
BB,

With all due respect. Opiates are opiates no matter what you call them oxycodone, oxycotin, percocet, roxacet etc. Not true that there is no return from opiates or heroine. Far and away the most people taking these drugs are not heroine addicts who you may find curled up in a ball on a city corner but your respected neighbor in every walk of life who are secret closet addicts whom you would never suspect. If the truth be told I would bet there opiate addicts reading this post right here on the CF no matter that they believe it or not. The reason being the age factor on the CF is the target audience for opiates. Age eventually brings on ailments of pain and discomfort and ailments must be controlled. Sadly the prescription and use of opiates by everyday Americans, is totally out of control. Numbers do not lie. Here is a little wake up call...more than 1 in 3 Americans take some form of PRESCRIBED pharmaceutical opiate that is RECORDED. Recorded. The real shocker...heroine in street form is less powerful than these prescribed opiates. Hard to believe I know because when we think of a heroine addict we see that person curled in ball in agony in the street. In truth it is your neighbors in the greatest numbers flipping the burgers at your barbecue.

DON'T DO IT.

The Rock

From: BIG BEAR
23-Dec-17
I see heroine addicts dead in their cars..... regularly...... sad.

From: HA/KS
23-Dec-17
Long ago, I came to the conclusion that trying to convince anyone (particularly the young) to avoid a behavior because it is dangerous will in general have a very low success rate.

Show them that it is a moral choice and then they can make the decision based on right and wrong. For some, they have convinced themselves that nothing is wrong if they "feel like" doing it or it is "legal." That is their choice.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams

From: Rocky
23-Dec-17
HA,

The true sadness in all of this is that for the most part it isn't born from behavior as much as consequence. You can teach your child and show them the correct path and yes they will choose. When a doctor prescribes, faith and confidence comes into play that the right decision is being made for them or you, beyond your scope of medical knowledge to question that decision or advice. Therein lays the pitfall releasing the patient from unintended guilt. DON'T DO IT...............

The Rock

The Rock

From: Pig Doc
24-Dec-17
I agree Henry. Warning against the dangers and making it forbidden fruit will do nothing to solve the problem. What these young people are seeking is happiness. They believe that dulling their pain with substances will make them happy, when it only makes them numb. The solution is parents, teachers and mentors offering other routes to finding true happiness. This could be hunting, shooting sports, music, athletics, or any number of things to help these young people find meaning and happiness in life.

From: HA/KS
24-Dec-17
Doc, happy is a choice. So is unhappy, bored, etc.

From: Rocky
24-Dec-17
I think we are talking about apples and oranges. When a child grows to be a man irrespective of his happy outlook on life when the time comes to lean on their provider for guidance the world CAN change quickly. Simply not possible to keep your loved ones free of the clutches of hard drugs LEGALLY prescribed. That may very well be when the nightmare begins regardless of your parenting. That you mention your children and their guidance is your obligation and I pray that is enough.

DON'T DO IT.

The Rock

From: Kevin Dill
24-Dec-17
Whether accidental or intentional, prescribed or illicit...most first-time users of drugs have no idea how they will feel. They are experiencing something new and unfamiliar. The last thing on their minds is addiction or trying to become dependent. Many normal functioning people experience drugs and the road leads quickly to a fork: more use, abuse, dependence and addiction...or the experience does nothing attractive for them. It's a dice roll which can lead to huge losses over decades, generations and lifetimes.

The very difficult thing for most to understand? The only thing that brings them relief (from their feelings) is the thing which ultimately brings more misery and maybe death: more of the drug their brain craves and demands they take. Imagine something which (mistakenly) feels so powerfully good that it will lead a person to destroy anything and everything they have good in their lives...the final price being their lives.

Opiates are like snakes. They can do very good things. Leave them alone and they bring no harm. Mess with them or come in contact through no fault of your own and they can bite you with a venom that never lets you leave the snake alone again. Be aware.

From: Pig Doc
24-Dec-17
"Doc, happy is a choice. So is unhappy, bored, etc."

Happiness is a choice. I don't believe anyone chooses to be unhappy or bored. Happiness is not just a choice, after the drive for food and sex happiness, is the number one driver of human behavior. When people believe that drinking or doping is the key to happiness they pursue that avenue. As I stated above, providing healthy avenues for happiness for young people is key to reducing substance abuse issues.

26-Dec-17
My youngest brother just called me. His youngest son, 23 years old, died last night, Christmas night, of opioids. No one even knew he was using.

26-Dec-17
Wow spike so sorry to hear that. My prayers go out to your family.

From: JL
26-Dec-17
Sorry to hear about your nephew.

From: Rocky
26-Dec-17
Spike,

My sincere heartfelt sympathies for your family. I will pray for them this eve for their agonizing loss.

The Rock

From: Stalker
26-Dec-17
Sorry to hear Spike. My neighbor just buried their son this Christmas eve due to opioid overdose.

From: Brotsky
26-Dec-17
I have many friends that work in healthcare. The lengths people will go to to obtain Opioids from their provider is mind boggling. They know no shame or consequence other than "I need my prescription filled!" Some nurses and docs spend large parts of their day dealing with these drug seekers. If you want to start to solve the problem I think you need to start at that basic level. Starting tracking this behavior and reporting it to law enforcement. If I were actively trying to seek out cocaine or heroin I would be in trouble with the law. We should try to utilize something similar for opioid seekers so that their decisions face more consequences and scrutiny that they currently do. An arrest for an illegal pursuit of a prescription might push an addict to get the help they need.

From: gflight
26-Dec-17
I am kind of cold but would prefer opioids be legal and abortion illegal if the Democraps just have to control the population. Abortion is not a choice but murder of the innocent.

26-Dec-17
In my opinion, they need to also be used as intended.

I have had a lot of physical ailment and pain in my life. Some of it was severe and some of it was simply life. The one constant I've noticed over the last 20 years is the frequency in which these drugs have been prescribed to me. and the doses that were prescribed. Knee surgeries equal opioid prescriptions. Throat surgery equals opioid prescription. Nose surgery equals opioid prescription. Cancer surgery equals opioid prescription. Pain and discomfort during cancer treatments equaled opioid. It was endless. And the initial prescriptions were backed up with refills for all these surgeries. Only in the last 5 years has there been a watchful eye by the doctor when prescribing these things.

In all fairness, I don't not blame the doctors though. They were simply using an effective tool. Not initially knowing the effect it would have on some people. As education of this drug has progressed, so has their awareness. It isn't their fault. It's not big pharma's fault either. It is the people who become addicted to it. It isn't like one hit and they were hooked. They had to work at becoming dependent on it. Like all other vises. So, they are to blame.

I do know that doctors and all healthcare professionals are being charged with making the most unhealthy culture in the world, comfortable. I understand pain. I've lived most of my life with it. I'm also middle aged and, its becoming a more natural part of life due to default. It's just life. Suck it up butter cups. And be responsible for yourself and your own happiness.

It should be noted that a large percentage of abusers were not hooked through prescriptions as well. They were street buyers looking for a good time, that possessed the right personality that saw them become hooked by repeatedly buying and abusing the drug from street pushers. So, I think it is fine time to look at where these pills are truly coming from.

The SSI abuse in this country from younger, otherwise healthy adults is a huge contributor. In order to get a disabled label, one must posses a disability. With a disability comes pain. with a government entitlement mindset, one got welfare, then free healthcare, then free drugs when they repeatedly visit the doc for a "bad back". They ether become hooked themselves or self the things for HUGE money.

This has just been my experience living in the "Hillbilly Heroin" capital of the world. I say the government is one of the the biggest contributor's in all this, second only to those abusers. By design or not, that's just the way it is. It's just the results of liberal policy.

The problem could be fixed very easily. It wouldn't be pretty. and, it will hurt for a while. But, I say that with full knowledge of what these addictions do to a family, community, etc..... We'd all be better off. God Bless men

From: Mint
26-Dec-17
Sorry for your loss Spike. One of best friends was lost to alcohol abuse. He kicked it a few times but always went back. My Father was addicted to morphine, lost an eye to shrapnel and wounded badly they kept him sedated until they could get him out of the jungle. He kicked it at the hospital ship but told me when I was of age to keep me away from drugs. I've never abused them. After donating my kidney they gave me percoset but I only took one pill and then dealt with the pain instead. The Dr's were responsible though and only gave me a week supply which I returned. I don't know how to fix this dreadful addiction problem but I sure hope people get the help they need.

From: Owl
26-Dec-17
My sincerest condolences, Spike.

26-Dec-17
Thank you so much, all. No words are adequate to console my brother. I will be going down to Raleigh for the service, for my brother and my other nephew, really. So hard. My worst nightmare would be to bury my own child, or grandchild. Praying myself.....

From: Bowbender
26-Dec-17
Spike,

Sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences to you, your brother and the family.

"My worst nightmare would be to bury my own child, or grandchild. Praying myself....."

X2

From: slade
26-Dec-17
Spike,

Sorry for your family's loss.

From: 70lbdraw
26-Dec-17
I'm so sorry for your loss Spike. Too many parents are having to deal with this reality.

From: HA/KS
26-Dec-17
Though I am a big believer in personal responsibility, unless you have been addicted, you probably cannot accurately understand the process.

The process of addiction is probably also different for different people. I remember my mom telling about the first time her brother drank, he came home drunk (I think she said he was 14). She believed that he was already an alcoholic that night. Though dried out many times, he always went back and ended up passing out in a car in the cold and not surviving the night.

Some are easily addicted and some not so much. One body may tolerate alcohol, but easily succumb to a different substance. We really don't know everything there is to learn about the process and how to prevent the tragic loss of lives it causes. As Spike (and others here) can attest, the addicted is not the only victim.

I still remember being about 12 and deciding I would not consume alcohol or tobacco (having seen how it damaged so many aunts and uncles and how their families suffered). I am thankful that I made that decision.

From: Woods Walker
26-Dec-17
So sorry for you family's loss spike. My best friend's son is battling opioid addiction and is now living with the Salvation Army. It's his last hope. He's OD'ed 3 times now and was literally brought back from the dead, but that puts the odds now even more against him unless he gets a handle on it.

From: Sage Buffalo
27-Dec-17
My father-in-law is a world renowned geneticist (sp?). Anyway, he says some are born with a gene that is dormant unless you taste alcohol or drugs and it "awakens" it and there is no way to turn off the addiction and the person is left with a lifelong battle with the substance of their choice.

He said literally ONE taste triggers this gene.

While I get responsibility if you want to see how tough it is to deal with it I was once told to stop eating anything with sugar for a month and you will know in a very small way what they are going through.

From: Mad dog
27-Dec-17
I have great empathy for addicts, have had close friends and family with "the monkey on their backs," but When they call it a "disease" and they can't help it, I'm not buying it. It is a terrible WEAKNESS. All men are NOT created equal. Control, discipline and sheer WILL separate us. That being said, I pray for them and do anything to help and support them in recovery. Mad Dog

From: JL
27-Dec-17
Sage,

Pretty interesting.....I never heard of this alcohol gene so I did a little looking around. It seems it's possible there could be something to it but it is unknown exactly if this trigger is all hereditary. All of the sites I looked at said other factors come into play such as behavior and cultural factors.

It does bring up a good discussion point. For the sake of the discussion let's say alcoholism is hereditary. If a person has this "alcohol gene", should they not consume alcohol? This gets back to the thread OP, if they do consume alcohol knowing they have the alcohol gene and then trigger this gene, it's my view they would be responsible for what may occur.

From: K Cummings
27-Dec-17
How about obesity? Many believe there is a genetic component to that too. Who should be held financially responsible for the "treatment" of obesity?

KPC

From: gflight
27-Dec-17
I wasn't hooked on my first cigarette but it was difficult to quit. I just had to make up my mind. If I smoked quite a few now I would probably start back.

My grandfather drank almost every waking hour of his life. Not even racing off with me (10yr old) using his extra key after a cop had called us a ride and was going let him off from a DUI, stopped him from drinking. Then when he was about 60 he just decided to quit after backing into a phone pole which he had done like 5 times previous. He was your textbook alcoholic and bootlegged with his uncle as a child. Six years sober when he passed.

Guess I am just glad I don't have a birth defect like the tobacco, alcohol, opiate, gay, or what ever other gene is all the rage. I will pray for you guys though....

From: gflight
27-Dec-17
"How about obesity?"

Too much sea salt or rather lack of iodine jacks up the Thyroid....

Some people are bigger than others but ration their diet and the "FAT" gene goes dormant in most folks.....;^)

From: elkmtngear
27-Dec-17
Your brain actually produces Opiates to deal in pain management. When you supplement, it basically quits producing, similar to the way the Pituitary gland shuts off Thyroid hormone production, when it senses high levels in your bloodstream.

So, since you have no other way to deal at that point, you can quickly become both physically and psychologically addicted.

I think learning this in Physiology classes, has helped me to avoid Opiates even when I had them prescribed. Sometimes knowing how addiction can start, can help someone avoid it.

27-Dec-17
There maybe a gene that predisposes some people to addiction. I'll buy that. What I won't buy is the idea that it gets awakened in some people with one simple exposure to their vice. Every human alive has a weakness that is all their own. And, every single person alive would be worse off if they subsided to it. And, it rests on our shoulders to beat it versus playing the victim to it.

It is hard. Life isn't always fair either. But, the responsibility to be the person we were intended to be lies within us all. And, is not to be lost when our own caused problems are blamed upon something else because it's easier to play the victim and cave in versus expressing a little bit of will power.

I'm sorry for the family's and affected people of the addicts. But, no one is to blame but the addicts. And, if they require rehabilitation, part of it should be job placement when they are done, until they pay the bill. Our tax dollars are being spent on them anyways. Put them to work cleaning up trash, doing road work, etc.....If they don't agree, then don't help them. Let the family and, their enablers deal with them until they over dose or come to their sense's. I'm sorry but that is the way I feel. No one wants uncomfortable change until they are out of options. It takes rock bottom to be out of options.

Rehabilitation rates are low as is. This new policy or awareness won't change that. It's simply going to be another government mess up. Wasted money with minimal results. God Bless men

From: BIG BEAR
27-Dec-17
I understand that heroin is an opiate,,, But I wonder what percent of the overdose deaths are heroin, and what percent is prescribed medication.....

We have seen a huge influx of heroin overdoses at work in the last year or 2...... But I can't say that I've seen an overdose on prescription drugs that led to death..... But I'm not saying it isn't happening....

From: Rocky
27-Dec-17
WV, There are victims. Put "them" to work? The over whelming majority of drug addicts are "them" upstanding citizens. They have jobs and families. Why don't we try to find the root problem of how these evil addictive drugs 5x more powerful than street heroine reach their hands? How our politicians are in bed with the pharms that distribute this evil foreknowledge in place? No WV this is much deeper than a weak person who refuses to help themselves. This is about white collar crime in the billions of dollars not urban alley pimps hustling dime bags.

The Rock

From: elkmtngear
27-Dec-17
Big Bear, I've been seeing a lot of heroin ODs as well. I've been in healthcare for decades, and my Wife works as an ICU Nurse. Not a lot of direct deaths from prescription overdose, but quite a few that choose to attempt suicide, through overdose using prescription meds. Many of them also seem to simply give in to their ailments, sliding into comfortable sedentary existences under their prescriptions...and other system failures ultimately take them.

From: CAS_HNTR
28-Dec-17
I personally believe it could be overcome with stronger mental strength, will power, and accepting responsibility for ones actions.

That being said......my brother in law is bad. Has ODd several times on heroin and been brought back from death 2 time in the last 6 months. He just cannot seem to stop. Goes to jail for parole violation and gets off it and then back to same old same in a matter of a few weeks once out.

Writing is on the wall and I sure hope he gets it together for my wife, in-laws, and his 2 young kids......but I have serious doubts.

From: bad karma
28-Dec-17
The prescription opiate OD's I've seen have all been suicides.

Drug addiction is just suicide on the installment plan.

From: Annony Mouse
28-Dec-17
There is potential good news on the horizon when it comes to addictive opoids. There are several vaccines under development and study that may block the addictive properties of these drugs; i.e. remove the "pleasure" and habit forming tendencies of heroin and derivatives by blocking effects in the brain. None of these vaccines are near becoming treatment for addiction at present, but there is promising initial data from early testing and studies.

From: BIG BEAR
28-Dec-17
Karma...... So if the prescription drug overdoses are suicides.....

And pretty much anyone can see that the very first time you stick a heroin needle in your arm it's very highly likely to end up as a death sentence....... I agree with you...... It is suicide on the installment plan. A person who resorts to heroin has already hit rock bottom in their life for whatever reason..... and doesn't care if or when the heroin kills them. After they inject it once.... it is usually too late to rethink those thoughts because now the drug has them addicted......

From: DL
28-Dec-17
Sorry to hear that news Spike. Lost a nephew to drug and alcohol OD. Everyone talks about the evils of opioids probably while they are drinking their favorite drug, alcohol. I grew up in a home where there wasn’t any alcohol. My folks parents didn’t have alcohol in their homes either. My 17 year old brother was killed by a drunk driver. My wife’s cousins son was married, had a 18 month old daughter and pregnant wife. His band was at playing at a party and ended up trying to drive home drunk. Killed himself and another innocent driver. Her other cousins daughter in her early 20s killed herself in a wreck that incinerated her. Let’s get real! 48,000 die from all forms Of drug use 94,000 die from alcohol each year 480,000 die from smoking. Then there’s the figures of shortened lives from their use. I would bet that there is a good percentage of kids brought up in a alcohol using family that end up in that opioid using catagory. I never drank or used tobacco because I’m too cheap to spend money on it. Everyone will go in about opiods while ignoring the major killers.

From: BIG BEAR
28-Dec-17
Everything you said is true DL and alcohol and drugs are indeed tragic killers.....

But it is possible to be a responsible consumer of alcohol or even marijuana.......

There is no such thing as responsible use of heroin.....

From: gflight
28-Dec-17
"Everyone will go in about opiods while ignoring the major killers."

Like Pit Bulls.....Sorry wrong thread

From: Rocky
28-Dec-17
BB, Then why are they prescribed? Seems like many here do not want or are unable to understand that the "heroine" in the largest quantity and most powerful doses are being dealt " legally" by doctors, not street drug pushers. Following that thinking every patient who takes or has taken opioids is in for a suicidal surprise. That thinking is ridiculous. Check out one place, Mohave, Arizona. Four doctors prescribed over 6 M pills in a 12 month period. Arizona has had 538 opioid deaths from June 16th to Nov. 2nd. Everyone of them committed suicide from pain relief? Are you kidding me? There are over 1M doctors in the U.S....... Do the math.

The Rock

From: K Cummings
28-Dec-17

K Cummings's Link
"Opioid Addiction Is a Huge Problem, but Pain Prescriptions Are Not the Cause"

A number of studies show that used as prescribed, opioid pain killers are relatively safe. It isn't until they are abused for their euphoric affect that they become a problem.

Interesting to note:

"75 percent of all opioid misuse starts with people using medication that wasn’t prescribed for them—obtained from a friend, family member or dealer."

While I am sure that there are people that become addicted "innocently," it would appear that the majority of problems arise when the drugs are not taken as, or for who they were prescribed.

KPC

28-Dec-17
KPC has got it right. That is exactly what we are dealing with. No genetic weakness, no poor guy getting over a surgery becoming hooked. It's people looking for a good time, buying the things and becoming what they are by choice. It takes an effort.

Live, work, and survive around this crap and the effects it has on EVERYONE in society and, all these superstitious, incorrect, bleeding heart ideas of what caused it, who's doing it, and how to stop it becomes really pitiful to read. It becomes a problem when the people who are addicted to them puts forth the effort to become hooked on them. Period. And, more times than not, it isn't the average joe who had his knee replaced.

From: BIG BEAR
29-Dec-17
Rock..... Out of 538 opioid deaths...... how many of them were SPECIFICALLY heroin deaths ???

All I am telling you is that at work I am not seeing deaths due to prescription drugs..... I am seeing a lot of heroin overdoses..... People in health care jobs here corroborated that....

If prescription drugs are causing deaths...... Maybe it can be attributed to people illegally using the pills as KPC said...... then when they can't get their hands on pills anymore,, they turn to heroin ????

From: BIG BEAR
29-Dec-17
By the way.... I had back surgery on Dec. 11th..... I took my prescribed amount of hydrocodon for about 5 days and that's it.....

From: BIG BEAR
29-Dec-17
I can honestly say that I don't ever recall getting sent to an overdose on pills where the person died..... I'm not a medic but our Department always sends the Police along with the Fire Department Medics on overdoses.........

All of the overdoses that I can ever recall that I went on were overdoses of various types of medications that were in the house....Tylenol for example....and not fatal..... I've never been sent to a house where someone had died from prescription opioids.....

I have been to NUMEROUS heroin overdoses in the last 2 years..... some fatal and some brought back to life by the medics.....With Narcan...... Heroin overdoses are becoming so commonplace that Police Departments are in the beginning stages of carrying Narcan and training Officers to use it......

From: Mike B
29-Dec-17
BB, my wife is prescribed an opioid, and along with the prescription came 2 nasal doses of Narcan, and no doubt I'll end up using them to save the life of one of the local heroin addicts. I've see it used on "Live PD", and the stuff is incredible..it saves lives.

From: Rocky
29-Dec-17
Mike,

Why save them? Some believe their lives are worthless.

The Rock

From: Mike B
29-Dec-17
Rock, people can believe anything they wish...I ain't one of 'em, and never was one to follow the "crowd mentality". No wonder I've always been considered as a loner.

They may be addicted to a horrible drug, but that doesn't mean they don't have people that love them. Mothers, brothers...children..they don't stop loving someone because they've made a galactically stupid mistake, and so long as they are alive an addict has a chance to get sober..small a chance as it might be, it's still a chance they wouldn't have otherwise.

From: BIG BEAR
29-Dec-17
Well said Mike.

From: K Cummings
29-Dec-17
It won't prevent all opioid addictions but a good way to prevent many of them is to never take any drug for anything other than for what, who, and how it was prescribed, and certainly not for recreational purposes. Doing so almost always starts out as a choice.

KPC

From: HA/KS
29-Dec-17
Mike - yes!

29-Dec-17
I assume that some have misunderstood my response t be heartless. However, It has nothing to do with not loving them. Not praying for them. Not crying for them. What it does have to do with is watching someone you love, that has become an abuser, continue down this path of destruction, regardless of what you do for them.

I also say otherwise because it is my belief from experience that true love requires letting them stand for their actions. God can do anything but, he is FREE WILL on individual choices. Enabling the addict is not helping them. And, no one changes an addiction until they are out of options. Deciding to let things run the course that has been chosen is not a sign of heartless action. It is a sign of true love when dealing with an addict. God Bless men

From: slade
06-Jan-18
Dem Sen Hassan: We Need $25 Billion in Additional Spending to Combat Opioid Crisis

From: Mike B
06-Jan-18
WV M "I also say otherwise because it is my belief from experience that true love requires letting them stand for their actions. God can do anything but, he is FREE WILL on individual choices. Enabling the addict is not helping them. And, no one changes an addiction until they are out of options. Deciding to let things run the course that has been chosen is not a sign of heartless action. It is a sign of true love when dealing with an addict. "

While I do understand what your saying, if I'm standing there with a dose of lifesaving medicine, and there's still breath in the addicts body, then I'm going to give them the Narcan. If God wants to stop me and let that person die, He'll have to do it Himself.

Our first instinct should always be to preserve life, and I'm not about to let somebody die just because *I think* God would want them dead.

That's just nuts.

From: HA/KS
06-Jan-18
Apparently the obama administration gave Hezbollah the green light to continue to bring heroin into the US to save the deal to give nukes to Iran.

From: Woods Walker
06-Jan-18
Obama has a special place in hell waiting for him. And he's earned it. Multiple times.

From: Rocky
06-Jan-18
Mike B, You are placing yourself in danger of becoming a good man. God will smile upon you.

The Rock

07-Jan-18
"While I do understand what your saying, if I'm standing there with a dose of lifesaving medicine, and there's still breath in the addicts body, then I'm going to give them the Narcan. If God wants to stop me and let that person die, He'll have to do it Himself.

Our first instinct should always be to preserve life, and I'm not about to let somebody die just because *I think* God would want them dead.

That's just nuts."

I agree on saving a ife. However, what's nuts MikeB is you insinuating I said anything differently. Never did I say, insinuate, or plan to watch an overdose victim just die. I'd do everything in my power to stop it. I was plainly referring to living with them and helping them reach the point that they want to quit bad enough to QUIT. Never did I propose to watch an overdose victim die. And I find that insinuation ignorant. It took a great effort on your part to come up with that versus what I did say.

That's nuts and a few other things too. None of which is what I said or implied.

From: K Cummings
07-Jan-18
"Never did I propose to watch an overdose victim die. And I find that insinuation ignorant. It took a great effort on your part to come up with that versus what I did say."

Regardless of the topic WVM, welcome to the CF.

:)

KPC

From: Mike B
07-Jan-18
WV M Deciding to let things run the course that has been chosen is not a sign of heartless action. It is a sign of true love when dealing with an addict.

This is the phrase that, IMO, implied just letting the person expire (ie: .."run the course that has been chosen"). Your position has been pretty hard-core throughout the thread, so my presumption was based on your overall tone. You knew what you were thinking when you wrote it, but unfortunately, I couldn't read your mind.

However, if I misunderstood your intent, my apologies.

From: TGbow
07-Jan-18
I use to drink, not everyday but every chance I got. I couldn't drink everyday because of my job. I grew up around alcohol playing music at a very young age, though neither of my parents were heavy drinkers. 20 yrs ago I quit except for a little wine once or twice a year at special occasions.

I had a choice to drink or not to drink...but, I don't condemn an individual that has an addiction because for some people it's not easy to quit an addiction.

07-Jan-18
No. Every post I typed was talking about addicts and the problems they cause. And, that by helping them by giving them a place to live, giving them money, food, etc... you are simply enabling them. That's what that meant and, I thought that was crystal clear. It's be kinda hard to wish God's blessing as I do, with such a hard heart.

When you are dealing with a family member that is a pill addict, everyone wants to tell you how to act and, what you need to do to help those addicted. From afar I add. Well, I've dealt with more than I care too. And, that's what I've come too. You can't help them if they don't want the help. And as long as they have your affection, your money, your help, they will NOT change.

From: HA/KS
07-Jan-18
We could just legalize it and tax it and all of the problems would disappear.

From: Rocky
07-Jan-18
HA, They are legal and are taxed accordingly as is marinol when prescribed by a physician who gets reimbursed handsomely for the QUANTITY they PUSH, yes push, through the doors. Want to stop the alarming rate of addicts? Stop the drug pushers in their white mocks and watch the numbers tumble. These parasites prey on every segment of society, legally, and protected by our government. Clean cut well to do respected Ivory Tower killers who destroy lives and families and children, not some superfly ghetto crackhead fleecing his neighborhood. Scumbags who should be rooted out and placed in general population in the same vein as the Clinton's. No friggin difference.

The Rock

From: K Cummings
12-Jan-18

K Cummings's Link
Interesting article in my local paper re: opioid addiction. Thought others might find it interesting.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
12-Jan-18
That's interesting Kevin..... The woman in that story is obviously addicted to oxycodone or she's selling it.......

But unlike someone who is addicted to heroin.... She will never be charged with a crime.....

She will simply continue to shop for a different doctor until she gets her script filled.... She did it over 20 times in a year.....

Isn't she just as guilty of a crime as someone who uses heroin ??

From: slade
12-Jan-18
""She will never be charged with a crime.....""

Only if she is not a famous conservative broadcaster....

From: K Cummings
12-Jan-18
I'm guessing that if she has a prescription for it, there is no crime.

However, if she's caught selling, buying (illegally), or manufacturing, that's a different story.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
12-Jan-18
Thats the problem Kevin... She could go to a hundred different doctors in a matter of months and get scripts from each one....

At what point does it become criminal ?? She's obviously an addict. If she buys heroin it's a felony.....

The best bet for a heroin addict to get clean is in jail....

From: Mike B
12-Jan-18
"The best bet for a heroin addict to get clean is in jail.... "

I agree, but the problem is that addict gets out of jail, goes right back to their old friends and they are right back where they started. There needs to be some type of mandatory rehab immediately following their release, and that it be a condition of their release. They longer you can keep them away from it the better their chances for staying clean.

As for the "Doc Shopping", I believe there is a law against this in my state (WA), and all opioid patients have to see a pain specialist clinic before they are prescribed any opioid. They (patients) are also heavily monitored as to being in compliance with the prescribed amount they use daily.

From: HA/KS
12-Jan-18
Why not just declare it a recreational drug, tax it, and we all get rich instead of just the drug cartels?

From: BIG BEAR
12-Jan-18
Really Henry..... ?? I wondered who would be the first to say that...........

Because opiates are killing people........

And the people who survive being addicted to them have their lives destroyed. They would steal from their family to support their habit...

From: HA/KS
12-Jan-18
Their body, their choice. While we are at it, why is assisted suicide illegal? Isn't it just a business deal between two consenting adults?

Make it legal and tax it.

From: BIG BEAR
12-Jan-18
Or why don't we make booze illegal......

From: HA/KS
13-Jan-18
As I have stated, laws do not make people moral - they only point out what is immoral.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Jan-18
Henry ..... Which is it then ?? Do you want everything to be illegal ?? What should be legal ?? Forget what is moral and immoral for one minute.... What should be legal ?? What should be illegal ??

How about gambling ?? Should it be legal or illegal ?? They sent me to the house of a guy one time who sat at the blackjack table and blew his brains out with a pistol right at the table after losing big time.... To notify his family.....

Should church bingo be legal ?? It is gambling.... right ??

From: BIG BEAR
13-Jan-18
Come on Henry... cut to the chase....... Simply tell me which of these vices should be legal and which should be illegal.... one word answer for each;

Alcohol.

Marijuana.

Gambling.

Heroin.

Crack Cocaine.

Prostitution.

Cigarettes.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Jan-18
Here's my answers..... LEGAL, LEGAL, LEGAL, ILLEGAL, ILLEGAL, LEGAL in controlled areas like Vegas, and of course LEGAL on cigarettes......

From: HA/KS
13-Jan-18
Bear, our nation was built on the premise that people would govern themselves because they were moral and religious. As people abandon both, our nation cannot last as it was conceived by the founders.

The options are to return to religion and morality or expect an increasingly authoritarian and corrupt government.

My desire is that people do none of the things on their (oops, your list) list because they choose not to.

BTW, non-profit sponsored gambling is illegal in many places.

As I have stated multiple times - enforce a law or get rid of it.

From: BIG BEAR
13-Jan-18
Aside from your desire.... What are your answers on the listed vices ?? Legal or illegal ????

From: Mike B
16-Jan-18

Mike B's Link
Some states are beginning to take a more proactive approach to this issue. While this will cause hardship for legitimate patients, it's going to put a hell of a barrier in front of opioid abusers.

From: Woods Walker
16-Jan-18
Assuming that a prostitute is NOT a drug addict, minor, or someone else being held against their will, the difference between prostitution and the other vices listed is that when prostitution is illegal it's NOT the act that's illegal, it's the fact that the government isn't getting a cut of the proceeds.

A man can ask a woman for a date, take her to a dinner, a movie and then a motel (if they're both willing) for sex, spend a couple hundred dollars and it's perfectly legal. The same man can ask the same woman for sex for $200 and it's illegal, even if they both consent. Same act, same results, same health risks, except with one the government isn't part of the deal. If it were then no problem.

I'm well aware of the dark side of prostitution and it IS a factor. But if you look simply at the act itself it seems rather hypocritical to say if you spend money for sex that's guaranteed it's a crime, but if it's not it isn't. Whaaa....????

From: HA/KS
16-Jan-18

HA/KS's embedded Photo
HA/KS's embedded Photo

From: Buckiller
17-Jan-18
After 20 years in the counseling/ inner healing business, one of the common thread of people that continue on in addiction is the un-willingness or inability to be honest with themselves and/ or others. Over and over and over again I've dealt with people who choose to lie and live deceitfully rather than approach their situation head on. Whether it is from fear, unwillingness to be accountable, deep woundedness from their past or other factors, the common thread remains true: almost without exception EVERY addict that continues in their addictions believes a lie or lies to others... incessantly. The ones that change are the ones that come out of the shadows of deceit and face their situation honestly with themselves and others.

From: bad karma
17-Jan-18
Buckiller, agreed. The first step is always to get them to quit believing their own BS.

From: Rocky
17-Jan-18
DON'T DO IT. I have witnessed it break the best of men. Don't test your will power against opioids ( the purest of heroine that can be purchased) being prescribed for pain. Three dynamics are being engaged at the same time. The opioids are prescribed to relieve pain and does its job well, the pain becoming resistant in turn requires a constant increase in opioids to complete its intended task and the unknowing victim or patient who simply requires relief from the original pain becomes addicted. The addict is now a slave to pain relief first and foremost, then physically and psychologically harnessed to their only outlet. We have this perception of the drug addict of today being the "man with the golden arm" and a monkey on his back" of the 50's and 60's. That man is but a grain of sand on the opioid beach of addiction today. Mother, fathers, sisters brothers, aunts ,uncles, your best and most trusted friends. Are they all liars? They are the one's who far and away comprise addicts today. DON'T DO IT! Seek every alternative right down to chewing on a stick.

The Rock

From: MT in MO
17-Jan-18
I used to be addicted to cigarettes. Smoked them for years. Quit a couple of times for a year or so, then would have a beer or 3 and start smoking again.

Then I told myself I would only smoke when I drank. That just increased my beer consumption...8^)

One New Years Day I was sitting at home by myself and realized I only had 4 smokes left. It was cold and snowy out and the roads were bad. I also had a bad cold. Decided then and there I was tired of being a slave to the damn things and decided I would quit after smoking my last 4.

I did and haven't touched one since and haven't even had the desire to smoke one ever since. Maybe the first couple of weeks or so, but today I can be standing in a room full of smokers and it doesn't cause me to want one at all.

The moral? An addict ain't gonna quit until they are ready to quit...JMO

From: Woods Walker
17-Jan-18
I think that's a pretty darn solid opinion MT.

From: Rocky
17-Jan-18
MT,

....I would say are ABLE to quit. Good news you kicked the habit which takes willpower. Congrats. Nicotine and opioids are two completely different animals not sharing the same universe with its clutches.

The Rock

From: MT in MO
17-Jan-18
I wasn't trying to equate nicotine with opium. Only that an addict has to want to quit before they have a chance of quitting...A big part of addiction is in the mind. I have to have that smoke after dinner, gotta have a drink after work to relax, I have to have that pill to get through the day...etc...

From: Atheist
17-Jan-18
MT , opioid addiction is a physical addiction. Yes there is a psychological aspect but the reason addicts, especially babies born addicted to heroin often die. They can’t deal w the physical withdrawal of the opioid. Once the pain becomes unbearable for adults, they relapse because being high far outweighs the Withdrawal. It’s a vicious cycle. Sadly.

17-Jan-18
MT got it right.

I assume some of you watched Tucker last night I assume most who did, saw where a good bit of this medicine is being paid for by our own government. It seems that all insurance companies EXCEPT government insurance, require pre-approval for the med's. However, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Veterans association, does not have a check in place for people that go from Doctor to Doctor to get these things.

Once again, our government is as guilty here as anyone. An any addict will keep going until THEY want to quit. Government intrusion is not the answer. Look at what they have done to their clients. And, Rocky, you might be right to an extent. but, these everyday people don;t stay profitable, contributing members of society very long after becoming hooked on these things. It isn't hard to tell who is and who isn't. And the trail of broken lives is soon to follow.

This stuff is bad. However, it does good for those that need it. So, Don't blame the doctor's. Don't blame the pharmaceutical companies. Blame the people that WORKED at getting hooked on it. And, don't enable them. There is no easy way to break from an addiction. No easing off. No compromises of methadone. They gotta hit rock bottom before the WANT to fix it, over shadows the desire to get another hit. It is no different than a smoker, an alcoholic, etc..... God Bless

From: SteveD
17-Jan-18
There are many drug seekers using the "pain card" to get the the drugs from my experience. THAT needs to addressed and doesn't seem like any of the "powers to be" are willing to take that "abuser" group on or at least identify that they are large part of the opioid problem. Everyone suffers if they don't make a serious attempt at Identifying and reducing those abusers as much as possible. There are ways to get off , granted its tough and painful but whats the alternative letting them stay on opioids for ever?

From: Rocky
17-Jan-18
Love ya WV but you are way off base. The addiction from opioid abuse begins primarily from increased prescriptions and pain management centers. The pain in most cases remains targeted with the drugs prescribed but the body as I said become resistant. Many people who are being treated for pain with oxy are your neighbors and people close to you no matter where you live or work in America. You would be shocked if all would be unmasked. You have to witness a multitude of oxy dope sick people trying to kick this monster to realize how deep the claws are embedded. These people are from the doctor prescribed oxy farm. Sad. DON'T DO IT !

The Rock

The Rock

From: K Cummings
18-Jan-18
"I wasn't trying to equate nicotine with opium."

But you could. Nicotine addiction and opioid addiction are the same in that they both have strong physical and psychological components.

Both effect dopamine levels in much the same way. The progression of addiction is very similar, and even many of the withdrawal symptoms are the same.

Congrats on giving up cigarettes by the way. I quit in much the same way you did. I just finally came to the conclusion that I didn't want to do it any more and stopped.

KPC

From: Rocky
18-Jan-18
"The progression of addiction is very similar, and even many of the withdrawal symptoms are the same". My God. You do not have a clue saying something as casually ridiculous and uninformed as you have. Withdrawal symptoms? That is a irresponsible statement of which you should be ashamed as if you knew, but that would be like asking for sweet wine from sour grapes. You don't know what you are talking about. Trump would rightfully say.."Fake News".

The Rock

From: slade
18-Jan-18
Rock,

Your problem is you do not possess Critical Pontificating skills. Get ready, his next move is to try and suck you into one of his blatherskite back and forth's of what IS is, as he fabulust's , twists and spin's while trying to squirm his way away around what he said.

From: K Cummings
18-Jan-18
"Get ready, his next move is to try and suck you into one of his blatherskite back and forth's of what IS is, as he fabulust's , twists and spin's while trying to squirm his way away around what he said"

Nice try with all the big words slade, but again you fail. Put down the thesaurus and and do just a little research.

*****

http://www.councilonchemicalabuse.org/ndfw-nicotine-vs-heroin.html

"Research has shown that nicotine is just as addictive as heroin. The progression of addiction is the same for nicotine as it would be for heroin, or cocaine, or alcohol. The user starts with maybe just one cigarette a day, then it goes to two, then three, before they know it they are smoking a half pack a day, or more. The user’s tolerance rises, requiring more nicotine to get the same “feel good” effect, and also more nicotine to avoid the withdrawal symptoms.

Nicotine is found in any tobacco product including cigarettes, cigars and chew tobacco. Most fluid used for electronic cigarettes also includes nicotine and each bottle varies in the amount.

The Center for Disease Control (CDC) says nicotine dependence is the most common form of chemical dependence in the United States. Withdrawal from nicotine dependence on nicotine can cause symptoms similar to withdrawal from other drugs, including irritability, anxiety, difficulty concentrating, insomnia, restlessness, and increased appetite. These symptoms may begin within a few hours after the last cigarette, quickly driving people back to tobacco use. Symptoms peak within the first few days of smoking cessation and usually subside within a few weeks. For some people, however, symptoms may persist for months."

*****

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080212171131.htm

"Nicotine and opiates are very different drugs, but the endpoint, with respect to the control of dopamine signaling, is almost identical. "There is a specific part of the nucleus accumbens where opiates have been shown to affect behavior, and when we tested nicotine in that area, the effects on dopamine are almost identical."

*****

Maybe you'll get luckyand one of your buds will come to your rescue and divert attention by calling me a name or posting a moronic picture.

KPC

From: Mint
18-Jan-18
There are plenty of both, people wanting to get high all the time and people that get addicted because of the pain they are fighting.

18-Jan-18

orionsbrother's Link
Woah! KPC! I had no idea that you were one of those Fabulust people!

They do talk about "discrete packaging"...

Now comes the "sex addiction is the toughest addiction"... 'cause it feeeeeels sooooo gooood!

So. I didn't come to anyone's rescue. I may have diverted attention... but without name calling. And I didn't post a moronic picture. I posted a moronic link.

Humans have been aware of opiates for more than 500 years. Extremely refined opiates have been around for a couple hundred years or so. Mary Todd Lincoln was a laudanum addict. Opiate cocktails were sold without prescription until 1914 or 1915.

Were there addicts? Yes. Are there addicts now? Yes.

Will there be addicts in the future? Yes.

Do I think that anyone who becomes addicted has a responsibility to find the help they need to get it under control? Yes.

Time and again it's stated that an addict has to hit bottom and make the decision to face their addiction.

So. There's not really anything that I can do for them.

Whadya want me to do? Wring my hands and wail?

There's some pontification for ya.

From: K Cummings
18-Jan-18
"Woah! KPC! I had no idea that you were one of those Fabulust people!"

Careful there OB, with posts like that, you're going to be labeled one too. You might even have a meme made for you, and be called a FRAUD!!! Heck, someone could even go all Thomas Fuller on ya...

Oh, the horror!!

:)

KPC

From: slade
18-Jan-18
Fabulust: A Critical Pontificating Fabulist who Lusts for attention, thanks for playing Groupie.

From: Rocky
18-Jan-18
Doctors with 1 year med. under their belts living in fantasy land and then giving advice. Whats next? Proper heart transplant procedure? Withdrawal symptom's are the same. That was the high water mark of knowledge right there. DO THEM! Please DO them and abuse them. Report back about your strength and will power and how quitting smoking is basically the same.

What a joke.

The Rock

18-Jan-18
Nah. I'm no fabulist. I do lust for attention though. I was chasing the wife around the house just this morning after she came out of the shower. It was only the two of us though. I'm kinda shy. I think that group stuff would be complicated.

She has four titanium plates and twenty two titanium screws in her head from a Le Fort III. Combining your skull with an Erector Set calls for some opiates. They were used. They were not abused.

I am grateful that they exist. I can't imagine trying to manage serious pain with Tylenol.

I am very sad that the titanium plates do not set off metal detectors at the airport. I was really looking forward to being in public, responding to the beeping by tapping my index finger on my skull, announcing, "Plates in her head. Multiple metal plates in her head."

From: Hawkarcher
19-Jan-18
Two years ago today my older sister died of an apparent opioid overdose. Previous to that she had kicked the habit, as it were. She was proud to be off drugs which were legally prescribed. Broke her ankle and took some Vicodin, at the level she was used to. Her last text to my other sister was “These Vicodin are kicking my ass.” Shit happens. Not always illegally.

From: Hawkarcher
19-Jan-18
I’m a prescriber. Since that day I’m not afraid to just tell patients “no.” Ibuprofen is more effective than narcotics but won’t give you a buzz. And I could give two shits if you care.

19-Jan-18
My condolences on the loss of your sister.

From: K Cummings
19-Jan-18
My condolences also Hawkarcher.

For the record, I have on numerous occasions, been prescribed and used opioids for pain management. I used them as prescribed, and stopped using them when they were no longer needed to relieve pain, or when OTC options were sufficient.

How moronic is it for someone to say please use them and abuse them and then then tell us how easy it is to get off them. As if use and abuse are the same thing.

KPC

Aside to Hawkarcher: Would you mind if I asked some questions pertaining to your sister's situation or would you prefer to not discuss it?

From: SteveD
19-Jan-18
Hawk archer well said and a lot truth about Ibuprofen.

From: bad karma
19-Jan-18
Being allergic to NSAIDS, folks like me are left with Tylenol, opium derivates or toughing it out.

From: Rocky
19-Jan-18
Your education bears out your moronic view. Every single post I have made was to enlighten and hopefully scare people with "Don't do it"!...but I want you to DO IT in the hope that opioid addiction, which BTW you obviously have never witnessed first hand and don't know a damned thing about but claim so much knowledge, will be a walk in the park for a STRONG man like you. I told you this long ago: "Your the sixth man on the deal team and if you tell me you were fifth your lying.

Hawkarcher, God Bless you and I ache for your sister and that tragedy which could have been prevented if someone realized.

The Rock

From: Rocky
19-Jan-18
bk,

Take the stick option or another effective non-narcotic prescription medication.

Opioids work no doubt about it then go right to work on you for long term pain management. I deal with these people 2 nights a week and prescribed opioid addicts stories are all the same: "I got hooked for two reasons: the 5-325 every 6 hrs. worked great but then it just wasn't working as well. I told my doctor and he upped me to 10 mg every 6 hrs. and then it snowballed from there. I tried to quit but the pain, the weakness, the aches, the flu like symptom's and the diarrhea were just too much. I had to get to work to make money". Same basic story. These symtom's can last for weeks and months on end let alone the depression. Can you say "tough guy"?

DON'T DO IT!

From: Bowbender
19-Jan-18
The ones here in Lancaster, PA and surrounding areas are NOT dying from prescription opioids. They’re 16-30 year olds dying from a hot shot of heroin. Were the stealing painkillers? Possibly? Wanna stop the “epidemic”? Stop the supply of cheap smack.

From: Rocky
19-Jan-18

Rocky's Link

From: Rocky
19-Jan-18
Bowbender,

Most opioid (heroine) addicts that comprise raw numbers do NOT die from overdoses, they continue to live and work in your neighborhood. This article is from 2015. Check out the most recent numbers of seniors addicted across the country. The street addict you dies from overdoses is not even a blimp on the map. Up standing citizens are the walking addicts in the largest numbers.

The Rock

The Rock

From: K Cummings
19-Jan-18

K Cummings's Link
Thought provoking article for those interested.

I can't vouch for the accuracy but it does seem to be well sourced.

KPC

From: Bowbender
19-Jan-18
Rock,

Read the article when it came out. It's my hometown paper. The deaths are coming from fentanyl laced heroin. I know you want to blame it on prescription drugs.... ain't the case. And the majority (25% isn't a majority) are coming from fentanyl laced heroin. Three of my daughters friends OD'd. Wasn't from oxycotin, hydrocondone, or other prescription drugs.... it was from smack. The Lancaster Sunday news ran a series on junkies a little while back. There was one guy, nicknamed "Iron Mike" that was a junkie, he OD'd and died and was like 36 years old. The reporter that covered it said based on statistics he lived about 10-12 years longer than he should have, cuz most junkies are dead by their mid 20's.

From: BIG BEAR
19-Jan-18
The street addict is a blip on the map. First responders are being issued Narcan to deal with the problem....

From: Rocky
19-Jan-18
OK......you all know. Good luck.

The Rock

From: Hawkarcher
19-Jan-18
I appreciate the condolences for the loss of my sister. Sorry for my language regarding people who want narcotics. I was in a mood after reading all the Facebook posts about the anniversary of her death. I don’t mind questions about it KPC.

From: K Cummings
19-Jan-18
Thank you Hawkarcher.

"Two years ago today my older sister died of an apparent opioid overdose. Previous to that she had kicked the habit, as it were. She was proud to be off drugs which were legally prescribed. Broke her ankle and took some Vicodin, at the level she was used to."

When I read this, I was curious why, with her history, she would have taken Vicodin again? Was it prescribed by a physician, and if so was he not aware of her issues with opioids in the past? How long had she been clean prior to that?

Again, if that's too personal, I understand. I was just curious how this could have happened?

KPC

From: Hawkarcher
19-Jan-18
I was curious too. She was proud to have weened herself off them and said withdrawal was hell and she would never go through that again. She did not throw out her old pills- she would get a ninety day supply for chronic pain. Figured she’d be fine taking some for her broken ankle. Apparently her tolerance had returned to that of a non-addict and she would not be fine. I learned of this after her funeral and put two and two together. That’s why I said “apparent” overdose. There was no autopsy.

19-Jan-18
Just to clarify. I played rugby. Getting dinged up, breaking a nose, contusions, sprains... ibuprofen. I'm not wanting narcotics.

If I ever have my face sawed into pieces and bolted back together, I think that I might want opiates. Or, like a buddy of mine who had his arm nearly ripped off in an industrial accident with a Flight For Life Helicopter ride and emergency surgery. Maybe then too, like him. Or my neighbor's friend. His daughter's dirtbag boyfriend stabbed him 47 times. The tough old guy survived somehow, but he was on some opiates for a few days. I am not a doctor, but I believe that's their purpose; acute pain after traumatic injury and surgery.

I have some tangential connections to people who've abused prescription drugs. They had all started recreationally and kept rolling.

I think that people should be careful. I don't think that opiates should be used to get a buzz.

No need to apologize Hawkarcher.

From: K Cummings
19-Jan-18
Damn.

Thanks, and again, I am very sorry.

KPC

From: Hawkarcher
19-Jan-18
Since I’ve joined this conversation I’ll add what I’ve observed as a general dentist in central Iowa. Twenty years ago when I started practicing I encountered at least one “drug seeker” every day. I was on the south side of Des Moines at a place where we took walk ins for emergencies, so that wasn’t unusual. Whole lot of meth users there it seemed. Moved to West Des Moines 14 years ago and saw fewer seekers but still a couple a week. In the last five or so years I’ve encountered only a couple. I think the word is out that dentists are reluctant to write for opioids except after surgical procedures. Couple years ago the DEA changed schedules for Vicodin so a script can’t be phoned in. That’s cut down on “emergency” phone calls too. Doesn’t jibe with the numbers regarding abuse and deaths we hear about so recently just what I’ve noticed.

From: K Cummings
19-Jan-18
It would really be interesting to know, as a percentage, how many of those addicted to opioids started by using a prescription, only as prescribed.

If I had to guess, and it would only be a guess, the percentage would be relatively small.

KPC

19-Jan-18
Well... in retrospect, I have to admit to some drug seeking behavior by myself and some friends. However, we were not drug seeking for any recreational drugs that we wanted to take.

I would request a script from my doctor for a powerful broad spectrum antibiotic to carry with me on wilderness canoe trips and back country trips. They were in case of some dire emergency to help hold infection in check while evacuating to a hospital.

Hawkarcher - I am sorry if something I posted contributed to the reigniting of memories of your sister's passing.

From: Hawkarcher
19-Jan-18
Not at all Orians Brother. I can relate to the procuring antibiotics part too.

From: Hawkarcher
19-Jan-18
Not at all Orians Brother. I can relate to the procuring antibiotics part too.

From: Rocky
20-Jan-18
"If I had to guess, and it would only be a guess, the percentage would be relatively small." Mary had a little lamb also. Volunteer some of your time in rehab centers and halfway houses. Keep your destructive opinions about drug addiction which you absolutely know nothing about to yourself. This isn't the cooking channel.

The Rock

From: Bowbender
20-Jan-18
It's not a destructive opinion Rock, if it's a fact. Get pissed all you want....It's the 16-25 year olds that are filling our obits with OD's.

From: Bowbender
20-Jan-18
edit. double post.

From: Rocky
20-Jan-18
Bowbender,

I am not getting "pissed". I am right next to this opioid problem twice a week four hrs each night. That is all I know. Take it for what its worth and play it down to those who may be listening that they have nothing to worry about if their doctor prescribes opioids for pain relief. I know the traps and their inner workings from the "horse"s mouth, but hey believe whatever you want.

The Rock

From: K Cummings
20-Jan-18
"It's the 16-25 year olds that are filling our obits with OD's."

Not to mention that the ones that manage to avoid the obits, become very skillful liars, manipulators, and masters at shifting blame.

KPC

From: Rocky
20-Jan-18

Rocky's Link
This won't matter much. No its not prescription drugs.

From: BIG BEAR
20-Jan-18
So your link shows that there were roughly 20,000 overdose deaths in the U.S. Related to prescription pain killers in 2015.... And roughly 13,000 heroin overdose deaths in the same year.....

That's surprising to me... I would have guessed it would be the other way around.....

Regardless.... It's pointless to argue about which is more of a problem...... They are both clearly a huge problem....

And I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the numbers on the increase for 2016 and 2017.......

From: BIG BEAR
20-Jan-18
One of the main differences between prescription pain killers and heroin in my mind is.....

Where does someone get a prescription from ? Their doctor ? Maybe they procure some from their parents prescription... or other family member...... or a friend..........

Where does someone get heroin from ?? They buy it from a lowlife street drug dealer....

Which is easier for a middle class kid to obtain ???

From: K Cummings
20-Jan-18
BB:

It's one thing to say that XX % of overdose deaths were related to "prescription pain relievers" and XX % was related to "heroin," however like many statistics the devil is often in the details.

What is not being told is of the percentage of people who died from an overdose of "prescription pain relievers", was that prescription for the person who overdosed, or if so, did they take them in the manner in which prescribed.

If Johnny steals a bottle of Vicodin from his parents medicine cabinet and sells it to Suzie who proceeds to crush it, snort it, and OD at a party, that is going to show up as an overdose from "prescription pain medication." Every bit as illicit as if she had been shooting heroin that she bought on the street.

However, when we read that Suzie died of an overdose of "prescription pain relievers," the implication is that Suzie surely must have inadvertently gotten sucked in and addicted when she had her wisdom teeth removed, broke her finger playing volleyball, or whatever other innocent reason. Yes, there most certainly are those, but there are just as many that were just looking for kicks at a party.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
20-Jan-18
For sure.... I'm sure that a lot of the prescription overdoses were people that weren't even prescribed the medication in the first place....

From: Rocky
20-Jan-18
BB,

Everybody is SURE but is obviously taking a guess from their experience which is limited I would hope and pray. I talk to these people, week in and week out, working people that you would never dream was addicted to doctor prescribed opioids, until they realized there was no way out on their own. Heroine is a distant last in strength and power to addict compared to Percocet, Perkadan, Oxycodone or Oxycottin (THE ABSOLUTE KING AND MOST POWERFUL) which are all is pharmaceutical.

I am being adamant about this because I would hope somebody, anybody, just one person believes me, and I freighten them half to death about this inconceivable destructive monsters and they say, no way, I will smash my big toe with a hammer first to deflect even the thought of use. Stay away from these devils because they are always in the shadows just waiting for the unsuspecting.

The Rock

From: BIG BEAR
20-Jan-18
It was released that Tom Petty died of an accidental overdose..... but I did not hear what he overdosed on....

From: K Cummings
20-Jan-18
"The Los Angeles County coroner confirmed Friday that Petty's cause of death was a "multisystem organ failure" due to mixed drug intoxication, including fentanyl, oxycodone, temazepam, alprazolam, citalopram, acetylfentanyl and despropionyl fentanyl."

KPC

From: Solo
20-Jan-18
Be careful with ibuprofen & other NSAID's as well (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs). Being plagued with severe chronic pain from motorcycle wrecks, work & sports related injuries, I took too many ibu's everyday for several years until they caught up to me in March of 2008. Doctor had been encouraging me for years to go on an opioid therapy regimen, but I refused to due to the side effects & whatnot.

Eventually the NSAID's ate a hole thru the duodenal portion of my stomach (perforated ulcer), which is basically the end of the stomach that feeds the food into the small intestines once that food has been digested sufficiently. Nearly died....

Surgeon said I would've been far better off taking opioid pain pills than the NSAID's, and that NSAID injuries & deaths were reaching near epidemic levels. She said she had performed 3 emergency surgeries like mine in the past month.

From: BIG BEAR
21-Jan-18
I'm back to work on Tuesday after having back surgery on Dec. 11th.... I took my prescribed pain meds for about 2 weeks as prescribed.... then stopped taking it.... the rest will be properly disposed of....

From: Rocky
21-Jan-18
BB, "If you get the feeling JUST one more and that is it" comes over you that is the red flag and the immediate STOP sign. If you are on 5/325 purchase a pill cutter for $6.00 and cut them in half , take your next "need" dose which would now be 2.5/162. The body will react and accept accordingly but takes a little time to fully adjust. The adjustment can be handled and hardly noticed unless the pain is severe and chronic and breaks you. Once halved and accepted your next step is longer intervals between doses even as little as I hr. and keep extending it. Many people will skip an entire dose when they cut and the next dose settles them right in. Cut them again from 2.5/162 to 1.25/81 for a week or less. At this rate the game is over and won and you will not need them anymore because your body has now fully adjusted and realized the fix is not coming. Your withdrawal symptoms will be negligible. This is a biological game of deception and tricks and the one who tricks the most wins. If your medication is 10mg or more every 6 hrs. the cut system works but requires a bit of patience. Some people who heavily abused ( we're talking 60 mg at a shot I talked to cut cold turkey with no help ,nothing, no Methadone.. They said it was a nightmare of torture and they could not leave their house for weeks. It can be done at the high rate of mg's but few can withstand it.

Good Luck and don't look back. You are giving yourself and your family a gift. I applaud your decision.

21-Jan-18
i wonder how they know petty overdose was accidental, i think he took the drugs on purpose.

From: K Cummings
21-Jan-18
Kentuckybowhunter:

I think they mean "accidental" as opposed to suicide (intentional). I don't think ingesting fentanyl, oxycodone, temazepam, alprazolam, citalopram, acetylfentanyl and despropionyl fentanyl simultaneously could be considered an accident. The only accident was that he died from it.

KPC

From: SteveD
21-Jan-18
So what and hell would be viable solutions to cleaning up the mess and and also addressing the criminal minded drug seeking element thats a big negative factor in the community and this problem. So far from reading many of the posts its a back n forth "wait till you have it" or "you don't understand", jive. Why does this"epidemic" seem to be so prevalent here but not in other developed nations? Is Pain and the so called treatment only a US problem on the scale discussed?

From: Rocky
21-Jan-18

Rocky's Link
Read the entire article. This was 2015. Now it has exploded exponentially.

The Rock

From: Rocky
21-Jan-18

Rocky's Link
Check out how long your symtoms could possibly lasts. This is no joke people it is as real as the sun.

The Rock

From: K Cummings
21-Jan-18
SteveD:

I don't know the answer to your question but to keep things in perspective, I looked up comparative death rates per 100k people and according to this source, it would appear that compared to "drug use" (6.96 people per 100,000), more people die from traffic accidents (9.99 per 100k), about the same from "falls" (6.27 per 100k) and substantially less than cancer (130.74 per 100k) and coronary artery disease (77.97 per 100k).

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/drug-use/by-country/

KPC

From: SteveD
21-Jan-18
Rocky thanks for the links, the first one especially.

K Cummings, unfortunately real familiar with the cancer stat.Wife passed away with horrific stomach cancer and only requested any kind of "painkiller" her last day here, I know as I took care of her.

I've got real strong feelings about abusers of pain meds, and for the better will keep my sentiments about them off this site.

From: Rocky
21-Jan-18
Steve, I am sincerely sorry for your loss.

The Rock

From: slade
21-Jan-18
I do not know why anybody is so worried, kicking an opioid addiction is like quitting nicotine from what has been posted above, millions upon millions have quit nicotine.....

From: K Cummings
21-Jan-18
"I do not know why anybody is so worried, kicking an opioid addiction is like quitting nicotine from what has been posted above, millions upon millions have quit nicotine....."

Just like any other addiction, some people kick it on their own, some people require help, some people kick it and subsequently relapse, some people die from the effects of it, and some people live with it until they die of something else.

What exactly is your point?

KPC

21-Jan-18
Christmas day 2012, we awaited my mother in law to answer her phone. She wouldn't. So, we went to check on her and found her DEAD. She had over dosed on a fentanyl patch. In which she had bought off the street due to her teeth "hurting" her. She was a chronic abuser of many of the opiods illegally. This time the pills, with the increased time released fentanyl, due to a faulty patch killed her. It seems that she wasn't satisfied with the medicaid prescription she had been given for years. Now, many will say that she got hooked on a prescription. She didn't. Before that it was alcohol. She was simply a depressed individual that chose being high anyway she could be versus truly dealing with her problems.

I have a step son that abuses them. He has never has a prescription for them to become hooked through prescription use. He just chooses to get high and escape reality because he is a dead beat.

I tell you about this not for sympathy. I could tell you of a half dozen other cases within close family that I could add to that, if that were the case. So, understand that isn't the reason. What is the reason has to do with how these were/are two totally different people. In different situations. They are on both sides of what is being rationalized as the problem. The one thing they both share though and, they share with every single opioid addict, is their willingness to choose to take them to the point they become a problem.

Most all of the addicts were/are good, decent people. No one is denying that. What is being lost in all this is the personal responsibility each human is responsible for. When you watch a loved one laying in their death bed dying from cancer, you soon realize these pills are not evil. They have a very good purpose. And, when you have taken some prescribed and, know for yourself that they aren't some kind of magical evil just waiting to suck you in, you realize again that every single addict has worked to become that.

Don't blame the doctors. As I stated before, our own government is responsible for more of these pills on the streets and more unmonitored abuse of these drugs then any other agency. Their government policy plans allow for 235 of these pills to be prescribed to anyone on medicaid, medicare, or a vet patient/per month. They have no checks like general insurance when doctors prescribed them. So, you get the poor and the elderly alike, given a fortune of these things a month to sell for big money. And, that is what they did/do. What makes you think government policy is going to fix this?

Rock, I applaud you for giving your time to help your fellow man. I understand your feelings. There are people like you describe that make up those statistics. However, there has never been nor ever will be a human that ever takes them that doesn't make the choice to become and addict. I live around and with this crap daily. And, have yet to meet an "innocent addict". They all made that choice for themselves. God Bless men

22-Jan-18
Thank you Justin, for injecting some reality into this discussion. And I'm sorry for your troubles.

So many of you Monday morning quarterbacks seem to know so much. Few of you have had to deal with patients in front of you begging for help and relief from pain. Few of you have had to look a person in the eyes and try and gauge how reliable they are to tell the truth and their actual need. Few of you have had the responsibility to be that person that is either going to make a difference or not. And few of you have had to deal with the the outcomes that are disproportionately good, but still some that are bad because as a human, you still have to make a decision and you can't make them all right, all the time.

There are a few bad apples, but in general, most of us are doing our best and doing a good job. For many people working in the US today, a poor decision means something inanimate breaks. When we screw up, someone dies. We are not Jesus Christ. We make the best decisions we can based on what we know. It's not always right. And everyone dies... sometimes there's not a damn thing we can do when someone is Hell bent on screwing themself over.

A lot of this, rests not on our shoulders, but on the shoulders of people who decide to be pieces of shit. And it may sound bitter, but we spend an incredible amount of our time and effort on pieces of shit who make horrible decisions and I'm sorry, but those poor decisions are on them. I'll take responsibility for my bad decisions and I go to bed seeing the faces of those that I wasn't good enough to save. But I won't take the heat for people who KNOW that what they're doing is against medical advice and do it anyways. A lot of these accidental overdoses aren't pieces of shit, but they're still grown adults who know they're making a decision that is not only against medical advice, but often times against the law. Is there no such thing as personal responsibility anymore? If I trip, is it the curb's fault?

And that's what the bulk of drug abusers are. There are a bunch of good people who get caught up and are weak, but I've been dealing with these people for decades. Drug abusers are drug abusers are drug abusers. For the most part, they shrug off being upstanding citizens and make very poor decisions. These poor decisions often times lead them to accidental overdose. It's rare anymore to see someone who had a legitimate acute injury dying of accidental overdose. It's people who did not follow medical advice or became addicted and sought drugs their bodies wanted because they were addicted, not because they needed them. And most of these ODs are people taking more than what was prescribed, getting meds from multiple docs, lying to docs, getting drugs off the street, mixing alcohol with them which is says right on the bottle not to do, etc.

The other thing that is not understood is how the govt and the medical organizations came in 20 years ago and pushed us to over treat pain. The US govt made pain the "5th vital sign." States, such as where I practiced till a few years ago, California, actually made it a state law that you had to treat pain. If a patient was in pain and you didn't treat it, you were subject to the state penal code. Can you imagine how that affected us? Adding state sanction into our daily thought process?

I could go on and on. All I know, is that if people could walk a day in the shoes of a prescriber, I think a lot of people with an opinion would have their eyes opened.

From: K Cummings
22-Jan-18

K Cummings's Link
WVM & IWA:

Very good points all.

I don't think there are any easy answers to this problem as there is probably equal amounts of blame to go around.

I am confident of one thing though. The federal government, in their infinite wisdom, are masters at shifting blame for problems that they have, at least in part, created themselves.

When Medicare and Medicaid started tying reimbursements to pain management satisfaction surveys, this "epidemic" seems to be in large part one of unintended consequences.

"What pains me most as a physician is the knowledge that this epidemic is largely man-made, fueled by federal regulations linking pain management to Medicare reimbursement."

"Put simply, the opioid epidemic is the result of a massive shift in public policy surrounding pain management, introduced by an array of special-interest groups."

As is often the case, the only thing government entities and politicians can do is look for a deep pockets entity to clean up the mess they helped create.

"Rather than admitting that the current crisis is the result of unintended consequences, state attorneys general are hunting for deep-pocketed scapegoats to offset their states’ drug-treatment costs. Attempting to replicate the success of the coalition of state attorneys general who successfully sued “Big Tobacco” in the 1990s, eight state and local governments have filed lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies that produce opioid pain killers. Each suit is slightly different, but the central allegation is the same: As Mississippi attorney general Jim Hood has argued, “Pharmaceutical companies have made billions of dollars in profits by misrepresenting to tens of millions of doctors and patients the significant dangers of prescription opioids.” The move to treat the pharmaceutical industry like the tobacco industry misses the mark. This is not to deny that pharmaceutical companies have played a role; I firmly believe that there should never be another FDA-approved opioid approved that does not have an abuse-deterrent formulation. (In September the chair of the president’s opioid commission announced a partnership with the pharmaceutical industry to boost the development of non-addictive medicines.) But we need to recognize these lawsuits for what they are: a billion-dollar lawsuit lottery for the plaintiffs’ bar that ignores the government’s own role in the genesis of the crisis."

KPC

From: HA/KS
22-Jan-18
So, a big part of the problem is that it is too easy to get these drugs, people who are prone to abuse get them legally and sometimes illegally, get addicted, and die, or at least become non-productive and expensive members of society.

I have an idea, let's make more mind-altering drugs easier to get.

From: BIG BEAR
22-Jan-18
I'll drink to that Henry.......

From: slade
22-Jan-18
Thank goodness for medical marijuana...

From: Mike B
28-Jan-18

Mike B's Link
Looks like my county is taking things to an entirely new level.

From: K Cummings
28-Jan-18

K Cummings's Link
I think you are likely to see a lot more of that Mike B.

As was stated before,

"Rather than admitting that the current crisis is the result of unintended consequences, state attorneys general are hunting for deep-pocketed scapegoats to offset their states’ drug-treatment costs."

Sadly, government entities are famous for helping to create problems and then expect the private sector fund and fix them.

This is, in part, why prescription drugs cost what they do.

KPC

28-Jan-18
^^^^^^^^^^^BINGO^^^^^^^^^^.

From: HA/KS
28-Jan-18
Anyone cheering for the cases against drug companies should not be surprised when ammo and arms companies are all ran out of business by similar lawsuits.

From: K Cummings
29-Jan-18
Again Henry, the law of unintended consequences.

KPC

From: Hawkarcher
29-Jan-18
More observations About opioids. I’ve not read this whole thread so sorry if this has been mentioned. I’ve noticed the people I’ve treated lately who admit to being drug addicts- in recovery, who’ve not asked for narcotics- spend a lot of time talking about pain. Tooth pain. Knee pain. Saw my doctor earlier to tell him m about this pain. I think there’s a personality trait or just a tolerance issue that contributes to wanting relief. I say this because I try to understand what makes a person get dependent on opioids.

From: Hawkarcher
29-Jan-18
Point is not everyone is looking to get high and party. Maybe there’s something else less insidious in a lot of cases. Ran across it today twice.

From: HA/KS
30-Jan-18
There is no way for one person to know what another's pain actually feels like. Some seem to be more able to put up with pain, but possibly their pain just isn't as intense and they are not "tougher." How can we know?

From: K Cummings
30-Jan-18
"Point is not everyone is looking to get high and party. Maybe there’s something else less insidious in a lot of cases."

I don't think there is any doubt about this, at least not in my mind. In my opinion, when it comes to something like this you can throw all the generalizations out the window, including the one that suggests that every opioid prescription is a ticking time bomb that is just waiting to hook the innocent and convert them into heroin addicts.

Just like alcohol, there are millions upon millions of people that use it responsibly and never become addicted, and some people, for reasons unknown to anyone, including themselves, can't seem to do that.

KPC

From: HA/KS
31-Jan-18
Just learned that my distant family was directly and tragically impacted by this. Young (40's) woman took in her nephew to try to help him. He was a druggie and didn't change. She finally had to have him removed from her home by the police. Some time later, he returned and murdered her.

Not sure that I ever met either of them (definitely not the nephew). Still sad.

From: Hawkarcher
01-Feb-18
Very sad HA. Sorry for your family’s loss.

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