Contributors to this thread:
32 YEARS AGO THIS MORNING
I remember it clearly. It was an inspiration for all of us freshman Criminal Justice majors.
And what about Kent State??? Folks forget about that one all too often...
This shootout and the one in LA in 1997 where Officers had to use AR-15s from a nearby gun store......... Led to Police Agencies upgrading from revolvers and shotguns ..... to Patrol Rifles in every car and semi auto pistols.....
I went through the Police Academy in 1994..... And I remember the reviews of the Miami shootout. Those FBI Agents kept fighting in a horrible situation..... and 2 of them were killed.
We've had 2 fatal shootings by local jurisdictions near me in the last 4 days..... One was a mental who came at Officers with a butcher knife and the other was after a vehicle pursuit when the suspect tried to run over an Officer on foot....... This thread reminds me to be ever vigilant for 2 1/2 more years....
I believe that Florida FBI shootout was the reason they changed from the 9mm caliber to the light loaded 10mm, which then became the .40 S&W
I also remember that one of the Agents had to rest his shotgun on the bumper of a car and shoot and rack the gun one handed because his other arm was shot to pieces.... We still carry pump action shotguns along with our patrol rifles..... But that Agents' tenacity is an inspirational lesson.....
Yes Morales went on to be high up in Training. I went thru the State Academy late 91-early 92 ( a winter class ). I was disappointed that our instructors hardly touched on the after emphasis. Good thing i studied it intently on my own.
The Bureau is back on the 9mm. No way Jose, not me. While i took the vested retirement time, left my money in, and went on to start a business, my go to is the 357 magnum.
I load the 10mm today. Sammi changed ( lowered ) the pressures since the 80’s Bren Ten, Delta Elite days. I would not fire one of the original loads or duplicates from today’s guns, except the new Ruger Revolver.
We went away from 9mm early in my career and became one of the few Departments in our state to carry a .357 auto. Originally in Sig and now a Glock.
Jim..... About 7 or 8 years ago.... We had a bank robbery in a neighboring jurisdiction where about 10 scout cars chased the suspect into our city...... It was the 4th or 5th bank robbery the guy had committed...... I was able to position myself ahead of the chase and ram into the suspect car and take him out. Everything went smoothly after that and he's in prison today...... But stuff like that sure makes ur a-hole pucker...... especially thinking back on what could happen like the Miami shootout.....
Well todays agencies have wised up some. AR’s are in almost every patrol vehicle now. One thing i noticed on the Bureau training tape of the Apr 11 shootout, in the after discussions, was the notion that the bureau was not out-gunned that day. They were out-gunned. But Morales made some critical points in the tape. If you are hit and you lay down to die, then that is exactly what will happen. The perp that got you in the first place will come around the car, wall, etc and he WILL get you and you WILL be dead.
Anybody who wants to watch this tape, it is now on the net. So much time has passed.
That's exactly the lesson they taught us in the academy from that shootout.....
I'm thinking of converted my Sig P229 from .40 S&W to .357 Sig. I'm a sucker for muzzle velocity. Hoping for an uneventful 2 1/2 years for you Big Bear. I hope you arrest your limit of felons and such....but hope you stay safe while you do it.
Thanks.... at 51 years of age I'm an old timer for this job.... It's a young man's game if you work in a city that's busy..... I'm like a 39 year old baseball player..... over the hill......haaaa
This video is from the Movie.. "In the Line of Duty" ... Ive watched the full movie more than once.... movie recreation from what Ive read was very accurate..... the the Revolver was about useless, and 9mm were S&W 459's .... at THAT time, 9mm's were inadequate, now the loads are much better... the FBI dropped the Idea of using 10mm's because some of their agents couldnt handle the handguns and loads and other problems with the handguns .... I believe they are now using Glock 19M's in 9mm ..
Here is a short history of the pistols the FBI use(d) .....
The actual training tape is now on the net.
“ Firefight “
The 9mm sammi pressure regs have not changed. The standard that All ammo makers must abide by.
Here is the Actual Training Tape
Jim.... A side note on that bank robbery chase I was involved in. An Officer from another jurisdiction was close to me and got out of his car and threw down stop sticks. When the suspect swerved around the stop sticks.... I blasted him with my car and ended the chase. I took the full force in a T-bone on my passenger door. We ended up on the front lawn of a house.... I hate those stop sticks... they get Officers killed when they get out of their cars to stop a chase...... I much prefer our aggressive Department Policy of allowing us to ram in violent felonies..... But you gotta have balls to intentionally crash into a car in a pursuit.......
Typing "firefight" into your browser brings up a lot of things. But, none that I could find relating to this training video. Would you please tell everyone where to find it besides the "Net". I'd like to see it
When we changed from the 9mm...... Our Department chose the .357 auto and we were told they didn't choose the 40 because the women and smaller Officers wouldn't handle it very well.....
here ya go Mountaineer ...^^
So you guys dont agree that the modern ammo for the 9mm makes it very effective? I have a 9 and 40 but man I like my 9 in a Sig P938. It is very accurate for such a small gun. I dont think the ballistic gel really suffices for when hitting bone but Im assuming the FBI does other tests as well.
Our County Sheriff's have the option with their Sigs... .357 Sig or the .40.... many go with the .357 Sig... just a simple barrel switch out and both cals. use the same Mag.
The Sammi Pressure rules never went up on the 9, so it cannot really improve.
Copy and paste the http link i provided.
That is the actual training tape
correct. The 9x19 of today is no hotter than the 9x19 of yesterday. What has improved is the bullets made today are better at imparting energy to the target. If you are shooting ball ammo...no difference.
The .38 super would be the obvious solution. Same thing as a 4" .357 in a semiauto. Or better yet a 9X23. The women and itty bitty guys should be able to use either. It makes no sense to arm the entire police force with inadequate equipment because a few cant handle what is effective.
"The Sammi Pressure rules never went up on the 9, so it cannot really improve."
Actually it can and has. Look at the testing done on Lucky Gunners website. My XDm is loaded with 124gr Federal HST's. 16-18" Penetration and almost 2X bullet diameter expansion with full mass retention.
As a reloader, they cannot exceed the maximum saami pressure.
while they may not exceed the pressure, the actual terminal bullet performance of the 9mm has improved tremendously ... we have discussed this time and again in previous threads on here ...
I would not use it. You have to watch that you do not race ahead and choose a desired end, then back up and “ see “ the facts in a way that points to your chosen desired end.
It is what it is. And if pressures did not go up, the projectile is only going to travel the same depth.
Give it up. The 9 is a poor choice.
Crap,here we go again .. no, the 9's can be and are a very good choice in many if not most instances .. esp. With many of the new loads out there, even for the compacts like i CC with .... there are some great +p loads available ... the 9mm is used by more departments and agencies world wide than any other ...
Interesting discussion. The .357 sig is basically a necked down .40 (a cheap buddy of mine made his that way rather than just buying .357 sig brass). While the 9x23 is a necked down full size 10mm. Wicked fast and powerful, but too much in my opinion.
When you talk 9mm pressures, take a look at the 9x21 specs (very popular in europe). The is a slightly longer 9mm case with the same exact case base design. So really just a bit more brass length at the top. And if loaded with the same bullet to the same overall length, the 9 x19 and 9x21 will experience the same exact internal pressures. Whether SAAMI wants to accept it or not.
In IPSC/USPSA sports they finally accepted this math and have the typical 9x19 loaded long (we call it a Major-9) delivering a 124gr bullet at over 1330 fps. We generally use true 5" barrels though, making it much easier to achieve.
Im using the new 150 grain HST 9mm ammo. Very impressive on tests done. I hope its good enough.
You can argue ballistics and calibers until the cows come home.... but the biggest advancements to come of the Miami and LA shootouts were arming Law Enforcement with semi-automatic pistols and putting ARs in pretty much every Police Car in the Country. When I first hired on in 1993 as a Police Cadet..... Our department was transitioning from Smith & Wesson revolvers in .357 to 9mm Sigs. After many years of poor performance by the 9mm in shootings..... We changed to 357 auto. But those 9mms were probably 17 or 18 years ago.
By far the biggest assets added to Law Enforcement in my career have been Tasers. And then the ARs and semi auto pistols. Tasers were a game changer.... I bet we physically fight with people 80% less (Maybe even 90) Than before we had Tasers.
I would also add......there are ways that cartridges can be made to shoot hotter without SAMMI changing. My .300 RUM has really benefited from the new slower burning powders like Retumbo. It probably still has room for improvement with slower burning powder yet to be developed. I'm shooting farther and harder today just because the massive amount of powder in that big over bored magnum is getting more completely burned before the bullet leaves that 26" barrel.
Big Bear - are you launching the flying fish-hooks?
Slow burn powder no good in handgun.
1) barrel too short
2) muzzle flash unburnt powder.
"When we changed from the 9mm...... Our Department chose the .357 auto and we were told they didn't choose the 40 because the women and smaller Officers wouldn't handle it very well....."
Our sheriff recently switched from Glock .45 to 9mm (also Glock). Rumor was he couldn't handle the .45. ;) Since as a reserve, I have to supply my own weapon, I get to pick whatever I want. I'm still carrying my Walther PPS in .40, but did buy one of the .45's when they traded them in. Captain actually handed me the one the training officer had carried so it is a little tricked out. I just haven't had a chance to qualify with it since then so I don't carry it yet.
Yep. Short barrels mean fast powder to be efficient.
I will give yall this : bullet technology has improved. And I always liked the Beretta 5" barreled 92F, and it's reliable garand-type open action. Being a reloader, I could push the limit until pressure signs appear ( flattened primers, etc ). It would be more reliable than Agent Dove's S&W 459.
But still not me. I like get it over with big calibers.
I'm at the range all day today for AR training........ It sucks to get paid to shoot all day !!! Ha !!!!!
hopefully the weather is nice....range day in bad weather sucks.
Weather was awesome.... started out a little drizzly but the sun came out and near 70 degrees..... not sure how many cases of ammo we went through but it was a ton.... good stuff !!
A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work...8^)
there are many good loads available for every pistol caliber there is now a days..... it can be said and shown in various testing on certain barricades like Glass/Windshields and even doors and metal that some 9mm loads out perform a .45acp... but one can not discount the big 240 gr. bullet of those 45's either and the shock imparted when they impact soft flesh and bone... there are many scenarios where perp's have been hit by large calibers, and kept going, and the defender ran out of ammo because of the lower mag. capacity of the .45 .... the main thing is to use what one is proficient with, and always carry extra mags or speed loaders for the revolvers... you can never have enough ammo available ...
Spike Bull posted a study, it was rather in depth, of GSW's and one shot stops. It was data collected from ER's over a number of years. Short of it, 9mm, .40SW & .45 averaged 50% on one shot stops.
Yep, in one of the older threads we had on here I posted something similar.... with the loads nowadays , many of the calibers are about equal, hence my saying use what you are proficient with ...
this is one of the articles I had post before ... 9mm vs the .45 .. ^^^