Tonka's law
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Jack Harris 13-Oct-17
Scar Finga 13-Oct-17
Destroyer350 13-Oct-17
Timbrhuntr 13-Oct-17
smarba 13-Oct-17
Ucsdryder 13-Oct-17
Jack Harris 13-Oct-17
kellyharris 13-Oct-17
Coyote 65 13-Oct-17
MathewsMan 13-Oct-17
buc i 313 13-Oct-17
midwest 13-Oct-17
sticksender 13-Oct-17
Brotsky 13-Oct-17
Bou'bound 13-Oct-17
Southpaw 13-Oct-17
smarba 13-Oct-17
Jack Harris 13-Oct-17
Trial153 13-Oct-17
Pat Lefemine 13-Oct-17
Destroyer350 13-Oct-17
APauls 13-Oct-17
Treeline 13-Oct-17
GF 13-Oct-17
DL 13-Oct-17
TD 13-Oct-17
Jack Harris 13-Oct-17
Jack Harris 13-Oct-17
Sage Buffalo 13-Oct-17
stealthycat 13-Oct-17
Surfbow 13-Oct-17
Treeline 13-Oct-17
IdyllwildArcher 13-Oct-17
bill brown 14-Oct-17
Timbrhuntr 14-Oct-17
Dyjack 14-Oct-17
Dyjack 14-Oct-17
Jack Harris 14-Oct-17
GF 14-Oct-17
GF 14-Oct-17
Will 14-Oct-17
Owl 15-Oct-17
Bou'bound 15-Oct-17
Bowfreak 15-Oct-17
Pigsticker 15-Oct-17
elk yinzer 15-Oct-17
Will 15-Oct-17
Lee 15-Oct-17
Trial153 15-Oct-17
Dooner 15-Oct-17
Rut Nut 16-Oct-17
elkstabber 16-Oct-17
elkstabber 16-Oct-17
Jack Harris 16-Oct-17
Will 16-Oct-17
APauls 16-Oct-17
Rut Nut 16-Oct-17
buc i 313 16-Oct-17
LINK 16-Oct-17
elkstabber 16-Oct-17
APauls 16-Oct-17
GF 16-Oct-17
LINK 17-Oct-17
Genesis 17-Oct-17
Nesser 17-Oct-17
Timbrhuntr 17-Oct-17
elkstabber 18-Oct-17
Rut Nut 18-Oct-17
PAbowhunter1064 18-Oct-17
Rut Nut 18-Oct-17
killinstuff 18-Oct-17
Timbrhuntr 18-Oct-17
GF 18-Oct-17
Rut Nut 18-Oct-17
Bou'bound 19-Oct-17
elk yinzer 19-Oct-17
Rut Nut 19-Oct-17
Pintail 19-Oct-17
Timbrhuntr 19-Oct-17
elkstabber 19-Oct-17
Timbrhuntr 19-Oct-17
Bowfreak 19-Oct-17
Timbrhuntr 19-Oct-17
HerdManager 19-Oct-17
Timbrhuntr 19-Oct-17
Ace 19-Oct-17
DL 19-Oct-17
Jack Harris 19-Oct-17
GF 20-Oct-17
Rut Nut 20-Oct-17
Tonybear61 20-Oct-17
GF 20-Oct-17
Rut Nut 20-Oct-17
HerdManager 20-Oct-17
GF 20-Oct-17
Scar Finga 20-Oct-17
LINK 20-Oct-17
Bou'bound 20-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 21-Oct-17
Trial153 21-Oct-17
BOX CALL 21-Oct-17
BOX CALL 21-Oct-17
BOX CALL 21-Oct-17
Matt 21-Oct-17
From: Jack Harris
13-Oct-17

Jack Harris's Link
This is going to be a hot topic in NJ in the weeks and months ahead. All I will say is I was able to reach out to the dog owner (didn't know her but felt compelled to let her know that the shooters actions did not represent the bow hunting community and we were all outraged), and she was not an anti and was very rational. She just wanted to have "known" that a hunter was in her neighbor's woods and perhaps she would have not let her dog run on his own to chase deer thus giving the appearance of a coyote. She did assume some responsibility for not keeping her dog on her property. Again - not some irrational anti.

Turn the tables back to the shooter. Through reliable sources - he had no intention of shooting a dog. It was low light, and he never saw the collar (know your target...). Look at the picture of "Tonka". Shooting coyotes while in the act of deer hunting is ALWAYS LEGAL in NJ. He could have covered up his mistake but he was the one to call the authorities. He has tried to make amends with owners to buy them new dog, but they are not ready for that. It seems some politicians have grasped the issue and all that United Bowhunters of NJ have fought for may be undone.

A sad blow to all involved and all that will be impacted...

Know your target, know your target, know your target....... Just thought I would share this with our National bowhunting community - perhaps this knowledge could prevent a similar mistake from being made elsewhere. This is one genie that will be impossible to put back in the bottle.

From: Scar Finga
13-Oct-17
Jack, Thank you for sharing it's much appreciated! I hope this ends well for all involved!

Best Wishes!

From: Destroyer350
13-Oct-17

Destroyer350's Link
This one also happened this week. Kinda graphic but the dog survived. As a dog lover I could never shoot someones pet like that. Even if it was on my property or was chasing deer. I know some might think different but thats where I stand.

From: Timbrhuntr
13-Oct-17
On one farm I hunt the landowner was always afraid that I would shoot one of her dogs when out hunting. I assured her that I was bow hunting and as such always had my quarry in close where I could identify it before shooting. I hope she doesn't read this ! Her one dog used to follow me out to my stand sometimes when he was a pup. He would lay at the botom of the tree and look up at me silly mutt ! If I was hunting on the ground he would climb into my lap. This would be tough to take for sure.

From: smarba
13-Oct-17
Never mind the number of dogs killed by cars within the same distance of buildings. Perhaps cars should be banned?! Anytime a law gets a name that tugs on the heartstrings of the masses it's going to be an uphill battle to stop it.

From: Ucsdryder
13-Oct-17
Any laws in NJ about dogs chasing wildlife?

From: Jack Harris
13-Oct-17
"Any laws in NJ about dogs chasing wildlife? " I don't think dogs are allowed to roam free and trespass - there are leash laws, etc. Technically the dog/owner was in violation of "something" but it would require landowner pressing charges. I don't think that situation applies here.

Bottom line, the shooter made a HUGE mistake that all NJ bowhunters will be paying for. He didn't try and hide his mistake.

From: kellyharris
13-Oct-17
Hmmmm

I thought all states, counties, cities, townships, etc. all have leash laws.

I had a serious conversation 3 years ago with a neighbor who let his dog shit in my yard and walked off!

Two things for sure; 1. Has she been a responsible dog owner and not allow her dog to roam this would not have happened.

2. Has he been a responsible hunter and made sure of his target this would not have happened.

His dogs shit was scooped up with a shovel and tossed onto his property.

Being a dog owner takes a lot of responsibility. Why folks who let dogs roam have to understand there are going to be mishaps.

If the dog ran into the street after a deer the dog owner would be 100% responsible for the damage to the vehicle!

Why did they not keep their dog on their property? You know the property that they are paying for, the property for their personal use?

From: Coyote 65
13-Oct-17
As a former dog owner living in a National Forest, I never let my dogs run free, not so much as fear of hunters, but packs of coyotes, or Mt. Lions, or bears, all of which roam the area. That is probably why he lived till he was 13.

Terry

From: MathewsMan
13-Oct-17
Ranchers around our area (sheep and cattle country) here in NW Colorado encourage shooting at large dogs. When they chase wildlife they get shot as well.

From: buc i 313
13-Oct-17
IMHO,

The hunter must assume / accept all responsibility for this one.

A shot on an assumed target ??? " SAD "

The dog was only doing what dogs have done since being domesticated .

As Jack stated,

KNOW YOUR TARGET !!!!

From: midwest
13-Oct-17
A hundred bad things can happen to a dog that runs loose. This shouldn't be one of them.

Cool looking dog.

From: sticksender
13-Oct-17
Interesting. Another way to look at it......if I let my pet dog run loose, anywhere in the USA, and he gets hit accidentally by a car, I'm fully responsible for the cost of repairs to the car. Similarly, it seems the dog owner in this case could be responsible for the losses incurred due to negligence in letting their dog loose and getting accidentally shot. At least the dog owner's only cost responsibility would be the cost of the arrow/broadhead if destroyed, and I suppose any costs to bury the dog?

From: Brotsky
13-Oct-17
This is a very sad situation all the way around. Best of luck to you guys in Jersey Jack, I think you'll need it. This is just another example of how all of us is only as good as the least of us in the eyes of the majority.

From: Bou'bound
13-Oct-17

? EDITOR: My dog was shot and killed last night (Wednesday, Sept. 20). I was walking him around 7 p.m., and he must've seen some deer, he took off into the woods.

There is a small section of woods that connects a bunch of our properties. I called him right away, loudly enough that not so close neighbors heard me, and followed him.

Within a minute, a man shot our sweet dog, Tonka, with a cross bow. He was killed within 200 feet of our house and several other houses (that also have small children). The man claimed that my dog looked like a coyote, even though he was there to kill deer. My dog had stopped running before he was shot...probably about to come back home. The police and game warden confirmed that my dog does not look like a coyote. "Hunters" should know what they're shooting before they shoot, especially with a scope. He had a collar on and was clearly someone's dog. Never in a million years could I have imagined that this would happen. The man who killed my dog had permission from one of the neighbors to hunt on their property. How can this be allowed?

There is essentially a stranger with a gun in the woods. My 9-year-old usually has him on a leash running all over the place. Thank God he wasn't there with him. I'm telling you this because I love this town and I wouldn't want to this happen to anyone. This man will be fined and probably lose his hunting license for a few years, but that will never replace the pain or the hole in our heart that our family has. We live in a community.

There are children everywhere. How can hunting be allowed so close to so many homes? How can people with guns, who don't live in our town, be allowed to walk the woods? I was following Tonka, if the man had misfired, that cross bow could've headed my way. There must be a way to change the rules.

We don't live in the sticks. Our houses might not be on top of one another, but I can see many neighbors from here. There are so many kids in this area. I understand that you are allowed to hunt on your property and I acknowledge that my dog left our property but that not an excuse to kill someone's dog - the sweetest of dogs that was wearing a collar. How is it OK that we can let anyone into our community with a weapon so close to our homes, without telling the other neighbors? I wish that I knew that someone can shoot with a cross bow more than 150 feet from my home without my knowledge....but the bow can travel further!? How do I explain to my 3- and 9-year-old that their 1-year-old dog was shot and killed right outside of their home? My 3-year-old won't remember, but my 9-year-old, who cried himself to sleep last night, is forever scarred and will probably never want to play in the woods again. The man who killed Tonka left the woods and then called the police after we had found him and after he heard me screaming and after we had called the police. I wonder if he would've turned himself in if we didn't find Tonka. Our home feels empty and our hearts are very broken today. That's the end of my rant, but not the end of my new mission to make a charge

From: Southpaw
13-Oct-17
Love bowhunting, but I also love bird hunting over my dog! If someone shoots my bird dog I don't care where he is, I will pay their medical bills

From: smarba
13-Oct-17
Whoa, whoa, whoa. This guy had a xbow, not a gun. The lady whose dog was shot repeatedly refers to "gun". Everyone knows, after beating the topic to death on Bowsite, that a xbow is no different than a bow and that it should be allowed in archery-only seasons and is most definitely not a "gun". Sorry for getting off track, but hopefully you see my point (tongue in cheeck). Even the non-hunting uninformed public lumps xbows into the "gun" category...

From: Jack Harris
13-Oct-17
stay on topic SMARBA, stay on topic :)

From: Trial153
13-Oct-17
i can't believe I am reading some of these convoluted responses on here that are turning this around onto the dog or the owner. Hunting is doomed.

From: Pat Lefemine
13-Oct-17
Destroyer, that story about the lab being shot with an arrow does not add up. First, the arrow had no broadhead on it, appears to be a field point. 2nd, it was a low chest shot but that arrow should have been a clean pass-thru. And 3rd, there is no angle to that shot, so either it was kids messing around with a very lightweight bow and shot the dog, or something fishy is going on.

As far as the husky, I could see how someone would think that was a big coyote in low light. My neigbor used to let her dogs run free up here until I explained to her that I hunt coyotes at night and one of her dogs would look exactly like a coyote with night vision. She didn't stop letting the dog roam free and eventually it disappeared - when I was away. It was not me.

From: Destroyer350
13-Oct-17
Agreed Pat. I'd bet it was some kid with a low poundage bow and not a hunter from a tree stand.

From: APauls
13-Oct-17
I was gonna say it was a trad guy cause it lacked penetration, but then I realized it was a pretty dang accurate shot.

JK!!! I shoot a recurve too lol. But ya that arrow peno doesn't add up.

From: Treeline
13-Oct-17
The lady started her rant that the dog took off into the woods after “probably deer”.

I have lived most of my life in farming-ranching communities. I have seen the damage that a couple of small dogs can do to livestock and how many small game species get killed by cats. It really blows my mind how people with pets can be so stupid about letting them run amuck. Also amazed by the numbers of dogs and cats dumped out to fend for themselves.

I will and have shot a number of domestic “pets”/feral dogs and cats chasing and harassing wildlife or domestic livestock. Absolutely not acceptable for people to let their pets run wild and they should expect them to be killed either by a responsible landowner, hunter, or just someone driving down the road.

From: GF
13-Oct-17
I know this is going to sound self-righteous to a lot of people, but no matter how irresponsible the dog owner might/might not be.... the shooter is still the one responsible for tripping the trigger or loosing the string.

But in the CouldaWouldaShoulda department...

If you're hunting right close to a lot of houses, shouldn't you ask the landowner about coyote problems and neighbors' dogs, and neighbors' dogs that look like coyotes, and which neighbors treat the landowner's property as if they owned it themselves?

I COMPLETELY disagree with the "bereaved" dog owner's position that A) the 50-yard minimum is inadequate (it is more than ample for archery gear) or that B) it should be legally mandated that landowner A MUST inform landowner B that A is allowing hunting, and of course C) it's completely off the table to think that B should be able to prevent A from hunting (or allowing others to hunt) on A's property, provided that minimum safety setbacks and all other legal requirements are observed.

On the other hand it sure seems polite and sensible to TELL your neighbor that someone will be hunting your land and offer to introduce the Hunter in question to the neighbor so that they can discuss any safety concerns or considerations.

Yeah, PITA, right? Hunting shouldn't be that complicated. But frankly, Hunting is not an activity that really belongs in the suburbs - just unfortunate that the deer never got the memo and suburban hunting just happens to be necessary. But on the up-side... what if you introduced yourself to the neighbor and that led to no-hassle recovery permission and/or additional acres to hunt?

I just have to wonder, though... Why did this guy shoot an animal that "looked like a big coyote". Did he "know" that it WAS, or did it just look like that's what it could be....in a residential area... where neighbors probably do have big dogs (and that looks like one BIG freakin' dog). I got drilled HARD on 100% target certainty when I was a kid, and that just seems like a REALLY bad bet.

Funny how obvious Common Sense becomes in Hindsight.... I guess that's why it's GOOD that we see these sorts of things when they do happen; just hope the fall-out can somehow be contained.

From: DL
13-Oct-17
I'm in California and the county put up large signs warning dog owners that dogs chasing or worrying livestock can be shot. Every once in a while I read about someone walking their dog and releasing it onto someone's pasture. It gets shot and the owners go ballistic saying their beloved FiFi would never hurt anything. Barking is worrying. A small jack russel harassing cattle can do damage especially in corrals by panicking the animal. I witnessed people releasing their dog up in the mountains where sheep were being watched over by Komondors. Our dogs were on leashes and I headed the other way. Don't know if that dog made a fatal mistake and headed towards the sheep.

From: TD
13-Oct-17
The lady knows as much about distance as she does about guns, crossbows and bows. 150 feet is only 30 yards. The hunter was NOT 150 feet from her house in any way shape or form. She was walking the dog not next to her house, she was on a tract of forest. Don't know how many acres, but I don't consider horse barns, paddocks and corrals the "suburbs" either. I can see how that dog looked like a yote in low light moving through the forest..... it ain't no poodle.... it was a shepherd.

Feel for her family, and the guy made a stupid mistake. Plenty of mistakes to go all around for sure.

Agree with the harassment of livestock and such above. Have personally dealt with several situations like that..... one just a couple years ago. Wasn't with bows, was shotguns with 00buck. The rancher that owned the calves the dogs had killed (deer too, but he hates deer...) was so happy we now have rights to several more of his properties. He said we saved him a good deal of money those dogs were costing him.

From: Jack Harris
13-Oct-17
Let me reiterate. I spoke to her a few days after it happened. She is not a zanie anti. Her husband hunts ducks. They had a lab. I didn't think she was going "that way" but once a NJ politician gets involved this is what u get. She told me she wants notification. The 30 yard rule would not have saved her dog but it wil be first to go. Dogs can run deer for miles. This is so bad on so many levels.

From: Jack Harris
13-Oct-17
if it matters - the hunter killed the "coyote" within 450 feet of houses (not 150) and he does have a court appearance next month. Again he "fessed up" because the 150' rule only applies to deer that is what needs to be focused on. Both parties at fault. I just learned this

From: Sage Buffalo
13-Oct-17
GF is right and anyone who hunts in suburban areas knows you shoot close and make sure that it's a 100% or close as possible slam dunk shot. You never take chances because it's not worth it because lots of eyes on you. You never shoot anything but the species you are there to hunt unless you have discussed with land owner.

This isn't farm country where feral dogs are running and a problem.

You could be hunting land that's 2-3 acres. I could actually see people getting up for work in one area I hunted.

Bummer for the hunter and dog owner.

From: stealthycat
13-Oct-17
more laws, more laws, more laws .....

:(

its the pet owners responsibility where their animals are and what they're doing - laws saying don't let your animals run through other peoples property would be better IMO

From: Surfbow
13-Oct-17
I don't think that dog looks anything like a coyote, it's at least twice the size of one. The shooter blew it regardless of where the dog was and what the lighting was, if you can't positively identify your target...DON'T SHOOT...Hunters Ed 101!!!

From: Treeline
13-Oct-17
I would have shot the dog. Sounds like the owner admitted that it was chasing deer.

13-Oct-17
In CA, there's a 150 yard rule and it really limits hunting in a lot of prime areas that could otherwise be safely bowhunted; especially in San Diego county that has a lot of 5-40 acre parcels. I understand limited distance for rifle shots near homes and perhaps it should be farther than 150 for rifles as CA has a lot of semi-suburban areas, but for archery equipment, it's ridiculous.

From: bill brown
14-Oct-17
I just watched a pack of dogs chasing deer on one of my trail cams. From past research this is extremely dangerous, as they revert to a pack hunting mentality with no fear of humans. They don't belong on my farm and constitute a danger. What do you think I will do?

From: Timbrhuntr
14-Oct-17
It's a pet dog chasing a deer. Like I said the farm I hunt she has 4 dogs. They used to chase the deer and it was almost comical. The deer would run them around in circles like a game. I have also been chased by wild dogs and there is a big difference. I talked her into getting an invisible fence because some of the "hunters" that sat the fence line said they would shoot the dogs if they got a chance. Luckily they never did or we would have lost rights to the whole section.

From: Dyjack
14-Oct-17
Disturbing how many threads pop up with people defending killing pets. Then you wonder why people hate on hunters.

This dude should have known what he was shooting at. IMO he shouldn't be allowed to hunt if he can't identify species.

The dog should have been on a leash. Both are at fault here. Sometimes dogs get out.

Probably deserve to lose hunting rights there. And introduce some species identification courses if people are going to be stupid.

After reading how many people defend killing pets here I'm glad they banned hunting in our immediate area. Wouldn't want you guys to shoot my dog if she gets out and chases a squirrel.

From: Dyjack
14-Oct-17
Light side: someone should go ahead and turn this into anti cross bow propaganda. "If he had to actually draw the bow, maybe he would have had more time to identify what he was killing."

From: Jack Harris
14-Oct-17
"If he had to actually draw the bow, maybe he would have had more time to identify what he was killing." LOL - well played!!!

From: GF
14-Oct-17
“They don't belong on my farm and constitute a danger. What do you think I will do?”

That’s as different a situation as could be.

From: GF
14-Oct-17
The additional argument against crossbows is their adaptability to scopes. I don’t know about you guys, but I have a pretty limited effective range shooting irons in brush. Sure, you can get a good lane and good light sometimes, but when it gets thick, I can’t usually tell if I have a clean shot or not once I get past 30 yards or so- and less in poor light - so my only option is to let the animal get closer.

That means you end up spending more time observing the animal, and in a case like this where evidently the dog owner was following behind and calling after the dog, you would think that there would be a lot more information available to the shooter before he went ahead and made that crappy decision. Too, the farther out the shot, the greater the chance of skipping an arrow or bullet off into the distance.

So honestly, I think there is a Safety-related case to be made for limiting or even prohibiting magnification power on scopes, or just banning them outright in Archery seasons.

And again, I don’t know about you guys, but it’s a lot harder for me to judge the size of an animal through binocs or a scope. Yeah, you can judge RACKS, but I’m talking body size and mistaking a fawn for an adult or maybe a dog for a coyote. Biggest deer I ever shot was one I took for a 1.5 YO basket-rack - I decided he was kinda small, but good enough for my purposes at about 75-80 yards out and that (combined with being 20 feet up) was enough to prevent me from realizing how big a deer he was even at 7-8 yards when I finally took him.

Juuuust sayin’!

From: Will
14-Oct-17
This stinks for all. In the end though, you own it the second you pull the trigger. The dog should have been on leash or on the families property... but it doesnt matter. It still shouldnt have been shot.

The whole situation stinks for all involved!

From: Owl
15-Oct-17
A) This one belongs to the hunter. B) A deer running dog in suburban NJ is probably viewed more as an asset than a nuisance and C) In every endeavor and facet of life, mistakes happen. This is a case of direct recompense not policy bans. Were we to outlaw mistakes and stupidity, the world would have to self-abort instantly.

From: Bou'bound
15-Oct-17
I hunted with a veterinarian in newfoundland in 2002. I won't go into details but the stories he told of the things he saw in his office in the fall as a result of hunters and the pets of others was beyond belief. This was a hunter talking to hunters from a position of knowledge. Amazing.

From: Bowfreak
15-Oct-17
I think this is ridiculous and a good indicator of why hunting is doomed sooner rather than later in left leaning states.

Regardless of how it happens and what happens....if your dog is on someone else's property it's tresspassing. The hunter made a mistake but, keep your dog on your property and it won't happen.

Also....it's a freaking dog. Many people are more upset when a pet is killed than they are if it was a person. I love dogs but they are animals and I hold them in such less regard over any human that I can't even quantify.

Typical bleeding heart knee jerk reaction....let's make a law and this will never happen again!

From: Pigsticker
15-Oct-17
Personally this should have based on the cases own merits and not used by a democrat as a political tool to further that organizations agenda. You do not make laws for isolated cases of chance and circumstance. I bet There are enough laws already to cite both parties but one the woman want let it go and now the political machine wants to Make a mountain out of a mole hill.

From: elk yinzer
15-Oct-17
Both parties in the wrong but the emotions will prevail with more anti-hunting legislation, unfortunately.

But, wow, is there ever some disgusting, putrid arrogance displayed by a few in this thread. Feeding the anti's tremedous ammo you idiots.

From: Will
15-Oct-17
This bugged me over night. I do feel that when we participate in an activity with a weapon, we are held to a higher standard. Like it or not. Thus, a hunter making a mistake has made a bigger mistake than it may look on some levels.

That said, the dogs owner constantly notes kids... as if her dog would never hurt kids. Having seen many times where technically illegal off leash dogs, walking in local state forests (where hunting is legal) have charged my family, including my kids, even knocking my daughter down once. The owners always have the same response, "fido wont hirt anyone"... said as the dog growls menacingly.

This sucks, and hunters will take the brunt... but man, dog owners need to be better too!

From: Lee
15-Oct-17
I hunt both urban and farm country - big difference!! I had a neighbor come over the other day upset that my lab came over to his house and took a swim in his koi pond. Man was he upset! I had him on an invisible fence but his battery had died on his collar. I didn't realize it or I would have replaced it. My fault? Absolutely but it would have been hell to pay if he shot my dog. Stuff happens but a neighborhood is a hell of a lot different than farm country!

From: Trial153
15-Oct-17
Somebody that believes the stereotype that Hunters are crude simpletons will have plenty of evidence to back it up by reading this thread.

From: Dooner
15-Oct-17
This whole story is a sad commentary, and yet typical in a couple of ways. 1) I'm not surprised it was a X-Bow hunter. 2) It fits the mentality of NJ. The state that is overrun by Bears, and tries to outlaw Bear Hunting.

From: Rut Nut
16-Oct-17
Well, I could see where that dog was mistaken for a coyote(not like it was a lab or poodle). Things happen fast when we are hunting. I once shot a spotted button buck that I had no idea had spots. Shot it at last light at 30y and could not see them.(was early season with leaves still on trees). If I saw an animal that looked like a coyote chasing deer, I might have shot as well. Almost shot a large rotweiller coming thru the pines in bear season. Only reason I didn't was that at the last second I heard the dog's chain/collar rattling.

So I will give this hunter the benefit of the doubt............................................especially since he admitted his mistake and took responsibility and called the authorities. He could have very easily drug the carcass out and nobody would have known what happened.(or at least could not prove anything)

I think most of the blame should be put on the irresponsible dog owner- if the dog was leashed, this would not have happened. But in this day and age, people don't want to take responsibility for their actions(or in-actions). The hunter did in this case and the owner did not, or she would not be trying to blame the hunter!

From: elkstabber
16-Oct-17
It is interesting to see the comments from all over the country.

Just to clear up a few points that are important in the eastern states: 1. According to the dog owner the shooting occurred about 7pm. That was about 15-20 minutes after sunset, and was still within legal shooting hours. Visibility was limited. 2. Coyotes in the east are bigger and their colors vary much more than western coyotes. I have trapped various color phase coyotes on my farm and they were twice the size of coyotes that I've seen out West. That dog could easily be mistaken for a coyote by an experienced hunter.

The dog owner wants to be notified when hunters are present on her neighbors property. I'd prefer that she notify neighbors of when she will be turning her dog loose to chase wildlife and trespass.

From: elkstabber
16-Oct-17
The more that I think about this the more pissed off I get.

The hunter that accidently shot Tonka might be critical to keeping this bill from getting passed. His testimony is important because it appears that he was legally hunting property with permission and wasn't expecting a housedog to be chasing deer.

Of course, this all depends on what the NJ law is for loose dogs and if they are allowed to chase wildlife on neighboring properties.

I would hate to see a law that restricted hunting all because Tonka was breaking the law.

From: Jack Harris
16-Oct-17

Jack Harris's embedded Photo
Jack Harris's embedded Photo
To elkstabber's point - there really is no such thing as an "Eastern Coyote". It has been proven that they have been genetically polluted by a wolf and dog genes. They are not as genetically "pure" as the western counterparts. They are also bigger, but can produce "all black" varieties as well as every color imaginable. When I shot this 'yote back in 2015, many on here even commented "that's a dog!" or "are you sure it didn't have a collar" ? (pics attached)

From: Will
16-Oct-17
Elkstabber - those are great points about context. It's funny, my kids see yotes on my backyard trail cam, and occasionally out the window, here in Central MA. This summer, on a vacation while checking out Wind Cave National Park in western SD, there was a yote hunting prairie dogs next to the access road. My 6 year old daughter kept calling it a "gray fox" because it looked so much smaller than the "Coy Wolf's" (as they are starting to be called) we have here.

The end point, to me, still comes from basic hunter safety courses - know your target. If you have ANY doubt, dont shoot.

The dog owner was wrong, the dog was wrong... But the person/people with the weapons are the one's who will be most scrutinized which is a bummer. But it's life. It's a horrible reminder, but a strong one, that like it or not, "we" have to work harder than everyone else at being great ambassadors.

From: APauls
16-Oct-17
You think that hunter is going to come forward and tell his side of the story?!! Not if he has a brain he won't.

Think of what happened to Walter Palmer when he shot a lion a million miles away. Now you're talking about a guy who killed a pet dog right here in the States. Some people will save their dog in a fire before they save kids. Not a chance he wants his name out there.

I'm not a dog lover by any means, but I have seen my wife love a dog and I think that there would have to be a heck of a good reason before I loose an arrow at a domestic. Chasing deer isn't one of them in my books, but if a dog ever threatened human life I would have zero hesitation.

From: Rut Nut
16-Oct-17
Good point APauls. This is the same state where the hunter that legally shot "Pedals the bear" last year was crucified publically and received many death threats!

From: buc i 313
16-Oct-17
Addendum to my previous post.

The owner being careless, or the dog not being aware of it's life being at risk is not relevant fellows. 10 yards , 500 yards , or a 1,000 yards from a residence. The dog did not know it had a careless owner, and In all probability the dog never thought of it's self as a coyote.

The HUNTER MADE THE DECISION TO SHOOT !

It remains the responsibility of each hunter to, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SHOOTING AT !

I'm sorry to say this, but his willingness to come forward does not excuse his poor decision.

From: LINK
16-Oct-17
I assumed the lab was shot with an expandable. Blades broke upon entry. :) Not excusing anyone mistaking a 50 pound husky for a 30 pound coyote but that said a dogs place is on the owners property.

From: elkstabber
16-Oct-17
LINK: I've never weighed them but I'm certain that I've trapped and shot coyotes weighing over 50# on my farm in VA. I've trapped them in several color phases too. This is because they have dog genetics in them. I stand by my opinion that an experienced hunter could easily have mistaken that dog for an eastern coyote.

From: APauls
16-Oct-17
Also agree, dogs should not be running wild. But a dog regularly running wild and a dog that gets out or gets away is a different matter.

When I had a golden retriever we had a fenced in yard. Dog stayed in there at all times. Out of the blue, 3 years later she all of a sudden figures a way to dig out one area and gets out, wants to go explore the neighbourhood. So now everyone should shoot her because she's no longer on my property? I get it, the responsibility is mine, but everyone needs to understand this is real life guys. Be it work, family, play or pets, things can sometimes take an unexpected turn and a dog can run loose. If shooting it is your first reaction I honestly think there is something wrong with you. As I've said I'm no dog lover, I never wanted one, but I can understand that there are people who are (like my wife), and for THOSE people I understand that I would not want to kill their dog and crush their spirit like that. We should all want to get along in this world and shooting peoples' pets isn't going to help that.

A completely different situation is one where a neighbor has a pet that they consistently let roam because they simply feel like it. You talk to the owner, it's against the law and if the animal is a consistent problem and causes damage, and you're within the law, well then...sss can't blame you. I think I would personally try and make it expensive for that person to have to retrieve their animal from the pound consistently, but maybe I am slower to anger.

From: GF
16-Oct-17
Adam - how about this one?

We had a good young dog; never any trouble. One night he did get out. About 3:00 AM he woke my parents up because he was stumbling around in their room. Somebody - probably someone who was ticked off at some other irresponsible owner’s dog - had put out a little “treat” for the dogs that were causing a problem, but it was OUR dog that had his liver destroyed. Poor pup never had a chance.

So frankly, at least SOME people deal selectively with the problem dogs.

“Almost shot a large rotweiller coming thru the pines in bear season. Only reason I didn't was that at the last second I heard the dog's chain/collar rattling.”

That was part of my earlier point about scopes weapons.... they take the game out of earshot.

Wrong for me to assume that this guy shot any farther than I normally would with a recurve, but at 15-20 minutes after sun-down, the light-gathering ability of an optical sight can REALLY stretch my effective range vs. the brass bead on my .45/70 or the silver blade of my .54, or even a FO sight pin on a bow.

Jack - that is a darn big coyote! Seeing that coat removes a lot o’ doubt, but the mass of his muzzle would give me pause... especially in silhouette.

But when in doubt..... you’ve gotta be smart. On the private property I sometimes hunt, the owner has been asking me FOR YEARS to kill any coyote that gives me a crack at him; I know what his dogs look like and the place is big enough that there is no way I should see anyone’s stray pet on that property. So under those conditions I might be aggressive. On a 2-acre parcel, probably a lot less so. It’s just s situational awareness issue.

From: LINK
17-Oct-17
I'm sure it's harder to tell between the eastern coyotes and a dog than the coyotes I shoot. That said Jacks coyote is still a far cry from a the big Shepherd pictured. The guy messed up big, if he couldn't discern whether it was a coyote or that big shepherd it was either way to dark or he is a blooming idiot.

I've had animals get out I get it. I have land that borders a highway and one of my cows got out awhile back, she got hit in the head by a big rig at night. Should I pursue laws outlawing trucks near private property, of course not it's my responsibility. Had the truck not been driving at night to avoid law because his truck couldn't pass inspection he wouldn't have hit her. Still my fault. Had he not hit her someone else might have because she was not where she belonged. A dog shouldn't get shot cause it gets out once but when an animal runs loose anything can happen and it's on the owner to deal with the consequences.

From: Genesis
17-Oct-17
The first and third "S" are the most penal.

From: Nesser
17-Oct-17
Man it's one thing if your dog looks like a yote, doesn't have a collar and gets shot. That husky doesn't look like any coyote I've ever seen. I agree it's on the dog owners to keep them on leash or contained but just shooting a collared lab because it comes by chasing deer in this day is not smart. Hunting is under a microscope and you better be prepared to make the newspaper if the owner finds you. I'd be a lunatic if someone shot my dog that I've spent thousands of dollars and hours training.

From: Timbrhuntr
17-Oct-17
There are a lot of people where I live that don't think you should be able to shoot coyotes either ! I have a buddy that ran dogs in the winter to shoot coyotes but he has all but stopped. As the farms changed hands more and more landowners that don't farm but bought the land to escape the city didn't want hunting of any kind done so he kept losing farms to hunt coyotes on. So think how they feel about a pet dog being shot by a hunter ! I hunt in an area that is semi-urban and I see pet domestic dogs and yotes alot. I also live in an area with some big yotes but I cant ever say I would have mistaken one for the other. They have a completely different way of moving through the woods in my opinion. But then again I am real careful of what I shoot at because of where I hunt. I think if I was in ranch land in Montana where attitudes may be somewhat more forgiving I may be more lax just because of the location but I am always on high alert because I know one slip up and no hunting spot. Before the farm I hunt changed hands I had to drag a deer out an extra 1/4 mile so I didn't go anywhere past the house where she might see me with a dead animal.

From: elkstabber
18-Oct-17
Having just re-read all of the posts and checking what part of the country they are from there are two interesting themes:

1. Eastern guys who are familiar with coyotes can understand the mix up occurring because eastern coyotes have dog/wolf genetics and so are larger and colors vary widely. Western guys can't fathom the mix up because their coyotes are smaller and have more uniform coloration.

2. Eastern guys (mostly) feel that a dog is going to do what a dog is going to do and that the hunter is ultimately responsible. Conversely, the western guys (mostly) feel that if a dog has left it's owner's property and gets killed that it was the dog owner's fault. It seems that the dog owner habitually let her dog chase wildlife on numerous properties.

I'm not trying to start a debate but was just noticing the differences among hunters in the east versus the west. It seems that we are all brothers from different mothers...

From: Rut Nut
18-Oct-17
I agree with you somewhat elkstabber. We have some pretty big coyotes in the Northeast AND they are getting closer and closer to the big cities! I watched what I thought was a golden retriever come out of a small suburban woodlot one day at lunchtime. It came out in a field where I often see deer. I assumed it was a dog until I looked at the silhouette of it closer- especially the head. That is when I realized it was actually a coy-dog! No collar and you could tell it was not a dog by its behavior.

And although I feel the hunter is ultimately responsible, I just don't agree that he should be MORE responsible than the dog owner that let her dog run free. Especially when the hunter broke no game laws and did the right thing by notifying the authorities!

I just can't understand where people get off crucifiying this guy for an honest, and VERY understandable mistake!

18-Oct-17

PAbowhunter1064's embedded Photo
PAbowhunter1064's embedded Photo
This was on one of my trail cams in southeast PA, taken this past Spring. I'd definitely say he would weigh somewhere north of 50 lbs, and could definitely be mistaken for a German Shepherd or Husky. As elkstabber, Jack, and others have stated, coyotes here look more "wolf-like" than those of their western counterparts. The only sure fire way I've been able to distinguish that they aren't domestic dog breeds, is in their cunning stealthiness, their gait, and their eyes....they have that certain "look" to them.

BUT...what has always kept me from releasing the bow string, is the fact that I could not be 100% sure, and didn't want to be the hunter featured in the story above.

From: Rut Nut
18-Oct-17
Thanks Josh- just further evidence....................................which brings up another question:

You see something that looks like the animal in your trailcam pic running towards your stand at last light chasing a deer. What do you do? Quick........................."what do you do hotshot???!!!" ;-)

From: killinstuff
18-Oct-17
Well that fella shouldn't be allowed to hunt for a period of time.

And that family shouldn't be allowed to own an animal of any kind for the same length of time.

Both sides are idiots.

From: Timbrhuntr
18-Oct-17
For me unless I can for sure Id it as a coyote I just watch. Not worth me killing a loose pet dog. Guess im not much of a hotshot !

From: GF
18-Oct-17
Rut Nut -

What do you do? You ask yourself “what is the worst thing that can happen if I take this shot?” And then you ask yourself “what is the worst thing that can happen if I choose NOT to take this shot?”

Seems to me that elkstabber had the right take on the analysis when he noted that in the east it is easier to mistake a coyote for a dog. Unfortunately, in this case… The shooter mistook a dog for a coyote, and all hell broke loose.

You just have to be aware of your situation and what the challenges are and what the risks are.

If you’re in farm country and letting a big coyote walk will likely allow it to take some livestock, you’d more likely be excused for erring on the aggressive side. Or if in an area where large coyotes have demonstrated an inadequate level of respect for human dominance.

But it’s a funny thing..., even though I had the one landowner anxious for me to address the coyotes that had been mauling his dogs, I’m sure there’d have been hell to pay if I’d shot the neighbor’s pet.

I do agree, though, with the guys who’ve noted that dogs and coyotes have very different gaits and body language - even how they hold their tails is different....

Gotta pay attention to all the details and let down when anything doesn’t seem right.

At least if you’re hunting where there are lots of people and pets.

From: Rut Nut
18-Oct-17
GF- I don’t honestly know what I would do? My point was, in this scenario when you have an animal coming in fast, in low light that is chasing a deer, that gives you every indication it is and is acting like a coyote, there is a good chance you might not have time to think and just have to react(or not!). My point is it very likely it will be a split second decision.(in this instance) And if you are in an area with a growing population of aggressive coyotes(marked by frequent missing small neighborhood pets and several encounters)you might be more likely to shoot than not! Especially in an area that has leash laws, where dogs that are NOT on their own property are required to be under control!

I guess I can just identify with this guy because I could see it possibly happening in a few spots I hunt. And you can talk what-if scenarios all you want, but sometimes while hunting crazy stuff happens, and sometimes it happens FAST and you don’t have time to run all the scenarios thru your brain!

From: Bou'bound
19-Oct-17
better to let 1000 coyotes walk than to shoot one pet accidently (or on purpose for that matter)

From: elk yinzer
19-Oct-17
Yotes are in the suburbs to stay. Heck they live in the City of Pgh limits right on the slopes adjacent to downtown. Shooting one yote with your bow ain't going to do a damn thing to the population. If you have any sliver of doubt it may be a dog and can't restrain yourself from shooting, you do not belong hunting suburban areas. There's an extra level of care required there.

From: Rut Nut
19-Oct-17
Yep, you're right BouBound................................in a PERFECT world, absolutely! ;-)

And elk yinzer.............................maybe if there weren't so many folks afraid to shoot at a coyote, they wouldn't be so aggressive! ;-)

From: Pintail
19-Oct-17
The sad part of all this besides the fact of a family losing a valued pet, is as hard as we try to police our own ranks there are always a few who give everyone the black eye. As Jack stated earlier in the thread, know your target and beyond. There are some who feel the need to drop the string on the first thing that presents a shot. In the Northeastern states there are a number of deer taken within the backyards of suburban developments. Its only a matter of time before additional rules are put into place to prevent further personal property loss. The politician carrying the torch on this particular incident is a bunny hugger of epic proportions. Whatever the outcome is, you can bet its not going to be favorable to the bow hunting community.

From: Timbrhuntr
19-Oct-17
Where I live I have over 1000 acres behind my house. I have seen some real nice bucks and if I put out a camera I will get pics of 10 plus deer every night and probably 3 or 5 coyotes. A number of years ago many of the smaller townships amalgamated into one large regional area. The urban area with more numbers of people rules. Where we used to hunt deer there is now a no discharge of firearms by-law which includes bows ! So no hunting. With the number of deer- car accidents and coyote being seen in broad daylight it seemed that some type of control might be needed. We petitioned to reinstate hunting in certain areas and under certain conditions. The Fish and Game did a study and recommended the reinstatement of bowhunting. At council the motion was voted down at a packed meeting. The reason was emotional testmony from parents and dog owners that felt hunters would be shooting their children and their pets !

From: elkstabber
19-Oct-17
Timbrhuntr there is no doubt that where you live in Canada is a lot different culture than those of us in the US.

From: Timbrhuntr
19-Oct-17
This is somewhat true unfortunately, however I think it can be regional thing more than a different country thing. I have relatives that live in rural areas on the east and west coast. I have also hunted with guys from the north in bush country. They all seem to have a different take on hunting altogether. I live close to the border and as a member of the fire department did many joint training exercises with my american brothers. As a result of that I have made good friends with some and been invited to hunt from Texas to Montana and New Mexico to Virginia. It always seems the same the more rural the area the more receptive to hunting in general. I am sure there would be more tolerance for this on my buddies ranch in Montana than my friends farm just outside of Ann Arbor !

From: Bowfreak
19-Oct-17
Don't hunt in town and there will never be an issue.

From: Timbrhuntr
19-Oct-17
I remember when they ended the spring bear hunt here. The bears got thick in some areas and were threatening homeowners and kids out playing. After a while they found several dumps in the woods near town full of bear carcasses so shoot shovel and shut up was more like it for never going to be an issue !

From: HerdManager
19-Oct-17
Look on the CDC website. Dogs bite about 800,000 kids every year in our country.

Sounds like maybe having dogs isn't such a great idea..............one less dog is no big deal

Maybe we should stop protecting dogs from us, and start protecting our kids from dogs.

From: Timbrhuntr
19-Oct-17
You could be right I wonder how many kids coyotes bite ! LOL !

Sorry got all the domestic duties caught up and can't go hunting until next week so I'm bored !

From: Ace
19-Oct-17
The dog he thought was a coyote was "chasing a deer"? So he took a running shot? Who is this guy Byron Ferguson? I'm betting he saw a canine and let fly, maybe it had spooked a deer he was watching. Something smells a bit off to me.

Yes, we have bigger and more varied colored coyotes in the northeast but I never saw a dog that I thought was a coyote at bow hunting distance. Watch them for 5 seconds and their movement and behavior is completely different.

From: DL
19-Oct-17
That law in California means in a straight line. I had a friend busted because of that. There was a hill between him and a house hiding the house.

From: Jack Harris
19-Oct-17
ACE - "The dog he thought was a coyote was "chasing a deer"? So he took a running shot? Who is this guy Byron Ferguson? I'm betting he saw a canine and let fly, maybe it had spooked a deer he was watching. Something smells a bit off to me. "

Maybe you missed the part of him turning himself in???

From: GF
20-Oct-17
“And you can talk what-if scenarios all you want, but sometimes while hunting crazy stuff happens, and sometimes it happens FAST and you don’t have time to run all the scenarios thru your brain!”

That’s why you need to do it BEFORE it happens.

To kill or not to kill: if anyone doesn’t think that’s a decision that requires some forethought, that’s someone who has no business being allowed out in public with any form of weapon. Ever. And by “in public”, I mean not even in their own back yard.

From: Rut Nut
20-Oct-17
Obviously we're not on the same wavelength, GF!

I agree that you run those scenarios thru your head well before you go out to hunt. BUT............................in the real world you don't always have time to think! Just like all these cop shootings...............................................I'm sure all of those officers had years of training and running thru simulated scenarios. But when the crap hits the fan, sometimes there is just no time to think and you just have to go with your gut. That's all I'm trying to say here.

From: Tonybear61
20-Oct-17
"Maybe we should stop protecting dogs from us, and start protecting our kids from dogs." 31 dogbite fatalities in 2016 per DogBite.org

Loose feral dogs in the woods is never a good thing. No one ever admits rover gets loose by accident or they are purposely let go to fend for themselves if no one wants them. Typically in a rural area just outside of the main urban centers. Dogs are great companions ( I can't have one due to severe allergies which sucks more than anyone can know.) but also can be very dangerous.

We had in incident in MN in early 80s when a feral pack tried to take a kid from his Mothers arms. Apparently they were stuck in the ditch from almost colliding with a deer. They get out of the van and shortly afterwards here comes the pack that was chasing the deer. An attack insued and lucky for the two of them another vehicle came and they were scared off by honking horn, etc. As the story goes a few days later the local community mounted on horse back, ATV, vehicles etc. and tracked the pack down, exterminated them. Something like 20-25 mixed breed dogs in the group. I have heard this story a number of times in my lifetime, tracked down a few folks for an interview who actually participated in the event. No real documented cases of wolves taking people in the woods but feral packs of dogs will....

From: GF
20-Oct-17
“Maybe you missed the part of him turning himself in???”

Not to be overly cynical, but… If a dog turns up dead on private land, it’s a pretty good bet that the land-owner has a very short list of people who’ve been given permission to hunt on that property. Doesn’t exactly take the World’s Greatest Detective to figure out who the shooter was.

Coming forward was the right thing for this guy to do, but it’s not as if he had a chance of getting away with it otherwise.

I just think it reflects an appalling lack of situational awareness to think that a guy could be hunting in the suburbs, in the evening, at right about the time when people are coming home from work and getting out walking their dogs before it gets dark, and this dog owner is somewhere in the background calling “TONKA! TOOOOONNNKKAAAA!!! Here, Boy!” And it evidently didn’t occur to this guy that somebody’s dog had gotten off the leash.

Bottom line is that this guy screwed up, and you are either willing to make excuses for him, or you are not.

I am not. And I don’t think anyone else should be either. I do think this is one of those stories that I like to be told in every Hunter Ed class in the country from now till the end of time, because these are the sorts of Bad Decisions that affect everyone who wants to be able to hunt in this country.

If you’re not part of the Solution....

From: Rut Nut
20-Oct-17
There are cases where coyotes have attacked or tried to attack small children. I remember reading a newspaper article of an infant that was taken out of a bassinet on a back porch years ago. The mother stepped inside for a moment to get something and when she came back the infant was gone. Luckily, it didn't get far and the mother found the coyote nearby dragging the infant away into the woods. Think this was in CT, but can't remember what state for sure.

From: HerdManager
20-Oct-17
I grew up in NJ, and people there who have woods behind their houses typically let their dogs run loose. Doesn't matter who owns it, people just assume it's ok to let their pets roam free. I've seen it SO many times. Everyone assumes their dog would never run deer, or kill wildlife. Your typical suburban dog owner is completely ignorant about the damage a dog does when let free in the woods.

From: GF
20-Oct-17
A LOT of small children have been attacked by coyotes… Probably a lot more than the number of dogs that have been shot when incorrectly identified as coyotes. We know a family locally whose daughter (3 or 4 years at the time) was attacked by a coyote within 1 mile of I-95 just over the line in Westchester, which - for those of you not familiar - is a very popular suburban living area among well-to-do folks who work in NYC. Now, as it turns out… That particular coyote was rabid, but just evidence that there are plenty of them around.

But that is why… If you go back all the way to my first post on this thread… I did specifically mention that the calculus can change a bit if the owner of the property that you’re hunting has mentioned that there has been a problem with large, aggressive coyotes in the area.... I had that exact scenario crop up on one property that I was hunting were the owner's Vet had told him straight up that the only way he was taking his dog home this time was in an Urn, because he (the Vet) was DONE salvaging Coyote-mauled pets and that he would stitch up the dog one last time ONLY if the Vet could find her a new home.

Maybe the important point here is that not everyone who hunts for deer is actually qualified to make a judgment call as to whether a particular canid is a latrans or a lupus or some kind of mix?

From: Scar Finga
20-Oct-17
I know quite a few farmers/ ranchers that kill every dog they see on their property and I know a few that have told us to do the same. They don't care who owns the dog if it's on their property. However this is usually not in neighborhood type locations.

Growing up, I had a miniature collie that was a show dog, he was very docile and timid. we had to leave him with some friends for about a year or so that lived on 60 acres out in the sticks... He turned pretty wild very quickly. He would kill rabbits, birds, etc. He would chase anything that that would come around, including deer. We didn't find out about this until after the fact. Well, someone shot him... I guess he went on a neighbors property and was reeking havoc. broke my heart as a kid, but I understand as an adult.

From: LINK
20-Oct-17
Herdmanager my dog runs lose on my 200 acres. He doesn't cross the county road(nearest boundary) and doesn't run deer or coyotes. Some dog lovers don't like it but a shock collar will go along ways in teaching a good dog what's acceptable. A dog that's not a good one needs penned up.

From: Bou'bound
20-Oct-17
Sad All the way around

21-Oct-17
There was fault on both ends. However, I can't imagine I would shoot a Coyote within 450 feet of a housing development. I know that is where they are likely to be due to the nature of the coyote. But, there is a part of me that I'm pretty sure, would over rule the possibility of shooting it in faint light due to the probability of it being a dog. But, who knows really? I've read that the most experienced hunters are generally the ones involved in accidental shootings. So, I don't think I can be overly confident in how big an idiot this guy was either.

These people were at "home". I understand that they were walking the dog but, this was their home. So, I don't get the "letting them run lose" mentality being used here as a defense of the guy's actions. He made a mistake. One he will pay for. One I'm sure he is having to live with. The people did too by allowing their dog to do things like this. A dog is only going to be as good as its discipline. If you choose to walk your dog leash free, you'd better be sure they know when you give them a command, to follow that command. When they don't, it is up to you to make them understand that the next time, it'll be in their interest to do so. So, these people need t rethink their approach too. I'm not sure how they feel about deer. And, being a suburban home owner living with them, it likely wasn't good feelings either. But, this dog's actions would have escalated too. Wouldn't have been long before he was trailing them for miles with no better discipline then it expressed when she hollered at it to come back.

It's an unfortunate circumstance for sure. God Bless

From: Trial153
21-Oct-17
Something that is not being discussed is the aggravation and issues that maybe incurring for the landowner who allowed this hunter to hunt on their land. The repercussions of this misjudgment for them need to be considered. Some actions Will never have enough upside to justify the potential down side. This a great example of that. It pains me to see the level of acceptance and justification from members on here for this action.

From: BOX CALL
21-Oct-17
I got a bunch of damn barking neighborhood dogs I'd like to send an arrow thru.owners don't care,damn dogs bark until midnight.i m not a dog owner and have an ear problem that dogs barking aggravates.when we was on the farm,we had drives to shoot sheep chasing dogs.dogs shouldn't be loose chasing deer unless hunting.

From: BOX CALL
21-Oct-17
I've caught several people walking their dogs and letting them crap in my front yard.I've given them Kroger bags ,they had no intention of cleaning up after their dogs.if a dogs running loose and chasing deer or even after kids,fair game.

From: BOX CALL
21-Oct-17
One more tidbit,when my son was in high school and got off the bus,a neighbor at the corner would let his four yappy chiwawa dogs out to nip at the kids .told my son to kick the crap out of them trying to bite him.it worked.neighbor is a fool.

From: Matt
21-Oct-17
In some places, people are within their rights to kill a neighbor's dog if it is chasing livestock or wildlife. A leash would be the easiest solution to avert similar situations in the future. Or keeping your dog on your own property. It seems overbearing to require a landowner to post their property and advise its neighbors of what they intend to do or let someone else do on their own property.

Ironically, there are coyotes in my suburban neighborhood (3-4 miles from appropriate habitat) and they have killed quite a few outdoor cats in recent months. Keeping those cats indoors would not only save their lives but keep coyotes out of our neighborhood.

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