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One thing that was clear in the meeting is that most hunters in the state want to see crossbows allowed during the archery season. It is of my opinion that this will eventually happen.

But here is an interesting statement placed by a gentleman advocating crossbows be allowed during the archery season. "There will be a lot less wounding taking place if crossbows are allowed" He then proceeded to say how much more accurate they are than hand held bows.

I shook my head in disbelief. It got a little bit loud soon after.

His statement is true in that stated morons will be shooting better. It’s false in that crossbows will get more non shooting morons flinging arrows. I get your point but one can easily get a lot of truth from his statement. BTW I’m only for crossbows for people that are medically not able to draw a vertical bow, unless they are used in gun season then who cares.

Archers today are not arguing that crossbows make archery easier..........Archers today are arguing that crossbows ARE NOT archery equipment. Therefore do not belong in the archery season.

This has nothing to do with deer or DEER SEASON. Or who's animal is getting killed....& by who ! It has nothing to do with triggers and wheels. It has everything to do with holding a bow in your hand and releasing an arrow with the other hand. Just because archery evolved with a compound doesn't mean you can make the jump to crossbows as a form of evolved archery.

Archery TO ME is holding your "bow" at one's arms length away from the body and drawing an arrow with the opposing arm.......using your upper body muscles steady enough to release an arrow in an accurate result. The feeling of satisfaction one gets from that is different than shooting a gun or a crossbow. Shooting a bow is quite unique and hence was given it's own unique season.

Guns and crossbows have their own unique experience and they are entitled to their own unique season. I and the others here on Bowsite that oppose crossbows in the archery season ...............oppose it for no other reason than you can't hold a crossbow away from your body and release an arrow. Crossbows are in most archery seasons and I can accept that. But , there are a few archery seasons around the country that are "crossbow free" and that sounds pretty good too.

There are rifle hunters who can't hit the broadside of a barn at 200 yds, alone a 1 ft square vital area.

There are muzzy hunters who have erratic bullet flight no matter what, yet still go out into the woods.

I personally know of some archers that shoot "lights out" in league shoots yet turn deer and elk into pin cushions fairly regular.

Crossbows will add no advantage to better accuracy...

Personally, I have always felt that: 1) older folks should be able to use them, 2) disabled folks should be able to use them. But, that hasn't been the case. I have not had issues in the field as I hunt mainly private land and other bowhunters there do not use them.

I think its a case of folks wanting things easier and not having to practice. Advertising on TV that shows them shooting them at 100 yards doesn't help. Enter "nimrod hunter" who has no bowhunting experience or blood tracking and maybe a little gun hunting experience, and behold a recipe for disaster with bolts flying at distant animals.... JMHO...

As many of you know, in Colorado we have 10 big game species and most tags are limited draw to some extent. A few years back, the opponents of the xbow presented a citizen's petition to the Wildlife Commission to allow xbow in archery only seasons regardless of species. Currently, the xbow can be used by one who can prove being "disabled", in the archery only seasons.

The opponents reasoning was that, the CPW was loosing a lot of money by not recruiting the youth and woman into the shooting sports and by allowing the xbow, more of them would inter and purchase licenses, also because the xbow was easier to use and needed a shorter timeline to learn.

The CBA's counter reasoning was, 1. they supported the tradition of using the hand held, hand drawn bow. 2. Bow hunter numbers have doubled to 44,000 elk and deer hunting during the past 20 years. 3. women in bow hunting has grown 100% in the last 10 years, 4. and youth participating in the sport of bow hunting and shooting and also increased tremendously. And all with the hand held, hand drawn, recurve, long, or compound bow. Growth was there. No need for the xbow in the archery only seasons. Currently also, the xbow like a rife or ML, can be used in any rife big game season and also for small game such as turkeys.

The CPW reasoning against the xbow in the archery seasons was, there are already too many bow hunter in the elk seasons,(pre mature migration) etc, and they had reason to believe that many rifle hunters would switch to the xbow and further increase the numbers of those participating in the archer only seasons. Also the concern was that the harvest numbers might go up, thus, maybe causing more game units to go from OTC to limited draw.

The wildlife commission have hearing the both side, voted 99% to remain Status Quo, not allowing the xbow in the bow hunting only seasons. One commissioner vote to allow those "over 55 years" to use a xbow. I testified that I was over 70 years and there was no reason for that and that all the "over 55ers" had to do was to pump some iron and get stronger.

As part of the CBA"s Mission Statement is the following and printed in our bylaws and in the CBA magazine. The following:

"The CBA categorically rejects crossbow technology as being legal archery equipment for use during any archer only season in Colorado, and will actively oppose the use of crossbows or implementation of crossbow seasons under any circumstance, where such use will diminish or degrade the bow hunting experience, opportunity, and /or quality with the handheld, hand drawn bow."

my best, Paul

This thread is dealing with crossbows and their entry into Iowa's deer season.

Iowa archery deer season is considered one of the nations finest. Iowa has done a great job managing their resource. I think .. ain't broke don't fix it . Why change a thing?

I just had to laugh at what I feel was an ignorant statement by that gentleman. A comment that quieted the crowd gathered was. "How many deer are wounded by shotguns?" Less than bows? as the gentleman was implying.

At my location most were in favor of crossbows for the entire archery season. And allowing senior citizens to use them during archery season if the previous would not be allowed.

I used to hunt with a few guys who turned crossbow due to shoulder injuries, age ,etc. After a few losses by taking running shots, bad angles or shooting two with one arrow (geeze I didn't know a crossbow could do that), they really don't go "bowhunting" or enjoy it anymore. Wonder why that is?? Allowing cross bow didn't retain or recruit new bowhunters, it lost them.

I think it gives users a little over confidence ring they use a scope.

A buddy of mine uses one in MO and likes it over his bow, it hasn’t improved his success.

So out of the two I know that use it I don’t see it reducing wounding or improving success. I just can’t see using one over a bow.

It’s to protect the resource. It protects the resource because it’s harder to catch fish with flies.

If you fish a waterway that is designated “ fly fishing only” with live bait, you will get a citation. Why? Because it’s considered cheating.

It doesn’t take much to see a Correlation.

I do know a handful of rifle hunters who bought a crossbow and hunted a couple of yrs with them. They took long shots, wounded deer, and hunted many more sits than they were used to or even wanted. They burned out pretty quickly and went back to rifle hunting. A few of these guys still go out occasionally during the rut with their crossbow, but if push comes to shove and they didn't have an "anyseason" tag they would stick completely with firearms.

I have zero archery buddies who switched to crossbows. They all stayed with their compounds.

To sum it up, I've personally seen almost no impact due to inclusion so in real life it hasn't been a problem for me. I don't understand the degrading comments, name calling, and segregation of fellow hunters. I read posts demoralizing crossbow hunters (from people who justify it by saying it's too easy) and find it hypocritical. It amazes me that anyone who would use; a pile of corn, a guide, a store bought blind, a compound, a private lease, or a high fence hunt would have the audacity to criticize someone for using a crossbow. In my mind every one of the things I just listed is a far better aid for success than having a crossbow in hand. So, while I really don't care if crossbows are allowed in archery season... I do care how we treat our fellow hunters. This may be why you think I'm for crossbows, as I've defended them in the past to people who were derogatory and hypocritical.

I also completely understand that my reality in a sparsely populated area of KS may be completely different than the reality of someone in a hunter dense area of a northeastern state. If a guy in MN says that inclusion ruined his hunting then who I'm I to say it didn't. He has a much different situation than I do.

I believe it's true that MANY youth are introduced to bow season with crossbows and that will become more prevalent as time goes on. History will repeat itself and just like archery shifted from stick n string to compounds, it will shift from compound to crossbow.

You have to have a more substantive argument than just breaking out the dictionary.

So outlined definitions and norms mean absolutely nothing. Arguements like that are why in some states people are attempting to marry their pets. When people don’t accept definitions and time honored tradition then it’s all moral relativism, what’s good for me is ok, right? If we can’t define archery as a vertical hand held launch point then how do define other game laws and bag limits? Definitions matter wether they are defined by the culture, Webster or God.

If the season definition changes then what is your argument? If the definition of archery equipment changes, then what is your argument?

Definitions change, time honored traditions change, people's perceptions change. Things change!

It would help your argument tremendously if you could explain why crossbows would a detriment to the archery season.

Missouri I agree that’s exactly why my daughters won’t ever have the option of a crossbow. I also don’t want them killing deer with a gun before a bow. I want to foster the excitement of bow hunting before showing them the easy way to kill. My 8 year old daughter killed a doe this year after shooting since she was 4 and a year of not hunting, missing the legal minimum by 1 pound. If it took her until she was 14 to get the minimum she would have had to wait. Knowing it was getting to the minimum or not hunting pushed her to get there. My second daughter is weaker and she’ll likely be ten before killing a deer but if it wasn’t about the challenge I’d teach them to shoot a deer at 400 yards out the window of the car.

The definition of a muzzle loader has changed.

I'm just saying when your entire argument hinges on a definition then at some point in the future you're going to find yourself without much of an argument. It's already happening. The general hunting population is starting to recognize crossbows as archery equipment whether you like it or not. They're considered legal archery equipment in many states and there doesn't seem to be any slowing that down.

If you want to stop them then you're going to have to come up with a better reason to disallow them than they don't fit YOUR definition.

You have never been on any crossbow forum most real crossbow hunters like real bow hunters whatever that is are always tinkering and buying new stuff !!! For that matter most real gun hunters do the same. I know many bow hunters that bought compounds and after being set up never went back to the archery shop either. Just more fake news !!

They already are legal in my states firearm season that was one way to get the foot in t the door to push for full inclusion in the regular archery season. MN Bowhunters Inc. and P & Y and even a few DNR directors knew it at the time and here they come this year proposing to do just that.

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From 2007 to 2010, I qualified for, and was accepted as a Hunting Member of Suburban Whitetail Management of Northern Virginia. During this time, an old Bowsite Member named Bogunshutze was the “Club” President.

We hunted all year-round on Kill Permits in the ‘burbs of Fairfax, Prince William, Arlington, and Loudan Counties in the Northern Virginia area, near Washington D.C. Usually this was on private “big home” properties of at least a 5 acre lot. Some of these mansions were 10 to 15 acres or more. The Deer are still so thick, that Fairfax even opened up the County Parks for Archers.

First, just to start joining the club, you had to have proof of 5 big game bowkills under you belt. Then there was an interview process, and a shooting qualification.

The Club only allowed compounds and crossbows. No Trad gear because of the closeness of hunting near people’s houses, and nearby neighbors could be anti-hunters. You just didn’t want the chance of a wounded deer dying on someone elses property after a bad shot. Seriously, only the most dedicated Trad shooter can consistently hit their target, and those who shoot Trad be honest with yourself. I have a recurve and a self made stick bow, but when I want to hit consistently past 15 yards, I will grab my Hoyt compound. I know my limitations with Trad, and won’t try to bullshit anyone about it.

To qualify with either or both the crossbow and compound, you had to hit a 6 inch diameter target two of three times at 20 and 30 yards with broadheads. If qualifying a crossbow, it could not be supported – you had to shoot it offhand standing.

My last year with the club, 2010, they finally recorded their first crossbow wounded deer that was not found. Up until that year, there had never been a crossbow wounded deer get away. With compounds, the club ran about a 5% or less non-recovery rate. I only stopped hunting with SWMNV due to the traffic on Interstate 95, as I got tired of sitting in traffic jams just to drive to and from the Kill Permit counties.

Crossbows definitely are more deadly in the hands of an experienced hunter that know about shot placement.

Now lets have an honest talk about compound accuracy. Having been required to qualify shooting my Hoyt with SWMNV, I have also had to qualify my archery skills at both the Marine Base at Quantico, VA, and when I lived in Maryland, to apply for special archery hunts there. The Quantico and Maryland qualifications were with field points, at a 12 inch target at 25 yards ( 20 for the Maryland test ). During the qualifications at both Quantico and the state of Maryland, over 50 percent of archers could not hit a 12 inch target at 25 yards with field points, two out of three shots.

My point here, concerning archers and accuracy, is that we can bad mouth gun hunters all day long, slamming them for taking up the crossbow, all the while we don’t’ even weed out those who don’t shoot compounds well enough to join a youth league.

I have shot 3D ranges in California, North Carolina, Kentucky, Virginia, and Maryland, and honestly, we have a lot of poor marksmen in our ranks. Just being honest. And certainly, there are a lot of people that are better shots than I. However, I have had to qualify several times, and have made the cut.

Yea, I know, “Everyone on Bowsite shoots a 300” – Serbian Shark, Bowsite, circa 2008

Flame away if ya want, but these are my experiences from both shooting and observing others since about 1967 or so, and my observations on those that shoot the crossbow. There is a lot less wounding with the crossbow.

Tony

Seems with full crossbow inclusion during archery seasons, this is a very, very legitimate question. Who has the answers?

I realize that many of us could talk about this topic for months and still get no where...

But to me, using a crossbow is much easier to learn than a bow - period. It takes a lot of the ‘tough’ aspects out of bow hunting. I could take a person off the street and within a couple of hours have them shooting good groups at 60 within an hour or two)

Using a cross gun may not be as large of an impact for a state/area that has an over abundance and liberal seasons on turkey, deer, etc. The reason I started hunting archery is I wanted more of a challenge, less crowded public lands, etc. allowing someone with a Xgun to apply and hunt off an archery tag - messes up that balance for me in most areas I enjoy hunting. let’s face it, out west, there just aren’t enough, elk, mule deer, antelope, etc to go around for everyone who wants to hunt. I make no apologies in my belief that hunting with a cross gun should NOT apply to archery only seasons... (though I have no problem with them for the disabled, elderly hunters, or say youth 14 and under)

I take a ‘non-socialist’ view on it I guess.... if you want to apply and hunt archery seasons - you are more than welcome to pick up a bow and apply/Hunt... practice hard, refine and perfect your craft and abilities... no one is trying to be mean by not allowing xguns during archery or not supporting other hunters which is always a humorous rallying cry - not everyone wins,and gets a trophy in life...

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My old computer crashed a couple of years ago, and all I can find is a December 2009 newsletter.

Before the end of Dec 2009, the years tally was 403 deer were hit, 377 were found. 26 were not found. It did not break down the compound versus crossbow number of hits.

Bogunshutze ( Ralph ) had informed me, that from the "Clubs" inception in 1997, until 2010, there had been zero deer unrecovered when shot by a crossbow.

I would suggest you contact the "Club" directly, and ask for the breakdown. WWW.DeerDamage.org is the website.

I just find it very ironic that we bemoan the crossbow, stating the anyone can be tack driving at 50 yards after an hours training session, then scoff at the idea that crossbows wound less than compounds.

I, too, think that crossbows shoud have been kept in gun seasons. But they have not been.

Since we cannot put that Crossbow Genie back in the bottle, we shoud look at hunter inclusion instead, and fight the anti-hunters, and the dwindling numbers of those who hunt in general, with the inclusiveness of all who shoot a stringed bow of any type.

. . . . or, we can "elite" ourselves right out of any hunting at all, much like the demise of Oregon Bear Hunting with hounds, and other states like Colorado, where the dwindling numbers of hunters are losing our voice. . . . .

I think it was several years ago, that Matt said, "There will be archery seasons only as long as the gun hunters tolerate us." ( or words to that effect )

Tony

The Genie in Iowa is not out of the bottle. And I don’t feel it is elitist to ask Iowa DNR to keep archery season for those that use bows and arrows.

Yet

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Just make sure you fight with facts and not emotion, otherwise, the crossbow guys (crossgun for the real haters) will kill ya.

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The survey says (No. 1 Answer): because he was hunting.

;^)

I could care less if a person wants to use a crossbow in a muzzleloading or gun season. But no one does! People only want to substitute them for hand-held bows in archery-only seasons because they perceive them as being easier to shoot and more accurate and more gun-like. In many western states, game populations cannot handle increased harvest. Permitting crossbows to be used during archery-only seasons in those state will eventually result in archery-only seasons being reduced. Do you want your elk/mule deer seasons reduced so that crossbow hunters can join in? I sure don't.

This I agree with.

We, as bowhunters, are our own worst enemy.

Question........ If your kid wants to go hunting with you, no matter the age and where legal, and they want to use a crossbow and only a crossbow...... Is there a single Dad or Mom here that is going to tell their kid NO, you can't hunt with me unless its with a vertical bow? Something to think about.

Yes they do. In gun season, or for the elderly, young or disabled in bow season.