Help, guided hunt nightmare
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
astrovan2487 16-Sep-17
Overland 16-Sep-17
butcherboy 16-Sep-17
deserthunter 16-Sep-17
Ole Coyote 16-Sep-17
Medicinemann 16-Sep-17
md5252 16-Sep-17
WV Mountaineer 16-Sep-17
kellyharris 16-Sep-17
Ucsdryder 16-Sep-17
Buskill 16-Sep-17
kscowboy 16-Sep-17
Deertick 16-Sep-17
kscowboy 16-Sep-17
PECO 16-Sep-17
drycreek 16-Sep-17
Ucsdryder 16-Sep-17
drycreek 16-Sep-17
petedrummond 16-Sep-17
ryanrc 16-Sep-17
astrovan2487 16-Sep-17
Fulldraw1972 16-Sep-17
ground hunter 16-Sep-17
APauls 16-Sep-17
kellyharris 16-Sep-17
kadbow 16-Sep-17
ahunter55 17-Sep-17
petedrummond 17-Sep-17
kellyharris 17-Sep-17
Thornton 17-Sep-17
astrovan2487 17-Sep-17
petedrummond 17-Sep-17
astrovan2487 17-Sep-17
astrovan2487 17-Sep-17
LBshooter 17-Sep-17
LBshooter 17-Sep-17
kellyharris 17-Sep-17
SixLomaz 17-Sep-17
donnybowhunter 17-Sep-17
PECO 17-Sep-17
NEBucks 17-Sep-17
ArrowTempest 17-Sep-17
Fulldraw1972 17-Sep-17
Bill Obeid 17-Sep-17
TreeWalker 17-Sep-17
LBshooter 17-Sep-17
LBshooter 17-Sep-17
Franklin 17-Sep-17
astrovan2487 17-Sep-17
EmbryOklahoma 17-Sep-17
Thornton 18-Sep-17
No Mercy 18-Sep-17
Ollie 18-Sep-17
Fuzzy 18-Sep-17
Fulldraw1972 18-Sep-17
Fuzzy 18-Sep-17
Glunt@work 18-Sep-17
keepemsharp 18-Sep-17
astrovan2487 18-Sep-17
PECO 18-Sep-17
bfisherman11 18-Sep-17
Rut Nut 18-Sep-17
Redheadtwo 18-Sep-17
glittergoat 18-Sep-17
Candor 18-Sep-17
Ucsdryder 18-Sep-17
Bowguy 18-Sep-17
txhunter58 18-Sep-17
astrovan2487 19-Sep-17
Glunt@work 19-Sep-17
TD 19-Sep-17
Quinn @work 19-Sep-17
Tracker 19-Sep-17
Pope125 19-Sep-17
KJC 19-Sep-17
Ken Moody Safaris 19-Sep-17
PECO 19-Sep-17
astrovan2487 19-Sep-17
kellyharris 19-Sep-17
LBshooter 19-Sep-17
Rut Nut 19-Sep-17
Bill Obeid 19-Sep-17
Bou'bound 19-Sep-17
deerhunter72 19-Sep-17
WV Mountaineer 19-Sep-17
kellyharris 19-Sep-17
Rut Nut 19-Sep-17
deerhunter72 19-Sep-17
petedrummond 19-Sep-17
kellyharris 19-Sep-17
LBshooter 19-Sep-17
petedrummond 19-Sep-17
Ambush 19-Sep-17
Velvet Muley 19-Sep-17
kellyharris 19-Sep-17
Bowriter 19-Sep-17
Surfbow 19-Sep-17
Bigpizzaman 19-Sep-17
SERBIANSHARK 19-Sep-17
Ace 19-Sep-17
Bigpizzaman 19-Sep-17
EmbryOklahoma 19-Sep-17
kellyharris 19-Sep-17
kellyharris 19-Sep-17
JayG@work 19-Sep-17
Bigpizzaman 20-Sep-17
Huntcell 20-Sep-17
Fuzzy 25-Sep-17
Ucsdryder 25-Sep-17
LINK 25-Sep-17
PECO 25-Sep-17
Rut Nut 25-Sep-17
LINK 25-Sep-17
GhostBird 25-Sep-17
IdyllwildArcher 25-Sep-17
Glunt@work 25-Sep-17
Pintail 26-Sep-17
Grasshopper 26-Sep-17
Bullshooter 26-Sep-17
PECO 26-Sep-17
WV Mountaineer 26-Sep-17
Fulldraw1972 26-Sep-17
Surfbow 26-Sep-17
Quinn @work 27-Sep-17
astrovan2487 28-Sep-17
astrovan2487 28-Sep-17
From: astrovan2487
16-Sep-17
Really looking for advice on what to do if anything can be done at this point. I will not publicly name the outfitter untill he has again refused any kind of refund. Here is some of the background information. My husband and I booked a combo deer/antelope/turkey bow hunt with an outfitter in Nebraska last minute and didnt look into the outfitter enough. First day showed up and the guy was very secretive about things, very odd and didnt want us talking to anyone around the ranch or in town. After just one day with this guy he had several irrational outbursts, it was obvious to me that he was emotionally unstable and I tried my best to avoid him in camp and just be cordial. Extremely negative and controlling, everyone around his camp and all his past hunters were inferior and stupid according to him, felt like a prison, if he lost sight of us in camp he would ask where the other was, stating he was worried we would screw up his stands nearby. Before booking the hunt we told the guy we wanted a spot and stalk hunt but it was obvious he wanted us in blinds and stands most of the hunt once we got there. After politely suggesting we try spot and stalk several times he got defensive and downright verbally abusive and by day 3 he was making direct insults at my husband and trying to make me look like an idiot with everything I said. Day 4 we finally are going to try spot and stalk, he screams and cusses at us right before getting out of the truck to attempt a stalk and our nerves are completely shot. He wants both me and my husband to shoot at a mule deer at the same time, at 50 yards in high wind, my husband already explained he wants me to have first shot at a deer but guide does not listen. I go to take the shot and deer I want to shoot is laying down with no ethical shot, I bah and get him to stand up broadside at which time the guide starts screaming " NO NO NO YOU F***ED UP" and continues cussing at me. I had no idea what was wrong and deer ran off before I shot. We were furious and that afternoon on the 4th day of a 9 day hunt my husband asks the man for a partial refund and to just leave, the guide gets defensive and takes a step at him then backs off, refusing any kind of refund, completely content with himself for "giving you a shot opportunity". At this point we are actually scared of the guy and realize that without cell reception for miles and are on an extremely remote ranch that we need to get the hell out. We tell him the next morning that we are going to sleep in because we dont feel well and secretly pack up and leave, at this point we are both worried he will slash our tires or something and do god knows what. Is there anything that we can do at this point to get some of our money back from this mental case?

From: Overland
16-Sep-17
Sorry you had a nightmare "hunt." Report him to the state outfitting commission and the better business bureau. If he refuses a refund, which seems likely, post reviews with his name on every hunting site you can find.

From: butcherboy
16-Sep-17
First off let me just say that I do not like confrontation but it sometimes is necessary. I would in no way shape or form allow anyone to talk to my wife or treat her with such disrespect. I think the best thing for you to do is leave and report him. Not just to the state outfitting organization but also to the police for harassment and feeling that you may be in danger. It's obvious that he has done this many times before with no one reporting him. Good luck and be safe!

From: deserthunter
16-Sep-17
I would talk to the local sheriff also. Sounds to me like the guy is up to some shady business. And also if he threatened you in any way file a complaint. Also all tags in Neb are a draw so deer tags you could maybe get. Antelope tags Im not so sure. You might have hunting without a liscense.

From: Ole Coyote
16-Sep-17
Prsonally I would have kicked his ass , probably put him in the hospital with a good beating. I realize such actions rarely prove anything but as a Marine I just won't take such bullshit siting down. Posty your review here and also in every place you can find aything about hunting! Send him a copy of your review first asking for a refund explain it is his last chance before you go public ! I doubt you will ever get a penny but hopefully you can create enough fuss to put him out of business! Good luch hope things get better for you.

From: Medicinemann
16-Sep-17
Based on his behavior, and his actions, to delay exposing him simply gives him more time to deceive others, as well.....because it certainly doesn't seem probable (or consistent with previous behavior) that he is going to give any refund.

From: md5252
16-Sep-17
Medicinemann x2

16-Sep-17
He isn't going to give you a refund no matter what, at this point. Your chance to obtain any kind of reimbursement went out the window when you two left without some kind of mutual end to the confrontation. Why on earth you wouldn't be screaming his name is beyond me at this point. You must truly be a non confrontational individual. God Bless

From: kellyharris
16-Sep-17
X3 Medicinemann!

Also I understand there are many types of personalities in every human and no 2 are alike. I am the type who takes zero bullshit from anyone even at age 51! I will say this your hubby handled it correctly and completely opposite as I would have. But then again that's my personality.

I have only made one vow to God about another human being and that is my wife. I will LOVE, HONOR, CHERISH, PROTECT, RESPECT, & STAY FAITHFUL to my wife for the rest of my life. That whole protect part has had me talking to the LAW more than one in the past 23 years.

Had he talked to my wife and cursed at her I would need a new Mathews because my Creed would have been wrapped around his head.

I wasn't there and I don't know your hubby but you seem extremely rational and I am willing to bet you handled it 99.9999% better than I would have

On a last note I would not hesitate to give him an outfitter review and plaster his name and your conditions on every single social media out there.

At this point hurt it where it hurts him most. His pocket book. When people google his name or outfit they will see your story!

With him being such a dick and already refusing refund I think you are never getting a refund.

My next thought with him being so secretive I tend to (assume) he may not be registered or licensed or have business insurance? I would contact the State Attorney General and see if he is licensed with the state? If you give them a written letter they are obligated by law to investigate him within 30 days. Well in Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana they are. I would assume Nebraska is the same?

Regardless and good luck with this nightmare.

From: Ucsdryder
16-Sep-17
Amazing how many people would want to fight somebody who sounds unstable. Chances of him having a weapon are extremely high. Then it turns into "officer we got in a verbal altercation and that guy attacked me so I defended myself and killed him." Guess what...now your wife is a widow because of the tough guy mentality. There's a time for defending yourself, don't get me wrong but since nobody was there telling this lady her husband should have fought the guy seems a little wrong.

Btw, I agree with previous posters. You aren't getting your money back. You could let him know your grievances and that you plan on posting on every hunting site you know of if he doesn't want to make it right...or just post his name everywhere you can and save other people the same fate

From: Buskill
16-Sep-17
Without question speak with local law enforcement and tell them it's not just a " money thing ". Let them know you were actually scared this person would harm you ( assuming that's accurate ). Long term , start wrapping your mind around the fact that you may have to give someone Hell right back in their face and take up for yourself . You'll be glad you did .

From: kscowboy
16-Sep-17
Maybe he was just taking-out his frustration for how God-awful his Cornhuskers Football Team is this season on you all?

From: Deertick
16-Sep-17
Cheap shot, kscowboy!

From: kscowboy
16-Sep-17
Someone had to play that card!

On a serious note, who in the heck gets in fights after they are out of college? That is a legitimate question. Only immature idiots who don't realize they are fighting someone who possibly has nothing to lose and it could make a very tragic turn of events for their life going forward.

From: PECO
16-Sep-17
Do not give the ass a chance to make it right. He had his chance, he is a bully. Post his name. Take him down with the internet. Do notify local law enforcement about his actions. Also contact the local wildlife officer, the guy may be running a illegit operation. Option "B" is to have you husband go back with a few buddies and give him a bully beat down.

From: drycreek
16-Sep-17
Well, I admit to being old, and old folks were brought up differently I guess, but I'm with Kelly. No way would that sucker have cursed at my wife or myself without nursing some bruises and dislocated lips. I have never, ever stood still for a cussing and won't until my dying day, nor will anyone cuss my family.

However, I realize not everyone believes in that solution, so follow the second best advice. Do all you can do to bring him down through the other sources mentioned.

And ks, I'm neither immature, nor an idiot, and I didn't go to college, I went to work. I have been very successful both at making a living and dissuading jerks from cussing me. I did both with my two hands.

From: Ucsdryder
16-Sep-17
And dry creek, what do you do if the guy is younger, bigger, and stronger? Take a beating? End up in the hospital? Worse? What if the guy has a gun. You ready to die because he said something offensive?

Violence should always be a last resort. Amazing how often it's the first reaction on these threads.

From: drycreek
16-Sep-17
^^^^^^^ Almost anybody is younger and stronger than me anymore, but I'm still not gonna take a cussing from anybody. The second paragraph of my first post is for the meek.

Now the thread has been hijacked and it's partly my fault. My apoligies for that.

From: petedrummond
16-Sep-17
Unless you have a get out of jail free card violence isnt good. In rural areas the sheriff may be his brother.

From: ryanrc
16-Sep-17
Saying you would fight isn't a great idea. No need to get shot. If you didn't like the way he was treating you, just leave. I doubt you will get a penny back. And my guess is he will have a completely different story than yours. Do an outfitter review and let us know who the person was. This site may have people who know of his reputation and can confirm your assertions. P.S. I know the OP didn't suggest violence, that part is intended for those on this thread that suggested such.

From: astrovan2487
16-Sep-17
Guy did have an ar type gun with him but I am never unarmed so that didn't bother me so much. Only reason I knew that was because after glassing a bunch of deer one morning he attempted to shoot a coyote right around the deer. This coming from a guy so anal he would not let us step 5 yards outside of camp without him for fear of spooking the game. I was more concerned with him messing with our food or truck something sneaky and cowardly like that. Normally I am very confrontational but this guy had us by the balls so to speak so we were trying to make the best of it. Looking at his website there are no referrals and most of the few hunter pics the hunters do not look happy. I would be astonished if no one else had a similar experience with this sociopath.

From: Fulldraw1972
16-Sep-17
I am with everyone. I would out this guy big time. I am also curious where he outfits out of. Your husband sounds like a very calm headed person. Happy to hear that. I know if I was in his shoes me and the guy would have been in the dirt. Win loose or draw that's where we would have ended up.

On a side note Deserthunter Ne deer and antelope tags are OTC for archery.

16-Sep-17
no offense but use a paragraph. hard to read

From: APauls
16-Sep-17
I'm curious about the guys that say they'd give him a beat down after the cussing how many people you give beat downs to? The internet is full of guys who will fight anyone, but when it comes right down to it most often their mind prevails

From: kellyharris
16-Sep-17
Apuals been a few times as most recent as last October.

LMAO I sure as hell didn't win but I didn't lose either. One of the guys lost a moler and the other guy had his whole left side swelled up bad and a busted upper lip. I had a hole all the way thru my bottom lip. I was literally sore for 4-5 days. 8 cruisers came rolling in the parking lot. I had my shirt torn off of me and they asked how old I was I replied 50. They laughed and said well you did damn good for a 50 year old.

They listened to all three of our stories including my wife Micheles they asked if I wanted to press charges? I said NO just three young lads having a good time. Before I left I said let me look at the guys truck because 2 on one is some bullshit and I will catch one of them in the playground by himself.

Luckily for me as old as I am I have never seen that truck again.

On a side note my goal is to never get into another fight again. Going on 52 there is a time to hang the gloves up.

The time before that was about 3 years ago? My ex brother in law, I broke my hand on his face but he literally looked like the elephant man when I was done. Best part it was right in the middle of the street in Historic Loveland. (Nobody and I mean Nobody lays a hand and especially beats the living hell out of any women in my family and not get a severe payback)! Funny part his nickname was BULL because he was supposedly as bad a a pitbull or a bull in a corral????

He was just a loudmouth women beater bully.

I said it in my original post and I will say it again, Astrovan husband handled it correctly. I just handle things different perhaps its my generation?

From: kadbow
16-Sep-17
Does the outfitter own the ranch, if not let the ranch owner know what is going on. If he has any brains he will boot the guy off before he ends up in a lawsuit.

From: ahunter55
17-Sep-17
1-Contact the Local Sheriff/Police of his town/County & tell them "your" story. 2-Keep all your correspondence with this guy & Lic./tags & give this to the Local Game Warden (If he has a history, Warden will probably already know ). 3-Make a report to the Game warden too. Once local law enforcement gets involved you will find out from them IF you can pursue further for refund. 4-Make a outfitters report to Neb. outfitters assn. IF there is one & give them the story also.. Make your case with everyone. Granted, most men would "want" to handle the situation in a little tougher way but then, most men talk a lot. You "did" the right thing & if he is unstable contacting authorities will be the best recourse. Good Luck.

From: petedrummond
17-Sep-17
From reading the other posts obviously you were hunting illegally without proper tags and he had to make sure you didnt get anything. That explains all his actions and he succeeded. You can report him but you may get arrested too. Conundrum.

From: kellyharris
17-Sep-17
Bowsite, archerytalk, Snapchat, instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, plus a few dozen other websites all with his name in the heading followed up by your story should do the trick.

From: Thornton
17-Sep-17
As was stated above, you must be a mild individual. During college, I worked briefly once for an outfitter that left the state without paying me. I went to his lease and took $1500 worth of new Gorilla stands in payment....after I sent him several return, receipt, certified invoices. He threw a fit and called the cops but they never even came to my door. After that, I guided 4 of his clients and their friends that more than made up for my losses. As nervous as this guy sounds, you may have been hunting on a lease he didn't have. Or, he may not have been a licensed guide at all. It would do well to do plenty of research on the guy.

From: astrovan2487
17-Sep-17
Pretty sure all licenses were legal and he did have a contract we signed so would leave me to believe that he was legit. We have gotten all the landowner's names that will be contacted to let them know the nice stuff he said about them and what he did to us. Thanks everyone for the help, he has untill the end of the day today to get back to us and if there is no contact by then I'll post his information.

From: petedrummond
17-Sep-17
Did you actually have the licenses in your possession and do you still have them?

From: astrovan2487
17-Sep-17
Actually, screw this guy he's had enough time to respond

Balancing Arrow Outfitters Dana Bokelman Crawford, Nebraska

He goes to the Harrisburg Outdoor show in PA and some other outdoor shows. I live about an hour from Harrisburg so if he shows up this year I'll make it my job to make sure everyone that he talks to gets the truth. This guy talked crap about near everyone he came into contact with at the Harrisburg show last year. Don't waste your f*ing time coming anywhere on the east coast Dana.

From: astrovan2487
17-Sep-17
We have all the licenses still in our possession. Looks to be legit except he did promise turkey hunting the whole hunt but the season did not come in untill the middle of the hunt.

From: LBshooter
17-Sep-17
Well, sorry to hear you had a bad time with a psycho. However, you had no business booking a hunt with a guide without checking/asking for references. I'm sure you have read horror stories before of guides gone wrong, and if you did just a bit if homework you probably would have saved yourselves the nightmare you encountered.

What was the charge for the hunt? Was it a discounted hunt the made you jump so quickly? Mule deer hunts that I've seen generally run 4500 to 7500 per Hunter. No doubt that the guy was guiding illegally, and unfortunately you were the victims. Your not getting my mney back and as mentioned, spread the word to prevent others from getting stung. Definitely show up at any show that this guy will be at and spread the word, other than that there's no other way to get at this guy.

From: LBshooter
17-Sep-17
Well, sorry to hear you had a bad time with a psycho. However, you had no business booking a hunt with a guide without checking/asking for references. I'm sure you have read horror stories before of guides gone wrong, and if you did just a bit if homework you probably would have saved yourselves the nightmare you encountered.

What was the charge for the hunt? Was it a discounted hunt the made you jump so quickly? Mule deer hunts that I've seen generally run 4500 to 7500 per Hunter. No doubt that the guy was guiding illegally, and unfortunately you were the victims. Your not getting my mney back and as mentioned, spread the word to prevent others from getting stung. Definitely show up at any show that this guy will be at and spread the word, other than that there's no other way to get at this guy.

From: kellyharris
17-Sep-17

kellyharris's Link
Here is a link to his Facebook page

From: SixLomaz
17-Sep-17
Free advertising anyone ... lol

17-Sep-17
abusive behavior directed at my wife.... I would have stomped his ass in the ground. end of story.. right or wrong he would have been rocked. I looked him up.. his old ass would never had a chance.

From: PECO
17-Sep-17
Awesome that you gave us his info. Now I am looking forward to an outfitter review!

From: NEBucks
17-Sep-17
I might be wrong about this, but I do not believe guides and outfitters are required to be licensed here in Nebraska. There was a push a few years ago to make that a law, but I am pretty sure that legislation was defeated.

17-Sep-17

From: Fulldraw1972
17-Sep-17

Fulldraw1972's Link
Here is the guys web sight.

Astrovan I sent you a pm. If you and your husband want to go back and hunt on your own I can help you two out. No guide needed. It will be DIY.

From: Bill Obeid
17-Sep-17
I just saw Bokelman and Balancing Arrow Outfitters listed in the back of RMEF's Bugle!

Crawford NE. Rang a bell so I checked it.

17-Sep-17
Sorry to hear of your experience! Some great advice about filing reports and making the info public.

I had a very popular outfitter try to be cute and ask me if I wanted to see nude pictures of my wife that he found on the internet.

Was not surprised after ripping him in front of two other hunters I went home empty handed. His apology turned out to be as worthless as his character.

Lesson learned, move on. Kelly, we should talk again sometime.

From: TreeWalker
17-Sep-17
Set your camera or phone microphone to record some of the outburst sequences. You might be in a two-party state where each party needs to consent but is still good for you to have even if can never use. Much like the difference when police started to have video of DUI arrests that a judge could see rather than mere testimony, sounds like the outfitter may have issues that could ebb and flow so a recording shows the situation as you experienced.

From: LBshooter
17-Sep-17
I'm always a bit cautious when an outfitter won't/don't publish thier rates.

From: LBshooter
17-Sep-17
I'm always a bit cautious when an outfitter won't/don't publish thier rates.

From: Franklin
17-Sep-17
This was actually entertaining listening to the keyboard cowboys.....you 2 did the right thing. Starting a fight or a conflict in ANOTHER state with a RESIDENT of that state is NEVER a good idea. If things are not going your way and you REALLY want to leave...then leave and stop at the local authorities and make a report prior to leaving the state. Then make his life miserable.

From: astrovan2487
17-Sep-17
The hunt price was pretty low...$3400 a person plus licenses. We were planning on hunting Montana but they sold out of their OTC licenses so this guy was our last chance at a hunt with less than a month of planning. He does not have any good or bad reviews that I could find

His reason for giving such a good price was that he had someone cancel last minute. He also admitted to us on the hunt that 2 other hunts canceled last minute this year. The amount of red flags that came up after spending 24 hours with this man were unbelievable.

17-Sep-17
I have to admit, you guys did the right thing by leaving when you did. But... the amount of disrespect would've been tough to handle. I would've avoided physical confrontation, but he would've known that's it's NOT COOL to speak to my wife or myself in that manor. Period.

From: Thornton
18-Sep-17
You'd be surprised how many aren't "keyboard cowboys".

From: No Mercy
18-Sep-17

No Mercy's embedded Photo
No Mercy's embedded Photo
"I love my job"

Whoops.

From: Ollie
18-Sep-17
I don't understand why you let this outfitter bully you around for this long. Clearly you did not check out this outfitter prior to booking which was a major mistake. At this point there is nothing you can do to get your money back. Identify who this outfitter is and post your experience on social media to save others the fate that you suffered. References are not good if people are not willing to openly speak about bad experiences.

From: Fuzzy
18-Sep-17
wow, just wow. I'd suggest posting a link to this thread on his FB page?

From: Fulldraw1972
18-Sep-17
Fuzzy, he can delete the post off his FB page.

From: Fuzzy
18-Sep-17
I realize that, but it will (may) be there for awhile til he sees it ^^

From: Glunt@work
18-Sep-17
Strange story. Hard to not have some bad reviews if this is normal for him. I couldn't find anything.

From: keepemsharp
18-Sep-17
This needs to be put up on the NE bowsite.

From: astrovan2487
18-Sep-17
Hunt Stand is really a great thing...we looked up all the land owners information and called them this morning to let them know what went on and about the psycho that is using their place

He does not even pay anything to the main rancher and he just lets him use the ground for free, several of the ranchers did not even have an idea that he was using their place. All of the ranchers had other hunters that pay to hunt on the ranch. Also the outfitter grossly lied about the ground we could hunt on, said we had 20,000 acres to hunt on and it was more like 2,000. The land owners also found it very interesting that this guy that uses their ground for free talks so lowly of them.

All land owners were completely shocked and we would be surprised that this guy is not kicked off the place.

From: PECO
18-Sep-17
I would be careful. The "psycho" is probably drinking beers with his buddies (the land owners) and they are laughing as they read this thread. It is hard to believe land owners do not know their neighbor is outfitting on their property. Yep I'm paranoid, been screwed a time or two.

From: bfisherman11
18-Sep-17
I noticed he takes VISA, If you happened to have paid that way you can file a dispute with them..

Bill

From: Rut Nut
18-Sep-17
Lyndsey- you and your husband did the right thing. No doubt this guy has a screw loose! And no telling what somebody like that would do!

Makes sense that he did not have permission to guide hunters on that land and that explains why he was acting the way he did.

You are doing the right thing by contacting his neighbors and giving them the heads up! And spreading the word as far and wide as you can to shed light on this Lunatic's antics!

From: Redheadtwo
18-Sep-17
You can only be nice for so long and then nice won't work. Report him to anyone and everyone. Post his name and any of his known cronies. The name of his business.

From: glittergoat
18-Sep-17
NOT addressing this guy would have just further embolden him. Bullies have to punched in the nose sometimes -its the only thing they understand. Good on you for calling the landowners for the "punch" in the nose he deserves. Make him famous!

From: Candor
18-Sep-17
I'll add that i would not have let my ego of wanting to whup the guy put my wife in jeopardy. That is short term, reactionary thinking. You put your wife in jeopardy to satisfy your ego, especially with someone that may cut you and end up with your wife, you have made a colossal mistake.

From: Ucsdryder
18-Sep-17
Good point above. Did you pay with visa? Dispute charges based on promises he didn't come through on and let him work it out. You might end up paying but it'll be a pain for him.

From: Bowguy
18-Sep-17
We had a guy be somewhat similar in Canada on a bear/moose hunt. Guy was a drunk and after 3 days I was gonna bury him. Told him he could keep 200 for the food I ate and I was leaving. The option was pain for him. Told him no check, cash only. He got mouthy and my buddy,an airborne ranger, stepped in and saved him. Let the guy know Joe wouldn't be between us forever and once I got my hands on him there was zero talking happening. He gave me the cash than I turned him in for hunting moose a day early and asking hunters to come with no license, saying he'd find someone to tag an animal. This was New Brunswick. Guy was an idiot and a drunk. He's lucky he gave me the cash. Your husband shoulda taught him manners

From: txhunter58
18-Sep-17
I can assure you that he will not refund any of your money. I would go ahead and file a complaint with his licensing board. Sooner the better, memory is a funny thing. Write down all the details you can remember right now

From: astrovan2487
19-Sep-17
We paid with a check about a month ago, maybe less. Might try calling the bank to see if anything can be done but I doubt it. We figured even if the land owners are his buddies and dont believe us they might think twice when the next person calls them about this guy.

From: Glunt@work
19-Sep-17
I don't think NE requires a specific outfitter license. Whatever else you intend to do to, I would do it and then get busy putting it behind you. It stinks but hunting is too important to let a bad deal like this keep a black cloud over it. He already screwed up enough of your hunting, don't let this tarnish upcoming stuff. The best revenge is living well.

From: TD
19-Sep-17
A good start with the land owners. But need to ramp it up and contact any and all authorities. From whoever controls the guide/outfitter permits, game wardens to the sheriffs office.

Post on any that have reviews, social media, anything and everything. You might possibly save someone else from such a fate. And if you can make life for him a bit more difficult, so much the better.

Never get physical with a psycho. This guy was mentally unbalanced it sounds like. Yeah, bullies need lessons and all that.... but psychos will show up with an AR after having their butts kicked. You guys make the right call. To have slipped out like that, you must have felt concerned for your safety. Trust such feelings. Alot of folks have such feeling about situations and do not act on them, wind up buried in some ditch. Good call indeed.

From: Quinn @work
19-Sep-17
You did the right thing and didn't risk a stupid physical confrontation. It's not worth trying to teach someone a lesson over you and your wife's life. He was obviously unstable.

I always have to wonder about the predictable internet tough guys here. Especially the ones that are 50+ saying they would beat a local up in rural Nebraska and risk the consequences rather than just leaving like you did. Stupid is as stupid does I guess.

Lesson learned. Hope you have a great hunt on your next one.

From: Tracker
19-Sep-17
Love the way people recommend kicking someone 's Arce. While it sounds like a tuff guy there are serious consequences to that. Getting your own Arce kicked is one along with him ending up calling the law. Report him to authorities and use this as a lesson for the future. It's over so best to move on. Life is to short to worry

From: Pope125
19-Sep-17
Where you live at in Pa ??

From: KJC
19-Sep-17
I would've pummeled him into the ground. If he pulled a gun, I would've taken it a way from him, field stripped it and shoved it where the sun don't shine. Than I would've hog tied him and thrown him in the back of my truck. I'd drive him to the town bank and make him take enough money out to give me a full refund. Than I would've driven by his Mommas' house, called her outside and slapped her face for raising such a poor example of a man. But that's just me. I'm tough like that. You can ask my wife.

Seriously, if it went down like you say it did, your first stop should have been the Ne. State Police or Fish and Game. Not Bowsite. At this point your better off putting the word out and then just putting it behind you. Lesson learned. Sorry for your misfortune.

19-Sep-17
Everybody is a tough guy behind the keyboard.

From: PECO
19-Sep-17
"Especially the ones that are 50+ saying they would beat a local up" Lots of guys over 50 these days are in great shape. 50 is the new 30. Just sayin. I get the points about not getting into trouble when you are an outsider far from home. But I bet the guy is disrespectful to and disliked by the locals also.

From: astrovan2487
19-Sep-17
I live in MD right around Hampstead. We called the county sheriff and said he would look into the guy but said this is really a civil matter so don't think much can be done with the authorities.

From: kellyharris
19-Sep-17
I guess re-reading this entire thread I am starting to see why those who have children in their teens and young 20's have kids who need safe spaces and cannot identify what even freaking gender they are!!!

To some of you who think I may have acted stupid or have acted the wrong way if this was me and how I would have handled it?

At the end of the day either his ass got whooped or my ass got whooped regardless I would have left with my head held high and my honor with me!

From: LBshooter
19-Sep-17
Guys, let's review. You go on a hunt that you failed to do your homework on, as far as research of said outfitter. You get there and figure out the guide is a wacko and you finally get upset enough to want to beat him up. You pay a sum of money, let's say for two hunters on a mule deer hunt 5-8 k. Now, you have wasted your hard earn money due to your failure and now you want to beat someone up. So, you beat the tar out the guy, not saying he doesn't deserve it, but after beating his ass you pack up and leave. The guide in the mean time calls police and takes pictures of his injury and when police get there he tells them a story.

I was guiding these hunters and we weren't seeing game and they got upset, I told them it's hunting and they didn't like that, and began to verbally assault me. I told the hunters I would not take such abuse and that if they continued I would end the hunt. Well, they finally took it to far and I ended the hunt, and then they decided to beat me. Well, your driving now, and now behind you is the law, your pulled over and are arrested for assult and battery, and depending upon how badly you beat him, possibly attempted murder.

So , now you have wasted your money for the hunt, regardless whether you were correct or not in beating the guide up you now will have lawyers fees and possibly years of court and travel to and from depending on where the crime was committed. Best case is you walk on the legal side , worse case is your convicted, and jail time a possibility. If you walk, get ready for the civil case whcih you would loose, because an individual swearing at you is not cause to beat them. So between the cost of the hunt, lawyers fees and a civil settlement, let's say 100k mininium, but more likely a lot more. So, is a beat down really worth all that? I know it sounds good to say that you would beat someone up, but I'd expect that from drunk college guys, get real. Word of mouth does more damage to an outfitter than what you could do with a punch or two. Just know that this guide is likely going to loose his land rights and reputation in the area will hurt him more than any punch could ever. The internet John Wayne act gets a bit tiresome, not to offend any John Wayne types.

19-Sep-17
Kelly, You have Morgan to think about. As we get older, we are not any less of a man for making sure we protect who we are responsible for. When it really counts, like your family's safety, sure, you better be ready to do what it takes. Anything short of that may leave your family in a worse position by letting pride do the talking.

By now, we better have already been tested and know how we stack up. JMHO sir!

From: Rut Nut
19-Sep-17
Well said LBshooter and Habitat! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Sometimes the HARD thing to do is show a little restraint and some clear headed thinking! ;-)

From: Bill Obeid
19-Sep-17
Well said Habitat !

From: Bou'bound
19-Sep-17
just because one can does not mean one should

From: deerhunter72
19-Sep-17
Not getting physical with a potential crazy person is absolutely the best thing to do. It could've ended really badly for everyone involved. Most men will protect and defend their honor, and especially their wife's, but a level headed man will never put his wife's well being at risk. In a remote place and on his turf that's exactly what a physical confrontation would have done.

I don't know what to think about all of the guys saying they would've beat the s*** out of the guy. Maybe they would've tried and maybe not. I know as I gotten older my responsibilities have changed. I have a wife and two kids to provide for and I have a state license to do my job that would be at risk with any alteration. Providing for my family is priority 1 for me, not giving payback to someone who deserves it.

19-Sep-17
I'm simply amazed at the number of men who suggest anyone willing to stand up for the right thing, is just experiencing Internet tough guy syndrome.

I got news for you guys that seem to think you got it all figured out. By acting the way he did, I see no other way of taking it then as a threat against my wife and her safety. Mine too. Since we all agree that is a defensible situation, what's the problem? Because at that point, all is fair.

FWIW, the absolute, most determined, driven, crazy induced people I have ever met were those defending their loved ones. And every single one of us is capable of that response.

From: kellyharris
19-Sep-17
First of all I agree 100% on not doing the homework and I would never kick someone's ass over bad business practice. I would have beat his ass if he would have talked to Michele that way that's 100% for sure!

And there are three of us in camp 2 of us saying he punched and assaulted me first. Him saying I just beat his ass for disrespecting my wife! When I broke my hand on ex brother in law I was laughing I told my buddy punch me as hard as you can in the left side of my face so when the police show I can prove he hit me first! Lmao the cops never showed????

This would not have been my first rodeo.

Plus 1M liability policy is on hand in my household.

Guys I told Astrovan they handled it the proper way several post ago.

I am of just a different generation/mindset.

lol perhaps growing up about 400 yards from where the Iron Horseman had a clubhouse makes one think differently?

I said it before and I will say it one more time;

No one, absolutely no one disrespects my wife without them offering a full apology or either he or I ending up with a severe ass whooping.

From: Rut Nut
19-Sep-17
I had no idea we had so many MMA Champions on Bowsite! ;-)

From: deerhunter72
19-Sep-17
LBshooter, you bring up an excellent point. I personally know a guy who IS in the middle of a long drawn out legal case over a physical altercation that took place at least 3 years ago. From what I've been told, it looks like he will avoid jail time, but it's going to cost him big money. I know the other guy got what he deserved, but I'm afraid the cost of it is going to be way too high.

From: petedrummond
19-Sep-17
Hate to break this to you kelly but your policy doesnt cover fistfights. The bsd guy might end up owning your home.

19-Sep-17
Kelly, Your umbrella policy might decline to pay out if they knew of your history making posts like here.

C'mon man! ;)

From: kellyharris
19-Sep-17
Lol

You cannot put a price on honor

From: LBshooter
19-Sep-17
Well Kelly , if your honor is assaulted by some whack job then go right ahead and beat the chit out of him. In the middle of a heated fight things happen like death, and when that happens I hope you get a cell mate whose a lot smaller than you because if not your honor will be assaulted nightly. And what about your wife's honor, how's that going to be when her husband is spending 8-10 for manslaughter and she's on welfare or ? Your liability policy will not policy won't Pay out for a criminal act, maybe you have a special one but last I knew insurance companies don't like paying out claims, and if there's a way to get out from paying it they will. So when your in jail, broke and your family is suffering, at least you'll be able to hold your head up and say my honor is intact at least until later tonight, and no one can swear at me. Lol come on man, you have to be smarter than that, and I assume your an adult and remember the old rhyme your momma told you, it starts out something like, "Sticks and....

From: petedrummond
19-Sep-17
I can im a lawyer.

From: Ambush
19-Sep-17
Well, even though this thread devolved quickly, it's been a great learning tool.

Tho OP now knows:

they are idiots for booking a last minute hunt

completely gullible for trusting an outfitter they haven't known since birth

dumb for not interpreting the immediate future of the hunt after the first five minutes in camp

it's all their own fault!

one of them has no backbone or honour and is certainly no kind of a man.

and several posters here will be getting marriage proposals soon.

From: Velvet Muley
19-Sep-17
"And there are three of us in camp 2 of us saying he punched and assaulted me first."

"When I broke my hand on ex brother in law I was laughing I told my buddy punch me as hard as you can in the left side of my face so when the police show I can prove he hit me first! Lmao the cops never showed???? "

"You cannot put a price on honor"

Ya, I can tell you have honor coming out your AZZ with posts like this. LMAO

From: kellyharris
19-Sep-17
Well velvet Muley I guess that's where you and I differ both scenarios were about honor. I didn't cowardly walk away from my ex bro in law

My ex brother in law 6'1". "225lbs made my 5' sister face look like it went thru a meat tenderizer and he hit my 15 year old niece trying to protect her mother several times.

They were petrified to take legal action!

It took me about a year to run into him so yes it's was about family honor nothing else. The bastard actually spit on me before the first punch but you cannot prove that to a cop. That sorry POS looked like the elephant man when I was done he tagged me twice but zero marks and since it happened in the street in the center of town I was making sure If anything was said it was a scuffle and a judge would throw it out or give us both a few days in the county. Luckily the law didn't show or catch us as we all left.

Like I said as others here have said Disrespect my wife and see what happens?

I am sure Peter can attest that two men fighting both with marks on them it's 99% thrown out in court. It's a he said she said and the judge either fines us both, locks us both up for a few days, or throws it out?

As I said in my first post we all have our own unique personalities that's where we differ!

From: Bowriter
19-Sep-17
(1) You are not likely to get a dime back. (2) First get statements form all other hunters in camp, if any. (3) Contact state guide assoc. if there is one. (4) Contact ranch owner if different. (5) Contact local law enforcement and lodge a formal complaint with documentation to back it up. If this goes to court, it is he said she said unless you have witnesses and will not likely be winnable.

From: Surfbow
19-Sep-17
I played baseball with a kid whose dad was a nice guy, although a bit of a hothead. One day his dad got into a minor road rage situation in a parking lot and ran up to the other driver's window to yell at him, the other guy pulled a gun and killed him without a word. My buddy and his 4 siblings had to grow up without their dad because he escalated a situation where he didn't know all the facts about the other guy. It was awful, I'll never forget it...

From: Bigpizzaman
19-Sep-17
Sorry I only read initial post but if a guide/ outfitter was abusive to my wife he would have crossed a line that would have resulted in physical action. I'm not the toughest guy in the world but some things can't be tolerated. Only Question is why did you wait so long to ask for a refund?

From: SERBIANSHARK
19-Sep-17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXmDLmVkxMw#t=17

Here is the guy. Seems normal.

From: Ace
19-Sep-17
Serb! Good to see you posting again.

From: Bigpizzaman
19-Sep-17
Doesn't look like a tough imposing man to me?

19-Sep-17
Serb only posts when violence is involved anymore. :)

From: kellyharris
19-Sep-17
He has went from visiting Bowsite to following (singing in a truck page)

From: kellyharris
19-Sep-17
Two greatest comments from ever from Bowsite!

1 Boubound = when you're hunt of a lifetime hinges on your equipment do not use equipment with hinges!

2. Serbianshark = Serbian shark is lurking on Bowsite as much As Tom Brady has an air needle lurking in his back pocket!

From: JayG@work
19-Sep-17
Hmmm, kinda interesting thread. I haven't been here much recently. I don't know. I have to tell you, I am not some tough guy, or keyboard commando, but if a guy was coming at me, or started talking $#!t to my wife, there would be an issue. If he moved on me in a threatening way, his actions would be countered and the consequences would have to be sorted out later. Maybe that is because I am over 50 and sorta broken. I can't afford another a$$whipping, so I would really have to hurt the guy to protect myself or my wife.. Since the hunt is past, the only thing you can do is to make others aware of what happened to you and next time do more homework on the next guides.. On another note, I met Kelly and started hunting with him, because I had a screwed up experience with a guide, so you never know, you may be blessed because of the experience. Good luck next time, Jay

From: Bigpizzaman
20-Sep-17
Jay makes sense and I couldn't agree more.

From: Huntcell
20-Sep-17
The basement estrogen level is rising this thread should have been locked!

From: Fuzzy
25-Sep-17
"basement estrogen"?? ^^^

From: Ucsdryder
25-Sep-17
The funny part is it’s all the self proclaimed old guys. Maybe old man strength is something special. Watching the retired generation at my gym I haven’t seen it but according to this thread it sounds like we have our next generation of mma fighters.

From: LINK
25-Sep-17
I'm young and stout enough to hand out a can of @$$ whooping. The deciding factor when I choose to get physical is how much I like their county jail. That usually helps keep things in perspective.

From: PECO
25-Sep-17
Probably 90% of the guys out there starting shit, are writing checks with their mouths that their ass can't cash. I am referring to the guide disrespecting his clients. It does not take an MMA champion to tune them up.

From: Rut Nut
25-Sep-17
Yeah, but usually they have much deeper pockets than mine and the best lawyer!(s) AND will be the first to run to the authorities when they get "tuned up"! ;-)

From: LINK
25-Sep-17
Like I said I prefer my bed and my wife to a jail cell with bubba.

25-Sep-17
No doubt there are some very tough guys on this site. Ex Special Forces, wrestlers etc...

Hopefully those that know would advise if you ever find yourself in a 2 on one again, you better immobilize the first guy you come in contact with. Even the odds is a good start.

I am thankful I do not have to prove to my wife Robin that she married a man of character and honor by still getting in fights in my fifties, LOL! I guess that proves she is a lady who loves me right back!

Maybe we should have an open MMA Bowsite ring fight next meet & greet. Last person in the ring wins. I will be referee for all of you, and explain the rules, of no rules except your own attached body parts.

From: GhostBird
25-Sep-17
... so the guide insults your wife. You deck him with a strong right to the chin. He rolls on his side with his pocket pistol in his hand. Fires three shots that hit you center mass in the chest. You are now dead and your wife is alone with your killer.

25-Sep-17
No offense to the OP, but there's 3 sides to every story. I'm curious what he'd say. Nonetheless, if even 1/2 of what she says is true, that's just no way to treat someone who's paying you for a service, no matter what happens. Even if the OP and her husband were the worst clients. And if you cuss out a man's wife in front of him... you're asking for an ass whooping, right or wrong.

I read these periodic horror stories and every time, it reminds me of one of the benefits of DIY hunting.

From: Glunt@work
25-Sep-17
Last time I was in a real fight (years ago) I got my rear end handed to me. I was outnumbered which helped my pride but not my face. Count me out for the Bowsite MMA brawl. I'm saving my bad knee and other assorted damaged body parts for hunting.

25-Sep-17
Glunt, agree with you, that is why I said I would referee. Momma didn't raise any dummies:)

From: Pintail
26-Sep-17
Physical pain only lasts a few days, financial pain can last a lifetime. If I paid for a hunt and this was the out come, you can bet the ranch I will camp on the door step of every show this guy sets up at. That would be if I were not on the internet telling the world what kind of business he runs.

From: Grasshopper
26-Sep-17
Actually physical pain like broken bones and noses can last a lifetime. You can always make more money. 3400 dollars shouldn't send anyone to bankruptcy court. Forget it, move on, look to the future. Philippians 3:13

From: Bullshooter
26-Sep-17
What if he grabbed your wife by the crotch? Would you beat his ass?

From: PECO
26-Sep-17
? Bullshooter, I think he would beat your ass.

26-Sep-17
To each his own. But, after reading this, its no wonder there are so many rude people in this world. It doesn't take physical violence to hold someone accountable. Just someone not scared that their own shadow might get offended and hurt them.

FWIW, crazy people don't spend a whole lot of time trying to convince you they are crazy. On the other hand, people who spend their time trying to convince you of that are trying to be something they aren't. God Bless

From: Fulldraw1972
26-Sep-17
It's pretty clear the guy was pulling the wool over on the landowners eyes. That's why he freaked out the way he did on at least one incident. The first impression I got was the guy is a blowhard. A guy stands up to him I think he would cower down. There are plenty of ways to call him out on his behavior other then throwing a punch.

Now days I tend to agree with the vast majority here on the violence. I value my freedom more then knocking someones teeth out. 25 years ago I would have broke his jaw or worse and said give me my 3 hots and a cot.

Sure it's easy to be an internet tuff guy. It's also easy to look the other way behind the keyboard. People react different when it's in your face or in your wife's face.

From: Surfbow
26-Sep-17
So here's my problem: The OP has STILL not taken the 5 minutes to go over and post an outfitter report, which would probably be a whole lot more helpful to everybody on the internet than this big, long, bull session...

From: Quinn @work
27-Sep-17
Surfbow he may have posted his review but it does take a few weeks to be posted here on bowsite from experience. Especially when bowsite admin are out hunting it could take longer.

I too hope he submitted a review. Had everyone done this it would of saved me a bad trip with Savage Encounters in Alberta. Unfortunately the only 3 reviews posted here were of his A list clients that all harvested bulls, not the other 80% that didn't and probably had the same experience as me.

27-Sep-17
Quinn, You bring up a concern I have with outfitter reports. People are more likely to post positives, and when a negative, yet fair report is posted too many BS regulars that never used that guide will jump in to attack the poster. This discourages others from posting their true experience. That makes the reports suspect IMHO.

From: astrovan2487
28-Sep-17
I did post a review for this outfitter just now...and it took way more than 5 minutes. Honestly having this man ruin our hunt and virtually steal near $7000 from us I needed a break from thinking about it a few days.

From: astrovan2487
28-Sep-17
...is there anyway to close this topic? I really just wanted to get the word out on this guy and this thread has really gotten out of hand.

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