The "airbow" will be archery in Virginia
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elkstabber 30-Jan-18
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From: elkstabber
30-Jan-18
Like it or not it seems inevitable that the Crosman "airbow" will be a legal weapon during Virginia's archery season this coming fall. Senate Bill 859 passed the committee last week with a 15-0 vote (all in favor). The Senate bill still has a ways to go but looks inevitable with this strong start.

Two years ago the "airbow" became a legal weapon during firearms season, which makes sense because the "airbow" is an air gun. But this year the "airbow" will be legal during archery season.

The patrons of the bill are hunters who feel that this is a good thing for hunters. They say it increases "opportunity" for hunters.

Is there any kind of proof that allowing additional weapons actually increases the number of hunters?

From: elkstabber
30-Jan-18

elkstabber's embedded Photo
elkstabber's embedded Photo
Here is an "airbow".

From: Single bevel
30-Jan-18
Bow season is dead. It was murdered several years ago with this ridiculous march of technology. Very few states have a bow only season now. 80% let-off compounds yesterday, X-bows today, air-bows tomorrow...I wonder what as yet uninvented weapon will be next.

30-Jan-18
Yes bowhunting, bowhunting seasons, and bowhunting culture is dying. This is nothing new and what the majority of hunters seem to prefer.

The airbow is no different than a crossbow, just line up the crosshairs and pull the trigger. If one is legal for all hunters, then the other may as well be legal too. Who cares?..... as some will say on this board.

From: LINK
30-Jan-18
The airbow shouldn’t change much. People that are using crossbows may switch to the airbow. I doubt many that are currently shooting vertical bows, when crossbows are legal, will switch to the air bow. Teach your kids, grandkids how to use a vertical bow and the reasoning behind it.

From: Wapitidung
30-Jan-18
I believe I've just about had enough.

From: LBshooter
30-Jan-18
I shot one of these and you can keep it. Was at cabelas and they let you test fire it and it's ridiculous. Not to mention that you have a compressed can of air right over your hand and God forbid it should malfunction, goodbye hand. Also you have to have a high pressure pump to fill the tank, don't see yo many using this, a crossbow would be better.

From: tobywon
30-Jan-18
There is technology for you. Now you don't even need a string to shoot an arrow. Pretty soon the compound bow will be called "trad"...lol. I tend to feel the same about modern in-line muzzleloaders. They are a far cry from a patched round ball with open sights, whether cap lock or flint lock.

From: Rut Nut
30-Jan-18
Never thought I would see the day when ANY form of "bow" did NOT use a STRING! : (

From: Woods Walker
30-Jan-18
My definition of a bow is a device that propels an arrow that kills via shock through blood loss caused by the razor sharp blades on the arrow tip. The propulsion of the arrow is from energy stored in drawn limbs.

By this definition a crossbow is a bow, but the airbow definitely is not. What effect it will have on archery remains to be seen.

From: 1boonr
30-Jan-18
The energy is stored in wheels now not limbs so most of the modern bows are not bows according to your definition

From: Rob Nye
30-Jan-18
Relax it’s just more gadgets and gizmos in a different package that is not vertical. Won’t be long and “bowhunting” will be so easy everyone can do it and lay the smack down on those Mackdaddies every single day of the 2 day archery seasons we’ll enjoy. Am pretty sure arrow grenades will be the next big thing.

From: SJJ
30-Jan-18
Holy ***K

From: Mint
30-Jan-18
It was only a matter of time once they let in scoped crossbows into archery seasons. All that did was increase the effective range of archery gear and success rates will go up. The same thing was happening with the compound though with long range harvesting of game at distances well over 50 yards. Get ready for hunt prices to keep going up and coveted tags to get even more scarce.

From: LBshooter
30-Jan-18
Now, the guy who designs a shotgun/rifle she'll that propels an arrow will make a fortune. Just think, a 30/06 that shoots an arrow. We'll be shooting critters out to 200 yards.

From: 12yards
30-Jan-18
Everyone was wondering how we would get an arrow to go 500 fps. Well, here's your technology.

From: elkstabber
30-Jan-18

elkstabber's Link
LBshooter: the link above shows how you can shoot an arrow by using a 22.

By the way: the new code defines the "airbow" as a "pneumatic archery device". That was how Virginia is handling the definition.

From: PECO
30-Jan-18
"The energy is stored in wheels now not limbs so most of the modern bows are not bows according to your definition" What? The "wheels" allow more energy to be stored in the limbs, and provide let off. Energy is still stored in the limbs.

From: Woods Walker
30-Jan-18
I thought that was obvious!

From: Ollie
30-Jan-18
"Who cares?" I CARE!!! We have brought this upon ourselves with our constant appeasement of those who insist on making it easier and easier to shoot a bow and arrow accurately. Should we permit people to "fish" with dynamite if it results in selling more "fishing" licenses?

From: elk yinzer
30-Jan-18
Kind of hypocritical to talk about how "emotional" and non-science based anti hunters are then conjure up emotional blabber that technology is somehow killing archery and bowhunting as we know it.

Just pointing out pure hypocrisy as I see it. I'm not in favor of this thing being in archery seasons. Looks like a cool toy to play with at the range and use in gun seasons, but a bow it is not.

From: JTV
30-Jan-18
this is a very sad state that allows crap like this in to beloved archery seasons... I admit, I absolutely dislike crossbows in archery seasons, but f'n thing goes beyond the pale... Archery to me is a hand drawn, hand held Bow (traditional or compound)... all this shows is that game departments are more worried about cash inflow than tradition, ethics, and hunting it's self.... in this state, our fish and wildlife areas are now over run by crossgunners in what was once a nice quiet early archery season, these are nothing more but gun hunters, Elmer Fudd types, deer populations are down in many areas as it is, these dweebs, are adding to the lower numbers and the over crowding of "hunters" on these areas....I would hate to see what these places would be like if this crap would be allowed .....smh ..

From: Pat Lefemine
30-Jan-18
I shot this hideous thing too. It sounds like a .22 when it goes off. Does not resemble a bow or arrow in any way. Shoots a projectile, not an arrow. Its accurate, that's about it. I can't believe anyone would think this is appropriate for archery season.

30-Jan-18
they might as well go full rifle season year long.

From: jmiller
30-Jan-18
As we make it easier and easier to harvest with a bow or bow like thing, our opportunities will decline. Tags will be harder to come by. Bowhunting is supposed to be hard, and technology continues to make it easier.

30-Jan-18
Jmiller and kentuckbowhnter, with a statements like that you will be in a minority on this forum. IMO, you are both exactly correct.

From: elvspec
30-Jan-18
Total B.S.. Just goes to show what lobbying dollars will buy for a greedy company.

From: goyt
30-Jan-18
The unfortunate thing is that the policy/decision makers are now focused on increasing declining hunter numbers and it is politically beneficial to supports anything that seems to provide "more opportunities". IMO the biggest problem with recruiting more/new hunters is availability of either access or tags. In Ohio where I hunt the biggest problem is access to land and over crowding. I could introduce people to hunting but do not because I can not help them find hunting spots in Ohio or help them draw NR tags. Unless they are a very close personnel friend or blood I do not step up because I do not have an answer when they ask where they should hunt. I will help anyone learn archery and will go shooting with them and will help with both archery and hunting equipment selection and set-up. They can use my bow press. But I do not recruit new hunters unless they are family/close friends. The states have a goal to increase hunter numbers but they really have nothing to offer. In fact it is easy to say that they are robbing Peter to pay Paul. Unfortunately we are the ones that are on the short end of most of this. The states have to keep populations low enough to meet social demands and still keep revenues high and increase hunter recruitment. Not a good position to be in. This make it easy for someone promote "solutions" like the air bow. They feel like they have to do something.

From: Teeton
30-Jan-18
Well There Goes The Xbow Sales!!!! :)

From: Glunt@work
30-Jan-18
I'm surprised that people are surprised.

From: jjs
30-Jan-18
Who is to blame, every bowhunter that believe the Big Tent that everything is good as long as there is more bowhunters. No method restrictions and we have this along with all other technology that has increase the kill, bowhunting was never design for game management control and that is where it has gone, so suck it up the generic season is coming next or a more restrictive bow season, sad that it is here.

From: JTV
30-Jan-18
surprised ? .... no not really, just disgusted ....

From: LBshooter
30-Jan-18
Well the next thing that's going to happen with all these rifle shooting bows is we'll have to wear orange during bow season lol.

From: Woods Walker
30-Jan-18
You mean instead of blob camo? OH NO! Everyone knows you can't kill deer if you're wearing orange! ;-)

From: elk yinzer
30-Jan-18
Great points by Goyt. It's all about revenue projections at the government level. And don't even get me started about hunting as an "industry".

From: md5252
30-Jan-18
It’s not “Archery” season anymore but “Arrow” season it seems.....

Human nature. We are our own worst enemies

From: Woods Walker
30-Jan-18
"Arrow" season........good definition! Apparently that's what it's coming down to. I guess we'd better get them to further clarify that to an, "Arrow With Sharp Blades" season before they start putting exploding tips on them.

30-Jan-18
Jim Shockey really pushed this weapon I see on TV....might be wrong, but I believe its already illegal for use in Wisconsin, put in the books, but I am not sure of that,,,,

From: 12yards
30-Jan-18
Honestly, does it do anything different than a crossbow does? Shoulder fired, scoped thing that fires an arrow.

Not a fan of either.

From: Woods Walker
30-Jan-18
The basic difference is that the crossbow is still mechanically a BOW, in that it uses energy stored in drawn limbs to propel the arrow. The airgun uses an entirely different method of energy storage/transfer, not a whole lot different than a gunpowder explosion.

From: GotBowAz
30-Jan-18
Eventually all OTC archery tags will be a draw. Rifle hunters will go to the crossbows or arrow guns to grab more opportunity in the field, which will pack OTC areas. It will not help increase/decrease hunter numbers any more than what increases or decreases every year. It will overcrowd our OTC archery areas which will then have to be regulated. This is my only fear. No crossbows or arrow guns in any archery season...period.

30-Jan-18
I don't see it being effective on skiddish animals at 30-40 yards...it's too damn loud and still subsonic.

Doesn't seem like the sort of thing that belongs in archery season.

Additionally, there's a possibility that this thing won't even catch on. How many people who don't already use a crossbow are going to pick this thing up? And honestly, how many states are going to go for this? I can see it being legal in the south, but many states in the west still don't even allow crossbows in archery season without a doctor's note.

From: Bill Obeid
30-Jan-18
And I guess there will be those out there that will want Pope and Young to include this contraption also?

In the name of archery? So archery can continue to “recruit”?

What a cruel end to such a noble pastime.

If you care about archery.... speak now. Or is there nothing we can do?

From: Rob Nye
30-Jan-18
Some TV hunters would promote land mines for archery season if someone would pay them to do it. Mr. Shockey once told me I must be a masochist because I only hunt with longbows. He had no clue what I was talking about when I told him how I kill critters is more important to me than killing critters. Come to think of it most people look confused by that statement.

From: JTV
30-Jan-18
most of the same ones who are pro crossbow will love this damn thing, the GUN hunters will be ecstatic, another non-archery reason to invade the archery seasons. .... very sad....

30-Jan-18
I agree JTV,...... where were all you guys on the other thread where there was a " who cares, so what " attitude?

From: md5252
30-Jan-18
Where’s Cam and Don Jr when you need them??

From: JTV
30-Jan-18
I guess youve missed my anti-crossbow stance thru all the years Ive been here... Ive never wavered about my feelings on the darn things .... I never will either ..

From: Bill Obeid
30-Jan-18
There are tens of thousands of archery interested hunters reading this thread. We should all be signing something and sending it to the Virginia senate in protest.

30-Jan-18
I probably did JTV, sorry. I have been anti-crossbow too but feel pretty defeated just as I did in the late 1960's. Therefore, I have simply conceded the fact that real bowhunting is on a serious decline in the US, along with it's culture and seasons. I will have to live with it and will still enjoy my Osage selfbow even if we have one season, use whatever weapon you choose. Times change, I get that. Hasn't gotten to Montana yet but crossbows have taken over several state archery seasons where I also hunt.

30-Jan-18
Wow ...no words

From: Silverback
30-Jan-18
" Arrow season " fairly accurately sums it up. But lets take a close look at where it started. In my opinion it started when Mr, Allen invented the compound bow. It has progressed to the point we now have this high tech arrow device. Each arrow device from the compound bow to the air bow have had one goal in mind. To make shooting an arrow accurately " EASY', and they have progressively accomplished that.

From: Woods Walker
30-Jan-18
X2 Silverback.

"Watch what you wish for.....you may get it...."

From: marktm250
30-Jan-18
Geez ... they don't really consider these early seasons "primitive" any more. Glad I will be getting out of VA in a year. There is good hunting to be had, but in my neck of the woods, the 3 buck/3 doe limit, 7 weeks of rifle season and dog running have taken its toll.

Stopped by my bow shop last week and got to talking about muzzleloaders and he showed me his smokeless powder set up, which I did not even realize was legal in the early season VA, but it is! The VA early season allows scopes, etc. whereas a state such as CO for early season elk prohibits scopes and also does not even allow blackpowder pellets!

Like others have stated prior , in VA at least, I could envision one long any weapon season coming up here shortly. Of course, they will raise the standard hunting license fee to make up for that fact that it costs extra to buy the early season archery and muzzleloader tags.

From: LBshooter
30-Jan-18
even if a few guys buy this and go hint with it so what. How is this going to affect your hunting? It's expensive and special equipment needed and not that powerful. I'm sure you anti everything other than your compgun will be just fine. Relax and I bet you will not even see one of these in the field.

From: Shawn
30-Jan-18
The funny thing is Crossman was way late to the party but promoted it and it caught on. Look up FX air guns and you will see they have had one for at least 10 if not 15 years. Way better design then crossmans as well. It is by no definition a bow of any sort. It is a gun that happens to shoot a bolt. Shawn

From: marktm250
30-Jan-18
LB, you are right in that it is special equipment ... most guys who are not into archery now will probably just wait a month until "dogs&guns" season opens.

What is more concerning is what some of these small incremental changes will lead to in 10 years? As such a special weapon, I wondered who really lobbied for it? Heck this airbow seemed to sail right through the process, but then VA only opened up Sunday hunting a few years ago after decades of trying? Go figure.

From: RutnStrut
30-Jan-18
"even if a few guys buy this and go hint with it so what. How is this going to affect your hunting? It's expensive and special equipment needed and not that powerful. I'm sure you anti everything other than your compgun will be just fine. Relax and I bet you will not even see one of these in the field."

It's exactly that kind of thinking that is leading to the demise of most good things in this country.

From: elkstabber
30-Jan-18
marktm250: Virginia is definitely odd with so much fighting between hunters. I've been speaking with Delegate James Edmunds (co-patron of this bill) and he seems convinced that this is good for Virginia's hunters. But, he also stood opposed to Sunday hunting for 20 years. Virginia is a weird state for sure. Desperate might be a better word because we're losing hunters faster than any other state. The loss of hunters is not related to a loss of accessible land because both of our neighboring states are steadily gaining licensed hunters.

From: Teeton
30-Jan-18

Teeton's Link
Here's a link to a thread I started on the Pa forum back in March on the Air bow.

It titled " Air Bow coming to Pa ??????"

Ed

From: 12yards
30-Jan-18
I understand those obvious differences. But when I think of actually using it up in a tree in the deer woods, it's almost identical. Both are quite different than a vertical bow of any kind.

From: Bill Obeid
30-Jan-18
LB,

This is how it "could" affect hunting. Theoretically.

Let's say a state like Iowa gets this "crossbow/airbow" infection in their archery deer season. Nonresident Archery hunters are already waiting 4 years between hunts in top archery zones...... now add all the theoretical new influx of cross/airgun hunters applying for archery tags and a nonresident archer could be deer hunting his favorite state once every 8 years.

And I have to defend your "compgun" remark. When I tried my first compound bow back in the 80s it was no easy Bow to master. And actually, when the owner of my bow shop asked me how it was going I told him that I went back to my recurve. It wasn't until a year or two later that he finally talked me into using a release aid and trying again. Then when I added a sight groups became respectable. If there is a demon in modern archery it may not be the compound bow but the mechanical release.

But, all in all I'm pretty relaxed......... I can honestly say that I've never seen a crossbow in the field

From: Mr.C
30-Jan-18
not legal in Canada for big game, or at least not in Sasatchewan

30-Jan-18
Clearly, and from published data, over 50% of all hunters in the Wisconsin and Michigan archery seasons are now carrying crossbows. Maybe you do not see crossbows in Pennsylvania, but you sure do in the Midwest.

From: Woods Walker
30-Jan-18
One of my old deer hunting buddies is 78 now and has been battling cancer and other issues for the past 4 years. He can no longer draw a bow and if he does get out during bow season it's with a crossbow. I was at his house this fall and he showed me the crossbow he bought. It's like carrying an anvil through the woods!! I think compguns are too damn heavy and is one of the reasons why I shoot sticks. But this crossbow.....OMG! I don't why anyone would CHOOSE that weapon over a vertical bow...even one as heavy as a compgun!

From: Bowriter
30-Jan-18
Actually, I think probably, the best thing is sell all our archery equipment, buy golf clubs and quit worry about the sky falling. Give it some real thought. Do you really think an airbow or a bazooka is going to ruin bowhunting for you? If you do, it is probably too late and you are probably hunting for the wrong reason anyway.

From: marktm250
30-Jan-18
elkstabber: I hear ya ... not really fighting it now as much as trying to understand it. By being "good for hunters", I take it to mean that we will add some hunters (hopefully young ones) to the ranks, which is a good thing. But how many really? 100? 1000? Just surprised that it got that much support by the higher ups in so little time given that the impact in revenue will be relatively minor (not sure what the #s are for archery tags in VA).

I am more worried about the 7 week rifle season and the 3 buck limit ... like to have them both cut back a little ... this would have big impacts whereas the airbow will not. I am not even against running dogs because I can appreciate the long-standing tradition. Its different for sure, especially when I see them hunting right on the roads around here!

After my poor season here, I am debating whether I will get a VA license this year, but I am by no means done hunting, just will be doing it in other states.

30-Jan-18
Bowriter? You must not hunt public land? You have a point that we should just try to enjoy what we do but this type of this has an effect ...especially on the younger generations

From: drycreek
30-Jan-18
I hate to be "that guy" but I just don't see this affecting bowhunting very much at all. I know some states have these convoluted seasons where you have to stop bowhunting during shotgun or rifle or muzzleloader season, but my state allows bowhunting during rifle season. Funny, I haven't heard a single complaint from rifle hunters concerning bows being used in firearms season. Crossbows have been legal here for a few years and I can't see how they've hurt hunting at all. Next year, airguns are probably gonna be legal, and I don't expect that's gonna have any effecr either. We have a legal limit for deer taken, what difference does it make how you do it ? I'm serious, what makes any of you think that this is going to "ruin" archery as we know it ?

From: Owl
30-Jan-18
Good grief, If that monstrosity catches on there's more wrong with hunting than weapon encroachment.

From: marktm250
30-Jan-18
With the dwindling ranks (~30% of us are aged 55-70 and are not being replaced by the younger generations) we need to be more accommodating I guess. Some of us older hunters (I am 55) are used to the restrictions that were in place when we first started hunting. Heck, in a lot of states, it took a lot of effort to get an early bow season in place because the gun hunting majority did not want archers to have first crack at "their" deer.

IMO, keeping up public relations, public land access, game management and youth recruitment, in the face of dwindling license revenue, are all much bigger fish to fry.

30-Jan-18
It doesn't belong in bow season.

With that said, neither do compounds, carbon limbed trad bows, crossbows, or anything else that makes it easier, more reliable, etc..... Some of you guys are some pretty miserable people. Assume the worse until given another opportunity to do the same. You take your flat shooting compounds, with state of the art strings, shoot $150/ dozen arrows, with technologically improved broad heads, out of $500 worth of treestands and climbing sticks, on a high dollar lease or piece of private ground that you likely let few hunt. Yet, you want to tell others how to do it on their own time. Every time something comes out its the end of hunting as we know it.

Well, hunting has been changing and evolving since God put us here. And, most of us now do it for some other reason besides survival. You aren't the only ones that enjoy the aspects of hunting. By acting and being a bunch of Miss Mary's about every body or, every way of doing it besides the way you do it, you turn more off then care to listen to your points. How many times are you going to listen to the same broken record from other people before you glaze over?

As stated above, they do not belong in bow season. But, give your fellow hunter the benefit that they deserve by not assuming the worse about them. These things will not increase demand for draw units. Wolves are doing that. They won't up demand in otc units either. Wolves are doing that too. And, they won't shorten seasons. Wolves will also do that. Not a bow choice. Or, an air gun.

From: Tonybear61
30-Jan-18
My definition of a bow is a device that propels an arrow that kills via shock through blood loss caused by the razor sharp blades on the arrow tip. The propulsion of the arrow is from energy stored in drawn limbs. (yep that's true whether is a self-bow, flatbow, recurve, or high let off limb bow - its still coming from the limbs in one way or another)

By this definition a crossbow is a bow, but the airbow definitely is not.

What is wrong with some of the bowhunters?? There is no friggin way this thing is a bow of any kind. It has a stock like a gun, trigger like a gun, projectile is shot from a barrel (the fact the arrow rests over the barrel instead of inside it is irrelevant).

So hunting numbers are dropping, archery included-SO WHAT?? We throw away all of the things that make us bowhunters, e.g. the challenge, the display of skill, actually being able to see the arrow fly to its target, traditional fraternal spirit.. Bows are hand draw, hand released by the persons own power are a heck of a lot different than a cross bow, airbow, airheadprojectile device due to the fact they introduce error, thus the longer seasons folks created decades ago. No matter how its distorted on this forum or elsewhere.

Compare your issue with declining bowhunters to declining fisher man and think the technology for increasing the harvest and satisfaction in harvesting the fish will help. Let's see we have cameras, sonars, mapping devices. lighted lures, fake bait, etc. but the fish still have to bite. But hey we are loosing numbers so let's allow: 1) Netting, 2) spearing, 3) live bait on artificial only streams, 4)traps, 5) harvest during critical spawning cycles, 6) no limits, 7)dynamite, to increase the fisherman participation, recruitment and retention.

Its all BS: crossbow, airgun, newer in-line repeater muzzle loader, multi-projectile and future plasma gun developers know it. Don't buy into their self promoting crap, period..

From: ohiohunter
30-Jan-18
Its a step in the wrong direction IMO. I wonder how much $$ it took for those bureaucrats to pass this? I've never heard a spear gun called a spear bow, and its 100x more a bow than this. I can see the negative potential this may have. Bottom line is someone got paid to get this ball rolling, otherwise this would've been an overpriced toy that would've died faster than its inception.

How does this sit w/ the legal system and ex felons?

From: Bowriter
30-Jan-18
WVMountaineer hit it dead on. I have heard these exact same comments for over 40-years. Until they make whatever you are using illegal, whatever anyone else is using should not affect you in the least. If you are worried about public land becoming crowded, how do you account for the drop in hunter numbers? If you are concerned about the drop in hunter numbers, why are you worried about hunting public land?

Until a few years ago, I probably did 50% of my hunting here at home on public land. I stopped because I got more land close to my house than I could hunt. But what difference does it make to me if Joe Hunter i shooting an air bow, (BTW- I have never seen one,)? It has nothing to do with what I choose to shoot. Do you really think the public land is going to be overun with people shooting airbows? Explain why they would.

From: ohiohunter
30-Jan-18
Are you in favor of allowing a similar gunbow using 308win blanks to propel an arrow 700fps with an effective range of 250yds? If not, can you explain the difference between the 2 and why?

From: Tonybear61
30-Jan-18
Physics lesson for today-The kinetic energy (KE) of an object is the energy of the object due to its speed and mass. In order for the energy of an object to change, work must be done on the object. A system not in motion will remain not in motion until an external force acts upon it. For example your bow siting on a stand with an arrow in it.

1- In the case of an arrow and archery, work is done by the archer’s muscles or a mechanical means( archer muscle with lever, screw; or motor for crossbows) by pulling back the string and flexing the limbs (spring). The energy is stored in the spring in the form of potential energy; when the string is released the energy stored into the spring is released, some of which is absorbed by the arrow. The rest is lost by the vibration of the string, and continued movement of spring (limb). Now the spring doesn't have to move a lot, as obvious by looking at the difference between a long bow (use Japanese bow as an extreme example) and a short stiff limbed 80-90% let off cam. Something (e.g. spring) needs to release stored energy in order for the energy of the system (arrow, string and bow combination) to change.

The energy not absorbed by the arrow becomes friction in the bow parts, noise, vibration and other inefficiencies experienced by the bow and archers body which is part of the complete system . Energy that is absorbed by the arrow is converted into multiple forms, the majority resulting in the forward velocity(but also wobble). The kinetic energy of the arrow that archers care about and calculate is the energy due to its forward motion. As the arrow travels downrange, the total energy diminishes mostly due to air friction.

The standard formula for kinetic energy is: KE= 1/2 mv^2 where m is the mass of the moving object and v is the velocity.

^ means superscript or for believers that the airbow is a bow, a dunce hat. You fail, but more on that later.

For an arrow, the kinetic energy is calculated by taking the weight(in grains), multiplying it by the square of the speed in feet per second, and dividing by the constant 450800.

2- Air bow, unless you count the trigger return mechanism, no spring. No archer exerting force on spring either (except a trigger not involved in energy transfer). Transfer of energy is the compressed air released from tank to barrel (yes its a barrel) to the projectile, arrow, bullet, wad or spit ball whatever in contact with compressed air. As the projectile arrow travels downrange, the total energy diminishes mostly due to air friction. This last sentence is the only similarity between the two and both are lethal. No argument there.

If we look at other "guns' the transfer of energy is the confined explosion/detonation (deflagration, change in pressures of gases due to expansion or combustion processes) inside a cartridge(or a barrel), transferred to the projectile or what's stuck in front of it. Even a blank cartridge with something in front of it can be an effective killing device , especially at close range. That's what Brandon Lee killed in 1993 and another actor John Eric Hexum found out tens years before. That's a discussion for another day.

I challenge anyone in this community to demonstrate a hand held , hand drawn, hand released bow, even with a large let off is in any other way similar to the airbow (not the projectile, the bow) which has rapid changes in air pressure as the launch energy.

Let's hear it...

From: Bill Obeid
30-Jan-18
Not only will hard science get challenged here..... it will get twisted and rearranged till it fills someone's needs. Your physics is sound but trying to defend archery here on bowsite is a huge waste of energy.

From: JTV
30-Jan-18
once again to the daft on here, this "airbow" dohicky has NOTHING in common with a Hand draw, Hand held vertical bow... NOTHING ..except what the projectile has on the front... that does NOT make this thing archery equipment ... what is so damn hard to understand about keeping ARCHERY seasons ARCHERY ... ie: vertical hand drawn hand held bows....

From: jfish
30-Jan-18
After 45+ seasons here in Va I am realizing my fears that originated some 30 yrs ago are becoming a reality. Never forget the season they first allowed in lines, then doubled the season, then scoped MLs. Next came Xbows, everyone said its a slippery slope and yes folks we are riding it. Some will say “ what’s the big deal?” If it’s legal who cares?

Who cares? Those who don’t have endless acres to hunt, those who enjoyed the solitude and bow hunting. Those who aren’t interested in doing things the easy way and would prefer those who want the easy kill to do it during some other season. Sure I shoot a compound but few would argue hitting the X is easy with a Xbow and even easier with an Airbow. I guess what really makes it hard for some to swallow is every time VDGIF wants to add something, extend a season or in their words increase hunters it comes at the expense of bow season. If you want Airbows sure but make it only during general firearms. If there are fewer hunters in Va like some suggest making it easier will not increase the numbers. Adding another weapon will not make someone who doesn’t hunt all of a sudden wake up and say “ I want to hunt.” It only makes those who already hunt have to buy another tag to use another weapon it does nothing to increase the hunting population.

From: Shawn
30-Jan-18
The problem is it will take the guys who only gun hunt become airbow users and basically gun hunt during archery seasons. Guys who don't think it will effect their bow hunting are nuts. It may not now but in 10-15 years it will have had a huge effect. Shawn

From: drycreek
30-Jan-18
JTV, for the record, and not being a smartass, the crossbow and even the airbow is archery whenever the state game and fish says it is. It's that simple ! I don't know anyone who would call an airbow "archery" except the promoters and the state, but if they allow it, it's archery, at least in the regs. I still don't see how it affects those that shoot a regular bow, trad or compound. I'm sure lots of guys shoot crossbows and many more kids do. Some of those kids will transition to vertical bows, but many more will quit hunting altogether when they reach their teens. Those are the ones that will hurt hunting the most. A hunter lost is a hunter never replaced. Less hunters, less representation......

From: Woods Walker
30-Jan-18
I really don't know if the airgun arrow launcher will change bowhunting or not. Time will tell, but if you go by what's happened with crossbows then probably not all that much. If it does, I doubt it will have anywhere near the affect that the compound has.

My point is that the airgun arrow launcher, as opposed to a crossbow, is NOT a bow in any way/shape/form, other than the fact that it propels an arrow. For that reason alone it should not be in archery season.

From: Bou'bound
30-Jan-18
Well this certainly blows

From: Jack Harris
30-Jan-18
I swear I posted a very sarcastic post when this first came out - but in my heart of hearts, I never thought a state would be dumb enough to allow it into general archery category. So archery no longer requires limbs... Just a shaft, with a BH, fits the definition. Wow - I don't know what else to say.

From: Tonybear61
30-Jan-18
Adding another weapon will not make someone who doesn’t hunt all of a sudden wake up and say “ I want to hunt.” It only makes those who already hunt have to buy another tag to use another weapon it does nothing to increase the hunting population.

That is a key point just cause you call a new weapon archery doesn't increase the number of "archers" all it does is shift them form one weapon to another or they use multiple weapons. I do just that but would never call my rifle a bow, nor my shotgun a bow or anything else that operates like a gun including muzzle loader stuffed with an arrow shaft a bow. Would I by three lisc. for taking game animals in a state? Already did that when my state offered it, extra money for the state to take but one animal but hunted each respective season with its respective weapon, RESPECTING the other groups. Guns don't belong in archery season period, otherwise call it what it is a open season for any weapon, not everyone wants that.

From: Rut Nut
30-Jan-18
You just can’t make this stuff up!!!!!!! COMMON SENSE just died in the state of Va!!!! : (

30-Jan-18
that's got to be the worst managed state in the union, when it comes to deer hunting, but it is so close to Washingon DC it does not surprise me,,,,,, what a bunch of nobs

From: 12yards
31-Jan-18
drycreek, I often see the argument that bag limits are this, so why does it matter what weapon is used to get there? Bag limits are not set with the idea that everyone could limit out and the herd would be ok. If everyone in MN filled all their tags, deer would disappear, and I'm not kidding. They are set based on prior success rates. So if success rates do increase substantially due to the legalization of a more efficient weapon, limits could be reduced, and should be, if the population declines.

31-Jan-18
What twelve yards said ...some people need to go back to statistics class

From: 3arrows
31-Jan-18
Just like the wolf ,something too replace the lost hunters in the next 10 years.

31-Jan-18
12yards understands how things work.

From: lawdy
31-Jan-18
Anything that makes killing easy will in time be accepted. Most humans love easy and free. You think guys went to compounds in the 70's for the challenge? Be honest.

From: Woods Walker
31-Jan-18
"You think guys went to compounds in the 70's for the challenge? Be honest."

You got it lawdy!

From: LBshooter
31-Jan-18
X10 lawdy lol, Exactly spot on. The one or two guys you may see carrying on of these airbows ain't going to effect your hunting one bit.

From: drycreek
31-Jan-18
Statistics has zero to do with it. It's a group of hunters thinking that the way they do things is somehow "better" than the way other hunters do things. It's the Chevy vs Ford vs Dodge argument.

You cannot control what your state game org does, either for bag limits or means and methods. If you think you can, get to it ! Meanwhile, I will continue to hunt as I always have and leave the next guy to do the same.

31-Jan-18
dry creek, you may not be able to in your state, but at least in Wis, the public gets a vote, and you can be active in trying

From: Woods Walker
31-Jan-18
drycreek: Do you disagree with lawdy's statement? Not that one way is better than the other, but that it shooting a compound is easier to master than a stickbow.?

31-Jan-18
All WI bowhunters should attend the spring hearing in April to vote on this issue. As well, all WI firearms deer hunters should also vote on this issue. This season the crossbower's success percentage on bucks far exceeded that of bowhunters and firearms hunters. This is a documented fact from the WI DNR. The long crossbow season and the advances in crossbow technology have allowed an unintended advantage to those using a crossbow. The playing field needs to be leveled and this means adjusting the season so all hunters realize approximately the same level of success.

This was copied from the Leatherwall Forum, not posted by me. Scoped crossbows and other technology are having an impact.

From: Silverback
31-Jan-18
If you want to ban a weapon that made things easier to get a deer AND had the most effect on hunting you have to skip right over the airbow and crossbow and go straight to the compound bow. That is my opinion but I also believe it to be a fact.

From: Shawn
31-Jan-18
Ask guys how deer behavior suddenly changes when guns start going off, well this thing is loud and very similar in sound to a gun going off. Deer will start behaving differently during archery season if these things become common, sorry but true. I am sure someone will make a compensator to quiet them and that has to be in the works already. I shoot competition airguns and compete in field matches and today most airguns can be silenced to a whisper. They will silence these airguns as well, cause face it they are not an airbow they are an airgun and have been around a long time, Crossman just marketed them and got them into some big name hunting guys hands and saw there was a buck to be made. Shawn

From: drycreek
31-Jan-18
Woods Walker, I do agree that shooting a compound is much easier than shooting a stick bow. If it wasn’t that’s what I’d be shooting. But you know some guys, like me, have worked dark to dark 6/7 days a week for 50 years and just never had the time to devote to the stick bow. I can lay off my compound for months and be back in the game in two weeks. That changes nothing as I see it. We’ve lost over 2 million hunters in the last five years. For those that like stats, mull that over. I don’t think the airbow , the crossbow, or the compound are the problem y’all make it out to be. Yes, it offends your sensibilities, as it does mine, to have it included in archery season, because it definitely is not a bow, but it’s not going to ruin archery any more than compounds did.

From: Will
31-Jan-18
I'd be all for that weapon in gun season. It's a gun with a modestly unique projectile using air as propellant. Makes total sense. Heck, if you are in a "lesser weapon" state like I am, where you can use archery gear all year, or a ML and Archery during shot gun etc... i'd be fine with it being used during firearms and ML seasons.

But to suggest it's a bow is a level of emotional and intellectual gymnastics I cant really relate to. The only similarity is an arrow... But using that as the definition of an archery weapon is like saying a sling shot is the same thing as a shot gun because they can both shoot metal balls.

Good luck to crossman - hope your business model is great and much success to you with your new weapon. But lets keep it where it belongs - gun seasons.

31-Jan-18
Actually I have conversations with anti hunters often. They always and every time say something to the time of “well at least you use a bow”

...it’s because I’ve given the animal a chance so it’s not so much of a slaughter and more of a natural predator/prey relationship

From: 12yards
31-Jan-18
MN Resident Archery License Sales:

1995 - 70,056 2016 - 92,076

Doesn't appear to be dropping off much.

31-Jan-18
Oklahoma has increased from 80K to 120k bowhunters since we legalized crossbows. Compounds obviously have a come more popular as well. 2007 to 2017 doubled the “archery” harvest

31-Jan-18
Geeze,...... a year ago many on this forum were saying crossbows will have no effect as the trend was merely compounders electing to kill the same deer another way. Did this sentiment suddenly change? What do you think happens when crossbows are used for animals in a limited draw, such as black bear, elk, mule deer and the like? I see massive point creep potential!

From: Woods Walker
31-Jan-18
dry: I also don't think it will have that big of an effect, certainly not as big a one that compounds have had. I am also not against having crossbows in archery season because in my definition they are a bow based on the physics. I hope I never have to use one because they are so darn big and bulky, but if it's the only way I can bowhunt I will.

I do get a kick out of compound shooters who say crossbows shouldn't be in archery season because they don't LOOK like a bow........LOL! Modern compounds don't look anything like a stickbow either and they seem to have no problem with that.....gee....wonder why?

From: Bill Obeid
31-Jan-18
Damn right that there will be point creep.

Archers better get their heads out of the sand. Archery seasons will get flooded with crossbows and airguns and archery season limited entries will also be flooded with hunters.

The “ I’ll just keep hunting with my bow and let everybody else hunt with whatever they want “ mentality will quickly erode the archery season.

Nobody is worried about Airbows right now. The Airbow industry will get them crowbarred into archery season THEN THE MARKETING CAMPAIGN WILL START. Before you know it..... archery season will be dominated by non archery weaponry.

31-Jan-18
Bingo!

From: Bowriter
31-Jan-18
It is a plot. It all started when hunters started using arrows that matched. But let me just pose this. First, how much does an airbow cost? How does that compare with a crossbow or compound? Why would someone rather shoot an airbow than a crossbow? How many on here have ever seen one, not pictures, the real item, outside of an ATA show? Are they for sale in any big box catalog? How many have contacted their state agency and asked if they ever heard of an airbow?

Let me explain. I did do a little research. The cheapest airbow I could find was between $800-900. You can buy a perfectly good crossbow for under $500. As far as I can tell, the airbow is more complicated and no more accurate than a crossbow, (or a compound.), and is a lot more of a pin in the butt to service. So, why buy one? Why is it going to be the end of bowhunting? Why would a gun hunter buy one and not have already bought a crossbow if he so desired. What is the advantage? Or is this the same as in-line muzzleloaders ruining muzzleloading season? Is this the same as taking 1,000-yard shots ruining rifle hunting? I asked a commissioner on our wildlife commission if he had been approached by a lobbyist to legalize airbows. His answer, "Air-what?" He never heard of one. I can see one great use. You could shoot one out a car or truck window.

Just kinda curious.

From: drycreek
31-Jan-18
So Bill, your biggest concern is that someone might leverage you out of a tag, and not the fact that an airbow is not archery. Do I have that right ? Well God forbid that you have to stay home while someone steals “your” trophy !

31-Jan-18
What ever happened to putting the resource first? Archery seasons in several states are under attach by X bows and now air bows. In WV, when X bows became legal, part of the sales pitch was more new hunters which would equal more license sales, which would bring in badly needed money........three years later, license sales have dropped.

From: Hunter II
31-Jan-18
If your state has 100,000 hunters and they have a 20% kill rate with modern archery tackle and this rate is inline with population targets, what happens when you triple the effecive range of these hunters?

Eventually hunter effectiveness is going to to lead to a reduction in opportunity.

From: Bill Obeid
31-Jan-18
Dry creek, no! My biggest concern is the demise of bows and arrows! I love archery

From: Bill Obeid
31-Jan-18

31-Jan-18
Bows and arrows are in a steep decline. End of the world, no. End of real bowhunting, close.

From: Bill Obeid
31-Jan-18
Dryceeek, you have me all wrong. I’m a good hunter and I kill my share of game and am not the least bit concerned with other hunters. I encourage hunting by all legal means..... I’m just very concerned for the erosion of archery and archery season

From: 12yards
31-Jan-18
It's not how they look Woods Walker, it's how they function that I don't like.

From: Bowriter
31-Jan-18
"If your state has 100,000 hunters and they have a 20% kill rate with modern archery tackle and this rate is inline with population targets, what happens when you triple the effecive range of these hunters? Eventually hunter effectiveness is going to to lead to a reduction in opportunity."

Is that what happened with compounds? It hasn't happened with crossbows. It hasn't happened with in-line muzzleloaders. In what state has the total deer kill shown a steady increase since crossbows have been legalized in archery season? IN what state have bag limits and hunting days decreased? I have a rifle capable of making a killing shot at 1,000 yards. Many hunters do. Should they be illegal?

31-Jan-18
Think beyond deer fellas. The whitetail deer mentality does not take into account species already on a limited draw or quota, which are most. Point creep is real.

31-Jan-18
Bowriter you should pay attention to the thread on Spring Hearings on the Wis forum, you might learn some good information........ I shake my head at your post, you just do not get it,,,,,, why even have a primitive season anymore,,,,,, Wis has done a 3 year study, you should look it up,,,,,,,,,,,

However it will be up to a public forum and vote, on any season changes, so the chips will fall where they may,,,,,

The airbow, is illegal in Wisconsin, they saw that coming, way ahead of time,,,,,

From: Buskill
31-Jan-18
All this worry and I bet there will be about 100-150 guys using it . You’ll never notice the difference .

31-Jan-18
The only thing you can legally hunt in Wyoming with an air bow is predators. Game & Fish has already addressed this issue. Amazingly enough, after all these years, crossbows are also on their radar.

From: jfish
31-Jan-18
VDGIF has little interest in resource management. It’s all a about funds period! No question herd size is down in many counties across the state. They point to harvest numbers as an indicator that it is ok. However they seem to ignore they have added hunting days, increase weapon selection to included more accurate, easier weapons to kill with, not to meantion today’s Hunter is signifanctly more advanced both in knowledge and equipment than his predecessors. Couple that with today’s coyote numbers using harvest numbers is a faulted. If you think VDGIF bases bag limits on habitat sustainability you are sadly mistaken. Proof of this can be found in the manner in which they freely hand out damage stamps without ever stepping foot on the farm. Adding this arrow gun is simply another money generator for VDGIF and the manufacturer. As far as whether it will have a negative impact? That’s not the point the point is that it is simply wrong to place it in bow season.

From: Woods Walker
31-Jan-18
"It's not how they look Woods Walker, it's how they function that I don't like."

You mean like how the arrow is propelled by energy stored in drawn limbs? And it has a trigger and a sight, and a reduced holding weight? You mean like a compound bow?

From: mitchelk
01-Feb-18
Compound bow 2.0 the Airbow. Find a way to mount a quivilizer and you'll be set

From: Bowriter
01-Feb-18
Ground Hunter- I don't live in WI. I am well aware of what is going on there. I write for a publication based there. I was aware of what was going on there when they freaked out over CWD. I am also aware of what is going on in CA and AL and IL.

I am also aware, we are sliding toward one season for all equipment and more slowly toward European style hunting. I am also very aware, there is not one thing that preserving or eliminating any style of equipment is going to stop the slide. I am aware that legalizing or approving or banning the advances of modern technology is not a contributing factor.This is true simply because the steady decline in human participants is the counterbalance. Simply put, as human numbers decrease, the need for separate seasons decreases and the need for "kill" numbers increases to control population. Obviously, this is not true of all game species. But in general terms, it is true and it is recognized as a growing problem in most states.

Now, it may be comfortable and nostalgic to fondle our bowhunting past and dream of its' preservation for the future. It may help us personally to rail against technological advancement. I do it on a regular basis. I do not like food plots, supplemental feeding, baiting or game cameras. Therefore, I don't use them. But I also admit, not only do they not hurt game populations or bag limits, they do not, in any way, impact me. That is also true of crossbows, airbows or any of the myriad of scary things that have transpired since I started bowhunting. If 20 of us gathered together and were polled as to what constitutes bowhunting, in all probability, we could not agree. Do I think the airbow is archery equipment? Heck no. Absolutely not. Do I think it will impact bowhunting? Heck no. Absolutely not. Do I think it should be allowed in bow season? Heck no. Absolutely not. Am I worried about it? Not in the least. In states where it is legal, it won't even be noticed. Well, maybe in WI where CWD totally decimated their deer herd while wolves and cougars and the Packers had no impact at all. (in case you don't understand that, it is sarcasm.)

Now. For the record, in general, this a good and somewhat needed discussion. This is the sort of discussion that concerned bowhunters need to join in. However, it is also important to be factual. A perfect example of not being so is this: "Crossbows being capable of killing deer easily at extreme distances will ruin bowhunting." That is often read or heard. It is patently false and cannot, in any way, be defended. I suspect those same type of fictional statements will abound concerning the airbow.

01-Feb-18
No matter what State you talk about the number of hunters who hunt with a firearm, far outweighs those who hunt with a bow. The potential to have those firearms hunters purchase an archery license is THE incentive for game agencies to push the crossbow and now the airbow agenda, under the guise of game management, loss of hunter participation, and offering "new" opportunities, of course. The ATA drank the Kool-Aid a long time ago and sold out bowhunters. The manufacturers know this and gear their products towards firearms hunters. They want to shoot something that they are familiar with, and those are a crossbow and an airbow. Both pre-cocked, both pre-loaded, both shouldered, both utilizing a scope, etc... It is purely manufacturer driven and the game agencies drool over the new-found license fees.

From: elkstabber
01-Feb-18
UPDATE: The bill had passed the Senate committee 15-0 last week and passed the House subcommittee yesterday afternoon with a 6-1 vote. It appears to be destined to become law.

01-Feb-18
We are already 3 weeks of Xgun season, the single shot rifle season full chase phase rut (around holloween for two weeks) , then 6 weeks of gun season. 80% of archery is now xgun. Almost more trad bows than compounds in the areas I hunt. I hunt through it all with an osage selfbow. Deer numbers and quality are WAY down everywhere I hunt during that time. EHD and coyotes do not help. Only good new is, I literally have the entire woods to my self by thanksgiving. Literally, very, very few deer there with me ...... Airbow will destroy Xgun sales (currently 80%) Lots of folks are asking me to help them make selfbows! We currently have lots of osage in VA

01-Feb-18
Bowriter,,,, good post,,, do not completely agree with you, but I respect you,,,,,, stay well

From: 12yards
01-Feb-18
No Woods Walker, Xbow and Airbow you sit in a tree cocked and locked ready to shoot. Just like a rifle. With a compound, you draw, hold, shoot in the presence of game. Big difference. That's where I think the line should be drawn. That's my opinion and the opinion of many people. I respect your opinion. I don't agree with it, but I respect it.

From: Bowriter
01-Feb-18
Hmm. as I said, factual. Here are examples of that not being done: 1- "80% of archery is now xgun." prove that statement. 2-"bow and Airbow you sit in a tree cocked and locked ready to shoot. Just like a rifle. " Very misleading because although I have never shot an airbow, I seriously doubt it shoots just like a rifle and I know a crossbow doesn't. Do you have an arrow nocked when you sit in a tree? Do you use sights? Do you use a release with a trigger mechanism? 3- ". Airbow will destroy Xgun sales (currently 80%) " 80% of what? Why would anyone buy an airbow rather than a crossbow? Are you saying 80% of all bow sales in VA are crossbows? Please publish the figures to support that.

If...it shoots an arrow like projectile, it cannot shoot, "like a rifle" Now...will hundreds of gun hunters flock to buy the airbow? There has always been an opportunity for gun hunters to buy equipment that allows them to hunt during bow season. Why do you think it has not happened in the staggering numbers some of you predict? I can tell you. Neither the crossbow nor the airgun is a long range piece of equipment. In most instances, the animal must still be inside 40-yards. It simply is not a matter of going and sitting in your favorite tree and shooting an animal at rifle distances.

01-Feb-18
For those of us who have watched this discussion full term, the slide began with approval of the use of the compound bow for inclusion into general archery seasons. The arguments used to admit the compounds, successfully, are identical to those used for the Xgun successfully, and now the arrowgun, beginning to look successfully. That, simply is the factual history. Those of us on the contrary side have not changed our position, or tactics. All unsuccessfully. Now we all will see the results of these debates. What is after Arrowgun? One thing for certain, there will be something to "increase opportunities". Eventually the result will be "decrease in Opportunities". Which we now see manifested in loss of access. When I started we climber trees and sat on limbs with traditional bows, and wood arrows. I could ask any farmer/landowner for permission to hunt, anywhere, anytime, for free. That is a fact. Pretty obvious where this is going. As I close on retirement, part of my $$ calculation is having enough money to pay for access to hunting opportunity. Either through land purchase or lease, as well as guide tags in draw out-of-state hunts. The increase in opportunity (by reducing skill level required) has in fact drastically reduced opportunity for the majority of people. This was the argument in 1975, and the argument in 2018.

From: ROUGHCOUNTRY
01-Feb-18

ROUGHCOUNTRY's embedded Photo
ROUGHCOUNTRY's embedded Photo
All you have to do is "pimp" out your new gadget with one of the beloved TV guys or gals for a nominal fee. They are universally ready to endorse if the price is right and then you're half way home. Then apply a little grease to legislators and voila, it's on the books. I don't give two sharts if bow hunting numbers are declining. I feel like I see too many yahoos in Sitka camo and rhino side by side machines here in Montana anyway. My apologies as I won a free Sitka jacket in a drawing and bought a used pair of matching pants. I'm about ready to start hunting in high tops again with army camo just to disassociate myself with poster childs of modern bow hunting:(

From: Woods Walker
01-Feb-18
"With a compound, you draw, hold, shoot in the presence of game."

What does that have to do with it being functionally a bow (energy stored in drawn imbs, etc.)? You mean that if you have to draw it where the game might see you? Then what about if you're sitting in an enclosed tent blind with your compound or stickbow, are they not bows in that situation then either?

Should tent blinds be banned from archery season too?

From: 12yards
01-Feb-18
I give up. Note to self: Don't ever try open an airbow or crossbow thread again.

01-Feb-18
Micheal Schwister that is correct and the reality. I personally witnessed and experienced all of it. Of course we will just be called "old and out of touch".

From: Glunt@work
01-Feb-18
Not sure if the sky is falling but I reserved "airbowsite.com" just in case. When life gives you lemons...

01-Feb-18
And why the Jedi run off to abandoned planets when they get old (Luke - Jedi Temple, Obi Wan- Tantoine, Yoda - Dagoba) ;-)

From: stealthycat
01-Feb-18
"Bow season is dead. It was murdered several years ago with this ridiculous march of technology."

true

From: Woods Walker
01-Feb-18
"I give up. Note to self: Don't ever try open an airbow or crossbow thread again."

Why's that? Because you might get asked questions you have no answer for?

From: 12yards
01-Feb-18
You refuse to acknowledge the obvious differences. I have answers, you don't accept them. It's ok. You have your opinion, I have mine. I won't change yours and you won't change mine.

From: Brotsky
01-Feb-18
LMAO, I had to double check, thought I clicked into the Leatherwall by mistake.

From: lawdy
01-Feb-18
Michael Schwister, dead on. At 71 I lived through it all, both bows and muzzleloaders. The bow thing didn't bother me as much as the modern inlines because we lost our 10 day either/or season as the kills skyrocketed, plus I didn't need that compound bow technology. Those early days of muzzleloaders and the old lemonwood longbows were a blast. I met Fred Bear and got to watch him put a broadhead through a steel plate at a sportsman show in Boston. My father bought the Kodiak he used at that show. My grandfather was a fishing buddy of former world boxing champ Jack Sharkey and he arranged for us kids to have lunch with Fred and Ted Williams. I wouldn't cross the street to see Jim Shockey shoot an airbow. Us old guys lived through the best of it. Most of us didn't have a clue as to what we were doing but we learned. Getting a deer back then with a flinter or stick and string was a huge event. Great times.

From: Bowriter
01-Feb-18
Lawdy- Why is getting a deer with a stick bow or flintlock less satisfying today? Could it be because you quit using them or because you can't kill one? How, exactly has technology changed your personal hunting?

You see folks, we just cannot keep living on memories of the past. That doesn't mean we have to change what we are doing. I refuse to use any supplemental feeding. I don't own a trail camera. I scout and I hunt as I did 30-years ago. I shoot a crossbow because I cannot shoot a compound. But my hunting has not changed one bit.

From: Woods Walker
01-Feb-18
A crossbow has only one functional difference between it and a compound......it's mechanically drawn and it holds 100% of the draw weight. Your compound only holds 20% less than that, but you do draw it by hand. They both have sights and triggers. A compound bow is MUCH closer to the detested crossbow than a stickbow is. And yet the hatred is obvious. I have never understood that. If you don't like it, then don't shoot one.

From: lawdy
01-Feb-18

lawdy's embedded Photo
lawdy's embedded Photo
Bowriter- in reference to your last post, a longbow is all I deer and bear hunt with, almost 60 years. Shot this buck Dec. 6, 2017 while still hunting, during late rifle season. I am strictly a groundhunter, mainly a tracker. What was a blast back then was learning to hunt with bows from the ground, screwing up, and enjoying the silence of bowhunting. I still love it though at 71 I move slower. That is why I spotted this guy before he saw me, and shot one in his bed two years ago. Your first sentence in your post was a cheap shot when you don't know me. You legitimately need to use a crossbow, why are you so shook up about this? I think you have a couple of threads going on this topic now.

From: 12yards
01-Feb-18
The dynamics of the hunt while using a compound are much more similar to a stickbow than a crossbow. Describe what you would do with all three as a deer is approaching your stand. The crossbow is much more like using an airbow or rifle. It is undeniable. Even if I loved crossbows I couldn't convince myself that it was similar to using a compound.

From: Woods Walker
01-Feb-18
The airbow is not the same as a crossbow, it's functionally different as has been explained numerous times. It does not belong in bow season anymore than a firearm that shoots an arrow does because that's what it is, an air rifle.

Personally I don't see much difference in a modern compound and a crossbow. That's why I don't shoot either one.

From: spyder24
01-Feb-18
I do own an Air Bow. I bought it to play with. They are not legal in most states to hunt big game with. They are very accurate. My son and myself was hitting 'Skoal" cans at 50 yards. The advantage of an air bow would be that a lazy hunter, that would not practice, could hit a deer in a fatal area. This would result in humane kills without the deer suffering. The disadvantage to the air bow would be that poachers could kill big game without being noticed especially at night.

From: Shawn
01-Feb-18
Bowriter are you kidding?? Most shots must be under 40 yards. I bought my wife who is permanently disabled a crossbow to just get her into shooting. She will not hunt, she liked it but quickly became bored because within 10 minutes she was shooting 2" group at 50 yards off of a rest, are back porch railing. I had no interest in using it so sold it to a buddy. He came shot a few bolts from the back porch and the next day went out and killed 2 deer, one from 45 and the other from 65 yards. No learning curve, no nothing Those two shots were literally the 4th and 5th time he ever shot the crossbow. Again the folks saying it is not much different then shooting a compound are nuts, sorry but nuts!! The airbow will continue to be developed and before long will easily become a 100 yard weapon and beyond. I have owned some very high end air rifles PCP guns capable of shooting 1" groups at 100 yards. Mark my words, once they(airbows) are allowed in archery seasons they will be developed to shoot a much smaller "arrow" that weighs quite a bit yet is propelled at very high speeds of 400 plus fps. Sorry in no way are crossbows or airbows anything like the compound!! Shawn

From: Woods Walker
01-Feb-18
Well Shawn, if difficulty is what determines what is and isn't a bow, then compared to a stickbow then a compound is not a bow. It works both ways.

From: Shawn
01-Feb-18
Not really I shoot a stick bow and have killed a lot of deer with one. I have killed about twice as many with a compound but I have also hunted with a compound with no sights and fingers just as a stickbow and killed plenty of deer that way. Did not say difficulty is what determines what a bow is, you did. Just stating the facts. This garbage about a stickbow and a compound being that mush different is just that garbage. Guys shoot 300 rounds with stickbows all the time and I know of quite a few that average well into the 280"s and 290's. As good or better then a lot of compound shooters. Its not the bow, its the sights that allow guys to that. There is no arguing the fact a crossbow is in fact shoulder and shot and aimed just like a gun is is, not remotely close to how a bow is. Shawn

From: Woods Walker
02-Feb-18
" Did not say difficulty is what determines what a bow is, you did."

Uh...yes you did.

"I bought my wife who is permanently disabled a crossbow to just get her into shooting. She will not hunt, she liked it but quickly became bored because within 10 minutes she was shooting 2" group at 50 yards off of a rest, are back porch railing. I had no interest in using it so sold it to a buddy. He came shot a few bolts from the back porch and the next day went out and killed 2 deer, one from 45 and the other from 65 yards. No learning curve, no nothing Those two shots were literally the 4th and 5th time he ever shot the crossbow."

Or did I misinterpret you?

02-Feb-18
It makes me just laugh to myself when I here xgun proponents use the same argument against the airgun we used against the compound. I know folks with one arm who shoot traditional bows, I knew a blind man that was a highly successful longbow hunter. But someone with a sore shoulder somehow "needs" a crossbow to hunt, or "needs" handicap parking to go to the store. I am legally a disabled veteran. I destroyed my shoulder twice in paratroop accidents (no disability ruling for destroyed shoulder) , almost 30 years ago now. Each time I worked back, without surgery to heavy hunting bows. After the second time I was back shooting my 77# longbow within months. Hard work and learning to deal with pain is part of life, and essential to continue to survive in the real world. Last spring I was diagnosed with stage IVa throat cancer. After 7 weeks of daily radiation and weekly Chemo I was almost too week to stand. I could not walk the 30 yards from the barn to the house without almost vomiting. I could not draw a 40# bow. Archery season opened 6 weeks after treatment ended. I kept pushing, driving. Re-learning how to eat, restating a workout program, very slow at first. On opening day I carried my 62# selfbow 2 miles up a mountain,, with treestand on my back and hunted. I killed a doe near the house day 2, and drug her 40 yards, which about killed me, to my ATV for recovery on my property. A month later I killed a buck a half mile in on public land with my selfbow (opening day inline rifle season), and was able to drag him a half mile to the truck without a break. Many of my HS classmates got DR permits to use a Xgun during archery years ago. They are now mostly too invalid to even hunt. I am signed up to go on a backpack in wilderness elk hunt in Utah over 10,000'. My hunting partner is a HS classmate, longbow hunter, and has stage 4 prostate cancer he has been treated for 2 years now. I do not get disability checks, nor use a disabled parking placard, for a reason. I do not care what others use during archery season anymore, I hunt public land when others are out with scoped 30-06s. I do it for me, for the purity of the hunt. For the challenge and the fulfillment. Fir the pure joy. It is aggrivating that unlimited tags, and unlimited technology have decimated herds, but the more technology that is allowed, the lazier and less skill the competition. 20 years ago I would hike in a mile, 90 minutes before daylight, and find 2-3 other hunters already deep in, on stand, with compounds and climbers. After 6 years of Xguns being allowed for same, 80% of hunters use them, and I NEVER see ANYONE more then 200 yards from where a truck can be driven. They set ONE ladder stand or setup one pop up blind by a food plot and sit it every day, regardless of wind direction or deer sign. They give up mid season, or whenever the temperature is uncomfortable. They could not identify bedding or feeding areas to save their butt, and have no clue that sign is seasonal, and wild deer change prefered food sources and even bedding areas based upon changing conditions. No idea, or even a care to learn how animals use the wind. This whole technology thing is really sad, as it robs those who subscribe to the need, and opportunity to learn and improve ones skills. It robs them of adventure and the uncertainty that makes it all worthwhile. Clay Hayes has really hit the nail on the head with his youtube videos, especially "untamed" and "ascent". The future of bowhunting is not the crossman pioneer airbow, it is folks seeing Clay's videos on youtube, and making and hunting with the osage selfbow. Watch out, when you start seeing 30 somethings walking in the woods wearing plaid wool and carrying a crudely made osage selfbow, you have seen the future, and a TRUE threat to the buck you are after.

From: Skippy
02-Feb-18
Is all the venting is done ?Maybe it's time for this thread to die?

02-Feb-18
I will say Clay Hayes has a great perspective, as does Micheal Schwister. Thank you for your service Mr. Schwister to this great country. I know a hunter who lost part of his little toe in an accident many years ago and has always qualified for a disabled hunting permit. They hand permits out like candy.

02-Feb-18

Missouribreaks's Link

From: Rut Nut
02-Feb-18
All this talk about what is and is not archery got me thinking............................................ is the Atlatl archery???!!! It utilizes a giant arrow-like "projectile".

From: Silverback
02-Feb-18
Shawn, don't you agree that most hunters these days choose the compound over a recurve or longbow because it is easier to be consistant and accurate. I think woods walkers point is although many are against the crossbow and airbow because it too easy and requires little to no practice it really started with the compound bow and that many of the anti crossbow and airbow people have no problem allowing compounds.

From: elkstabber
02-Feb-18
Since starting this thread I've certainly seen/heard a lot of opinions, which is good. Perhaps the most upsetting thing about this bill making the "airbow" an archery weapon in Virginia is that the bill's patrons never once asked the bowhunting community about their proposal. That's right, 60,000 bowhunters in Virginia weren't asked by three politicians who are pushing this bill. We hunters are too complacent when it comes to politics. This is one area that I hope we can all agree in. Hunters need to step up our game in politics.

From: lawdy
02-Feb-18
Elkstabber- good post. Hunters need to attend hearings and confront the antis on their lies and emotional bull. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I have been an activist for 15 years against a huge landgrab up here. I try to keep the feds and their liberal politician friends feet to the fire. Government leeches and politicians hate bad press and losing their cushy jobs with the bennies. We tried to get a 50 permit bobcat season. The antis showed up in force. Only a handful of hunters and trappers were there. The antis won, but now are complaining about losing their pets and songbirds, tough, live with your decision.

From: Buffalo1
02-Feb-18
Are there any individuals, archery companies or bowhunting organizations displaying any opposition to the inclusion of this device as a part of the archery season?

From: tonyo6302
02-Feb-18
Buffalo1, .. .. .. ..

Unfortunately, the Virginia Legislative season begins in January, and is usually over by spring, when all the state delegates and senators go home for 8 months.

this was kind of sprung upon us. Probably too late for any major archer organizations to start a fight.

The crossbow did not really add that many to the archery season, and I doubt that the air bow will either.

For the record, it was the muzzleloader season that stole days from archery only - not the crossbow.

I doubt that the air bow will steal any days away from archery season.

From: Bill Obeid
02-Feb-18
It matters little if the Airbow adds hunters to the archery season. That’s not the point.

More importantly..... the Airbow is not archery equipment, hence it has no place in the archery season.

Guns no matter what they fire ,are guns. You have to ask yourself.... what weapons belong in the archery season?

From: tonyo6302
02-Feb-18
"It matters little if the Airbow adds hunters to the archery season. That’s not the point. "

.. ...

So then, there is no harm, you are saying.

IF the airbow doesn't shorten archery season, and if the airbow does not add any more archery license sales and hunters, then little else will disrupt the season or detract from anyone's hunt. So this whole thread is pointless and moot.

From: JusPassin
02-Feb-18
"Archery" has been on a steady decline as a hunting sport ever since the compound was allowed in it. Like it or not!

From: Bill Obeid
02-Feb-18
I think the harm is in “ the Trojan horse”

If you allow non archery Airbows in the archery season .... where does it end? Allow every weapon in the archery season? Eventually it ain’t archery season

From: tonyo6302
02-Feb-18
Bill,

. ... ..

.. .. .

I have been shooting archery since the 1960's. I remember hearing the same arguments about allowing the compound kills in the P & Y records, and the compound in archery seasons.

I think the Trojan horse that started archery down the slippery slope was the compound.

But hardly anyone wants to talk about how the muzzleloader stole archery season days away from us, in many states. Now that was and is a major impact to bowhunters.

It is the muzzleloader that is the big bad boogie man. I don't think the air bow will take that crown away.

That is my $0.2.

Of course I am against the air bow. I emailed my State Delegates, and that is about all the power I have here in Virginia.

I am not going to loose sleep over it.

From: tonyo6302
02-Feb-18
I also remember after the first and second "crossbow" seasons here in Virginia.

. ...

.. ..

There sure were a lot of crossbows hanging in the pawn shops. LOL.

The crossbows still to this day outnumber the compounds in the pawn shops where I live.

The choice of archery season weapon will not help you get close to game. I think a lot of gun hunters found this out the hard way.

I predict after a few seasons, I will see a lot of air bows in Old Dominion Pawn Shops, and not many people interested in buying them.

From: Shawn
02-Feb-18
Woods again, no where do I say what you state, never even mention those words in my post. Silverback i see the point he is trying to make but again he is not doing a good job of it. There is without a doubt no way a crossgun or this airgun shot like a bow is, absolutely none. Shawn

From: Woods Walker
02-Feb-18
A crossbow is not a gun, no matter how hard you wish it so. It shoots a projectile from energy stored in drawn limbs. At no time in that process is there a "BOOM" or any other explosion of any sort. You can argue over the mechanics of how the BOW string is drawn, held and released, but like a compound bow it's a matter of degree.

An airgun is just that, a gun that shoots an arrow from energy derived from an explosion. Why are we even arguing about the scientifically obvious anyway?

From: Tonybear61
03-Feb-18
An airgun is just that, a gun that shoots an arrow from energy derived from an explosion. Why are we even arguing about the scientifically obvious anyway?

Um because they are placing that airgun which has no bow, spring or similar physics involved in the launching of the projectile?? Different weapons, different seasons for obvious reasons.. make sense or we just go all out any weapon all season as I described above?? Same for fishing too??

From: Woods Walker
03-Feb-18
I wasn't referring to the airgun Tony, but the opinion by many that the crossbow is a "gun" also, which it's not. The airgun should be in gun season and not bow because it's functionally a "gun". Sort of like a guy who wants to use the ladies room because he "thinks" he's a woman, even though the plumbing is still male.

Hey! That's it! Let's have a "TRANS" season!

From: elkstabber
05-Feb-18

elkstabber's embedded Photo
elkstabber's embedded Photo
tonyo6302: you brought up a great point. There will be a bunch of airbows bought and used. Then, at about this time next year there will be a LOT of airbows for sale.

I found out something disturbing about the original story of how this bill came to be. An "extremely handicapped man" approached Delegate Barry Knight asking for help. This man said that he couldn't cock a crossbow. This, according to one Delegate, is what happened. That is why two Delegates and a Senator want to open the airbow for all during archery season.

The logic simply doesn't add up. There is clearly another agenda here. Virginia's bowhunters have been treated poorly, especially within the last couple of years. Last year, about 1/4 of the state had a gun season before bowhunters could start. No wonder Virginia is losing bowhunters...

From: Hh76
05-Feb-18
would you also be able to use a .410 with an arrow pushed down the barrel?

From: tonyo6302
05-Feb-18
"would you also be able to use a .410 with an arrow pushed down the barrel? "

. .. ..

.. ..

Your guess is as good and any on the future.

The only thing not allowed so far seems to be poisoned broadheads, and exploding broadheads ( no .357 Mag bullet, also prohibited )

From: DonVathome
05-Feb-18
Yikes that thing is far superior to a bow

From: tonyo6302
06-Feb-18

tonyo6302's Link
From the Virginia Bowhunters Association;

.. ..

.. ..

Published: 03 February 2018 Here's a letter the VBA Hunting-VP, Shannon Nessselrodt wrote to the Roanoke Times to conveys VBA position on the Airbow Bills.

We have taken a position against this. We have sent letters to both members of the House and Senate including the sponsors and co-sponsors of the Bills. We are in the process of getting a delegation together to go and speak to the Agriculture Committee next Wednesday, February 7th. So far, we have been snubbed by the Delegates, Mr. Edmunds in particular and the Senate. We have had the President of the VBA and myself write letters as well as the President of the Traditional Bowhunters of Virginia. We are against it because it is NOT a bow. It has no limbs or string to propel and Arrow. Calling this a BOW is like calling a sling shot an elastic pistol! My concern is people that have never Hunted with a bow will pick this weapon up and think it is going to drop an animal like a rifle. It is also going to make road hunting and spotlighting easier for outlaws. The House and Senate should be concerned with the decline in Archery licenses over the last three years. I'm afraid this is going to hurt it even more. What's the next novelty they will allow sharpened digging irons? We need to get back to Archery weapons being a long, recurve, compound or cross bow.

From: tonyo6302
06-Feb-18
Virginia House Bill 1393 has been reported, but not voted on yet. .. .. Virginia Senate Bill 859 is still in committee.

There is still time to make calls.

From: Catscratch
07-Feb-18
I've always said the "except for disabled" statement was dangerous. Guys will argue against crossbows till they're blue in the face... then end with "except for disabled". From a lawmaker's point of view this statement is an admittance that it is in fact archery equipment. Might not be popular archery equipment but is certainly archery. You don't hear the argument that an AR is not a bow but it should be allowed in archery season for disabled people. The crossbow has been accepted as archery for so long in that manner it was only a matter of time before lawmakers (when pushed by $$$ lobbyist) would say "sure, it's already there why not make it mainstream". I sincerely think we brought this on ourselves, we opened the door in the first place.

No matter how you define archery one thing is certain; the compound is no longer the easiest way to get into archery.

From: nijimasu
07-Feb-18
Various states will of course look at this differently, but the next time I hear someone complaining about lighted nocks or mech heads or high let-off bows being illegal in Idaho, I'm going to bring up this device. Bowriter and others, I can tell you exactly how this would ruin archery in here Idaho, whether we're hunting for the "right reasons" (whatever those might be) or not.

We enjoy relatively long archery seasons here in Idaho, that are open only to specifically defined archery equipment. Separate seasons are designated "any weapon," which are essentially firearm seasons. They are much more popular, and consequently, do to management concerns, are much, much shorter in length and are more constricted in their areas.

Naturally, many lobbyists want to let one or another technical advancement (mech heads, lighted nocks, yada, yada, yada) be used in our Idaho bow seasons, so that their people can sell them here. Some archers would like to use them for their benefits, and no doubt they would make money. However- they have become the "line in the sand," so to speak.

The "make money " part sounds great, and I think most people would contend that lighted nocks and mech broadheads are not going to kill anything an archer with a well tuned set up wouldn't kill anyway.

However, don't forget that majority of hunters that enjoy the "any weapons" season. I can't say how it is in your respective states, but here the non bow-toting folks are more than a little bit jealous of our long archery seasons. They don't like elk being hassled by an archery-only season that comes before their season, etc. I've heard many who would forgo the "we're all hunters, let's all be in this together" attitude and would really like to see our generous archery opportunities swapped out in various degrees for more "any weapon" opportunities. Some are downright pissed archers have a seperate season at all.

Because of that, anything that can be PERCEIVED as making hunting during "archery only" seasons less primitive and more efficient gives these guys (and the lobbyists faunching at the bit) a reason to get nasty and try and push legislation through curtailing the archery seasons we love here. I've been told by Fish and Game officials that this is no conspiracy theory wive's tale whatsoever- implementation of modern advancements will definitely cause archery seasons to lose ground. Specifically referred to in this context are lighted nocks and mech heads. Despite the reality of them not changing bowhunter efficiency in any great way, their PERCEPTION as such would be enough to start edging things away, hence they have become the "line in the sand" I mentioned. Can you imagine what the PERCEPTION of this "airbow's" efficiency would do to our archery seasons here, real or not?

From: spyder24
12-Feb-18
My concern with airbows is all the illegal activity that they will be used for. Any state has the right to make any weapon legal to hunt with. It is the hunters choice not to use the weapon. The airbow is very accurate at least out to 50 yds. I bought one to play with and my son and myself can hit Skoal cans that far consistantly. For all the lazy hunters that do not want to practice it will give them a way to make humane kills on animals. I see no advantage with the airbow to a crossbow other than the ability to stick it out a vehicle window to kill an animal illegally. It would be easier to carry through the woods than a crossbow. I feel sorry for the animals that are smart enough to escape legal hunters just to be poached illegally.

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