Contributors to this thread:
As long as it's legal - but it's not!
Marijuana use for recreational purposes (and most medical as well) has never been legal in the United States in any of our lifetimes - in spite of what leftists, libertarians, and anarchists want us to believe.
From the link (not officially announced as nearly as I can tell)
"It looks like the new year is starting off with more than just a "weather bomb" hitting the East Coast. Attorney General Jeff Sessions is apparently going to drop another kind of bomb, aimed at the legalized marijuana industry now flourishing in a number of states."
HA/KS - it certainly is in many states and will become nationally. I am against it but I am also against gambling and alcohol. Too much money to be made and the tax guys want their cut. We are talking about something that might be bigger than alcohol.
Sage, Kansas could open a season on Whooping Cranes, but it would still be a violation of federal law. It is the same with legalized MJ. It is a violation of federal law even though states claim that they have made it legal.
Must suck to be a Colorado Dope Pusher today!
State law does not trump federal law. Never has, never will.
For it to become legal anywhere, it would need change at the federal level.
HA/KS you are gonna be in trouble for starting this thread when the drug heads see it.
I think you are getting a bit confused. It's legal within state boundaries but you can't transport across state lines. They are all cash business because you can't use credit cards to purchase because those are federally backed. However, it's 100% legal within state boundaries of those states that have passed laws.
The IRS gladly collects their taxes.
Believe me drive through Oregon and Washington and you will see hundreds of shops selling with guards (since it's all cash business).
The problem with you Whooping Crane example is it crosses state lines which becomes a federal issue.
That’s not true Sage. Marijuana is illegal to sell or possess at the federal level with few exceptions. The justice department under Obama issued directives to essentially not enforce the federal law, effectively nullifying federal law, which paved the way for the States to handle it. Some states have made it legal under state law, others have not.
The new order will be to roll back the Obama era protections, paving the way for enforcement of the federal laws. It’s a directive against state’s rights, for federal oversight, and against personal liberty and freedom.
When asked about the possibility that his AG pick might try to shut down marijuana legalization.
“I wouldn’t do that, no,” Trump said. “I think it should be up to the states, absolutely.
Just another example of his hypocrisy and lack of any ideology. I don't have a dog in this fight, I could care less what people smoke, eat, inject. Personal responsibility rules the day. BUT, I'm just waiting for the heads of all the "states rights" republicans to explode. Because you still care about states rights, right?
"It’s a directive against state’s rights, for federal oversight, and against personal liberty and freedom."
interesting post liz, which do you prefer? unequivocally, that is, with no waiver....fed or state?
Hilarious that the same guys extolling the rights of states over the federal government on firearms and other issues talk out the other side of their mouth when it comes to mj.
With some caveats, I'm in the camp of a small federal footprint and leaving these decisions to the state or, in lots of cases, to individuals. I would call myself Libertarian with some exceptions. The notable exceptions I have to this are federal lands and certain social safety nets. I would also add certain science/research programs.
atheist from Boone. You are a LYING FRAUD. You questioning HYPOCRISY, look in the mirror. And another comment from you, THE PHONY. 8^)
So am I, and so are most people here, except when it comes to the killer weed.
But firearms are explicitly addressed whereas narcotics are not and beyond popular belief, the interstate commerce clause puts the regulation on firearms - the "why" of we can't possess a fully auto without special permit.
A state can make a law more strict, can't take away from it or hinder a right because if it.
I was watching the panelists on Brett Bair's show a second ago. The context of what Sessions did was reinstate the prosecutorial discretion to all of the federal AG's out there that the Bamster took away. They now can pursue individuals or groups on a case by case basis. It didn't sound like there was going to be a rush to go out and enforce fed law today or tomorrow. Of course this could be the feds getting their ducks in a row first.
Alcohol does more social harm to this country, results in more accidental and medical deaths, more broken homes, more assaults, more morbidity and mortality, than does Marijuana. And yes. It (marijuana) is certainly against Federal law, whereas alcohol is not. Same story with tobacco.
I'm not going to say that marijuana is "ok" for society, but if there are things that should be "illegal" as marijuana is, for the good of the country, in the order of how they kill people, it would be alcohol, tobacco, and sugar/corn syrup, in that order, with marijuana being somewhere down the list after automobiles.
And no, I don't use marijuana. I'm no apologist. I'm just pointing out reality.
People like to pick on marijuana as a societal evil and conveniently ignore alcohol and tobacco. Why is that? Could it be that social norms cloud political judgement?
Either alcohol and tobacco should be illegal or marijuana should be legal. The current laws are double standards.
Nope, I’m still “Not tired of winning”. In my opinion, this is a great move.
It will be legal on a Federal level within 5 years.
Good for him. I was happy to see Cannabis stocks plummeted today. I don't care what anyone says. There is nothing good coming from this insane push to legalizing pot.
I try to eliminate the illogical and unprincipled from my thinking. That stated, there's no reason why mj should be illegal while alcohol gets legally sold. Frankly, the inverse would make more sense.
Beyond proven medical benefits, there are plenty of positives that come from having marijuana legal. More jobs, reduced taxpayer costs, increased tax revenues, etc. We tolerate the negative externalities associated with alcohol which in my opinion are far greater than those of associated with marijuana.
That said, I don't feel that either the positives are overwhelmingly positive, nor are the negatives overwhelmingly negative. In these cases, I feel it's best to just let people do what they want to do.
The Volstead Act tried to make booze illegal, and it didn't work out very well. Is this a step for marijuana to become legal as well?
I would submit that social harm is not done with marijuana the way the others listed above are because of it's very limited use, comparatively...
It would be interesting to see if this cuts down on illegal grows. Some say it will but since they tax it heavily illegal grown pot may be way cheaper causing even more illegal grows.
I have no issue with people eating or smoking what they want. I am no fan of the pot culture that has grown in CO since legalization. We had plenty of stoners before, its just amplified. My Sheriff is seeing a huge jump in transient and homeless people. He said they tell him that legalized pot is a big reason they are here.
Once in a while the forest rangers spend a day at a ski area writing tickets. Ski areas are for the most part on federal land. I expect it to be legal at the federal level shortly. Can't ignore the trend. A lot folks here are surprised to know that they can't legally own firearms if they use marijuana.
I don't understand how you guys would rather have every state have their own rules and laws for the substance than just have one federal law that also controls the way they are taxed which is what I am most concerned with.
If you do not think most states (especially those that drive our economy) aren't going to legalize you are kidding yourself.
I hate the substance (alcohol and tobacco too) but if we don't track it federally it will be difficult to enforce and maximize tax revenue.
Also, many states will miss out on the enormous revenue since states do not have to share. That fact alone hurts most conservative states. Yes this is all about the benjamins.
I support States rights. Our constitutional system of checks and balances presumes that the states will resist federal regulation with which they disagree. As more and more states disagree with federal mj policy pressure will mount to modify or abandon that policy.
You can whine about prohibition all you like but it will soon be moot. The SCOTUS legislated from the bench to tie this issue to the commerce clause in the first place.
Good points gflight.
This move will not change the amount of mj consumed. It will only result in lower tax revenues for the states in which it's legal.
Session sits on his ass and does nothing about Uranium One, the dossier, Hillary's email scandals and the FBI corruption then he wastes his time on this. Saw him on TV today saying "good people don't smoke marijuana". What a ridiculous statement. He's worthless and should be fired.
When I grew in the 90s, I could make $6400 pound. In 2008, I was getting $5600 a pound. Today after ten years of legal weed, I'm getting $2200 a pound.
I am not sure I am upset with todays announcement. I am going to make more money because the risk factor increased marginally.....sort of. From a freedom standpoint it sucks balls. Typical Sessions/Trump.
If they really pursue this it will cost 200k taxpayers their jobs in the west and will throw every legal state into a localized recession. Typical Trump.
Colorado's US Attorney released a statement today: “The United States Attorney’s Office in Colorado has already been guided by these principles in marijuana prosecutions – focusing in particular on identifying and prosecuting those who create the greatest safety threats to our communities around the state,” Troyer said in a statement. We will, consistent with the Attorney General’s latest guidance, continue to take this approach in all of our work with our law enforcement partners throughout Colorado,” he continued.
I talked to a couple of my old jiu jitsu students on the north metro drug taskforce and they tell me this means nothing for Colorado. Carry on!
Today I realized I've never given a fuck about the feds. I just deal with what's in front of me.
Until changed, marijuana is classified as a Class I narcotic and falls under federal law no matter what the states legislate. Perhaps if states that have legalized mj had spent more time and effort to work to get the drug's status changed before they went down the road to decriminalization--sort of like putting the cart before the horse. Considering the number of states that now recognize medical marijuana, reclassification would probably have been relatively easy...especially under the Obama choom administration when much of the decriminalization movement occurred.
One cannot compare marijuana to firearms in a discussion of states rights as we have the Constitution and 2A with applies to firearms. Cannabis, OTOH, is regulated under a federal law and not specified in the Constitution.
The rush to equate marijuana as medicine flies in the face that in its crude form it cannot be quantified or dosed. There are many studies that have shown that in its crude form (leaf), it has a negative affect on the maturing brain. The crude form contains numerous cannabanoids and components that may well have medical benefits. However, the smoke also contains the same tars and irritants found in tobacco...we may have a future of cannabis related lung disease in the future comparable to that has been found with tobacco. Remember, at one time cigarette smoking was considered beneficial.
I family friends works for a large grower who has interest in Medicinal properties of the cannabanoids etc without the THC. They claim it helps with the aches and pains, but do not have any studies to this date to prove it, even after all of these years of claims. The funny part is, very very few buyers are interested in it without the THC. The brunt of the revenue is their boutique strains for different highs.
I do know mj stops sea sickness and nausea for cancer patients and I have no problem with cancer patients having access.
So if marijuana is illegal federally..... But the states that have legalized it like Colorado..... What is the federal government going to do to change that ?? Pass a law ???
The bottom line is that the Federal Government has to get State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies to ENFORCE the laws that they are currently ignoring.....
We'll see what happens.....
"When asked about the possibility that his AG pick might try to shut down marijuana legalization. “I wouldn’t do that, no,” Trump said. “I think it should be up to the states, absolutely."
Who said Trump wasn't a politician!
So it destroys the economy in a few LWL blue states, big deal, like who really gives a rats ass anyway. They'll have to embrace the Trump doctrine to re-grow their economies, or end up just like Detroit/Chicago/Baltimore.
Sanctuary states are thumbing their nose at federal government the same with legalizing marijuana. Those same states will also remove civil war statues. Another time in history where states thumbed there nose at the federal government.
"So it destroys the economy in a few LWL blue states, big deal, like who really gives a rats ass anyway."
Maybe the people that live there??? But who cares about them? They live in a LWL state so they don't count as real people. Only a moron would post such rubbish. Oh, it's Thumper. Carry on.
End up just like Detroit ?? Don't look now but Detroit is RAPIDLY making a comeback.... The new Little Ceasers Areana and New Town Area is just the start of it.....
Groundbreaking just occurred for the new high rise building that will be the new tallest building in Detroit....
Historic and vacant buildings are being bought up and restored at a record pace by billionaire Dan Gilbert....
And Mayor Duggan is knocking down vacant houses by the thousands to make room for the rebirth of Detroit.....
A new bridge is going to be built in between Detroit and Canada... A new public transportation train the Q Line just began operating......
If you don't know what you're talking about regarding our city then shut up !!!
His statements will not change local growing and selling of weed in Oregon, Washington, or Colorado. There is far to much money coming in from taxes. He stated it to try and scare the new California business. If the feds could find some way to tax it, it would be legal in no time. Here in Oregon and Washington more weed is sold black market than legal. Even with that, Washington is looking at over 700 million, and Oregon 400 milion. Local and state police are not going to follow federal law. To big of a cash cow. It is awesome to go into a shop with 30-40 2 gallon jars of weed, each is different and effects you differently. The medical Marijuana group knows so much about each strain. It is extremely helpful for lots of different ailments. Yes I Do
Alaska has been thumbing it's nose at the Federal Gov over the Federal take over of Fish & Game management in the early 90's. Some Fed Fish & Game laws are contrary to State of Alaska F&G laws. In my area the State Troopers don't inforce those Fed laws and the Fed badges don't enforce State laws that are contrary to the Fed Laws. What's the difference with MJ ? And it's not a cash only business like posted above .... I know of Pot stores in Oregon & Washington that take credit & debit cards.
The feds need to come in to California and make mass busts on the Marijuana grows and shops. Keep doing it until Brown decides being a Sanctuary State wasn’t such a good idea. Or confiscate all the tax money collected off marijuana sales. They need to break his back.
"If you don't know what you're talking about regarding our city then shut up !!!"
You've sure got your work cut out. Is the economy rebuilding Detroit, or are you still using social engineering and my federal tax dollars?
"His statements will not change local growing and selling of weed in Oregon, Washington, or Colorado. There is far to much money coming in from taxes."
Taxes on mj sales, so you're keeping records on illegal drug sales ?...........LOL!
I dont care for the stuff, have no use for it but if we had laws against every immoral thing or act, we would be in a mess because the majority of us would be jailed..including myself. I believe a person has the right to consume what they want unless they are harming another individual. Problem is we have had Big Brother dictating everything in our lives for last 100 yrs , so we dont really realize what real freedom is. Laws against murder, rape, petifilia, theft..are common sense, fundamental laws that are there to protect the our citizens...whatever political or religious belief they may be. Beyond those basic laws we wind up with what w have today...government control. Like the Federal Income Tax, and so called Social Security...it be legal but it's immoral because it is legalized theft and extortion. There is a reason why we had no Federal Income tax before 1918. We all know there has to be taxes to fund the fundamental functions of governemnt. But we dont have to have the type of tax system we have in place to fund the things that are necessary.
I love this country but we really dont know what real freedom is anymore. Research how much money we spend on other countries and domestic and corporate welfare..it's sickining. We should be careful what band wagons we jump on because next time it may be an issue we hold dear that is in jeopardy. I dont agree with a lot of things that go on but the government should stick to the fundamentals.
"You've sure got your work cut out. Is the economy rebuilding Detroit, or are you still using social engineering and my federal tax dollars?"
While I'm sure all govt help is utilized (foolish not to), it is mostly private investment that is driving the transformation, as well as slowly weeding out corrupt officials. So far, it is truly remarkable but just like "draining the swamp," it will take a while.
I have no problem with federal law trumping state laws in the specific areas which were enumerated in the Constitution! However, most of what our federal governement siezes as it own jurisdiction is NOT rightfully theirs.
The complete twisting of the Commerce Clause in order for the federal establishment to sieze more undue power is the perfect example.
If we were anywhere near the intent of the actual law of the land this marijuana situation would not even be an issue.
Mike Coffman makes a concise statement concerning Sessions move on Marijuana
Mike Coffman makes a concise statement concerning Sessions move on Marijuana
States rights champion Mike Coffman stays consistent:
Much of those pictures you posted Thumper look like photo shopped BS off the internet..... and I challenge you to find anything in Detroit that looks remotely like some of those BS pictures.... that is if you have ever even been to Detroit....
One of the worst areas of Detroit.... the Cass Corridor.... has now been transformed into the New Center Area..... thanks to the Illitch family and Billionaire Dan Gilbert.....
So federal money is being used to knock down thousands and thousands of vacant homes in the city...... so what ?? Would you rather see one of the largest cities in America have an amazing rebirth...... or continue to bitch about it being a slum ??
I suppose you don't want any of YOUR Federal dollars to help the City of Flint to fix their water problems either.......
Federal marijuana laws don't mean squat if the Feds can't get State and local Law Enforcement to enforce their laws......
the attorney general is simply trying to force congress to either make the law or enforce the law. you can't have it both ways and govern by executive letter which is what has gone on for years. Obummer simply wrote a letter and told the justice department to lay off......that's not exactly the way we do here in this country.
Mike B's Link
SA is correct...The last administration the president was deciding what laws to enforce and not enforce. The congress is supposed to be responsible for that. The president is supposed to enforce all the laws not decide which ones to enforce.
Edited: Also, someone said something about the commerce clause. The feds can be involved in Colorado's drug business because there is evidence of MJ being moved out of the state. Kansas and Nebraska have both complained about it. Maybe they will need to build a wall around Colorado...8^)
Here ya go Gents...your tax dollars at work.
I wonder what it costs a state to investigate, arrest and book 70 people for having <1oz. of pot? Is this a good investment of your tax dollars, or could that money have been better spent busting murdering MSA13 members, or heroin and meth dealers?
AG Sessions can do as he wishes...won't change my world one bit.
Don't confuse the CF lemmings with facts Mike. They already know mj is the devil's work and should be eliminated at all costs.
Pig Doc is right. We should just elect a king and let the king decide what laws to enforce...of course if he decides to enforce some laws we don't like we will just bitch about it on the internet and if he doesn't enforce some laws we do do like, well, we will just bitch about that too...8^)
Either we get the rule of law working again or we don't. The rules call for congress to make laws and for the executive to enforce them. If you want to change that process, well you should have voted for Hillary then you would have had the same imperial mind set that we had when Obama was running the show...
Henry, here's your quote from the thread on CC reciprocity. You are clearly against the feds involvement in state's jurisdiction:
"It is a bad idea, just like requiring states to allow out of state health insurance companies to sell in their state."
Here's your quote from above on mj:
"Sage, Kansas could open a season on Whooping Cranes, but it would still be a violation of federal law. It is the same with legalized MJ. It is a violation of federal law even though states claim that they have made it legal."
So which is it Henry? Do you believe the feds should be able to dictate to the states or not? Looks to me that you side with the state if it fits your bias but with the feds if it does not. Can't have it both ways.
"Pig Doc is right. We should just elect a king and let the king decide what laws to enforce"
Please show me where I posted that? Reading not one of your skill sets?
I may have interpreted your comments incorrectly. I thought you were implying that SA and I were lemmings because we don't see a problem with what Sessions has done. The 'problem', if there is one, is with the laws that congress passed. The 'fix' needs to come from Congress, not the DOJ or the POTUS...
We cannot continue with an executive branch that arbitrarily decides what laws to enforce and which ones not to enforce...That leads to nothing but anarchy...JMO
You can call marijuana illegal if it makes you feel good......
But the only thing that matters is that it is "Allowed" in states like Colorado and Oregon and soon more states....
The "Industry" at this point is huge and growing..... And I don't think the Attorney General can stop that snowball from rolling...... JMO
BB gets it. And why is Sessions wasting his time on this when there are much bigger fish to fry?
no doubt......so fix the laws.
I really dont think Sessions is spending any appreciable time on this beyond just taking back another Obama BS law/rule. He simply authorized the AGs to ignore Obama's (illegal) directive WRT pot.
"And I don't think the Attorney General can stop that snowball from rolling"
Well, I think there certainly are things that can be done to stop it from rolling. Enforcement of the laws doesn't entirely have to depend on state agencies. That said, I think it would be a stupid political move for one. And as Pig Doc pointed out, is this really where we should be diverting resources?
"Looks to me that you side with the state if it fits your bias but with the feds if it does not"
Pig Doc, you hit the nail on the head. Folks like to blast president's for enacting EO's when it's the other team in power, but praise it when it's their guy. Folks also are quick to deride government overreach and decry the downfalls of big government on certain issues, and are quick to praise the very overreach and large footprint on other issues.
It just goes to show that people aligned with our two main political parties really don't give a damn about how big or small the government footprint is. That government footprint can be huge as long as it's huge in all the ways they prefer it to be big. The Republican party used to be about free markets and personal freedom -- ie, less government oversight. While some of that ideology still rings true, it seems to be equally about populism, protectionism, and the restraint of certain personal freedoms that don't jive with outdated biases.
That's more time than he needed to spend on it. WTF has he done on Uranium one, dossier and FBI corruption?
BTW Spike, you like HA, seem to believe the feds should meddle in the state mj issue but not firearms. Seems completely backwards to me. Firearms are addressed in the 2nd amendment and I don't believe the states should be able to shirk the constitution. Show me where mj is addressed in the constitution.
Seriously Gator ?? Who has the manpower to go into every city in every state that allows marijuana to enforce the Federal Law ?????
The DEA ? The ATF ?? The FBI ?? Nope !!! Not !! No way....
The ONLY way it could ever be enforced is by state and local Law Enforcement.....
Hell....... I'm a cop and I can see the writing on the wall that legalized marijuana is coming to a state near you.....
I'm in favor of MJ not being legal. I believe we have enough problems with substance abuse in this country as it is now.
Well, BB, if they want to enforce it, it is not that difficult. The feds are not going after guys with one bag of weed. They'd go after the pot growers and the shops. I'm aware of a couple of shops own by east coast mobs and south of the border cartels. Some of the stories have been in the local news and some I know because of some people I know.
I can tell you that the BLM is quite busy with illegal grows on federal land here.
But this is Trump saying, like with DACA, the law can't be here and be ignored. Congress, fix it one way or the other. And that is not a bad thing.
Another intellectual, insightful post. Go back to sleep.
"But this is Trump saying, like with DACA, the law can't be here and be ignored. Congress, fix it one way or the other. And that is not a bad thing."
Pot growers can have a full blown operation in the basement of a residential house..... They're all over Michigan now... And Michigan only allows Medical Marijuana....
There's no way any Federal Law Enforcement Agency is going to drop what they are doing to focus all of their attention on chasing marijuana that is being ignored locally.... it ain't happening........
From DL's posted article.......... "The train has already left the station "...............
I believe the war on drugs...any drug....is futile. For God sake....you can get pretty much any drug under the sun including heroin in maximum security federal prison. How could anyone possible think it's possible that law enforcement will ever keep any drug out of circulation. The only sane thing to do is treat the poor SOBS that stupid enough to use that crap.
Pig Doc's Link
I guess I will stop agreeing with you BK if it provokes a personal attack. And a name-caller becoming the class police - please.
Good post SA. I agree. I have posted this link before on the war on drugs and have had several people thank me for posting it. It's a seminar by Russ Jones, a close friend of mine and former Army helicopter pilot that spent his post-military career working for the DEA. Russ does not use drugs nor encourage use but he knows first hand the cost and failure of the war on drugs.
Doc, thanks for shooting at the messenger. All clean misses, but you probably enjoyed using the ammo.
I am in the camp that this is like DACCA and some other things. There are discrepancies between the laws and enforcement. Doc, if you really cared to know my opinion, you would also see the many times I have posted on these threads something like "if it is a law (or rule) enforce it. If it is not worth enforcing, get rid of it."
Laws do not make people moral. I have also posted multiple times the Adams quote that our government will only work for a moral and religious people. As increasing numbers of our people are neither, our government fails. In an attempt to re-establish on orderly society, more and more laws are passed and our government becomes increasingly authoritarian.
Laws may change the behavior of some people, but they do not change hearts.
In the Bible, the purpose of the Old Testament Law was mostly to help people realize their sins. That Law saved nobody. As Jesus came to tell us, hearts must change if we are to be saved.
I do not believe that alcohol, tobacco, or other mind-altering drugs are good for people. There are many other things that are not good for us either. More laws will not make people more moral, though enforcement makes some things more difficult to do.
The post immediately beneath mine was telling me to " go to sleep." A later post followed agreeing with me. Apparently, I fired too fast, and thus, apologize, Pig Doc.
I wish that legalizing it would stop all the illegal grows that destroy public land leave heaps of trash. A friend of mine showed me a booby trap he found while hunting. Briefly they had a piece of 3/4” pipe mounted to a piece of wood and used a rat trap as a trigger. Unfortunately there’s always going to be illegal grows to beat paying taxes just like moonshiners. These are the people they need to go after.
bad karma's Link
"Seriously Gator ?? Who has the manpower to go into every city in every state that allows marijuana to enforce the Federal Law ?????"
Just to reiterate what bk said, it is not the guy on the street with a bag of weed that the DEA agents would be going after. They'd shut down the dispensaries. A quick google search would show you everyone that existed. A half a dozen agents to go in and seize everything and potentially make arrests. I don't see where this would take much in the way of resources if they chose to go that route. Not saying they will, but I don't think it would be as hard as you're suggesting.
There's a case, Wickard v. Filburn, from the FDR days that held that growth of crops solely for a farmer's use impacted interstate commerce and was thus a federal matter.
While I personally believe the commerce clause was incorrectly applied here, it's the law. And under this precedent, yes, a fellow's crop grow is a federal matter.
And I don't think it would be as simple as you are suggesting...... how many cities are there in Colorado ?? After they get done with every store front dispensary in every city and all the paperwork and evidence storage and prosecution and court time..... Then they can start on the dispensarys in people's basements..... Then they can do the same in Oregon..... and California..... and so on and so on and so on......
They'd better drop what they're doing trying to deal with the heroin crisis....... and get busy in Colorado....
Dave, the illegal grows on public land are pretty much a thing of the past up here..it just doesn't make sense for them to take the risk. Due to the commercial growers harvesting larger crops, prices have dropped to the point there's no money in an illegal grow.
As a righteous medical patient, I can legally grow (according to current WA. state laws), however, I can buy it at the dispensary for per gram prices equal to or cheaper what it would cost me to grow it. Running 1000W MH and HPS lamps will make your power bill skyrocket, plus I don't have to do any of the labor needed to properly care for it.
Accepted BK. The "go back to sleep" comment was aimed at the post before yours.
"There are discrepancies between the laws and enforcement"
And you would not say the same about CC laws across the country? But you are opposed to consistency there?
Well, that's a crappy argument. Alcohol laws are different from state to state and it doesn't cause problems. That I can't buy wine in a grocery store here, like I can in Texas, isn't much more than inconvenience. But the gun-travel problem requires me to have Legal Heat on my phone to check the laws of states I pass through.
That being said, while I have plenty of reasons to oppose pot legalization, the national trend is to legalize it. And so, the federal problem needs to be fixed, either to allow or clearly prohibit legal pot.
""Accepted BK. The "go back to sleep" comment was aimed at the post before yours.""
What's the problem Pig Doc, slow day at the local nut house? That why the nurse is letting you play on the computer? I stand by my statement. I can repeat it again if you like.
It’s a self funding inforcement. They go in and confiscate the money and marijuana. Then take it and sell it to another state. California has been doing this procedure with taxes they collect for years. They just doubled the tax on gas. Before the ink was dry they already diverted money somewhere else.
Yes sir, its all about the money. Unfortunately some people will have no problem smoking pot to excess and that will be where the problems start. I would think there would be enough people killed in DWI/DUI auto crashes, legalizing marijuana will add to innocent deaths in those type of auto crashes.
"legalizing marijuana will add to innocent deaths in those type of auto crashes."
You are by far the stupidest person that posts on the CF. Do some homework on the topic, if you can read.
"But the gun-travel problem requires me to have Legal Heat on my phone to check the laws of states I pass through."
That's my point. I don't understand why guys like HA, Spike and others are against consistent CC firearms laws across the country but want federal authority enforced on mj laws.
It is kind of ironic........... To want the Government to keep its hands off your guns........
But to want the Government to keep someone else's marijuana illegal.....
2A- carry is a constitutional right. Mj sale and consumption is not. I don't think that's a difficult concept. BTW, what exact opinion did I express on federal MJ laws on this thread?
"Do some homework on the topic, if you can read."
From the link "My first concern is traffic accidents, since marijuana is known to impair judgement. Statistics from Colorado since recreational marijuana was legalized show a doubling of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) – the substance in marijuana that gets users high – in the blood of those involved in fatal car accidents.
This is concerning. And though alcohol impairs a driver much more, THC stays in the bloodstream longer. If the two are combined, as they sometimes are, the risk is magnified.
A recent study from the Columbia University School of Public Health found that while alcohol increased the risk of causing a fatal car crash five times, testing positive for pot increased it by 62 percent. Those drivers who had both pot and alcohol in their blood at the time of a fatal crash were six times more likely to have caused the accident."
"It is kind of ironic........... To want the Government to keep its hands off your guns........ But to want the Government to keep someone else's marijuana illegal....."
Not really ironic. One is codified and enumerated in the BOR, the other is not.With that said, it comes down to this, either enforce the law or strike it. One is the presidents job, the other belongs to congress.
FWIW, I've never, ever, seen a fight break out because of smoking weed.... unless of course somebody's bogarting the Doritios. Strike the law. Go after the meth and heroin dealers.
Give it a few years... Breath tests that detect THC levels are being developed for use by law enforcement officers......
It should be the same as for drinking and driving.... Do it... get caught.... Go to jail....
Here's what you posted Henry. If that is not "an opinion on federal mj laws" I don't know what is.
" It is the same with legalized MJ. It is a violation of federal law even though states claim that they have made it legal."
I realize mj impairs drivers. DUH. It's still illegal to smoke weed and drive, as it should be. My point is that legalization does nothing in terms of usage. As I posted previously, if you bother to read my posts, having the feds suddenly declare they are cracking down on states where it is currently legal will do NOTHING to usage.
You still haven't answered my question on your inconsistent views on federal authority. You don't want federal authority on firearms possession, which is provided by the constitution but you want federal meddling in a clearly state issue, mj regulation. I'm waiting to hear your logic, not some crap that driving while high causes fatal accidents. Any dumb ass knows that.
Marijuana regulation is not "clearly a state issue" since there is a conflict between state and federal law.
The important statistic Henry would be............ Has the number of fatal car crashes increased since marijuana was legalized in Colorado.....
We will see. You already posted that the same issue exists with alcohol and you see no problem with it. If you are OK with alcohol laws varying from state to state, why not mj?
Firearms ownership, on the other hand, is granted by the constitution.
Actually, DWI stats for THC would have to control for ACOH, first. How many DWIs are causally alcohol related and the THC was in the system but not contributory?
Here’s a Denver Post article on the subject.
It's my understanding that a blood test is currently required to show recent ingestion of MJ, which is up for debate on whether or not that person can be considered to be 'high' on it at the blood draw. If they're able to detect that with a breath test, then that's an extraordinary feat that I hope can be accomplished soon.
Overhearing others talk, drinking a few beers and chasing it with a few hits of the super weed these states are selling will send a guy to the top of cloud nine for a period of time. Sounds very dangerous to me when mixed with driving a vehicle. Far worse than just drinking & driving...
The article says the numbers cannot be definitively linked to legalized pot.......
As stated by Owl..... If there's a fatal crash.... You have to not only look for Marijuana in the system.... but alcohol as well..... So statistics must be developed showing how many of the drivers involved in a fatal crash that had marijuana in their system..... ALSO had been drinking........ I will go out on a limb and say that a high percentage will have been drinking too......
The bottom line is driving under the influence of either is illegal...... And tests are being developed to make it much easier for Police Officers to arrest drivers for driving with marijuana in their system....
"" I'm waiting to hear your logic, not some crap that driving while high causes fatal accidents. Any dumb ass knows that. ""
Evidently you don't get it. Innocent people dying from other people's irresponsible excessive use MJ is the reason why it's illegal. And it should stay that way. Somebody give Dr. Dumbass his meds back before he hurts himself or an innocent bystander, the mad so called Dr is losing what little mind he has left.
I'm very happy those tests are being developed Big Bear.
I made it very clear that driving under the influence is illegal and should be. This has nothing to do with the feds usurping states laws. Adults are communicating sleepy. Go away until you learn how to read.
"Here's what you posted Henry. If that is not "an opinion on federal mj laws" I don't know what is. " It is the same with legalized MJ. It is a violation of federal law even though states claim that they have made it legal.""
Doc, what part of what I posted is opinion rather than fact? Have some states passed laws to make it legal? Is it still federally illegal? The answer to neither question is an opinion.
You still haven't answered my question Henry. You started the thread and from your previous posts on this topic it's quite apparent how you feel so stop playing games. Thought you were a straight shooter. Apparently not.
Bigbear is right. The moment someone endangers the public being intoxicated or high on drugs then that individual gives up their right to endulge. The same with firearms, the moment an individual commits robbery or murder they give up their 2nd amendment rights. Sitting on your porch smoking a bag of weed or drinking a gallon of whiskey is one thing...but endangering others is a whole other issue.
If we want real freedom we need to get back to the original intent of the founders...most of them except for the Alexander Hamilton types, wanted a government with personal responsibilities of the citizens. That all changed at an early stage after the signing of the constitution. Just because we have laws on the books, or even amendments, doesn't mean they are right...they may be legal or constitutional in the technical sense but the question is do the laws or amendments contradict the rights already provided in the Constitution. The 19th amendment gave us prohibition, but did congress or the states really have the right to prohibit individuals rights? Yes, the 19th amendment was a legal amendment but should it have ever happened to begin with? I dont drink, or smoke weed but I feel a person should have the freedom to do so if they choose.
I dont agree with the Hindu, Buddism, or Islam but I think a person has the right to worship how they choose until they cross the line of harming others in the name of that religion. Once the Federal,state or local goverments go beyond basic common sense laws it never ends up well for "we the people". I dont think I should have to pay a tax in order to keep my home but it's the law. It's the law because we the people have become accustomed to our tyranical government and we think this intrusion is the norm. I think Thomas Jefferson had a fear that without safeguards we will fall victim to a tyranical government.
The left wants to dictate our lives through control in various ways just as some on the right do but in different ways,I'm speaking of the Rino Republicans. Heck, I dont think I should have to wear a seatbelt as a legal adult. But somebody decided they should make choices for me.
Ha...... That's a good one TG...... in my state I have to wear a seatbelt in my three quarter ton truck...... but a guy can ride a motorcycle without a helmet...... what sense does that make ??
Also...... It's illegal to drive under the influence of prescription opiates too........
Should we make them illegal ???
Let’s cut to the chase. This isn’t about some right wingers hating mj. This is about getting ‘a win’ for sessions and trump. Racking them up is the name of the game for this administration and their fans. Want to drill oil in pristine US waters? DONE. Oil spills? What’s that?!? Want to take states rights? Enforce federal laws on mj! States withholding private voter info from feds? How dare they! The federal govt demands that info for a bogus claim that 3 million illegals voted! It’s clear this administration is a laugh a minute.
atheist. You are a LYING FRAUD. You are the one that is a laugh a minute. You left one out. PRESIDENT TRUMP pi$$ing off a LYIN FRAUD, named atheist, ryan from boone. Means Trump is doing a GREAT JOB.
atheist."bogus claim that 3 million illegals voted." Last i read, they were saying that citizens were accidentally checking the NON-CITIZEN box, by mistake. Ya, RIGHT. Sounds like you atheist, another BS lie. How many times did you vote, since you have thirty some FAKE REGISTRATIONS???? Proving once again, you are a LYING FRAUD.
Animas River spill. Courtesy Obama's EPA
Animas River spill. Courtesy Obama's EPA
"Want to drill oil in pristine US waters? DONE. Oil spills? What’s that?!?" You seem to forget this little gem from the Obama admin. Best part? It was intentional.
It's ironic how the environmental extremist complain about high fuel prices and the high cost of living but the reason we have high prices in the libersl pockets across the country is because of their choking down of the economy with high taxation and unecessary regs. I do have a problem with pipelines running through water supplies though. Though I dont know the details of the situation it seems risky for the water supply.
I say we should be a self sufficient nation not dependant on other countries...not saying we shouldn't trade with other countries but we shouldn't rely on them for anything.
I do believe in using common sense when it comes to environmental concerns...not the crap Obama imposed on companies which did absolutely nothing to improve the environment.
Environmental concerns are a whole separate topic......
But I would add in the pipeline on the bottom of the Mackinaw Straits that is aging and carries oil out of Canada across a 5 mile stretch on the bottom of Lake Huron and Lake Michigan (The straits connects the 2 lakes)....
Our Republican Governor Snyder hasn't put an end to it (The Flint water crisis also occurred on his watch)....... President Obama didn't shut it down.... and neither has President Trump.......
It's a disaster waiting to happen..... when that line bursts we'll have an oil spill in the Great Lakes like we had with the Exxon Valdez.....
The line is known as "Line 5" and was built in 1953 and today carries over 500,000 barrels of oil a day right through the Great Lakes....
""Adults are communicating sleepy.""
Says the guy who should locked up in a padded room, so doesn't hurt himself or others. I also made it very clear MJ should and still be illegal unless it's determined my a legitmate Dr of medicine for health purposes only. Recreactional use of MJ just for fun should be and should stay illegal.
Legitimate Dr. for health purposes only........ Ha !!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a JOKE !!!!!!!!! Who gets to determine what is legitimate ?????? Please send them to Michigan...... Because if you have a hundred bucks in your pocket you can EASILY find a Dr. to write you a script for marijuana.......
It is such a freaking joke here they might as well legalize it and tax it.......
Yep, pipelines through water supplies just dont make good sense regardless of your political stance.
The fed gov't is not usurping states rights with a crackdown on mj (if they did one) for not recognizing a state's legality of the substance. State law cannot supersede federal law, it is the reverse. A state is subservient to federal law, just as a municipality is subservient to state law.
The fed gov't is just wisely picking and choosing the battles they wish to fight (and win)...
Harass me all you want Doc, but it is you, not me who is advocating that we abandon our history as a nation of laws. Are you advocating for anarchy or authoritarianism?
If the law is not worth enforcing, change it. Allowing the government to pass laws and then arbitrarily decide who will be made to follow them and who will not puts us in the same league as the U.S.S.R. They had a great constitution, but only enforced it when convenient for the ruling class.
""Because if you have a hundred bucks in your pocket you can EASILY find a Dr. to write you a script for marijuana.......""
Got any proof of that Fredricka? Seems like a cop would have enthusiastiam in enforcing the law instead of turning a blind eye calling it a joke. If you're going to say perscritpion MJ can't be controlled with the law. You don't need to be cop. You're no better than the guy selling it to minors.
BB is right. That's exactly what happened in Colorado with mmj. Folks would be interviewed by a doctor on Skype, who would ask them questions about any pain or injuries they had, and then ask them "well, wouldn't marijuana lessen that pain?" to which, not surprisingly, they said no. I had a deputy AG tell me that they had 100,000 men between the ages of 18-25 with mmj cards in Summit County (home of Keystone, Copper Mountain and Arapahoe Basin ski areas), which is an amazing number of glaucoma cases and cases of insurmountable pain in one place.
Was your pot business in the90s legal or illegal?
MJ is legal in Colorado. That is no surprise. Actually it validates the point that how people will use a medical excuse, to abuse a prescribed medication.
It is now. We had MMJ for a few years before the current law.
I was just wondering if lhca was saying his illegal business was more lucrative than his legal one.
You're no better than the guy selling it to minors.... you don't need to be a cop.....
Hey Sleepyhunter..... Kiss my ass......
I never ever once said I would turn a blind eye to the law. You are so full of it.......
If you can't see how easy it is to get a medical marijuana card Sleepy..... you are completely STUPID..........
There are billboards everywhere....... Medical Marijuana license guaranteed.... $100..... no appointment necessary.....
BB is correct. Medical MJ was always a joke - an excuse to get pot for recreational purposes and had nothing to do with medical needs for the vast majority of users.
My biggest beef with MMJ is that MJ never had to go through the trials to prove safety end efficacy that any other drug has to go through.
MMJ was always just a way to get the foot in the door for total legalization.
Using the "medical needs" excuse is exactly the same process as making it legal to kill any baby any time because in extremely rare cases pregnancy results from rape or the life of the mother may be in danger.
Two questions for the legalization crowd.
1. If MJ is legal, who is it legal for? What should be the legal age? Is it legal for pregnant women? Can it be smoked in the presence of minors or pregnant women? As a non-consumer do I have the right to be in a MJ-free environment?
2. If MJ is legal, why not other drugs and substances. Why can't just go to Wal-Mart and purchase anti-biotics if I think I need them?
Guess what else is illegal in Michigan that I do not agree with Sleepyhunter ?????
Carrying a concealed pistol..... It is a felony here unless you get a CPL License.......
I am completely opposed to that law. All citizens should be able to carry a pistol without a CPL license.......
Guess what..... it is my job to enforce that law......weather I agree with it or not......
I don't have any desire to get a MJ card. Never applied for one. Have never seen an advertisement for one. I hope I never do. Any cop that is in favor of illegal activity for the sake of money, doesn't need to be a cop. Fredricka you're giving law enforcement a bad name. Very poor behavior.
Hey Sleepy. Kiss my ass !! Poor behavior ?? You act like you're 12 years old on this site calling guys women's names....... grow up.........
Carrying a concealed pistol in Michigan is an illegal activity...... I am in favor of everyone being able to carry a concealed pistol.... Here I am publicly saying I don't agree with a law in Michigan...... so sue me !!!! Ha !!!!
uh, no Concealed Carry in Michigan is legal, as long as you have a CPL, they are a "shall issue" state ... without the CPL, then it is illegal if that is what you meant .... open carry is legal... to "carry" in a vehicle requires a license(CPL) .. however, one may "transport" if the handgun is unloaded and mag unloaded and in an inaccessible place or container..
Yes Jeff... that is what I mean..... it is still a felony to carry a concealed pistol if you don't get a CPL......in Michigan......
Law enforcement officers dont make the stupid laws like BB described above.
That's why people should pay attention to who they vote for...it's the panty waist politicians that is the problem.
"Harass me all you want Doc, but it is you, not me who is advocating that we abandon our history as a nation of laws. Are you advocating for anarchy or authoritarianism?"
Not harassing at all. Just asking a simple question that you apparently can't answer. And how you can insinuate may questions are suggesting anarchy is bizarre. I never suggested anything remotely close to that.
Since you refuse again to answer my question it appears you have no rational explanation for your inconsistent views on federal authority regarding firearms and mj. Apparently you are just confused.
"1. If MJ is legal, who is it legal for? What should be the legal age? Is it legal for pregnant women? Can it be smoked in the presence of minors or pregnant women? As a non-consumer do I have the right to be in a MJ-free environment?"
Yes there is a legal age - 21 - similar to alcohol. Are you now suggesting separate laws for pregnant women? Ridiculous. It can't be smoked in public.
2. If MJ is legal, why not other drugs and substances. Why can't just go to Wal-Mart and purchase anti-biotics if I think I need them?
If it's for medical use you need a prescription. If it's for recreational use you don't, just like you don't need a prescription for alcohol, which is arguably much more dangerous.
Maybe you should do a little homework. You have very strong opinions on this topic but are basically clueless on the details. Did you watch the video in the link I posted?
BB "Guess what..... it is my job to enforce that law......weather I agree with it or not."
As are federal law-enforcement when it comes to MJ laws.
"So which is it Henry? Do you believe the feds should be able to dictate to the states or not?"
I directly answered your question, but apparently you did not like my answer. "2A- carry is a constitutional right. Mj sale and consumption is not. I don't think that's a difficult concept."
Where constitutional, yes. Where not constitutional, no.
Same question to you Doc.
Also "Ridiculous. It can't be smoked in public." Are children and pregnant women protected in their homes?
Serious? Are children and pregnant women protected in their homes from cigarette smoke, drunken spouses/parents, fatty foods, rat poison, poisonous chemicals, and you name it? Don't tell me we need a whole new set of laws to protect pregnant women and children.
Any substance that causes your behavior to be contrary to what is defined (legally) as normal that may and can cause harm to others is regulated. A firearm will not cause you to act in a way that is not deemed normal behavior, but some narcotics can and will.
ATF is a federal agency formed to police certain items. It is not up to a state to decided what they will and will not legalize at a federal level.
Pig Doc's Link
So....basically, anyone who smokes pot, illegally, is going to not smoke it in front of kids or pregnant women, because pots illegal. But if we make pot legal, they will smoke it front of women and kids?
And similarly, making pot legal will make people smoke and drive MORE?
Half of you can’t really be serious
"It is not up to a state to decided what they will and will not legalize at a federal level."
The Cole memo issued by the DOJ in 2013 changed that.
It was a good move IMO. The war on drugs is an utter failure. Billions wasted. No positive effects. The only ones that benefited are drug cartels and dealers. Keep your head in the sand if you so choose.
"Half of you can’t really be serious"
The scary thing DC is that they are serious. Serious and seriously delusional.
Doc, ignoring my question?
So which is it Doc? Do you believe the feds should be able to dictate to the states or not?
"has he done on Uranium one, dossier and FBI corruption?"
NY and Chicago have both declared it legal, so why should he get involved?
Henry .... If you think the Feds are going to start enforcing marijuana laws in Colorado, Massachusetts, Maine, Nevada, Oregon, California, and every other State that decides to allow marijuana....... You must think there are WAY more Federal Agents then there truly are. Mark my words..... It ain't happening.......
Hey Sleepy. Kiss my ass !! Poor behavior ?? You act like you're 12 years old on this site calling guys women's names....... grow up.........
I'll think about it Fredricka, but Im doubtful it will stop. It makes simple minds like you go to pieces.
"NY and Chicago have both declared it legal, so why should he get involved?"
Declared what legal?
More like 8 years old. And poorly behaved at that. Get off your mommy's computer.
Doc, it was a joking way to point out that just because a state or city says it's legal does not make it so.
"So which is it Doc? Do you believe the feds should be able to dictate to the states or not?"
If the Feds should be able to dictate to the states...... Then it should not be allowed to have dry counties in the south where a guy can't buy a beer.....Haa !!!!
Ni kidding Big Bear, I thought my client was jerking my chain when he first told me we would need to leave the county to have a cold one before dinner.
Most dry counties allow possession of up to a gallon of booze, not including beer. Private consumption is legal, public consumption is not. Sales and distribution are illegal.
Exceptions do exist (read Mississippi) but I'm not aware of any county where private consumption of a beer is illegal.
Dry county laws are just as stupid as medical marijuana laws..... So you're telling me someone is breaking the law by having 2 gallons of whiskey in their home in a dry county ?? STUPID.
It was illegal to have a cold one at the restaurant, I never said he invited me to his house.
Big Bear, the town I was in sat next to the border of a neighboring state and it was illegal to bring booze across the state line, but it was ok if you drove 30 miles to bring in it from the neighboring county within the state.
"The Cole memo issued by the DOJ in 2013 changed that." It did to a point - the federal gov't has too much of a high level approach and has wasted billions and lost on a domestic level.
The Cole memo recognizes that states are legalizing a controlled substance (CSA) and those states are given authority to proceed as long as those states do not attempt to trump what federal law dictates. The states engaged in the legalized distribution and use of marijuana must show diligence to the federal gov't they are not being careless from a federal perspective. No different than states regulating [life] insurance - they still have to do it under federal guidelines and show they are on top of it: "Thus, this memorandum serves as a guidance to Department attorneys and law enforcement to focus their enforcement resources and efforts, including prosecution, on persons and organizations whose conduct interferes with any one or more of these priorities, regardless of state law." In short, states are in control as it should be.
If a State chooses to ignore the stipulations in this memorandum (or the CSA), then federal law has the right to step in: "As with the Department's previous statements on this subject, the memorandum is intended solely as a guide to the exercise of the investigative and prosecutorial discretion. This memorandum does not alter in any way the Departments authority to enforce federal law, including federal laws relating to marijuana, regardless of state law."
A state can't simply wake up one morning, give federal law the bird, and do the hell what they want. State law must still be practiced within the traditions of federal law.
""More like 8 years old. And poorly behaved at that. Get off your mommy's computer.""
LOL, the psychotic Dr is out of his padded room again. BB, I've been thinking about what you said calling you a woman's name. I realize now that was incorrect. My bad. I'll try to improve. I believe Barney Fife is a better fit for you. That said, MJ should stay illegal. After reading posts of pro legalization from yourself and the mad Dr. Im more convinced now more than ever it should stay illegal. I hope it does. For the safety of law abiding innocent people.
30 states, representing nearly 70% of the US population, have legalized MJ either for medical use, recreational use, or both. It's roughly a $8 BILLION industry, currently, and growing quickly. .
Colorado has collected over $500 MILLION in tax revenues since legalizing MJ. Over half of that has funded K-12 school construction projects and other educational budgets.
Sessions is opening a political, legal, and legislative can of worms if he tries to dismantle the legalized MJ industry. If anything, the push-back will likely move Congress to declassify MJ as a Schedule 1 drug. At least, that's how I see it going.
"Colorado has collected over $500 MILLION in tax revenues since legalizing MJ. Over half of that has funded K-12 school construction projects and other educational budgets."
So we pushed to legalize smoking pot to tax it while vilifying tobacco companies for selling a product that's harmful to it's users and those around the user. Whisky Tango Foxtrot.
"So we pushed to legalize smoking pot to tax it while vilifying tobacco companies for selling a product that's harmful to it's users and those around the user. Whisky Tango Foxtrot."
Makes perfect sense to me. Legalization has nothing to do with how much is consumed, only where the revenue is going. Would you rather the profits go to improving schools or to drug cartels in Mexico.
I doubt you will do it but I encourage you to watch the video in the link I posted on 1/5. Open your mind and learn why criminalization has not worked
We can villify both tobacco and marijuana........ They both should be taxed......
The bottom line is there are just as many people smoking pot in Michigan under the ridiculous medical marijuana program as there are in Colorado..... But at least Colorado is benefiting from taxing it......
"A state can't simply wake up one morning, give federal law the bird, and do the hell what they want. State law must still be practiced within the traditions of federal law."
They didn't "wake up one morning and give federal law the bird". With the Cole memo the DOJ allowed states to legalize mj as long as they followed certain criteria. That has now happened in 8 states and DC. Rescinding now is stupid and will simply waste people's time and taxpayer dollars.
"So we pushed to legalize smoking pot to tax it while vilifying tobacco companies for selling a product that's harmful to it's users and those around the user."
Yep, just like dozens of other drugs that are legal, and arguably more dangerous than MJ.
I'm not here to advocate or condemn MJ. Unlike many of you, I have experience with it, so I feel better equipped to comment on it. IMO, alcohol and tobacco are far worse in terms of their addictive qualities and harmful health and behavioral risks.
For me, it comes down to personal responsibility. Do want to dictate that yourself, or have the government dictate it for you?
You misunderstand me. It should be legalized. But either way it makes no diff in my life. And yes, I grew up in the 70's and have more than a little experience with it.
I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact the that we (collectively) vilified the tobacco industry for the health issues it causes, to the point of suing the hell out of the industry and yet turn around and push to legalize another product used in the same manner.
States Right's have been trampled on long ago. Federal Dept of Education, ect, should have never happened.
I'm for State's Rights but the states should not violate rights granted in the Constitution.
Exactly, TGbow. If it is a bad law get rid of it. If it is in effect, enforce it.
"I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact the that we (collectively) vilified the tobacco industry for the health issues it causes, to the point of suing the hell out of the industry and yet turn around and push to legalize another product used in the same manner.
I think it's our right to vilify anything, if we choose to, as long as it doesn't infringe on some one else's freedoms.
I happen to think legally prescribed depression and pain drugs should be vilified. I've seen them wreck more lives than MJ ever has. But, I also respect the rights of users of those drugs to make their own decisions, as long as it doesn't infringe on me.
"With the Cole memo the DOJ allowed states to legalize mj as long as they followed certain criteria."
Yes - once the state legalized, the memo gave guidance on how to proceed. The memo stands as a governance that states must adhere to federal statutory and cannot tell the fed to "go pound sand, we'll do what we want". If the states ignore the guidelines, I'd wager the feds will step in.
In essence, proceed with caution.
I'd wager you are wrong. I can't believe they would waste their time and tax payer money on this but hey, they're the feds and known to do stupid chit.
Maybe - but it would be an easy Cartel to nab domestically if a state decided to sell to minors, or let someone distribute unlicensed and they did nothing about it.
The feds step in when they want to. The memo states that as well, otherwise federal law would never have been mentioned. If the feds decide to ignore everything, then what's the point in federal law in the first place? The memo is not an open season permit to manufacture and distribute a narcotic. It's a permission slip to do so under the guidelines set forth by federal law.
If states are left to do at will in entirety as a sovereign, the US ceases to exist as a country and now becomes a continent with individual country states.
"if a state decided to sell to minors"
They can't and don't. IDs checked at the door.
"The memo is not an open season permit to manufacture and distribute a narcotic"
No one said it was.
"If states are left to do at will in entirety as a sovereign, the US ceases to exist as a country and now becomes a continent with individual country states"
I don't see anyone suggesting this.
You are completely missing the point.
Edit: Comments directed toward the beginning of the thread, state vs. fed governance. The point? Which point? Why is mj seen as illegal when other drugs or stimulants are ok? Only the authors of the CSA can answer that, politically driven I'm sure. The double standard, some are ok with things like a lottery scholarships but not with tax dollars made and spent from mj sales on the general wellfare of the public? Can't answer that either, need a soul searching ethics thread for that.
"" I also respect the rights of users of those drugs to make their own decisions, as long as it doesn't infringe on me. ""
There lies the problem. The responsible people are far outnumbered by the irresponsible. The country would be better off long term without MJ legalization.
They thought the same thing with the Volstead Act and then repealed it.
"Why is mj seen as illegal when other drugs or stimulants are ok?"
One step at a time.
"Yep, just like dozens of other drugs that are legal, and arguably more dangerous than MJ." - Grey Ghost
"Spot on GG." - Pig Doc
"one step at a time" for...?
Annony Mouse's Link
Bundy walks. It must have been revealed that they were growing MJ.
EPA finds THC air pollution in CA?
PD.That has now happened in 8 states and DC. Rescinding now is stupid and will simply waste people's time and taxpayer dollars. Our constitution and our laws are not based soly on monetary value . The good of the people and morality and at one time in the not far past what we deemed to be right before God entered into the equasion. What we have now and what many on here are argueing is the product of a society without God and with no moral compass. This includes the lack of concern of many of the individuals that drink , smoke, take drugs for the lives of others including their own children and familys. This is an all about me people. Real losers. But hey taxes, money , a good time , everything is ok. Right??? God bless, Steve
"In wine there is wisdom... In beer there is freedom.... In water there is bacteria"......... Benjamin Franklin........
Dr. Franklin was a very smart guy, a shrewd tactician in politics - nobody ever said he was a moral man...
There will always be absolute truth when it comes to right and wrong, God doesn't force us to obey his word. The out come will be exactly as he ordains it. There are a lot of things that go on that are immoral in this country. Personally, I believe government should operate at a very very very limited capacity. Dealing only with the fundamentals as far as laws go. I we had laws on the books that could possibly cause an individual to get arrested, tried and convicted when an individual sins against God, 99.9% of us would be jailed...I know I would be. Children would be running our country since all of us are guilty of lying, pridefullness, bitterness, materialistic, ect..sins against God. Laws against murder, rape,theft, petifilia are there to protect all citizens.
In a society that is really free I dont see any other way than to accept the fact that others will do things I think are wrong, and regretfully so will I.
We will all answer to God as judge or saviour but he will not force himself upon any of us. I cant force a Muslim to convert but God can. A person has a free will to choose.
The older I get the more I believe I need to be carefull what band wagons I jump on.
I think Liberalism, Marxusm, Communism, Facism are all bad for our country and are contrary to our Democratic Republic...but I support a person's right to voice their opinion.
We have had a long war on drugs, lots of good men and women have died trying to enforce it...but sadly we are no better off, imo. Until an individual endangers another it really shouldn't be the state or Federal governmnet's bussiness what they do.
A self governing citizenry requires that you set laws forth that do not damage the very fabric if society it creates. When that citizenry does impart laws that degrade the society it creates, someone or something, will step in and take over.
Hence the whole point to the Cole memo posted above - proceed with caution...
What happened to left handed canyon archer?
"But hey taxes, money , a good time , everything is ok. Right???"
The DOJ rescinding the Cole memo giving states the freedom to legalize mj will have ZERO impact on the amount of mj consumed. It will only have an impact on where the dollars go.
Simple question - would you prefer that those dollars go to states to use in education and other productive functions or to drug cartels?
Doc, the same argument could be made for legalizing virtually any crime that involves transfer of cash.
Speaking of drug cartels, is it true that the Kennedy family still gets a cut from all whiskey imported to America?
Child slavery and porn and prostitution should all be legalized according to the arguements I am hearing. Money makes it right. Some of these arguements are not fit for anyone calling themselves Americans or citizens of this great country and those doing so should be ashamed of themselves. If might makes right and money makes right then you have absolutely no moral compass at all. So I suggest that you make the wrong arguement for marijuana./ Your arguement says we should legalize anything that is a burden to enforce. So bring on the drugs, Bring on the prostitution., bring on corruption. bring on slavery, bring on child porn and just legalize it because some immoral motherless sons want it your now corrupt system can monetarily profit. Oh bring on the cotton trade and build some plantations and lets have some slave auctions while you are at it. Cause that is where lawlessness and immorality lead/ God bless, Steve
The counter to that, Sixby, is that slavery and prostitution (of minors) is against someone's will.
Legalizing mj isn't. But I can see where you're coming from. Give an inch and take a mile. Here a little, there a little, inch by inch, until you are mired down in muck...
I never said or implied any of those things should be legal. Equating marijuana use and child pornography is just plain stupid. This topic is about marijuana.
Sixby and HA are incapable of answering my very simple question because they live in some make believe land. People are going to continue to smoke mj. It is less harmful than alcohol, which is legal and taxed. Would you rather have proceeds of mj sales go to the states or the cartels?
If an individual does something that harms another individual it should be illegal. Convicted Petifiles should swing at the end of a rope as far as I'm concerned.
My argument is that there's a lot of things that may be wrong but if we have laws on the books that could potentially cause an individual to be jailed if they sin against God we would have no one to run our country. I hate drugs. But allowing the government to operate as a control machine could mean that I, as a Christian, could suffer from that same power of the long arm of the government.
Once the gov goe beyond the fundamentals of the law we open up a can of worms.
A nation will change for the good when their hearts change.
How many here so against mj drink coffee in the morning? Caffeine is by far a stronger chemical than tetrahydrocannabinol. You can overdose and die from caffeine! The Olympics monitors caffeine because it can enhance they monitor thc because it is illicit.
Ever been around a cranky person who hasn't had their first cup yet? Ever had a conversation with someone who's had too many cups?
A lot of you deal with people, who are "high", on an everyday basis and don't have any idea.
I should also say we introduce our children to caffeine at a very young age!
The nature of nicotine is just as bad as caffeine...
Annony Mouse's Link
Doc,, I answered your question multiple times, but you apparently do not think I have the right to give that answer. You, OTOH, did not answer the same question when I asked it back at you.
"So which is it Doc? Do you believe the feds should be able to dictate to the states or not?"
The spotted owl was the source for the dooming of the forest industry.
It may well spell a similar fate for marijuana farming in CA. ;o)
Interestingly, Barred Owls are killing and eating the Spotted Owls.
That's Politically incorrect owls for ya.. Dont they know the Spotted Owl is endangered?
Where is left handed canyon archer?
In northern CA dining on owl...
Some of us just do not get my arguement so I must not be making a very coherent one. Grin> I am trying to say this is the USA and I am a citizen. This is a democratic republic. We have a system that has a congress that passes the laws on a national basis and states that pass laws on that states basis./ These states are always subject to the Federal law which is the majority of the people. (suposedly) They may pass law but not in contradiction or harm to the federal law. Ever. States that pass law seperately in contradiction to Federal law are performing an act of seperation and sedition against the will of the majority of people in this nation. This act causes harm to the Federal system and rule of law constitutionally. No man is an island./ No state is an island/. One example is Constitutional law concerning firearms/ Recently a woman from one state that had a perfectly legal firearm and firearm permit to carry was incarcerated when she crossed a state line that Un-Constitutionally had passed an anti -possession law. If the state with the anti gun possession law was in accordance with the Constitution of the USA she would have been held harmless. It is imperative that in order to preserve Federal law and uniformity we either be obediant to it or first by the Congress of the USA pass laws concerning what we wish to change./ In this case marijuana. This is what I am advocating. In the meantime the states passing marijuana and sanctuary laws that defy federal law should be stopped immediately and brought into conformance/ I expect you will see this lawful and constitutionally correct government to do this and quickly. Smoke up and hide your pot until the law is changed because now you are legally a criminal/ God bless, Steve
States should not pass laws that violate rights given in the Constitution. On the other hand, through the years the Federal government has over stepped it's boundaries when it comes to states rights. There may be a law that is legal as far as from a technical stand point, but does that Federal law over step its boundaries? Education for example, the founders never intended the Federal government to dictate the state's education criteria.
The problem is today...we don'e know any better. Over the years the Federal, and state, governments have over stepped their boundaries more and more to the point that we think it's normal.
The first major turn of the tide from the Federal government came with Abraham Lincoln. He set a bar for politicians to look to to justify their tyranny. I agree, the states should not over rule the Federal government's laws that are based on the Constitution...but the Federal government should not dictate laws that they have no authority.
What good is the fundamental rights of the Constitution if those rights can be over run by Federal or state governments? The supreme court is so out of control it isn't funny. ..that's another serious problem. They condoned the murder of innocent life in 1973. Just like slavery, it should have never happened, what a contradiction to our Constitution.
The Supreme court cannot legally make law. They interpret the law and pass opinions . They have a right to determine constitutionality, Supposedly. But in some instances as in determination of marriage and Roe Vs Wade the decisions that they have made have been mistakenly established as law. Even though this is the supreme court that is judicial wrongly and un constitutionally replacing the legislative. Never supposed to happen. Good post TG Bow. God bless, Steve
I saw in the paper today that Vermont just legalized recreational marijuana.
What's interesting in Vermont's case is that the Bill was initiated by the State Legislature, and not by Citizen Initiative.
States rights are are for guns and abortion. Most folks instinctively default to the Feds on all other issues. I'm not sure why.