The decline of bowhunting?
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
johnw 14-Jan-18
Charlie Rehor 14-Jan-18
Owl 14-Jan-18
nvgoat 14-Jan-18
Jaquomo 14-Jan-18
JTV 14-Jan-18
Bowboy 14-Jan-18
nvgoat 14-Jan-18
Trial153 14-Jan-18
midwest 14-Jan-18
wyobullshooter 14-Jan-18
drycreek 14-Jan-18
Bowriter 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
Salagi 14-Jan-18
keepemsharp 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
swampokie 14-Jan-18
Glunt@work 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
Bill Obeid 14-Jan-18
Pintail 14-Jan-18
ground hunter 14-Jan-18
Treeline 14-Jan-18
StickFlicker 14-Jan-18
Jaquomo 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
Jaquomo 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
Owl 14-Jan-18
Treeline 14-Jan-18
Bill Obeid 14-Jan-18
Bowriter 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
Bowriter 14-Jan-18
jjs 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
Charlie Rehor 14-Jan-18
Matt 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
RutnStrut 14-Jan-18
JTV 14-Jan-18
PushCoArcher 14-Jan-18
Jaquomo 14-Jan-18
swampokie 14-Jan-18
Jaquomo 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
swampokie 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
JTV 14-Jan-18
Bloodtrail 14-Jan-18
Jaquomo 14-Jan-18
Owl 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
Bowriter 14-Jan-18
ground hunter 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
Bowriter 14-Jan-18
Scoot 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
MambaHNTR 14-Jan-18
Scoot 14-Jan-18
swampokie 14-Jan-18
Jaquomo 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
ground hunter 14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 14-Jan-18
SteveD 14-Jan-18
JTV 14-Jan-18
Bowriter 15-Jan-18
ELKMAN 15-Jan-18
Catscratch 15-Jan-18
lawdy 15-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 15-Jan-18
ELKMAN 15-Jan-18
Bowriter 15-Jan-18
Ermine 15-Jan-18
Ollie 15-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 15-Jan-18
Bowriter 16-Jan-18
Grubby 16-Jan-18
jstephens61 16-Jan-18
ground hunter 16-Jan-18
LBshooter 16-Jan-18
Mad Trapper 16-Jan-18
Vonfoust 16-Jan-18
ELKMAN 16-Jan-18
Irishman 16-Jan-18
Buffalo1 16-Jan-18
ground hunter 16-Jan-18
JTV 16-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 16-Jan-18
Glunt@work 16-Jan-18
swampokie 16-Jan-18
swampokie 16-Jan-18
happygolucky 16-Jan-18
Matte 16-Jan-18
Hh76 16-Jan-18
Glunt@work 16-Jan-18
splitlimb13 16-Jan-18
Bou'bound 16-Jan-18
Bill Obeid 16-Jan-18
jstephens61 16-Jan-18
orionsbrother 16-Jan-18
LBshooter 16-Jan-18
LBshooter 16-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 16-Jan-18
Bou'bound 16-Jan-18
Bill Obeid 16-Jan-18
LBshooter 16-Jan-18
6x6 bull 16-Jan-18
Jaquomo 16-Jan-18
6x6 bull 16-Jan-18
Jaquomo 16-Jan-18
6x6 bull 16-Jan-18
Jaquomo 17-Jan-18
Bowriter 17-Jan-18
Hans 1 17-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 17-Jan-18
Catscratch 17-Jan-18
Lost Arra 17-Jan-18
happygolucky 17-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 17-Jan-18
Bill Obeid 17-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 17-Jan-18
tradmt 17-Jan-18
Salagi 17-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 17-Jan-18
12yards 17-Jan-18
Slippery Paw 17-Jan-18
tradmt 17-Jan-18
Jaquomo 17-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 17-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 17-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 17-Jan-18
Bou'bound 17-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 17-Jan-18
Lost Arra 17-Jan-18
Grubby 17-Jan-18
JL 17-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 17-Jan-18
Catscratch 17-Jan-18
Mrwizard 17-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 17-Jan-18
Bill Obeid 17-Jan-18
Mrwizard 17-Jan-18
wyobullshooter 17-Jan-18
Mrwizard 17-Jan-18
Bill Obeid 17-Jan-18
ground hunter 17-Jan-18
Mrwizard 17-Jan-18
Silverback 17-Jan-18
Mrwizard 17-Jan-18
wyobullshooter 17-Jan-18
Silverback 17-Jan-18
Mrwizard 17-Jan-18
Pigsticker 17-Jan-18
Slippery Paw 17-Jan-18
GF 17-Jan-18
Mrwizard 17-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 17-Jan-18
Glunt@work 17-Jan-18
Mrwizard 17-Jan-18
Whocares 17-Jan-18
Jaquomo 17-Jan-18
Jaquomo 17-Jan-18
happygolucky 18-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 19-Jan-18
ELKMAN 19-Jan-18
lawdy 19-Jan-18
Jaquomo 19-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 19-Jan-18
jjs 19-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 19-Jan-18
trophyhill 19-Jan-18
Jaquomo 19-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 19-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 19-Jan-18
ELKMAN 19-Jan-18
jjs 19-Jan-18
Jaquomo 19-Jan-18
6x6 bull 19-Jan-18
LBshooter 19-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 19-Jan-18
Jaquomo 19-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 19-Jan-18
Jaquomo 19-Jan-18
Catscratch 19-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 19-Jan-18
Jaquomo 19-Jan-18
tradmt 19-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 19-Jan-18
happygolucky 19-Jan-18
Pigsticker 19-Jan-18
lawdy 19-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 31-Jan-18
ground hunter 31-Jan-18
Mad Trapper 31-Jan-18
TrapperKayak 31-Jan-18
lawdy 31-Jan-18
Jaquomo 31-Jan-18
lawdy 02-Feb-18
Tonybear61 03-Feb-18
Single bevel 03-Feb-18
1boonr 03-Feb-18
Jaquomo 03-Feb-18
Missouribreaks 03-Feb-18
Jaquomo 03-Feb-18
Missouribreaks 03-Feb-18
14-Jan-18

Missouribreaks's Link

From: johnw
14-Jan-18
Might be an unpopular opinion, but I think you should not be able to hunt with a cross bow during archery season unless you have some type of handicap or legitimate shoulder/elbow injury that prevents you from drawing enough weight to shoot a compound bow.

14-Jan-18
Here you go again! If you apply for a high demand Western archery tag you’d know this is not the case.

From: Owl
14-Jan-18
Unsurprising - particularly in a state with stand-based whitetail hunting. Doesn't concern me, though. The shifting demographic will only bother me if it curtails product development in the vertical segment of the market. I'm really looking forward to a single digit % held draw weight.

From: nvgoat
14-Jan-18
100% agree. The movement of drawing a bow and then holding the weight at full draw is a completely different game than shooting a pre-cocked weapon off a rest.

From: Jaquomo
14-Jan-18
So what? Show us an example of where seasons have been shortened and tags reduced BECAUSE of crossbows. Some keep saying it "will" happen. Not likely with hunter numbers decreasing while whitetail numbers increase.

Anyone who wants to bowhunt with a "vertical" bow can do it if they want.

I hunted WY last season for a whole month and saw exactly one guy with a crossbow. He was 64 with a severe shoulder injury and was no threat to me or the elk.

From: JTV
14-Jan-18
the damn things should be in gun seasons or for handicapped only ... cant stand 'em, never will... to many Elmer Fudds bee boppin' around the woods with the damn things ...we used to have nice quiet archery only seasons, esp. on state lands, now the gun clownboys have invaded the archery seasons... smh ...

From: Bowboy
14-Jan-18
People tend to take the easy way no matter what sport. Who really cares!

Example: Just like automobiles everybody use to know how to drive a manual, now every uses and automatic. Bottom line it's easier to drive an automatic than a manual.

I live out in WY and hardly ever see anybody using a crossbow even though it's legal. In the East and South I can see where there's more people and it's more prevalent.

IMO It's just the way life goes! If you don't like crossbows that's your opinion and I'm ok with that. I also agree with Charlie and Lou!

From: nvgoat
14-Jan-18
My issue is based mostly on states like Nevada where there is a limited number of archery tags per unit. The inclusion of crossbows will make it easier for people without motivation to become proficient in archery to then draw these tags.

To be honest, I don't really want to see the proof of the negative consequences as at that point it is too late to change back.

From: Trial153
14-Jan-18
Crossbows are the beginning of the end for our Archery seasons.

From: midwest
14-Jan-18

midwest's Link
Apparently, Wyoming is taking a look at the technology...

14-Jan-18
Nick, you beat me to it.

From: drycreek
14-Jan-18
To those that think crossbows breed poor shooting, I once went to a bow only ranch to hunt whitetails near Uvalde, Texas and naturally, some of us wanted to shoot a little before the first afternoon hunt. The guys I saw shoot could never have approached the accuracy of a crossbow, so the "Elmer Fudd" thing is out the window IMO. You find poor shots in every discipline, and just because you don't like them or don't use them, (and I don't), doesn't mean that they are going to "ruin" bowhunting as we know it. I've stated before that when I get too old to reliably kill a deer with my bow, I'll just gun hunt until I can't do that.

And since this is the same old subject just regurgitated, I'll refrain from posting on any "crossbow vs. vertical bows" threads. It has gotten old !

From: Bowriter
14-Jan-18
"Decline??" Yesterday, I received an email from a magazine editor assigning me an article on the decline in both hunting and fishing-statewide and nationwide. In a three year period, hunting and fishing license sales decreased by nearly 160,000 just in TN. When taking into account, all monies outdoor activities generate, just in TN, the figure is $3-million A DAY. That is just in TN and that includes every penny spent on any outdoor nature based, activity. (not ball sports etc.) My assignment was to pinpoint reasons and causes and affects on various aspects. I am glad someone pointed out the damage crossbows are doing. I never thought of that.

In plain words, get a freakin life. We all know it isn't crossbows, it is Trump and Al Gore's global warming. Technology, video games and loss of habitat plus increased costs have not a thing to do with it. Don't blame a decreasing rural society and increased organized sports that go all year. It has nothing to do with it. Don't be laying the blame on Television and its' trophyism at all costs, agenda. It is not their fault fathers and grandfathers can no longer afford to take youngsters hunting or fishing because they can't afford high dollar hunts, $80,000 boats and participation trophies. After all, if a kid wants to go bowhunting, simply buy him a couple grand worth of equipment and send him out the back door to the neighbors woodlot. I'm sure the neighbor won't care. If he does, then, let him hunt the back of the subdivision. And JTV, what I suggest is, just go sit in the corner and suck your thumb with the rest of crybabies. Now...in TN just under 3% of all bowhunters use a crossbow. The problem here is, the other 97% thinking they are superior. Then, there is .74% who shoot traditional and think they are superior to everybody. Then, when you factor in the .09% of the buckskinners using flintlocks in mzl. season, they look down on anyone wearing camo. The Democrats blame the Republicans for the lack of ducks and the farmers blame the seed companies for poor crops and that leads to starving deer and nobody will shoot does because they don't see that on television and trail cam sales went way down because too many hunters were using crossbows and wearing beaver hats. Personally, I think it is all Trump and the Russians plotting to take over all Iowa deer hunting. Just read Jacquomo's post and go watch Escape to the Wild.

14-Jan-18
If or when Montana makes crossbows legal during the archery season I can guarantee you there will be plenty of crossbow hunters from the midwest and Montana apply for the limited draw elk, deer, and antelope tags. Once higher archery success rates are achieved with modern scoped, crossbows, then archery tags will be reduced and quota kills reached faster to end the season. With more people applying for archery tags and higher success rates, as in the Wisconsin report, you will draw less often. I have no issue with it, but strange others deny the obvious.

I might add that modern scoped crossbows would be highly, highly effective at making routine 100 shot kills at all game such as elk, deer and antelope in the more rolling country of central Montana and east. Scoped crossbows will be a game changer whether anyone wants to admit it or not.........

Where crossbows are legal for all hunters, maybe have just one season and use whatever weapon you choose?

From: Salagi
14-Jan-18
Arkansas has included crossbows in the archery season for 30 years now. Still more deer killed with vertical bows than crossbows. I remember when compounds with all their let off was going to ruin bowhunting by making it easier. ;) Do compounds make it easier? Certainly. Do crossbows make it easier yet? Definitely. Do either one bother me? No, they keep people active and hunting.

Normally my bowhunting is done with a recurve simple because I just don't like shooting compounds. However, a couple of days ago my mother stated they needed another deer for the freezer. She wanted a fawn and didn't think Dad could get another, he just turned 91 and his hunting has slowed way down, he will only rifle hunt now. So I borrowed his crossbow and killed one for them last night. Truly hunting? Naw, more of an ambush and "harvest." Did it take care of their needs? I sure hope so. In my not so humble or even valued opinion, it has it's place.

From: keepemsharp
14-Jan-18
The decline in hunting numbers is wholly because of the lack of access to places to hunt. Massive leasing and buying of hunt land is the reason. Pricing most folks out of the game. Imagine a single-parent family trying to acquire the funds to compete. Just look at the threads on Bowsite, ''the place we hunted had 25,000 acres tied up".

14-Jan-18
The decline of total hunters, and the decline of bowhunters (as defined by the P&Y Club), are two totally different scenarios, each with their own set of factors causing the decline. This thread is about the decline of bowhunters.....bowhunters as defined by the Pope and Young club... meaning hunters utilizing hand drawn bows.

From: swampokie
14-Jan-18
I want to see primitive only to hold them damn success rates down. We need to start a petition!!!!!! I think 80% letoff and sights give an unfair advantage that leads to less tags available

From: Glunt@work
14-Jan-18
I worked in the archery industry for a quite awhile. I was discussing this with friend who is still in it and works for a major company at a high level. His feeling is that crossbows may not be bad for hunting but they are changing the archery industry and bow hunting. They are less accessory dependent and one size fits all for the most part. A family only needs multiple crossbows if they are hunting separately. Since dad usually is along when the kids hunt, they can just shoot his. They don't require as many trips to a bow tech at the local shop and the average guy can keep his up and running through Amazon with no special tools or knowledge.

Folks can be very effective with them without Summer 3D shoots, indoor winter leagues or weekly backyard shooting.

14-Jan-18
That is likely true swampokie. Compounds brought a lot of new archery hunters on the scene. The relatively rapid and large influx of compound archery hunters, and resultant harvest success, had to of been at least partly responsible for the limited archery license draw and quota structures set forth in some states. It is important to think beyond whitetail deer, which in many areas are over objective, prolific, and under hunted.

I have no issue with compounds or crossbows, but to deny the obvious impacts are both hilarious and dumbfounding.

From: Bill Obeid
14-Jan-18
If you are an archer...... shooting in the backyard isn’t only a requirement it’s therapy.

If you don’t enjoy summer 3D shoots , winter leagues , and backyard shooting you probably aren’t an archer anyway

From: Pintail
14-Jan-18
Hunter numbers are falling because there are more kids growing up in urban settings then in rural ones. What was once farms are now developments, where there were milk cows now you may find a couple horses or alpacas. Kids find it easier to play a video game then look for someone to take them hunting or fishing. The whole crossbow thing takes me down memory lane. I started bow hunting in 1971, almost everyone was shooting recurves back then. When the subject of those new compound bows came up it was a lot of hollering and fist pounding. The outcome? more deer were taken, a lot more. More hunters? You bet ( remember Bear archery's ad for " Being a two season hunter?) My point is, this is just history repeating itself. Its not the end of the world or the end of the deer heard just another way to fill someone's tag. Recurve, longbow, compound or crossbow its all good.

14-Jan-18
bowriter good points, but you need a paragraph or two, to make it easier to read your posts

From: Treeline
14-Jan-18
There are still some around that feel that compounds ruined archery seasons...

Sure would reduce competition for those hard to draw tags without them!

Pretty amazing how fast someone can pick up a compound and shoot it well out at ranges much greater than someone who has shot a traditional bow all their life.

It certainly does not seem like there has been a decline in bowhunters here in Colorado. If anything, it seems like bowhunter numbers have significantly increased during our "archery seasons".

Heck, not only bowhunters but the number of rifle and muzzle loader hunters seems to have increased during our "archery season" as well.

Would rather let the crossbows in and get rid of all the gun hunters here in Colorado so we could actually have an Archery Season, myself...

From: StickFlicker
14-Jan-18

StickFlicker's embedded Photo
StickFlicker's embedded Photo
I understand that things like this may not have as much affect in the midwest and eastern whitetail states, and many of those states claim their hunter numbers are declining. That isn't the case in the western states, where hunter numbers continue to climb and it becomes more and more difficult to obtain a permit in one's own state. In a recent 10 year period, hunter numbers increased 82% according to a US Dept. of the Interior study conducted in Arizona!

From: Jaquomo
14-Jan-18
I agree with nvgoat and don't want them in western states with limited tags either. But in states overrun with whitetails and hogs basically unlimited tags?

BTW, I'm old enough to remember when many said compounds would be the "beginning of the end of our archery seasons". Has that happened, now nearly 50 years later? LOL!!

14-Jan-18
Again, this thread is about the trending of a national decline in bowhunters, as defined by the P&Y Club, and the rapid and accelerated increase in crossbow hunters. It is not about overall hunter numbers, or what is happening in the west. The change is accelerating as more and more states make scoped crossbows legal for all hunters during archery seasons. Historically, many hunters stayed with compounds simply because they hunted other states where crossbows were not allowed. This barrier is crumbling and accelerating the decline of hand drawn bowhunting.

The P&Y Club currently does not accept crossbow kills. While they watch their audience shrink and eventually entries and revenue decline, how will they stay in business and grow? When the P&Y club finally allows crossbow use and entries, as they eventually did with compounds of various let offs, that will further accelerate the decline of hand drawn bow use.

These are simply the realities of the decline in hand drawn bow use and therefore bowhunting, best the industry and lawmakers adjust to it.

From: Jaquomo
14-Jan-18
Again, so what?

14-Jan-18
I don't know what. I merely and simply posted a news article and made no initial comment. The article was an FYI to build discussion off from, and it worked.

From: Owl
14-Jan-18
No one will regard seriously a debate about the inclusion of crossbows on a website where there are threads defending 88 and 100 yard bow shots. Given the OP, what we are witnessing is modern archery advancements subjugating the vertical platform.

From: Treeline
14-Jan-18
Man, a compound bow is tough enough to pack around and hunt with!

Jeez, how you gonna pack that crossbow contraption around in the hills or on a horse?

From: Bill Obeid
14-Jan-18
As long as there bows to shoot there will be archers to shoot them.

Archers have always been a minority of the hunting population.

Pope and Young will never allow crossbows , simply because it’s not Archery . Their hopes and dreams of growing archery may get dashed but they won’t ........ nor should they .... compromise their beliefs.

There is always going to be archery. It’s not going away. Crossbows May take a chunk of the base that was intended for archery. But , there will always be a portion of the hunting pool that loves the challenge of pulling a string and watching the arrow fly.

It has nothing to do with recruitment , it has nothing to do with club dues or financial success. It has everything to do with what is in the heart of a true archer and what he knows is a noble pursuit.

From: Bowriter
14-Jan-18
"bowriter good points, but you need a paragraph or two, to make it easier to read your posts".,....I counted three paragraphs. I'll start double spacing between each.

Pintail pretty well nailed it. In my research, I believe I had seven separate but yet intertwined causes for the decline in hunters. Loss of habitat access was number one. Moving from a rural society to an sub-urban/urban was number two. Almost all vactors, in one way or another relate to costs. Example-Hunters have to travel more to find land. Travel costs in terms of gas and or lodging etc. On the fishing side, much the same. Seldom see a kid with cane pole sitting on a creek bank. Creeks banks are now on posted land, cost of owning and operating a boat. One huge factor, I had not considered, was the year-round sports programs at school. That occupies a great deal of time, formerly used for outdoor nature activities.

I am at about 1700 wds and not done. Lot of interesting data of which I was not aware. TN sells a tad over 750,000 hunting/fishing licenses each year, A drop of 160,000 sales just between 2005-2008 is significant. I suspect that drop is appreciably larger in states outside the Southeast or ranching/mountain West where kids still grow up hunting.

As a sidebar, trust me, not going to be a lot of hunters packing crossbows around the mountains.

14-Jan-18
I think crossbows are archery, however they are not bows and a part of bow hunting. Hunters who shoot crossbows are not bowhunters.

I am not so sure about the P&Y club never allowing crossbow entries, revenue is king. I remember when they did not allow compounds at all, and then from there they allowed increasing let offs. I really do not care, however the P&Y Club is the last barrier which keeps some bowhunters committed to the hand drawn bow. I bet their board room members are having some interesting discussions. If not, they should be.

From: Bowriter
14-Jan-18
At some point, P&Y will have to create a category for crossbows. They cannot afford to pass up that revenue. As it is with any organization of that size, revenue will reign. As the directors change, so will the parameters.

From: jjs
14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks, the NRA did an end around with the Wi. legislators on the x-bow that WBH was against. The NRA represent the rifle/gun users and they had no business in the bowhunting agenda, there is a x-bow ad that say it is the new rifle for bowhunting and this say it all. The Wi. legislators were to reconsider the x-bow after 2 yrs on the impact in the bow season and this has not been done either which is pass due, the public hunting is changing to a gun hunting mentality and this needs to be moved to the muzzle/gun season. With the new compounds there is no reason for x-bow to be use unless one has a arm loss by amputation or sever limitations. So far Mn. is holding the line by seeing what is happening in Wi., but it is coming with all the snowflakes/boomers coming of age. There are people that never bowhunter until the x-bow came into the season, want to change it got to get political to stop it with facts. Remember when Pat would delete any discussion on the x-bow, I got deleted a bunch and times have change. lol

14-Jan-18
I think so Bowriter. And at the point P&Y crossbow entries are allowed you will see another acceleration in the decline of hand drawn bow use. If I was a crossbow manufacturer, in an attempt to bring about change at the P&Y, I would be throwing money their way at this very moment. Money buys a lot of things these days, The Art of the Deal.

14-Jan-18
Thank you jjs, good post.

14-Jan-18
Crossbow entries are welcome in B&C Club and many other organizations. P&Y Club is doing just fine and supporting many fine Conservation groups with its current membership. Sure it would be nice to be larger and more influential but not by giving up principles. If the Club can not exist with bow hunters it probably should not exist. Very proud of P&Y Club as is!

From: Matt
14-Jan-18
"Crossbows are the beginning of the end for our Archery seasons. "

So allegedly were high let-off compound bows - circa 1993. How many archery seasons have we lost in the past 25 years again?

I'll take that even a step further - I would bet there will be more situations in the future where crossbows save archery seasons than those that are ended by them.

14-Jan-18
I do not believe there is a threat to the seasons. However, if success rates and season recruitment trending is seen as in Wisconsin then there will be less chance of a draw in permit restricted zones. Quota season quotas will be reached quicker.

I think the Wisconsin bear draw is about once in ten years, used to be your bow tag was good for a deer or a bear. Big difference in baiting a bear to 20 yards for a hand drawn bow shot, than to 60 yards for a crossbow or rifle opportunity. The easier bear become to kill, and the more the hunters, the fewer tags will be allotted and drawn. Crossbows are not just about whitetail deer.

From: RutnStrut
14-Jan-18
"Again, so what?"

That's the attitude most have until it's too late.

From: JTV
14-Jan-18
What part of BOWhunting do the crossgun advocates not understand .... to me this is like the illegal's that invade this country... what part of ILLEGAL do the dems not understand...

From: PushCoArcher
14-Jan-18
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

From: Jaquomo
14-Jan-18
RutnStrut-"drainpipe", I'm not in favor of crossbows in archery seasons either.

But I remember all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over compound bows. It was going to be the end of bowhunting, shorter seasons, all that. Yep, that sure did happen, didn't it? You wouldn't happen to shoot a compound, would you?

From: swampokie
14-Jan-18
I really get tired of hearing hunter numbers are down. I guess people that keep harping on this are not hunters or at least hunters of secure private land that is protected from the invasion I see not only out west but every state I hunt. Enuff of that hunting is a dying sport already.

From: Jaquomo
14-Jan-18
Swampokie, the data is hard and very real. State agencies are very concerned. Various organizations track the continuous decline since numbers peaked 1972. USFWS, NSSF, AMO. When the Boomer Bubble drops out they predict a 20-30% decline in 15 years, from today's numbers.

What nobody agrees upon is what can be done about it.

14-Jan-18
Hunting is not a dying sport in itself. Bowhunters are in decline, crossbow hunters are increasing, and overall there are fewer hunting licenses sold in almost every state and nationally. Hunting itself is alive and well (the concept), just fewer people participate and less and less voters approve. The trending is concerning to some.

From: swampokie
14-Jan-18
I’m in a tree right now on public land and I have at least 2 other archers in trees within 200 yds. Lota archers out here. Most are still using vertical bows

14-Jan-18
Good luck tonight Swamp.

From: JTV
14-Jan-18
as they should be using during BOWseason ...

From: Bloodtrail
14-Jan-18
Archery licenses in CT have consistently risen or stayed constant over the last ten years. So there is no shortage of bowhunters using bows or crossbows here. Our gun permits have declined dramatically over the same period and are still falling. It actually stinks having to share the woods with more people, in a time where you used to have the woods all to yourself and never would see another bowhunter.

Walk into any archery shop here and they will tell you that they can't keep crossbows on their shelves. My hope is that this is just a trend and the crossbow users fizzle out once the novelty wears off. And since our deer herd is declining each year, hopefully the lack of animals deters them even more.

From: Jaquomo
14-Jan-18

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Here ya go.

I bowhunt public land for elk in CO and average maybe one or two encounters with other hunters in the woods every season, average close to 30 days in the woods. Last year I hunted public land in WY for a whole month straight and ran into exactly four other guys in the woods. Three in one group that I called in together (which was pretty damn funny because they came in through loose timber, spread about 10 yards apart, squawking on some sort of bird call). And there was also a rifle deer season going on at the same time.

MB, the trend is very disturbing to state managers I've interviewed who are already worrying how to deal with the revenue decline. The future will bring more opportunity for those who continue to hunt, not less, irrespective of weapon choice. You may realize your dream of only one long season with everyone crammed into it. If you live long enough.

From: Owl
14-Jan-18
"Last year I hunted public land in WY for a whole month straight and ran into exactly four other guys in the woods. " - The G bear proliferation could be skewing the Wyo data... : )

14-Jan-18
Lets allow only long bow, or re-curve bows. Ban hunting videos, trail cams, name brand clothing, and high-fives, lets also ban the phrases "I let him walk", "big buck down", "smoked 'em", "we got it done." No one can post pictures of deer on social media. If you live off the government...aka get free medical care and free food, then you cant hunt at all either.

14-Jan-18
I do not worry about one season. Many states and provinces already have this for game such as bears, turkeys, caribou, lion etc, this concept is nothing new. It make no difference to me, I never feel at a disadvantage with my longbow and cedars.

I do agree the future may provide less crowded lands for those who stay with hunting. There is a benefit to fewer hunters on the landscape, negatives in other ways.

From: Bowriter
14-Jan-18
Missouribreaks-There is one fly in the ointment of your hypothesis that there may be more less crowded land. I saw a chart on this just yesterday. As revenues decline to decrease in license sales, monies to manage and make those lands available will decrease. As a result, the chart I saw showed a decrease in land open to public hunting shrinking significantly. However, this was just a chart for one state.

14-Jan-18
Bowriter, you are spot on about the xbow category with Pope and Young,,,,

14-Jan-18
Bowriter, that is why I said "may"...... and there will be negatives. I do think public land availability will shrink for hunters, and especially trappers.

From: Bowriter
14-Jan-18
I think we as hunters, not just bowhunters, are going to have to come to a realization. That being, unless something drastically changes to improve numbers, some of our grandchildren will see a European style of hunting. There is only one thing that can prevent it. That is a significant increase in licenses sold...not just hunting but fishing and trapping. It doesn't matter where that income is derived. It has to start climbing.

We are not going to stop urbanization and shrinking hunter habitat. Therefore, we simply MUST preserve public lands or it will all be leased land and privately owned. In short, European hunting by the rich and landed.

And so, we had better start throwing our arms around each other's shoulders, whether that shoulder holds a rifle, shotgun, mzl., recurve, compound or crossbow. We had better become united, not fractured over something silly.

From: Scoot
14-Jan-18
Miserablebreaks do you ever get sick of beating this drum? Xbows will cause the fall of mankind and likely will be single handedly response for the nuclear holocaust. We've all heard you say it a few hundred times now...

14-Jan-18
There are much larger issues in America as we become more like Europe, which we will.

From: MambaHNTR
14-Jan-18
I certainly dont see a decline in hunter numbers in Indiana. I most defantly do not see exploding Whitetail numbers more like a lot fewer deer now!

From: Scoot
14-Jan-18
I agree Miiserable but that has little to do with this thread.

From: swampokie
14-Jan-18
Thanks Missouri! Stuck one at 5 ! Meat doe

From: Jaquomo
14-Jan-18
Mamba, you're correct about Indiana's deer population. The DNR has been deliberately reducing the deer herd due to pressure from insurance companies, the IDOT, and farmers. It's not the only state doing this either. CO has been reducing the elk herd over the past 10 years too.

14-Jan-18
Congratulations swampokie.

14-Jan-18
Scoot, that was funny,,,,,

14-Jan-18
Bowriter stated that hunting will become European style, I agree with him.

From: SteveD
14-Jan-18
Europeon style hunting is here and unfortunately gaining. Mention public land and increasing it for hunting and your labeled a socialist by some .Glad I'm on the last quarter tank of life. Your financial privilege or blessings will dictate whether you will hunt or not in the near future for many, sad to see it coming .

From: JTV
14-Jan-18
Indiana had its worst season in about 14 years .....

From: Bowriter
15-Jan-18
JTV To what do you attribute that? There is a push by insurance companies to reduce animal populations. It is string push, here in TN and it is done quietly. However, our total kill numbers are also declining despite a 3-doe per day limit in many counties. Some of that is due to changing bag limits and eliminating some categories. Some is due to a decrease in hunter numbers. Some is due to terrible hunting weather. Combine,,they all equal a decrease in numbers.

From: ELKMAN
15-Jan-18
If your concerned about the "decline" of bow hunting/loss of season. I would be far more worried about the anitis and the game and fish getting wind of the current trend of 80-90-100 yard plus shooting/wounding that's going on with these so supposed primitive weapons (compound bows). And with seemingly little resistance, or even support from so called "bow hunters". The cross gun thing is just a straight up money grab, and the joke that has become the "archery" industry should be ashamed. Not to mention the game and fish departments that get sucked down this rabbit hole by lobbyist and the almighty dollar.

From: Catscratch
15-Jan-18
Lol, wow! Bowsite needs to change it's name to "Archerysite" and then have two main forums for the vertical and horizontal bow groups. Oh wait, there are already two divisions in the vertical group that can't get along; stick shooters and compounders. Maybe three divisions to not get along is a better idea. We are certainly a group divided.

From: lawdy
15-Jan-18
Huge difference between public land in the West and Midwest. Up here in Northern NH, public land means heavy regulations. No blinds or tree stands overnight, no turkey hunting, bear baiting, trapping, bobcat hunting, bear hounds, two articles of orange for even bowhunting, no lead shot, no bicycles, no berry picking, no cutting of any branches or brush to make a blind or tree stand, and now, areas are being posted as no trespassing. You cannot stop along the highway anymore to put in a canoe or kayak if it borders the feds land. I have fought this for years and I can tell you that all of us need to enjoy what we have because, at a conference some of us witnessed in 1992 in Rio, hunting and rural life will not exist for our progeny in the years to come. We did it to ourselves with our votes and letting government take over our lives. I testified to our state senate and had a gentleman approach me afterwards in the hall and berate me over my testimony. He referred to me as an "alarmist." He and some very wealthy buddies own a huge chunk of land along the Connecticutt River within the 7.2 million area slated for fed takeover. He got hold of me a month ago because they got a notice that the feds want their land which is a private hunting club. The town it is in is slated to be over 50% federalized with all houses gone within 15 years. Not much I could say except I told you so. Even though they have taken over one third of my town we still have a lot of private open timberlands so at my age I can hunt in peace. Crossbows are the least of our worries when it comes to hunting.

15-Jan-18
I agree with Lawdy.

Central and northern Montana are in the infancy of this same objective. Unfortunately, many resident hunters do not understand how it progresses.

From: ELKMAN
15-Jan-18

ELKMAN's Link
Stuff like this...

From: Bowriter
15-Jan-18
Lawdy has a very valid point. That is one of the concerns covered under "State Regulations", in my list of concerns. I identified seven major areas. It may surprise some, but anti-hunters was not one of them. Here are those seven and in no particular order. The numbers are just to keep them separate. #1-Access. #2-Cost, #3-Technology, as in video games and I-pads etc. #4 Increase in urbanization-fewer kids growing up in the country, even just playing outside. 5- Television outdoor programming. 6- State regulations. 7- Organized school and other sports programs now running all year.

From: Ermine
15-Jan-18
I don’t buy the hunter numbers are down. Personally I have been seeeing more and more hunters in Colorado lately. People everywhere

From: Ollie
15-Jan-18
This is exactly what those of us who fought crossbows said would happen. You get the gun hunters who currently don't bowhunt going out and getting crossbows. You get the fair-weather "bowhunters" who are not dedicated to bowhunting dropping their compounds for a weapon that is superior in most respects. You get massive amounts of lobbying money coming from those who stand to profit from crossbows being legal in archery-only hunting seasons. You buy off well-known hunting celebrities to endorse your product. Bowhunters become a minority in their own season. A real shame but predictable.

15-Jan-18
Correct Ollie, that is exactly what was projected...... and exactly what did happen.

Seems to be a lot of pro-crossbow hunters, and crossbow users, right here on this bowhunting forum. An evolution of sorts.

From: Bowriter
16-Jan-18
I'm sure you are right.

In six or eight months, there will be no vertical bowkillers left. If I had a recurve or outdated relic of a longbow, I'd sell it while I could still get more for it than a pisselem limb will bring as firewood. I did hear they were considering changing the name of P and Y to W and L cause so many traditional shooters were wounding and losing. SCI is being called BIAA-Buy it at Auction.

Save your confederate points boys, the mouths will rise again. But Missour breaks-just which is it? Here is a direct quote from you. "Bowriter I will say it one more time so you understand. Nobody stated the overall decline of hunting was due to crossbows, in fact that is NOT the case."

From: Grubby
16-Jan-18
What I have seen In Wisconsin is unbelievable. Crossbow guys are everywhere. We lost a few great properties because shirt tail relatives wanted to hunt it with crossbows, all of these gun hunters are now crossbow guys. That’s great if you just want to up numbers and revenue. Here’s the problem that I have seen- most of these guys were never Bowhunters, and in my opinion most never will be. They don’t understand how arrows kill. They don’t know how slow there weapon is compared to the rifle they hunted with last year. They haven’t spent countless hours at the range honing there skills. Sure, there are guys in the woods with vertical bows the same way but it’s nothing compared to the crossbow army.

From: jstephens61
16-Jan-18
Promised myself that I wouldn’t get caught up in threads like this, so I made it 15 days. Would someone please define “archery “ hunting for me. I always felt it was hunting with a bow of any type that I had to draw and hold with my hands and arms. Nothing to assist in drawing or holding. I don’t own a crossbow and have no plans to ever hunt with one. Might end up buying one to play with in the yard. I’ve never seen anyone hunt with one, but talking with guys, I’ve heard a lot of them say they went with one this year. I don’t know if it’s a cool new trend in Illinois or if it’ll be a permanent thing. Time will tell. I believe crossbows have a place in hunting, I’m just not sure it’s in archery season.

16-Jan-18
Well I shoot a recurve,,,,, cross bows do not bother me in the least,,,,, I will take issue with bowriter, painting with a broad brush on traditional shooters wounding too many animals, "please tell me how you know this" seems to be a little self righteous.......

there have been sights and releases etc developed for the recurves 50 years ago, just never caught on.......

Old archery catalogs I have from 50 years ago, have cross bows in them, they just never caught on back than.............................

the weapon does not define the hunter, its his actions and behavior that defines the hunter.....................

most of you guys should get over your selves,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

From: LBshooter
16-Jan-18
Lol why are so many threatened by crossbows? Does it prevent you from killing a deer? It's funny how the high tech junkies are the ones who bitch about crossbows.

From: Mad Trapper
16-Jan-18
Here in Pennsylvania, we cannot hunt deer on Sundays. Although there have been several attempts at changing that, it has been prevented by the PA Farm Bureau. The same people who frequently complain about crop damage. While Sunday hunting will not solve the recruitment issues, it will help. But the farmers don't care and neither do our legislators who have prevented our game commission from getting a license increase for several years. A case of beer or a carton of cigarettes costs more than a resident hunting license. We get what we deserve.

From: Vonfoust
16-Jan-18
Something that I caught as reading through this. An increase in 20,000 hunters in a western state is noticeable to a guy that lives and hunts in CO. Most of those are not new hunters, but people with more expendable income these days along with the internet to provide the 'how'. That doesn't provide more hunters. The eastern/midwestern states are seeing declines in the neighborhoods of hundreds of thousands. As Jaquomo stated, there is a major decline coming with the 'retirement' of the Boomers. When this happens, prepare for state game agency's to look for alternative sources of revenue. That means sharing more land with non and anti hunters. Which also means non and anti hunters having more of a say in how the lands are used.

From: ELKMAN
16-Jan-18
The day you can no longer draw a legal bow back is the day "archery" hunting ends for you. I have no issue with crossguns. So long as their kept in "gun" season...

From: Irishman
16-Jan-18
The biggest threat to bow-hunting is lack of access to land to hunt on. Here in Montana, I'm not worried about regulations on the public land, I don't see that as issue. Extremely wealthy people are buying up smaller ranches (that used to allow hunting) and creating mega ranches that won't allow hunting. What is even worse is that in some cases these private landowners are denying access to public land, in some cases huge chunks of public land that have lots of wildlife on them. The public needs to be allowed access to all public land.

From: Buffalo1
16-Jan-18
I have been following this thread with interest. It has spawned me to do some research on bow and arrows. I will share with you some of my findings for the record:

1. The bow and arrow was invented in Africa approx. 64,000 years ago. The concept eventually spread to Asia and Europe.

2. The longbow was developed by the Celts (Central Europe) in approx. 1180 BC.

3. The recurve bow was developed in Central Asia around 1000 BC.

4. The crossbow was developed by the Chinese around 600-500 BC.

5. The compound bow was patented in the mid 1960's AD. and gained popularity in the mind 1970's AD.

Any longterm Baby Boomer Bowhunter/Archer on this site shot a longbow or recurve bow before he/she ever shot a compound.

Bows and arrows were in existence and defined long before the P&Y Club was founded in 1961.

The only losses or extinctions in North America are Indians and buffaloes. They were reduced in size and/are almost rendered almost extinct through the use of repeater pistols and rifles.

I do not wish to get involved in any arguments concerning compound vs crossbow or longbow/recurve vs compound. -I only wish to bring an awareness of how long archery equipment has been around. Putting this all in perspective, a compound bow has only been around about 50 yrs. Longbows, recurves and crossbows have been around thousands of years. Organizations have a right to make their own definitions on equipments and organization membership is voluntary, not mandatory.

Every person has the right to chose their hunting tool of choice for whatever reason he/she may so choose.

Carry on-

16-Jan-18
Buffalo 1 +1,,, good post,,,,,, Carry on

From: JTV
16-Jan-18

JTV's embedded Photo
JTV's embedded Photo
While that may be true.. dont use one of these things and call yourself a BOWhunter..

16-Jan-18
Developed by the Chinese around 500-600 BC., LOL

From: Glunt@work
16-Jan-18
They also invented the fire lance in the 10th century which was a predecessor to firearms, but it wasnt a bow either :^)

From: swampokie
16-Jan-18
Lb shooter summed it up in that amazing post. Wow spot on

From: swampokie
16-Jan-18
I love how The 2000$ Mathews pse and Hoyt hi tech shooters are worried about a x bow. You are really the face of purity in the sport! Gripe on!

From: happygolucky
16-Jan-18
Another doom and gloom thread. Shocking. Perhaps a 3rd or 4th should be added. Sell off your land and gear. Bowhunting is dead.

From: Matte
16-Jan-18
All forms of land based entertainment have been in steep decline. From golf to hunting people are just not getting out and entertaining and socializing in the same way as we have in the past. It is that simple and there is no foreseeable fix anytime soon.

From: Hh76
16-Jan-18
Am I to understand that the world is changing, and the hobbies of us old people are not the same as these darn kids today?

From: Glunt@work
16-Jan-18
Since everyone is split on what bowhunting is, it's gonna be hard to agree on whether it's declining and where it's headed. Probably better to just go hunting.

From: splitlimb13
16-Jan-18
Here in N.M. crossbows are illegal to use on archery hunts unless the hunter is mobility impared.

From: Bou'bound
16-Jan-18
i have no issues with the crossbow.

Have never shot one

Have never picked one up

Have looked at a couple

I would say though that anyone using one is mobility impaired. how can one possibly be mobil with one of those things being lugged around. that would impair the mobility of a middle linebacker.

From: Bill Obeid
16-Jan-18
“Lol why are so many threatened by crossbows? Does it prevent you from killing a deer? It's funny how the high tech junkies are the ones who bitch about crossbows.“

What’s the title on this thread ?

THE DECLINE OF BOWHUNTING....... and then the OP supplies us with another one of his crossbows vs. bows saga . AND He is posting it on Bowsite! A site, until recently , was made up of archers and bow hunters.

“ Does it prevent you from killing a deer?”

Of course it doesn’t.

“ Funny how the high tech junkies are the ones to bitch about crossbows”

Usually name calling is a threatening gesture. Are you referring to bow hunters that use compound bows. ?

AND ...... that infers that compound bows and crossbows are equal. I’m so tired of that argument . It’s so weak . Like a bow mounted on a gun stock can still remain a bow? What a stretch!

Will bows meet their demise to crossbows? I have no idea..... but in the meantime , can you staunch crossbow users start your own “Crossbowsite”?

If you are a hunter and you use a crossbow you are still my brother. I don’t care if you hunt in the archery season and I certainly don’t care if you are all 100% successful in “deer “ season . But, just because a crossbow is a superior weapon as compared to a bow it doesn’t mean crossbows users should act superior and acuse compound bow users of being jealous of the deer crossbow users kill. Or, to call crossbow users high tech junkies.

I’m not feeling very threatened , but there might be some archers here on Bowsite feeling belittled by those comments.

From: jstephens61
16-Jan-18
The one thing that Will bring the downfall of bow hunting is US fighting amongst ourselves.

16-Jan-18
Meh. If it isn't raining too badly this Sunday, I'll be shooting my bow with my kids who'll be shooting their bows. As long as they keep enjoying themselves, we'll have a few more bowhunters.

Really worried about the future of bowhunting? Chase the wife around the house and make another future bowhunter. I think some of you could use some endorphins.

From: LBshooter
16-Jan-18
Bill Obeid, Have already answered your question I believe, go look at the post, changing face of bowhunting and read it there.

From: LBshooter
16-Jan-18
Bill Obeid, Have already answered your question I believe, go look at the post, changing face of bowhunting and read it there.

16-Jan-18
As stated above, land to hunt is the problem we face. Not the crossbow.

From: Bou'bound
16-Jan-18
people need to relax and keep things in perspective.

From: Bill Obeid
16-Jan-18
LB,

Take away the use of a release on a compound bow. And you are shooting a bow that is rather hard to master.

When crossbows can be pulled with your muscles , held and released with your fingers......... it’ll be a lot closer to a bow in my opinion. Good huntin guys...... does no good to over argue.

From: LBshooter
16-Jan-18
Agreed Bill, but very few do. I was comparing high tech set ups vs a crossbow. To hear some compound shooters freak out about crossbow shooters is a little ridiculous, hypocritical. In today's world of compounds, there are very few if any that can be shot with fingers due to the short lengths.

From: 6x6 bull
16-Jan-18
Jaquomo you asked if any state has lost opportunity because of letting the crossbow in the archery season and the answer is Missouri. We have gone from killing three bucks, two with a bow and one with a firearm, to two combined. 38% of all deer killed in archery season were killed with the crossbow this year and with an increase of 5000 more deer killed. This is only the second year that they are legal for everyone and not just the youth and handicapped. What I have noticed on the public land that I hunt is that a much greater percentage of the hunters are now using them because they don't have to bother with setting up a treestand. They just bring a stool and tuck themselves into a cedar tree and say they can cover a hundred yard area of a food plot.

From: Jaquomo
16-Jan-18
Interesting. The Missouri DNR said they cut back the buck limit because the herd is in decline. Reasons they list are overharvest of does, habitat loss (CRP), with the worst being outbreaks of EHD.

They don't mention crossbow harvest anywhere in the report. Strange..

From: 6x6 bull
16-Jan-18
That's amazing that we have had increased harvest the last two years with all of those problems and they still offer two additional Doe tags in alot of the counties.

From: Jaquomo
16-Jan-18
No question crossbow hunters are killing animals. So are gun hunters and compound bow hunters with the latest, greatest technology, angle-compensating sights, remote cell cams, food plots, etc.. Herds are down in some areas, up in some others. They admit they had too many doe tags in some units for too many years, which hammered the population. Likely political pressure in those areas.

The question is, how many of those crossbow hunters would have killed deer with other methods if crossbows weren't allowed? Seems like crossbows are getting the blame for increased overall take, even though buck tags were reduced. Crossbow guys must be some bad-ass hunters!

From: 6x6 bull
16-Jan-18
In sure that the crossbow hunters are no better or worse hunters than any other form of weapon hunter but nobody can convince me that crossbows aren't changing the face of archery! Just like animals people take the easiest path. People used to practice to become more proficient with their bow. Children that were started using a bow at an early age like myself found a lifelong passion! I have been shooting a bow for 55 years now and I don't think in that time there hasn't been a day where I didn't shoot my bow or read an article about bowhunting or thought about shooting a bow. I hope the kids starting out with the crossbow find the same lifelong obsession as I have found!!

From: Jaquomo
17-Jan-18
Compound bows changed the face of "archery". I've been shooting a bow for 55 years also. What I see now is compound guys going after crossbows the same way trad guys resisted compounds. They are using the exact same arguments, taken from the same playbook.

So where are we now after this 50 year compound journey? With a few exceptions we have stronger lobbies, more generous seasons, more bowhunting opportunity.

From: Bowriter
17-Jan-18
From Matte: "All forms of land based entertainment have been in steep decline. From golf to hunting people are just not getting out and entertaining and socializing in the same way as we have in the past. It is that simple and there is no foreseeable fix anytime soon."

That is it in a nutshell. I just got the kill figures for TN for 2017-18. Lowest in 10-years. However, poaching is up. Poaching, in this case, is considered any illegal killing of a deer. Due to a change in regulations, it appears, many deer are being killed and just not reported. Some are just being left in the woods.

But Matte has nailed the major cause of decline. As to just what is creating this cause, that is still in question.

From: Hans 1
17-Jan-18
The culture of hunting is changing also. Just take the evolution taken place in the hunting shows shot today, much more emphasis is placed on land and deer management than in woodsmanship skills. I would welcome the inclusion of crossbows into our current Archery season In Iowa that is I have always strived to use the best most Efficient tool for any task I have. If crossbows are brought in front of our legislators they will be accepted.Last year they voted unanimously to allow certain rifle cartridges during our gun seasons our deer herd is growing so it is hard to rationalize against there use.

17-Jan-18
Remember, this thread was not at all started to complain about crossbows increasing the overall harvest, that remains to be seen and likely will be different for various animal species. Compared to prior trending, it is clear from the article the "archery season" harvest of whitetail deer logically will increase in these two states.

This thread began with posting an article showing how fast Michigan and Wisconsin hunters are dropping vertical hand drawn bows for the easier to shoot and more efficient scoped crossbow. Many stated this would never happen, well it did, and that is what the article portrays. The article also shows in these two states crossbows are not a successful recruiting tool for over all hunter numbers. Crossbow inclusion did however move(recruit) more rifle hunters into the archery seasons.... which logically will mean that more of the annual game harvest will occur during the archery season than would have happened without crossbow inclusion. Any potential implications here for bowhunters, especially in limited draw areas?

I used the P&Y definition of bowhunting, which is hunting with a vertical, hand drawn bow. The numbers of hunters utilizing vertical, hand drawn bows is in decline, and this will continue. Hence the thread title, "Bowhunting is in Decline", which is very true when one uses the P&Y definition! Crossbow hunting is on the increase, overall National hunter numbers are continuing to trend downward.

From here you guys morphed all over the place and created discussions which are excellent and means the thread was successful.

Right now we are in the transition phase. Many hunters own a modern compound (and still use it), while they are also learning the superiority of the family or friend owned scoped crossbow. They may even own a modern scoped crossbow and a modern compound.... and kill animals with both. With time, both of their weapons will require updating which will be quite expensive. The dollars will generally go to the more efficient crossbow. Aches and pains are a fact of life, but will further provide an excuse for the need of a crossbow for hunters of all ages. During hunting season the now outdated compound will hang on a nail in the garage with the recurve. This is reality guys, simple logic. I am sure many of you will agree from your own past and personal experiences with recurves, compounds and inlines that this trend is highly likely.

Now the question "so what". The OP posted the article merely to show the trends to provide news to those who deny crossbows are becoming the majority approved weapon for the archery season hunters. At the same time, vertical hand drawn bow use is declining and therefore bowhunting as defined by the Pope & Young Club is in decline.

I made no reference as to whether this is good, bad, or indifferent. In Wisconsin and Michigan there is now an influx of gun hunters into the archery seasons, and archery hunters are now mostly using high powered scoped crossbows to do the killing. In other words, the archery season is gaining more archery hunters and with more efficient scoped weapons. I will leave this for discussion on how that one fact MAY impact the archery season experience, harvest, and archery opportunity( draw, quota, season length). Please think about all animals such as limited draw open country elk, mule deer, antelope etc.

From: Catscratch
17-Jan-18
Until I switch solely to stickbows I figure I've got zero right to criticize anyone who uses a different form of technology . As a compounder I have no leverage or moral highground to stand on compared to a crossbower. We are all using cheats and to say otherwise is pretty hypocritical by my moral code.

Everyone is different though and moral codes are learned and taught by upbringing. Today's youth are bring brought up with crossbows in archery season much like I was with compounds in archery season. It's understandable how some people see no distinction.

From: Lost Arra
17-Jan-18
As Bou'bound mentioned, I just don't understand how the disabled, the elderly (whatever that is), the youth or those who are in some way physically challenged can carry a heavy cumbersome crossbow through the woods.

From: happygolucky
17-Jan-18
Jaquomo, your open minded reasoning does not fit in well with the agenda of the OP in that bowhunting is dying or is already dead. The sky is falling. There is compound shooter or xbow shooter in every tree and people just can't enjoy their time in the woods anymore. Even the trad guys.

The OP incessantly goes from board to board posting his doom and gloom expecting others to wallow in his misery. If you opine differently or state that you are happy still bowhunting, you get accused of being a crossbow advocate. Take at look at this same thread in the MI board. He has it in the WI board too. Every thread he touches turns into an anti-compound and anti-xbow thread.

Everyone needs to sell their gear and land and take up another hobby. Bowhunting is dead.

17-Jan-18
Please remain calm Happy, I logically posted on two states referenced in the article where I also hunt . Care to comment on my last post, four up from this one? Read carefully please.

From: Bill Obeid
17-Jan-18
Roll Call..... What states do not allow crossbows in the archery season ?

17-Jan-18
Montana is one, not certain about others.

From: tradmt
17-Jan-18
Loss of hunting ground is a biggie. Which has a direct relationship with advancing technology in what was supposed to be a primitive weapon season. That's the program I have been watching for thirty years in Montana and crossbows would most certainly add to that decline of huntable land if allowed in the bow season.

As long as 'bowhunting ' is made easy enough for the masses to be bowhunters we will continue to lose opportunity for most.

From: Salagi
17-Jan-18
"Jaquomo you asked if any state has lost opportunity because of letting the crossbow in the archery season and the answer is Missouri. We have gone from killing three bucks, two with a bow and one with a firearm, to two combined."

I was bred, born and raised in Missouri, moved across the state line when I was almost 30. During that time, (1960's -1990), crossbows were not legal. The limit was one buck with a bow for most of those years, and best I remember, one with a rifle for all those years. Does varied, (always at least one legal with a bow), but many of those early years does were not legal with a rifle. Later they were legal on either opening or closing weekend (what ever the dept of conservation decided) but if you killed a doe, you were done hunting, no buck allowed. By the time I left, they were a little better at giving out landowner tags for rifle season if you owned enough acreage but those were limited to does. And there were more deer around.

To blame the demise on crossbows in MO would seem to stretch the point to me. I would be willing to go out on a limb and say there are other factors much more important. As I mentioned in an earlier post, crossbows have been legal in Arkansas since the 80's and our deer numbers are still rising. I see (and hunt) deer were I saw none 20 years ago.

From: BIG BEAR
17-Jan-18
You continually refer to the crossbow as a more efficient scoped weapon than a vertical bow........

While there are threads here that prove that many many compound bow hunters are extremely effective at 80 yards.... and in a matter of years I'd bet the farm that most compound shooters will be shooting that distance.... and some will be routinely shooting out past 100 yards.........

Heck,,, I'll bet guys will be putting scopes on their compound bows soon.....

From: 12yards
17-Jan-18
Does anyone know what current compound bow sales look like? Are manufacturers selling fewer compounds every year?

From: Slippery Paw
17-Jan-18
Bowhunting is supposed to be about the challenge. If there are more crossbow hunters drawing more tags, shooting more deer and walking around the woods more what's the problem? This will make your hunt more challenging. You should be happy.

From: tradmt
17-Jan-18
Lol, the 'challenge' becomes drawing the tag or permit.

From: Jaquomo
17-Jan-18
According to a report by Technavio, 62% shoot compounds, 22% with crossbows, 21% with recurves, and 19% longbows. Of course, there are crossovers (like me, with longbows, recurves and compounds). Back in 2011 the percentage of compounders was 65%.

I know this may come as a shock to some, but back in the '70s the ratio of compound bows sold vs. stickbows rose pretty quickly. Lots of gun hunters bought compounds to take advantage of longer seasons. Some states, like CO, moved to an either-or model for each species, thanks to lobbying by bowhunters - if you bowhunt you can't rifle hunt (except for extra cow elk tags). In most other states there is an archery season and a gun season, and hunters can hunt both.

Just like in the '70s, in those states many are buying a crossbow to take advantage of that extra hunting time. Crossbows aren't going away. No game department will do anything that might affect hunter recruitment or retention or revenue. Older hunters, especially, move to crossbows after they can no longer draw vertical bows. They are looking for more revenue sources as overall hunter numbers continue to decline.

You guys who are all freaked out about crossbows should lobby your states to make it either-or. But of course states aren't going to do that because they can sell archery tags on top of the regular hunting license, and get more revenue.

The people who seem concerned about crossbows are vertical-only bowhunters who see crossbow competition as crowding "their" hunting (valid in some places), people paranoid about what "MIGHT" happen - and who likely worry about other things in life, or people in western states who don't want more competition for limited draw tags. In Colorado, that is every tag except OTC elk and pronghorn. So far we've ben successful in keeping them out of archery seasons, but that could easily change with a new Wildlife Commission.

So yes, bowhunting is changing. It changed in the '70s and '80s to, and many perceived that as the beginning of the "decline of bowhunting" some still do. People make choices. Since the beginning of time hunters have searched for new and more technologically advanced methods. See: Bows vs. Atl-Atl's, laminated recurves, Fast Flite strings, aluminum arrows.. Successful bowhunters adapt to change. To the OP's concern about whether this will affect "archery season experience, harvest, and archery opportunity (draw, quota, season length)", we heard the same thing in the '70s and 80's. With very few exceptions, the only things affected are archery season length (longer and more liberal almost everywhere) and draw odds - definitely impacted limited tag availability and produced point creep. But with that increase in numbers comes stronger lobbying power by organizations for the longer and more liberal seasons. So there are tradeoffs. Crossbows aren't leaving. Best to figure out how to use crossbow hunters to our advantage.

Bowhunting isn't declining for me, even when I hunt in states where crossbows are legal. I hunt more and longer now, see very little competition in the woods, enjoy it more than I ever did. I don't care if some guy over the hill is hunting with a crossbow because chances are he'd be hunting with a compound if crossbows weren't legal.

17-Jan-18
Good post Jaquomo. Please remember, the original article, and I, never stated the bowhunting experience is declining. It is not, I still use a longbow and enjoy it immensely. The article mentioned other ramifications..... such as the decline of vertical, hand drawn bow use in two states, which is a decline in bowhunter numbers when using the P&Y Club definition of a bow. It also mentioned more hunters during the archery seasons. No mention was made of the individual bowhunting experience.

17-Jan-18
"Crossbows aren't leaving. Best to figure out how to use crossbow hunters to our advantage."

Exactly. Shorter/less rifle seasons, a longer Muzzleloader/crossbow/compound season, and then a split archery season with first 1/2 being traditional equipment and 1/2 any vertical bow. In my perfect world, that's how it'd work. And it'd make everyone happy except the gun guys, but most of them only hunt 1-3 days a year anyways, so...

The ML season is sort of a joke anyways. All the guys I've talked to that use one, use scoped inlines with long ranges and only use them because they like the smaller crowds - as in, they'd use a rifle if they could. The purist guy who likes to shoot a flintlock musket style gun with no sights seems to be a minority. In fact, I'd be ok with allowing MLs in archery season so long as they were the old school style flint lock with a musket ball and just absorb their season and tags into the archery season and let the guys that want to shoot the 400 yard MLs hunt during gun season where they belong.

From: BIG BEAR
17-Jan-18
I guess I don't understand your point in the post... and posting it on the State threads....

You are stating the obvious.... Some guys are putting down their compound bows in favor of crossbows....

The battle to keep crossbows out of bow seasons has been lost... maybe not in all states,,, But enough of them.....

So what ?? There are less bowhunters. So what ??

You will never get all traditional archers to lay down their longbows and recurves for crossbows.... And you will never get all of the compound bow shooters to pick up a crossbow......

Hunt with what you want to hunt with..... This thread is pointless.....

From: Bou'bound
17-Jan-18
"According to a report by Technavio, 62% shoot compounds, 22% with crossbows, 21% with recurves, and 19% longbows"

Technavio needs to learn statistics need to add up to 100%

17-Jan-18
The article was first posted on the Wisconsin forum by another poster on January 14th, shared by me in Michigan and on the General forum.

The information may not be important to many such as Big Bear, however it shows trending which may be of interest to those readers on here who are in archery retail, manufacturing, outfitting, game management, or who are part of organizations such as the WBH and P&Y Club who currently do not recognize crossbows as bowhunting for their members, and entries in the case of P&Y. The article may also be of interest to all the naysayers who stated on this very forum that crossbows were too cumbersome and would never appeal to the masses. And, there are the posters who always write " show me some statistics",..... well here are some. The article is one of the first I have seen which has real statistics so thought I would share what another OP so kindly provided.

From: Lost Arra
17-Jan-18
Bou: ""According to a report by Technavio, 62% shoot compounds, 22% with crossbows, 21% with recurves, and 19% longbows" Technavio needs to learn statistics need to add up to 100%"

I bet the survey said "check all that apply". Some hunters, myself included, will hunt with a compound or a longbow or a recurve all within one season.

From: Grubby
17-Jan-18
I don't care if some guy over the hill is hunting with a crossbow because chances are he'd be hunting with a compound if crossbows weren't legal.

I totally disagree with this statement, I think it’s pretty rare actually.

From: JL
17-Jan-18

JL's Link
Something I think is hurting not just bowhunting but hunting in general is the rising costs just to play the game. IMO the attached vid is a prime example. $35 for just two broadheads???? Granted no one has to buy this expensive stuff but at some point there will be a stop-point that drives folks away. The thinking (already) is there are more important things to spend my money on than hunting. It's not just one or two items but everything involved just to be able to hunt....equipment, travel, tags/licenses, time, etc.

17-Jan-18
I know several families who share their scoped crossbow amongst members and friends. That keeps costs down, and means not everyone has to own a compound bow specifically set up for them. Another poster mentioned this on this forum a few days ago.

From: Catscratch
17-Jan-18
From reading the responses it looks like there is some confusion over who creates the legal definition of a "bow". It seems that many respondents "think" it's P&Y, but in reality it is the State that actually creates the definitions that we are held accountable to. It also seems many do not trust their state to manage game and the laws governing hunting effectively, or in a manor that represents their personal interests. I'm one of the people who think my state has made changes for the worst in recent yrs. I'm also one who thinks you should adhere to your own moral code/rules for your lifestyle... just don't break the laws while doing it. ie - if a crossbow isn't a bow by your standards, then don't use one.

From: Mrwizard
17-Jan-18
In Wa state you can hunt with a crossbow during rifle season only! Unless you are disabled then you can hunt during archery season! I myself was a professional shooter fpr Martin Archery for 25 yrs and for Bowtech for 2yrs hunted all my life with a bow and was recently diagnosed with Lou Gherigs disease at 46 and now can't pull my bow back I have 6 kids we all bow hunt and the only way I can go and share the experience with my kids is with a crossbow so for you people who think crossbows are a bad thing think of how you would feel knowing your going to die and want to share your last moments out doing the things you taught your kids! And the only way is with a crossbow! Think about it!

From: BIG BEAR
17-Jan-18
As far as retail and manufacturing..... That's a no brainer... build and sell crossbows..... in addition to compounds.....

From: Bill Obeid
17-Jan-18
MrWizard, it’s the rare outdoorsman that would deny you a crossbow under your conditions. In any season.

May you enjoy your time afield with your children. God Bless

From: Mrwizard
17-Jan-18
Thank you Bill I appreciate that and I hope to get a big one with the kids...

17-Jan-18
Mrwizard, you’re in my prayers. I hope you get a big one too!!

Do not feel one bit diminished because you use a crossbow. There’s a huge difference between those that chose to use one and those that have no other choice.

From: Mrwizard
17-Jan-18
Imagine how hard it was for me to sell my bows to buy a crossbow. I shot 200 to 400 arrows a day Everyday for almost 30 yrs. Ranked in the top 10 in the northwest. I was shooting aspirin at 30 yrds .Lol I thought the same thing as most people about them. But honestly I don't think about it being a crossbow mine only shoots 40fps faster than my old 80# insanity cpx I've had clean pass through on a 6x6 bull elk at 93 yrds yes long shot but that's what I'm known for and practiced daily for 25 yrs longest kill shot on a deer 134 yrds same compound bow. And that's at 340 fps with 407 gr8 arrow. my crossbow shoots 380 fps witg a 463 gr arrow only dif is I don't to hold it back. And the kinetic energy is way higher on the crossbow and the accuracy is way more consistent 4 inch groups at 100 yrds. I'm not here to try and sell or promote crossbows or toot my own horn ,but for the archer that's disabled and wants to still get out there it'll put the biggest smile on there face. So to make them legal or illegal or make them hunt with rifles so what. It's a way to get people outdoors rather than sit and wait to kick the bucket. I am a true outdoorsman I started shooting a bow when there were no compound bows so to the pulley boys who can't shoot traditional or never have we complained about your compounds when they,became legal also we just didn't have internet to tell everyone how much we hated them! So for people to complain about crossbows is the same thing. It'll pass lol

From: Bill Obeid
17-Jan-18
You know what MrWizard ?........I think I’ll call my kids and tell them how much I love them.

17-Jan-18
Someone asked about the elderly, lugging one around? Well I am 68, kept myself in shape all of my life, but I was born with the heart I got,,,, so last October, God said, I guess you can hunt a few more years,,,,,, I am so lucky, its hard to explain

anyway, working hard to get back to my regular shooting, but have to use a cross bow at this time,,,,,,, I bought a Parker, it was the lightest bow I could find.... You are right, lugging it around, for a mobile hunters like me, is a pain in the a.. but it keeps me going

have to pick my days but I get out,,,,, believe me, the other night, if I had my compound, and my Ultimate Predator Deer Decoy I would have closed the deal,,,, This cross bow, is a 40 yard bow at best, so far,,,,, I hunt in crap, that your lucky to shoot 30...... anyway, its a temporary fix , but I do not begrudge anyone that has to use one,,,,,,

I think it would be more fun for turkeys and bear,,,, In my opinion, the world is a beautiful place, I am glad to be able to see it all, and take in every day,,,,,

A post like this, someone has too much time on their hands, waste of time, I have no time to waste

From: Mrwizard
17-Jan-18
You know Bill life is taken for granted and is fleeting! Just when you think it's perfect it turns upside down. It only takes a few sec to say I love you, cherish everything and everyone makes life so much easier. I thank God for the time I have. And live the rest of my time to the fullest with my wife and kids. 2 wks ago Dr said she was surprised I was still alive and that hit me hard so treat everyday like it's your last! And ground hunter it doesn't matter if you have a slingshot or a tomahawk missile your out enjoying yourself! Keep going and don't sweat the small stuff

From: Silverback
17-Jan-18
If you want to ban crossbows because they are too easy then let's ban compounds as well. Todays compounds with all the bells and whistles are also taking the easy way. I shoot a longbow but I'm actually for shooting what ever you want. I just get tired of the high tech compound guys continually bitching about crossbow guys choosing the easy way. That's exactly what they are doing compared to traditional archery and they see no problem with that. I don't want to hear I have to draw the bow excuse because that is just crap

From: Mrwizard
17-Jan-18
I can't talk anymore but my fingers still work! Lol

17-Jan-18
"I don't want to hear I have to draw the bow excuse because that is just crap"

There's a difference between excuse and fact. With a compound, you still have to draw at the right time, using your own energy, otherwise the shot opportunity is lost. With a crossbow, you can sit in a blind for hours on end, resting on shooting sticks, after you've cocked the crossbow with a mechanical device.

I don't care what you hunt with, but all credibility is lost when someone says a crossbow is no different than a compound. As I posted earlier, there's a huge difference between those that chose to use a crossbow and those that have no other choice.

From: Silverback
17-Jan-18
The message I'm getting from these posts are crossbows are taking the easy way out and they attract many people who won't or can't take the time to practice and become proficient with a real bow. Funny I feel the same way about compound shooters. I never had to put anywhere near the effort into shooting a compound to be proficient as compared to the countless hours I practiced to become proficient with a longbow. Compounds are just a mechanical device that shoots arrows, They are not that difficult to shoot so let's stop pretending they are and that crossbows are just too easy. Me personally,I really don't care what anyone shoots. It doesn't bother me I'm just tired of the hipocracy

From: Mrwizard
17-Jan-18
So you go from no let off with a traditional to 65% let off on a compound to now 80% let off with the new laws and your saying since the crossbow has 100% let off is a bad thing lol . If they made compound bow was 100% let off and was legal you would but one and not complain, technology is changing and either vertical or horizontal at 100% let off every archer would have one so the only dif is pull it back and for me when I was able to I pulled 80# with 80% let off and held it what seemed forever so it's all preference on how you want to shoot and now they just showed a a 5 pin sight with a range finder built in for compound talk about making it easier. There you go take all the guess work out.

From: Pigsticker
17-Jan-18
The pussification of America is the major factor to the decline in bow hunting not technology. Hell, the inline muzzleloader resurrected hunting with a muzzleloader!

From: Slippery Paw
17-Jan-18
Today's hashtag word of the day is....#pussification! Lol!! good one Pigsticker. In all reality who cares what the P&Y Club thinks? I'm a former member but it's just a club. It's their club with rules/restrictions they make and then they complain when the majority don't want to play by their created rules. Just like the 65% let off rule they had to change to keep entries and members interested. It's nothing but an agenda driven organization trying to drive it's own narrative.

From: GF
17-Jan-18
“There's a difference between excuse and fact. With a compound, you still have to draw at the right time, using your own energy, otherwise the shot opportunity is lost. ”

The right time? Well, give or take a few minutes, anyway, but from 65 yards out.... Big flippin’ deal.

So tell me... how much credibility is lost when someone says a compound is no different from a “Trad” bow??? I can hold my bows from about #48 to #53 for a pretty good while before my 15-yard accuracy goes all to hell, but at 85% let-off it’s my BOW ARM that suffers first. You wanna talk about having to draw your bow at the right time? Let’s shrink your effective range to 20-30 yards and see how you do holding #50.

JMO, crossbows are getting authorized mostly because the deer managers in most places are desperate to bring their herds under control, and they’ll use whatever loopholes are necessary to get it done.... and honestly, who gives a rip what people use to do that so long as it gets done? The existing bowhunting population isn’t willing to do it, so why not recruit from a more motivated population?

On the other hand.....

In a state that issues tags by lottery? JMHO, it is inexcusable to authorize cross-guns for anyone who is physically capable of using a vertical bow. And I would extend that definition to prohibit crossbow use by those who simply haven’t grown into the legal poundage; their time will come... and it’d be too difficult to prevent parents from “borrowing” the crossbow when an attractive animal steps into the clear at long range.

And if the odds of drawing an Archery permit are too low, that seems a reasonable basis for rolling back the level of technology permitted; just as the deer managers in overpopulated states need to expand their definition of Archery tackle until they can attract enough participants, if too many people want to hunt Archery season, then they simply have to dial back until a few more people decide that they like their chances better with a firearm OR with their preferred Archery equipment... but during a firearms season.

The one thing here in CT, though...

We have so little public land and there is so much pressure that I really don’t understand why they’ve allowed crossbows for public land Archery; pressure is still much lighter than during shotgun, but (vertical) bowhunting does need less pressure in order to work....

From: Mrwizard
17-Jan-18
I agree GF if you can use a compound then you should and the crossbows should be left for the disabled only but then you will also have people who claim disabled when there not just like the marijuana B.S. when most people who use it just want to get high with a excuse!

17-Jan-18
"The right time? Well, give or take a few minutes, anyway, but from 65 yards out.... Big flippin’ deal."

Here we go again. Another trad hunter making bogus claims about what letoff allows you to do. No one is holding in a shooting position "for a few minutes" and then shooting. Try it. Try taking a compound at the weights that most guys are shooting them at, which is 62-72 lbs, draw it back and see if you can hold it in a shooting position, not some wierd non-shooting position where you'd have to move to shoot, for "a few minutes." Lets see how well you make that 65 yard shot after holding a 70 lb compound for 60 seconds at full draw.

My bow is only at 52 lbs and my groups start to suffer at 45 seconds. Two minutes... forget it. And I've tested other folks too, that draw higher poundage bows. Yeah, they can hold the thing back, but after 45-60 seconds, their groups suck and get worse the farther out they go.

Just because you have a 70 lb bow, doesn't mean you're holding 10.5 lbs. You have to hold at least twice that and more like 2-3 times that to not draw down if you try to hold longer than 30-60 seconds.

The only thing letoff allows you to do is relax your arm muscles to be more accurate at higher poundages. Drawing and waiting is a minority of shots. I've hunted with my recurve and I draw as animals go through cover just like I do with my compound.

From: Glunt@work
17-Jan-18
Hey, the 7 guys in the country shooting Oneidas can hold 0% for a long time if they just put a limb tip on their thigh. Works great for bowfishing. :^)

From: Mrwizard
17-Jan-18
Oneida biggest break through ever in compound! And people have no clue where there compound bow came from... lol

From: Whocares
17-Jan-18
Which weapon do you find more fun for you, personally? Do that. Enjoy hunting? Do that. If in mid January you prefer to bitch about others' fun, do that. I prefer to think about past Falls and those coming up. And ice fish. And have another vodka as I read Bowsite. Spent my life supporting and working for habitat and public land to hunt. Been fun and still is. Really enjoy shooting and hunting with my compound. Oh yeah, and really enjoy rifle and muzzleloader hunting too. Someday may have to see if I get a kick out of a crossbow if I feel like it.

From: Jaquomo
17-Jan-18
I love riding a bike and now I'm really enjoying riding my Rambo electric assist mountain bike.

Pretty sure somewhere there's a thread on a bicycle forum where spandex bike geeks who stick needles in their ass for an advantage are lamenting assist bikes as being the downfall of bicycling.

From: Jaquomo
17-Jan-18
Grubby, I know what you're saying and I agree that many gun hunters are taking up crossbows.

But here in CO we have tons of rifle hunters buying compounds and switching to bowhunting every year because of the season length, weather, elk rut, etc.. They aren't switching to trad bows. Crossbows aren't legal here except with a serious disability. Compounds are cheap and they can quickly become proficient with an entry-level off-the-shelf Diamond, Bear or Bowtech all set up. I see a lot of parallels but the compound guys aren't complaining about that, just as crossbow hunters aren't complaining about crossbows.

BTW, the compound bow harvest rate overtook trad bow harvests here in, oh, about 1975. Since then our archery seasons have expanded. It would be interesting to learn how many compound bowhunters switched from rifles to bowhunting at some point. We already know why the compound was the choice instead of a trad bow.

From: happygolucky
18-Jan-18
I continue to enjoy bowhunting and don't believe the sky is falling despite incessant posts stating the opposite. Statistically, what is happening is that the vertical bowhunter numbers are slowly declining. The xbow hunter numbers are increasing. The gun hunter numbers are decreasing. The kill rate is applicable to the decreases and increases in hunter numbers. The overall kill rate across all weapons is still in line with the historical numbers over say, the last 20 years. So, crossbows have not eliminated the herd in WI, MI, OH, or any other state and that is why seasons have not been shortened. The same was true when compounds hit the landscape in the 70s. Many claimed bowhunting was dead then too. There are still lots of animals for everyone regardless of their weapon of choice. Just hunt and quit worrying so much about what others hunt with.

19-Jan-18
I think there are some differences between the compound revolution and the crossbow revolution. When compounds came on the scene was a time when overall hunting was growing and in many areas deer herds were on the increase. More land was also available to hunters. This coupled with the facts technology such as computers did not compete with our time, youth sports programs were less intense, rural values were more prevalent and hunting more socially acceptable, meant compounds were able to be a very effective archery and overall hunter recruitment tool. A real positive to hunting, archery and game management.

In the above paragraph, none of this is as true during the crossbow revolution. Crossbows are simply another advancement in making killing easy. Crossbows are not a recruitment tool other than moving more hunters from other seasons and into the general archery seasons. No net hunter recruitment, in fact culturally ended bowhunting in the mind of some supportive voters who believed bowhunters hunted the hard way.

From: ELKMAN
19-Jan-18
I'll say it again: Cross guns are the least of our worries, if we have guys out there flinging arrows at animals at 80, 90, even 100 yards and beyond with compounds. Guys are taking advantage of the early/rut type "primitive weapon" seasons and then taking rifle shots with archery equipment. That will lose our seasons/opportunity faster than anything.

From: lawdy
19-Jan-18
The most telling statement was Missouribreaks last sentence. When I showed up at the check-in station with a buck this fall, I went in and while they were filling in the paperwork, about 20 people gathered around my pickup. The wood arrow I used was laying beside the deer and several were peering into the window at my longbow. One guy wanted to look at it and one lady commented, "now that's bowhunting." The check-in station is a big sporting goods store which attracts a lot of granolas with their clothes and camping equipment. It is modeled after ll beans. As a matter of fact, it is called LL Cotes. I attended a deer hunting season hearing in Concord, NH about deer baiting. A guy stood up and told the politicians there how hard it was to kill a deer with a bow and we need baiting full-season. One senator said, "are you kidding, you have carbon everything, tree stands, let-off, and over 300 fps speed." " My son bowhunts with his speed bow and baits." "He kills 3 deer a year." They went from full-season baiting to about a month. In places where there are a lot of deer, high-tech won't matter, but if they ever have a state-wide referendum on a bowhunting season where everyone votes, I wouldn't advise anyone using crossbows as an example of hunting the hard way. Look at the hell Maine has gone through over bear hunting. We live in a politically correct world. Crossbows won't make a difference up here because we have so few deer, but in areas of high density of both deer and granolas who vote, I am not so sure, time will tell.

From: Jaquomo
19-Jan-18
It's very common for me to be asked by nonhunters if I use a crossbow, when they find out I "bowhunt". Crossbows aren't even legal in CO. Most nonhunters don't know the distinction and don't care.

In the real world, it's a non-issue. Only to some bowhunters who live in a small world and have nothing better to fret about.

19-Jan-18
Why don't they make crossbows legal for all hunters in Colorado during the general archery seasons? With all the supporters it should be easy and helpful to Colorado's archery seasons.?

From: jjs
19-Jan-18
Jaquomo, you need to spend a bow season in west central Wi. public land and you may say differently. What may not be in one region it has effected another, apple and oranges. In the real world hunting is a non-issue except to the ones that do it. The x-bow needs to be in the 1 shot rifle season (muzzleloader), period. Enjoy the hunt.

19-Jan-18
What is the position of the Colorado Bowhunters Association on crossbows?. From the posts seems like crossbows for all hunters in the general archery season would be a great fit for Colorado.

From: trophyhill
19-Jan-18
Those who refuse to change with the times will be left behind. The rest of us? We'll just keep killing with our bows ;)

From: Jaquomo
19-Jan-18
The dead horse has officially been beaten to jello. The CBA is strongly against crossbows in archery season, just as they supported going to an either-or bowhunting vs. rifle hunting opportunity.

You can't compare CO to MT. CO has nearly 70,000 bowhunters now. During the September season we also have MLs, rifle bear, high country rifle deer, and 5.5 million nonhunting people in the woods hiking, biking, camping, wood cutting, leaf peeping, and scouting for rifle season. We have draw tags for everything archery except some elk and Pronghorn units. If you bowhunt, your season is over. Adding crossbow hunters to the drawing odds and public land pressure would wreck the opportunity even worse than it is today. Crossbows are legal during rifle season here. That's fine. Not sure where you get the idea that I'm for them universally in archery seasons? Perhaps you don't read posts or have developed some reading comprehension issues. You keep suggesting "One season, all weapons, everyone lumped together at the same time". That's just plain stupid in a state like CO with hundreds of thousands of hunters all vying for the same piece of pie. Missouribreaks, I believe you may be Rancid Crabtree back under yet another assumed identity. A laxative might help you out. Your incongruous logic is all over the map, and you seem like a truly miserable individual.

HOWEVER, and read this carefully - in states where most hunting is done from treestands for whitetails and mostly (EDIT - PRIVATE) land, where bowhunters can also hunt in multiple seasons with guns after the archery season and kill multiple deer throughout by simply buying more licenses, I don't see it as that big of an issue. Nonhunters don't see an issue at all.

WY allows crossbows during bow season. Wonder why WY hunters aren't freaking out over it? As I posted before, in a full month in WY last year with all sorts of bow seasons going on, I only encountered one crossbow- one old guy with a shoulder problem. He didn't stray far from camp.

Crossbow popularity is rising. Bowhunting isn't in decline because of it, but rather because of the same variables affecting the overall decline in hunter numbers. People confuse correlation with causation, which is not surprising given the lack of instruction in critical thinking in the educational system over the past 40 years.

19-Jan-18
Why don't you and the CBA fight to make crossbows legal for every hunter during the Colorado general archery seasons?

19-Jan-18
What about you western guys in states such as Montana and Colorado? Are crossbows wonderful as long as they stay out of your state? Do you want them in your state for every hunter during all archery seasons? What you say and why, here is your chance?

From: ELKMAN
19-Jan-18
Hell no we don't want em here! No gun should be aloud in an archery season...

From: jjs
19-Jan-18
The advertisement for the Ravin x-bow as "The New Rifle" explains it all and should be used as the poster to the state game commission to be put in the gun season, brilliant piece of marketing for the gun season.

From: Jaquomo
19-Jan-18
I just posted it above , "Jimmy James". See above. Why are you afraid to register with your real name, "Jimmy"? Nobody said crossbows are wonderful, except the DNRs that like the additional revenue from selling additional licenses and archery tags.

So Rancid, err.. "Jimmy", err.. Missouribreaks, why don't you explain why your "one season, all weapons" idea is so great for bowhunters?

From: 6x6 bull
19-Jan-18
In Missouri two years ago the MDC had a series of Town Hall meetings that were set up to see what people thought about allowing everyone to use a crossbow during archery season. I went to one expecting a large presence of pro crossbow users, when I got there it was at least 10 to 1 against the inclusion. You could tell that the MDC was not prepared for this. They assured us that our herd was in good shape and could withstand the small additional kill and wounding rates of that weapon. Nothing was said about all the EHD and other factors brought up by Jacoumo. He stated how it would be great for hunter recruitment to let the young and old keep and start hunting with a crossbow. It was quickly brought up that anyone could go to a doctor and get a waiver to let an impaired person use one. I went to that meeting not to yell and scream about hunter overcrowding on conservation lands or how many more deer would be killed but to express my view that unless we start our youth with the vertical bow young they will never establish a passion for archery! When you practice with your crossbow on shooting sticks and every shot hits the x what would drive you to practice and get better? You have to think that if I shoot more that I will get better. You have to feel that perfect shot and fall in love with the magical flight of the arrow or archery will be a dying sport in just a few generations. That is just my opinion and I know people that make a living off of hunting see it in a completely different light.

From: LBshooter
19-Jan-18
Long shots are becoming more and more popular with the tv shooters, i.e. Lee, and Levi and Tim wells, just a matter of time til all the others follow suit. So what's the difference if guys do it with a crossbow? I'd rather have guys shooting game at 80 to 100 yards with a crossbow vs a compound.

19-Jan-18
Thank you, exactly like I thought. Crossbows are fine as long as they stay out of my state!!!!!!!

From: Jaquomo
19-Jan-18
Nope, what I'm saying is that every state is different, with completely different variables and situations.

"Jimmy", why don't you guys in Montana (if you truly are from Montana) lobby to make your state either- or, so no rifle hunting is allowed by bowhunters after the archery season?

19-Jan-18
I would be fine with one long season, hunt with any weapon you choose. I am certain I am in the minority.

From: Jaquomo
19-Jan-18
So you're all for crossbows and rifles during archery season in Montana, or wherever you really live? But you're against crossbows during archery season in other states? Wow. You need more than laxative, "Jimmy".

From: Catscratch
19-Jan-18
Thinking that they care what hunters want is going be misleading at best. Legislation is being approached relentlessly by manufactures and lobbyist with promise of improved economy, funding, and riches. Make no mistake, inclusion was not brought about by hunters. Every state that has inclusion is instantly filled with crossbows in every box store and archery shop (often times the first brand to fill the stores is the same brand that lobbied the hardest, kind of like they knew what was going to happen and had their orders in first). In my opinion, anyone who is against CB's have little to worry about from their fellow hunters but instead should place blame on politically influential manufactures.

19-Jan-18
I am not against crossbows, it is too late for that in most states. I am for recognizing the impacts crossbows may have, being honest about them, and adjusting accordingly.

I do not think guys who are from states where crossbows are not allowed by all during general archery seasons should feel that affected hunters in other states cannot be concerned about issues in their states. It may be " so what" to you in your state where crossbows are not allowed by all,....... but that does not mean hunters in affected states do not have their own concerns.

From: Jaquomo
19-Jan-18
"Impacts they 'may' have"...

Yes, just as we heard about the impacts compounds would undoutedly have.

From: tradmt
19-Jan-18
There have certainly been impacts, some good, but the bad has really outweighed the good in the last 10+ years and as long as we keep increasing tech to make bowhunting easier it's only going to get worse.

The shrinkage of huntable land is choking out a lot of folks and most of that shrinkage is due to landowners outfitting or leasing to outfitters, and now they even block access to public land!

From: BIG BEAR
19-Jan-18
Why in the hell would you want rifle hunters hunting the same time as archers ?? It's bad enough that many of the orange army has picked up crossbows to hunt during archery season.... now you want one season where all the rifle hunters are in the woods blasting away while we're bowhunting....

Why ???????

From: happygolucky
19-Jan-18
BIG BEAR, it should be obvious. Mb posts the same shit on every board over and over telling everyone bowhunting is dead. So, using that logic, what difference would rifles make? His idea is absurd and he's just trying to stir shit. He just wants people to wallow in his misery and he does seem to be miserable. Some compound hunter or crossbow hunter definitely pissed in his Cheerios once.

From: Pigsticker
19-Jan-18
“In the real world, it's a non-issue. Only to some bowhunters who live in a small world“

I hunt with 3 crossbow hunters every in a low density area on public land since 2011. I have killed four bucks and the others have killed two. This is strictly a buck hunt where I have been chastised significantly for shooting a probable P&Y candidate. My brother who is seventy and can no longer draw a compound turns down 140 class bucks every year. He has seen deer that he would shoot but between to far, to dark, and to much brush he has not killed. I do not see these guys as a great risk to to the sport and they are by far more selective than most. This is in the East but I think that it would apply in most states East of the Mississippi.

Like Jaquomo said “every state is different” I would not like for them to convolute the lottery in premium draw areas for deer, elk, and especially sheep. Many states are not achieving the desired deer kill so what difference does it make. I live where you can kill 2 bucks and 10 doe so what difference does it make. We are the enemies of bow hunting and a society that is declining in the character that supports bow hunting or hunting in general.

From: lawdy
19-Jan-18
The biggest danger to bowhunting or all hunting is that unless you own huntable land in the future or are wealthy, there will be no place to hunt. Public land is just that, public, no quarantee that hunting will be forever. When the feds up here were taking comments about land use in their last CCP, over half of the comments came from Kalifornistan and on trapping, it was a resounding no. We ended up with no turkey hunting, no bobcat hunting, no bear hunting with hounds, no berry picking, no tree stands or blinds left overnight, and no bicycle use. The next CCP is expected to eliminate snowmobiles. A referendrum where the majority of voters don't hunt can change everything. There is a reason why the greenies are pushing for a national park encompassing Northern NH, Maine, Vermont, and New York, no hunting. I find it incredible that residents of some states can't find places to hunt without driving two hours to a public area, while nonresidents with big bucks lease or buy up property. In NH, we have a thing called current use. My land is under current use. Anyone can hunt my farm and I pay 10% of what my taxes should be. All our timberlands are wide open and the land gets taxed when they cut. Fathers that can't hunt don't raise hunters and guess how they will someday vote on hunting referendums. No one on this site will see hunting or bow hunting disappear, but our grandkids could see the end or nonexistant for the average working guy. A far as bowhunting, it won't disappear, you just won't recognise it. As we replace woodsmanship with technology our hunting IQ drops. Deer don't get dumber so in the end, the big buck wins.

31-Jan-18
All WI bowhunters should attend the spring hearing in April to vote on this issue. As well, all WI firearms deer hunters should also vote on this issue. This season the crossbower's success percentage on bucks far exceeded that of bowhunters and firearms hunters. This is a documented fact from the WI DNR. The long crossbow season and the advances in crossbow technology have allowed an unintended advantage to those using a crossbow. The playing field needs to be leveled and this means adjusting the season so all hunters realize approximately the same level of success.

This was copied from the Leatherwall Forum, not posted by me.

31-Jan-18
Lawdy,,,, my uncle came from NH, (beautiful state),,, he was a grouse and woodcock hunter,,, retired he came to the UP and N Wis to hunt,,, he was here 2 weeks,,, went home, sold his house, and moved....... just that fast,,,, gone now, he loved them birds

From: Mad Trapper
31-Jan-18
I had the pleasure of hearing Jim Shockey speak at GSCO. He said that the vertical bow industry has experienced about a 25% decline in revenue in recent years. I also had a prostaffer who is plugged into one of the prominent bow manufacturers who confirmed Shockey's statement.

From: TrapperKayak
31-Jan-18
Xguns during gun season, or a one week season of their own, only. No xgun use during any bow season. Or if physically limited. All other use for hunting, not allowed.

From: lawdy
31-Jan-18
Groundhunter, partridge are incredible eating. Just as soon as I get a deer, I break out my fowler and stock up for winter. Woodcock are great too but it takes a few to make a meal. When the big flights come in to the alder covers it is crazy shooting. I live way up North near the border. From the ridge behind my house, looking South, I can see Mt. Washington.

From: Jaquomo
31-Jan-18
Did they finally give up on banning compounds over on the LW? Think how great it would be for us trad guys if we could make that happen!

From: lawdy
02-Feb-18
Jaquomo, this is my idea, allow anything that throws an arrow into archery season. When it forces a 3 day season, we then approach our respective wildlife departments and propose a new, low impact season. It will be a season for ancient recurves and longbows using actual wood arrows, and the cycle starts again. Better yet make it self bows with flint heads. That just might fly now along with a slingshot season, blowgun season, and club season. For the Western states, a lasso season. Rope it and choke it. Seasonal Disorder Syndrome is hitting us hard.

From: Tonybear61
03-Feb-18
1. The bow and arrow was invented in Africa approx. 64,000 years ago. The concept eventually spread to Asia and Europe.-There is some new data suggesting that archery has been around 180,000 years ALOT longer then previously thought.

There's a difference between excuse and fact. With a compound, you still have to draw at the right time, using your own energy, otherwise the shot opportunity is lost. With a crossbow, you can sit in a blind for hours on end, resting on shooting sticks, after you've cocked the crossbow with a mechanical device.

I don't care what you hunt with, but all credibility is lost when someone says a crossbow is no different than a compound. As I posted earlier, there's a huge difference between those that chose to use a crossbow and those that have no other choice. -The common point in many of these threads is folks forget about "adaptive" archery equipment. Many would could still use their bow if they made modifications (arrow draw hold) teeth instead of fingers, change bow arm, etc. Plenty of people with disabilities shooting drawn bows quite well without having to go to crossbows, air bows and such.

The I don't care what you hunt with also gets thrown around. Obviously hunters do care about the methods and techniques-other wise there would be any weapon all season. Separation of these groups should reduce conflict. But when certain people want to throw them all together in a feeble attempt to recruit and retain all hunters you get a bad situation.

Shockey is a complete idiot for supporting the use of airbow in archery seasons. Purposely causing conflict, if he knows anything about archery tradition and how a lot of bowhunters feel, which apparently he doesn't.

From: Single bevel
03-Feb-18
Well said.

From: 1boonr
03-Feb-18
Long bows are the only traditional bow. Everything else is modern. If they made everybody hunt with longbows, the compound guys that consistently kill deer at close range would still consistently kill deer with the longbow. The guys that switched from compound to longbow so that would have an excuse for rarely shooting anything would still rarely shoot anything but their excuse would be exposed.

From: Jaquomo
03-Feb-18
1boonr with all due respect, if we cut to the chase the only true "traditional" bows are selfbows with no rest on the riser. Even sinew-backed "laminated" selfbows were a technological advancement that improved the durability and efficiency.

03-Feb-18
I believe any bow that "stacks" when drawn by hand is pretty traditional.

From: Jaquomo
03-Feb-18
Good point MB. That means that a compound which "stacks" during the first half of the draw cycle and again as it approaches the "wall" would be considered traditional too.

So what's all the fuss about?

03-Feb-18
I have no issue with compounds, they can be traditional if you want them to be.

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