The scouting service thread got me thinking - if someone who drew a super-limited tag (or an outfitter guiding him) offered you a hefty finder's fee to find a trophy animal for him, would you do it? Even knowing some hard-working DIY hunter is likely scouting and watching that same animal?
On the other side, if you drew the tag and someone offered to sell you the location of a specific monster, keep tabs on it until you arrive, would you pay for it?
I have declined offers to find animals for a fee because I don't believe in that aspect of "hunting". When I guided, I took my hunters on a "hunt", not to a target. But obviously others have no problem with the practice, including some famous hunters. And it's not too far removed from the "Mossback" practice of teams of guys following an animal around, intimidating DIY hunters away, until the paying hunter gets there. Or even a high-dollar guide staying on a big moose half the summer until his sport shows up.
That is the most pure form of the prostitution of nature, and "unfair" chase in my opinion, because it is still considered "hunting". Unlike the pen killers of the world. I will have NOTHING to do with it on either end. JMHO
What is the difference of being guided? Have a large party like often see in Utah on elk and sheep in other states. I never considered for myself but do not see the any compromise differences between the aforementioned situations.
How about this. You’re hiking in a 20+ point unit and come across a 400” bull in a spot nobody would hunt. Someone sees your picture and offers you 10k for the location!! Who’s telling the guy to pound sand?
what is the difference in paying someone to tell you where a big animal is and getting a call from a friend and him telling you where one is? i know money changes hands in one case and not in the other but the sporting fair chase aspect seems the same to me. im not saying its right or wrong just another point of view. People have asked me about areas i have hunted and guided and i usually tell them what i know about it including where i have seen big animals. once again not saying its right or wrong just how i look at it.
Not me. I wouldn’t pay as the animal killed does not define my trophy. To me the process of the hunt it self and all the effort that goes into the prep, physical conditioning and just the act of me versus them is what I cherish. 200” bull or 400” bull. No difference to me. I have killed 200” mule deer and plenty of forked horns. Each one of them is as great a trophy. But that is me. To each their own. I love the hunt. God Bless!
I used to be involved with the guys that were always looking to the govener's tag holder for elk and mule deer in Colorado and New Mexico. We found the 2008 and 2009 bull in New Mexico, sat on the bull for three days, providing video of the bull before they called to accept it. It was fun!! Big Colorado and New Mexico mule deer are always fun to chase. Hours, days, weeks trying to find the biggest buck you can. It takes a lot of work, dedication, and extremely knowledge of the animals and their behavior and great knowledge of the terrain. These bucks were killed on the rutting grounds, and it was a blast!! Hours and days were spent behind glass, cruising sage flats and then following the animals to their beds. It was a lot of work, and great satisfaction when your buck was choosen.
You're still using your skills and knowledge, still hunting these animals, just not the one pulling the trigger. I know outfitters that pay finders fees to someone calling in big lion tracks or a fresh lion kill. Several guys I know will make decent weekend money cruising and calling in these tracks. It was a great way to spend time in God's country, with a great friend, looking for the biggest bull or buck in the state!!
i know money changes hands just like on a guided hunt i personally see a problem with it but i have guided and been paid to do it so my point of view might be slanted a little.
If I found an exceptional animal, I’d only pass that on to a friend. And no money gets passed between friends in that type of situation. I have no problem giving general information on good spots to hunt to most people that ask. A few, you know right away are dicks and those get nothing.
Would I pay for a specific animal? No. I have paid a trespass fee though.
How about if you were looking to book a guided elk hunt for a real good bull and you were down to three outfits. #3 phones as you’re deliberating and says, “ I’m sitting on a giant bull!! He could be yours for a little extra trophy fee.”
I was an outfitter and spent many years in the outdoor industry so I'm not opposed to making money from hunting. That said, how we have put a price tag on trophy animals has diminished hunting.
I'm glad I don't care about trophy antlers anymore and just enjoy hunting, killing, and eating so this kind of stuff doesn't eat me up. So, no, I wouldn't pay for location info of a giant or any other animal.
As far as getting paid to reveal the location of a trophy, that's never going to happen because I'm not going to be seeking them out like Buglmin.
If an outfitter books 2 clients to hunt elk..... and then offers hunter A to kill the big bull he has located at an additional fee... To me that's not fair to the client who paid the regular fee....
It's like putting the TV show guys on all your best Bear baits because they're going to make a TV show.....
Unfortunately, lots of hunting is done that way. There is a "waiting list" of hunters for the call to get to Alaska for a large sheep or moose. Same in Montana for trophy elk. On a lesser scale, many mountain lion tracks are "called in" by truckers and others.
It is amazing what hunting has evolved into, not so good in my opinion.
Missouri..... So there's a waiting list for an open hunt.....??
Or guys that are on a waiting list waiting for a call that the outfitter just located a huge bull moose or sheep.... Then he drops everything and goes to Alaska to harvest that animal ?? That sounds crazy !!
lol. money whores? Some mighyt words to describe someone that has the time, knowledge and skills to find animals on public land that seek the hardest, roughest spots to reach to spend the winter. The guys that find the govener animals are very very good at what they do, and deserve the money they collect. Do you have what it takes??
Seems most guys have high opinions and think very highly of themselves on something they've never tried and have no experience doing... Most govener tags in New Mexico and mule deer tags in Colorado are killed late in the year, when most folks are sitting at home, out of the wind and snow, enjoying their fires and families. The time, effort, equipment, wear and tear on vehicles don't really justify the money they receive. Most do it cause they love it, enjoy it. And these guys are called every year by the outfitters involved because they are good and can be counted on to find the best in very bad weather and rough country.
Do you have experience doing this? Do you have the knowledge, skills, time, the drive? If you did, you'd be the ones the outfitters are calling, you'd be the one collecting the bounty for your hard work and long hours. Opinions are just opinions, words spoken from ones that that no knowledge or experience doing this type of work. I've done it, enjoyed it, loved it, collected the money for the bounty, and been pleased when the trigger had been pulled!! Money whore? Or just someone that loves hunting, chasin, and is very good at doing what he loves...
There was a story a few years ago about an outfitter treed a big mountain lion. He called his client back east to fly out in private jet to shoot it. Cat was kept in the tree for nearly a full day while hunter was in route. That should be illegal
Big Bear, Guys are on waiting lists for a call from an outfitter. Rarely, are the average paid clients knowingly going to be taken to these animals. You may stumble on one yes, but the known and previously spotted trophies are oftentimes awaiting the hunter to arrive with his check in hand.
I have no dog in this fight, but the following comes to mind. People are gonna do what people do, whether illegal or not, ethical or not, and it ain't gonna be solved here.
Do any of you guys spend time on the Monstermuleys website? Founder.....the guy that runs that website has actually been doing this for the past few years in Wyo for trophy muledeer. There is currently legislation in Wyo trying to make this kind of practice illegal. I know another guy here in Colo that is doing something similar. If interested you might take a look at some of the posts on the monstermuley website.
A man goes into a small, country bar and orders a drink from the middle aged, very good looking waitress.
When ordering the second drink, he offers her three thousand dollars to sleep with him. She storms off angry and indignant. After thinking about it for awhile and realizing how little time it would take to earn a lot money, she makes her way back to man and says yes she would sleep with him.
He asks, “ how about $2,000?”
A little perturbed but still wanting the money she responds positively.
“Then what about $1,000?”
Angry now, she curtly snaps “yes!”
“$500?”
Red faced and mad she yells at him ”what do you think I am, just some whore?!?!
“Well ma’am, we established with the first offer what you are, now we’re just negotiating.”
Bugle boys flare up a few posts earlier only confirms that The practice of guiding has evolved into a money game, brings out the worst in people, and is ruining the sport for most. The discussion is not about a man (or woman's) right to make a living. This is about short-term selfish decisions vs long term decisions for the greater good. I've yet to hear a logical reason as to why "guiding", or canned deer farm hunts shouldn't be banned.
I really like the way some draw conclusions on a theoretical question.
Lots of people on here go guided so what is the difference? Exactly none!
I went on one guided hunt to Alberta because a friend of forty years asked me to join him.
Wapitibob, those states legislating against this action are not doing it out of principle. They are either in bed with the outfitters association or mad because they cannot make money off of the transaction or both.
As far as whoring out western game no state does it better than Colorado but for all it has become a money game. The same is true for Iowa where we wait for enough points but they have a big dollar celebrity tag that most cannot or will not afford.
I have seen many post on bowsite for governor’s or or auctioned off tags that everyone drooled over.
I learned a long time ago to not condemn a legal action so not to give the anti hunters any ammunition to be used against us. Also, I see gun harvested animals all the time posted in several manners but just appreciate it for what it is.
As far as ethics are concerned I gun killed a brown bear many years ago and even though I legally could do it I chose not to. I have several Alaskan friends who abide that one is enough. I have since made the determination that if I get a chance to bow hunt these great animals I will do it again.
I see so much misinformation and opined comments that have zero factual basis slide the litmus often enough to where I wonder where the internet police are. It is like the comment on does creating scrapes. Bottom line is that if you see a scrape you can assume that a buck made it. A better one was where It was best to chase after just shot deer. I know, I know that there are situations but that is for guys that are not asking how while on a blood trail.
Sorry for the rant but this thread was starting sound like very one sided without the critical thinking that I would think that Jaqoumo was looking for when he posted.
No and no. I like finding and hunting my own animals, however small they may be, and I also like being a generous person with information when a like-minded person is looking for hunting info.
When I was a guide back in 05-08', I was told by a very large outfitter that if I could find the governor's tag holder s whitetail over 200" my part would be $7k-$10k. I had to believe the guy because he had guided 200" mule deer in his home state to the same tag holders.
I don’t get it. The more I read the best analogy that comes to mind would be having an intimate relationship with your wife or paying a prostitute big money for a romp in the hay. Maybe I am just old fashioned but I prefer my wife. Anyhow maybe is just may age or that I have “trophies” on the wall is easy for me to say no. Think I could equate it to fishin at a trout farm, catching a 10 lb rainbow and mounting it. Nothing good comes easy and if money can buy it to me it’s no longer good. I don’t know... just me thinking out loud.
Jaquomo, you have a knack for delving into scenarios that are "wedge issues" . Reading the posts here, seeing some take one side or the other, and some remain neutral (somehow). I'm entertained, but weigh in on the side of Trial 153. It will be the downfall of us all, eventually.
I'd never pay money for the location of an animal, but I'd never go on a guided hunt either. It's not for some "holier-then-thou" reasoning, but rather that I enjoy the entire process from the scouting to the eating and want the holistic experience. I just plain and simply get more satisfaction from a smaller DIY animal than I ever would from a larger animal to which I'd been guided, even if it were a world record.
That said, I really don't see much difference between guiding and paying for the location of a specific animal. Both are paying a professional hunter to make your hunt easier/more successful for a certain type or class of animal.
To me, hunting is: Scouting, going afield to find an animal, pursuing the animal, killing the animal, processing the animal, and eating the animal or using its pelt for some purpose. Some hunters only prefer to perform 1 or more of those actions and it's still hunting, they're just not completing all the parts of hunting on their own, instead preferring to pay a professional to complete 1 or more of the parts of the hunt.
I get it. I understand. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that, it's just not how I hunt.
I would take money to guide another hunter and I'd take money for information that I had gathered. Neither are for me, but I feel that they're both either intrinsically wrong or they aren't. To each their own.
The chances of this ever being an issue for me are very slim. But . . .
I would pay a nominal fee for good information. Not necessarily animal specific. But unit specific for sure. Several guys really gave me awesome info on a hard to draw Nevada elk hunt a couple years ago. I ended up eating that tag. “The” guide for that area wanted $8k for 6 days. I just couldn’t do it. But I coulda paid a grand or so for info . . .and probably woulda done so. I didn’t want the biggest bull in Nevada. But I did want a big bull . . .
Likewise, if, say, I was tagged out at home and found a monster buck and someone offered me money for help or info to kill that buck. . . I might do it. Who knows?
This hunting thing isn’t my religion. I’m not on a spiritual quest with my hunting. I’ve got a family to support. That takes money. If it’s legal, and done right, I don’t believe I’d have ethical qualms about it.
I'm with Idyll and a few others. Not something I would do, but I see absolutely zero difference between paying someone a fee to keep tabs on a specific animal, or paying someone a fee to guide you to an animal, specific or not.
By the same token, if someone offers me a few grand to give the location of an animal that shows up on my trailcam, not only would I take the money, I'd show him the friggin' tree it was standing under!
I drew a high country muley rifle tag non-resident a few years back ... I used I dunno, 13 or 14 PP's I had to get it.
I hired a finding service, can't remember their name now ... every few weeks he'd send me a couple of spotting scope photo's, and the area's he saw the big ones.
Day before season I was hiking into one of the areas, me and another guy who was with me. 1/2 way to the Spot, we met another couple of guys muley hunting. We were ahead of them, they caught up to us. We talked for a bit , they were locals, scouted the area all summer. I told them where we were headed and they said them too - then asked if I used that service/guy and I said yeah.
They said look, there are two big bucks there, a typical and a non-typical. They wanted the big typical IIRC, and said they hoped we wouldn't bump those bucks out being in the same area and all and off they went.
I felt bad, I really did. Farther we walked, the more it bothered me that these guys spent the time to find the bucks, I spent the money.
At the last fork in the trail, right went to the Spot, left went into another bowl .... we went left. I told my buddy that I'd hunt that secondary bowl a couple of days, then go into the Spot bowl ..... giving those locals first dibs. I felt better doing that.
Never used a finding service before, never will again, wish I hadn't then.
We live in the information age, and information is worth money to those willing to pay for it. As long as it's legal I don't see a problem with paying for info an a particular animal. It's up to each individual to decide what is moral for them, and what is not. We certainly don't want the state to start governing our hunting morals, they already make enough laws that make no sense to some of us, and perfect sense to others. Besides, to outlaw "bounty hunting" or "bounty hunters" for animals would be impossible to enforce. You're asking the state to control information that is legally obtained, a very slippery slope that would be bad for the whole industry. Everyone who is licensed to hunt public land in a particular state has the right to do so.
This is a hard one for me. All my hunts are DIY, but I'm not sure if I drew a very limited tag in another state I wouldn't use it, if I had the money. (which I don't) In my home state I don't ever think I would use someone else's services like that. I am pretty proud of the critters I get doing it DIY.
On the other hand I don't really begrudge the type of service mentioned. It's a free country, and not everyone has the same goals, time, commitment, etc...
If I was offered a "hefty fee" to find a good animal for someone, I'm pretty sure I would take it, and feel good knowing I helped someone reach their goal, and take pride in my ability to find a good animal that made someone else happy. Heck, I help people kill stuff for free now as it is, and give info to a few here and there with nothing in return besides a thank you.
I know Doyle Moss personally, and like him. I can understand why some guys get hard feelings about an outfit like his, but, to me, he just takes it a step further than a regular outfitting service. Normal outfitters don't have the time or resources to locate a specific animal and then sit on him for a month. However, they do almost the same thing in that they scout stand locations, water holes, hang stands, put out trail cameras, and try to put you on specific animals they know of in a given area. I fail to see how that is more prestigious than what Mossback does. It's the pretty much the same thing, just a level higher with more time committed to a specific animal, and it's certainly not a give me, canned hunting.
I have shared maps/intel for many states with many fellow hunters and never expected nor wanted anything in return other than a 'Thank You' and my maps/DVD mailed back to me.
Did not know this type of stuff even occurred. If it is legal, then so be it.
I have never been interested in getting the biggest, so no I would not pay. And could not help someone else get the biggest, not good enough, so no again. But I do pay for an outfitter to bear hunt, but just looking for a mature/average specimen.
As stated, I am a DIY guy but I see no problem for a guy that waits 10 to 15 years to maximize his investment. He has to use the resources available and he still has to hunt the animal. This is no different than using a guide.
No one owns animals so if the nonresident is your problem then suck it up. If guides are your problem so be it. For those that use guides and consider this a step in the wrong direction then you should reconsider using a guide. As for locals feeling their grand superiority then dr I’ve 2 thousand miles and try to kill a 150 inch whitetail on public land. I would not be so quick to think that I can judge people accurately based on a philosophical question. I enjoy the debate for what it is. Many people frame their thought process based on their capabilities, resources, and experiences. I loathe the thought of flying to an observed animal and running out shooting said animal and then boarding a plane. I have zero problem with a guy that pays a scouting service. What is the difference if a bowsite giives you a sweet spot? I do have problems with the commercialization of hunting but hope that Pat makes a killing off of bowsite.
These are double edged swords so we must be careful in our sel righteous condemnation.
Elkster, pretty much everything in hunting these days seems to be a "wedge issue". ;)
I started this thread out of honest curiosity. I wanted to get the perspectives of those I respect. The examples I gave were of being paid - or paying for - the location of a specific trophy animal, not for info on a general area. The finders fee stories surrounding the "Spider Bull" seem to illustrate the worst of this, but there are many other examples of people being paid to find and guard a specific animal which include assaults, intimidation, road blocks, damaged vehicles, etc.. In the other thread I described the illegal outfitter who was following me in the dark to locate "my" big bull so he could sell it to a hunter who was willing to shoot it out of season.
On the other side, I see nothing wrong with paying someone legitimate for general information on an area to give the hunter a place to start. I've done this MANY times for free for Bowsiters I've never met, as have some for me. The information BOHNTR shared with me was way over the top generous, including camping spots, glassing spots, travel saddles, bedding areas. All he asked was that I not share it with anyone else. Absent that, I might have paid someone a reasonable fee for the same information if he has a credible track record.
From here it appears not much different from guiding so long as the guy giving the info isn't breaking the law, isn't selling to multiple hunters in the same season, and the information is legit. But as others have pointed out, If I knew where a 180" Shiras was in my area and somebody offered me $10K to give up the location, I'd have a real hard time turning it down. As it is, I've done something similar for a couple Bowsiters who drew moose tags in my area and didn't expect anything in return besides good karma, goes-around-comes-around.
I don't really think it is all that different from going on a guided hunt. I'm not going to book with someone who doesn't have big critters in the area. As long as it is still hunting, meaning I have to get out and do my part, I have no problem with it.
Lot of guys have asked what's the difference between this and a guide....
JMO... If I were paying a guide, I'd be paying for Access to an area I might not otherwise be able to hunt and Expertise - IOW, I'd expect the guide to teach me how to hunt that for that Species - not just to get me onto a specific animal so I could pull the trigger on it.
So what's the difference? For me, it's just that I want to learn how to (or more about how to) do something that is relatively difficult and (to me) more rewarding the harder I have to work at it. I'd love to get lucky one day and get a really nice specimen - an Elk or Mulie, especially, that I could put up on a wall - but I have no particular need to invest huge amounts of ANYTHING specifically so that I can get a "book" animal because I just don't buy the logic that says that they guys who shoot more & bigger "trophies" are somehow proving that they are "better" hunters than anybody else - and this thread just points out one more reason to doubt it.
We live in a capitalist society, so naturally, whoever is willing to pay the most for the biggest and the "best" will surely end up with it....
Means Jack.
A guy who gets out on public land and solves the riddle on his own... that's the kind of hunter I admire because it's the kind of hunter I aspire to be.
Nope. Just another of my quirks. I do my own processing too. There's no doubt that I could get better results if I paid someone, but I get a sense of satisfaction out of my efforts.
Seems some see finders fees the same as outfitted hunts. Interesting. Outfitted hunts are also defined as having a transportation element including packing people, supplies, and meat out. Outfitted hunts are MORE than finders fees.
I listened to a sermon today at church about JOY. Pastor said joy involves trust, contentment, gratitude, and peace in your renewed relationship with God. Made me think about what drives this commercialization of wildlife we see in hunting. I wonder if it is a lack of contentment, unless you kill the biggest critter on the mountain?
Next year, I think I will shoot the first raghorn I see, and be content, and grateful.
No & no. But did heavily tip a logger in NH in 2012 who put me on a trophy moose then later bent over backwards to get the bull out of the clear cut with his Skidder at midnight. Guy never even spoke of money but I knew the rates for that area.
I’ve helped many over the years in limited draw areas, and had the same returned to me. All out of courtesy. That’s the way to go for the DIYer.
I think this practice is pretty common for high dollar sheep hunts, especially the auction tags that often go in excess of $100K. You often have a "team" of spotters in the field several weeks to when the hunter arrives. The hunter goes to where the biggest ram was spotted the day prior. I'm not sure there is much difference between a true guided hunt and someone selling the location of a big one. On a true guided hunt the guide has pre-scouted the area and knows where you are most likely to find a nice shooter. I have no issues with a fully guided hunt but would not have much interest in someone wanting to sell me the location of a really big one. (Is that really much different than your best hunting bud putting you onto a big one?)
Good discussion and thanks for keeping it civil. I guess the way some see it, your buddy putting you into a good animal is more of the "traditional" hunter-helping-fellow-hunter way between folks with a real relationship, no commercialization involved, vs. someone like me going out and finding a big moose, then advertising it for sale on Craigslist or otherwise and selling it to some celebrity hunter who flies in with a film crew for a quick trophy hunt. (I was offered that opportunity, but declined). But then if I was a licensed guide and did that, would there be that much difference in the latter? I don't know but it's mostly why I quit guiding.
Some see a difference in the principles behind the practices.
I remeber back when I could draw a Rio Arriba county (unit 2) deer tag in NM fairly "easy". Not anymore because big deer have been scouted, shot, and publicized. Now everyone wants a chance at a big muley in NM because a gov'rnrs tag was filled in Dec during, the rut, from 509 yds with a rifle.
Tough to say - turning down $30k for finding and knowing where a 220" buck was hanging out (I say $30k, because if I had that knowledge, I set the price...).
I see no ethical difference in paying for room and board and to be taken to a good animal or paying for coordinates to a good animal. The same in selling both, not any different. Guided hunts are killing not hunting. No saying I wouldn’t go on a killing trip, just calling it what it is. I don’t make a habit out of paying others to hunt for me. Would I purchase intel? At a very small price, maybe lol. Would I sell intell? Not likely but I suppose money talks, I would have to see how much was being offered before I could answer that.
I do my own processing as well, and agree 100%. I processed all 10 animals my wife and I shot this year. It was a ton of work, but I don't regret it a bit. Like you said, there is something very satisfying in looking at all that meat in the freezer, knowing that I was the sole instrument from field to plate. A couple years ago I decided to let a processor do some of my animals. The specialty meats were nice, as was not having to deal with it, but weirdly enough it took a little of the enjoyment out of the eating process for me. That, and I wasn't giddy about the bill. I'm starting to get into making specialty meats myself now (various sausages, etc). I just brought some back home to my family in the Midwest, and it was neat hearing and seeing them enjoy the finished product. I also LOVE teaching my kids about where their food comes from, and the cycle of life......
Grasshopper,
I very much agree with your assessment. The Bible says "godliness with contentment is great gain" What I believe we're seeing in this society is an attempt to fill the God sized void, and scratch the itch that we all have. Folks try to that through any means available, other than God. Doesn't matter if it's a bigger house, a nicer car, more, $, a prettier woman, a bigger hunting trophy, and the list goes on...... It’s the human condition.
However, I don't think there's is anything intrinsically wrong with being a trophy hunter. For me personally I really like the challenge and sense of accomplishment I get from harvesting the best animal I can. I also get a ton of enjoyment shooting a yearling doe, as well as a trophy buck or bull. Different for sure, but both super fun and exciting each in their own way. I always say "I'm an equal opportunity killer!"
HDE... finally someone who gets it, the golden rule ie whoever has the gold makes the rules...
Jaq, seems to me if you poll a group of 4'6" guys about whether dunking the ball should be legal and if they would do it your results will be somewhat predictable.
Missouri breaks those hunters are still hunting, they’ve just farmed our 90% of the hunt. They have to by law and as I implied I’m not above paying a guide to get me a leopard if I can justify the price tag. Paying for someone else’s knowledge and skill is just that, no matter how you slice it.
Interesting folks would help a buddy but not do the same commercially out of any claims of "fair chase." There is no existential difference between paying a finder's fee and having a buddy call up saying, "Hey, we glassed up a ________. Watched him 'til nightfall and no one bumped him. He should be there in the morning." No difference. Both scenarios convey extra-personal locating modalities. Both comprise "unearned" hunt intel.
The exchange of money, the commercialization of the information, ruffles feathers because it interjects an exclusionary element, namely the availability of financial resources, into the mix and that is a threat. So people are reacting to the prospect of exclusion. And that's valid. However, it is no "less fair chase" than getting a tip from a friend.
A friend of mine joined me for a weekend, and I showed him a good spot where I have had good luck. He shot a small buck and bought me a beer later that night. I accepted the finders fee with no regrets.
Many hunters live in metropolitan areas and other states, outfitters provide a good means to allow them to partake in hunting. I think many of us who have ready access to rural America forget the important service outfitters can provide to those who are not so fortunate. Rural hunters spend money in other ways to get their game...... such as ATV's, trail cameras, gps, travel, hotels, campers, food plots, equipment etc. The city and non resident hunter "rents" those amenities from the outfitting service. I think it is important not to paint with a broad brush.
Missouri I’ve hunted NR, more than 10 hours from the house, several times and never paid an outfitter. I understand why many do but there’s no need to sugar coat it.
Many non residents are not so lucky to be only a ten hour drive away. I have hunted Africa and Alaska as well as much of America that is a two day trip. Work does not always allow flexibility for every hunter. Many hunters are DIY, but also at times hire a guiding service, I see nothing wrong with that. I would say in my case it is 75% DIY but I have hired a guiding service where it made sense or the law required it... such as Alaska brown bear and sheep hunts. I make no apologies.
Owl - I agree with you on an objective level. However there's still a difference to me. It's almost as though the freely disseminated information is a gift. It's not contractual. That I've somehow been worthy of being given that gift. And the kids and I enjoy processing the results of any resulting gifts, like deerslayer.
I speak only for myself, not others and they're my quirks. I'm not proselytizing. Though I wish that the wilderness areas in WY did not require a guide.
Wyoming just introduced a bill against selling big game locations. A few weeks ago there was an app that popped up on social media where people could sell the location of big game animals. You could even sell mountain lion tracks to houndsman. Below is an article that explains it a little more.
I see nothing wrong with it either Missouri, I just see it for what it is. Like most I don’t get 8 weeks of vacation a year either. This September a friend drove three hours to my house to pick me up at 6. We drove all night, neither of us sleeping, got to our spot at 5:30am, slapped on some camo and hiked in to hunt elk. We stayed hunting through Friday and came home. Now I know there’s nothing special about that and many do it. Just not many that pay someone else to find their animals and get them close.
BTW 10-12 hours isn’t close enough for me to justify vacation for scouting, and if I drove on to Idaho I still wouldn’t pay a guide to hunt for me.
Not slamming anyone, I fund my hunting partially in part by using some of my vacation to guide guys that want their hand held, some on their own land. I get it, why take two weeks vacation or risk going home with a tag when you can pay someone to ensure success in 5 days. I really don’t care but I just don’t see the moral high ground in doing that as opposed to paying someone to point you to a good spot or a big animal.
Jaq, my analogy was not based on the guide client end but on this audience, the pollees (is that a noun?) To have a meaningful opinion one must have the cash to pay (buyer) or the ability to deliver... (seller) Most (virtually all) on these forums have a lack of both. How many of those saying no (having never heard the offer amount nor size/availability of animal) could produce either end of this equation? scant few I reckon. In reality none, or so few as to be equivalent.
When you have the ability to hand off, which is what it amounts to, a world class animal and then you say no... at that point your sincerity is bona fide. When glassing across a fence and the landowner says for $xx you can shoot across, and $xx is IN YOUR WALLET and you drive off to look elsewhere... at that point your sincerity is beyond doubt.
All this other stuff is just guys on a comfy couch saying they would have held fast at Bastogne, well.... maybe
Until I read this thread, I had no idea that using an outfitter/guide was such a slam dunk and was that easy. I have been on 15+ guided hunts and most of them did not result in me shooting at anything. I guess I was robbed and should demand a refund!
“ I have been on 15+ guided hunts and most of them did not result in me shooting at anything. I guess I was robbed and should demand a refund!”
Yes you were definitely robbed. If you were hunting with outfitters that don’t offer a shot opportunity well above 50% you were fleeced. I can’t imagine paying for a guide and not getting a shot more often than not. That says a lot about either the outfitter chosen or the hunter, take your pick.
Right Ohio, not a dunk but a free throw in an empty gym. Sure Ollie I’ve only been the guide never the guidee, if that disqualifies me on what outfitters offer for shot statistics, so be it. One of my hunters this year was 60 years old 35 lbs overweight and has been 6 for 8 on bulls on his last 8 bow hunts. By his own admission he told he’s guid he wouldn’t go after a bull across the valley, to tough. These are 270 type bulls in an otc unit so I’d say Ollie either has the wrong outfit or he’s holding out for a booner.
I've said no a few times, but the money is tempting all the same.
I helped a friend on his Nevada elk hunt this year. We found out the hard way that every monster bull out that way has a $10,000 bounty on it's head. The shooter was summoned and we watched it fall from the gun shot right in front of us during the archery hunt.
Here's the video of our morning hunt on what might have been the second largest bull elk ever taken with a bow :(
Definitely know what it feels like to be on the other side of the coin from one of these wealth tag boondoggles. Reinforces my belief that they need to at least make these guys hunt with the weapon that is open at the time, much less banning all these money grubbers to begin with.
May they be blinded stumble around lost when the big one of a lifetime comes your way and you get the blessing of seeing one of these true giants first hand. It's still pretty amazing !!!
Would it be a wedge issue if it were 2 point for $20?? Everyone knows it would not be on anyone's radar if that were true. Eliminate the tags and rid yourselves of the wedgie. Good luck on convincing all the pigs at the trough of your good intentions outweighing their bottom line. And by pigs i'm not referring to the little ones fighting for scraps, I'm talking about the big boars that get their share year in and year out.
Steps have been made here, it helps, some, 12/1 is a world away from 1/1 for the clock striking midnight.
I got an ad from an company that books hunts for outfitters. They were advertising a desert sheep hunt in Mexico at a reduced price ( to me , a reduced price on desert sheep hunt raised one eye brow). The next part is when they found a trophy ram a guide would camp on the animal till the hunter arrived on the scene (this raised my other eye brow). Am I seeing things straight here?
C3..... can you expand on what happened ? At what point did you realize there were gun hunters hunting the bull ? Were you guiding your friend into the bull via a 2 way radio ? Is that common ?
why by all means Jaq let me be more blunt, do we agree this is a gov tag specific issue? While it is certainly possible for a finders fee to be paid by an OTC hunter i have never heard of such. If you agree then the Mark (the hunter ) has a working budget of 500 K to put a dead animal on the wall Of this a finders fee of $50 k = 10% leaving 90% for the people that cash in EVERY YEAR. Finders fees being catching lightening in a bottle for most of the recipients of such. Do you really think the recipients of this huge influx of cash are going to sit by and have it eliminated because of peons with pitchforks?
Keep the raffle but do you not see that this was just a bone to throw to the pitchfork crowd to keep them at bay? Without the huge influx from the auction tag political support evaporates at the high levels.
Pick your acronym hunting organization, and any one of a half dozen privateers as the ones who split this 450K windfall each and every year, if I named them it would elicit howling of "not us we are the pure of heart", but if you do just a smidgen of thinking you can figure it out.
I gotta go eat now as I have the munchies! I can dumb it down a few more grade levels if required, just ask...
"To have a meaningful opinion one must have the cash to pay (buyer) or the ability to deliver... (seller) Most (virtually all) on these forums have a lack of both."
That's a broad assessment based on a guess. It's your opinion only. And it's not necessarily true. There are tons of people on this board, many who don't even post, who are capable of one or both and don't.
Squirrel, your last post is a bit less obtuse. Seems like you brought it up a couple grade levels. I think I interpreted it as associating "finders fees" with auction tags, and therefore auction tags are somehow wrong. But it happens with all highly limited drawing tags, and even with readily available tags for hunters with the means but not the time to scout. Most auction tag hunters book with outfitters. Some of the outfitters will pay finders fees, but not just for the auction tag hunter. Some guys who will likely never draw a tag in that unit may choose to locate big animals for fun and profit. Finders fees are legal - for now. The financial benefit of auction tags to the organizations that gain from them far outweighs the downside (is there a downside besides class-envy?)
And it could, and very well may, happen with OTC tags. There have been some serious monster elk killed in CO recently in OTC units. 400"+ bulls. I also know of situations where outfitters have offered landowners $$$ to allow them to bring a client in to shoot a big animal they've glassed across the fence. Again, that's perfectly legal.
In my OP I simply started a discussion about whether hunters on this forum would pay or accept a finders fee for a SPECIFIC ANIMAL. As usual with Bowsite threads, it has morphed into a hydra. Outfitters. Success on guided hunts vs. unguided. Paying someone to process game meat. Ethics of guided hunts vs DIY-only. Ethics of hunting for a mature animal. Pigs eating at a trough. The relative poverty level and lack of hunting skill of "virtually all" Bowsiters.
So to my original question, if someone offered you, let's say $1000, to give up the location of a 180" Shiras in a unit where you don't have a tag and your odds of ever drawing a tag are astronomically low, would you do it?
"Wives are not entered into record books..... with your name next to them."
No but there are "trophy wives" for sure. Very similar in some respects to the subject at hand.... most are mounted and figuratively hanging on someones wall..... and all legal. But for me..... something very important missing from that...... contract..... many if not most times, literally.
Anyway, I like it better the other way around.... "just a gigolo, and every where I go......"
Just read one of the annual michigan elk hunt threads on another hunting site. Man talk about refreshing. An elk tag in Michigan is also a once in a lifetime event so you think the people in the area the elk live and with knowledge and knowhow would cash in. But no the majority it seems are happy just to be out in the woods observing elk and then helping the fortunate tag holders get on an elk with no fee involved. You read about it every year and its refreshing !
Well here we go. I will probably get crucified but here is my thoughts about this thread, I see the old argument about those hunting with guide services vs the do it yourselfer. the argument about those hunting private property vs public land. I see a ref to listing your name next to the trophy wife list , a slam against listing animals in P&Y, Ironic since P&Y requires a fair chase affidavit. They are at least trying to encourage ethical hunting. Now after all these arguments, and there are many more just not mentioned in this thread, Tradition vs compound, crossbow versus everything, use of trail cams or not, etc etc, it goes on and on. But looking at the current question would you pay money to have someone find and sit on an animal for you to harvest or take money for providing this service I find it falls squarely into the old argument between the haves and have nots, many of these arguments are from people who dont have the money to avail themselves of these services and if they did have the money they would use it. Not all but most would. I have seen it to many times to think otherwise. The sad thing is they try to pass themselves off as the real deal by doing it their way, and some folks buy into it. Here is how I see it, when I hunt I obviously obey all regs from the state or province I hunt. I follow the rules of fair chase as defined by the P&Y (my choice) but the real decision comes from my heart I will only attempt to take this animals life if it will absolutely thrill me I do not care how big or small it is or if it will make the book, but if it does make book I will list it. It has to thrill me. I have no problem with people killing an animal for meat or population control, it just does not thrill me so I am happy others enjoy doing that. And that brings me to the point I am trying to make, Why should anybody here be concerned about how much money somebody else has to spend on hunting its just none of your concern. If somebody uses a guide service with a half dozen guides working for the client, that is his prerogative as long as he is not doing any thing illegal. If it does not meet your ethical standard that is OK it meets his. If you think there is a real problem work to change the regs, I guess I am a little cranky,
I do not believe I would pay for or accept pay for something like this, but you never really know what you will do until you are in that position. I used a guide for a Moose hunt here in Colorado not that I could not do it on my own but because my wife wanted me to after learning how long I had been applying for a tag. Also because I was worried about getting the meat out before it spoiled if I was back up some valley several miles when I shot one. The hunt was fantastic and the guides made it even more enjoyable, partially as I knew them for many years prior to booking.
Once the animal is located there is still some hunting to do to get it killed especially when hunting with bow. Where does this crap end. If this is bad, then it’s also bad to read an article about how great Arizona is for elk and then hunt there. It’s bad to look in record book and hunt where you see alot of recent entries also. What is the difference if the information is free or you pay for it?
Back to the deviated topic. Its all about the machismo bragging rights and how they vary relative to the individuals pursuit of said game. DIY slingshot kill trumps guided rifle kill sort of thing.
DIY vs guided vs Tending an animal.... some people are confusing tending w/ guided.
As I stated in my initial post I likely wouldn’t but I’d have to see how much money was offered. Most can be bought for a price, I’m no different.
Good post Ron but to play devils advocate here, you expect a bunch of poor guys to work to change laws against interests with money? Money makes the world go round and I don’t see a bunch of poor guys lobbying for game reg changes.
I find it somewhat ironic that C3 was miffed when a governor's tag rifle hunter sniped a big bull out from under his bowhunter buddy during which time they were employing long-range surveillance with 2-way radios to call out every step the bull took so the bowhunter buddy could approach the giant bull.
I agree smarba. Even more ironic is that the guide service jammed our walkie talkie frequency so we couldn't talk to each other. hahahaha poetic justice I suppose. All that in the video is to show my buddy that I really was telling him the whole time what was going on. He was pissed at me cause he never heard any of it.
The only real difference was that it was shot with a rifle from right in front of us with the help of about 10 glassers that afternoon during the "minions" archery season with his $100K heritage any weapon anywhere any time tag against just the two of us and one bow.
Bottom line is that you will never enjoy any event as someone who has invested more sweat equity and poured himself into the project and relied on relied on his skills to accomplish the given task but that is not the question.
I used to say that I had no desire to hunt African game but am now considering taking my wife on a safari. Most people shape their thoughts based on their resources and other resources. Most people didn’t go to Hollywood as a liberal but over time their lens changed. Many people would change their position on many topics including this one if their lens changed.
Don't get me wrong Pete: I would have been happier if your buddy got the bull versus a paid posse that was camping on him. However, you guys were employing as many tactics as you could to try and get the bull (helper/spotter/radios). So was the guy with the governor's tag. Tough to determine where to draw the line.
