Every time this happens we get the same old discussion. Well, it hasn't gotten us anywhere and it won't because it's wrong. We discuss "Mental Illness" with a broad stroke. Most of the conversation revolves around the easy topics like guns and more security around our schools.
The really difficult topic only gets a little mention from time-to-time. The mental illness that has pervaded our sons. I can speak on this as a father of 3 sons, 2 of which followed all of teachings I could give. My oldest, has been, and continues to be one of the lost ones.
My older brother, when Columbine happened, my dad actually said he was afraid would have done something similar.
Depression, ADD, ADHD, Asperger's are all a part of the Autistic spectrum. It's very real, and very under diagnosed. The medications prescribed are literally illegal in most forms unless prescribed by a doctor.
The kid, in this case, was adopted at an early age. His adopted father died at least 10 years ago. He was left to be raised by a single woman in her late 60's when she too died. So here's this boy - no mother, no father. Lost somewhere. His classmates saw it, his teachers saw it. 36 calls to the house, even the FBI was alerted that he was unstable and even posted what he was going to do.
Everyone ignored him - his outward threat on social media that everyone seems to live by these days, he was telling everyone for months before this happened what he was planning.
So, that kind of leaves us sitting with our hats in hands, wondering how our leadership failed, and what we could have done differently. There is not one politician yet who has even addressed what happened.
These "lost boys" are intelligent and capable. But left to their own are very dangerous. Everybody knows who they are, but nobody knows what to do with them. We prefer to be lazy, then respond after they do something.
Salagi's Link
Instead of having secure mental institutions we now have in my state what are called group homes. These are ordinary houses in ordinary neighborhoods.... That are purchased to house mental patients. The owners make money off the house and sometimes own multiple houses. Each house may house two patients and some I see have 5 or 6...........
The houses are staffed by highly undertrained minimum wage baby sitters..... and the patients are assigned to case workers who don't live there.
We probably have 30 group homes in the city I work in. Not a day goes by when we don't get dispatched to one or more of these homes to deal with problems at the group homes. If one opened up next door to my house I would move ASAP.
Solution...... State run mental hospitals..... It's time to move back in that direction if you ask me.
Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich gives a dose of reality to the MSM and the U.S. as a whole. pic.twitter.com/xqbArHgZSX
— Based Monitored ???????? (@BasedMonitored) February 17, 2018
Maybe the question that we need to ask (and are actually asking) is "What is the motivation?"
One possible answer is that in a twisted mind, it is a way of keeping score. If you set a "world record" you will always be famous. It is kind of a video game mentality.
Maybe this is just the latest version of suicide by cop.
One difficult truth is that a person with evil intent will always find a way to do evil. Any thinking person knows that more gun laws will ultimately fail to stop anything. (The first murderer killed 1/4 of the world population with a rock.) Jack recently posted a link to a study showing that some nations with very strict gun laws have higher per capita mass murder rates than the US. Chicago with strict gun laws kills more kids every year than all of the school shootings combined.
One way to respond is to create ways to minimize the evil they can do once they try to do it. Fortifying schools and arming school personnel come under this.
Another is to attempt to predict when a person is planning to commit one of these acts and act to prevent it. For example "see something, say something" and better LE training and protocols.
A third is to try to prevent people from getting to the state of mind where they are willing to commit the atrocities. This is ultimately both the most difficult and time consuming, but in the end the only actual preventative. Some say better mental health services, some say a speedy trial and an execution before the victims are buried, some say social changes, some say religion for everyone.
I firmly believe that most of us want a solution and have honest disagreements on how best to proceed. We need honest discussions.
One thing to keep in mind is that these kids have grown up in a much different world than most of us. They have life-long exposure to electronic media. They grew up in a world where a high percent of kids have only one parent (with more and more never having a father in their life, but a series of "uncles"). Even if the criminal had two parents, a high percent of their peers did not.
They have lived their entire life in a post-911 America.
They have lived their entire lives in an era where at an increasing rate good is called evil and evil is called good.
When I was a teen, the really bad songs were about sex without marriage or getting drunk. Now the "good" songs are about murder, rape, etc. How can that do anything but warp a kid's view of life?
Unless we are measuring good and bad against God's standards, what authority determines what is good and what is bad? If adults can on a whim decide what is good or bad, why would we expect kids to act differently? They emulate what they see in the adult world.
If people really are the end result of "survival of the fittest," who are we to judge if one kid finds a way to survive that we don't like?
But, we are NOT just another animal in the kingdom. We know good and evil. Some choose evil. Many promote evil in it's various forms then get indignant when a school shooting happens.
Laws were never intended to prevent evil. No law ever prevented evil. Laws define evil and the consequences of evil. In America, we have allowed the definition of evil to become skewed and the consequences to disappear.
A phrase that has disappeared from our society is "fear of God." Why should anyone fear God? Because we know that God punishes evil. Not always in this life, but it will happen. Some lie to themselves, but they know.
As individuals, we are told to turn the other cheek and forgive. However, the government is given the authority and responsibility to punish evil. Not prevent evil, but to punish it. Currently in America, the government is often not feared by criminals because they believe that they will not be punished.
As individuals, we are also told to take care of our neighbor. That task is never given to the government in the Bible it is a responsibility given to each of us. Unfortunately, in America, we too often have decided that we will let the government take care of our neighbor. The government does a terrible job and our neighbor perishes emotionally and spiritually which manifests itself in crime and social ills such as kids without fathers.
Thanks, Salagi, Atheist - all who took the time to read this.
Atheist, to your point, it isn't that we don't have access to medical care. I'm fortunate enough to have the resources to get good care. The problem we (my wife and myself) have seen, is there is a real shortage of people who understand the problem well enough to diagnose it, let alone treat it, regardless of resources. So if somewhat well-off parents, with lots of resources can't get good treatment, we have to wonder what happens with those who have even less resources.
What happens in these young mens' minds is a lifetime of knowing they are different - a little "off". They sure don't want to be, but they also know they have a hard time fitting in. Little by little they feel themselves more removed, more discounted. They can have loving parents giving guidance, but all they know how to do is fight against knowing they aren't like everyone else.
In a perfect world, they could be pulled aside and taught with a completely different curriculum. One that is very hands-on, fast paced and challenging. These kids, the ones who make it through their 20's are often some of the most brilliant people and do great things. Unfortunately, a large percentage of them, being on strong medication most of their lives, end up self-medicating in their late teens and early twenties. Many commit suicide, many others end up in jail.
Think of them as always swimming against the current, with no let up.
Part of why I started this thread is for us all to put aside measures that are responsive.
The "thing" we have to fix is some kid looking around his school and wanting to indiscriminately kill his classmates. He's so angry, so lacking in empathy, that he just wants to inflict pain on everyone. He doesn't care if they are good people, or nice - he just wants to do as much damage as he can.
This kind of emotional separation can only be the product of someone who feels such deep hurt that they can't even feel empathy for a random person in the half second before they decide to kill that person.
To them, they've been a victim so long, they can't connect emotionally with anyone, so people just become things.
The really hard part about this is - we actually can see it around us. These kids have a chance until they separate from reality and MAKE us see them. If we see them early enough and take the time to help them find a sense of worth in this life, they wouldn't see others' lives as worthless.
"The root cause of all evil is rebellion against God."
I've spent the last 20 years of my life trying to understand this beast. I've seen it tear apart families, and it has certainly been the hardest part of my life, my marriage, my sense of worth as a father.
I welcome your input, and appreciate the time you have put into it. Honestly, your last post was more personal, and more meaningful because of it than I've seen from you.
I always appreciate your pragmatic approach, but this was different, and personal, and I thank you for it.
Like some other things, it seems like early identification and aggressive action increases the chance of success.
I truly do not know where the autism spectrum fits in with my long post above.
My first statement still stands, but I left off the important statement for the end - "God wants all to come to Him and have peace. He has provided the solution to evil."
What is difficult for us to see or understand is that what happens in this world is just prelude for what happens next. We impatiently want everything solved in our time and in our way.
My hope, my prayer, is that we collectively learn how to more appropriately work with these kids, find their potential for good and steer them away from their potential for evil.
I tell my oldest son almost daily, when we can harness your strengths for good, the world will be better for it. He gets it, and at times really shines. He really has a wonderful soul, and projects that when he has the opportunity. But he still struggles with the demons of his own creation.
My situation..... your situation.... it breaks my heart. It's two steps forward.... one step back... then one step forward and two steps back. And still I have no answers. Only thing I can do is support him when he's trying to get things, get his life back together. Maybe THAT is the thing that some kids lack.... there is no one there when they really are trying to "change" or recover or "get better". I just don't know.
It's a worthwhile conversation for sure.
If I could prescribe anything to help these kids, it would be getting into the Word of God, removing gaming and social media, a natural diet eliminating all processed foods and an unbroken home where mom and dad are both recognizably (demonstrably) putting kids and family before shiny objects. btw, this is prescription for the WHOLE family, not just the symptomatic youth. In short, we are awash in physical, spiritual and mental toxicity...
As for the drugs, I believe they have a horribly deleterious effect on the mental stability of these kids. I know correlation does not necessarily mean causation but, in this repeated scenario, the correlation of psychotrophic drug use is just too absolute to believe otherwise. I believe they are prescribed many times too wedge these kids to fit into social norms that are, in themselves, unnatural and highly mentally toxic. Just as an example, look at the life of a kid today: they are told to live a virtual and theoretical existence until they reach adulthood. We've removed a TON of coping mechanisms both individually and institutionally that would abate the effects of delayed gratification. And that brings me to my last point, foster a sense of purpose, immediately and constantly. Something they value that is externally focused.
My social prescription would be get in the Word, go to church, stop treating our kids like a legion of kids in a Pink Floyd video and decriminalize the security of our children. These shootings don't occur at gun shows or hunting camps, after all. My 2nd point may ruffle feathers but church is not about "personal salvation" or sitting with perfect people on a Sunday morning, it's about edifying one's culture by participation - building the body of Christ.
when I was a kid growing up, you didn't hear much about gun control. simply because it wasn't as big of a problem. Did guns become more dangerous? Some of us boys used to have a shotgun or 22 behind the seat of the truck, on school property so we could go hunting after school. I sharpened my pencil with a pocket knife sometimes. I had a math teacher, she used to say to me "steve we do have pencil sharpeners you know."
You can deny the facts all you want, play dumb whatever, but I lived in a different world back then than I do now.
Not very many people got all riled up when you mentioned God, or being a Christian. Being gay was thought of as unnatural and kinda strange. Everyone knew whether they were a man or a woman, and if you got caught in the wrong restroom you were in trouble.
There were not very many kids from broken homes, and You couldn't hardly find a judge to grant a divorce and it was even harder to find a minister that would re-marry you. I can remember sitting in church and they were addressing the issue of divorce and re marriage and an old minister said "when we become comfortable with divorce and re-marriage, it will only be a matter of time when we'll be addressing gay marriage"...imagine that, here we are.
We played cowboys and Indians..army guys, watched john wayne and clint eastwood but we didn't see the blood and gore of today. I went to a very large public high school, graduated with probably 300 in my class. I can't remember anyone having a tattoo, and if a guy had an ear ring, he'd have been picked on.
There were bullies, and there were shy kids, some kids were picked on, not everyone made the sports teams, and some had to sit on the bench. but nobody took a gun to school to kill......
Can you pick one thing as a reason for todays school violence? No...its the whole mess we have created....saddest part of it, there are so many that cannot see it...
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
I hate to say it....but we are there, its about time we face the facts.
One example from when I was principal. I was dealing with a student in upper elementary school. Parents refused to believe that he had a problem, so it was very difficult to deal with. As a school, we were legally bound to not take disciplinary action against any kid if their behavior was "a manifestation of their disability." Yes, my hands were very tied.
One time, I was on after school bus duty. A line of students were waiting for the bus to arrive. They were lined up with littlest in front up to biggest in back. This kid was big for his age. Here he came running and slammed into the back of the line. The kids went down like dominoes with the littlest one in front falling down and crying.
He immediately knew that he blew it and started saying "It was an accident."
I told him it was NOT an accident. He intentionally ran into that line of kids. What he did not intend was for the littlest one to get knocked down.
In another case that is close to me, the parents admitted that there was a problem. They aggressively sought solutions. The kid went from being the kid no teacher wanted in their class in elementary to now a very successful teacher in an inner city high school.
This is what we have become. A timeless and mindless nation, that has wavered from nature and God's law, that the nurturing of our children will be our work of art that will convince our future to look kindly on us. The future is now and no one is smiling.
Dismantle social media totally and leave be the intention of the computer from its original outset. To be the slave of man in business, medicine,exploration, industry and education. We have come full circle through the greed and genius of that which is man and have become the slave of our slave.
Remove this devil and you will see our own naked and essential reality and the twin brother to an addiction like no other. We live in constant fear of being alone with ourselves, our own thoughts, for even a moment. We should dedicate this pixel "time" that consumes our lives to our own children...but... here we go again and then we wonder why.
The Rock
That is not to say that all boys with fathers turn out right (even if they have a great father) or that all boys without fathers are doomed to failure.
I can't add much that hasn't already been said, other than we didn't get to this point overnight and the solution won't happen overnight either.
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
I am not saying that is the case, but it is as reasonable as assuming that when a kid took ADD meds then turned violent it was caused by the meds.
Why was the kid a candidate for the meds in the first place?
BTW, my personal theory on the vast increase of kids without the ability or will to control themselves goes back to abandonment of appropriate physical punishment when they were very young children.
Pain causes our brain to re-wire itself. Pain resulting from bad behavior may very well cause the brain to re-wire against repeating the bad behavior. Producing a child who grows into an adult who more consistently chooses to do the right thing.
We now have families that are in the 3rd or 4th generation removed from "traditional values." What is the cumulative impact of that?
So many things have changed in America that it is impossible to say that any one is "the" cause for all school shootings.
But, unless we hold individuals responsible for their own actions, those responsible feel justified and can blame others.
Kids must learn at an early age that their actions have consequences. We have tried everything we can to eliminate holding kids responsible for their actions.
No job? We give you money.
Wasted your chance for education? We give you money.
Throw a temper tantrum? You must have ADD, here is a pill.
Don't want to stay away from drugs? We will give you methadone or change the drug laws.
Want to have sex without marriage? OK, we will pay the baby mamma instead of requiring you to support it.
FYI In 1967, Gov Ronald Reagan signed the Milford Act banning the public carry of loaded guns Military-style rifles were also banned until the @GOP let it expire.
With all due respect, I agree that fear of discipline is missing in our society. The fear of getting my father's belt kept me out of a lot of trouble as a youth.
That said, mental health problems can't always be cured by discipline. The cure comes from a deeper understanding of the causes, and being able to recognize and treat them without resorting solely to mind-numbing drugs.
My mother suffered from bi-polar disorder. She'd swing from periods of endless energy, often staying up all night to complete a certain project, or compulsively re-organizing things she'd organized a short time before, to lying in bed for days contemplating suicide.
I saw the effects of depression medications on my mother. I called them her "zombie drugs". Yeah, they took the extreme highs and lows away, but they literally turned her into a person who didn't care about much of anything. It saddens me think of those days.
She struggled with the balance between drugs and psycho-theropy for the better part of the last half of her life.
Modern mental health care is still rudimentary, IMO. That needs to be the focus, not discipline, not more security, not gun control, and not religion. "Social media" also has to be reigned in at a family level. It's a fictional fantasy land that is taken entirely too serious, and obsessed over, causing destructive and evil behavior.
Matt
I am sorry for your mothers demons and your exposure to the them. I hope all is well in your life.
The Rock
Thank you. I'm fine. As they say, "what doesn't kill you...."
Matt
I agree with you and that is not what I said. I do believe that most of what is currently called ADD could be. From Psychology Today "Symptoms of ADD are so nonspecific and common in the general population, there is no bright line boundary separating the normal high spirited child from the psychiatrically ill one - and it's an inherently imprecise judgment that is very much in the eye of the beholder."
"Modern mental health care is still rudimentary, IMO."
Or more in the realm of malpractice and no more effective than the patent medicines peddled from town to town in the 1800's.
Your story about your mother helps make the problem real for all of us. Having worked in education for 39 years, I have seen kids with real problems, kids with problems that developed because of parenting style, kids with imagined problems, kids with parents who were just looking for an excuse for the kid, kids with problems that were helped by drugs (by helped, I mean temporarily on a drug and off of it within months with the desired change), kids that were on drugs for so long that none of us knew whether they helped or not, kids who would come to school and everyone in the building knew immediately that they did not take medicine that morning, etc.
True mental illness is a relatively small portion of the population, but at present it is a fad to call any aberrant behavior illness rather than a decision that should have consequences.
Dealing with ADD/ADHD kids with a heavy hand, only reinforces in them that it's OK to exert force to achieve an outcome. That's exactly how they become violent, in my opinion. They, even more than your "normal" kid pick up very quickly on queues from adults.
I've gotten my share of swats from the principal, spankings with a belt, and I deserved them. And it had the desired effect outwardly - I altered my actions to avoid punishment. I also got a lot more sneaky. I didn't necessarily stop doing what I wasn't supposed to, I just got smarter about not getting caught.
ADD/ADHD kids are brilliant in this capacity. If you tell them what not to do, or here is what's going to happen to you, they just figure out a way to do it in a more clandestine way.
If, on the other hand, you make them teach to someone else the lessons you are trying to teach them, it sinks in and actually makes them more aware of their own behavior.
Thanks again for your input. I know you have a lot of experience we all can grow from.
Our society has changed and evolved in some unbelievable ways. We live in a great time blip and have experienced some of the greatest inventions ever, unfortunately those that are "lost" get pushed aside as they are different. With most of these shootings, those young men were lost due to family upbringings with broken homes. It was easier to buy theme the latest video game and give them space than it was to address their issues at the dinner table or on a daily basis. This steered them down the path to no remorse. Parent(s) too busy with their lives to deal head on with the issues staring them in the face. It will happen again, more than likely in the very near future. As long as the 24/7 media continues to glorify these horrendous acts, there will be others hatching their 5 minutes of fame as they see the outcome everywhere.
On a side note, Atheist and others, this is a post worth discussing- keep your politics out of it.
Dave
Our Mental Hospitals have been closed, and the prisons have absorbed what they can, but cannot house them all, so out in the population they go.
In this Florida Shooting, MANY warning signs were missed (by authorities including the FBI) along the way. Kids are afraid to speak up because they don’t want to get involved, labels as a rat or...quite frankly...don’t give a Chit.
Sad, so sad. If something seems wrong, ask questions!!!
How do you get people to give a Chit, when they honestly don’t care until they are effected? Then it automatically becomes everyone’s else’s problem.
The shootings are plastered all over the media, And yet, they remove the footage of the WTC being hit/bombed by planes from everywhere because “it is to disturbing for people to see”. What in the world is wrong with society? We honestly need to get our priorities right.
Probably more important than the total population numbers is the density. Kids have no freedom to roam, etc. They spend their entire life in an artificial environment with no opportunity to learn how life and death really work.
Our current society looks down on parent who control their kids. A spanking is looked on as child abuse by a large portion of the population.
It has become so bad that some state legislators have had to pass a law stating that spanking is NOT child abuse.
Another factor that has not been discussed is family size. A kid growing up as one of six siblings learns conflict resolution.
A kid growing up as practically an only child often learns that they are the center of the universe and are disappointed when the entire society does not agree.
Sorry, if I've misinterpreted your last post.
Matt
So do I, but we have to consider everything that has changed over the past few years and could impact kids.
Abortion on demand up to and sometimes after live delivery (initially forgot to put this on the list)
Divorce rates
Illegitimacy rates
Percent of kids with single parent
School size
Number of gun laws
Percent on welfare
Percent on food stamps
Number of TV sets per house
Computers
Acceptance of premarital sex
Acceptance of illegal drug use
Smart phones
Acceptance of profanity
Medicate kids for bad behavior
Closing mental health confinement facilities
Welfare for able bodied who do not work
Time spent watching TV
Acceptance of homosexuality
Belief in gender fluidity
Gone Down
Marriage rates
Respect for Christianity
Family size
Church attendance
Spanking
Time spent with parents
Children who respect adults
Adults who earn respect
Belief in Constitution
Understanding of cause and effect
Parental support for school
Parental support for Law Enforcement
Not Changed
Second Amendment
HA/KS's Link
More than anything, I blame these shootings on the drugging of American kids. It's disturbing that people are willing to throw their 2A rights into the shitter hoping for a good outcome.
Even my brother, a life- long gun owner and hunter is being persuaded by the commies that run the media. Their goals ain't about 'the children', it's about completely disarming John Q Public, period. That'll make their designed and planned destruction of America go so much smoother.
Tired of it all. Tired of being tolerant as the constitution gets less relevant each year. Interesting times.
Very very true. There have been a number of recent peer reviewed (real science) papers in reputable medical and scientific journals that show data of psychotropic drugs (including THC) has demonstrable effects on the growing brain (<25 years old). Under today's medical practices (much influenced by insurance industry, pharmaceutical companies and federal government regulations), there has been an increasing move to treat psychological problems with more drugs, less therapy. Add to the fact that institutionalized treatment has lessened, we have more people with mental problems being prescribed with drugs and left unsupervised in the open. Much of the homeless problem is directly linked to the closure of and regulation of institutional care.
This country has undergone a massive social change of acceptance of "abnormal/uncivilized" behavior in the last 20 years and we are seeing its outcome especially demonstrated in proregressive bastions such as San Francisco. Firearms are not and have never been the problem.
Neither were as conservative as I'd like, but a helluva lot better than the alternatives.
At least Trump says what's on his mind. Thumbs up for that. Refreshing!
Probably not....but then again at that time we hadn't been de-sensitized yet by a President getting a bj in the Oval Office by an intern!
We let our kids listen to Kid Rock singing about the 8 ball of cocaine in his pocket...... Rappers singing about killing cops and using the N word in their songs......
There's nudity on regular old TV now.......... And kids went from playing PAC man to violent games where they kill people.........
There is enough blame to go around for all of society.......
Annony Mouse's Link
Annony Mouse's Link
"...fatherlessness is a serious problem. America’s boys have been under stress for decades. It’s not toxic masculinity hurting them, it’s the fact that when they come home there are no fathers there. Plain and simple. Add that to a bunch of horrible cultural trends telling them that everything bad is good (gang culture, drugs, misogyny, etc.), and we’ve got a serious problem on our hands..."
"...of CNN’s list of the “27 Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History, only one was raised by his biological father since childhood."
The Rock
Anyway, our team chose to do a "Escape from Alcatraz" themed movie trailer. Our high school was portrayed as the prison. We each played roles as convicts, with unique talents, attempting to escape from prison.
Our short film included gun fight scenes in which we used actual firearms that I brought to school. Obviously, we didn't use live rounds. Our filming days were completely unsupervised. We could go anywhere on or off school property to shoot our scenes.
Our film won first place in the school-wide voting, including teachers, earning my team As for the class. Nobody ever raised a single eyebrow over our use of guns in our film.
My how times have changed. Sorry for the ramble.
Matt
No apologies needed for the ramble. Early to mid 70’s, I would walk from my home, along a main road, with my.22. Destination? A public school that had horror of horrors, an indoor gun range in the basement. Shot in an NRA marksmanship program. Fall of my junior and senior years in high school, 1977 & 1978, my shotgun or rifle would be in the back of my car so I could hunt after school. Along with about a dozen other guys. Yes, times have changed.
Man how the times are a changing.
I used to shoot rabbits with my 22 long rifle at our high school baseball field after practice and games. My coach would even join in on the fun at times. That was in the suburbs of Denver in the late 70s.
It's a shame our kids will never enjoy those same freedoms.
Matt
Shoots-Straight's Link
Mental illness exists in every nation. Isn’t it Funny how those nations don't have so many mass shootings... hmmm? Kinda interesting isn't it?? In fact, women suffer from mental illness much more than men and somehow the overwhelming majority of shooters are white men.
This is the type of ignorant statement, lacking any proof, that has earned you the village idiot name, Paul.
In my book, anyone who commits a violent crime has mental illness. That behavior defines mental illness. Your denial of that also indicates mental illness. My hope is you seek help for your illness, or someone loves you enough to do it for you.
Matt
