Just So We're Clear (Crossbow Thread)
General Topic
So I've been reading a lot on my forum sites about crossbows. I see a lot of different takes on it, but the one that bugs me the most is "It ruins bow hunting"..... So I wanted to just make sure I'm hearing this right..... You think that the tradition of bow hunting was founded by Mathews, Hoyt, PSE, and Bowtech? How about the compounds with ANY let-off? Did cavemen create cams? Listen, I shoot a Mathews Halon 32 with 85% let off, FMJ's and Ironwill's to go with it... All man made, all perhaps against the grain of traditional archery. So, if you want to use a crossbow go for it. Enjoy the sport and pass it on. We spend so much time trying to figure out whether we are staying true to a code, that we forget that we started doing this because we enjoyed the adventure, the fun, the comradery and the memories.....
Lots of closet crossbow users pretending to be bowhunters. Go for it, pass it on!
....see where that big tent gets you down the road
Well, if I were a traditional shooter and a woman, my shirt would say, if it has wheels or a penis, sooner or later is going to cause you problems. If I were a traditional shooter and a man, it would be slightly altered. If I shot a crossbow, (which I do), it would say, "If I had to shoot an airbow, I would quit bowhunting. If I were a true bowhunter, my shirt would not have anything written on it because it is hard to write on fur. Now, I have to go twist a new sinew string and see if I can find some obsidian to make some points. Plus, I have to put some fresh bear tallow on my rails.
I get both sides of this argument. I started with Bear, grumley, Jeffries recurves and long bows. Then a bear Whitetail. Progressed through different brands. Went back to traditional. Even made Self Bows and arrows for a while. Now I shoot a Friggin Mathews Triax. The furthest thing from a self bow. And it still takes a lot of dedication to shoot that particular peice of equipment to “IT’S” potential which is only around 60 yds for me. 40 on a whitetail. I see the issue in a state with limited archery tags being used by equipment that is stretching the primitive boundaries. But isn’t that what the “Primitive” and “Traditional” shooters say about us training wheel guys. The Atlatl and spear throwers think that if you use epoxy, carbon fiber or fiberglass on your long bow you are cheating
No: "We started this". because we were hungry.(Humans) And I have zero issues with crossguns or their users, so long as they are kept in "gun" seasons. Archery seasons are set up for "archery" hunters period. That is why they are often longer, and during more advantageous time frames...
I have no problem with compgun shooters either....as long as they are kept out of archery season.
I don't think it ruins bowhunting...I know it does... by historical evidence. The only issue at play is one of an individual perspective.
Let's understand that the primary difference is one of how the power is loaded. Either the trad bow or the compound's power is limited by the natural ability/strength of the archery. The crossbow offers a significant difference in that it can be mechanically loaded in terms of power...increasing it's development potential in the coming decades. One might successfully argue that the compound's development cycle is largely tapped after decades of improvement, but that likely can't be said to be true with any weapon allowed in an archery season that can be loaded without the strength of the archer.
Human's are very prone to adapt by nature to 'easier/faster' methods. However, within the context of any restricted season, that technology uses comes at the demise of the use of the "past' technology. Can anybody really say that compounds didn't 'ruin' traditional archery? Traditional archery still exist, but only as a small percentage subset to the larger bowhunting picture. "Ruin' in this case is defined by prevailence of use.
Compounds can be replaced by crossbows in this sense. Crossbows can be replaced by air bows. The danger politically is in the sense of 'bridging' the differences in technology. What not be accomplished in change in one step...often is accomplished when the effort is taken in small incremental steps. For example, does any one think we could have made crossbows legal when the trad bow was still the archery weapon in the 60's?.... maybe in some places...but generally not.
Lastly, this discussion is never understood if your open to unrestrictive season formats. For you to acknowledge that your season was ruined, you have to have some empathy and respect to how it works today.
In closing, its often said that crossbows never have lead to reduced seasons or bag limits...are your absolutely sure? I'm under the belief that many states have experienced loss of seasons (of different types) and/or bag limit reductions since the legalization of the crossbow in those states. The only difference, is the states don't necessarily admit that it is due to the crossbow. My home state is one of those. I contend that states never own up to a mistake.
Mark, Beautifully said and written. Tks, Duncan
So is the argument that it is too much of an advantage to the hunter against another hunter, or too much against the animal. I would say that trail cameras give a far greater advantage to the hunter and is pushing the fair chase boundaries more than a crossbow. Cameras over water, food and bedding areas to learn the patterns of animals. Also 5-20 people scouting, spotting for and hunting one animal and calling it DIY . If it’s someone getting an unfair advantage over us we are worried about then we have greater technology issues than crossbows.
I shoot a compound and got a recurve and self bow to play with. IMO....I believe a wheeled compound is related alot more to a wheeled crossbow than it is to a recurve/longbow. A recurve/longbow is related more to an un-wheeled crossbow than it's wheeled cousins. To me, whether it's held vertical or horizontal is not too relevant.....the big practical differences in the two groups is one group is wheeled and the other is hold assist. With that perspective, if I put them in a pecking order of mechanical advantage from least to most, it would look like this.....
1. Recurve/longbow - no hold
2. Un-wheeled crossbow - hold
3. Wheeled Compound - no hold
4. Wheeled crossbow - hold
I see a lot of guys shooting compounds out to 80-100 yards now accurately..... watch a few of those Cam Hanes videos. It’s pretty hard to criticize the effectiveness of crossbows when archery gear is pushing the effective range out further and further. Pretty soon all archers will be shooting 100 yards.
Howard hill, Fred Bear and many others were killing animals 50 years ago at 100 yds.
The thing that can give any weapon the advantage is the operator and where he chooses to hunt. An average guy with a recurve who has a great place to hunt will be more successful than an average guy with a crossbow who has a crappy place to hunt. A good hunter with a recurve in a marginal location will be more successful than inexperienced hunter with a crossbow in a marginal place. That is why time after time you see examples of guys with specific weapons killing far more mature bucks than other guys in same hunting areas. My neighbor has been hunting with a recurve for years and he had switched from compound to make it more of a challenge. He rarely kills anything and come to think or it, rarely killed anything with the wheels. He is now making the move to a longbow. He needs to make it more of a challenge. What could be more of a challenge than not killing anything?
Altitude..... I’d bet you my next paycheck they weren’t doing it consistently at 100 yards.... ethics were different then. They didn’t care if they wounded game...... they would fling arrows if they had a chance of a hit........
They also used aircraft to locate game in Alaska and immediately hunt it..... which is illegal now. Fred also researched the poison pods......to kill animals on marginal hits......
Times were different then. Show me one current video of anyone shooting accurately with a recurve at 100 yards.......
I hear there are now Crossbow websites that have talk forums. If you are interested in Crossbows the information gained there could be helpful to you.
I do not go on those sites and I wonder why healthy Crossbow guys want to change me and Bowsite?
Charlie+1 ! To many western bowhunters, it isn't a factor of fair chase or whether it's fair to other hunters vs. fair to the animal. It's a question of diminishing opportunity. While I shoot a compound, I do believe the steady advance of compound bow technology has steadily eroded at our opportunities in my state. Success rates are multiple times higher than they were 20 years ago, and because of limited big game populations that haven't increased over that time, the number of permits and length of seasons have gone down substantially. For example, two of the most popular antelope units have gone from 150 and 190 permits to 8 and 40, respectively. The season lengths are beginning to change from 14 days to 7 days. We could draw an archery antelope tag two out of three years, now it take more than 10 years to get one. Certainly there are additional factors at play, but a lot of it is because technology has increased success rates to unsustainable levels without shortening seasons and limiting permits. And you don't think adding crossbows to archery seasons are going to make that worse?
Much like the issues of eastern hunters thinking they should have equal opportunities at our permits that residents do (because it's Federal land or whatever the argument), eastern hunters that have nearly unlimited OTC permits just can't possibly see this from the same perspective as those of us that have to go years between even getting to hunt in our own states. I can see the inclusiveness arguments for why it shouldn't matter in those states where tags are easy, but in the states where there is no doubt that including crossbows in archery seasons would worsen our already disappearing chances to hunt, it just isn't the same issue at all.
This thread starts off with a dig against folks on one side of the issue immediately followed by a call to focus on coming together?
We have a ways to go.
I don’t care if your shoot a crossbow, but it isn’t bowhunting.
Charlie +2. Glad you clarified, I thought Bowsite had morphed into Crossbowsite!
Rattling +1. Not drawn or held by your own power. Not a bow. That said, including them in archery season is a whole different discussion with pros and cons. Regardless of opinions, pretty sure they are here to stay.
Stickflucker gets it totally. Lots of point creep in the east too, try applying for a black bear tag. Eastern hunters tend to have a myopic whitetail only in farm land mentality. The wildlife resources beyond farm country deer are not unlimited. Anything we do to make killing easier will and does result in reduced opportunity.
" I have no problem with crossguns as long as they are not used in archery season" I have no problem with compounds as long as they are not used in archery season. I shoot and will continue to shoot what ever I please. That includes recurve,longbow.compound and crossbow. Frankly I shooting what ever makes me happy on any given day
"I do not go on those sites and I wonder why healthy Crossbow guys want to change me and Bowsite?"
+1000
Have experience hunting with two guys who use crossbows.
Good friend Stan, I met bear hunting. Stan is 63 and been hunting since he was a kid. Started traditional, moved to compound and progressed to XBow a few years ago due to shoulder problems. Comes to hunt my farm. Does not take shots over 30 yards. For him it is about doing what he has done for 50 years. I have no problem with it. He is not taking opportunity from others and continues to support hunting through license purchases. He respects the wildlife.
The other is an in-law who I gave a bow to 6 months before the season began. He never picked it up until a few days before season. He discovered even a compound takes practice so on opening day he goes to BP and buys their most expensive xbow-$1700. Shoots it three times at paper, they tell him he is good to go. Fortunately we do not hunt together now.
I shoot a compound and I admit it is much simpler than trade gear and that is why I do it. So I really have little room to judge.
Seeing crossbows used in wyoming last year, I no longer have a problem with them in archery season. That individual affects me no more than any other individual in the elk woods. Especially with the new "I'm good out to 60" attitude of today's compound shooter. I expect their game dept to keep tabs on technology as well as harvest stats, making adjustments as needed. If the technology needs regulated, regulate it.
" I have no problem with crossguns as long as they are not used in archery season" I have no problem with compounds as long as they are not used in archery season. I shoot and will continue to shoot what ever I please. That includes recurve,longbow.compound and crossbow. Frankly I shooting what ever makes me happy on any given day.."
BINGO! You get it!
Thank you Charlie Rehor and StickFlicker for excellent perspectives.
"I hear there are now Crossbow websites that have talk forums. If you are interested in Crossbows the information gained there could be helpful to you. I do not go on those sites and I wonder why healthy Crossbow guys want to change me and Bowsite?"
Exactly!
Blah blah blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah
You guys are beating a dead horse. however bad you want it to be a gun it's not, it shoots a arrow off of a string From power stored in the limbs. It's a type of bow no matter what you call it. Time to move on guys. Go hunt something [ The hard way of course] yes that was sarcasm!
Scopes are the problem. I don't care if you are shooting a rifle. You can only kill what the eye can hold the target on. We need scoped seasons and scope less seasons. This will eliminate crossbows, air rifles, etc. for the most part. Guys will use longbows and compounds if they prefer archery and a gun if they want to use iron sights.
Scopes should be allowed for primates only. Then, we could have the scopes monkey trial...again.
I have come to understand something about all these posts. They are digital farts. They mean nothing, soon evaporate but for short time, make you feel better. It is called the Me-thane principle. Me-thane, You-thane. Some are In-sane.
I do not believe crossbows or airguns launching arrows belong in the archery season, for all the reasons already stated. OK, they can be but you must draw them by hand. No rope or other mechanical cocking devices. If you can't draw a bow or crossbow by hand, you gun hunt. Oh that's not fair? Whatever, where is the line? Just go ahead and use anything you want in archery season.
Ground Hunter pretty much nailed it.
Crossbows don't give an unfair advantage, especially for those who practice at 90 yds with a compound to make those 30 and 40 yd chip shots. They are cumbersome and slightly awkward and more suited to hunt a blind or treestand. Afterall, only a fool would walk around with a CB cocked, locked, and ready to rock.
Anyone threatened by a crossbow out west has some serious confidence problems in their own ability.
Well, as far as I'M concerned....ahhh....never mind....
Huge advantage when you can kick back in a lounge chair with a gun, and not have to draw.
groundhunter X2
The late Larry Benoit as far as I know never used a bow, but for my money you couldn't find a better dyed-in-wool over deer hunter than he was. It's not the weapon, it's the man.
"Anyone threatened by a crossbow out west has some serious confidence problems in their own ability." Now that's funny.
So all of you saying it has nothing to do with the weapon are in favor of one season all weapons?
Yes, one season, all weapons.
Here is a little history to ponder on bows style birthdays-
1000 BC- Central Asians invented the recurve bow; 700 BC- Chinese invented the crossbow; 1180 AD- Celts in Wales invented the longbow
6/23/1966 initial patent applied for a compound bow by Holless Allen 1974 production on compound bow began by Tom Jennings
Crossbows won't change the archery season, blah, blah, blah-WRONG. Look at OH, WI and plenty of other examples. Airbow won't change the archery season, blah, blah, blah-WRONG! Putting an arrow in anything that can launch it is archery equipment, blah, blah, blah-WRONG!
The Archery Trade Association no longer supports their use for the full archery season, due to the fact its a superior weapon over hand-held bows e.g. weaponry not to be used in a lengthy, liberal primitive season). Any person with a 1/2 brain knows this. Plenty of demonstrations out there, and yes Sam there is a movie...if you can't visualize it or read.
So just to be clear let me take fish by any method, at any time including hook and line, bait, artificial lure with as many hooks as I want, plus nets, seines, spears, harpoons, cages.. because we are all anglers can't we just get along? We're better than the antis.... See the parallel here?? WAKE UP!!!
In summary and "just so we are clear", crossbows, airbows, crossguns are not hand held bows, are superior weapons many believe they do not belong in the general archery season except for the disabled. Got It??? Separate seasons, separate weapons stop wasting time on this argument. Life isn't fair so don't ask to use a oversized racket, auto server machine against me on the tennis court either.. "cause we all are players of the sport."
"If you can't draw a bow or crossbow by hand, you gun hunt. Oh that's not fair? Whatever, where is the line? Just go ahead and use anything you want in archery season. "
That may be but if I pick up a gun, gun-like weapon it will be used in that designated season, plenty of opportunities for that already.
Just to be clear, bowhunters do not hunt with crossbows. Crossbow hunters are not bowhunters, they are crossbow hunters. I will remain a bowhunter as defined by the P&Y Club.
Ha ha ha funny stuff right there !
I seen a lot of penis comparison here fellas. I get it, your bows are bad to the bone. I however shoot a crossbow and a compound.... I am far more accurate with my compound, I cannot "tune" a crossbow... I cannot hit a solid group passed 50 yards, I believe that my compound reaches the target faster than my crossbow and I am absolutely positive that my Mathews is far more devastating.... You guys forgot what happened when compounds came out? To my knowledge, it was a similar argument. I want us to unify as HUNTERS. I am really interested in how we let hunting become so god damn polarized.... You guys are more willing to segregate than congregate. That's gang mentality! HAHA
"I hear there are now Crossbow websites that have talk forums. If you are interested in Crossbows the information gained there could be helpful to you.
I do not go on those sites and I wonder why healthy Crossbow guys want to change me and Bowsite?"
I don't believe this post can be repeated enough! This is BOWSITE!
Lose the use of your arm and no longer be able to pull a bow and tell me about how much you hate crossbows. If you chose to not use it during an archery hunt that is your loss. I will use a crossbow and continue to hunt. I have no intention of sitting at home when I can be hunting.
creed, please point out where anyone has said they have a problem with crossbows being used by the disabled.
If your crossbow is slower than your coumpound and can't group past 50 yards there is a serious problem.
Agreed Charlie... Dilly Dilly
Well I guess we're clear
I'm in Charlie's camp. Why were they first introduced into archery seasons for the disabled if they aren't different? New x-bows are easier to carry around than a compound. Not drinking the kool-aid.
I have a longbow now, so GET OFF MY LAWN!!! :)
Always makes for good reading. Thanks my fellow sportsman
compounders want their super easy of mechanical releases, drop away rests, 90% letoff's, drop away rests and all the other bells and whistles that allow them great accuracy, fast speeds and super quiet, light bows
they don't want anyone else to have something easier though
in a twist of irony, the compounders also don't want the traditional guys doing it the hard way to look down on their easy
that's the way it is
I liked the digital farts comment. :)
What one guy thinks IS bowhunting and what isn't is just that guys opinion and nothing more really. Why is sitting in a tree to kill deer "bowhunting"? Isn't that really just bow shooting? Where's the hunt? Hunting for the right tree to sit in is the only hunting part honestly. Add a bait pile or bait plot (liked that comment too) and you're taking even more of the sport out of it. But it's all cool by me, it's an individual sport that you can play how ever you want to within the confines of the law. So why guys get so bent about how I go about my business or anyone else for that matter is beyond me. Fact is way more guys like and use crossbows than what I use. I'm a minority which bothers me none because I get to do it my way. Relax people, you still get to do it your way too.
Well I'm glad stealthy knows the way it is. We can all look to him for guidance. So stealthy, in your knowledge of how it is, where do you put the compounders that also shoot trad bows? Or would do call those guys trad guys that dabble in the occult? I'm thoroughly confused since we put these compound guys in one box, and trad guys in a different box, but then some of them swing both ways, and... and...and...oh man I'm just so conFUSED!
Dude's only been posting on here for a little while talking crap on the guys who have been here for years defending a topic that always gets heated. Then asks for advice in other threads lmao.
None of us care if you shoot a crossbow. The main opinion on the site is vertical hand drawn bows are "archery tackle". We all believe in being able to use your preferred choice of sporting arm. But still want separate seasons for hand drawn bows.
Opportunity shrinks when you allow people who do not dedicate the same time being proficient with their bow to put in to use a crossbow. That's a fact. Sure harvest rates may even go down because they may not be putting in the same time as someone disciplined enough to tune and shoot their bows constantly that transfers over to the boots on the ground scouting dedication.
If you don't like drawing tags that's fine with me, but don't try to shit on the dedicated guys and lower tag odds just because you "sometimes use a crossbow".
Good posts, I am staying with the P&Y clubs current definition of a bow and bowhunter. However, I would venture to guess as true bowhunter membership and animal entries decline, P&Y will eventually change their definitions and requirements. They have a history of catering to the masses, and money.
Always remember, no one is perfect. Everyone's ass has a crack in it.
Jack has the only solid and reasonable objection I've read so far. The drawing of tags in some states. We just draw for bear and elk here in MI and weapon doesn't make a difference. Good point Dyjack.
Going to get a bit wordy here so I apologize beforehand. I've always stated away from crossbow discussions but here are my thoughts. I have absolutely nothing against their usage...perhaps because some day I may have to use one due to a physical condition. If/when that time comes I'd want to do it in bow season...because first and foremost I'm a bowhunter. My one and only gripe about them is that, in many cases, they're used by a gun hunter looking for more hunting time by taking the easy way out. He's not, nor ever will be, what I would classify as a "bowhunter". This "crossbow contingent" also includes a fair number of erstwhile bowhunters that take it up for the easy way out, also. Let me give an example: I was bowhunting a particular spot off and on (more on) for a couple weeks. I saw deer every morning one side or the other of me between sunup and about 10:00 every time there...just never had a shot. They would cross the road up from where I parked. Then one morning I saw absolutely nothing...I thought that very strange. When I went out to my truck I saw why. Up the road from me there were five vehicles parked. As I was getting into my truck seven guys with crossbows exited the woods from the side the deer normally came from. I came to the, perhaps, wrong conclusion that those guys were "gun hunting" with their crossbows. So, in conclusion, I'm not against crossbows...just the element of hunter it's put into the woods. As I said, I may have to use one some day but, if I do, I'll hunt no differently than what I do with my recurve and compound.
Just think 'IF' there was release restriction put on the compound few years ago, we as bowhunters probably would be in this situation. As Cornpone this is the norm now on public land, gun hunting mentality as invaded the bow hunting woods.
So many people today were not around pre compound. They think the high tech compounds of today are the norm. They are not, they are high tech arrow shooting machines that just happen to be hand held and drawn. For the average shooter their ease of use,their accuracy particularly at distances greater than 20 yards rivals a crossbow. A special archery deer season was granted during the longbow and recurve days because it was difficult. It is supposed to be. You guys crying foul because of the crossbow are not much better with your high tech compounds. Before your label me as a traditional elitest I am not. I shoot a recurve,longbow,mathews compound and a Excalibur crossbow. I like them all. The do not effect my ethics. I just want to go into the big woods with the weapon of my choice and enjoy the few years I have left. At 70 yrs old you never know. Every day is a blessing. .
I would gladly put away my compound if making archery season traditional only would prevent crossbows/air"bow" from entering the season as a non handicap arm.
To the point above; having spent a great amount of time in the legislature, one cannot under estimate how the approval of one thing creates a swell of demand for something else that is similar...but just slightly more advanced. It's human nature to rationalize for self benefit. Frankly, I could rationalize a sling shot to a nuclear weapon..... as long as I had unlimited incremental steps to transition rationalization with.
All the 'choice' arguments accomplish at the end of the day is to take the archery season to something that is unrecognizable as archery in a few years...the process of rationalzation never stops
"It's human nature to rationalize for self benefit. " - "the process of rationalization never stops".
.
I totally agree. And those of us who argue against rationalization are often deemed irrational. It's part and parcel of winning the incremental battle.
