Michele Leqve - Under Attack
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
tthomas 09-Mar-12
Medicine Bow 09-Mar-12
Charlie Rehor 09-Mar-12
Pat Lefemine 09-Mar-12
Canadian Caveman. 09-Mar-12
Glunt@work 09-Mar-12
JTV 09-Mar-12
SDHNTR 09-Mar-12
Bigpizzaman 09-Mar-12
TD 09-Mar-12
Bear Track 09-Mar-12
XTREMEBWHNTRSS 11-Mar-12
Two Feathers 11-Mar-12
JLS 11-Mar-12
Willieboat 11-Mar-12
fuzzy 13-Mar-12
SDHNTR 13-Mar-12
Nomad@work 13-Mar-12
tthomas 13-Mar-12
XTREMEBWHNTRSS 13-Mar-12
flyingbrass 13-Mar-12
flyingbrass 13-Mar-12
TD 14-Mar-12
XTREMEBWHNTRSS 14-Mar-12
Slick Trick 2 14-Mar-12
ilandhunter 15-Mar-12
tthomas 16-Mar-12
moon 17-Mar-12
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 12-Mar-18
jstephens61 12-Mar-18
Tonybear61 12-Mar-18
APauls 12-Mar-18
Z Barebow 12-Mar-18
Pat Lefemine 12-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 12-Mar-18
Bowfreak 12-Mar-18
Jaquomo 12-Mar-18
LUNG$HOT 12-Mar-18
Pigsticker 12-Mar-18
midwest 12-Mar-18
Pat Lefemine 12-Mar-18
Pigsticker 12-Mar-18
TD 12-Mar-18
Scoot 12-Mar-18
JTV 12-Mar-18
APauls 12-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 12-Mar-18
Jaquomo 12-Mar-18
Ambush 12-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 12-Mar-18
Ambush 12-Mar-18
WV Mountaineer 12-Mar-18
stick n string 12-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 12-Mar-18
Ambush 12-Mar-18
orionsbrother 12-Mar-18
APauls 12-Mar-18
Ambush 12-Mar-18
Paul@thefort 12-Mar-18
JLeMieux 12-Mar-18
JTV 12-Mar-18
JTV 12-Mar-18
drycreek 12-Mar-18
JTV 12-Mar-18
stick n string 13-Mar-18
Pigsticker 13-Mar-18
Scoot 13-Mar-18
GotBowAz 13-Mar-18
PAbowhunter1064 13-Mar-18
stick n string 13-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 13-Mar-18
Pigsticker 13-Mar-18
Pigsticker 13-Mar-18
Pigsticker 13-Mar-18
Pigsticker 13-Mar-18
JTV 13-Mar-18
Ambush 13-Mar-18
APauls 13-Mar-18
midwest 13-Mar-18
Ambush 13-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 13-Mar-18
JTV 13-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 13-Mar-18
JTV 13-Mar-18
Ambush 13-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 13-Mar-18
TD 13-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 13-Mar-18
JTV 13-Mar-18
Bill Obeid 13-Mar-18
Scoot 13-Mar-18
Ambush 13-Mar-18
Mad Trapper 14-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 14-Mar-18
stick n string 14-Mar-18
Scoot 14-Mar-18
JTV 14-Mar-18
smarba 14-Mar-18
Medicinemann 14-Mar-18
Bogie 14-Mar-18
Ambush 14-Mar-18
Ambush 14-Mar-18
Mad Trapper 14-Mar-18
TD 14-Mar-18
Ambush 14-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher 14-Mar-18
CCRider 14-Mar-18
Rock 14-Mar-18
Ambush 14-Mar-18
TD 14-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 14-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 14-Mar-18
stick n string 14-Mar-18
Bowbender 14-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher 14-Mar-18
Ambush 14-Mar-18
JTV 14-Mar-18
JTV 14-Mar-18
stick n string 14-Mar-18
elk yinzer 14-Mar-18
JTV 15-Mar-18
TD 15-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher 15-Mar-18
David A. 15-Mar-18
David A. 15-Mar-18
JB 15-Mar-18
Alexis Desjardins 15-Mar-18
JTV 15-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 15-Mar-18
Ambush 15-Mar-18
JTV 15-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 15-Mar-18
Ambush 15-Mar-18
Bowbender 15-Mar-18
JTV 15-Mar-18
stick n string 15-Mar-18
Ambush 15-Mar-18
stick n string 15-Mar-18
Ambush 15-Mar-18
stick n string 15-Mar-18
David A. 15-Mar-18
David A. 15-Mar-18
Medicinemann 16-Mar-18
David A. 16-Mar-18
Medicinemann 16-Mar-18
Bowbender 16-Mar-18
Boreal 16-Mar-18
Bowbender 16-Mar-18
Ambush 16-Mar-18
Sling Shot 16-Mar-18
Medicinemann 16-Mar-18
Rock 16-Mar-18
JTV 16-Mar-18
sticksender 16-Mar-18
midwest 16-Mar-18
smarba 16-Mar-18
David A. 16-Mar-18
TD 16-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher 16-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 16-Mar-18
JTV 16-Mar-18
ground hunter 16-Mar-18
TD 17-Mar-18
David A. 17-Mar-18
David A. 17-Mar-18
Ambush 17-Mar-18
stick n string 17-Mar-18
BIG BEAR 17-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher 17-Mar-18
Boreal 17-Mar-18
WV Mountaineer 17-Mar-18
Bill Obeid 17-Mar-18
brooktrout59 17-Mar-18
TD 17-Mar-18
Surfbow 18-Mar-18
David A. 18-Mar-18
Ambush 18-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 18-Mar-18
David A. 18-Mar-18
stick n string 18-Mar-18
David A. 18-Mar-18
Surfbow 18-Mar-18
Yttails 18-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher 18-Mar-18
brooktrout59 18-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 19-Mar-18
TD 19-Mar-18
TD 19-Mar-18
TD 19-Mar-18
TD 19-Mar-18
David A. 19-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher 19-Mar-18
JTV 19-Mar-18
Dutch oven 19-Mar-18
JTV 19-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 19-Mar-18
Dutch oven 19-Mar-18
David A. 19-Mar-18
Tonybear61 19-Mar-18
smarba 20-Mar-18
David A. 20-Mar-18
Ambush 20-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 20-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 20-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 20-Mar-18
JTV 20-Mar-18
PAbowhunter1064 20-Mar-18
PAbowhunter1064 20-Mar-18
PAbowhunter1064 20-Mar-18
Bill Obeid 20-Mar-18
stick n string 20-Mar-18
fastflight 20-Mar-18
stick n string 20-Mar-18
HUNT MAN 20-Mar-18
Medicinemann 20-Mar-18
Tonybear61 20-Mar-18
Tonybear61 20-Mar-18
David A. 21-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher 21-Mar-18
David A. 21-Mar-18
Tonybear61 21-Mar-18
Scoot 21-Mar-18
Ambush 21-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 22-Mar-18
Tonybear61 22-Mar-18
elk yinzer 22-Mar-18
Scoot 22-Mar-18
TD 22-Mar-18
JTV 22-Mar-18
Bake 22-Mar-18
Ambush 22-Mar-18
Scoot 22-Mar-18
JTV 22-Mar-18
David A. 23-Mar-18
Buskill 23-Mar-18
JTV 24-Mar-18
Bill Obeid 24-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 24-Mar-18
JTV 24-Mar-18
Pigsticker 24-Mar-18
Tonybear61 24-Mar-18
Ambush 24-Mar-18
stick n string 24-Mar-18
David A. 24-Mar-18
TD 24-Mar-18
David A. 24-Mar-18
JB 24-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans 25-Mar-18
Ambush 25-Mar-18
JTV 25-Mar-18
Bowbender 25-Mar-18
BIG BEAR 25-Mar-18
David A. 25-Mar-18
LUNG$HOT 26-Mar-18
JTV 04-Apr-18
Bill Obeid 04-Apr-18
Dutch oven 04-Apr-18
JTV 05-Apr-18
From: tthomas
09-Mar-12

tthomas's embedded Photo
tthomas's embedded Photo

tthomas's Link
I have been working a project with the newly formed bowhunting chapter of SCI. As a founding director our goal is to protect and increase bowhunting opportunities, help educate the public and increase bowhunter awareness and bowhunters. I thought by interviewing women bowhunters it would help encourage more women to get out and enjoy nature and even take up the bow. By holding out some exceptional women archers, my hope was encourage, husbands, boyfriends and fathers to expose the ladies in their lives to hunting.

My interview of Michele was well received and lots of positive comments as both men and women. Recently she has come under attack by some anti hunting group.

I reached out to Michele to take down her interview but haven't heard back. It will be her call of course.

Darn, anti's. Polar bears are not going extinct. Michele is not evil. Just the opposite, she is a wonderful lady who is a credit to hunters and women everywhere.

Just go down and look at the comments.

From: Medicine Bow
09-Mar-12
I don't believe she should back down to anti's. That's what they want.

09-Mar-12
I hunted with Michele and her husband Jim in Newfoundland a few years ago and know both of them very well. Absolutely top notch folks. I am SURE she can handle this stuff and these cowards surely don't want to mess with Jim!! She will not want it taken down!!

Tom: Any idea where your SCI stuff is appearing that attracts the anti's? That would be interesting to figure out if they are tracking you personally for some reason.

From: Pat Lefemine
09-Mar-12
Never a good idea to allow anonymous messages on public pages. You are asking for trouble.

09-Mar-12
There seems to be a lot of anti attacks on woman huntresses lately. I'm in contact with many on facebook and not a week goes by without "anti hunter" drama.

I'm wondering if ara's perceive woman as weak and therefore more likely to give in to pressure? I personally know nothing could be farther from the truth but its just a thought.

From: Glunt@work
09-Mar-12
If thats your site, I would suggest removing the comments that include inappropriate language and threats/wishes of violence or death.

From: JTV
09-Mar-12
Simple....stay away from Facebook....Jeff

From: SDHNTR
09-Mar-12
Take it down? I hope she doesn't decide to do that. She should be proud and plaster it everywhere!

From: Bigpizzaman
09-Mar-12
Caveman hit it on the head, they both perceive Women as weak and believe a Woman shouldn't participate in hunting! They are narrow minded and sexist to say the least. I wear my hunting on my sleeve and have been VERY outspoken about it! Only once have I been attacked verbally, it was a woman, I don't think we'll have another conversation!

From: TD
09-Mar-12
Great interview. I'd say don't let a few morons ruin things.

Delete those idiot posts and what Pat said, that guy "anonymous" on the internet is a whacko. He's always trouble. Nearly every place I know requires a sign up to post comments. Doesn't eliminate the nut cases, but sure reduces them.

Congrats Michelle, very good. I enjoyed the interview and the pics. Here's to many more adventures.....

From: Bear Track
09-Mar-12

Bear Track's Link
Tom, by the time I got to it, the anti comments were removed, and glad of it. What a great interview! Jeannine and I hope to make it to Calgary this summer. Will let you know.

Ron

11-Mar-12
THANK YOU BOWSITE FOR ALL OF THE SUPPORT!!! From all of the hate e-mails to phone calls to fb friend request,fb messages that they have been more than a handful is a understatement! Yes you are right fb can be bad, BUT with that said that is how I'm finding all these causes against me....If I wasn't on fb I wouldn't know they exist...My Polar Bear picture has been visible on the internet since 2006! But recently I have done the interview this Tom, and 2 other guys have put the Polar Bear story on their blogs, e-Magazine web sites and maybe that stirred things up! BUT I'M NOT BACKING DOWN FROM THESE NUT JOBS, THEY ARE SICK THAT IS FOR SURE...I AM A BOWHUNTER AND PROUD OF IT. I want to appoligize to Tom , Bernie, Bill, and the WomenHunters Club, for they have all been receiving the hate mail along with me...And for that I am truly sorry, and I appreciate their support! To BIGPIZZAMAN Good Luck on your upcoming Polar Bear hunt, it's an adventure of a life time I hope you get a monster!! MICHELE

From: Two Feathers
11-Mar-12
Michele - Awesome! I enjoyed reading the interview and thanks for the post!

From: JLS
11-Mar-12
Nice interview, and keep the faith. You have about as much luck convincing one of these folks that hunting is okay as the Pope does of convincing a Jihadist that killing innocent people in the name of Allah is wrong.

It's much more important to reach out to the millions of people who don't hunt, but are not extremist anti-hunters in their views. These are the people that make the difference at the ballot boxes.

Great photo!

From: Willieboat
11-Mar-12
Great interview !!

From: fuzzy
13-Mar-12
woot!

From: SDHNTR
13-Mar-12
Atta girl! Stand proud.

From: Nomad@work
13-Mar-12
Michele....Great job & way to represent our sport!

P.S. "Minnesota Girl!"

From: tthomas
13-Mar-12
I have deleted all the rude, threatening and ignorant comments from Michele's interview. One a positive note, there were two people who sent me emails who actually admitted that the info they received was inaccurate. One said they were told that the polar bear was in danger of becoming extinct. Another read Big Pizza Mans interview and the Lady Bowhunters pieces and realized these people are honest, caring and had high values. Although he said he would never hunt or couldn't support hunting he didn't hate hunters as he had in the past.

So although I don't think we change these extremist antis, we do as JLS says, reach out to those who are neutral or less radical and more rational. Well said JLS.

13-Mar-12
Thanks again everyone! I have found a new blog about me and my bear from Japan, and it isn't good! The guys facts are wrong and lies are told... & he drags the company I work for into it...Now I have to go talk to the HR person there and explain what is going on!! I hope it's okay to put the link on here, if not then I appoligize and Pat or Charlie please remove it! I just wanted all my hunting friends and fellow hunters on bowsite to be able to see what these people do...Thanks again I truly appreciate your support!!!

http://modernmarketingjapan.blogspot.com/2012/03/woman-kills-polar-bear-hunting-big-game.html

From: flyingbrass
13-Mar-12
I've been told that Michelle is the greatest woman hunter, the real deal, just thought I would add that....fwiw

From: flyingbrass
13-Mar-12
I've been told that Michelle is the greatest woman hunter, the real deal, just thought I would add that....fwiw

From: TD
14-Mar-12
I 3rd that motion!!!

14-Mar-12
Thanks Flyingbrass, & TD, that is super sweet of you to say, but I'm just another woman hunter and I'm learning new stuff all the time....Never will I be an expert, I love bowhunting! A friend of mine emailed this blogger guy and had him take it down, but he wants to do an interview with me or he says he'll put it back up!! I don't want him to have my email address, and I don't want to answer to him!!! Not sure what to do, have to talk to more people and also my hubby! I shouldn't have to explain or justify my Polar Bear hunt to him....My girlfriend is a sweet heart and a go getter!!! I love her!

14-Mar-12
Have you checked with Law Enforcement to see if they can track down these folks IP Addresses and bring up charges on the ones that have threatened death or slander suits in court. Hit them where it hurts them, especially if it threatens your job.

From: ilandhunter
15-Mar-12
I enjoyed reading your story , think you did a great job and wish you continued success

From: tthomas
16-Mar-12

tthomas's embedded Photo
tthomas's embedded Photo

tthomas's Link
I guess Big Pizza Man is up next. Geez, the Jakinator (aka Medicineman) flew under the radar screen on his polar bear hunt.

Support for people like Michele is a given from people like us. Lots of Canadian and American soldiers have given their lives so we had the freedom we do. We can not let any nut bar anti hunters try to take that away from us.

Its sick to think that a group or individuals, who have not fought for or sacrificed anything, think they can dictate their personal beliefs upon us.

This will soon be a photo but with a white bear.

Good luck on your hunt Tim. In Canada we have a pizza, I call it the Great White North. Maybe you can feature it at your places soon.

From: moon
17-Mar-12
Michele, always a lady and a wonderful role model.Ignore those fools who don't know how to live life to the fullest.They seem to have nothing better to do than harass someone who has higher morals ethics and confidence than they could ever possibly attain.

12-Mar-18
Killing that animal was a shameful act that diminishes all of us. I have nothing against Ms Leqve personally; but what she did was wrong and shouldn't be celebrated or encouraged.

From: jstephens61
12-Mar-18
Oh boy, someone left the backdoor open. Head to the Illinois forum and bash state employees.

From: Tonybear61
12-Mar-18
Ceart quit lying , yes you do have something personally against Ms Leqve , stop lying. Hunting Polar bears (an animal far from being extinct or endangered) is something she is proud of, the bear was taken legally and hunting fees, other expenses helped support the locals. Since you have identified yourself as a vegan, that is by choice is it not?? Ms Leqve has identified herself as a hunter by choice and that is the right of both of you to do so. Nobody is making you a vegan, so back off unless you really know what you are talking about as far as conservation, hunters ethic, the religious aspect, what can and cannot be hunted, eaten, and CELEBRATED!! Just like all human ancestors did going back about 150-180,000 years. Can you say the same about vegan, anti-hunter, folks who choose not to interact with nature at a fundamental level?? Do they support the conservation effort by equipment taxes, lisc. fees and personal donations as hunters and fishermen?? Probably not (although there is that one Gary Larson cartoon), but feel free to debate on this forum with a new topic.

As far as any death threats made or to be made on Ms Leqve her husband, family and anyone else via internet forums, be advised terroristic threats are illegal, regardless of the person's intent to carry them out or not. Same thing for threatening a legislator who attempts to pass a bill folks don't like ( pro-gun, anti gun, anti-hunting, changes in policy, etc.) That is: "a shameful act that diminishes all of us." So disagree but stop the micro aggression, violent overtones or personal threats please.

From: APauls
12-Mar-18
lol vegans stepping into the hunting forums...this oughta be good. Never thought of that approach. I should go looking for some vegan forums to get involved in.

From: Z Barebow
12-Mar-18
APauls- Apparently lack of meat protein causes episodes of invincibility. I suspect Pat has a cure.

From: Pat Lefemine
12-Mar-18
Z,

I do, but the entertainment value for allowing them to participate is priceless

12-Mar-18
Hello Tonybear61 I think only a poet could sway you.

From: Bowfreak
12-Mar-18
Please don't remove these ignorant antis from posting. It is great entertainment. Thanks for staying strong Michelle and congrats on all your past and future hunts.

From: Jaquomo
12-Mar-18
Ceart, thanks for posting your thoughts. A window to the mind of emotionally disturbed folks is educational for those of us who are rational and balanced. I sure hope you're doing ok. You aren't a "cutter" are you? If so you should probably get help. That's a sign of a far deeper problem.

From: LUNG$HOT
12-Mar-18
Hang on, let me get my popcorn and my jalapeño cheddar seasoning.

From: Pigsticker
12-Mar-18

Pigsticker's embedded Photo
Pigsticker's embedded Photo
Posting in complete anonymity is the only shameful act that I see. Hideous internet trolls with wacked out nut job handles is a classic symptom of someone who is ailing from reality detachment syndrome. I love the thought that of vegans who think that they have discovered kale as a super food after the rest of us has been eating it for 60 years. I will say that The rosemary flavored brown rice and quinoa served as great side to the attached bacon wrapped tenderloin that was cooked on top of a wood heating stove in a very Waldenesque cabin in north Georgia last week.

From: midwest
12-Mar-18
I'm having polar bear tonight. Tastes like baby seal!

From: Pat Lefemine
12-Mar-18
Midwest, sounds almost as good as my dinner: slow cooked Cecil the lion shanks.

From: Pigsticker
12-Mar-18
This nut job use of the Irish language got to thinking. Right and fair vegan brought me to the “be fair be vegan” campaign . You all need to look at the link to see what vegan and the vegan movement really means. Read this and you will really see that vegan is not a way eating but a philosophy. Sad thing is Ceart has spread her lunacy and will never return for any other reason than to gather fodder to inflame her ilk.

Remember before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment chop wood and carry water.

From: TD
12-Mar-18

TD's embedded Photo
TD's embedded Photo
Not even a very good troll...... digging up a 6 year old thread..... if you're gonna troll at least have the courtesy to follow along and stay current like the rest of the losers with no lives.....

From: Scoot
12-Mar-18
So his handle is "Ceart Ag Na Vegans" and his name is "Ceart Ag Na Vegans". From this I can surmise that either is parents hated him enough to name him horribly or he is spineless to the point of not being willing to associate his name to his words.

Internet tough guys are awesome! Vegan internet tough guys are really a hoot! Vegan internet tough guys who come on a bowhunting forum to badmouth a fine hunter and spokesperson for bowhunting... I'd say that takes balls, but given his anonymous post, I will attribute it to a complete lack of brains or rational thought processing.

From: JTV
12-Mar-18
Real humans eat meat, those that dont turn into snowflakes .... I guess all that tofu ingested by whatsitsname has produce the intended results.......

From: APauls
12-Mar-18
The more I read Pat's posts when he just posts off the cuff like a regular member of the forum the more I like him...

12-Mar-18
Pat Lefemine: Thanks Pat, much appreciated.

Jaquomo: You're welcome, and thanks for your concern. Happily, I have no compulsion to harm myself or anybody else. I hope someday you'll feel the same. Pigsticker: I haven't taken any extraordinary steps to remain anonymous, but maybe I should have! You could probably find me if you really applied yourself. What would you do with my personal information if you had it? I'm willing to subject my opinions to your scrutiny, not my body. You're a trained killer. Why would I reveal myself? I congratulate you on your culinary skills. The tenderloin looks succulent and delicious.

Midwest: Your comment doesn't offend me, but it doesn't contribute anything to the conversation. It's just kind of empty.

TD: Loser has one o. How you accept that quantum shift in your knowledge will reveal your true potential more than any further killing.

Scoot: Kindly leave my family out of this.

From: Jaquomo
12-Mar-18
Thanks for stopping by! Please say a little pagan prayer for all the animals killed during the production of your vegan food. They died so you can feel good about yourself. Bon appetit!

From: Ambush
12-Mar-18
Ceart, do you believe that...

A: man was put on earth by (a) God? or

B: we evolved naturally with the rest of the animals? or

C: we are aliens beings from somewhere with no natural place here?

12-Mar-18
Ambush: B

From: Ambush
12-Mar-18
Given “B” as your belief, do you then value all animal life (including human) as equally valuable?

12-Mar-18
Ole "B" picker is a she, not a he.

12-Mar-18

12-Mar-18
Ambush: No, of course not! I value my life far more than I value some random turkey's life. (Is that what you mean?)

From: Ambush
12-Mar-18
Yes, that’s what I was asking. So then you are not a “ rat is a pig, is a dog, is a boy” believer.

Do you believe the lives of all warm blooded (excluding humans) animals are of equal value? Or would you differentiate between cold blooded, birds and mammals? (you mentioned turkeys)

12-Mar-18
There are lots of times I'm pretty sure my wife is cold blooded. I feel diminished with each bite she takes.

Michelle was saving some of those cute seals. Why doesn't anyone care about saving seals from bears anymore?

From: APauls
12-Mar-18
Ambush, you are living true to your name...keep going.

From: Ambush
12-Mar-18
No. It’s only possible to have productive debate after the positions are established.

From: Paul@thefort
12-Mar-18
Like Ambush, I am also trying to establish Ceart's position. Ceart, you stated "killing THAT animal was a shameful act that diminishes all of us."

So does THAT also mean ALL animals? And , as you stated, "diminishes all of us". Can you explain your meaning of this statement so I can understand your position?

my best, Paul

From: JLeMieux
12-Mar-18
Out of curiosity, I pm'd ceart asking for the science behind his/her position. The response was that it was against the Golden Rule. I left it at that and had a good laugh.

From: JTV
12-Mar-18
the Golden Rule ? ..... is she nuts ... if she means the Ten Commandments, it says thou shalt not commit MURDER (not kill) .... and in the strictest sense you can not "murder" an animal, only humans can be "murdered" ... killing for food is very much OK

Ten Commandments and MosesThe Ten Commandments were written by God upon two tablets of stone and then given to Moses on mount Sinai. Most scholars date this event around the 13th or 14th century BC. God gave the Decalogue, or 10 Commandments, to the Israelites shortly after they left Egypt. The record of the Ten Commandments can be found in the Bible, both in Exodus 20:2-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21.

Ten Commandments List You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall make no idols. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. Keep the Sabbath day holy. Honor your father and your mother. ***You shall not murder.*** You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet.

From: JTV
12-Mar-18
While Murder itself is very wrong... killing is acceptable under various circumstances ... there is a difference....

while this answer dosnt mention animals, it dose explain the difference between killing and "Murder" ...

So, is there a difference between murder and killing? First, it is important to note that not all killing is wrong. For instance, the apostle Paul talks about the right of the state to take the lives of evildoers (Romans 13:1-7). This relates to what is commonly referred to as capital punishment. Most countries have consequences for murder. In some cases this requires the life of the perpetrator and a suitable means of putting one to death is chosen and administered (Matthew 5:21; Exodus 21:14). Another instance of acceptable “killing” is that which is done during times of war and at the command of superiors. There were quite a few instances in Scripture where God endorsed and allowed the taking of other lives (1 Samuel 11; Judges 6–7). And finally, although far from acceptable, manslaughter is yet another form of killing someone. This unintentional act apparently happened so often in biblical times that cities of refuge were designated for the manslayer to seek refuge in (Exodus 21:13; Joshua 20). Again, it was never God’s intent to have to use such a drastic measure as taking one’s life to rectify a situation. So, God does make exceptions for the taking of another’s life as long as it lines up with His will. However, premeditated murder of an individual is never God’s will.

btw, if one dosnt kill the "animal" how else are we going to eat the delicious critter ..

From: drycreek
12-Mar-18
Arguing with a fool just leaves me empty. I’d rather argue with a post. At least you’ll get the last word.

From: JTV
12-Mar-18
all she is doing, is proving that liberalism/veganism is a mental disorder .. and being a "vegan" is not a real healthy lifestyle either ...

13-Mar-18
Im interested to see this thing play out if the dialogue is continued with ambush and paul.....

From: Pigsticker
13-Mar-18
Ceart, this is a pretty open forum and we scrutinize most opinions. As far as right and fair I think as a group hunters are nots right and atop the apex of the food chain in that hunters serve far greater biological purposes by conserving, culling, and paying for wildlife. Hunters value wildlife by expending time, energy, and resources. We have chosen to be party of the chain of life and unlike the way we are portrayed as trophy hunters who do not eat the meat that we kill a little reading of threads on here we take great value in the recovery, preparation, enjoyment of the valued organic protein.

You on the other hand chose to veer of the path of life and embrace an abstract philosophical that suited your world view. We as hunters answer an innate bond of predator and prey. Eyes to the front are a dead giveaway to our former self. As far as your identity and body both mean nothing to me and a wasted mind fraught with unsubstantitive ideology that was created off of a false premise fails the the first test of logic. If the foundation of your position is false then everything else is false. You are trying to turn the pyramid upside down and you play it all out the amoebas and micro organisms are greater than the only group that has the capacity to take care of the rest. As a woman you should celebrate when a woman like Michelle steps out of the feminine social confines and excels at a more dominated activity.

I have followed her exploits for quite some time as well women’s basketball. Unfortunately, women would rather go watch male sports and then banter about the inequality of athletics. Recently a woman dominated the Moab 240 beating both male and female entrants and several threads on Bowsite celebrated her dominance. Even if you were aware of this once again you would have decided not to celebrate her accomplishment because she doesn’t share your worldview. Please pick up a bow and go hunt, kill, and eat before you condemn your own kind. Celebrate both life and death!

From: Scoot
13-Mar-18
What happened to the espouser of idiocy? Off doing yoga and eating kale? Not sure I can go on without her short, useless retorts that lack substance and demonstrate flawed logic and character...

From: GotBowAz
13-Mar-18
If all they eat is veggies and such why are most vegans fat? Oops sorry. Why are most vegans lower weight challenged? Being heavy as most of the Vegans I know and yes I KNOW a few sure does not look healthy to me, so what gives?

13-Mar-18
I think all vegans should thank us hunters, and owe us a huge debt of gratitude....if it wasn't for us, our food wood eat all of their food!! :-D

13-Mar-18
It appears as if as soon as the debate becomes civil, rational and to the point of laying out facts from both sides to paint the real world picture, the other side wants to disappear. Disappointing, but predictable…

13-Mar-18
Ambush: I think value is subjective. I value my life, because I'm so intimately connected to it. It is enriched by the people and animals I know, and so I value their lives, too. Ms Newkirk's quote makes more sense in context: "When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy".

Paul@thefort: My position is that the bear was a sentient non-human minding his own business, in his own habitat. Ms Leqve's attack was unprovoked. Humans can be the most compassionate animals on the planet. I wish she'd just taken a photo.

JTV: "The golden rule is the principle of treating others as one would wish to be treated" - Wikipedia

"Do to others what you want them to do to you." -Jesus Christ

"What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others." -Confucius

"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." -Siddhartha Gautama (AKA Buddha)

"One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires." - Jupiter, Teacher of the Gods

Pigsticker: I can tell from your typing that this is a very important issue to you, too. Thank you for your effort. If you would kindly proofread your post for clarity, I will try to address your points one by one.

GotBowAz: Oh yeah? :)

From: Pigsticker
13-Mar-18

Pigsticker's embedded Photo
Pigsticker's embedded Photo
Ceart, I am not writing an essay on a computer. Old eyes in the field on a cell phone while enjoying nature’s beauty.

From: Pigsticker
13-Mar-18

From: Pigsticker
13-Mar-18

Pigsticker's embedded Photo
Pigsticker's embedded Photo

From: Pigsticker
13-Mar-18

Pigsticker's embedded Photo
Pigsticker's embedded Photo

From: JTV
13-Mar-18
JTV: "The golden rule is the principle of treating others as one would wish to be treated" - Wikipedia

"Do to others what you want them to do to you." -Jesus Christ

"What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others." -Confucius

"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." -Siddhartha Gautama (AKA Buddha)

What the hell does this crap have to do with something I want to eat and with animals.... we humans are way above animals..waaay above animals, they were put here for us to use and certain ones for us to eat ... ... the above is just normal animal rights mumbo jumbo bull crap ... fact is if it wasnt for hunters, fishermen and trappers and scientific wildlife management we would not have the abundance of wildlife we do today ... since the turn of the century and the days of Aldo Leuopld and his studies and ideas, all game species have flourish in North America, and so has non-game species ... the threat to wildlife today is not from hunters, trappers and fishermen, but is from loss of habitat and the destruction of the lands on where these animals live ... when I hunt, fish and kill and then take in sustenance from what I have taken, that fulfills the circle of life .... real humans eat meat, this is who we are and where we came from... I am damn proud of that heritage .. and just the fact that your quoting that bimbo Newkirk shows your one of the daft ones and proves the point the liberalism IS a serious mental disorder .... your one sick cookie ... ..

From: Ambush
13-Mar-18
Ok Ceart, got that part. Sorry for the game of “Fifty Questions”, it’s just that vegan and vegetarianism run quite a gamut. I know a few that won’t eat chicken or beef but will eat eggs and dairy because the animals themselves are not killed. Some are “consienceis objectors” because of farming practices but are fine with me killing a deer. Some will eat seafood.

I’m afraid I cannot get behind Ms Newkirk because of her extremist world view. She’d rather all domestic animals be killed rather than be subjected to “slavery”. She’d prefer a dog not have a life to begin with, rather than have a long, very happy life with loving family members. And all to suit her concience. That is self centered!!

Do you believe we should eventually rid the world of all meat eaters?

From: APauls
13-Mar-18
What I don't understand is how a person takes the position that we've evolved as a meat eating animal from animals, so i guess technically we are no different than animals right? OK, but then you say it's ok for other animals to eat other animals, but not the human animal to eat other animals...it all makes my head spin. I guess I'm just not that enlightened. All I know is we are celebrating my birthday supper tonight and I've got a wicked awesome steak thawing in the sink...

From: midwest
13-Mar-18
If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did He make them out of meat?

From: Ambush
13-Mar-18
Forgot to ask; are you anti-hunting? If so, for any reason or for any reason other than food?

13-Mar-18
Ambush: Holy crap, really? That's awful! Where can I learn more about that? I'd like humans to stop eating meat, yes. I think I'd be okay with people consensually hunting each other. Would you?

APauls: Humans no longer have to kill sentient beings in order to survive. We have choice, and that choice makes eating a moral issue. Do we choose the momentary pleasure of the taste of an animal's flesh in our mouth? Or do we choose to allow that animal to experience it's life, instead. Happy birthday.

From: JTV
13-Mar-18
well, I'd like vegans to stop killing all those plants, pulling up those poor things by the roots and grinding up all those poor worms in their gardens when they roto till, and all the bugs killed by that nasty pesticide, and all those raccoons and 'possums and skunks, squirrels killed when the vegans drive to their veggy store ......... sheesh !! ...... btw, Ive got a lobster that is going to dropped in shortly to go along with my venison steak and salad ... MMMMmmmmm .... good stuff

13-Mar-18
JTV: What kind of salad?

From: JTV
13-Mar-18
I ripped up a head of lettuce and some spinach .... ranch dressing ...

From: Ambush
13-Mar-18
Are you okay with the indigenous peoples of North America hunting and fishing for sustenance?

And just to be clear, I do not accept that your “morals or ethics” have any more inherent value or validity than mine or someone else’s. That is a dead end.

13-Mar-18

Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans's embedded Photo
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans's embedded Photo
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans's embedded Photo
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans's embedded Photo
Aim higher, archer.

From: TD
13-Mar-18
Aiming high can ruin the backstraps....... some of the tastiest and most valued meat......

13-Mar-18
Ambush: When the alternative is going hungry? Absolutely. That wasn't the case during Ms Leqve's escapade. I'm enjoying our conversation and I appreciate your interest. But my purpose in visiting this site was to respond to the topic of the Michele Leqve bear attack.

From: JTV
13-Mar-18
I hunt because it is who I am, it is what I do... I am a BOWhunter first and foremost, but I do gun hunt also ... I enjoy the challenges of bowhunting and archery ... I hunt for meat, I hunt for trophies, I hunt to be part of nature ..... same for fishing ... I hunt, therefore, I am ...

From: Bill Obeid
13-Mar-18
Ceart,

I’m getting the impression you would like us archery hunters to eat in a way that you would consider more “ evolved”.

From: Scoot
13-Mar-18
It sure is trendy for these misguided fools to take a negative moral stance on hunting. Fortunately I take a negative moral stance on eating mushrooms and doing yoga. How dare those people!

Humans have done it for a couple hundred thousand years and now because a bunch of liberally minded screwballs think it's envogue to dislike hunting the world is supposed to shift to their worldview? Sick, sick, misguided people...

From: Ambush
13-Mar-18
Very well, let me address that then.

You are ok with the taking of an animal’s life If needed for food. The polar bear in question was eaten by the locals. And further to that that rather large sum of money was left with the locals. Now with that money they can buy much more food than that one polar bear would provide. So in fact more bears will live because that one died.

I’m not sure what career you have or where you live (though you can easily find that out about me) but I can assure you that your life uses resources to carry on.

The Inuit also use resources to sustain their lives. One of the resources they have is animals. And wisely they are gathering the golden eggs rather than killing the goose. Do you have a right to further your life’s ambitions and yet deny others the same using means available to them?

You have a right to an opinion, but your opinion is not right just because it’s yours.

I’m also quite sure that the “sentient” seals, muskox and caribou would welcome the relief. Killing only one polar likely saves many hundreds of other sentient lives. Do those lives have less value?

So mathematically you have no argument. And as I said above, morals and ethics are completely subjective and you have no right to subject me to yours.

I have a historically implied right to kill and eat formed by thousands of years of doing so. You have only a very short term, self realized vision of what is right. That’s called a world view not a world order.

From: Mad Trapper
14-Mar-18
I am curious as to this "live and let live" attitude. I don't believe that it is good for mankind and I don't believe that it is the best thing for the survival of the polar bear species. I understand that polar bears are soft and fuzzy and cute. I also understand that they for whatever reason are the poster animal for "global warming". I also understand that they kill things for a living. I also understand that there are more polar bears now (in most areas) than since they started to monitor polar bear populations many years ago. I also understand that they frequently enter towns, create havoc and at times endanger the townspeople. I also understand that hunting of polar bears brings a lot of needed money into these communities. Now, I do believe that the climate is changing. I am not, however, convinced that these changes are entirely manmade and my intention is not to turn this thread into a discussion on "global warming". I have heard different reports on whether the polar ice is dramatically shrinking. Assuming for argument that it is, then I would think that it would be reasonable to conclude that the polar bear's habitat is also shrinking. If that is the case, then I would suggest to you that you have a couple of choices: 1. Do nothing with respect to the polar bears. Let them deal with the shrinking habitat and the resulting declining food supply and the inevitable over population. Many will suffer and starve. Human confrontation will likely increase as the bears enter the villages in search of food. I suspect that the population would at some point uncontrollably decline fairly rapidly. In my view, not a pretty outcome. 2. Monitor the bear populations and manage the populations in line with the habitat's carrying capacity. If the habitat is shrinking, then the population would be reduced to maintain a sustanable and healthy population of bears commensurate with the size and condition of the habitat. this should lead to less starvations and less human confrontations in the villages. It will also allow these communities to get some needed income from these bears. You decide. I submit to you that nobody on this thread wants to see the polar bear populations decline - least of all the natives who rely on them or the hunters who travel long distances to hunt them. To me the choice is an easy one to make. But that is just me.

14-Mar-18
JTV: It is possible that I am wrong. It is possible that you are wrong. We can talk about that, or not, as you wish. But if you dismiss Christ, Buddha, Moses, Da Vinci and Einstein as Animal Rights Mummerjummers; you diminish your own pool of inspirational thinking to draw from. Also, I think you misunderstand the cogito.

Bill Obeid: That's not why I'm posting here.

Scoot: The pleasure of the kill comes at the expense of a sentient being's life. That provides a moral imperative for protest, which is absent from yoga or bowling. Also, the idea that today's actions are justified by tradition; is flawed. Can you see why? Liberally minded screwballs won't change anything. Change comes from within.

Ambush: The polar bear was not killed for food. The unpredictable knock-on effects of killing an apex predator in such a sparse environment is a risible defense. I imagine there is a diversity of opinion among the Inuit regarding the incident. I imagine there is grief. If they have resorted to selling polar bear kills, then alternative revenue streams are urgently required. If -as you imply and I highly doubt- their culture doesn't value the animal beyond a raw material to be harvested, then their culture needs to grow. You have the legal right to kill (and eat!) within certain parameters. You have no moral right to kill and eat other sentient beings, when there are alternatives. Rights don't come from history, that's why you don't have the right to own a slave, but your ancestors may.

14-Mar-18
Salad is the alternative???? I will continue to keep on keeping on when it comes to filling my freezer, eating the meat i put in there and thanking God for His abundance. Not just for the meat i grill to eat, but for the enjoyment i get in every part of the hunt, before, during and after the killing part.....

From: Scoot
14-Mar-18
Ha- I love it! A well spoke, skilled writer who is fundamentally flawed in logic.

"Change comes from within." Thanks Confucius! Given the fact that our world is governed by laws and screwball liberals like you do all you can to influence the laws and associated beliefs of our society, change can come from our gov't too. Thank the good Lord for all of the reasonable thinking folks here at this site and all across America! We will do all we can to defend against the you and your ridiculous, and in the end sinister, "higher moral ground" stance on these matters.

I'm done responding to this thread. Feeding a troll like her serves no purpose. I do admit I will likely continue to be amused by her short, pointless, worthless replies that offer no substance, but do a fine job of stringing polysyllabic pros together...

From: JTV
14-Mar-18
Our rights come from God and our constitution ... animals are not humans and are lower life forms when compared to humans, animals dont have rights ....

Those people among us who would give lower animals human rights do not do it because they love other animals. They do it because they hate humankind. They hate the fact that their own superior nature as intellectual beings gives them superior challenges which they shrink from by attempting to deny the superiority of their human nature. "Animal rights" is just one more diabolic scheme for promoting government control over human lives by destroying our right to private property. It is the logical tactic of those who hate the individual creative ability and wish it replaced by the anti-human jackboots of collectivism. "Animal rights" activists use the tools of rationality which are uniquely available to the human species in order to deny the distinct nature of their own rational faculties. They raise up animals in an attempt to lower humankind.

I know what I am. I know what animals are. And I will name what "animal rights" activists truly are: the Human Defamation League. And making us as oblivious to cruelty as are all other animals, if not the actual agenda of the Human Defamation League, is nonetheless the unintended consequence of their campaign.

From: smarba
14-Mar-18
Thx for your thoughtful dialog Ambush.

Ceart: so you believe we evolved and just happen to be the highest life form. I believe differently, but I'll play a long.

So a lion or bear has evolved to be the top carnivore and uses all of its abilities to eat. A little salad here and there but arguably a lot of meat.

Why is it different for a human to use all of its abilities to eat. A little salad here and there, but also meat?

Or have we evolved so high that meat should no longer be on the menu? Why? Who says we have evolved to that point? What if I haven't evolved that far and still think meat has its place on the table?

And to echo prior comments, for your salad to get on the table a LOT of worms, insects, mice, rats, birds and other mammals have been killed, whether indirectly (run over or chopped up with farming equipment) or directly (pests eating the plants need to be controlled). How's that any better than me putting a steak on my plate?

From: Medicinemann
14-Mar-18
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans, I interpret "sentient" as being able to perceive or feel things. Definitions may vary. From that personal definition, one could make a case for plants being sentient beings, as they feel the sun, and actually react in such a way as to maximize their photosynthetic response. From that given point of view, the photos of your salads (above) also resulted in the "death" of many sentient beings.....just like when you maim or cripple plants as you mow your lawn. Is this a stretch? Perhaps....perhaps not. The point is, definitions vary....opinions vary....

What I find most interesting, is that you chose to address this issue on a hunting website.....to what end? You can't really believe that your posts will elicit any more change in people's views than if I were go on a HSUS or PETA website extolling the virtues of bowhunting.

From: Bogie
14-Mar-18
Ceart, I have a question for you. If everything has the right to life as you say and believe. Then why do almost all vegans and vegetarians promoting abortions instead of a human being right to life at conception. This is the point where the soul and spirit begin .

From: Ambush
14-Mar-18
Instead of "historical", I should have said according to the "natural order" that you profess to believe.

I live in northern British Columbia and am privileged to personally live and witness many of nature's ways. I can tell that your knowledge comes mainly from reading the facebook posts and blogs of vegans and extremist anti hunters. A little like asking Colonel Saunders to give advice on the purpose of chickens and their well being.

You see, I have hunted with the Inuit people and seen their land and resources. You claim they just need another revenue stream so they don't have to sell bears. What is that revenue stream, who expedites it and who pays for it and does the leg work to accomplish it? What concrete steps are you willing to take to "rescue" them from their ignorance? Platitudes make a very thin broth.

Do you know how wolves kill a moose? It takes hours and sometimes days! When finally exhausted from being chased and having the hide and flesh ripped from it's hinds, they are able to physically over power the bawling animal. Some will sink their fangs into the face and neck of the struggling creature and prevent it from gaining it's feet while the rest start to eat from the hinds. They just eat the moose alive until it is just no longer alive. Do you think that moose is appreciating the "raw beauty of one of nature's top predator"!?! Bears kill the same way. They don't quickly kill large prey, they over power and eat them to death. You know that wolves do kill just for pleasure or in other words for the thrill of the hunt and kill. Why don't your bloggers give cute names to all the moose, elk and deer that are killed by those savage hunters?

Why do so many vegans revere the apex predators? How do you reconcile that to your world view?

In my area bears kill about fifty percent of the moose calves before they are six weeks old. Many times they simply follow a pregnant cow around and harass the cow when she's trying to give birth. She has to face the bear to protect herself. Eventually with the cow constantly spinning the calf emerges and is dangling and being flung about. The bear snatches that new baby from it's mother while she bawls for it's life. No empathy for these sentient beings?

I have a theory about why. So many of your people are the exact opposite of the apex predators in their real life. So they like to identify with them and imagine that that's what they would be in other circumstances. They manifest this behavior the only way they can. By extreme cyber bullying!! Like a pack of jackals.

From: Ambush
14-Mar-18

From: Mad Trapper
14-Mar-18
I can't believe that I broke my first rule. A weak moment I guess. Ceart's reply confirmed why I have the rule. It won't happen again.

From: TD
14-Mar-18
So much they cannot see or rather refuse to see in their Unicorn World. WRT bears..... the #1 natural predator of bears is..... bears. The dominant males kill a great many cubs. That most likely to brutally kill that cute lil' Coke cub is in reality another bear, certainly not a hunter. But somehow they put on their Unicorn goggles and anthropomorphize them to be like humans into cuddly little family units drinking cola or where all the animals gather to hold meetings and they sing and dance to introduce the new Lion King....

These people have so far removed themselves from the natural world and it's realities they can no longer even imagine what it is, much less be an integral part of it, immerse themselves in it.

I think Ambush is really on to something here..... the same people who decry killing to eat will literally celebrate, even fixate to obsession, the apex predators..... wolves, bears, lions etc. who do exactly the same as the hunters they disparage, yet in much more brutal fashion. And do so with no remorse. The moose, elk, deer are then NOT seen as their precious "sentient beings" but now simply become nothing more than a food source for their predator de jour. Somehow they live or see themselves through that predator. Maybe that scratches an itch they have no clue of how or why it itches......

Hunters chose to be participants in the natural world, not outside observers setting themselves apart. That is their right, their instinctual heritage as it has been for many thousands of years, all the years they have walked the earth since creation. Literally ingrained as part of us, as it is a part of all predators. As hunters they know where their food comes from and cherish that. Hint: it does not come from a market, anonymously wrapped in cellophane on a foam tray. We know it, are a part of it as it literally becomes a part of us. We can thank God for our good fortune in providing it for us and our families. As mankind has done since it's very beginning.

From: Ambush
14-Mar-18
Ms Newkirk is the Apex Vegan and ultimate warrior hero(ine, it or whatever) to many of her soldiers.

In Newkirk's perfect world there are no cows, sheep, chickens, goats, pigs, dogs, cats, horses or budgies and so on. Better to not be born than born a "Slave".

In Newkirk's perfect world it is better for a species to not or barely exist than to exist in robust, healthy numbers but be hunted.

In Newkirk's perfect world only people of her beliefs have a right to exist. Zero tolerance for different views, and righteously inflamed by hatred for those that would dare think they could somehow have some tenant of counter truth.

Ceart, I suspect that you are one of those people that constantly declare that humans should stay out of the way of Mother Nature and let her maintain that natural balance. But you are also one of those that applaud loudly the efforts undertaken when someone finds a baby seal on a beach, malnourished and alone and they "rescue" it. Then later they get a few moments of glory as the seal is released back into the wild on the nightly news. Self gratification, "look at what a great caring person I am!", feel good .What happened to letting nature taking it's course. Why did Mother Nature need a helping human hand in this case? I have a particular distaste for the ones that get their "feel good" from "saving" wretchedly maimed and disfigured animals and sentencing them to a life of pain and disability just so they can virtue signal. Why the hell do you have to put a cougar through months of extreme pain and then permanent disability by giving it fake feet, only to live a greatly diminished live!?! It got burnt in a wildfire caused by lightning! Mother Nature at work!! I'll tell you why. So you can parade yourself in front of others and think of yourself as compassionate.

Ceart, you quoted a multitude of deities earlier on. Which one of those bestowed on you the right to trample my rights. Which one "enlightened" your conscious to the point of being morally superior to me? Which one gave you the authority to pronounce absolute right and absolute wrong?

The difference between me and Ms Newkirk (and by extension, you) is that I will allow you to be vegan, and not kill animals and live your life how you feel best gives you happiness. Whereas you and Ms Newkirk will not accord me the same respect. You are consumed by forcing your morality onto me on the mere whim that "you could be right".

As for a woman killing a polar bear in the Arctic. I read some of the ridiculously vitriolic commentaries by "your" people. ".... chased by dogs until it was too exhausted to fight for it's life...". A few things. That same bear will go into a village or camp and catch, kill and eat dogs. He's thinking the same when he lets the dogs catch up to him. These dogs are more wolf than domestic dog. They thrill at the chase and know that if the bear is killed, they will eat all the fat and meat they want. It's instinctual and something you admire in other apex predators. And the reason the bears and dogs (mostly wolf) react the way they do is because this same scene plays out a multitude of times in the wild throughout their lives without the presence man.

I'll leave you with one more thought. The Inuit people had a harsh life and life had little time left for idolizing or romanticizing animals. They needed them for food. Period. One of the ways they killed polar bears was to put sharpened bones into balls of frozen fat and put them out in a bears path. The bear would eagerly swallow the fat balls whole. The fat melted in the bear's stomach and the bone daggers would perforate its guts. Now it was a matter of trailing the bear, for days, as it sickened and died a slow painful death. Not exactly like a day working at Starbucks for the Inuit hunter, but hey, you take what you get to earn a living.

I think Ms Leqve's bear got a deal on his death.

14-Mar-18
I object to your statement that we have a choice. To make the choice of veganism goes against who we truly are. I don't have a choice in who I am. I am the sum of my DNA and my DNA is that of a predator.

And you are off in your opinion of the Inuit as well. They are hunters though-and-through. I know, because I live among them. A common shirt worn up here goes like this: "Vegetarian" Old Inuit word for "Bad Hunter." They scoff at the neo-urban fools who think themselves righteous for abandoning who they really are. They all think it ridiculous.

They relish the hunting of polar bears and no polar bear that is killed by white or Inuit hunter goes uneaten. You're assuming. That's a fantastic way to be wrong.

From: CCRider
14-Mar-18
Most Trannies are Vegans. Just sayin.

From: Rock
14-Mar-18
"The golden rule is the principle of treating others as one would wish to be treated" - Wikipedia - Well this is exactly what Michelle did she killed the Bear and the natives eat it, before it could kill and eat her.

"Do to others what you want them to do to you." -Jesus Christ - Also stated the Mankind has dominion over the animals. They were put here to feed us.

From: Ambush
14-Mar-18
And Vaginaterians can always be found somewhere right in the middle.

From: TD
14-Mar-18
Gosh...... good thing she didn't go out and kill a whale...... you know, like the Inuits.....

14-Mar-18

Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans's embedded Photo
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans's embedded Photo
Mad Trapper: Excellent points, well argued. I don't know what the solution to climate change is. But it's striking that the people who spend years learning how to kill with a bow are the very same people who see hunting as the solution. Too many bears? Shoot them! Too few bears? Shoot them! Economic challenges? Propose a bear-shooting-based-solution. Off the top of my head, I'd say that if overpopulation of bears really is the greatest challenge the Arctic faces (And I doubt it), and if it is determined by impartial experts that some kind of cull is absolutely necessary, then (reversible) sterilization of the minimum amount of the weakest bears would be a more reasonable approach. I'm sure actual scientists have much better ideas. My point is, hammer? nails! I submit to you that everyone on this thread wants every wilderness to be positively heaving with noble beasts. Almost everyone here would rather endure serious cognitive dissonance than connect the killing of animals with plummeting animal populations.

Scoot: Challenges like climate change, micro-plastics, ocean acidification etc will require new laws. You're right, of course. Change comes from the Government. What I meant was I (as a screwball "liberal") haven't taken it upon myself to change your mind regarding veganism. I'm here because I had something to say about the terrible thing Ms Leqve did. Thanks for listening.

JTV: Your rights don't come from your constitution, that document merely articulates them. Also, there is no God.

smarba: It's different for humans because we have the choice. Having the choice makes what we eat a moral issue. We can cause unnecessary suffering, or we can choose not to. Sharks and bears don't have that choice. That's the difference. If you're talking about biological evolution, I assure you- you are almost certainly capable of thriving on a well planned plant based diet. Your intestines are much longer than an obligate carnivore of your size, and are more suited to plant matter than meat. Your jaws have powerful molars and work with the grinding side to side motion typical of plant eating mammals. Your eyes are up front like a predator it's true: but so are gorilla eyes. That probably helped our ancestors triangulate on fruit and safe branches to grab. (Ever get that dream where you're falling and suddenly snap awake? That may also be an evolved mechanism that stopped our tree swinging ancestors from meeting a sticky end!). So you can almost certainly do it, if you want to, biologically speaking. But if you mean some kind of personal moral evolution, I really can't say. All I can say is for me it's been a gradual process - like, over a decade. Other people seem to just decide and 'dats dat'. Finally, it's true that many animals are killed in the harvesting of grains/vegetables. And I agree that pesticide misuse is an urgent problem. But a plant based diet is still more compassionate and sustainable than any other. Veganism is about excluding, animal cruelty as far as possible and practical.

Medicinemann: Regarding your first point- I hope you find the attached illustration illuminating. Regarding your second point- funny story. I was on facebook, and I saw that photo of Ms Leqve posing with the bear. I knew immediately it was fake. It had to be. First of all, it just looked super fake. Like, not even photoshopped- more like she'd been cut out of an awkward family photo and glued into a collage with a gigantic sleeping bear. Even the bear looked fake. Besides, who in their right mind would smile and pose after doing something like that? So I googled Ms Leqve. And holy mother of god, she really did it, didn't she. And among the petitions and outpouring of anger and confusion - I found this forum, where other human beings were professing their support and admiration. So, here we are.

14-Mar-18

14-Mar-18
What a clown. Funny how you pretend to be full of compassion and care for life, and yet you say the one with more compassion and love than any other thing in existence doesnt exist. The road ur headin down is waaaaaay to hot for polar bears, bruh......

From: Bowbender
14-Mar-18
Question. Do all sentient beings have a right to life? It's really a simple yes or no question.

14-Mar-18
You again claim we have a choice, but didn't address my point that I disagree.

You've made a choice, albeit a poor one for your health because we evolved as omnivores and part-time predators, not as vegans.

And another question: What makes your opinion as to what anyone should do worth a damn? Just because some people, after 300,000 years of evolution, decided a couple decades ago that we should no longer eat meat, how does your opinion or your (what I would consider phony) moral crisis have any merit? I consider your moral crisis to be ridiculous. Why is your opinion any more valid than any hunter's? You're the one trying to change the nature of a specie after 300K years. The burden of proof is on you. We see your kind as just another unfortunate side effect of urbanization - the ultimate scourge of the earth.

Sorry, I don't have a choice. I was born a predator and I will always be one. You cannot change DNA in 50 years.

From: Ambush
14-Mar-18
Quote Ceart: " Almost everyone here would rather endure serious cognitive dissonance than connect the killing of animals with plummeting animal populations."

That statement proves beyond a doubt that you may be well spoken and even educated but you have no real knowledge regarding wildlife populations and drivers. You have no intention of becoming better informed, you wish only to moralize and chastise. You talk down from an imagined height. You can no more definitively say there is no God than I can say there is, yet somehow you believe your position unassailable.

You can go back to your clannish cyber wards where you can lick, pet, caudal, encourage and congratulate one another on your much higher consciousnesses. We need neither your approval nor your condescending silliness and frankly we are just to well grounded and intelligent to even entertain any such nonsense.

From: JTV
14-Mar-18

JTV's embedded Photo
JTV's embedded Photo
"JTV: Your rights don't come from your constitution, that document merely articulates them. Also, there is no God."

THERE IT IS !! .....For the idiocy of animal rights to succeed, those who profess it must first do away with any idea there is a God and defeat Judaeo Christian religion ... but since you believe in Atheism .... this one is for you ..

From: JTV
14-Mar-18
being vegan is certainly unhealthy ... I have been a distance runner now for 41 years, I eat healthy, but I love my Punkin' pies at holiday time.... my main food has been and always will be meat, and I prefer the wild self caught/killed kind

here is some tidbits about the unhealthy pure vegan lifestyle ..

A vegan diet never sustained any traditional culture Dr. Weston Price, a dentist with a passion for nutrition, traveled the globe to discover the secrets of healthy, happy people. He recorded his findings in the 30’s in the landmark book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. From the Inuit in Alaska to the Maori in New Zealand, Dr. Price revealed that the diets traditional to each culture, although dependent on geography, followed a strict set of dietary laws.

Perhaps the most striking commonality is an unerring reverence for animal foods. No traditional culture subsisted on a vegan diet, a fact that Dr. Price found particularly interesting.

Some cultures, such as the Masai tribe in Africa, consumed almost exclusively animal products. The Masai ate meat, milk and blood from their cattle, experiencing profound health and incredible bone structure (which is an indicator of generational health). Cultures – such as the Inuit – that didn’t practice animal husbandry caught wild meat or fish. Groups who had the least access to animal products would forage for grubs and bugs.

The China Study (which is a book title, not a study) has been used to promote the idea that primarily vegan cultures experience better health than omnivorous cultures. T. Campbell, the author, notoriously cherry-picked data to arrive at a specific conclusion. Denise Minger, author of Death by Food Pyramid, published a scathing critique of Cambell’s work in her article, The China Study: Fact or Fiction.

Vegan diets do not provide fat-soluble vitamins A and D Contrary to popular belief, you can’t get vitamin A from carrots. Vegetables provide carotene, a precursor to vitamin A, while animal sources such as liver and pastured egg yolks provide true vitamin A. Many people believe that carotene can be converted into vitamin A, but this conversion is usually insignificant. First, it takes a huge amount of carotene to convert to a moderate amount of vitamin A. Second, when there is poor thyroid function, impaired digestion or a a lack of healthy fats in the diet, this conversion won’t happen.

In the same way, useable vitamin D (natural vitamin D3) is only found in animal products such as pastured egg yolks, cod liver oil and dairy products from grass-grazing animals. Traditionally, ancient cultures that lived in darker environments relied heavily on these vitamin-D rich foods (for example, Scandinavians ate copious amounts of salmon and grassfed butter). The myth that we can obtain vitamin D from mushrooms is false… mushrooms contain vitamin D2, which is extremely poorly absorbed.

Vitamin A and Vitamin D are particularly essential for immune regulation, digestion, fertility and hormone balance.

Vegan diets often rely heavily on soy Soy, soy, the magical fruit. The more you eat, the more… your hormones go berserk!

10 years ago, a vegan diet equated to vegetables interspersed with soy milk, soy cheese, soy bacon, soy protein, soy cereal, tofu, and tempeh. Now, the health problems with chronic soy consumption are becoming more mainstream anedemame 2d many vegans have reduced their soy consumption. Even so, a vegan diet often relies on a moderate amount of soy products – especially soy protein powders and soy protein bars.

The primary concern with consuming soy in any form is the phytoestrogen content. Phytoestrogens can mimic estrogen in the body, causing a chain reaction of hormone imbalances. Although studies showing the hormonal effects of consuming soy are controversial, I believe the research indicates that we should play it safe rather than sorry. For example, one study showed that infants consuming soy formula had concentrations of blood estrogen levels 13,000 to 22,000 times higher than normal estrogen levels! ....as a male chauvinist skirt chasing pig, I dont want to grow titties ...

egan diets do not provide vitamin K2 Vitamin K2 is the shuttle that transports calcium into your bones. You can eat as much calcium as you want but it won’t strengthen your bones unless it is accompanied by vitamin K2. This is one reason why calcium supplementation has beencheese slice shown to increase the risk of plaque formation – the body can’t use the calcium for building bones so it stores it in the arteries.

Unlike vitamin K1, plants do not provide vitamin K2. (The one and only exception to this rule is natto, a fermented soybean product. One problem, however, is that natto is, for the majority of humans and animals, repulsive to eat). Like other fat-soluble vitamins, Vitamin K2 is found fatty sources – Mother Nature packages the vitamin with the cofactors required to absorb it. You’ll get vitamin K2 in pastured egg yolks, milk and cheese from grass fed animals, liver, beef, Venison, Elk, Moose and other wild game and red meat...

Vegan isn’t the answer to autoimmune disease Autoimmunity is a 21st century epidemic, with 50 million people suffering with an autoimmune disease in America (according to AARDA) But did you know that you can address autoimmunity with diet? I’m living proof that it works! Three years ago, my ulcerative colitis was so advanced that my doctors wanted to remove my colon. Instead, I decided to do whatever it took to heal myself naturally. Now, I’m completely symptom free (and colon intact!) thanks to my dietary changes.

All disease begins in the gut, and all disease must be addressed by improving gut health. In the case of autoimmunity, the intestines are permeable to bacterial toxins and undigested proteins (leaky gut), which cause an problematic immune response.

To heal leaky gut, specific foods must be removed from the diet and nutrient-dense foods should be emphasized. The two leaders in leaky gut dietary treatment – Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride and Sarah Ballantyne – both agree that animal products are a nonnegotiable, essential part of healing leaky gut to address autoimmunity.

one of my favorites ... You must take life to have life Many people choose veganism because they think it cruel to take a life, but something dies no matter what you eat. For example, field mice were demolished in order to grow the corn for a box of vegan cereal.

Further, plants are living beings, capable of communicating with each other and the world around them. Controversial but intriguing research, discussed in this documentary, indicates that plants can even sense and respond to human emotions!

Nutritional Therapist Liz Wolf sums it up perfectly in her book Eat the Yolks:

If we truly believe that no living thing should have to die for our dinner, we shouldn’t eat at all. If we truly believe that all life deserves equal respect, why not equalize ourselves by embracing the elegant fact that we are all, as Nelson writes, “driven by the same hungers that motivate any other creature— the squirrel in the forest, the vole in the meadow, the bear on the mountainside, the deer in the valley”?

Vegan diets are deficient in vitamin B12 and iron Like vitamin A, D and K2, the readily-absorbed form of vitamin B12 and iron is found only in animal sources (are you seeing a pattern here?). Testing with the most up-to-date methods show that 83% of vegans are B12 deficient, compared to 5% of omnivores.

What about spirulina and brewer’s yeast as a source of B12? Chris Kresser has an excellent post on vegan diets and vitamin deficiencies in which he addresses this question:

A common myth amongst vegetarians and vegans is that it’s possible to get B12 from plant sources like seaweed, fermented soy, spirulina and brewers yeast. But plant foods said to contain B12 actually contain B12 analogs called cobamides that block the intake of, and increase the need for, true B12. (4)

Chris also discusses iron in his post. While plants such as lentils and leafy greens do provide some iron, it is not as well-absorbed as animal-based iron. He explains,

Vegetarians and vegans have lower iron stores than omnivores, and […] vegetarian diets have been shown to reduce non-heme iron absorption by 70% and total iron absorption by 85%. (6, 7)

lastly, another favorite.... . Animal fats offer unique nutrients Have you heard that flax seeds, walnuts, hemp seeds and chia seeds are all excellent sources of omega-3? That may be true, but these plant sources provide a form of omega-3 that is not well absorbed by the body.

The omega-3 in plant sources, such as flaxseed and walnuts, is ALA. ALA must be converted to EPA or DHA in the body to be useable. Unfortunately, the conversion between ALA and EPA/ DHA is extremely low. One study showed that women convert about 21% of ALA to EPA and 9% to DHA. The conversion rates for men are even lower.

Further, as Chris Kresser points out in his article on vegan nutrient deficiencies, “the conversion of ALA to DHA depends on zinc, iron and pyridoxine—nutrients which vegetarians and vegans are less likely than omnivores to get enough of.”

Fats from sustainably-raised animals provide unique health benefits not found in plant sources:

EPA and DHA, the active forms of omega-3 vital for cognitive function, are found only in animal sources such as fatty fish. Fat soluble vitamins A, D and K2 are found in fatty animal products (discussed above). Cholesterol, a vital ingredient for healthy hormones, can be dietarily obtained only through animal sources. Yes, the body can produce cholesterol, but dietary cholesterol is a key part of wellness including memory, liver health, and digestion. But don’t cholesterol-rich saturated fats cause heart disease? Nope! Saturated fats were wrongly blamed for heart disease with the help of poor research and sleazy food politics. Now, even mainstream sources are acknowledging the science. For example, the 2014 June cover of Time Magazine announced, “Eat butter. Scientists labeled fat the enemy. Why they were wrong.”

14-Mar-18
Prob is, JTV, only written material that supports the backwards thinking agenda here is considered true. The study/info u posted doesnt support the agenda. So...doesnt count. Its fingers are in its ears and it cant hear you.... LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA

From: elk yinzer
14-Mar-18
C.A.N.V you outghta try out the Community forum. 'Tis a really delightful welcoming place with a lot of deep thinkers. A safe space if you will. You would really fit in over there.

From: JTV
15-Mar-18
lol .... "Welcome to the jungle" ...

From: TD
15-Mar-18
You know.... tofu does kind of LOOK like whale blubber......

15-Mar-18

IdyllwildArcher's embedded Photo
IdyllwildArcher's embedded Photo
My kids love whale blubber. Muktuk is delicious.

From: David A.
15-Mar-18
Ceart, if you have bandwidth, to understand the complicated and important subject of hunting you might try some of Paul Shepards books, such as: https://tinyurl.com/yd33qdr2 These are some of the most profound books ever writtern on hunting and nature... I don't recommend them to just everyone...even the titles are compelling, however. Nature and Madness, The Only World We've Got, The Tender Carnivore and the Sared Game, Man in the Landscape, to mention a few. Are they prohunting? The are pro Nature...and Nature has always approved of hunting and predation.

From: David A.
15-Mar-18
Let me add, your veggies look scrumptous. Love my veggies! But here is the big problem: Agriculture, at least many types (the vast majority) of commercial large scale agriculture has slowly and now rapidly been destroying the world: siltation of major rivers and seas around the world, enormous magnitutes of soil erosion, pesticide and insecticide use to the extent that all animals, even polar bears, carry their residues, enormous habitat loss killing untold billions upon billions of all manner of wildlife, untold petroleum costs thereby adding to pollution of soil, water, and air, loss of habitat and world carbon sinks, acidification of the oceans...I could go on and on but would be remiss not to mention it is largely the invention of agriculture that allowed for the world population to take off like a rocketship to where now we are on the verge of the next great extinction event...

Mind you, I'm not dissing farmers per se, especially those who practice wise farming practices. And we all have to eat...grains and other farmed products are now necessary for you life and mine. Nevertheless, it is agriculture not it's virtual opposite (hunting) that has brought the world to it's current environmental and population dilemma. Indeed, it is hunting that has been the only sustainable long term mode of human existance (over several hundred thousand years). I am sure you would wish to exterminate virtually all forms of hunting, but therein lies the complete irony when it's virtual complete opposite is what is killing our world and the world of Nature.

From: JB
15-Mar-18
First I have to say that I am in awe of many of the responses from fellow Bowsiters. WOW! You guys are amazing!!

2nd - as is the usual with these types of discussions, the anti side will switch their justifications to meet their needs. How can you say there is no God, but quote Jesus Christ? You might want to drop that quote from your arsenal.

15-Mar-18
Ceart u say your ancestor swung in trees, well mine sure didn’t we come from Adam And Eve. If u need a history lesson give me your address I will send u a Bible trust me u will learn something. Blessings

From: JTV
15-Mar-18
He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the LORD."

Psalm 91:3 Verse Concepts For it is He who delivers you from the snare of the trapper And from the deadly pestilence.

Genesis 25:27 Verse Concepts When the boys grew up, Esau became a skillful hunter, a man of the field, but Jacob was a peaceful man, living in tents.

Genesis 27:3 Verse Concepts "Now then, please take your gear, your quiver and your bow, and go out to the field and hunt game for me;

Theasaurus: Hunting Craft (29 instances) Equipment (61 instances) Hunters (1 instance) Hunting (13 instances) Occupations (3 instances) Stalking (1 instance) Trapping (5 instances) More Verses on Hunting Genesis 49:9 Verse Concepts "Judah is a lion's whelp; From the prey, my son, you have gone up He couches, he lies down as a lion, And as a lion, who dares rouse him up?

Leviticus 17:13 Verse Concepts "So when any man from the sons of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, in hunting catches a beast or a bird which may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth.

1 Samuel 24:11 Verse Concepts "Now, my father, see! Indeed, see the edge of your robe in my hand! For in that I cut off the edge of your robe and did not kill you, know and perceive that there is no evil or rebellion in my hands, and I have not sinned against you, though you are lying in wait for my life to take it.

Psalm 124:7 Verse Concepts Our soul has escaped as a bird out of the snare of the trapper; The snare is broken and we have escaped.

Job 38:39 Verse Concepts "Can you hunt the prey for the lion, Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,

Numbers 23:24 Verse Concepts "Behold, a people rises like a lioness, And as a lion it lifts itself; It will not lie down until it devours the prey, And drinks the blood of the slain."

Job 4:11 Verse Concepts "The lion perishes for lack of prey, And the whelps of the lioness are scattered.

Psalm 17:12 Verse Concepts He is like a lion that is eager to tear, And as a young lion lurking in hiding places.

Psalm 22:13 Verse Concepts They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion.

Psalm 104:21 Verse Concepts The young lions roar after their prey And seek their food from God.

Isaiah 5:29 Its roaring is like a lioness, and it roars like young lions; It growls as it seizes the prey And carries it off with no one to deliver it.

Ezekiel 19:6 Verse Concepts 'And he walked about among the lions; He became a young lion, He learned to tear his prey; He devoured men.

Ezekiel 22:25 Verse Concepts "There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey They have devoured lives; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in the midst of her.

Amos 3:4 Does a lion roar in the forest when he has no prey? Does a young lion growl from his den unless he has captured something?

Nahum 2:12 Verse Concepts The lion tore enough for his cubs, Killed enough for his lionesses, And filled his lairs with prey And his dens with torn flesh.

Job 9:26 Verse Concepts "They slip by like reed boats, Like an eagle that swoops on its prey.

Job 39:27-30 "Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up And makes his nest on high?

Amos 9:3 Verse Concepts "Though they hide on the summit of Carmel, I will search them out and take them from there; And though they conceal themselves from My sight on the floor of the sea, From there I will command the serpent and it will bite them.

Job 19:22 "Why do you persecute me as God does, And are not satisfied with my flesh?

Jeremiah 16:16 Verse Concepts "Behold, I am going to send for many fishermen," declares the LORD, "and they will fish for them; and afterwards I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them from every mountain and every hill and from the clefts of the rocks.

Ezekiel 12:13 Verse Concepts "I will also spread My net over him, and he will be caught in My snare And I will bring him to Babylon in the land of the Chaldeans; yet he will not see it, though he will die there.

Psalm 10:2 Verse Concepts In pride the wicked hotly pursue the afflicted; Let them be caught in the plots which they have devised.

Jeremiah 5:26 Verse Concepts 'For wicked men are found among My people, They watch like fowlers lying in wait; They set a trap, They catch men.

Genesis 31:36 Verse Concepts Then Jacob became angry and contended with Laban; and Jacob said to Laban, "What is my transgression? What is my sin that you have hotly pursued me?

1 Samuel 23:23 Verse Concepts "So look, and learn about all the hiding places where he hides himself and return to me with certainty, and I will go with you; and if he is in the land, I will search him out among all the thousands of Judah."

1 Samuel 26:20 Verse Concepts "Now then, do not let my blood fall to the ground away from the presence of the LORD; for the king of Israel has come out to search for a single flea, just as one hunts a partridge in the mountains."

Job 18:8-10 "For he is thrown into the net by his own feet, And he steps on the webbing.

Psalm 119:110 Verse Concepts The wicked have laid a snare for me, Yet I have not gone astray from Your precepts.

Psalm 140:5 Verse Concepts The proud have hidden a trap for me, and cords; They have spread a net by the wayside; They have set snares for me. Selah.

Psalm 141:9 Verse Concepts Keep me from the jaws of the trap which they have set for me, And from the snares of those who do iniquity.

Proverbs 6:5 Verse Concepts Deliver yourself like a gazelle from the hunter's hand And like a bird from the hand of the fowler.

Isaiah 10:2 Verse Concepts So as to deprive the needy of justice And rob the poor of My people of their rights, So that widows may be their spoil And that they may plunder the orphans.

Isaiah 13:14 Verse Concepts And it will be that like a hunted gazelle, Or like sheep with none to gather them, They will each turn to his own people, And each one flee to his own land.

Isaiah 59:15 Verse Concepts Yes, truth is lacking; And he who turns aside from evil makes himself a prey Now the LORD saw, And it was displeasing in His sight that there was no justice.

Lamentations 3:52 Verse Concepts My enemies without cause Hunted me down like a bird;

Micah 7:2 Verse Concepts The godly person has perished from the land, And there is no upright person among men All of them lie in wait for bloodshed; Each of them hunts the other with a net.

Genesis 21:20 Verse Concepts God was with the lad, and he grew; and he lived in the wilderness and became an archer.

Proverbs 12:27 Verse Concepts A lazy man does not roast his prey, But the precious possession of a man is diligence.

15-Mar-18
Bowbender: Not to my knowledge, no. Last year, 56 billion land animals were harvested for meat; and 145 million tonnes of animals from the oceans. If they have the right to life, that right is being ignored.

IdyllwildArcher: Societies all over the world have lived without meat since ancient times. In modern times, it's really quite easy to live a long healthy life on a plant based diet. That's what's up. I don't mean to ignore your issue regarding 'choice', I just don't know what to tell you. If you're right, then your freedom is an illusion, and you exist in an entirely predetermined universe. I'm not your friend, but talk to one.

Ambush: Your critique of my athiesm is valid, but does not rebut the quoted assertion. Farewell.

David A.: Thanks for the book recommendations, I'll take a look. My trudy foodie has found a new level since we went vegan, it's been amazing. But those salads aren't our creations - those were images from https://minimalistbaker.com and http://www.onegreenplanet.org. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make though, regarding agricultre. Yes, it is the foundation of civilization. Yes, it is the reason for things being the way they are, good and bad. And yes, there are serious urgent problems with our agriculture today. Veganism is part of the solution. Big game hunting is not.

JB: How can I...?

"These are dark and desperate times. I know that some of you are afraid. It's alright. It's perfectly natural. But I want you to know that I am not. I am not afraid to die this day because what we do here is necessary. It may seem impossible, our enemies may appear to be endless, but that doesn't matter. Because there is no one else. Look at me. I believe in an idea, an idea that a single individual who has the right heart and the right mind that is consumed with a single purpose, that one man can win a war. Give that one man a group of soldiers with the same conviction, and you can change the world" - Captain America

From: Ambush
15-Mar-18
A final question Ceart.

Why do you find it necessary to force your world view onto others if you truly are able to agree that you could be wrong? What about free will and choice. Cyber bullying companies, for example.

From: JTV
15-Mar-18
Damn, what a nut job/he/she/it is ... I dont abide any animal rights bullcrap, let a lone a vegan at that ... I'll continue with my distance running, BOWhunting and eating the tasty critters, it does give the side salad something to look at .. ;0)....

15-Mar-18
The hunter forces his will upon the prey.

From: Ambush
15-Mar-18
Thanks for that. Just confirming that you sincerely believe that you are morally and intellectually far superior to anyone that does not subscribe to your religion. You’d like to think your an atheist and self admitting that your are not would trouble your weak spirit. But there is often pain on the path to peace.

I won’t trouble you anymore, but will only speak of you in the third person to others. Then youll be relieved of the duty of any soul searching that your captive mind is still capable of.

You are what you eat has never rang so true!!

From: Bowbender
15-Mar-18
"Bowbender: Not to my knowledge, no. Last year, 56 billion land animals were harvested for meat; and 145 million tonnes of animals from the oceans. If they have the right to life, that right is being ignored."

You missed one. Not sure if it was intentional or not. My guess is yes, it was intentional.

"Veganism is part of the solution. Big game hunting is not."

Opinion, not fact. Gotta love how libs are all about choice.... Their choice.

From: JTV
15-Mar-18
"The hunter forces his will upon the prey." ... damn right we do, this is why humans are superior to animals and why predatory species eat the lesser ones ..

15-Mar-18
Just as we were told to do. By the Creator. We dont just kill, we help the species thrive thru conservation practices which hunter dollars go to fund.....

Bottom line, you think ur right and we are wrong. Just run on along amd keep thinkin that. We will continue as we've been commissioned to do....

From: Ambush
15-Mar-18
History has proved and science has confirmed that the vegan diet makes both mind and body weak. Any society that had been reduced to a diet that did not include animals, soon succumbed to desease and or conquest by a stronger society. An omnivorous society.

The best that people like Ceart can hope for is that there is a God and he is merciful beyond belief.

15-Mar-18
Ambush, He is merciful beyond belief. And last night, before i went to sleep, as i prayed i prayed for Ceart and others like him/her. I didnt pray that they change their minds on hunting or even just come to agree to disagree vs tell us we are wrong. I prayed that they find the Lord before its too late. That even if they dont do it on their own, before they draw their last breath they have the time to finally confess Jesus is Lord. I will do the same tonight.

From: Ambush
15-Mar-18
That is something. The cruel meat eater is hoping for the best for The Vegan, while The Vegan is back with her cadre where they are screaming out threats of death and horrific violence against the meat eaters and their children.

15-Mar-18
Not a meat eater. A Christian....that eats meat. And lots of it... ;^)

From: David A.
15-Mar-18
Ceart writes, " I'm not sure what point you are trying to make though, regarding agricultre. Yes, it is the foundation of civilization. Yes, it is the reason for things being the way they are, good and bad. And yes, there are serious urgent problems with our agriculture today. Veganism is part of the solution. Big game hunting is not."

You're not sure what point I'm trying to make? Then read my post again, all the serious ecological problems of the world today stem from agriculture, not big game hunting. In fact, a very strong case could be made big game hunting is a conservative plus for wildlife, but I'm sure you know the arguments. I challenge whether you really know the arguments agriculture is destroying the planet, at the tune of nearly 200,000 acres of rainfourest daily, much of which is from slash and burn agriculture, but the total daily lost to agricultural clearing may be a million acres or more. DAILY. And I listed other ways agriculture is poisoning the planet and it's inhabitants including polar bears whose tissues contain farm by product residues such as pesticides (but many more) which threaten the bear's endocrine and reproductive system. Do a Google search, "Polar bears + contaminated tissues"...

And while agriculture is an important part of the foundation of our civilization, it is hunting which made us human. Which begs, the question, are we fully human if we don't hunt? Mind you, I love veggies but in the year 2555 (if man is still alive) and we are munching on algae biscuits, where will the animals be, the great herds, the seemingly infinite ocean life, even the wild birds? Mostly gone. And few will know really why.

From: David A.
15-Mar-18
And btw, Ceart, not all hunters are Bible thumpers and/or antievolutionists. The evidence on evolution is massive and incontrovertable. Evolution is the cornerstone of biology. With regard to the topic, it is the evolution of prey and predator that has made life what it is today. They are not enemies, but long time lovers, each creating the other. As I said, Nature has always agreed with predation and hunting. And Nature's greatest invention was death, w/o which life itself would be impossible. Antihunters almost invariably view animals and wildlife as a collection of pieces like a glass menagerie, where the loss of one individual is a given negative. But that is not how Nature works. Life is a process and flows like a river. Let the river flow...and this takes preservation of habitat as a given. If you care about wildlife and wild places, this should be your biggest concern. We should all be concerned and I believe hunters are more than anyone. Wild habitat slips away at perhaps a million acres a day...this obviously cannot continue...

From: Medicinemann
16-Mar-18
Ceart, Your comparison of a cow and a cucumber illustrates that you are in quite a pickle. I recall providing an interpretation of the word sentient that may differ from yours. It did not involve pain receptors....or a crash course in vertebrate versus plant physiology. I simply mentioned "sentient"in a different context....noting that it was your choice of words, not mine. Perhaps you need to find a different tack to illustrate your point.....after all, all non-GMO cucumbers have seeds, so you are eating embryos....Central nervous system notwithstanding.....perhaps a more specific word than sentient would be in order?

Regarding your heartfelt concern for plummenting animal populations, I am sure that your vegan brothers and sisters would gladly accept your charitable contributions to secure future animal habitat.......but in case no such organization exists, there is always the National Wild Turkey Federation (NWTF), the Wild Sheep Foundation (WSF), or Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF)......all of which DO purchase habitat for animals. You might want to research how many dollars are spent by HSUS (especially Wayne Pacelle....before he had to step down), PETA, and VeganStreet for conservation of animal habitat......and compare that with the monies donated by various hunting organizations. Another interesting comparison might include the estimated numbers of wild turkeys at the beginning of the 20th century, versus the number at the beginning of the 21st century....or whitetail deer populations. I think you will find that plummeting is not an accurate term.

Come to think of it....I cannot find a single, NON-hunting organization (edit : one that does not allow or recognize hunting as a valid conservation tool), that cares enough about animal habitat, to design, fund, and implement a conservation model that DOES secure future habitat for wild game. I genuinely hope that you CAN name one.....I would be most interested to hear of them, their 501(c)3 status, and the science on which their habitat model is based.

From: David A.
16-Mar-18
The Nature Conservancy is one and the largest. I believe the Rocky Mt. Elk Foundation is the second largest. Pretty impressive, in that it's 99% (or whatever) are elk hunters!...Hunters and fishermen/women are the true conservationists (but not the only ones). Most people don't know anything about hunting and wlldlife/habitat conservation. Not a clue.

From: Medicinemann
16-Mar-18
David A, The Nature Conservancy site in Sherman, NY allows hunting (I don't know if its other sites do....). I was hoping for a non-hunting organization (see edit above).....a cool site to check out, nonetheless.

From: Bowbender
16-Mar-18
MM,

I would consider the Conservancy Group to be a non-hunting organization. Here in Lancaster PA, the Lancaster Conservancy group has acquired about 1,000 acres, most of which is open to bowhunting. They just acquired another 500 acres that adjoins the land I currently hunt. While many of their members lean left of center, they have always supported hunting on most of their properties. I plan on helping with work being done on the new 500 acres.

But to your point, groups like HSUS, World Wildlife Fund, etc, do absolutely ZERO for habitat. Their $$ are tied up in fund raising and administrative costs.

From: Boreal
16-Mar-18
" Societies all over the world have lived without meat since ancient times."

Which ones?

From: Bowbender
16-Mar-18
Which ones? The ones that are extinct.

From: Ambush
16-Mar-18
Ceart claimed that her "partner' has reached a "new level" since going vegan.

Who does "Next Level Thinking" remind you of?!!?

From: Sling Shot
16-Mar-18
Michelle is a class act. Met her on a flight, commented on her elk ivory ring, she even sent me her video! I have a wife and 3 daughters. Wife and 1 daughter hunt. We have been to Africa a couple times etc, it is upsetting to see how careful they have to be with some of the pictures of the great memories we have created. They have gotten very good at being polite and explaining there position. We recently offered Michelle Bachman a raffle hunt for her and 3 women at an SCI banquet to hunt in Africa included several animals etc. She said she cant go back to Africa because of all the push back from anti hunters and the level of attack she received last time she went. It's a shame, these are true role models for our girls. Michelle Bachman probably does more for encouraging kids to hunt then anyone in the industry. It is seriously inspirational to see her at a hunting show and see how she goes out of her way to talk to kids and give autographs etc. Hats off to you ladies, keep fighting the fight!

From: Medicinemann
16-Mar-18
Bowbender, I have edited my definition of a non-hunting organization to better illustrate my point....which you also refer to..... Glad to hear that you are contributing your time to the conservancy.

From: Rock
16-Mar-18
Ambush, "Who does "Next Level Thinking" remind you of?!!?" LETS NOT GO THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From: JTV
16-Mar-18
The Nature Conservancy has thousands of acres here in Indiana, I deer and turkey hunt on some of their land.. they are managed by them and our Fish and Wildlife properties.. ... What is this "partner" thingy, "do it mean what I think it do" ? .... there is much wrong with her thinking, being a vegan is just part of it... its not a healthy lifestyle at all, it has been shown such in my above posts, an omnivorous or paleo diet is much more healthy and is basically what I eat ...

Support for hunting can be looked at in at least 3 ways, at least for me, #1 is for wildlife management and "sport", they exist because we care about the whole specie, not just one animal ... #2-Biblical, we are superior to animals and they were put here for us humans to utilize and lastly #3 we humans ARE animals, predatory animals, who have as much right to hunt and eat meat as any Lion or fox or hawk... I can live with all three being good reasons, while the last two are contradictory, I can live with that ... she cant ...

From: sticksender
16-Mar-18
The lunatic fringe will never succeed in convincing the rational majority to join their twisted push to de-throne humans as the apex predator. Roughly 97% of the US population enjoys eating meat and using animal products every day, and that's not likely to change much. As long as the animal is used, the overwhelming majority accepts hunting and always will.

This tiny vocal minority is especially keen to attack female hunters. We've seen this over and over again. The concept of women hunting just doesn't compute, with respect to these extremist's kooky narrative that hunters are blood thirsty simpletons, hopped up on testosterone, who hunt merely for the pure joy of killing. It is absolutely confounding for them to see women hunt, because it illustrates so vividly how wrong they are about the motivation to hunt.

From: midwest
16-Mar-18
"She said she cant go back to Africa because of all the push back from anti hunters and the level of attack she received last time she went."

Looks like she's letting the ARA's win.

From: smarba
16-Mar-18
Ceart: "smarba: It's different for humans because we have the choice. Having the choice makes what we eat a moral issue. We can cause unnecessary suffering, or we can choose not to."

When I release an arrow (or bullet, as I rifle hunt too) an animal typically is dead within seconds. Often the animal makes no reaction to the fatal wound, but merely stands there and keels over quietly.

Every living thing, including you and me is going to die at some point. Which causes more "unnecessary suffering": dead in seconds or dead in hours or days from hunger, thirst or predators gnawing at various parts of your body?

Wild animals rarely die in their sleep. Unless you count freezing to death. So I fail to see how hunting increases "unnecessary suffering?"

Hypothetically if animals could reason like humans, which they aren't capable of, would any of them vote for starving to death over a bullet or arrow? If a human faced the choice: be locked in a cold prison cell with no food or water and absolutely no hope for escape, or a bullet to the forehead, how many humans would prefer the former option?

I fail to see the logic in your point of view. Hypothetically if we evolved to be the apex animal in the entire ecosystem, what part of "survival of the fittest" says "but once you're the fittest you need to deviate from evolution and do the opposite"?

From: David A.
16-Mar-18
Ted Kerasote, published some figures on the petrokcalories required to produce potatoes and other plant foods vs. petrokcalories to produce a similar amount of meat from hunting and the formers was wildly more costlhy in energy...even factoring in the energy costs of hunter transportation (there are also huge costs of shipping, packaging, etc. in agricultural food production). Petrokcalories indexes to environmental harm. It is the hidden costs of food production that really impacts the environment. Not one in ten thousand people know anything about this precisely because they will go their entire lives w/o being responsible for a single meal (growing it or killing it). Michael Pollen, in his book, The Omnivore's Dilemma, points out the danger of this. We are truly alienated from food production. Not to mention a lot of "food" today is what I would call "experimental" - many of the things people are eating today has no precedent in our evolutionary history. A lot of the stuff in boxes and cans is highly questionable, and yet the supermarkets are filled with it.

Ceat, you should also read Pollen's books - and he's admittedly pro vega and not particularly in favor of hunting and admits he favors animal rights somewhat. Read his conclusions! lol

From: TD
16-Mar-18
Well..... if nothing else comes of this, and I'm pretty sure it won't..... maybe David found someone to read his books..... =D

16-Mar-18
"Societies all over the world have lived without meat since ancient times. "

This is BS and you know it. The only one that has that's of any note are the Indians and they do it because they believe in reincarnation. Their lacto-ovo diets are based off of BS, just as yours is.

I'll second Paul Shephard's books. "The Tender Carnivore and the Sacred Game" is a very good book, as is his last book that was a collection of his final works and written by his wife called "Coming Home to the Pleistocene."

They're not hunting books per se, but do a good job explaining how we evolved and hunting's role in that.

Another good one is "The Vegetarian Myth." I'm sure it's nothing you want to hear, but exposure to opposing views is healthy.

The fact of the matter is, a purely vegan diet is not good for the human body nor the planet. It can be argued that feeding this many billions of people is not good for the planet, but mass agriculture on a scale to feed this many people surely is not and the only carbon neutral, renewable source of food that doesn't destroy entire ecosystems, is the hunting of wild animals.

16-Mar-18
David A.:

crop -> livestock -> human is less efficient than crop -> human.

There are differences between animal-based and plant-based agricultures. The former eats the latter. That's sad, because 925 million people are suffering from the effects of hunger, and 2.5 million children under the age of 5 die of starvation each year. So although there is enough food to feed everybody; it's being fed instead to animals which are then eaten. According the the university of Minnesota if all food crops were fed directly to humans instead of animals, around 70% more food would be added to the world’s supply, which would be enough to feed 4 billion additional people. The British Dietetic Association's policy statement asserts : "a cultural shift towards a more plant based diet is required to reduce GHG emissions, improve land and water use and relieve other environmental pressures." The Peer reviewed Plosone environmental study of diets observes that "The largest environmental benefits across indicators were seen in those diets which most reduced the amount of animal-based foods, such as vegan (first place in terms of benefits for two environmental indicators), vegetarian (first place for one indicator), and pescatarian (second and third place for two indicators) " Also, given how many bowsite.forum users argue that God/human-superiority entitles them to kill non-humans; suggesting that non-hunters might be non-human is reckless.

Medicinemann: Tell you what. I'll overlook the fact that non-hunting conservation organizations wouldn't view wildlife as 'game'; and try to find an organization that nonetheless meets your terms. I'll try to do that, if you explain what survival advantage a rabbit gains by being able to feel pain; and why that might not be such an advantage for lettuce. Deal?

Boreal: Homer mentions Lotus eaters in the Odyssey. Herodotus (AKA The Father of History) called them 'Lotophagi', and identified them as indigenous people in North Africa. Diodorus Siculus wrote in Bibliotheca historica of vegetarian tribes in Ethiopia. Apparently. I'm only going by what uncle Google says. The Manusmriti law book from the ancient Vedic period 1500 - 500 BCE states, "There is no sin in eating meat... but abstention brings great rewards."(Bhaskarananda, Swami (2002). The Essentials of Hinduism. Seattle: The Vedanta Society of Western Washington)

Vegetarianism was, and is, mandatory for yogis. According to Yogic culture, saattvik food (“cereals, fresh fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts, sprouted seeds, whole grains and milk taken from a cow, which is allowed to have a natural birth, life and death including natural food, after satiating the needs of milk of its calf”) calms and purify the mind “enabling it to function at its maximum potential” and keep the body healthy. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_vegetarianism)

The Pythagoreans were vegetarians in 600BCE. Chinese Taoist Monks and Nuns eat an egg-free vegetarian diet. From the Nara period to the Meiji Restoration (IE for a millennium) Japan was vegetarian, with fish ocassionally eaten during celebrations. Buddhists and Jainists have practiced the principle of nonviolence toward animals since the 6th century BCE.

smarba: In your thought experiment you equate the great outdoors with a prison cell. The "choice" you imagine offering a rational animal is more like A) Die because smarba is amused to kill an admirable example of humanity or B) be left alone to take your chances in the wild. Our ancestors didn't evolve bigger teeth and claws than their predators. They used language and technology to step outside of the savage system. If you wear glasses, or shoes, have a laptop, phone or bow, or flashlight or car; you've followed their footsteps and avoided relying on evolutionary fitness to be an apex predator. Just like the rest of us. Apex means the tip. There can't be 7 billion people at the apex.

From: JTV
16-Mar-18
Well, maybe if some of those Hindu's would eat some of those cattle roaming around over there, they wouldnt look like walking skeletons ... tonight for dinner was ground venison Rigatoni, with 'shrooms, green peppers and extra tomatos for flavor ... damn, it was good ... how many poor poor little veggies did you kill off today by ripping up the roots ??... slap any flies, kill a cockroach, run over a squirrel with your car, what about all those thousands of little moth's and bugs that are killed on the windshield of that auto... or do you only walk or ride a bike... smh ... no, your not better than us who eat meat and hunt.... all you do is deny what you really are ...

16-Mar-18
Well I can tell you this,,,, at 68 years young I feel like I am 35, since I had my open heart last October,,,,, I did what the transplant surgeons said, go on a plant diet, and all wild game meat, no alcohol, and you could sit on your ass, and be in good shape, by that diet.............. Doctors said, be sure to eat a lot of wild game, great protein,,,,,,,,,, good for you and your heart......... The squirrels and rabbits took a beating around the house this winter,,, ha ha......

From: TD
17-Mar-18
In every one of your examples there are but a handful of vegans. And not a one of them could do a days work of hard labor, much less help me pack my elk off the mountain. Urban vegans are pretty much useless at such tasks.

The tools predators use is wide and varied. Humans got good at it. Then got better. In no way, shape or form does it make us any less a natural predator.

You and your religion are but a handful of humanity. I could be in the minority as well..... still packing into the mountains and packing out that with which to feed a family, well into my 70s, hopefully 80s. You OTOH have never fed a family by your own hand in your life.... relying on someone else who has done the dirty work for you. You just whip out the plastic.....

We feed ourselves and our families by our labor.... by our own hand..... we fail... fail.... fail again..... until we succeed. Success means you feed your tribe! It's deeply rooted to be happy for that.... literally in our DNA to be happy about it. Same as finding a mate to procreate. Or seeing that creation born and thrive. None of that is some man made or conceived manifesto. It is literally nature itself. It should be.... needs to be, celebrated. As mankind has it's entire existence.

If you can't grasp how special and unique that is, then it's little wonder your intolerance and myopic views of those who do.

From: David A.
17-Mar-18
Ceat writes: "crop -> livestock -> human is less efficient than crop -> human." Not a given. You think it is but let's add in all the costs including loss of habitat, pesticides, etc. etc. as I mentioned above. I am also not arguing for "livestock" based diet.

Furthermore, "efficiency" is not necessary the most important criteria. If it is to you, then switch to eating algae...

From: David A.
17-Mar-18
Additionally, the studies re: meat vs. vegan health always are comparing livestock meat which is not what hunters are eating. Wild game meat has been proven to lower harmful cholesterol, for example. You cite children starving...when children's brains are starving for animal protein and esp. animal fat. Some vegans hate animal protein so much they substitute soy milk and even fruit juice for human milk. A disaster.

You're not well read and are arguing for simplistic ecologies when I'm talking deep ecology. Do you even know what that means? Waste of my time, sorry. One of these days I will find a vegan who really knows what they are talking about. Someone like Michael Pollen. Read his book, at least.

From: Ambush
17-Mar-18
It was predictable that if Ceart came back it would be with misinformation, half truths and just lies to enforce her dogma. Her "studies" were cherry picked by vegans for vegans and contain the poor science you would expect from zealots. She's not interested in truth or factual science. "Result based science" is very popular today. Simply set the goal, create the criteria and manipulate the data to get that target and then publish within your little circle. Or just misuse existing statistics as in: "FACT: men that routinely have Bic lighters in their pocket are more apt to get lung cancer." And that is true, but of course carrying the lighter is not what causes the cancer.

It is also possible that she is here on kind of a vegan's girl scout assignment. If she invades a meat eater's org, she earns her Brussels Sprout Badge.

17-Mar-18
Brussels sprout badge....lol

From: BIG BEAR
17-Mar-18
Cirque_Du_Soleil_Vegan......... The cabbage clown.

17-Mar-18
What it all comes down to is veganism is an urban-based religion. You'll not convince a religious person their religion is wrong, just like all of you quoting scripture as the basis for eating meat. Both arguments fall on deaf ears.

From: Boreal
17-Mar-18
We should all be thankful that we live in a time and place in history where we can argue about the ethics of our food. If it wasn't abundant, it wouldn't be an issue.

17-Mar-18
Ike times 2.

From: Bill Obeid
17-Mar-18
The argument for human meat eating is in our mouth‘s ....... canine teeth.

They’re given to meat eaters to rip and tear meat. And we all get a set !!

Our digestive tracts were set up that way too!!

A leopard can’t change it’s spots.

If we weren’t supposed to eat meat...... than why does it taste so good !!

From: brooktrout59
17-Mar-18
This thread has evolved from trophy bashing a great bowhuntress to vegan vs meat eaters. Strange- I know a strict vegan who hunts for trophies and gives meat to relatives and another strict vegan who cooks her husbands venison for him.

I guess each to his or her own but please let us all get along!

From: TD
17-Mar-18
Took it 6 years to evolve...... the Vegan dredged up a thread from 2012 for their own bizarre purposes..... not a bowsite member.

We could very well have been an assignment. Happens all the time when a troll pops up on the CF. It's how a lot of groups play the game now.

From: Surfbow
18-Mar-18
It took 6 years for a vegan to compose a response to an act that happened in 2012? That's what too many veggies will do to your brain folks...

From: David A.
18-Mar-18
Well everyone thinks their diet is the best! Same for religion...I'm at an airport as I write this and just had a veggie dinner. End result was one plastic bag, one plastic fork, two plastic containers and one plastic bottle of water. I dutifully placed 'em all in the recylce bin. Ceart's gut pile of life killed today is right there in the trash, as it is for all of us. We just take it for granted.

Shoot an elk or deer and the guts and bones are not pollution, but energy to the ecoystem...it's pretty darn efficient...check back in a day or two and you'll see; but that plastic usually dissolves into microbeads and then the trouble really begins...

From: Ambush
18-Mar-18
Maybe we should offer a reward to the tech-wise hunter that can sleuth out Ceart's real identity and then bombard her with condemnation. Her screen name (sounds like a veggie porn star) is active on a number of sites.

Typical that they call out and threaten good people that have the guts to attach their real names to their convictions, while they spew hate from behind anonymity.

18-Mar-18
ground hunter: Congratulations on your recovery.

David A.: You raised the environmental impact of agriculture in defense of hunting. My response shows why that is not a sound argument.

IdyllwildArcher: That's an interesting thought. I don't personally consider veganism to be a religion, but maybe it is, just not in a way I can see? I haven't been vegan for very long, I don't know it's history, I haven't read much about it.

brooktrout59: In what sense can a trophy hunter be vegan?

TD: I was providing examples of non-meat based diets. Frankly I was surprised to find any ancient examples. I have no idea if these ancient people could do hard labor. But modern vegans certainly can:

https://www.ecosia.org/images?q=veganathletes

I'm not on an assignment. If you really think I'm trolling, contact the site admin.

There are diabolical consequences to trying and failing at bow hunting.

Surfbow: The bear is still dead.

From: David A.
18-Mar-18
"My response shows why that is not a sound argument." Your "responses" show you really don't have a response and you haven't gone very deep into this. Better you ignore most of my eading suggestions re: Paul Shepard. They are not for everyone. You probably could manage Michael Pollen's book, The Omnivore's Dilemma: Young Readers Edition.

18-Mar-18

stick n string's embedded Photo
stick n string's embedded Photo
My brothers shirt at a bday party today. Perfect....

From: David A.
18-Mar-18
Well, I love veggies, but the problems of agricultural pollution (e.g. "POPS") is underestimated and these problems have a long arm.

Ceart might at least want to take a look here: http://www.arctic.uoguelph.ca/cpl/arcticnews/articles/PolarBears/PolarBear.htm

From: Surfbow
18-Mar-18
Yep, Ceart, the bear is dead, just as dead as the the brussels sprouts and various other greenery you've harvested in your mom's basement...and yet the world turns!

From: Yttails
18-Mar-18

Yttails's embedded Photo
Yttails's embedded Photo

18-Mar-18
Ceart, veganism is very much a religion. Read "The Vegetarian Myth." It details how it is a religion and its lapses in logic. If you promise to read it, I'll buy it for you and send it to you via Amazon. It's just an opposing view, so if your world view and logic are correct, it shouldn't disaffect you.

From: brooktrout59
18-Mar-18
Ce art my good friend does not eat meat, fish, poultry nor dairy but hunts, fishes, and chews tobacco. He has Trophy Buck mounts in his house.Is being a vegan or vegetarian what you eat or something else. Because he hunts he cannot be a vegan and /or vegetarian? My college logic professor would love this back and forth!

19-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher: I'll listen to your argument if you have one.

brooktrout59: It grieves me to admit that your friend may be a vegan.

From: TD
19-Mar-18

From: TD
19-Mar-18

TD's embedded Photo
TD's embedded Photo
Non-vegan

From: TD
19-Mar-18

TD's embedded Photo
TD's embedded Photo
Vegan.....both are same age..... this is more the norm I have seen. Can't swing a dead cat here without running into a sickly weak vegan here. But then there are a bunch of trust funders who don't work, starving artists, etc. here.

BTW.... checked out your vegan athletes...... most of it BS..... Mike Tyson was not vegan when he was World Heavyweight Champ even though he may be now. (prolly about the time he got his face tattooed....) Many of those listed were "Vegan Champion" or "Vegan Athlete the Year" or some such. Most pro athletes cannot keep up the muscle mass and strength needed to compete at that level with a vegan diet. i.e. Not many vegan linebackers in the NFL.....

From: TD
19-Mar-18
Again..... I couldn't care less what you eat. Rocks and sand or baby seal pate..... (like your deceased polar bear used to...)

Unlike you I make no moral judgements as to what someone or some cultures eat. Some eat rats, monkeys, dogs, cats or insects. I don't care, long as it's not my dog....(no dog in the fight so to speak)

I do have issues with someone else telling be what I should and should not eat..... especially if they claim so for moral, religious or ethical reasons.

I used to freak out some folks with "no furs" bumper stickers on their Volvo or Beemer..... the ones parked there with leather seats and interior, leather bag, shoes, belts...... so totally unaware and oblivious to the world that they were shocked when I told em "you do know that leather is just fur with the hair scrapped off don't you???"

From: David A.
19-Mar-18
Agricultural and other pollutants are negatively affecting polar bears reproductive health (and of course human health); from the aforementioned article:

"There is increasing evidence that PCBs and other organochlorines may affect the immune systems of wildlife, even at very low concentrations. Studies of harbour seals that were fed PCB-contaminated fish showed that immune suppression occurred at a much lower level than other effects-and at levels similar to those found in polar bears in some areas of the Arctic. In 1998, a team of Norwegian scientists that immunized 35 bears and measured contaminant concentrations in their blood found that bears with higher levels of PCBs had lower levels of a group of proteins that function as antibodies. The study was repeated in 1999 with Canadian polar bears, and the data are currently being analyzed.

Organochlorine levels have not changed much since the beginning of accurate polar bear population assessments in the early 1970s, so reproductive effects are difficult to determine. PCBs, DDT or their methylsulfone metabolites are suspected of causing reproductive failure in grey and ringed seals in the Baltic Sea, but at much higher concentrations than in the Arctic. The fact that POPs relocate to target organs when fat reserves are used makes it likely that female bears, fetuses and cubs are at the highest risk from toxic effects because the females fast for up to seven months of the year. Although this theory remains to be proven, a recent study showed that females who had lost cubs sometime during the first year after birth had higher levels of contaminants than those that had kept them.

During the first two years of their lives, cubs have PCB concentrations about twice that of their mothers, largely because contaminants accumulate in the milk they feed on. The breast milk of Inuit women from northern Quebec who eat marine mammals has also been found to contain PCB concentrations 2 to10 arial higher than that of women in the southern part of the province."

Last year, Environment Canada and researchers at the University of British Columbia carried out tests to determine whether testosterone metabolism in male bears is affected by increased concentrations of enzymes in the animals’ livers induced by high levels of PCBs. The Department is also working with Carleton University in Ottawa to test the hypotheses that hydroxy PCB metabolites found in polar bear blood may be interfering with the transport of Vitamin A and a thyroid hormone in blood."

19-Mar-18
I just spent 16 hours over the past few days typing up an exhaustive story of my 2017 hunts. I'm leaving in a couple days for AK where I work 12 hours a day. I'm not going to type up an exposé on Veganism as a religion. The book does a wonderful job of it; better than I can. The offer stands. PM me and I'll have it mailed wherever if you want to read it. I'd offer to buy you the Tender Carnivore and the Sacred Game, but it's an expensive book. I'll mail it to you if you'll mail it back after you read it and in return, I'll read a book of your choosing.

From: JTV
19-Mar-18
Oh snap ... it "grieves her" that a person who hunts dosnt eat meat .. "aint that special" ...... oh boo hoo.. cry me a river .. still never answered the question many posts ago, do you "grieve" over all those flies, moths, butterflies, bees, etc. that get smashed on or windshield ... what about that raccoon smashed in the highway, or that squirrel that gets eaten by a Hawk ???

From: Dutch oven
19-Mar-18
What's a "prolly"?

From: JTV
19-Mar-18
'prolly is hilljack for Probably .... ;0) .... as in "He'll 'prolly go to the square dance" ...

19-Mar-18
TD: People can be vegan and fat, vegan and thin, vegan and pretty, vegan and ugly. The vegan athletes link is just an unfiltered image search result. But it shows that people can also be vegan and strong. There are degrees of veganism, and it attracts all kinds of different people. It's the intention to minimize harm to animals that they have in common - (except for brooktrout59's friend. I don't know what he's doing.) I wasn't trying to prove that vegan athletes are the best. Even if it did, you could argue that they might perform even better as carnists, and around and around we'd go. The link is offered as a rebuttal to your assertion that no vegan could be fit to do a day's work.

Nobody likes to be told what to do. I'm not here to make the case for veganism. You'll consider it, or not, as you please. I came here to speak my mind regarding Ms Leqve's act of animal cruelty.

David A.: Thanks David, I actually did read the link. It's sad in itself, and also an uncomfortable point for to those who praised Ms Leqve's actions on the grounds of her providing food for Innuit people.

IdyllwildArcher: Well, it's just my reading list from this thread is getting out of hand. I think I can say veganism is not a religion for 2 reasons. 1) There are Christian vegans Jewish vegans and Muslim vegans. There are no Christian and Jewish Muslims. 2) Non-vegans are the ones participating in animal sacrifice. I did read the first few pages of The Vegetarian Myth, and some reviews. (As divided as you'd expect!). It looks interesting. I'll keep reading and if I'm interested I'll track down a copy. I've already resolved to read Tender Carnivore and the Sacred Game. I don't want you to mail me a copy, but thanks for the offer.

JTV: I meant I hate to admit that someone who kills animals for fun or to decorate her apartment can also technically be a vegan. That realization stings, because I have to reconsider some closely held views.

From: Dutch oven
19-Mar-18
Jeff, I know----I'm just poking fun at some of the comments here. A lot of silly replies that play into the hands of the vegans. They are getting a kick out of this.

From: David A.
19-Mar-18
"David A.: Thanks David, I actually did read the link. It's sad in itself, and also an uncomfortable point for to those who praised Ms Leqve's actions on the grounds of her providing food for Innuit people."

And ditto for their eating seals which they have done for untold thousands of years! Of course you would want these cold weather people eating carrots and what not! Do you realize it is agriculture that is to blame??? These deadly chemicals are not just in the artic biosphere, in fact they are more common closer to the source! Every single vegetable and fruit in OUR local markets has agricultural contaminents/poisons, there are books and hundreds of research papers on this. The only out is to pay exorbitant prices for organic produce and even so, there is no escape from the production, shipping, packaging, and other energy costs. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH! IMPOSSIBLE!

The above mentioned chemicals are undboubtedly in your tissues as well, which is a concern for you own risks to cancers. So stop, believing vegetarianism or veganism doesn't kill. You have your head stuck in the sand.

From: Tonybear61
19-Mar-18
"The hunter forces his will upon the prey." How about the . Pretty much fits animals and plants of all types. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH! IMPOSSIBLE! -Yes tis true. A number of years ago a study group in Exter England looked at how many megajoules it took to create a palatable consumer forces their will upon the consumedfood source from both animal and plant bases. Surprisingly the argument that vegan diets(plant based) are more suitable for the environment(uses less megajoules) didn't hold up.

I have not seen anyone argue that point so I added it.

JTV your info about the nutritionally limiting vegan diet is spot on. I have a good friend who has tried it (former running partner) and just can't achieve good health without some type of animal protein. Typically eggs, chicken or fish. He has a philosophy of limiting his carbon footprint, non-hunting etc. but actually does go out with the family on owned woods to help with deer drives, packing deer out and butchering. Chooses to be a close to vegan as he can but doesn't push his philosophy on me or his family. Just his choice on philosophy with the realization others don't have to follow his philosophy, nor is he on a higher plane than anyone else.

Ceart go ahead and choose which foods you want to eat or not eat. However you never did answer my question do vegans support the conservation effort with finances to the level that hunters, fisherman and wild game enthusiasts do??? Those efforts help a lot more non-game animals than game animals where ever and whenever they are applied. Increase in antelope, turkeys , wood ducks, deer, various types of trout, coincides with benefits for songbirds, minnows, amphibians, turtles, etc. No one else even comes close to what Pittman Robertson, Dingle Johnson or Wallop Beaudrou (hunter, fisherman tax programs) do for wildlife. That is an undebateble fact. So throw Christ, Budda or Drhama Tushi into the argument of who has the right to kill what to eat but ultimately the consumer forces their will upon the consumed, until we are no longer in human form but that is a matter for a different debate.

From: smarba
20-Mar-18
Ceart: "It's the intention to minimize harm to animals that they have in common "

My point earlier is that somebody NOT hunting in no way affects harm to animals. They're going to to die and it will very likely be in a MUCH more harmful way than by a hunter's bullet or arrow. So me hunting doesn't INCREASE any harm to an animal - it's coming one way or another.

Somehow a wolf killing and eating an animal for food is all part of touchy feely nature, but me doing so (having evolved to be just an animal at the top of the food chain and all - tongue in cheek) is BAD...

From: David A.
20-Mar-18
Actually many anti hunters want all predation to stop in sort of a Walt Disney fantasy. They would prefer all the animals "get along" without any of this killing business. In not accepting Nature as she is, it's really just a variety of Nature hating.

From: Ambush
20-Mar-18
Ceart claims that because we have a higher conscious than "other animals" we have a moral obligation and choice to be compassionate towards them and not inflict suffering. I agree.

So out of compassion for hundreds of prey animals, I humanly kill a few top predators every year. She and her cult can be assured that the death I provide is one hundred times more humane than the death forced onto the victims of the preds a little farther down the ladder from me. Sleep easy Ceart and company, I have heard your pleas and I am selflessly reducing suffering. This spring, when I release my bow string, I will whisper your name as a prayer to guide my arrow on it's live's saving mission to the bear.

Perhaps I'll write your name on the fletches as a tribute to your caring.

20-Mar-18
David A.: I'm not here to argue about veganism. At no point have I argued that any of the many possible vegan diets are perfect. But your article indicates that toxins accumulate in animals, becoming more concentrated as they are passed up the food chain. For this reason, it's still better to carefully wash and eat plants, rather than eat the flesh of animals that have been raised on them. Right? Better for the planet, too! Misuse of pesticides is a terrible problem, I agree. It does not justify or excuse Ms Leqve.

Tonybear61: (how about the . what?) Please reformat your point regarding the [sic]Exter England study, I don't understand the point you are making. I've minimized interaction with you because your arguments come out as an absolute jumble. That makes them difficult to respond to. You've outright called me a lier, multiple times, which makes me disinclined to engage with you. But okay, I'll address your first post, right now, and if you have time to reformat your second post (which raises the admittedly difficult issues of conservation hunting) I'll take a crack at that, too.

"Ceart quit lying"

I'm not

", yes you do have something personally against Ms Leqve ,"

I don't

" stop lying."

I'm not.

" Hunting Polar bears (an animal far from being extinct or endangered) "

Debatable. Polar bears depend on sea ice as a platform to hunt seals The long term warming trend in spring temperatures puts them in a very precarious position, regardless of absolute numbers. I'd be against her actions even they were as common as Atlas Bears.

"is something she is proud of,"

...yeah. That's kind of my point.

" the bear was taken legally"

I haven't contested that.

" and hunting fees, other expenses helped support the locals."

I haven't contested that.

" Since you have identified yourself as a vegan, that is by choice is it not??"

Yes. Are we talking about my choice to try not to harm any sentient beings, or her vanity kill which did the opposite?

" Ms Leqve has identified herself as a hunter by choice and that is the right of both of you to do so."

She may have a legal right. I contest her moral right to needlessly end the lives of innocent beings.

" Nobody is making you a vegan, so back off unless you really know what you are talking about as far as conservation, hunters ethic, the religious aspect, what can and cannot be hunted, eaten, and CELEBRATED!! "

I object to all forms of animal cruelty. I reject the notion that an animal's life has no moral value. I reject the notion that barbaric pleasure killings like this should go unchallenged.

"Just like all human ancestors did going back about 150-180,000 years."

Do you have any idea what kind of deranged horror show we're crawling out of, historically speaking? The norms of our ancient ancestors do not constitute a suitable template for our own.

" Can you say the same about vegan, anti-hunter, folks who choose not to interact with nature at a fundamental level?? "

This is not a coherent sentence. Can I say the same what? Also, just because a person doesn't destroy nature's most splendid beings, doesn't mean she can't appreciate them.

"Do they support the conservation effort by equipment taxes, lisc. fees and personal donations as hunters and fishermen?? "

Vegans? Some do, I'm sure. Some don't. Mostly though, they try to do what all humans aught to do: no harm.

"Probably not (although there is that one Gary Larson cartoon), "

Gary Larson rocks.

"As far as any death threats made or to be made on Ms Leqve her husband, family and anyone else via internet forums, be advised terroristic threats are illegal, regardless of the person's intent to carry them out or not. Same thing for threatening a legislator who attempts to pass a bill folks don't like ( pro-gun, anti gun, anti-hunting, changes in policy, etc.) "That is: "a shameful act that diminishes all of us." So disagree but stop the micro aggression, violent overtones or personal threats please."

I have threatened no one. I've been as civil as my outrage about the subject of Leqve allows me to be. By contrast I've been called emotionally disturbed, a hideous troll with reality detachment syndrome, a nut job, spineless, a fool, an espouser of idiocy, a "sick cookie", a misguided fool, and on and on and worse.

20-Mar-18

Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans's Link

20-Mar-18

Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans's embedded Photo
Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans's embedded Photo

From: JTV
20-Mar-18
and those all likely are true as you try to prove your on a higher level that us paleo meat eaters .... facts are, as Ive said before, that if it wasnt for hunters, fishermen and trappers, we wouldnt have the abundance of wildlife we do today...no group of people have done more to help wildlife, their habitats than conservation minded people we have on here and elsewhere.... it sure as heck isnt PETA, it sure as heck isnt HSUS, and it sure as heck isnt Defenders of Wildlife and the ilk that resides within their memberships .... your the one who came on here looking to start trouble, well, you got it .. this is what liberals do, they cant just leave well enough alone, they always have to go looking to start some crap ... ... if you want to be a vegan, hey, thats your choice.... if I want to eat a big healthy Elk steak, that is MY choice ... I'll continue to do what I can to help conserve wildlife habitat and the critters within, and while I'm at it, eat one or two of 'em along the way. Nature exists that way, something is always eating another ... something must die, so something can live ...that is nature .. your just to damn blind to see it ..

20-Mar-18

PAbowhunter1064's embedded Photo
PAbowhunter1064's embedded Photo

20-Mar-18

PAbowhunter1064's embedded Photo
PAbowhunter1064's embedded Photo

20-Mar-18

PAbowhunter1064's embedded Photo
PAbowhunter1064's embedded Photo

From: Bill Obeid
20-Mar-18
Ceart quotes...”She may have a legal right. I contest her moral right to needlessly end the lives of innocent beings."

There is no innocence in wild animals. That innocent polar bear would eat your child for lunch. Send your daughter to fill a container of water down at the river and that alligator would consume her after he was finished pulling her legs off and drowning her.

Send your husband to the next village for a cup of sugar and a pride of lions see a McDonalds neon sign flashing.

Go for a hike picking bolete mushrooms and it could end with a pack of wolves enjoying your intestines while you watch.

The world still has wild places and we as hunters still get to experience those places and we often seek those places out so we can be reminded that the wilderness is not that far removed from where we are today. We cherish our time afield and we are as wild as the animals we share the planet with.

I’d like to apologize for those that called you names.... that certainly isn’t necessary nor did it reflect well on our community as a whole....especially when you are trying to have an intelligent conversation. But , you and the Bowsite community are coming from two different worlds and your voice certainly isn’t anything any of us can comprehend. I’ve enjoyed your civilized approach but this thread is waning and of course no one’s mind has been changed. I’m still not sure why you immersed yourself in such a hostile environment. We know that there are animal rights people in the world.... but honestly ... when we are out exploring the wild corners of the world we don’t run into any.

20-Mar-18
Cliff notes(i dont know if Ceart is a man, a woman or a what, and since there was enough courage to come to a hunting site and tap on a keyboard hiding behind a fake jibberish name instead of having the courage to put their name to what they type, salad eater will be the name i use in reference to it).....

Salad eater doesnt like that a lady killed a polar bear 6 years ago, and doesnt believe that humans need to or should hunt animals and eat their meat.

Every other person here is a hunter and salad eater chose to come here to post the distaste for what we here love to do. We have a view of what nature is and what our part in nature is which couldnt be more different than salad eater's.

Some here have had "hurt" salad eaters feelings by calling salad eater a liar and saying salad eater has some mental issues and salad eater has passive aggressively insulted us, what we believe and what we love to do.

Some here have had civil conversation with salad eater to prove our side of things, nothing of which has made a difference. NOTHING that could be said will make a difference with salad eater. Just as none of the things salad eater has said has proven or influenced anything we believe.

We just dont believe the same thing about what nature is. That obviously wont change. Time to head back to the garden, we will do our thing, you can go do yours.

From: fastflight
20-Mar-18
For the most part this thread has been very good. I think most of the hunters that posted had very well thought out points and did a great job of explaining why we hunt and how nature really works. We are not just cold blooded killers. All of the well thought out posts prove that. I have always loved the saying " One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted" I have to admit I have way more respect for vegans than I do anti hunters that eat store bought meat all the time though. We won't change a vegans mind and they won't change ours. I think it was silly for Cert to come here thinking anybody would listen. I sure wouldn't go to a vegan site and try to get them to eat meat.

20-Mar-18
Well said, FF

From: HUNT MAN
20-Mar-18

HUNT MAN's embedded Photo
HUNT MAN's embedded Photo

From: Medicinemann
20-Mar-18
Bill Obeid and Fastflight, I agree with what both of you posted. When Ceart first started posting on this site, I asked why.....to what end? As posted above, here is the response....."I was on facebook, and I saw that photo of Ms Leqve posing with the bear. I knew immediately it was fake. It had to be. First of all, it just looked super fake. Like, not even photoshopped- more like she'd been cut out of an awkward family photo and glued into a collage with a gigantic sleeping bear. Even the bear looked fake. Besides, who in their right mind would smile and pose after doing something like that? So I googled Ms Leqve. And holy mother of god, she really did it, didn't she. And among the petitions and outpouring of anger and confusion - I found this forum, where other human beings were professing their support and admiration. So, here we are. " Not much of an explanation.....but here we are. It might be worthy of mention that the photos were NOT fake, and they were NOT photoshopped.....this brings up another point....to people that come from a different mindset, it is interesting that initially, they frequently insult, attack, or assume an offensive posture......So, like Stick n String stated, Ceart hasn't changed our mind, and we haven't changed Ceart's....time to go our own ways and let this thread fade.

From: Tonybear61
20-Mar-18
Encourage folks to read The Hunting Apes-Meat Eating and The Origins of Human Behavior by Craig B. Stanford It basically captures the huge role hunters have played in human evolution, the effort which allowed us to develop into beings who could invent computers and chat across thousands of miles debating the benefits of hunting method still being practiced after 150-180,000 years. Yep hunters know their roots. I will debate that hunting was and still is a good thing for the human species, not a deranged horror show or needless pleasure as you visualize . No poet or anyone else will ever change my mind, certainly calling the activity and my right to choose to eat what I want immoral.. On the other hand the likes of HSUS, PeTA ( a terrorist supporting organization- Rodney Adams Coronado the fire bomber and ELF, ALF come to mind) can never compare to the conservation effort supported by hunters and fishermen.

Vegans do no harm? Gimme a break. The most infamous mass killer, Adolf Hitler, was a vegetarian; a fact confirmed by one of his food tasters that survived the Nazi death camps, Adam Lanza, who killed 27 people at Sandy Hook, and Nathuram Godse, who murdered Gandhi (the champion of non-violence), were also vegetarians. The association of meat eating (and hunting for that matter) with aggression and violence stems from deep rooted prejudices, fed by pseudoscientific ‘experts’ and organizations with an agenda, like PeTA. The real cause for aggression violence and destructive tendencies in human society is not so much because of food choices, but because of cultural, social, and religious influences. These are the main drivers of violence and intolerance, as is evident throughout human history. Again key is intolerance, when folks chastise good people like Michele for hunting that is intolerance. If you don't want to eat meat don't, don't want to hunt then don't . I don't want to be a vegan so I won't be just like most of the others on this thread.

From: Tonybear61
20-Mar-18

Tonybear61's embedded Photo
Credit to Gary Larson
Tonybear61's embedded Photo
Credit to Gary Larson
The cartoon I referenced earlier. Had some great carrots with cabbage, red potatoes, corned beef and soda bread this weekend.

From: David A.
21-Mar-18
"David A.: I'm not here to argue about veganism. At no point have I argued that any of the many possible vegan diets are perfect. But your article indicates that toxins accumulate in animals, becoming more concentrated as they are passed up the food chain. For this reason, it's still better to carefully wash and eat plants, rather than eat the flesh of animals that have been raised on them. Right? Better for the planet, too! Misuse of pesticides is a terrible problem, I agree. It does not justify or excuse Ms Leqve"

That is precisely why wild game meat is usually healthier than beef and even vegetarian food. It usually escapes the pesticides, et. al. So the hunter is not washing the meat to get rid of pesticides that have been directly sprayed upon it as in wheat, rice, corn, lettce, celery, tomatoes, apples, and all the rest...And unlike beef, no antibiotics and hormones. Generally, it's about as clean and healthy as one can get although there are exceptions. And unlike cattle - deer, elk, and even bear are not harmful to the environment, indeed they may be helpful to the environment in which they co-evolved. Hunting and gathering was the ONLY long term mode of human existance that allowed our species to live in relative harmony with the planet for many tens of thousands of years. Our current mode including the one you espouse is experimental and frankly, the experiment is not going well having wrecked the world's ecosystems and brought our species to the brink of overpopulation and enironmental catastrope! You don't have long term perspective...Some of the books suggested can help rectify your ignorance, but they require bandwidth...I have no interest in hunting polar bears, or elephants for that matter but if the hunts helps these species, I wouild be in favor of it. And if you dare ask, how can killing an animal help it's species, we're done here. I'll have wasted enough time with someone who doesn't even have a clue about wildlife management and conservation.

21-Mar-18
If you think Inuits should give up eating seals and the rest of their niqipiaq (native Eskimo food), I'd encourage you to come up here and tell them so; I'll give you a place to stay while you preach your religion. I'll even feed you a vegan diet as I live off of meat and vegetables exclusively. I can make an extra salad.

I can tell you what will happen though - you'll be laughed at as they see through your naivete. And if your ilk come up here and try and force them to give it up, you'll quickly find a rifle pointed in your face. These people have been eating whales and other sea mammals for more than ten thousand years. They are hunters and it defines who they are. They don't care what an urbanite with a 50 year-old idea thinks. Just like the rest of us hunters.

We know who we are. You're just trying to figure something out. And it's ridiculous and flies in the face of biology.

From: David A.
21-Mar-18
Salads and the like just don't work well when it is COLD, so cold your body craves fat and you'll be happy eating a bar of butter...today of course, the arm chair critics just adjust the thermostat and make a little trip to the store, pick and choose; It's all so ez and clean...oh wait, not really (look deeper, go way deep to find the truth)...

From: Tonybear61
21-Mar-18
A recent study published in PNA just last Nov. by White and Hall demonstrated through modeling that if (if it is even possible) to remove all consumption of animals from agriculture it may reduce Greehouse Gas emissions but would also create a food supply incapable of supporting the population's nutritional requirements. So in effect starving folks. Sorry I'd rather participate in a "Feed My Starving Children" food packing event than discuss this issue any further. Yep that's what us hunters do help the world in many ways.

From: Scoot
21-Mar-18
Excellent post fastflight. You spell out perfectly why I quit bothering to post in this thread. Also, I completely agree with you regarding the quality of posts by fellow bowsiters in this thread. Well thought out and nicely delivered. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, that info falls on deaf ears with this one and those of her ilk. She's not stupid, just misguided and misinformed and trying to convince her otherwise won't happen.

From: Ambush
21-Mar-18

Ambush's embedded Photo
Ambush's embedded Photo

22-Mar-18
smarba: The inevitability of death doesn't diminish the value of life. Let me rephrase your point regarding the wolf in a way that highlights how absurd it is. If a shark dismembers a surfer with it's teeth, we talk about costal safety. But if I dismember a surfer with my teeth, you all act like I'm some kind of monster.

Also, The best bowhunters wound more animals than the worst. "It is disquieting to know that we probably wound one deer for every animal harvested." - David Samuel, Bowhunter Magazine.

Ambush: I hope you don't go as far as writing my name on your hunting equipment; but the harm has been done. You've gone from engaging in productive debate, to flinging ineffective insults from the sideline. You then lowered yourself further with calls to doxx me, and now you're at the bottom, with implied threats of violence. You can go no lower, because we'll never meet. But it cheers me to imagine that you may have accidentally NLP'd yourself into thinking "Ceart_Ag_Na_Vegans" (The Vegans are right), every time you handle an arrow.

Bill Obeid: Thanks Bill. It is our capacity to choose that makes killing a moral issue. We have knowledge of good and evil. The wolf, the alligator, the lion - even the lothsome parasites hatching and squirming inside the bear - they are all entirely innocent, because they are incapable of choosing otherwise. Leqve is not.

fastflight: I will reflect upon your quote, but I do encourage you to visit a vegan website and enter the debate. www.reddit.com/r/debateavegan for example. If logic and reason are on your side, you will change a logical and reasonable person's opinion.

From: Tonybear61
22-Mar-18
The Camp Ripley study addressed the wounding issue many years ago, no its not 50%, many factors less than that. A quote from one archer on his experience does not make a universal statistic, the one used by the anti-hunting lobby all the time.

I know of a number of folks who have hunted decades and never lost one. Others can be reckless just like any other activity. That is one reason a lot of the special population control hunts require Bowhunters Education certificate. They go over proper shot placement tracking, etc. and a qualification to demonstrate shooting skills. The bow is a very effective hunting tool that's why its still around after 150-180,000 years.

From: elk yinzer
22-Mar-18
There is no logic and reason I was born to be a hunter. It essential to my very being.

Do you also support gay conversion therapy Vegan?

Do you really think you can change the essential, innate qualities that define a person?

I am dearly sorry you were born missing the hunter gene. You have no clue what you are missing out on.

P.S. as a natural born hunter I have absolutely zero desire to shoot a polar bear, but I don't pretend to be intellectually above those that do so I keep my mouth shut about things I don't know about.

From: Scoot
22-Mar-18
"If logic and reason are on your side, you will change a logical and reasonable person's opinion."

You couldn't be more wrong with that statement, Ceart. There's tons of research on this topic and the phenomenon is actually quite well empirically understood. Once a person forms a strong opinion about a topic, logic and reason have little to no impact on them. You are a wonderful example of this very effect throughout this entire thread!

From: TD
22-Mar-18
Right out of the Troll Assignment Handbook:

" The longer you can keep the masses engaged the greater the chance you may have an influence on at least some of them. As long as people are still replying they are engaged. "

Sorry you may be offended..... but in all honesty I find your very presence here to talk down to a group of hunters with your touchy feely drivel is offensive. If you're going to get very far in this Troll gig you're gonna have to get some thicker skin.

You are not using logic, as logic requires facts. You are quite bereft of them, you are using opinions, feelings and false premises as facts and are refusing to recognize opposing facts when given. A disingenuous debate at best.

WE didn't go looking for YOU to harass or offend...... in fact it is normally in the nature of hunters, especially bowhunters, to be left the hell alone, they live and strive for the very definition of independence. They expect the same courtesy from others. You literally had to go out searching for us to harass. Via a 6 year old thread.

Cry your tears of offense somewhere else. You people gather in packs and very publicly attack others who have nothing to hide while you hide behind keyboards in anonymity like cowards.

If you feel you must keep digging in your hole, by all means continue. In fact, I think you should use a bigger shovel..... this has been very informative as to who it is that oppose hunting and the Disneyland fantasy world they have created and surrounded themselves with. You have lost all connection with any reality that exists outside your urban world.

From: JTV
22-Mar-18
Actual "wounding" rates are very low, there have been many studies including Camp Ripley that support this... heck, a Mtn. Lion or Pack of wolves are not 100% either, actually far from it... every hunter I know attempts to put an animal down quickly and humanely ... being ate alive by a pack of wolves isnt exactly "humane" now is it .... Logic and reason is NOT something that animal rights activist/vegans use.. theirs is all based on emotions and about feeeeelings.... science supports managed hunting ... just what is the present animal rights activist/vegans preferred methods for controlling wildlife populations ? ... Ive been thru all this before as Ive have taken on some HSUS folks in the past... Ive actually studied and looked at what works after spending much time on a study committee to looks at various options... contraception dosnt work on a large free ranging wild deer herd, sharpshooting only works in localized populations and is very very expensive... I set up a urban bowhunting program in a local town years back and pretty much kicked the HSUS/contraception fans out of the place... in the years following, bowhunters have removed over 400 deer from the locality... vegetation has made a great come back, human conflicts have been reduced, auto collisions reduced and the remaining deer are healthier... we still take deer out of the town every year, but now the numbers are under control, and this now a maintenance phase... same as what we have done here in our State parks using both Bowhunting and firearms... which BTW, has been a successful program to manage the deer in those places ... science bears this out thru the many studies done on/in these places ...

From: Bake
22-Mar-18
I like TD's last post. I don't even know why this person is here. What a waste of time.

And this community has been VERY tolerant . . .

I would bet a tidy sum that if I posted under an anonymous name on a Vegan board, and posted a picture of my elk steak, that I would receive death threats from those bastions of "tolerance".

From: Ambush
22-Mar-18
A few observations then I'm done.

Ceart accuses me of threatening violence toward her. I did not. That is the arena and M.O. of the Anti hunter. She paints all hunters with the same brush and she came here wearing the anti-hunter hat so I lump her in with all anti-hunters. She suggests that because I recommended she be doxx'ed, I mean for her to be threatened or physically harmed. Contempt would be to call her some of the names she has been called already. Here is a quote from an anti-hunter to a bear hunter:

" I'd love to riddle your f-ing body with bullets, skin you alive and put your f-ing murderous head on my wall you piece of shit!!!".

Ceart approves of this, but does not like to be called names.

And "doxxing" That would be a situation going on right now in my province where an anti-hunter tracked down a thirteen your old boy, all the way to his school and encouraged everybody to take whatever means necessary to shame and correct this evil deviant. His crime? There was a picture of him smiling during a day with his dad on his dad's part time trap line. And of course this coward hides in anonymity. Ceart approves of this.

Ceart claims that she is open to debate. More BS. When countered with any facts or science, she simply responds with "but it's a moral choice." Given enough time she will eventually get to "..I know you are, but what am I..". She claimed she wouldn't dare register here with a real name because we are "trained killers". Nothing like a little sensationalism to titillate yourself into feeling like a real soldier!

And one thing used to puzzle me about Ceart's cultist clan. I wondered, why do they always identify with lions, tigers, bears and wolves?? Why never jackals, hyenas and buzzards?? Why always the ones doing the savage killing and not the ones simply picking up the leftovers?!

It is because these are people that are incapable of interjecting themselves into life situations, either physically or intellectually. They are, by themselves, weak and ineffective and yet craving power. They enter a make believe world where they rule, they are the apex predator and they deal out justice to all those that they believe have ignored them. And, like jackals, they band together and attack.

They start bullying campaigns on line to punish people that they think can punish their targets. They don't care about collateral damage. Ceart approves of that.

They can absolutely, ruthlessly destroy lives and careers and feel totally justified because it suits their world view. Ceart approves of that.

But don't call her names, because that is "violence" and her people don't like that. It's unfair.

From: Scoot
22-Mar-18
Ambush-- I like you. :) Haha! Very well said!!! Ceart is spineless and hides behind a shroud of anonymity. Sadly, the internet provides people like her a place to pretend they matter and have an impact on things...

From: JTV
22-Mar-18
Bake, you are correct, they'd want to string you up or burn you at the stake ..

From: David A.
23-Mar-18
"We have knowledge of good and evil. The wolf, the alligator, the lion - even the lothsome parasites hatching and squirming inside the bear - they are all entirely innocent, because they are incapable of choosing otherwise. " --Ceart, more and more you seem to be just another Nature hater. You don't seem to love Nature as she is, but would like to improve Nature...death is Nature's greatest invention, without it no life would be possile. You can't improve upon it.

From: Buskill
23-Mar-18
I’m just now seeing this thread . I’m kinda surprised y’all have bothered to discuss this back n forth for so long . No one is going to change their mind here.

From: JTV
24-Mar-18
Now she has shown her TRUE colors... a full blown animal rights whack a mole ! .... again all you have is BULLCRAP ... nothing but feeeeelings.....every thing you got must have came straight off of a PETA/HSUS web site or handbook ... of course you only picked any results that showed high rates... with out going thru my files, there are more that show rates much much lower... also much or those "studies" you show are 35-60 years old !! there are those more recent that show fractions of what you have... but in reality, you dont really care, because facts dont matter to liberals ...... equipment today is more efficient and more accurate as is the person behind it.... Ive easily killed over 120 deer in the last 40 years, along with other game, and there hasnt been one that has not gone in the freezer and utilized for food ...... I know for what has been lost by myself, and yes it does happen, but it is well under 10% .... hell, there are more deer hit by autos that run off and die that what Ive lost .... .... wounding rates are low, and that is a fact, there many studies that show that, but I wont bother you with those, because they wont fit your narrative... ... so, youve now shown what you are, and the real reason for you to come here and berate a lifestyle we here live ... hunting for most on here isnt a weekend gig, it is not a hobby or "sport"... it is who and what we are, we live it daily ... we understand nature way more than what any animal rights nitwit ever will, because we live within it boundries... we are part of nature when we hunt, when we fish.... we rise with the sun, listening to the woods coming alive around us, the wings whistling of wood ducks as they fly from pond to pond, the banter of the owls as the talk to one another, the mice moving in the leaves around us, yes, we become part of nature, we are nature. I am damn proud to say that I am a hunter and a BOWhunter at that and because of millions like myself, wildlife and its habitat is better off because of us, not because of some "vegan", not because of PETA nor HSUS ... and that is also a FACT .......

From: Bill Obeid
24-Mar-18
Ceart..... the picture of the deer you posted offends a true Bowhunter as much as it offends any human being.

That picture sickens me ....just as all the maimed and dead animals that our vehicles strike every day.

I guess we should go back to riding horses to avoid all the auto deaths of animals... oh wait.... that’s cruel and unusual punishment to the horse ! Right?

Pat .... please end this !!! It’s run it’s course.

24-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher: I have already pointed out that veganism is about not harming animals as far as is possible and practical. Thus my quarrel is not with the Inuit. I have already pointed out that veganism is not a religion, and that I'm not here to preach it, but will defend it. This is by far the darkest place on the net I've ever visited. I'm as eager to leave as you are to be rid of me.

Tonybear61:

The White & Hall paper you raised is behind a paywall. Have you read it? You've declared your lack of interest in continuing the conversation, so we needn't delve into any of the hundreds of papers documenting the shocking impact of meat production on the environment. But in the study you've cited- “Nutritional and greenhouse gas impacts of removing animals from US agriculture,”White and Hall assert that agricultural GHG emissions would fall by (only) around 1/3, because although the great majority of agriculture GHG emission are from animal agriculture - there would be mountains of decaying grain if there were suddenly no animals to consume them. That's bananas. Obviously America's transition to veganism would have to be a process; not a Twilight Zone episode.

It postulates a future without animal agriculture, but where crops are still grown to feed all those billions of animals that aren't there. That is, the single most influential aspect of livestock on US agriculture: land use for feed crops- is not factored into the study.

It asserts that switching to "least-cost" plant-based diets would fail to meet the nation's nutritional requirments. Well, of course.But who would expect anything else? The study has not been well received. “[We] could yield a better nutrient profile if we do restructure the land use,” noted Joan Sabate, a nutritionist at Loma Linda University in California. Mario Herrero, an agricultural researcher at the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation in St. Lucia, Australia, also thinks the team’s estimate of reductions in greenhouse gas emissions may be low. That’s because the study didn’t take into account how animal-free diets would affect imports, which make up a large part of the U.S. meat market. If Americans stop importing meat, it could lead to a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions in the countries that produce it, like Brazil, he says. " The Camp Ripley study is also problematic. All of the 'Successful' hunters who partook of the study had their results included. 40% of the unsuccessful hunters had their results omited. The wounding rates of this category of hunters is not included in the study's conclusion, and is enough to bring the results more in line with the wounding rates found by the 1984 Minnesota Department of Natural Resources study (54%), Minnesota Department of Natural Resources Quarterly Progress Report 1947(50%)

Minnesota Department of Natural Resources Quarterly Progress Report from Camp Ripley, July 15, 1959, (59%)

Causey, M.K., Kennamer, J.E., Logan, J. and Chapman, 1978 bowhunting in Alabama and South Carolina (50%)

Westcott, G. and Peyton, R.B. 1986 report for Michigan (50%)

Langenau, E.E. and Aho, R.W., 1983 Midwestern States (55%)

But I get where you're coming from. "Don’t talk to anyone about wounding animals, especially in public places or among non-hunters... If you videotape your hunts, don’t show bloody kill scenes, rough handling of animals and animals struggling, kicking or quivering as they go down, to non-hunters or anti-hunters." - Larry D. Jones Western Bowhunter Magazine 1991

" Our sport can’t stand forever in the face of growing hatred. Archers must work to counteract that sentiment and build bowhunting in a positive light. The first step should be obvious. Don’t brag about hitting and losing animals. ... There’s nothing honorable about hitting and losing an animal; it just means you screwed up. Don’t brag about it. Just shut up. " -Dwight Schuh, Bowhunting Magazine 1989

elk yinzer: I do not support gay conversion therapy, Elk. Please link or tell me more about the hunter gene.

Scoot: Where the map and fact mismatch

I will burn the map.

-Alasdair Roberts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUUko9rOw5Q)

Ambush: You're a balloon.

From: JTV
24-Mar-18
again with its stupid crap... this is all it has ... nothing but gibberish and tripe... the rantings of a full blown lunatic animal right activist ..... I'll toss an extra steak on the grill for you tonight... and then feed it to my dog ...

From: Pigsticker
24-Mar-18
What a waste of a perfectly good mind. To go against nature to make an omnivore into a herbivore and then try to legitimize it by condemning acts against anything that they choose not to eat is absurd. Kill and eat, survival of the fittest thrives off of this concept and all of these dark minded Bowsiters spend exponentially more time, money, and energy on nature than you and your beta males. You are an idealistic malcontent that is expending huge amounts of brainpower on a false premise. We celebrate animal life far more than you and your counterparts. when we do lose an animal it is not a talking point and I bet we suffer far more than you and your ilk. You need us to kill because it validates you and your purpose.

From: Tonybear61
24-Mar-18

Tonybear61's embedded Photo
Eye poke
Tonybear61's embedded Photo
Eye poke
So many flawed vegan study references to look at , so little time as its now the season for shed hunting and scouting turkey season areas....Plus trout fishing opens up in about 20 days.

From personal experiences it’s pretty clear that non-vegetarians(hunters in particular) are more often at the receiving end of hostility from vegetarians, as we see throughout the comments on this subject. Reality is being denied housing, to being threatened with eviction, and being lynched, meat eaters are more vulnerable in places like India than they are violent. Some of the oldest traditional communities on earth, like the Adivasis, Aborigines, Native Americans, and Inuits practice hunting, but are remarkably peaceful and live in harmony with nature. On the other hand fervent propagators of vegetarianism, like those from the khakhi chaddi brigade are guilty of violence against fellow humans and also supportive of cruel practices like jallikatu, wherein animals are tortured just for sport and nonsensical superstitious beliefs. In fact, mass killing and brutal warfare only emerged with the birth of agriculture around 10,000 years ago. Bowhunting predates that by many, many, years....

Again if vegan antis would just read the text , take some civics lessons...

Continuing with this post is making my eyes sore, just like being poked with a sharp stick.

From: Ambush
24-Mar-18
Quote: “Ambush: You're a balloon.”.

Haha! And somebody wishes they could be the “prick” that blows me up!!

24-Mar-18
This is by far the darkest place on the net.......the things you say discredit you more and more each time you post. Its comical at this point....

From: David A.
24-Mar-18

David A.'s embedded Photo
David A.'s embedded Photo
Ceart states: "we needn't delve into any of the hundreds of papers documenting the shocking impact of meat production on the environment."

Yes, meat production can certainly be harmful to the environment...but this is a hunting forum and wild game is part of the environment and coadapted to the environment AND usually necessary to other biotic elements of the environment. So the question really should be is hunting helpful or harmful to the animals which are hunted?

...This was the question Aldo Leopold asked in defining whether something was good or not in regard to life and the environment, Have you read his books and do you even know who he was? One of the fathers of the conservation movement and the land ethic in N. America. Just happened to be a bowhunter.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ethics-environment-focus-aldo-leopolds-land-ethic-lisa-andrews

Why don't you apply this question to the issues of crop and vegetable production in this country as well as to the world at large? You are a killer and polluter yourself and fail to acknowledge this or to the huge evironmental damages that ensue from agricultural production. It is not hunting which is producing acidification of the oceans, destruction of the rain forests, and the spreading of pesticides into the tissues of almost all humans and animals.

Most hunters on this site have paid for hundreds if not many thousands of dollars in wildlife conservation habitat thru their license fees over the years. Most vegans have donated zip to wildlife conservation and habitat. Zero, zip, nada. You seem to be totally uneducated on the subject of hunting and conservation as well.

You claim various books are on your reading list, that's great then get educated. And you might want to get the view point of the native peoples because for the most part you can be sure you will be considered to be "alienated man". Why? Are they wrong? You are pointing your finger at us but most of your fingers are really pointing back at you...

Beware the severe danger to life on earth from man's alienation from food (will you ever be responsible for a single meal in your entire life other than paying for it?).

...Beware alienated man.

From: TD
24-Mar-18
"This is by far the darkest place on the net I've ever visited."

Ahhhh..... the hypocrisy is strong with this one Obi-Wan......

We've been very tolerant, even after it became clear your purpose was to troll the site to harass and disrupt as much as possible. In reality we continue to be tolerant. No one has threatened anyone in any way, shape or form..... only vehemently disagreed with your positions AND your purpose for even being here. Your stated purpose is disingenuous at best.

OTOH..... the REAL darkness exists right under your nose, it is you...... and that sickness has been directed at hunters from you and yours...... not comedic labeling or jokes..... real physical threats directed at them and their family. Violent threats to human beings (I know.... you hate humans too.....) But in your hypocritical little world..... that sick disturbed action is justified. Darkness indeed..... hypocrite.....

You people are sad. You are the very definition of "none so blind as those who will not see...." Human beings eat meat, just as any other predator does. It is the vegan that is the exception to the rule, not the norm. That is an unarguable fact. There likely will never be a time where it becomes illegal to eat meat, as it is physiologically some of the best nutrition available, especially for growing minds and bodies. Again, unarguable fact. Lean wild game free of additives and chemicals..... better yet.

As long as meat is a part of the human diet, hunters will hunt. You and yours.... can go pound sand..... or gather or shop or whatever it is you do..... I couldn't care less.... just go.

From: David A.
24-Mar-18
So, looking to the future, because like it or not the future is coming...in the year 2555, if man is still alive, and your side won, we will be eating algae meals (very efficient), where will the wild animals be? Mostly gone as our numbers grew unchecked and our connection to the wild became extinct.

A little essay from the perspective of wildlife by Paul Shepard:

A MESSAGE FROM THE OTHERS

From: The Forest, The Sea, The Desert, The Prairie

Dear Primate P. Shepard and Interested Parties:

We nurtured the humans from a time before they were in the present form. When we first drew around them they were, like all animals, secure in a modest niche. Their evident peculiarities were clearly higher primate in their obsession, social status, and personal identity. In that respect they had grown smart, subtle, and devious, committed to a syndrome of tumultuous, aseasonal, erotic, hierarchic power.

Like their nearest kin, they had elevated a certain kind of attention to a remarkable acuity which made them caring, protective, mean, and nasty in the peculiar combination of squinched facial feature and general pettiness of monkeys.

In ancient savannas we slowly teased them out of their chauvinism. In our plumage we gave them aesthetics. In our courtships we tutored them in dance. In the gestures of antlered heads we showed them ceremony and the power of the mask. In our running hooves we revealed the secret of grain. As meat we courted them from within.

As foragers, their glance shifted a little from corms and rootlets, from the incessant bickering and scuffling of their inherited social introversion. They began looking at the horizon, where some of us were both danger and greater substance.

At first it was just a nudge–food stolen from the residue of lion kills, contended for with jackals and vultures, the search for hidden newborn gazelles, slow turtles, and eggs. We gradually became for them objects of thought, of remembering, telling, planning, and puzzling us out as the mystery of energy itself.

We tutored them from the outside. Dancing us, they began to see in us performances of their ideas and feelings. We became the concreteness of their own secret selves. We ate them and were eaten by them and so taught them the first metaphor of their frantic sociality: the outerness of themselves, and ourselves as their inwardness.

As a bequest of protein we broke the incessant round of herbivorous munching, giving them leisure. This made possible the lithe repose of apprentice predation and a new meaning for rumination, freeing them from the drudgery of browsing and the grip of relentless interpersonal strife. Bringing them into omnivorousness, we transformed them forever and they entered the game as a different player.

Not that they abandoned their appetite for greens and fruits, but enlarged it to seeds and meat, and to the risky landscapes of the mind. The savanna or tundra was essential to this tutorial, as a spaciousness open to infinite strategies of pursuit and escape, stretching the senses to their most distant reference. Their thought was invited to a new kind of executorship, incorporating remembrance and planning, to parallels between themselves and the Others and to words-our names-that enabled them to share images and ideas.

Having been committed in this way, first as food and then as the imagery of a great variety of events and processes, from signs in dreams to symbols in metaphysics, we have accompanied humans ever since. Having made them human, we continue to do so individually, and now serve more and more in therapeutic ways, holding their hands, so to speak, as they kill our wildness.

As slaves we stay close. As something to “pet” and to speak to, someone to be there and need them, to be their first lesson in otherness, we have shared their homes for ten thousand years. They have made that tie a bond. From the private home we have gone out to the wounded and lonely, to those yearning for unqualified devotion–to hospitals, hospices, homes for the aged, wards of the sick, the enclaves of the handicapped and retarded, and prison.

All that is well enough, but it involves only our minimal, domesticated selves, not our wild and perfect forms. It smells of dependency.

They still do not realize that they need us, thinking that we are simply one more comfort or curiosity. We have not regained the central place in their thought or meaning at the heart of their ecology and philosophy. Too often we are merely physical reality, mindless passion and brutality, or abstract tropes and symbols.

Sometimes we have to be underhanded. We slip into their dreams, we hide in the language, disguised in allusion, we mask our philosophical role in “nature aesthetics,” we cavort to entertain. We wait in children’s books, in pretty pictures, as burlesques in cartoons, as toys, designs in the very wallpaper, as rudimentary companion or pets.

We are marginalized, trivialized. We have sunk to being objects, commodities, possessions. We remain meat and hides, but only as a due and not as sacred gifts. They have forgotten how to learn the future from us, to follow our example, to heal themselves with our tissues and organs, forgotten that just watching our wild selves can be healing. Once we were the bridges, exemplars of change, mediators with the future and the unseen.

Their own numbers leave little room for us, and in this is their great misunderstanding. They are wrong about our departure, thinking it to be a part of their progress instead of their emptying. When we have gone they will not know who they are.

Supposing themselves to be the purpose of it all, purpose will elude them. Their world will fade into an endless dusk with no whippoorwill to call the owl in the evening and no thrush to make a dawn.

–The Others

From: JB
24-Mar-18
“I'm as eager to leave as you are to be rid of me.”

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

You have been shoveling your shallowness since March 12th and then you spew that?? You can leave at any time.

25-Mar-18
JB: ...touché. It's true. I came here merely to insert an objection into this sorry record of support for Ms Leqve. I'll take my scalps and go.

From: Ambush
25-Mar-18
“A psychological process Oakley terms “empathic distress” can then lead to a pathological altruism as a means of relieving one's own distress by helping—or giving the appearance of helping—others, including animals. One of Oakley’s key points is that the need to feel good is so strong it subverts the moral discipline to evaluate whether any good is actually achieved. Feeling good becomes more important than doing good. Compassion becomes weaponized.”

Go, but realize you counted no coup, took no scalps, nor have any trophies for your wall. Your hunt was a total failure.

From: JTV
25-Mar-18
Once again a liberal animal rights activist proves that without a doubt "Liberalism IS a mental disorder" ... thanks for playing ... dont let the door hit ya ..

From: Bowbender
25-Mar-18
"I'll take my scalps and go"

Don't flatter yourself, honey.

From: BIG BEAR
25-Mar-18
Bye Felicia.........

From: David A.
25-Mar-18
Well Cearts I'm never sure 100% I'm right and I suggest you have doubts as well about a very big subject that involves many issues not apparent to many. Overall, I know there are substantial values in primitivism. We belong inside the circle of Nature, not outside it...man will never find lasting happiness if he is too far from that...

From: LUNG$HOT
26-Mar-18
LMFAO! Thanks Bowbender for the laugh, much needed! Couldn’t have said it better!

From: JTV
04-Apr-18

JTV's Link
oooopsie... an Iranian VEGAN animal rights activist goes berserk and shoots up the YouTube HQ's .... Soooo, its OK to shoot and MURDER humans... talking about being whacked out and mentally deficient ... Yup... "Liberalism IS a serious mental disorder" ...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/04/youtube-shooter-self-described-as-vegan-bodybuilder-claimed-censorship-before-rampage.html

From: Bill Obeid
04-Apr-18
Cert wrote in one of her earlier posts that...

“ I'd be okay with people consensually hunting each other”

Basically the definition of war.

Possibly humankind’s most Egregious act. I can think of a no less evolved position. If you find killing animals for food barbaric..... how can you justify killing human beings. Well, I guess I can think of a few inst instances where it’s justified

I write this with a prayer that this thread is finished and she won’t return..

From: Dutch oven
04-Apr-18
Jeff, "Liberalism IS a mental disorder". I, and a lot of others on here, lean toward the liberal side of things for various reasons. I eat as much wild meat as anyone here, trap more than most, and utilize everything I can from the wild. Choose your words carefully....we're in this together.

From: JTV
05-Apr-18
in the world of politics, liberals are the enemy of this country ... period .... just being a confessed liberal who hunts and own firearms shows how messed up ones mind is .. little liberals(democrats) vote for big liberals(democrats), big liberals(democrats) want to do away with the 2A and gun ownership, stop hunting, allow open borders, gays in my military, tax the hell out of you, regulate business so it cant function, screw up our schools, screw with the Constitution, hell, the list is long, it sure isnt conservatives that want this crap ... if you want to discuss politics, go to the CF, not here on the main page.....

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