Busted Guide
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
elvspec 23-Jan-18
elvspec 23-Jan-18
elvspec 23-Jan-18
JTV 23-Jan-18
Trial153 23-Jan-18
Heat 23-Jan-18
elvspec 23-Jan-18
wildwilderness 23-Jan-18
mathewshooter 23-Jan-18
elvspec 23-Jan-18
Ucsdryder 23-Jan-18
NvaGvUp 23-Jan-18
NvaGvUp 23-Jan-18
skipmaster1 23-Jan-18
NvaGvUp 23-Jan-18
md5252 23-Jan-18
wildwilderness 23-Jan-18
md5252 23-Jan-18
Ucsdryder 23-Jan-18
ACB 23-Jan-18
ACB 23-Jan-18
Scar Finga 23-Jan-18
Franklin 23-Jan-18
NvaGvUp 23-Jan-18
Bill Obeid 23-Jan-18
elvspec 23-Jan-18
Tracker 23-Jan-18
boman 23-Jan-18
Medicinemann 23-Jan-18
Fin little 23-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 23-Jan-18
midwest 23-Jan-18
Irishman 23-Jan-18
Brotsky 23-Jan-18
elvspec 23-Jan-18
GF 23-Jan-18
Matt 23-Jan-18
elvspec 23-Jan-18
StickFlicker 23-Jan-18
Arrowhead 24-Jan-18
Robear 24-Jan-18
Scoot 24-Jan-18
snuffer 24-Jan-18
elkstabber 24-Jan-18
md5252 24-Jan-18
LINK 24-Jan-18
ELKMAN 24-Jan-18
BTM 24-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 24-Jan-18
RutnStrut 24-Jan-18
Scoot 24-Jan-18
Bullhound 24-Jan-18
elvspec 24-Jan-18
Michael 24-Jan-18
Brotsky 24-Jan-18
Conch 24-Jan-18
Rut Nut 24-Jan-18
YZF-88 24-Jan-18
gobbler 24-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 24-Jan-18
Bullhound 24-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 24-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 24-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 24-Jan-18
WapitiBob 24-Jan-18
Bill Obeid 24-Jan-18
Conch 24-Jan-18
WapitiBob 24-Jan-18
Bullhound 24-Jan-18
wild1 24-Jan-18
elvspec 24-Jan-18
LINK 24-Jan-18
Trial153 24-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 24-Jan-18
HDE 24-Jan-18
HDE 24-Jan-18
Amoebus 24-Jan-18
Rut Nut 24-Jan-18
APauls 24-Jan-18
HDE 24-Jan-18
Bullhound 24-Jan-18
Rut Nut 24-Jan-18
GF 24-Jan-18
Florida Mike 24-Jan-18
Bullhound 24-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 24-Jan-18
duvall 24-Jan-18
Scoot 24-Jan-18
stealthycat 24-Jan-18
Bill Obeid 24-Jan-18
DL 24-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 24-Jan-18
HDE 24-Jan-18
rattling_junkie 24-Jan-18
stealthycat 24-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 24-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 24-Jan-18
Bullhound@Home 24-Jan-18
Trial153 24-Jan-18
Fin little 24-Jan-18
WapitiBob 24-Jan-18
Trial153 24-Jan-18
Ucsdryder 24-Jan-18
WapitiBob 25-Jan-18
Rut Nut 25-Jan-18
Fuzzy 25-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 25-Jan-18
Conch 25-Jan-18
DL 25-Jan-18
elvspec 25-Jan-18
Duke 25-Jan-18
Brotsky 25-Jan-18
Mt. man 25-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 25-Jan-18
jdee 25-Jan-18
stealthycat 25-Jan-18
bad karma 25-Jan-18
Zim 25-Jan-18
deserthunter 25-Jan-18
elvspec 25-Jan-18
HDE 25-Jan-18
Bullhound 25-Jan-18
HDE 25-Jan-18
WapitiBob 25-Jan-18
Bullhound 25-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 25-Jan-18
HDE 25-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 25-Jan-18
Scar Finga 25-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 25-Jan-18
jdee 25-Jan-18
HDE 25-Jan-18
HDE 25-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 25-Jan-18
GF 26-Jan-18
TD 26-Jan-18
Trial153 26-Jan-18
wilhille 26-Jan-18
EmbryOklahoma 26-Jan-18
deaver25btb 26-Jan-18
Hh76 26-Jan-18
Drummer Boy 26-Jan-18
Scar Finga 26-Jan-18
Trial153 26-Jan-18
Trial153 26-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 26-Jan-18
wild1 26-Jan-18
md5252 26-Jan-18
Trial153 26-Jan-18
elvspec 26-Jan-18
elvspec 26-Jan-18
Topgun 30-06 26-Jan-18
jdee 26-Jan-18
DonVathome 26-Jan-18
Lee 26-Jan-18
jdee 26-Jan-18
Trial153 26-Jan-18
Hh76 26-Jan-18
Lee 26-Jan-18
jrb(CO) 26-Jan-18
Lee 26-Jan-18
Bullhound 26-Jan-18
Brotsky 26-Jan-18
Ucsdryder 26-Jan-18
GF 26-Jan-18
trophyhill 26-Jan-18
Trial153 26-Jan-18
WapitiBob 26-Jan-18
Jaquomo 26-Jan-18
YZF-88 26-Jan-18
Scoot 27-Jan-18
From: elvspec
23-Jan-18
Ouch! Guess that wasn't worth it. https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/01/23/prominent-arizona-guide-loses-hunting-rights-in-47-states-for-poaching-a-desert-bighorn-in-utah/

From: elvspec
23-Jan-18

elvspec's Link
Here's a link to the story.

From: elvspec
23-Jan-18
I just looked at this guy's website. He's a highly accomplished sheep guide and surely some of you on this site know of or even know the man. While I understand the frustration I personally don't understand the risk.

From: JTV
23-Jan-18
I guess this means he wont be at that sheep show 'eh ...

From: Trial153
23-Jan-18
So much preemption there.

From: Heat
23-Jan-18
Met him about 10-12 years ago. Issued him a permit where I used to work to hunt and gave him a briefing. Nice guy, and very good guide. Dumb as all get out too I guess if he thought he was going to get away with that one!

From: elvspec
23-Jan-18
Yeah Trial153, I guess its just that very thing that is at the heart of the matter and the spirit of the regulations.

23-Jan-18
I was unaware of the "special or temporary" clause in the UT law for residency. I wonder if he physically lived (slept) in Utah for the 6 months prior to applying, if he registered to vote, paid state income taxes.... etc.

I know Alaska is tough on the resident hunting qualifications- 12 months with having to physically be in the state for at least 9 of those.

23-Jan-18
Should have lost his ability to guide hunters too!

From: elvspec
23-Jan-18
Wildwilderness, if i remember correctly 12 months was the same when I moved to Colorado in the early '90's. I remember waiting all year just to go fishing w/o paying out of state fees. I guess in this case it was the "special" that got him.

From: Ucsdryder
23-Jan-18
I guess I don’t see the huge issue here. He moved to Utah and got a drivers license met minimum requirements for months in state to become a citizen. Apparently he got caught on the clause of moving for a special purpose. 30k in fines and 10 years and a felony conviction?! Give me a break.

Guys killing animals out of season, killing multiple animals, etc pop up here weekly and aren’t getting close to the same punishment.

I personally feel bad for the guy. I never feel sorry for poachers.

Put yourself in this guys shoes. You’re 69 with the dream of having this tag. You are retired and not tied to a specific state. You decide to move to the state for the hunting opportunities. How many guys talk about moving to Colorado when they retire for the increased hunting opportunities. How’s this different?

From: NvaGvUp
23-Jan-18
Somehow, unfortunately, I am not all that surprised.

From: NvaGvUp
23-Jan-18
"How’s this different?"

Well, duh!

It's different because he was not a legal resident!

Sadly, I've seen this same thing here in NV.

Guys have fraudulently claimed NV residency in NV using a relative's address. Being a NV resident increases your sheep draw odds by a factor of ten or more.

From: skipmaster1
23-Jan-18
I guess the law is the law but it's a BS law. How many guys move to Alaska for a year or two just to hunt? A lot. Or even more common, the guy living in Illinois and moves just across the line to Iowa so he can still live in the same general area but hunt both states every year. The way I see it, you are a resident or you aren't. Now, if someone bought/rented s place a just pretended to live there, well that's a different story.

From: NvaGvUp
23-Jan-18
According to the court and the jury, it's not a BS law and Altimus was FALSELY claiming to be a UT resident when, in fact, he was not.

From: md5252
23-Jan-18
To call the guy a “poacher” is ridiculous in my opinion

23-Jan-18
That's why I wondered if he actually lived/Slept in UT. I agree the law should be clear as to residency and if he met the requirement or not.

My concern with the "special" seems to subjective. I don't want the government telling me that I can't legally be a resident just because I moved there to hunt.... think how many people do that when they retire.

Think what Commifornia could do with that- If you move to our state to hunt then you can never be a legal resident.....(but if you come here illegally then you are protected)

From: md5252
23-Jan-18
To be honest, if i was 69 and had 21pts I might consider doing the same thing. “Special purpose” clause???Give me a break

From: Ucsdryder
23-Jan-18
Nvga he didn’t fraudulently live there. He got caught on a technicality of “special”. He moved there, got a drivers license, met the time minimum. According to the story you can’t move to the state for a specific reason which is ridiculous.

Sounds like you might not be the biggest fan of this guy based off your first reply though.

From: ACB
23-Jan-18
If he met all letter of the law to be a resident and apply for tag , like it or not it is a bad convection.

From: ACB
23-Jan-18
All they have to do to fix this is change regulation to say if you move into state you start over on points as a resident . We are seeing this More and More in our liberal society authority wanting to interpret intent and this is a dangerous slope we are on .

From: Scar Finga
23-Jan-18
What a crock of Shiznit! I think a lot of you are way Holier than thou! I bet 90% of you coming down on this guy have broken laws or taken short cuts or cheated on your taxes your wife or whatever! Give it a rest! Or... Show me what you are made of, and walk on water! LOL!

From: Franklin
23-Jan-18
If you move to another state and surrender your drivers license and you qualify for residency....you are a RESIDENT of that state. The "purpose" is of NO CONCERN to anyone but you and your family. If you live in Illinois and move to Iowa you are not a resident of BOTH states....only 1 is your residence.

The "points" discussion is a different topic.

From: NvaGvUp
23-Jan-18
He did NOT live in UT. That seems clear.

It also appears he only 'established' residence in UT so he could apply as a UT residence while he was actually living in AZ.

From: Bill Obeid
23-Jan-18
He could have used a tad bit more common sense!!!!

Did what was required to gain citizenship and then moved back to Arizona BEFORE he even hunted the sheep. Talk about rubbing it in the face of the authorities!

Kanab and southern Utah is just beautiful. No reason he couldn’t have stayed a few years. Plus, move to a little town like Kanab and everybody knows what’s going on... somebody turned him in from town I bet.

In 15 years I’ll have 31 sheep and points and if I need to move to Utah I will. But I’ll stay.Sounds like I’ll still be doing something illegal. Too bad cause southern Utah is a nice place to retire

From: elvspec
23-Jan-18
After I posted this I figured it would raise some interesting dialogue. I sort of feel bad for the guy because he probably felt that he was meeting the requirements lawfully, maybe not though. I think the kicker here is he moved back to AZ right after drawing the tag. Which means when he actually took the animal he wasn’t a resident. Resident tags in my mind are just that. For residents that pay taxes to the state they reside in and support the state wildlife management programs of that state. That’s why they get better odds on a draw and pay cheaper license fees, they already subsidized the system. So in my mind the spirit of the regs need to be considered. I’d like to hear a Utah sheep hunters opinion to get a better perspective on it.

From: Tracker
23-Jan-18
The guy tried to scam the system and got caught. He poached the sheep just not it the traditional means. Think about the true resident that did not get to hunt that SHEEP. If some of you were that person I think you would play a different tune.

From: boman
23-Jan-18
Utah considered him a nonresident even though he lived there but I bet he still had to be Utah State income tax for while he was there.

From: Medicinemann
23-Jan-18
What is most surprising to me is that he not only got convicted of a felony....he has probably jeopardized his income stream as well......after all, who would want to use a hunting service created by a convicted felon? A Desert Bighorn Sheep is an incredible animal to hunt.....but at the cost of a Felony and an income stream? Yikes....

23-Jan-18
Tracker is right.The man was convicted by a jury in Kane county of a wildlfe crime. That's not easy. It was a solid case. He was turned in by a well known It sheep guide that knew what he was trying to get away with. They had residents that were due to draw testify. He got caught at what he intended. We all know it. I'm a resident with a pile of sheep points and odds are I will die with out drawing the tag in the Zion unit that is litterally on my back property line. So no tears about being 69 and not drawing.

From: Topgun 30-06
23-Jan-18
This guy isn't the run of the mill guy that just want to hunt and kill one sheep. The SOB and his wife have money and both have multiple grand slams. He's a crooked SOB poacher and needs to also lose his business license to operate as an agent, guide, etc. As a convicted felon he also won't even be able to own a firearm the rest of his life and that's the way it should be. If he cheated once on this and got caught he's probably been a cheater all his life and just lucked out until now and greed finally got him.

From: midwest
23-Jan-18
It just blows me away that some people are so obsessed with killing some certain animals that they are willing to cheat, steal, and screw everyone else to get it.

How about the resident that would have drawn that tag had this crook not cut in front of the line. How would you feel if you were in his shoes? And the guy that would have drawn after him and so on. That tag is gone as well as the sheep.

From: Irishman
23-Jan-18
We have a guy in Montana, attempting to get the nomination to run for senator, who bought Montana in state hunting licenses for years while he was a California resident, paying California state taxes not Montana taxes. He also illegally gave his elk license to someone else. This guy is the CEO of a company in California, who can well afford to pay the extra for out of state licenses. Another example of someone with lots of money trying to cheat the system.

From: Brotsky
23-Jan-18
We actually have a business here in SD that people use to establish residency. It's basically a building with post office boxes in it. It's mainly used by retirees that don't want to pay state income taxes. They travel and live in RV parks year round etc but have "residence" here, even though they spend no time here. They use the address to register their vehicles and get driver's licenses etc. I think it's BS and I think this situation was BS. I also think karma is a real thing and it finally came home to roost for this thief.

From: elvspec
23-Jan-18
Fin thanks for the resident perspective. I hope you get a sheep tag one day. Topgun I tend to agree with the cheating part. Typically not a one time thing.

From: GF
23-Jan-18
“e. I sort of feel bad for the guy because he probably felt that he was meeting the requirements lawfully...”

In a pig’s eye. He went for the legal loop-hole and it turned into a noose when he got caught.

The only reason you get screwy-sounding laws like this is because somebody was gaming the system, got caught, and got off on the technicality.

Most states require that if you move out of state, your resident license is voided out; one year I relocated from MN to CO in August; didn’t hunt CO because I couldn’t spring for the NR tag, and when I went on the annual deer trip with friends in MN that year, I was on a non-res tag. Kinda sucked.

So when I realized I was going to be moving East.... I waited ‘til after Elk season.

And by the way... I don’t cheat on my wife, I don’t cheat on my taxes, and I haven’t had a speeding ticket since 1989, just outside of Laramie. Judge would’ve let me off, too, but I pled no contest because the Trooper had me dead to rights.

So I hope I’m righteous enough to be entitled to the opinion that this guy knowingly, deliberately and specifically violated the Intent of the residency requirement.

From: Matt
23-Jan-18
I never knew so many lawyers frequent this site.

The irony of this happening in Utah of all places is pretty funny.

From: elvspec
23-Jan-18
GF, I also said “maybe not”. Without knowing the whole story I didn’t want to stone the man. However after Fin’s comments it’s clear he knowingly broke the law. Plus according to his website he’s an expert in helping with tag application. Heck, he’d even rent you an apartment apparently. ??

From: StickFlicker
23-Jan-18
"Altimus’ web site features dozens of photographs of him posed with clients and their deceased trophy animals..."

....deceased trophy animals.... My favorite part of the story. Obviously not written by a hunter.

From: Arrowhead
24-Jan-18
Wooo , Back up! When I was in the Military I could declare to be a resident in New Mexico after living there 90 days. Get a resident hunting license and hunt several species. Could also apply for an Elk Tag (Drawing) never drew one but applied. I knew for sure I would not be living there permanent. This guy obviously spent a ton of money and did everything he could to get this sheep tag. (Which I personally think is insane) but to be this nit-pick over the rules of a hunt is in my opinion based off of jealousy and envy. "I don't ever intend to spend that kind of money to hunt sheep". The prices of such hunts are ridiculous in my opinion. J.M.H.O.

From: Robear
24-Jan-18
20 years ago I spent a bit of time with Larry and his wife bowhunting mountain goats in the Lee Metcalf Wildemess. From what I could gather in that week of hard hunting in hard country, they are both good people, and I enjoyed their company very much. That has nothing to do with drawing sheep tags, and people can change with time but they certainly didn't strike me as crooked SOB poachers.

From: Scoot
24-Jan-18
Lol Matt- not lawyers, just a lot of people who frequent Holiday Inn Express.

I'm certainly no lawyer (thank goodness) but what he did sure doesn't pass my sniff test.

It does seem like there is some mixed info above, or I'm misunderstanding something. Did he physically move there and live there the required amount of time as was said in the link or did he simply get a sham address in Utah where he actually did not live? Kyle suggested the latter but the article said the former. Regardless it does not seem right to me. But as Matt points out- I know nothing about the law regarding it and I'm just giving my view on what feels really unethical and crappy to me.

It seems like a real BS move to me. For those who feel so sorry for this guy, he scammed legitimate residents out of a highly coveted tag. It's a tag that goes for the better part of six figures for crying out loud!

From: snuffer
24-Jan-18
Article says convicted by a jury, not sure what the lawyer comment is all about? Oh wait....

From: elkstabber
24-Jan-18
He owns a license application service and is a guide. He knew the rules and was convicted of breaking them. The rule is trifling, but he broke it.

From: md5252
24-Jan-18
Btw, people do this “residency” thing all the time to be able to go to good out of state colleges without paying outrageous out of state tuition. Lots of other examples where it’s done too. Just saying...

Human nature will always be human nature so don’t be so quick to judge

From: LINK
24-Jan-18
Sounds as if the flaw is in the licensing system not in what this guy did. If he indeed lived there for his minimum time and changes his drivers license and only left after drawing the tag, I don’t see what’s wrong. Sounds like a case of the state moving the goal posts after the kick. The value of these tags will cause people to do things like this, the law should be stated clearly in the regs.

From: ELKMAN
24-Jan-18
If Ucsdryder is correct in all his facts, I completely agree with him. The guy went through a lot to meet the laws parameters, and got busted on what I would guess could be construed as an unconstitutional technicality. The guy applied for 23 years AND moved to another state to hunt an animal! I would say if he is guilty of anything it would be of having a very distorted view of life's priorities... (And he's OLD as hell give him a break)

From: BTM
24-Jan-18
It's important to distinguish between residency in the eyes of the "general" state government vs. residency in the eyes of the Game and Fish. The example one poster gave about South Dakota PO boxes might be fine for vagabond retirees who travel all over and don't live in any specific state, but trying to get a SD hunting license might be more restrictive.

For example, when I moved to WY I got a driver's license, bought a house, got a job, paid taxes, etc., but G&F didn't consider me a resident until I lived here 365 days.

24-Jan-18
It appears to be that he met requirements to be a resident of Utah. What’s the flippin’ Problem then? Because it’s a sheep tag?

I’m sure glad I read the whole article. Stupid people say stupid things. And, to me, based on what was written in that article, he met requirements to be a Itah resident.

Every single one of us live where we do based on what it offers us. This is no different.

This guy did something I wouldn’t do. But, he derrainly didn’t break any laws from what I’ve read.

From: RutnStrut
24-Jan-18
This kind of reminds me of when I moved to Wyoming from WI in 2008. I was there just shy of a year. From day one I was considered a "resident" for all things that would make the state or city I lived in money. However I was not considered a resident for fun things such as hunting and fishing. You should be able to have it one way or the other, not both. It's all good though, I hated that godforsaken state. Been back in Gods country of West Central WI since 09. It may not have helped my view of WY that I lived in Rawlins. Now that's a shithole.

From: Scoot
24-Jan-18
According to the article, "Under Utah law, however, hunters are not to obtain a resident hunting permit if they move to the state for a “special or temporary purpose.”"

Sounds like his intentions were to move there temporarily to get the tag. Apparently the court saw it this way too. Given his background and line of work I'm sure he understood what he was doing and tried to get away with something that he ultimately didn't get away with.

From: Bullhound
24-Jan-18
Do you guys think that a guy that is in the guiding and licensing business doesn't know what the law is on this????

Freakin REALLY??? You don't think he knew what he was trying to pull on the state? Or better yet, the actual RESIDENTS of that state?

Hell, I've got some great land I'll sell ya!!

From: elvspec
24-Jan-18
BTM that was the same for me when I moved to Colorado verbatim back in the 90's. Just the way it is.

From: Michael
24-Jan-18
South Dakota actually has pretty lenient residency requirements whether it’s for the state or game and fish.

I know Iowa’s are pretty strict compared to SD.

If I remember right the company Brotsky talks about also covers Montana.

My residency is a joke. Do to my job I am all over the country. I can count the number of days on 1 hand I slept in my own bed in 2015.

At one time I thought about buying a house in Wy and claiming residency there as well as getting rid of my place in Mn. I chose not to since it would be farther to drive to be home the few times a year I do get to go home.

From: Brotsky
24-Jan-18

Brotsky's Link
There's actually a few of them getting into the game now in SD. Here's a link to one to show you guys what I'm talking about. I'm 100% sure we have some guys in this farce that are competing with me for resident elk tags in SD. What can you do though, they are meeting the resident requirements. I think UT has it right with their "special purpose" provision.

From: Conch
24-Jan-18
I sat through the entire trial. My first thoughts were Larry simply beat the system. kudos to the prosecutor in this case. He did an outstanding job of representing the residents of Utah. Mr. Altimus and his wife seem like nice people, however, it was clear to me after all the evidence was presented that INTENT was a key factor in the conviction. I believe Larry's defense was weak at best. And he did have a very skilled attorney working his case. I live in the unit and I will likely never get to draw a tag. Larry was working on his fourth grand slam. I have no ill feeling towards Larry but the conviction was fair. In my opinion.

From: Rut Nut
24-Jan-18
If you have ANY common sense, what happened here is pretty clear! Like some have said, he knew full well what he was doing, took a chance at beating the system and LOST! And the audacity of moving BACK to Az before the hunt..........................................I'm sure that played a key role in the decision!

And, you think maybe UT wanted to make an example of him????? ;-)

From: YZF-88
24-Jan-18
"The irony of this happening in Utah of all places is pretty funny"

It would be even more ironic if it was WLH that turned him in or raised the flag given their part in the Nebo sheep that was killed in an off limits unit.

From: gobbler
24-Jan-18
I figure there’s a fair chance that if he wasn’t well known in the hunting community, especially the sheep hunting community he may have gotten away with it

24-Jan-18
It doesn’t matter if he did it with intent. That law is so open ended it’s going to be abused.

Like I said, it wouldn’t be worth it to me. But, he met residency requirements. What’s the problem?

From: Bullhound
24-Jan-18
Conch, thanks for the first hand perspective.

From: Topgun 30-06
24-Jan-18
There are sure a lot of people on here that seem to either have a real problem with ethics or can't read and comprehend a simple residency requirement that he violated. The guy moved to UT for a very short time just to scam the system and apply for a tag that as soon as he got then moved back to his home state. He had a three day jury trial and was found guilty of violating the law by all on that jury, so why is it that some think he got screwed when the only ones that got screwed were ones that could have drawn that tag legally and killed the great ram that he illegally took! It's no wonder that hunting has big problems nowadays when so many people that call themselves hunters can't seem to find a problem with crap like this and those like this guy that lie and cheat to get ahead of everyone else that are playing by the rules!

24-Jan-18
Really? There seems to be even more that can’t see past the sheep to see that he MET residency requirements. I’m not a genius but, they don’t give you residency status unless you meet the states requirement to be one. It’s different in every state but, of the half dozen I’ve lived in, you have to produce evidence that you meet this requirements. Was that not done here? From the article it’s safe to assume it was. So, who’s got the reading comprehension problem.

No one can read jurors minds. Only a black and white printed law. The only thin open to debate is if that open ended law was upheld. It appears his peers thought so. No sense in saying those that disagree with you can’t understand what they read. Had he got another panel of jurors the outcome could have been different. Remember, OJ was found innocent at his criminal trial.

From: Topgun 30-06
24-Jan-18
From: WV Mountaineer 24-Jan-18Private Reply Really? There seems to be even more that can’t see past the sheep to see that he MET residency requirements. I’m not a genius but, they don’t give you residency status unless you meet the states requirement to be one. It’s different in every state but, of the half dozen I’ve lived in, you have to produce evidence that you meet this requirements. Was that not done here? From the article it’s safe to assume it was. So, who’s got the reading comprehension problem. No one can read jurors minds. Only a black and white printed law. The only thin open to debate is if that open ended law was upheld. It appears his peers thought so. No sense in saying those that disagree with you can’t understand what they read. Had he got another panel of jurors the outcome could have been different. Remember, OJ was found innocent at his criminal trial.

LOL, as you obviously are far from being a genius after reading that post!! I was in LE for over 30 years and know how the system works. This guy chose a trial by jury and HAD a fair trial where it takes EVERY person on the jury that is looked at individually by the prosecution and defendant BEFORE they are chosen and sworn in to decide whether the guy was innocent or guilty based on what was presented to them by both sides. YOU, and those like you, that can't see the forest for the trees and think the guy met requirements when he didn't and why he was found guilty by EVERY member of that jury need to take go back and learn some reading comprehenson, not me buddy!

From: WapitiBob
24-Jan-18
Utah has a 6 month residency requirement. 6 months before you buy a license, which is only needed to apply, not to hunt. Therefore, UDWR added another law to deter those who would move there for the sole purpose of gaining a tag. Seems reasonable considering Utah is the hotbed for monetizing game animals. The guy got caught and rightfully so.

From: Bill Obeid
24-Jan-18
“Under Utah law, however, hunters are not to obtain a resident hunting permit if they move to the state for a “special or temporary purpose.”

“In August 2013, he rented a house in Kanab, moved his belongings there and obtained a Utah driver license, according to Stott. Using the Kanab address, Altimus applied the following March, not long after meeting the six-month threshold for residency, “

“ A few weeks after winning the tag, Altimus moved back to Arizona”

Sounds like his move was for a special reason and temporary!

All this to complete his 4 th FNAWS sounds just a tad bit greedy........ doesn’t it?

Sounds like this guy could have bought his fourth desert sheep in Mexico!

From: Conch
24-Jan-18
Read the Utah code in relation to Residency and Domicile. It makes it very clear.

From: WapitiBob
24-Jan-18
the pertinent info

(13)

(a) "Domicile" means the place:

(i) where an individual has a fixed permanent home and principal establishment;

(ii) to which the individual if absent, intends to return; and

(iii) in which the individual, and the individual's family voluntarily reside, not for a special or temporary purpose, but with the intention of making a permanent home.

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title23/Chapter13/23-13-S2.html

From: Bullhound
24-Jan-18
Yes Conch, for anyone with half a brain, it spells it out pretty clearly.

From: wild1
24-Jan-18
Actually, he was a LEGAL resident, but the law reads that if you become a legal resident for the purpose of obtaining a "resident hunting permit" - "moving for a special of temporary purpose", then you committed felony fraud. Jury found that he took steps to "illegally game Utah's system for awarding sheep tags." I don't like what he did, but the penalty is a lot more severe than what has been meted out for worse offenses. It is what it is though.

From: elvspec
24-Jan-18
Thanks Bob. I was gonna do the same but didn't get to it quick enough. Seems pretty cut and dry, not "open ended" as some have implied.

From: LINK
24-Jan-18
Seams to me he didn’t violate the letter of law only it’s intent. Did he game the system? Sure. Sounds like Utah needs a better system and a better written law that is black and white that doesn’t need interpreted.

From: Trial153
24-Jan-18
This was a slam dunk otherwise it never would had made it to trial.

From: Topgun 30-06
24-Jan-18
From: Trial153 24-Jan-18 This was a slam dunk otherwise it never would had made it to trial.

***Tell that to our resident genius WV Mountaineeer, LOL!

From: HDE
24-Jan-18
Where was the juror pool selected from? Did he recieve a fair trial by a jury of his peers?

When I moved to UT for college it took 1 year to establish residency for tuition purposes. I bought a resident fishing license after being there for 6 months because the rule book said so. I had a UT drivers license, a UT vehicle registration, UT voter registration, UT address, and UT bank account. I even "surrendered" my NM hunters safety card for a UT one. I didn't deer hunt until the year I established residency for tuition purposes.

Did I poach as well since I moved to UT for a "special purpose"?

From: HDE
24-Jan-18
If anyone is pissed about a resident tag being stolen, what about the expo tags given out of the NR pool...?

From: Amoebus
24-Jan-18
So, if the guy had done everything the same leading up to the draw, stayed in UT until after he shot the sheep, then moved back to {wherever} - should that be illegal? How long would someone have to stay until they would pass the requirements of “special or temporary purpose"?

I can see (and agree with) the intent of the law - but can see why people are questioning how it works in practice.

From: Rut Nut
24-Jan-18
HDE- did you withdrawal from college and move back to your home state as soon as you got your deer tag?

From: APauls
24-Jan-18
"can't hunt in 47 States." Dang it, all these poachers prob come to Canada after they can't hunt in the States.

From: HDE
24-Jan-18
My home state at the time I bought my first and second deer tag(s) was UT. It was also my home state when I applied for Bull Moose and earned my first bonus point. I never went home in the summer to work.

Had I drawn the moose tag as a resident, would that mean I would be unable to move to another state until after the hunt, or would I have to surrender my tag to a "very deserving" resident? The year I applied I also graduated...

With the right twist, anyone who moves to UT for a job or school is moving there for a "special purpose". What isn't a special purpose?

With all the responses of unfairness to "stay put residents", seems to be a tinge of a witch hunt going on...

From: Bullhound
24-Jan-18
HDE, you are REALLY stretching it.................

From: Rut Nut
24-Jan-18
HDE- I think you know what I was talking about. If you moved to UT for school or a job and could prove it, I think it would be a completely different story. I highly doubt a jury would convict you.

But this Altimus fellow obviously was NOT moving there for a job or school since he was 69 and retired!

From: GF
24-Jan-18
“Plus according to his website he’s an expert in helping with tag application. Heck, he’d even rent you an apartment apparently. ??”

Aaaaand there you go.

JMO, active duty military and vets who retired after a full career should get Res tags wherever they are, and maybe even wherever they want to go.

From: Florida Mike
24-Jan-18
The whole Resident/Nonresident idea is flawed. I am an American. We should all be treated equally. You should not have an advantage or disadvantage based on the color of your skin or which side of the tracks you live on or if your rich etc. And before anyone attacks me, consider this; if you think its okay to give someone and advantage based on where they live then it should be okay for the rich guys and PETA to buy up the land and even tags. Discrimination is still discrimination even when it benefits you....

From: Bullhound
24-Jan-18
Florida Mike, go back to sleep..........................

24-Jan-18
Topgun, you need to take your own advice. Slow down and read.

You don't know me nor, are you qualified enough to state what you have about me and others you are lumping into your step child group. I'm no abuser of any law.

I've stated what I think of what this guy did. his intent and how it differs from what I would have done. Also, whether I agree with his actions. And, I've asked one simple question. Because I don't want an open ended law deciding what is plausible and not "special purpose" for all sportsmen. It's a slippery slope. If you can't deal with that, I'm ok with it. But, your experience doesn't lend you anymore special then anyone's opinion on this matter.

How in the world could a law be so open ended to say "specfal purpose". Who decides that with any amount of structure?

From: duvall
24-Jan-18
not all discrimination is bad. if I'm a resident in a state you better believe I want better odds of pulling a limited tag. I'm paying taxes in that state and you aren't. I'm just resigned to the fact that i won't be able to hunt some places because I'll never draw a tag as a NR but thats my choice where i live. residents who pay taxes to keep their home state running should have higher odds of pulling tags. if that's discrimination in your book well so be it.

From: Scoot
24-Jan-18
WV it sounds like you know this law really well. Can you educate us on the details of it and what does and does not qualify as "special reason" or "temporary" as defined by said law?

From: stealthycat
24-Jan-18
odd

he did all this - risked his business, spent all the money in faking the residency etc for a 0.00676 % of drawing a tag ? wow - that's putting all your egg's on a 6 thousands of a chance of drawing a tag aint it ?

From: Bill Obeid
24-Jan-18
I think his odds were much better because of his point total

From: DL
24-Jan-18
I read somewhere both he and his wife have Grand Slams. The idea that someone is old and may not get drawn doesn’t fly. I’ve put in for 30 years here before I got drawn at 67. I never expected to get drawn in my life but that’s the way the systems are. Here in Ca they draw an alternate in case the hunter can’t go. What if you had put in for 30 years and had cancer? What if you knew the end was coming and this was your last chance or your dad or kid? Then find out the hunt that you were an alternate to was stolen by this smuck? He knew what he was doing and knew the risks if he got caught. Now he will probably go to Mexico and shoot a $50,000. Ram. I know a retired government Hunter and trapper that knows him personally. He said it was about time he got caught doing illegal activities.

From: Topgun 30-06
24-Jan-18
From: WV Mountaineer 24-Jan-18Topgun, you need to take your own advice. Slow down and read. You don't know me nor, are you qualified enough to state what you have about me and others you are lumping into your step child group. I'm no abuser of any law. I've stated what I think of what this guy did. his intent and how it differs from what I would have done. Also, whether I agree with his actions. And, I've asked one simple question. Because I don't want an open ended law deciding what is plausible and not "special purpose" for all sportsmen. It's a slippery slope. If you can't deal with that, I'm ok with it. But, your experience doesn't lend you anymore special then anyone's opinion on this matter. How in the world could a law be so open ended to say "special purpose". Who decides that with any amount of structure?

***The more you type the more you show your ignorance or lack of willingness to follow what the law states just because you don't appear to agree with it. I'm not going to debate this with you any longer since you obviously are one who will not listen to reason because if you can't see that what this guy did was specifically intended to circumvent the law that was stated here in black and white and why he was convicted then there is nothing more that anyone can say to you. The guy moved there for as short a time as he could to apply for a tag that is coveted by tons of people and he not only took away a tag from a person that deserved it, but also took an animal from the herd that was not his to take. He knew what he was doing and was so greedy that he turned into a poacher, yes a poacher. Now he won't be able to hunt in 47 states for ten years or even be allowed to own a firearm as a convicted felon. We need all the states to take violation of game laws seriously and if all egregious violations were handled like this one just maybe some of this illegal crap would stop!

From: HDE
24-Jan-18
Blatantly, he did what he did because there are very few, if any, NR permits and/or hunts for some species in UT. Becoming a "resident" increased his odds by opening up more hunt options.

It's obvious not too many people have read the definition set forth by the Big Game App Guidebook (for today's discussion on page 71 of the 2018 edition). It states what those "temporary and special purposes" are and is a combination of both educational/religious leave and assigned armed services duty and how residency applies to both for the purpose of hunting, fishing, and trapping. Apparently my posts above did not spark an interest by some to find out where I was trying to go...

In order for this whole debacle to be legit, he would have had to sever ALL claimed residency ties and benefits for hunting, fishing, and trapping purposes with AZ.

(Side Note: if he only fished at Lake Powell, his Resident AZ license would be reciprocal with UT).

24-Jan-18
That's a ridiculous law. Who cares why you move there. But it's the law and he should've respected it.

From: stealthycat
24-Jan-18
Altimus actively sought these Utah tags, and by 2013, he had amassed 21 points toward a desert bighorn sheep, more points than earned by any in-state hunter, according to court records.

Altimus applied the following March, not long after meeting the six-month threshold for residency, and drew a permit to take a bighorn from the famed Zion hunting unit — just one of 11 awarded that year.

In 2014, according to DWR data, 5,174 Utah hunters vied for 35 desert bighorn tags, while 7,184 nonresidents vied for three.

I'm not sure how the weighted points or that states draw .............. but it wasn't a sure guarantee was it ? Just seems like a massive gamble

24-Jan-18
TopGun, I'm done man.

Scoot, since my whole stance has been on not knowing what qualifies as "special Interest", I can't do that. Since I'm sure you already knew that, maybe you could elaborate on what else it covers.

24-Jan-18
I wander if he didn't draw the first year but, did the second or third and, handled every thing else exactly the same, would be still be liable under the "special interest" clause? It would still be obvious why he did it. But, would he still be the poaching, stealing, piece of crap that punishment says he is?

I'm not defending him. But, there seems to be quite a few here hanging their hat on the "Letter of the Law". Again, what would that be in these proposed instances?

24-Jan-18
give it up will ya

From: Trial153
24-Jan-18
Special-purpose entity, in this case temporary residency is created to fulfill a narrow, specific, or temporary objective. In this case draw a resident sheep tag. Slam dunk. Any prosecutor with a damn wound have that evidence in the bag before a wiff of this ever got to a docket.

24-Jan-18
I'm not sure but l think 21 points put him ahead of any actual resident and guaranteed him the tag. Again we all know his intent. Rationalize all you like, that's the bottom line.

From: WapitiBob
24-Jan-18
Think your right fin. This was discussed a year or so ago for Wyoming if I remember correctly; a nr becoming a resident and having more points than The max resident.

From: Trial153
24-Jan-18
Pre 2015 you could draw Zion 100 % with 21 resident points.

From: Ucsdryder
24-Jan-18
It’s like giving someone a 20k dollar fine for a parking infraction. Did he break the law, sounds like it. Was a felony conviction, 20k in fines, and 10 years of hunting restrictions warranted? Not a freaking chance.

From: WapitiBob
25-Jan-18

From: Rut Nut
25-Jan-18
The guy tried to beat the system and lost. Probably should have thought about the consequences beforehand.

From: Fuzzy
25-Jan-18
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+tube+%22special+purpose%22&&view=detail&mid=85CB28CBFD9064F78CD485CB28CBFD9064F78CD4&&FORM=VDRVRV

From: Topgun 30-06
25-Jan-18
From: Ucsdryder 24-Jan-18 It’s like giving someone a 20k dollar fine for a parking infraction. Did he break the law, sounds like it. Was a felony conviction, 20k in fines, and 10 years of hunting restrictions warranted? Not a freaking chance.

***Do you have any freaking idea what that Ram he took was worth in just about any state that charges restitution for a game law violation? ! The guy was a cheating SOB and deserved everything he got and more when he decided to roll the dice and cheat trying to claim NR status for just a few months and then moved right back to AZ!

From: Conch
25-Jan-18
In my opinion fines and restitution need to be steep. If not, why wouldn't we just all take the chance at a bighorn. Odds of being caught are slim. Penalties are a deterrent for people who cant live with laws.

From: DL
25-Jan-18
I wonder how many on here that think the penalty was too stiff have ever gone after a desert ram? Also how many have put in for 30+ years to hunt one and would give anything for that opportunity ?

From: elvspec
25-Jan-18
The penalties in this case seem justified. I agree with whats been said previously here. If fines for game infractions were steeper then there would be less of it. I'm always surprised at how low fines are for what I see as serious offenses. Shooting deer at night, exceeding bag limits, etc.. The fines appear as just a slap on the wrist then their out doing it again. These kinds of folks are always repeat offenders for that very reason.

From: Duke
25-Jan-18
The guy undoubtedly broke the law as it was written. No doubt in my mind. Was the law fashioned correct? -An entirely different issue. -There was intent and knowledge of what was being done through calculated steps... Certainly, not a wise move to say the least. -I am not going to sit here and cast stones at the guy as he got his just deserts.

To bring in the fact that he was 69 years old is entirely irrelevant. -This would make other offenses justifiable. Does the man who has played the Mega-Millions lottery for years and is now getting old have justification to rob the Mega-Millions headquarters? How about the guy who has cancer that decides he is justified to hunt a high profile draw state because it'll be his last fall? It's just not how our society works nor should it be.

From: Brotsky
25-Jan-18
The UT desert tag sold for like $60k at the sheep show. He's lucky he didn't get a $60k fine!

From: Mt. man
25-Jan-18
No sympathy here. I agree with many here that HE KNEW exactly what he was doing and did it deliberately to cheat the residents out of a tag. No sugar coating it. Fine as Brotsky said should have been the equivalent on the auction tag. $60K He gambled for a stupid trophy and lost. Greed and ego took that ram away from the herd. He was intentional and is a poacher in my book.

From: Topgun 30-06
25-Jan-18
Like his age to some was the reason he had to cheat, LOL! In case people are not aware of this guy, he and his wife both have multiple sheep slams, so it's not like he had to cheat in order to finally be able to take a sheep. The SOB has killed more sheep that just about anyone in this country and had to take "just one more" and by doing it the way he did he became just another Poacher!

From: jdee
25-Jan-18
Guys that think it was ok what he did and think he was was fined to high and disagree with a felony and hunting loss probably haven't been buying and waiting on points for 20 plus years trying to draw that sheep tag..... Just an other guy with a big head full of himself just like Kurt Darner, Nole Feather and the rest of the phony, wannabe poachers.

From: stealthycat
25-Jan-18
"Pre 2015 you could draw Zion 100 % with 21 resident points."

that makes more sense then - still amazing because him going through all that trouble and money to get the tag vs just buying an auction tag ..... yes, the auction tag much more BUT no risk

how much has this guy lost because of this ? his hunting life, business, reputation, plus all the cost of the temp moving and court fee's .....

poor decisions :(

From: bad karma
25-Jan-18
None of us were present for the trial. I think had he remained in Utah for a couple of years after drawing his tag, it would have been hard to convict. Moving after drawing the tag but before the hunt, when you're a high profile guy, is the height of arrogance. Apparently the jury thought he was a carpetbagger for the lottery, which was hard to disprove when you consider the timing of his return to his prior home.

Really stupid. He has an issue to appeal, but I suspect it will be futile.

From: Zim
25-Jan-18

Zim's Link
I agree that he gamed the system and under the current law is indeed guilty. That said, I find it comical that the average hunter wants to get out the rope to string this guy up when its the outright corrupt practices of the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and their collusion with Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife that is systematically limiting our opportunity at these premium tags on a continuing basis. There are other threads on this topic but the initial fervor seems to have died out in the last year after the attached new story broke. This continues to be a major point of contention for me. Poaching is disgraceful, but the degree of outright corruption in the Utah DWR is abhorrent.

From: deserthunter
25-Jan-18
Not to many years ago he was mister desertsheep man in Texas. He bought pretty much all available tags for his clients. Done it for a number of years. I work with a number of those ranchers and it didn't take long for them to get disgruntled with him. They finally kicked him off their ranches. A couple of them ate their tags till the could find other outfitters to work with. He knew full well he was trying skirt the law in Utah.

From: elvspec
25-Jan-18
Zim, i did some reading about the issue with the Expo sometime ago and have followed it a bit. Its no less of an outrage.

From: HDE
25-Jan-18
He broke the law if: 1) he claimed residency in AZ for hunting purposes prior to applying as a resident or, 2) he claimed residency in AZ for hunting purposes after he drew as a resident and hunted with a resident sheep tag.

Again, I reference page 71 of the rule book. Pretty plain and easy-peasy to follow what it reads.

That is about the only thing that would've actually nailed him. Moving to a state for an increased chance at a draw is not the issue. Moving back after the draw is not an issue. Claiming residency for hunting purposes in two states is the issue.

Anything else is sour grapes...

From: Bullhound
25-Jan-18
ZIM, I'm with ya on the crooked dealings with SFW. They tried real hard to get their hooks in here in Idaho and I'd never trust a word from those crooks.

HDE, it's the law, he got caught, he gets to pay the piper. He likely feels like he ate some sour grapes at this point!!!

From: HDE
25-Jan-18
Bullhound, nobody ever said it wasn't. The "cheating a deserving hunter" arguement has nothing to do with it. The Expo does that very well every year and a certain crowd of people are giddy about it. If there is only one NR permit available, having max points doesn't do for you what two available permits will do. A guy with zero points can draw the one permit.

The case had to be based on his claiming residency in AZ for any reason, in the case of the rules and regulations, hunting purposes. Has nothing to do with the relocation itself. I could never find where it reads in the rules and regs that you have to prove you moved and gained residency status for something other than applying as a resident. The only thing it addresses other than 6 months of something normal, such as a job, is education (continuous 60 days prior to buying), religious, or military reasons.

But to get worked up about moving, qualifying for residency, applying, drawing, then moving again before the hunt is nonsensical at best UNLESS HE RECEIVED BENEFIT FOR HUNTING IN AZ AS A RESIDENT PRIOR TO THE HUNT IN UT. Any other reason is a witch hunt and the focus is temporary residence. So what, unless he claimed...

Had an average Joe guy moved for a job, or whatever reason, with intent to recieve UT hunting and draw benefit, drew, then moved back because he hated that job, or just the state for whatever reason, nothing would've been said or done UNLESS HE SOUGHT RESIDENT HUNTING BENEFIT OUTSIDE OF UT to the state he moved back to - at that point, he brakes the law. Not by moving to and from.

Had he done it right, he wouldn't have broke the law and be labled a poacher, just a guy who is envied. I'd love to move [back] to UT to increase my ability to draw rather than hope for what's left over after the Expo allocation as a NR...

Not defending what he did, just challenging the response of the "lynch mob". The vindictiveness is stifling, as usual.

From: WapitiBob
25-Jan-18
He applied as a Utah resident and drew a tag as a resident. He failed to meet the definition of a Utah resident per udwr regulation. Specifically, the definition of a Domicile, as defined by udwr.

From: Bullhound
25-Jan-18
Again HDE, it's the law, he broke it, he got caught, he gets to pay the piper. you got a problem with that, too bad.

As far as I can tell, not one person on this thread has punished him nor has anyone suggested he burn at the stake.

25-Jan-18
HDE, It appears that TopGun isn't the only person so juiced up with himself, that he can't recognize when people aren't even arguing with him.

From: HDE
25-Jan-18
Bullhound - you haven't read a thing what I wrote, don't know what to tell ya...

The guy didn't mind his P's and Q's. That's it, and that's all. The definition of a domicile as defined above contradicts what is written in the rules and regs for another part. No wonder it's easy to screw up...

From: Topgun 30-06
25-Jan-18
From: WV Mountaineer 25-Jan-18 HDE, It appears that TopGun isn't the only person so juiced up with himself, that he can't recognize when people aren't even arguing with him.

***I thought you were done with me, but obviously you aren't, LOL! I have a big problem with liars and cheaters and if you don't then I also have a big problem with you, so get a life and the same with HDE!

From: Scar Finga
25-Jan-18
So I see a lot of... I think, I believe, the intent of of his actions... Do any of you really know this man? His intentions? What HE thought was right or wrong??? I bet not! If he intentionally broke the law then he got what he deserved, however, if he did not intentionally break the law then I feel the punishment out ways the sin. He is the only one that can truly answer this questions. If he is willing to be honest. Other than that, it is all speculation and assumption... You know what they say about the word ASSUME?

From: Topgun 30-06
25-Jan-18
From: Scar Finga 25-Jan-18 So I see a lot of... I think, I believe, the intent of of his actions... Do any of you really know this man? His intentions? What HE thought was right or wrong??? I bet not! If he intentionally broke the law then he got what he deserved, however, if he did not intentionally break the law then I feel the punishment out ways the sin. He is the only one that can truly answer this questions. If he is willing to be honest. Other than that, it is all speculation and assumption... You know what they say about the word ASSUME?

***The guy has hunted sheep since the 60s, has two sheep grand slams along with his wife along with owning two different businesses that deal with tag applications and guiding. If you think there is even a remote chance the shmuck didn't know that he was violating the law, you're another that would probably buy swamp land in AZ from a huckster, LOL!

From: jdee
25-Jan-18
The jury heard the evidence and hit him pretty hard. Doesn’t that say something ?

From: HDE
25-Jan-18
Topgun - I have a life and don't get my jollies from being a hateful and spiteful motormouth. Congrats to you that you are. Sad actually. If you would actually read what people write in a post, processed it, and comprehended it, you wouldn't look like a arrogant ass in public.

You cuss and swear people for trying to have a dialogue and then get twisted up because you wear your feelings on your sleeve when you perceive they disagree with you.

Get lost...

From: HDE
25-Jan-18
jdee - yes. Where the guy really messed up is he didn't give up AZ for resident benefits. That is where the fraud comes in.

From: Topgun 30-06
25-Jan-18
From: HDE 25-Jan-18 Topgun - I have a life and don't get my jollies from being a hateful and spiteful motormouth. Congrats to you that you are. Sad actually. If you would actually read what people write in a post, processed it, and comprehended it, you wouldn't look like a arrogant ass in public. You cuss and swear people for trying to have a dialogue and then get twisted up because you wear your feelings on your sleeve when you perceive they disagree with you. Get lost...

***Sorry, but I will not get lost and I get very tired of reading BS from people like you and WV Mountaineer that try to come up with everything under the sun to try and say that a person isn't guilty or didn't do something like this on purpose and just got trapped by a law that wasn't written properly or that they don't agree with. The vast majority of those on this and other websites see this case for what it is/was and it's too bad that some have to try and dream up some reason for why a guy might be innocent when he is as guilty as sin! PS: You're also incorrect in your last post to jdee!

From: GF
26-Jan-18
“Seams to me he didn’t violate the letter of law only it’s intent. Did he game the system? Sure. Sounds like Utah needs a better system and a better written law that is black and white that doesn’t need interpreted.”

ALL laws “need interpreted”. If you think the legislative process is too slow and cumbersome NOW, then just imagine if a law had to be written to include provisions regarding every possible scam that anybody might ever come up with...

So just for example… When states like Colorado set up their muzzleloader season’s, the only muzzleloaders that existed were antiques, replicas of antiques, and a few slightly-more-modern variations like the Thompson-Centers, with their period-incorrect 1:48 rate of twist for those maxi-balls. The legislators and the fish and game department did not write in prohibitions against in-lines and scopes and pelletized powders and saboted bullets BECAUSE NONE OF THAT CRAP EXISTED AT THAT TIME. Everybody already KNEW what a “muzzleloader” was.

And unfortunately, the laws can rarely keep up with those who will explain every possible loophole in order to gain a little extra advantage for themselves. It always amazes me that you can talk to a group of people with largely “small government” sentiments, and yet find so many who want the laws to do all of their thinking for them.

This guy was not Robin Hood. He was not out there winning one for the little guy and redistributing wealth from those who had taken it (wrongfully) to those who honestly needed it. This was this guy’s BUSINESS. And I’d be willing to bet that the jury threw the book at him because he had done this not only on his own behalf, but had turned it into a (most likely) extremely profitable enterprise as he assisted others in gaming the system to provide them with opportunities that full-time, perhaps life-long residents could only dream of.

And if you can find anything admirable in that, I will be more than happy to say that we are simply cut from different cloth.

From: TD
26-Jan-18
If he in fact just set up a front to cover his residency and never really resided there.... or if he claimed residency in two states, etc. etc. I can see the conviction. I don't know the specifics.

My only problem is it's not the business of that state or any other state to determine what the "intent" of moving there was. Have you ever moved to another state and been questioned as to your reasons or purposes for moving there were? I'm guessing many here posting have never moved to another state in their lives. If I'm retired I don't have to move there for work or school, could be just moving there because I liked the scenery. Or the taxes. Or the cost of living. Or the climate. Or maybe the people.... heheheheh.... but if I meet residency requirements and buy a hunting license or apply for a tag that somehow changes.... really?

It's not the state's business why they moved there....or the residents business why. It's called interstate commerce.... it's literally in the Constitution.

He likely broke the law.... as it is written. What I question is the legitimacy of a law that allows others in some appointed position of power to determine your "intent" when you have actually broken no laws? It's certainly not against the law to fulfill residency requirements. (legally) or for a legal resident to buy a hunting license and go hunting..... and it's not against the law to apply and draw a tag. But if your "intent" on moving there was not "pure" and did not involve hunting "someone else's" state...... good grief....

If this is what they wish to avoid in the future there are many ways to do it differently within the wildlife dept. Real GLARINGLY simple ways that do not bring in any "intent" for anyone in any position of power to interpret, Simply make a non-resident forfeit their points when becoming a resident. Easy. Maybe TOO easy.

Utah did not do that, although they CLAIM that is what the regulation/law is about. From all I can gather his biggest issue was not swearing on a bible he planned on being a resident forever and ever. Or having upset the wrong people. "Intent"? Go wizz up a rope..... I'll move and live in any state I like. If I want I'll meet any residency requirements as I like. Totally up to the state to set them. Up to you to meet them. But setting up two or three different sets of rules for "legitimate" residency is BS. It's nobodies business as to my "intent". Period.

Knowing Utah.... my guess is there are a good many people this has benefited..... if you are the right people...... but that's just a guess. Trying to reconcile as to EXACTLY why a regulation/law was written with such ambiguity or "intent".... good luck.

From: Trial153
26-Jan-18
We at least you can never accuse this place of having too many lawyers.

From: wilhille
26-Jan-18
I kind of get a kick out of Topgun..... he gets SOOOOOO pissed! Something tells me he doesn't talk to "real" people the way he does on the internet though..... Or he is the toughest SOB in the world! Carry on

26-Jan-18
Man, you guys like to argue. Go hunt something! But... do it legally. :)

From: deaver25btb
26-Jan-18
I have read all the comments, and have to side with the crowd that says this is BS.

As they say “Don’t hate the player, hate the game”. How long should someone have to live there in order for it to not be temporary and not show that the intent was to hunt as a residence? I have seen time and time again on Bowsite, where people say they have or want to move to Alaska or Colorado for the hunting. How long do you have to stay there before moving away and being called a poacher?

Just because people are mad that he beat the system in place because he shot one of “your” sheep, doesn’t mean that he broke the law. The spirit of the law? Maybe. But convicting him on his intent?!?! Give me a break.

From: Hh76
26-Jan-18
The law was written, specifically, to prevent what he did. He earned a living helping hunters to work around residency requirements, and should have know better.

From: Drummer Boy
26-Jan-18
TD I can not agree more,I thought the same thing.

From: Scar Finga
26-Jan-18
What TD Said++++

From: Trial153
26-Jan-18
Special or temporary purposes. Where are all you apologizing felony supporters getting intent....oh wait it sounds good to sympathetic ears .

On another note I am looking for some house mates to rent a flat in WY, if you all have lots of NR points I can cut you in. We can take turns picking up the mail when we’re all in state. Moose and sheep tags here we come.

From: Trial153
26-Jan-18
In August 2013, he rented a house in Kanab, moved his belongings there and obtained a Utah driver license, according to Stott. Using the Kanab address, Altimus applied the following March, not long after meeting the six-month threshold for residency, and drew a permit to take a bighorn from the famed Zion hunting unit — just one of 11 awarded that year. “We proved it was all for this permit,” Stott said. A few weeks after winning the tag, Altimus moved back to Arizona, then returned for the fall hunt, where he bagged a ram.

But but but but that wasn’t his intention......^^ please stop. This kind of shit is will be our ruination as hunters.

26-Jan-18
TD for prez.

From: wild1
26-Jan-18
Trial - It most likely was his intent. The problem, some people see, is that ones "intent" is no one else's business. People move for all kinds of reasons - none of which (most people will argue) is the governments business - especially when you meet the requirements (to become a resident). It's kind of a slippery slope when the government attempts to get into citizens heads.

I personally respect the justice system in this case, but I also think it's quite ok to question, both the law, the intent of the law and the weight of the consequences. Healthy dialog and public opinion, not only have a place, be should have a place

From: md5252
26-Jan-18
How does anyone ever complete the grand slam of sheep with the numerous residency requirements and low odds?

I’d bet he wasn’t the first to gamble on a loop hole...

From: Trial153
26-Jan-18
I have read the statute its lacking the ambiguity that is being tossed out in this discussion by the Apologist among us. You people are acting like this is a law that is Unique to Utah. They're all laws in place in almost every state and Jurisdictions that put restrictions on temporary residency for a variety of reasons, not limited it to wildlife and tags. Intent is 100% relevant and applicable in regards to the law. This has been established across a gamut of legal considerations. It's the reason that you may be charged with manslaughter Versus 1st degree homicide. . This guy broke the law period, and glad a jury of his peers thought so as well.

From: elvspec
26-Jan-18
"Healthy dialog and public opinion, not only have a place, be should have a place" Agreed.

From: elvspec
26-Jan-18
“I have read the statute its lacking the ambiguity that is being tossed out in this discussion by the Apologist among us. You people are acting like this is a law that is Unique to Utah. They're all laws in place in almost every state and Jurisdictions that put restrictions on temporary residency for a variety of reasons, not limited it to wildlife and tags. Intent is 100% relevant and applicable in regards to the law. This has been established across a gamut of legal considerations. It's the reason that you may be charged with manslaughter Versus 1st degree homicide. . This guy broke the law period, and glad a jury of his peers thought so as well.”

AMEN!

From: Topgun 30-06
26-Jan-18
From: Trial153 26-Jan-18 I have read the statute its lacking the ambiguity that is being tossed out in this discussion by the Apologist among us. You people are acting like this is a law that is Unique to Utah. They're all laws in place in almost every state and Jurisdictions that put restrictions on temporary residency for a variety of reasons, not limited it to wildlife and tags. Intent is 100% relevant and applicable in regards to the law. This has been established across a gamut of legal considerations. It's the reason that you may be charged with manslaughter Versus 1st degree homicide. . This guy broke the law period, and glad a jury of his peers thought so as well.

***This is exactly why I'm flabbergasted at how many people on this thread have their head up their rear in regards to residency requirements and are making the stupid statements that are coming out. Yes, as a retired LE person I get really wound up when I read stuff like this that is so cut and dried as to what he did and violated and then read a bunch of whiny people making statements about how he got screwed, the government is out to get them, etc. EVERY state has residency requirements and every one of us is a NR in all but one state and the state we call our main residence is the only place where we can legally hunt/fish on a resident license!

From: jdee
26-Jan-18
I have 18 non res points for elk in AZ and live in NM any one want to lend me their address until I become an AZ res and draw the tag I’m after ? Got to much going on here in NM to move, don’t want to give up my LO tags unless I can get them in my wife’s name. I want one of the few tags for unit 23 N and don’t want to wait any longer.. I wonder if ole Larry would go for it ?

From: DonVathome
26-Jan-18
For this guy to get busted and labelled a felon is ridiculous. If He had done this and not paid state taxes all the guys saying he deserves this would bash him for not paying and say he DID live in there!

Do you understand how serious a felony is? There are thousands who plead down FAR worse crimes to less then a felony every year.

Anyone who let hunting in AZ influence there decision to live there could also be convicted.

I feel bad for him.

From: Lee
26-Jan-18
When I was younger I got a chance to move to northern Missouri from the coast of GA. I was single and jumped at the chance to move there because the whitetails were so big and I love hunting them. My thin southern blood barely survived the winter there and I moved on within a year. My intent was for the hunting! I left because the winter SUCKED and I didn't want to face another! So should I have been cited for gaining resident status to hunt?

Seems to me to be a pretty slippery slope when a government entity tries to get into someone's head and try and interpret what they were thinking. As someone stated above come up with something black and white with NO gray. There is a lot of gray in that law - just saying.

From: jdee
26-Jan-18
Missouri whitetail tags are unlimited over the counter. Nothing like a Utah Zion sheep tag worth many thousands of dollars , waiting many years and buying points year after year . If there is a law on the books and it is a felony I would stay away from it . I wouldn’t take the chance of getting charged with a felony . Guess he wasn’t to worried about the felony at the time especially if he’s been hunting and applying for sheep tags for many years. I don’t feel sorry for him , it’s kinda like the guy having a few drinks at dinner , blows a .08 and gets his 2nd or 3rd DUI on the way home......Felony......But I only had two drinks officer .

From: Trial153
26-Jan-18
The law wasn’t grey enough to prevent a successful conviction by a jury! In fact the exact opposite was the case . The law was written well enough to allow successful prosecution of an individual who was cheating the system. Surprise surprise wasn’t that why it was written in the first place?

From: Hh76
26-Jan-18
Lee, it's all about your intent. You intended to live there, the guide in question did not.

From: Lee
26-Jan-18
Splitting hairs there, jdee. I could have easily moved to Utah for the hunting and hated the heat and said screw this place I'm outta here - same analogy just a different species and there are a number of draw whitetail states that have really big whitetails that guys are willing to pay what I consider stupid money to shoot a big whitetail. Heck, I play the Iowa point game for deer as well as the AZ point game for deer and elk BUT it is not a big enough priority to me to uproot my family to up my odds at drawing a coveted tag. I would and likely will consider it when I retire but not now. Point was I was willing to move for better hunting (I bet A LOT of us are). It is my decision where I want to live and why I want to move, not the governments - last I heard I live in a free country. There shouldn't be any gray area in a law with this type of repercussion (felony). Loss of right to vote, loss of ability to possess firearms, etc. People move for many reasons - family, job, in-state college tuition, no state income tax, hobbies, scenery, climate, hunting, fishing, etc. etc. I'd be interested to know how many times this law has been used in UT to convict someone. Equating someone moving to obtain a tag to drunk driving where someone could be killed due to the poor decisions made by the drunk is a far cry from what this guy did.

From: jrb(CO)
26-Jan-18
I used to live in Utah. I currently live 25 miles from Utah. I have several friends who live in Utah. I have enough points to draw any sheep tag in Utah as a resident. I have often joked with my buddies that I am moving back for a year to sheep hunt when I retire.

I do not know many of the specifics of this guys case. But if I actually do decide to follow through AND I live there long enough prior to the application period to meet resident requirements AND remain living there throughout my hunting season AND I pay state income taxes the year that I live there.

Good luck to anyone who wants to come after me for intent!

From: Lee
26-Jan-18
I think it is the word INTENT that I have an issue with. I could have great intentions and then flat out change my mind - happens all the time. Just too much gray area for my liking. Does there need to be some type of law to keep this from happening? After reading this, absolutely! I bet the group of us (the folks that posted on this topic) could come up with a pretty tight law that would be black and white and not subject to any interpretation. Trial153, he did get convicted and I'm sure you have seen convictions get overturned or people skate when they were clearly guilty by any reasonable person (OJ for example). Old Johnny Cochran was a slick lawyer and Marcia Clark wasn't! Often it comes down to deep pockets and who has the better lawyer. How about a challenge - we quit bickering and banter around what we think would be a good law to keep this from happening in a draw state. I would be willing to bet we could come up with a pretty damn good one.

I'll try - a Hunter may retain all accumulated bonus points for any given species but must wait a period of one year from the time they become a LEGAL resident of said state for them to count towards that species draw.

With as few sheep tags as there are it would be pretty easy for Game and Fish to spend a few minutes checking out the successful applicants background. If this guy was this blatantly obvious it would have been simple to disqualify him and reissue his tag BEFORE the sheep got shot! No loss of a valuable resource and his tag is in the hands of someone not circumventing the law. Be tough to do for most species due to sheer numbers but the article said there were only 11 tags issued in 2014. A good warden could probably figure that out in a day or two using the internet.

From: Bullhound
26-Jan-18
seems to me there aren't any legal residents of Utah complaining about this law that is on the books for their state.................................maybe I missed them........

From: Brotsky
26-Jan-18
The only thing I've learned in this thread is that some people like to argue for the sake of arguing.

From: Ucsdryder
26-Jan-18
That’s because they live their bull. Not sure the logic there. That’s like asking New Mexico residents if they liked it the year that the federal lands were equal opportunity vs residents getting most tags.

From: GF
26-Jan-18
" My intent was for the hunting! I left because the winter SUCKED and I didn't want to face another! So should I have been cited for gaining resident status to hunt?"

Well.....

Did you remain a resident of the state through the end of your hunting for the season? Most states do require that, and this guy didn't even remain "in residence" until the season STARTED, if I'm not mistaken...

Did you claim resident status in more than one state for that year? No state that I know of will allow that; when I was in school in MN, non-resident, full-time students living within the state were permitted to buy resident deer licenses, but I never asked about dual-state residency issues because there was no way that I could have hunted both states in the same year.

Did you pay your fair share of income tax to that state in that year? If you RESIDE there, you are bound to pay your taxes. I know folks who get the hell outta CT every year after 5 months and 29 days of continuous presence here, and they boogie down to Fla where they are legal, full-time residents (and where there is no state income tax).

And did you buy an OTC tag, or did you accumulate enough points as a non-res to guarantee that you would draw a tag that most people go a lifetime without?

Because who the hell would relocate their entire life to another state for 6 months to save the cost of a non-res tag?

Bottom line... the law was written to address this specific situation because this specific behavior had been used to divert these tags from the intended recipients (full-time legal residents) to individuals who were clearly exploiting a loophole.

If you don't like it, move to Utah and lobby your local representative to get the law changed. But be aware that the Locals saw what was happening, didn't care for it, and THEY lobbied THEIR local representatives who passed the law to protect the interests of their constituents...

As bullhound said...

"seems to me there aren't any legal residents of Utah complaining about this law that is on the books for their state."

Of course not. They demanded it! If you don't like being around people who think that way, I'm sure they'd be happy to see you live and hunt elsewhere....

From: trophyhill
26-Jan-18
The guy knew the risk/reward from the onset. He got caught, now he's paying the price. I see no need to pile on.......

From: Trial153
26-Jan-18
Utah Code § 23-13-2(37)

13) (a) "Domicile" means the place: (i) where an individual has a fixed permanent home and principal establishment; (ii) to which the individual if absent, intends to return; and (iii) in which the individual, and the individual's family voluntarily reside, not for a special or temporary purpose, but with the intention of making a permanent home. (b) To create a new domicile an individual shall: (i) abandon the old domicile; and (ii) be able to prove that a new domicile has been established.

From: WapitiBob
26-Jan-18
The omission of "domicile" in the 2014 field regs may have lead him to believe he was OK...

"Resident means a person who has a fixed permanent home and principal establishment in Utah for six consecutive months immediately preceding the purchase of a license or permit, AND DOES NOT claim residency for hunting, fishing or trapping in any other state or country. "

"Resident means a person who has a domicile (fixed permanent home and principal establishment) in Utah for six consecutive months immediately preceding the purchase of a license or permit, AND DOES NOT claim residency for hunting, fishing or trapping in any other state or country. "

From: Jaquomo
26-Jan-18
I haven't read every single post on this thread because it is tiresome and pointless.

But...

Hillary Clinton committed multiple felonies and wasn't prosecuted because Comey, Lynch, and Obama decided she didn't "intend" to break the law when she destroyed evidence, moved classified material, destroyed gubmint property, etc..

Depends upon what the "intent" of "intent" is.

From: YZF-88
26-Jan-18
...it also depends on what the definition of "is" is.

From: Scoot
27-Jan-18
Brotsky, no they don't. You're dead wrong and I'll tell you why... ;)

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