Carbon Express Arrows
Small Engine Repair
Community
Contributors to this thread:
Thunderflight 13-Jun-18
Woods Walker 13-Jun-18
bb 13-Jun-18
AccMan 13-Jun-18
Thunderflight 13-Jun-18
Shuteye 13-Jun-18
zeke 14-Jun-18
EF Hutton 14-Jun-18
Joey Ward 14-Jun-18
Bogie 14-Jun-18
Norseman 14-Jun-18
Thunderflight 14-Jun-18
longbeard 14-Jun-18
Brotsky 14-Jun-18
TD 14-Jun-18
bb 14-Jun-18
longbeard 14-Jun-18
Grey Ghost 14-Jun-18
Thunderflight 15-Jun-18
Thunderflight 15-Jun-18
AccMan 15-Jun-18
Grey Ghost 15-Jun-18
Joey Ward 15-Jun-18
bb 15-Jun-18
Thunderflight 15-Jun-18
itshot 15-Jun-18
Grey Ghost 15-Jun-18
Bowfreak 15-Jun-18
Joey Ward 15-Jun-18
AccMan 15-Jun-18
itshot 15-Jun-18
AccMan 15-Jun-18
AccMan 15-Jun-18
TD 15-Jun-18
Thunderflight 15-Jun-18
JL 15-Jun-18
TD 16-Jun-18
AccMan 16-Jun-18
Thunderflight 17-Jun-18
JL 17-Jun-18
Thunderflight 17-Jun-18
JL 17-Jun-18
Thunderflight 18-Jun-18
Joey Ward 18-Jun-18
bb 18-Jun-18
JL 18-Jun-18
Thunderflight 18-Jun-18
TD 19-Jun-18
JL 19-Jun-18
Dirk Diggler 19-Jun-18
Thunderflight 19-Jun-18
Thunderflight 19-Jun-18
OkieJ 20-Jun-18
Pat Lefemine 20-Jun-18
Salagi 20-Jun-18
Thunderflight 20-Jun-18
Thunderflight 20-Jun-18
13-Jun-18
This is kinda hunting related because without my riding tractor I can't get my food plot in.

Sunday I'm mowing in areas no sane person would take a riding tractor when I hit a rock. I didn't hit it hard and I shut off the mower deck before I backed off. The rock was small and I barely nicked it. When I turned off the deck the whole mower shut down and won't start. It'll crank like a champ, but will not kick over.

So far this is what I have done and the darn thing still wont start:

-Pulled the fly wheel and the shear pin looks as new as the one I just bought at the John Deere store.

-Both spark plugs are sparking

-I have compression, but I haven't put a gauge on it to see how much.

-Replaced the fuel pump

-You can hear the fuel shut off thingy tick in the carburetor when you turn the ignition to the first notch.

-I put a few drops of gas in the air intake and the first cylinder fired, but didn't start the engine.

-The 25 amp fuze is fine

The only thing I have not done is replace the relay which I will probably do tomorrow.

I'm not an engine expert, but it seems to me I have covered all the bases. I'm thinking that since it died when the deck switch was shut off that I probably have a short or bad switch somewhere. I probably should down load the wiring schematics and start testing wires with a multi meter.

Oh, my riding tractor is an old Scotts L2048 (same thing as a John Deere L120) with a Briggs and Stratton 20 hp OHV motor.

Thanks for any advise.....

From: Woods Walker
13-Jun-18
Some mowers have built in safety switches on them that won't let the engine start if you're not sitting in the seat, the brake isn't off, etc. When you hit the rock you may have damaged one of these.

Also.....some mowers won't start if the oil's low. Just some guesses. Let us know what you find.

From: bb
13-Jun-18
If you pour fuel in the carb and it fires, it's likely you aren?t getting gas did you change the fuel filters? Could be a sensor. worth checking that out. I know guys that will pull the fuel line off and crank the engine to see if it pumps fuel. but I would never suggest you do that.

From: AccMan
13-Jun-18
If you can pour gas through the carb and it will fire then you are not getting gas. When you hit the rock did it jar the gas shutoff closed? Stranger things have happened. Or maybe the needle in the carb is stuck.

13-Jun-18
AccMan, you might be right. I probably need to clean the carb out. Maybe something is sticking.

From: Shuteye
13-Jun-18
I would try a shot of starter fluid in the carb before pouring gasoline in there. If you have the plugs firing it will start at least for a few seconds. If it starts and stops it isn't getting fuel. If it doesn't fire you have an electrical problem. Once you isolate which problem it is you can go from there.

From: zeke
14-Jun-18
Some engines have a safety solenoid on the carb that shuts the gas off if the you don't set on the seat, engage the brake, disengage the deck etc. If i remember correctly it is controlled by a wire that clips to the bowl or near there.

From: EF Hutton
14-Jun-18
I cannot maintain patience with small engines . I once wrapped a chainsaw around a pine tree. Two more went flying across the yard. A Stihl brushcutter got wrapped around a fence. And the old 3 wheeler, i’ll leave that one out. No, i cannot help you with small engines.

From: Joey Ward
14-Jun-18
Verify you have plenty of gas in the tank. Could be out of fuel. :-)

From: Bogie
14-Jun-18
Put Star-tron fuel additive in your gas. run seafoam in your gas to clean out the build up of gas-varnish

From: Norseman
14-Jun-18
Check your choke and throttle cables. They may of popped off the carb. Also change out your fuel filter and check fuel pump. Good luck

14-Jun-18
I'm pretty sure it has to be electrical. One thing I forgot to add was that I went to pull the plug on the relay to check the connections for corrosion. When I tugged on it the whole relay came out. Our local John Deere store has one and it isn't expensive. Hopefully this will fix it. If not, hey, at least I've got a new relay and fuel pump installed..... LOL

From: longbeard
14-Jun-18
This is an interesting and refreshing change from what is usually written here. I really can’t add anything that wasn’t already mentioned. My interest is piqued please let us know what you figured it out to be

From: Brotsky
14-Jun-18
I love figuring this stuff out. Please do come back and let us know what ends up being the culprit. Lots of good advice already given!

From: TD
14-Jun-18
I'm betting no spark, likely some kind of safety interlock switch. Easy to check spark, especially if you have a little brother..... Most auto stores will have a spark tester to check it, they are pretty cheap and handy. Or if you have two people one can pull the plug wire, plug a screwdriver in it and hold the shank about 1/4" off some grounded part of the engine. Make sure you/they are holding the plastic handle! Will need someone on the seat cranking it over, in neutral, blade/deck disengaged, maybe pushing a clutch, etc. so interlocks are engaged.

If no spark, quick and easy is to cycle through all the deck/blade engagement controls to make sure they are fully disengaged or the deck lifted. Seat switch is fully engaged, etc. Trans sometimes has to be in neutral, etc. (many have a reverse kill if deck is down and engaged and you back up)

Still no spark? These engines are grounded out to stop them, not like automotive and shut off power to the system. There will be a "kill" wire running to the engine. Disconnect it and try to start. My guess is it will fire up, if it does you will have to reconnect to shut it off. Then it's a matter of finding out which switch or wire is the issue. Don't overlook oil level switches, etc. especially if the equipment is on a slope.

Let us know what you finally wind up with!

From: bb
14-Jun-18
Problem with that theory is he confirmed he was getting spark, even dumped gas in the carb and got it to fire. My bet is the relay he unplugged drives the fuel pump and is preventing the pump from sending fuel.

From: longbeard
14-Jun-18
I’m heading to NJ now to place a bet on what bb described!!

From: Grey Ghost
14-Jun-18
I agree with bb, as well. He's getting spark since the engine fired briefly when he dumped fuel in the carb.

Assuming it's a mechanical fuel pump, I'd disconnect the fuel line at the carb and stick the end of the line in a jar, then crank it over a few times. There should be healthy squirts of fuel. That will confirm fuel delivery. I've had brand new mechanical pumps that didn't work right out of the box.

If the pump checks out, that leaves air. Have you replaced the air filter lately? I've never had a dirty filter prevent an engine from starting, but stranger things have happened.

Beyond that, I'd start looking into any automatic shutoff features that are on the engine. My tractor's engine will shut down in neutral If I don't set the brake before standing from the seat, or if I try to stand with the tractor in gear. One time, the wire to the switch under the seat came loose, and the engine wouldn't start. Took me a while to hunt down that one.

Good luck,

Matt

15-Jun-18
UGH!!!!

Spark: Yes Compression: Yes New fuel pump: Yes (works off vacuum) New Relay: Yes Fuse: Good Fly wheel sheer pin: Good gas in carb air intake, did it fire: Yes

OK, so It's obvious I'm not getting fuel. I'm guessing my fuel shut off valve isn't working even though I can hear it click when I turn the ignition key. This sucker isn't cheap. I'll be shooting wires before I buy it.

15-Jun-18
UGH!!!!

Spark: Yes Compression: Yes New fuel pump: Yes (works off vacuum) New Relay: Yes Fuse: Good Fly wheel sheer pin: Good gas in carb air intake, did it fire: Yes

OK, so It's obvious I'm not getting fuel. I'm guessing my fuel shut off valve isn't working even though I can hear it click when I turn the ignition key. This sucker isn't cheap. I'll be shooting wires before I buy it.

From: AccMan
15-Jun-18
If you disconnect the fuel line from the carb and cut on the ignition switch I would think you should have a stream of fuel running out, and if not the switch is not mechanically opening even though you hear the click. Can't you bypass the fuel shutoff with a longer piece of hose?

From: Grey Ghost
15-Jun-18
IIRC, on some engines you can simply remove that shut-off solenoid and plug the hole. It's not absolutely necessary to run the engine with one.

Matt

From: Joey Ward
15-Jun-18
I sure hope you've check the fuel tank.

No need to ask me how I know. ;-)

From: bb
15-Jun-18
Change the fuel filters, inexpensive to rule that out as an issue

15-Jun-18
Joey, LOL I actually did that, but not until I had worked on it for a few hours.

BB, no issues with the filter. It flows great.

From: itshot
15-Jun-18
if you get fuel and still nothing, spark timing was whacked when you whacked rock, just a guess but have seen it happen

From: Grey Ghost
15-Jun-18
Perhaps this will help.

Matt

From: Bowfreak
15-Jun-18
zeke has the answer. The solenoid shuts off the flow of fuel when the key is off. It keeps the engine from backfiring. It should screw right into the bowl of the carb. They are easy to test. I had one fail on a Murry/MTD mower I had a few years ago.

Also...there is a chance you can take it out and clean it up and make it work again. I did that to mine for a while and it worked until the wire sheared off.

From: Joey Ward
15-Jun-18
Ok then. :-)

Here's a link to the owners manual, if you don't have one. May be of some help.

https://www.deere.com/common/docs/stellar/answer-center/Scotts-S2048-S2554.pdf

Itshot suggests a timing issue. I think the valves got out of adjustment on the hit.

You might want to look at youtube to find a good tutorial on adjusting the valves on that B&S twin. May be of value.

Other than what you've already done, I'm out of ideas.

Good luck

From: AccMan
15-Jun-18
If you disconnect the fuel line from the carb and cut on the ignition switch I would think you should have a stream of fuel running out, and if not the switch is not mechanically opening even though you hear the click. Can't you bypass the fuel shutoff with a longer piece of hose?

From: itshot
15-Jun-18
good point joey, if overhead cam type, the cam gear or chain could slip or rocker could flop off valve stem... lots of things happen when things in rapid motion are suddenly forced to stop

hoping its just fuel supply issue though

From: AccMan
15-Jun-18
This thread has made me go look at my mower. I have the first rider in years with the new big yard. Holy crap, it has a fuel pump and electric shutoff valve on the carb. What happened to simplicity? I bet the shutoff valve is because of ethanol gasoline ruining the viton tips on needle valves letting carbs flood and empty tanks in the garage while parked. I watched the posted video on the shut off valve and as dense as I am I just had to go research mine and was shocked at what I found.

From: AccMan
15-Jun-18
I have re-read the original post and it seems that the motor fires after pouring gas through the carb. I would bet on the solenoid gas cutoff valve in the carb. If you have a bad connection giving voltage drop the plunger probably wouldn't move far enough to allow gas flow. Run a jumper directly from the + side of the battery to the solenoid connection and see if it will start. If so, check voltage at the connector and see if you get full 12 volts to ground.

From: TD
15-Jun-18
Need fuel pump (normally vacuum pulse fuel pump) because it's common now to have the fuel tank as low or lower than the carb, no gravity flow. The fuel solenoid is so when you shut off the engine, especially at higher rpms, raw unburnt fuel does not keep getting pumped through the engine and into a red hot muffler where it explodes in a "backfire". Or in some cases a hot spot in the cylinder head will continue to ignite the fuel without an ignition spark and keep stumbling along running or "dieseling".

If you can hear/feel the fuel solenoid clicking it's likely working, not much to them but windings and a rod/needle and the valve seat hole is so big I've never seen one clogged. Have seen rubbish jam up the needle in the windings, but they won't move or "click"then.

Still need to check the spark to make sure it is steady and strong. If it were fuel if should start and run a few seconds with a shot of starting fluid (great diagnostic tool). Not just a random one time "pop" (which actually could be a timing issue like itshot and joey said. I've seen pushrods come off rockers on OHV engines. (Honda's, probably have 30 or 40 of em at the shop.... haven't worked on a Briggs engine in 10 or 12 years)

If good spark I'd take a look at the carb float bowl next, most will have some kind of a drain plug, some even a drain valve. Check for water. if you were Baja racing sometimes water that can accumulate at the bottom of the tank will slosh up into the pickup. Easy to check before diving into the carb. A big fan of checking things that are easy first. =D

15-Jun-18
When it rains it pours... my F150 tansmission just went out...

From: JL
15-Jun-18
A question to clean up the rabbit holes....

1. Looking at your OP....I need to clarify....AFTER you hit the rock and BEFORE you shut off the deck PTO...was the engine running normally?

If NO....the engine did not run normally right AFTER rock contact, then we need to ask a few more questions about the engine.

If YES....the engine ran normally BEFORE you moved the deck PTO (shut off the blades), we need to take a closer look at your deck PTO switch system.

If I read your OP correctly....the engine shut down after you physically moved the deck PTO to stop the blades...yes??....no?? If the engine ran normally immediately after the rock hit....it doesn't sound like you have an engine internal, fuel or spark problem. If the rock hit did create an issue with one of those 3 things....logic would tell us the engine would not have run normally after the rock hit regardless of any further action you took after the rock hit.

Might have to start another thread about your F150 tranny.

From: TD
16-Jun-18
F-150 trans........ Talk to Joey...... can't help ya there..... =D

From: AccMan
16-Jun-18

AccMan's Link
Trans rebuild

17-Jun-18
Well I give up. I'm taking it to a local guy who does small engine repair.

Last night I cleaned up the carburetor and did a function check on the fuel shut off solenoid (works just fine). This morning I put it all back together and still nothing.

There is something up with the fuel pump. I don't know if there isn't enough vacuum to get it to work or maybe I just have another bad fuel pump.

Either way I'm pretty much done screwing around with it.

My F150 is at the local Ford dealer. It started slipping, the Transmission Fault warning came on, the Over Drive light started flashing, and it's leaking fluid out of the rubber plug on the bottom of the bell. Sucks, but it's a 2005 with 170K on it. I hate to say it, but this kinda stuff is to be expected.

From: JL
17-Jun-18
T-Flt.....was it running normally before you disengaged the blades?

Sorry to hear about your tranny....better now than the day before the opener.

17-Jun-18
Yelp it was running great.

From: JL
17-Jun-18
"" Yelp it was running great. ""

Ok.....based on that confirmation.....me thinks if it was running great up to the point you pushed in the PTO switch....I see you're problem in one of the switches and NOT an engine problem.

I had a diagram last night of your lawn tractor's electrical system. Because it shut off only when you moved the PTO shut off, that would be a logical place to start.

It should have an electrical connection somewhere there as part of the engage/electrical safety system. Check the electrical connection and make sure it is properly connected, not loose or broken wires....something obvious. If nothing observed, remove it, check for corrosion, dirt, funk and spray it out with some WD-40 and reconnect. Try to start. It's possible the switch itself is bad. In that case you'll need to do some switch testing if you're comfortable with it.

Check your seat safety switch/wires the same way as above.

Check the brake/clutch/neutral switches/wires the same way as above.

Confirm oil sensor connection/wires as above. (and oil level)

Confirm ALL fuse links are good and not blown....use a meter.

Check the key switch and wires as above.

Hopefully it's one of those switches in the electrical safety system. If not, we can go from there.

18-Jun-18
Man, thanks I appreciate you taking the time to dig into this.

I never did check all the wires. I'll take a look at these tonight.

From: Joey Ward
18-Jun-18
Electrical is fine. If it was malfunctioning safety switch, the engine would not turn over. i.e., seat, brake, deck........ You can rule those out.

So now we're down to air or spark.

Only way timing can get off on those engines if the keyway on the shaft is broke. He verified it's fine.

Getting spark on both cyclinders? Verify that.

Air cleaner clean? Easy enough to look at. Remove and clean off.

Couple shots of starter fluid in the carb should fire her up. At least for a few seconds.

You could try cranking with the gas cap off. See what she does. Vapor lock somewhere?

Only other thing I can think of is when you hit the rock, pushrods may have crimped slightly throwing the valve positioning off.

Sorry about your truck. Alwys a good idea to periodically check trans fluid level, color, and smell. That milage on that year truck shoul;d not have much to do with engine or trans issues if maintained.

Can't help you out more on that end. Fixing trans problems is outta my wheelhouse.

From: bb
18-Jun-18
I know this has been mentioned several times but did you actually verify that you have fuel being pumped by the fuel pump? disconnect fuel hose and pump into a coffee can?

From: JL
18-Jun-18
My Craftsman will run if you get off the seat with the key in position #2. It will start if you depress the clutch and off the seat. If you get off the seat in key position #3 it will shut down. Point being it could still be a switch or wiring....at least on a Craftsman. That is why I leaned that way. It was running fine up to the point he turned off the PTO/blades. Based on that is why I'm suspect it is in the switch/safety system. If something in the valve train got bent or messed up on the impact....it should have been obvious while the engine was running. There should have been funny noises, tapping, maybe backfiring and even shutting down.

However.....not to get tunnel vision....I did some more looking online and quiet a few JD folks had the fuel tank vent cap clogged. He could unscrew the cap and try to start it. If it starts then clean out the small hole on the cap.

I had a spark plug a couple of years ago on a mower that looked like it was sparking good. I replaced the plug anyway and that solved the problem. He said one cylinder fired when gas was put in. New plugs would be worth a try. At the same time I'd check the compression with a gauge.

18-Jun-18
Ok all the switches are good.

Fuel is not coming out of the fuel pump.

I cant get it to start with starter fluid.

Pouring a few drops of gas down the air intake has occasionally worked.

Well, my tranny repair will cost me 2500 or so. Its ok, its better than the 4k the Ford dealer 2anted to charge me.....eek

From: TD
19-Jun-18
Not familiar with that engine..... but fuel pump is likely vacuum pulse. If it's not turning over (fairly fast too...) no fuel will pump.

Find a kid or spouse to hold the plug wire terminal when cranking..... (just kidding..... kinda.... my lil brother still brings this stuff up from like 45 years ago....) Cheap spark tester from the auto parts store. Great tools. Last a lifetime.

Not gonna help the tranny though..... sorry... (sigh... I remember when "tranny" had pretty much only one meaning.....)

From: JL
19-Jun-18
Did you unscrew the gas cap and try to start it?

From: Dirk Diggler
19-Jun-18
Coulda just been sold a bad fuel pump. Wouldn't be the first time.

19-Jun-18
JL, yelp I've already done that.

DD, I'm wondering the same thing.

19-Jun-18
JL, yelp I've already done that.

DD, I'm wondering the same thing.

From: OkieJ
20-Jun-18
I have a older John Deere mower also and I had a incident where I wasn't getting fuel from the fuel line and noticed fuel filter was dry. After trying several things i decided it had a plugged line from the tank, so I took cap off and used a compressor to blow into the tank with a rag over the fill spout and the problem was solved.

From: Pat Lefemine
20-Jun-18
I find myself strangely drawn to this thread. I need to know how this ends!

From: Salagi
20-Jun-18
Me too Pat.

20-Jun-18
Endorsed by Pat!

Awesome!

Still working at it.

20-Jun-18
Tranny: major leak coming from the torque converter. Itll be rebuilt and back in in next week.

I need to start a go fund me account to pay for it... LOL

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