What happened? I am extremely confused!
Whitetail Deer
I am going went hunting last night and here is what happened.
I shot a doe last night at 30 yds broadside.
I shoot with both eyes open and watched the arrow sink tight right behind her shoulder.
The shot looked like it would be just high in the 12 ring for you 3d guys.
She turned around and walke about five steps.
I thought she was going to tip over.
Instead she took five more steps and laid down behind some trees 40 yds away with he head up.
Her head was up for 15 min before she laid it down...
I am scratching my head at this point but figure no big deal she is dead righ there.....
Then five minutes later she stands ups takes two steps and sort flops back down.
Now I am really scratching my head?
It appears that she finiall expires right there...
I give it 20 minutes in the dark before I get down...
I don't hear her get up so I sneek out to my truck walking directly away from her.
I give her 1 more hour and recuit help, I even almost filled my tag out before going to get her.
We go in to get her and she is not there!!! Find my arrow and it is soaked with good blood, not guts, or stomach matter at all, arrow looks good and smells good.
Now I am beside myself?
Not much blood in either bed....we track her for 15 yds and loose blood...just a couple of drops
We back out and after 3 hours search mission with three guys we can't find her?
OK...what the hell happened? I have been hunting for years and I am totally stumped....I know what I saw was a good shot and that the deer looked to be on its last breath when I last seen the deer.
Your advice is appreciated
Thanks.
I sure don't want to be the one to mention the 'space'between the spine and lungs.
She's dead...you just have to find her.....Jeff
Hard to say. I had a similar experience years ago. Arrowed a good buck just behind the shoulder but a little high.Expected to find him piled up within 75 yards.
Long story short, the blood ran out after about 50 yds and I never found that deer despite searching for 2 days. Even brought in a dog.It was on my family's farm and no carcass was ever found. I am still sick about it.
Some have told me there is a "no man's land" above the lungs but below the spine where an arrow will miss the vitals.I have heard many conflicting views on this subject.
Your shot sounds better than mine. Bottom line:Sometimes you will never know.
With lung shots death is often due to collapsed lungs and subsequent suffocation rather than blood loss. Sometimes it takes a while, especially if the deer remains calm and doesn't take off running.
She's dead, nearby, too. Proably not more than 100 yards away.
I learned this the hard way too. She's definitely dead.
Really --> What sounds like a lethal hit IS a lethal hit.
You have to try the typically search methods - which is hard when you would rather be hunting. Try circling, larger and larger. Or use a grid method (which I typically find is less effective as you generally only see things from the same anlge when using the grid method). Whichever method you choose, use binoculars as you're going. It can save you some walking. Be thorough. Make sure you check even the places you think that she wasn't moving towards. That's typically a big mistake people make when running searches. Remember, deer will sometimes backtrack, or get spooked in a direction, or in their "haze" end up heading in a different direction (other than a straight line). This is especially true for a deer that didn't take off at a dead-run from the point of impact.
My guess is she's within 200 yards of where you last saw her.
Check any creek beds, dense brush or downed trees. She there somehwere.
Tell you what guys...3 of us looked for 3 hours this morning in all directions and she is not there?
If it was the void area why would she lay down imediately, and then get up and almost collapse,....I believe she is dead but after three hours of looking with three guys I am not sure where to look anymore...I am just sick about it! Also if it was the void area why would the arrow be soaked in blood? But why can't we find her? O I am sick!
Sounds like a liver hit...You will have to grid search and I have been told by a surgions asst. that a human can under certain conditions survive liver laceration without surgiory. and he thought a deer possably could.
Good Luck finding her Milt
You probably hit her higher than you think. There is a lot of space between the top of the back and the spine. I'd guess you grazed the top of her spine and shocked her a bit. She recovered and walked off. She'll likely die still. Go back and look everywhere again.
I shot a buck in that area between the lungs and the spine right behind the the shoulder last year, and he went 40 yards and just laid down, came back 3 hours later with the truck to pick him up, only to watch him stand up and walk away. Never found the deer, and there was only a couple drops of blood. My question is when you hit them in that area how does it kill them?
If you can, now is the time to bring in a dog. Good luck and I know what you are going through, been there.
I'd bet you hit high, above the spine and got nada.
Yes,I have had this to happen a couple of times.
Question: Where you hunting from a treestand and did you enter the deer from the right side???
Yes I was hunting from a tree stand about 20 feet up and the arrow entred from her left side.
I appreciate all the feed back. However I don't want to turn this into a thread about the "void area" I know what I saw when the arrow entered her and it was what I would call perfect shot placement!
I wish I had a good dog because that is what i would do but I have no access to one.....We combed every inch of the woods surrounding the deer in a radius of at least 200yds........There is a cattail slough that is my only guess that she can be in....and we scoured that but came up empty.
check any huge fallen tree with hollow hole or tall grass that you might miss check. Doe might crawl under tree to hide or laid down motionless on tall grass without sighting. Similar sitaution to my hunter buddy got nice 8 pts buck in Michigan. after shot, Never find him until wintertime (February). He looked for shed-hunting, Worst scenrio, He found dead 8 pts buck that He shot at. Buck was under tree with big hollow hole to hide from him which He never bother to check under fallen tree. Trykon
First forget any "void" comments. If you had hit her high she most likely would have bolted out of there.
20' up, Hmmm, my guess is she was quartered away and hitting right behind the shoulder its possible you only caught one lung, Or your angle was steeper then you thought and still only caught one lung.
The 12 ring as you discribed is not tight behind the shoulder, more towards the elbow, since the elbow protects the heart.
I'm with trophy8 you one lunged her from a high shot angle or slight deflection. The low exit wound is plugged with fat and they can go a ways on one lung with little or no blood out the exit hole. I've been there and luckily I found mine by following all the trails in the area. She was 300 yds out and died right on the trail. I was 10 minutes from giving up. Good luck and pray a little. GBTG
I'm betting on the cattail slough. You'll almost have to step on her to find her in there, especially if she felt pressured at all. I know of a doe that buried herself in a cattail slough after being shot and the only way she was recovered was by someone stepping on her. She's there somewhere.
If no the void, consider this. And I'm no tracking expert but I've been reading J. Trout's "finding wounded deer" (a must read by the way)and it's got me thinking. . . . Maybe somehow you popped one lung high. 30 yards broadside and 20 feet high is not much of an angle, but who knows you could've just missed the first lung and punctured the second. I would figure the deer would've bolted, that is the only thing telling me I'm wrong, but you never know every deer and every hit is different. Blood soaked arrow not guts says maybe a lung . . .what color was the blood? Bright? How about hair? Read that book if you're not alreayd an expert. Fact that she beds for that long but not alot of blood could mean a high lung hit, the lung didn't fill up and spill to the ground in time. Wound could've coagulated and ther ya go, you have a deer running around minus a lung, but all blood is internal. The deer is dead most certainly, but all you can do is what you did, grid etc. I feel for ya I lost my first deer last year, though it was because I squared her in the shoulder blade, arrown only penetrated 3-4 inches and snapped, and I saw her alive two weeks later. I still wake up thinking about that one though.
my mistake english sentence! " my hunter buddy shot at(not "got"). Ooppss. Trykon
Hi; Check with local game office they may have someone with a dog. If not is there a local game club in your area? if so see if you can find a coon hunter usually their dogs will find a dead deer. Good luck!
no doubt it was a one lung,I've had them live for 12 hours after I walked up to them to load up!
Left one lungers usually don't live as long as right ones in my experience.Hope you recovery her.
The answer of course is that none of us,including you,know what was hit.The only answer is keep looking.Don't rely any longer on what you 'saw'.We all think we know where we hit but often are off a dollar bill(6 inches)or more.Often much more. With your arrow description and the way she acted I would tend to agree she's dead. There is no answer here,the answer is out there.
Liver...she is dead but probably hundreds of yards away...
I couldn't take it............I went out and found her!!!!! Walked by her 3 times this morning....she was completely submereged in water in a bever run....by the cattails! Details to follow!!!!
Do an autopsy and let us know the exact entry/exit and what organs were hit(PICS ??)...Glad you got her !!!....Congrats....Jeff
I agree with a liver hit. An arrow can do some strange things on impact of a deer. If its a light arrow it could have deflected and gone a total different direction inside the animal. Sometimes you think the deer is totaly perpendicular to you but they are angled more than you think. I hit a buck that I thought was a good shot like you said. But it went about 40 yards and laid down. About the exact situation as you discribed. When they just lay down like that, that close after the shot, the hit is liver or guts. I found mine after about 4 hours of tracking, looking for crows, scuff marks and low areas (water). I finaly found it by looking down some ravines. I was surprised how far back my hit was from where I thought it was. Good luck.
Here is the entry wound.......Pretty dam close to exactly what i remember seeing......to me this is very satisfying.......it is easy to let doubt creep in to your mind...but I know what I saw and finding her confirmed that what I thought looked to be pretty dam perfect actually was real close to being perfect.
Here is the exit hole....one of two things happened here......she either wasn't standing perfectly broadside Like I remember but rather she was slightly quarting to or she started to turn at the shot causing the arrow to exit a little bit back.
I have to go but before I do and check back in tomorrow I will let you all debate over what vital organs where hit.........i took pictures.....
the thing that leaves me scratching my head is, whith this exit wound why wasn't there any blood trail?
And to anwser any ethical questions......yes I tagged and registered this deer, and brought her to the local butcher shop to decide if the meat was any good....
.......here is to a good night sleep knowing that i did what I could to find this deer!!
..Thanks for the support to go back after her!
Glad to see you found her.What kind of broadhead were you using?The hole looks small.
Ha!!!!!!! that is truly confounding. Looks like a double lunger to me. I can say this is one for the experts and I'd be truly interested in everyone's thoughts. Did you autopsy or just gut and smile? How far from the bed she first laid down in?
The entry hole looks pretty small? What head did you use? It's ammazing how easy it can be to walk past a dead animal without seeing it. Glad you found her. Did the water keep the temp down enough?
Another factor is when they don't run like a bat out of hades they can live longer.
A touch too far back...Been there, done that.....Liver...maybe clipped the back of the left lung.
With those entry and exit holes, you are correct, that deer should have been dead within minutes at most. Strange things happen...
Same thing that happened to me like I said above. One lung may have been clipped, and then traveled through the liver. That is a small hole, are you using Mechanicals and it didn't open? or did sitting in the water do something to the hole?
What BH were you using?? ....Jeff
Congrats on finding her, and posting the pics, not that it should matter because I'm right there with you thinking that from your pics this deer should of been down, and you should of had a decent blood trail to follow, but what type of broadheads are you using? just curious. -- Van
That arrow should be fwd the liver on entry and under it on exit,it's just one of those things,I've seen it several times on my animals as well as on others.
I would say you only got 1 lung, maybe nicked the second one. Had one simalar to this a few years ago and it was baffling but I now understand it much better after that experience.
Nice job Big Nine, great to see the follow through and that you found her. I'm sure the meat is fine, unless it was extremely hot.
Yeah, that deer should have died quick, but as others have said it makes a big differnce that she didn't bolt after the shot. I'm betting you center punched the left lung and just missed the right lung. She lived a while longer than normal with the one lung since she didn't run.
Broadhead was a Jackhammer, right?
Mystery ended! Let's learning something what you had been thru. Congr! Trykon
Good job on finding her. Put a Snuffer on the end of that arrow, and that doe would have been cut in half shortly after impact.
ditto the broadhead question. Those are some real small holes.
Congrats on the deer Big Nine!!!! Been there myself a couple times.. You definately start second guessing yourself, when they are not where they're supposed to be......
Glad you found the deer, looks like lung and stomach. I'm curious to the brand of BH, that is one small hole. Looks like a few I had with mech's.
I too would like to know the mystery BH you used? Glad you found it!
I say one lung, liver, and stomach.
Still a good shot, they are some tough animals.
Congrats on finding her.
My guess by looking at the holes, One lung (maybe nicked other lung but not enough to cause deflation) diaphram and liver. A hundred yard dash would probably have done her in, but she took it real easy after the hit and lasted an hour or two. Hiding in the swamp doesn't surprise me, she's probably hid there many times as people walked by and felt secure there.
Good on you for persistance! If the meats no good get it in writing from the butcher shop and go ask, I know some states will issue you another tag.
what happened to her left ear?
I'll bet at some time in her life she got grabbed by a yote, prolly as a fawn or yearling. They grab at the ears and the ear tears as the deer is trying to escape.
Well....They are tough critters. A Human can live with a punctured lung and completely recover with no medical attention. So can a deer. Also....you can have the chest cavity punctured without puncturing a lung. They are resilient, and can be pushed aside with only bruising. Just because you "should" have caught lungs, doesn't always mean that you did
Good to see you stuck with it, and she was recovered. Curious to see just what you caught with the broadhead.
My bet is bottom of on-side lung, esophagus/top of stomach, +/- edge of liver. In any event, in this case you are waiting for her to bleed to death which can take a while without a major vessel transection. Attached is an image of a human positioned "broadside" if you will. You can see the vessels branching from the hilum ("root") of the lung getting progressively smaller until they are mere millimeters (tens of microns to be precise) at the edges. Cutting these outside of the central zone (red circle) will often not lead to a rapid bleed and a single collapsed lung (pneumothorax) is not necessarily lethal. I suspect the lethal hit was bleeding into belly from liver or guts and all blood stayed in belly instead of spilling out. Back to lurking and thanks for not started the darn VOID thing again!
let's see those pics...I say one lung and liver
i realy want to know what broad head you were using that is a tiny hole in that deer?
Looks to me like you hit the left lung and missed the right one. This is a great thread!! We can ALL learn something from this one. I cant wait to see the internals!! I hate to say I was doubting you when you said your shot placement was good...... but I was. I would have been baffled too!
I would think you got both lungs with that shot.
I had a buddy shoot a 5x5 bull elk last year with a similar shot. He left a good blood trail and we figured him dead. It turns out that we jumped the bull up after about 200 yards and he trotted off like nothing was wrong. We followed tracks and a scant blood trail for several miles and never found that bull. We figured that because of the steepness of the angle that he hit one lung and the arrow exited too low to hit the other lung.
My guess it that the shot hit one lung pretty good and clipped the other one without cutting much vascular tissue. I would be willing to venture that the exit is near the diaphram and stomach and was probably plugged with tissue (fat, stomach, muscle, etc.), so only a very small amount of blood was able to get out. I believe that a liver hit would have had to have been higher up and further back.
Alright everyone, I am back in the office. After doing and autopsy, I would appear that I went through the left lung and the crease in the liver. All damage was in front of the diaphram...so no guts to plug the exit hole, and this deer as you can see is not fat...so I am still scratching my head as to why she didn't bleed through the exit hole.
I don't really want to get into brand bashing on here so what I will say about the broadhead I was using is this,
I tried this head for the very first time and it is an extremely accurate head.....100 grians with a 1 1/8" cutting diameter.....needless to say I will never use them again although I think the broadhead ultimately performed what it was capapable of....I feel very strongly if I would of used my 1 3/4" 100 grain Jackhammer on this deer it would not of made it past 20 seconds. I have amazing luck with the Jackhammers over the last five years and feel foolish for trying anything else.....
....Picture of the lung
and last but not least......a happy hunter! Again thanks for the support.....it is truly amazing that some deer just have an amazing will to live....Bowhunting has to be the greatest sport on earth......I think I can hunt until I am 100 and still learn something every season.
Exit hole is much higher than I first perceived......great thread!
I feel that we are on this site to learn and from this thread we have learned. However, not telling us which broadhead is an injustice to those who commented on this thread and to those who read it. It is not brand bashing. It is telling it like it is and let us make up our minds. Many guys wanted to learn which head you used, including me. There are a lot of 100 gr. 1 1/8 inch heads out there and this info would help us.
Chip
Good Job Big Nine! -and thanks for sharing with us. Your shot was a very lethal one. It just took a little time for her to go down for good, and then she went down in real tough spot. I wish we all had access to a good blood trailing dog for these situations.
A small point of clearification on this-
"All damage was in front of the diaphram..."
The liver is behind the diaphram, between the diaphram and stomach. I made a shot very much like yours. It went through the liver, and passed through the offside lung. That buck walked 20yds and fell over. I was probably using a similar head, a 125gr steelhead. They are known for smallish entry wounds.
I've superimposed a leg bone in the approximate area it lies on a deer that size and in that position.
Many bowhunters still shoot behind the front leg and to be honest with you, that is too far back on many occasions, leading to many lost critters. If you want to be sure you get the critters you shoot, consider the leg bone make up and shoot farther forward. In fact right up the middle of the front leg is a good line and the height will depend on the angle of the shot, determined by various conditions such as if your shooting from a treestand, level ground, or up/down hill on the ground.
I've marked the approximate area I would want to hit on a treestand shot on this deer. If you can hit near that spot, you will more than likely be able to watch the animal go down.
Have a great bowhunt. BB
BB,that's interesting.I would absolutely never aim that far forward....especially out of a treestand.
I've just seen too many shoulder shots not recovered.
No disrespect meant at all.
9
You can give me that shot on a deer any day and I'll gladly take it!
Good job on the recovery effort & thanks for sharing.
Sometimes none one can answer for the lack of blood. Just know it can happen.
Here's a picture of a bull elk taken this year in Utah by a good young friend who I try to coach a bit. I told Jeff to aim straight up middle of the front leg. He showed me this picture and ask me how he did! I exclaimed great.
Steve, I understand where your are coming from, but I've seen too many critters lost to hits just behind the shoulder. I really feel you will loose and wound much less game with an arrow right up the middle of the front leg than you ever will by shooting that far back.
Have a great bowhunt. BB
Big 9-Congrats on finding the deer and showing all you could about it. BB-For starters how on earth did you get that leg on there? Since his deer was quartering away a bit a see what you mean about hitting right on the leg. On quartering away shots you want to aim towards the opposite shoulder. Can I assume you are saying that if you aim directly on the leg you have more of a margin of error right and left than aiming behind the shoulder?
Chip
Excellent thread! Thanks for sharing Big Nine!
Chip, I just skinned the hide in the photo and there it was!
Really that is an antelope leg bone from my son's last year’s antelope. I just took pictures of it, resized the leg bone to the approximate size it would be (trial and error) and then cloned it onto Big 9's photo.
If an animal is quartering away from you, then you can shoot farther back and have the arrow travel through the area you want, but if an animal is quartering to you it is imperative you don't shoot behind the crease as your arrow will be heading back into no no land. If one learns to aim up the middle of the front leg on what he thinks is a broadside shot or near broadside shot, he will be amazed at how fast the critter goes down. And if you hit straight up the front leg, you probably get both lungs on a quartering to critter as long as it's not too severe of an angle.
Have a great bowhunt BB
I agree with ZBONE. If it was a expandable. Did it have two blades or three blades.
I agree, this is a great, instructional thread. I would recommend sharing the broadhead design and make with us readers though. Not to 'Brand' bash, but to educate us on what works,,and what doesn't. Maybe save some other hunters lost game. ~ Steve
It appears to be a 3 blade head, muzzy, stryker, or wacem.
Bill in MI
sorry, saw the 1 1/8" cut detail after..
Had to be a G5 montec or stryker. Based on the results I'd say a 'not very sharp' montec...
Bill in MI
Dont start on mechs zbone.:) The composer of this thread stated he felt foolish for NOT using his mechs...wasp jakhammers.
And he's 100% right about that animal not lasting 20 sec. with a 1 3/4" hole in her.
is there any other kind of montec?
Back in the beginning someone mentioned a tracking dog, and this thread is certainly a case in point as to why they can be so useful. There may not have been a lot of visible blood after her wound bed, but to a trained tracking canine this doe would have reeked of blood and the track would have been a relatively easy one from the sounds of it.
Just as a reminder to all, if you have access to a trained tracker go and get them at the first sign of trouble. Don't do a grid search with blood on your boots and THEN go get the tracking dog. That can just make matters harder to sort out.
Shot looked good to me Big Nine, and I commend your perseverence in sticking with it.
Has anyone heard about the type of BH yet? LOL!
Sorry Bou' I was being redundant...again.
Bill in MI
I wish I could place an arrow straight up middle of the leg everytime,but I can't.2" behind the crease is better than scapula.With critters being spherical targets the scapula will be even a larger factor when shooting from an elevated platform.
Yes,I'm guilty of extending my "kill zone" a little more posteror as I have the working knowledge that shots a little to alot back are very deadly if the proper tracking techniques are applied.Conversely,the scapula will ruin a shot that is just 2 inches off.Also the more forward a shot the more muscluar dynamics can affect penetration.
I recover animals hit in my kill zone.I may not watch them fall everytime but it works and I'm not losing them due to shoulder hits.I just can't go against this principle but I understand those that "tuck'em tight"
Glad the thread author took the time to follow it through,interesting.
Great thread! I would have thought that deer would be down for the count with that hit. From where you found her, could you describe how far and what route you think she took to end up where she did? Thank for being persistent.
Glad you found the deer.
I thought bigfoot had taken it.
Big Nine, did you say how far away you found that and I just missed it? if not could you please respond I would also like to know how long it took to find her. you truly are a credit to the sport of Bowhunting, I wish more people were as responsible. Awesome thread, this has happened to me on a couple of occasions, only they ran and I never found them. I was even beginning to believe in the "void" myself but I've gutted way too many deer for that.
Appreciate the education from your experience. Glad you had the determination to go out and keep looking for her when you knew she was down.
BB, as always, the pictures speak volumes! Thanks for sharing fellas. I learned something from this.
iowaPete
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
yeah, what he said......... :)
First, congratulations Big Nine on your deer and effort in the recovery. Second, because the broadhead question begs to be answered, I'll throw this thought out there. Remember, just a thought! My guess is the BH used was a mechanical. It looks to me as if the BH entered the deer in the closed position and opened while passing through the deer and then exited. I'm not for or against any type of BH. Shoot what makes you happy. I could be totally wrong, but that's my guess.
Problem on this shot, is that most all of the rapid bleeding we hope for in tracking, still fell inside the diaghram. The blood would have had to fill-up to nearly the midline of the chest cavity, before it would spill out through the exit hole in the diaghram that passed through the liver. And from my experiences with liver hits. You seldom get a lot of heavy blood trails. But you will find massive clots inside the abdominal cavity when field-dressed.
BB, I'm in agreement with staying "tight" to the leg. Problem is, if you wander a bit high, especially on elk, it can bite you hard. But stay below the 1/2way mark on the chest.....dead critter and short follow-up.
Problem on this shot, is that most all of the rapid bleeding we hope for in tracking, still fell inside the diaghram. The blood would have had to fill-up to nearly the midline of the chest cavity, before it would spill out through the exit hole in the diaghram that passed through the liver. And from my experiences with liver hits. You seldom get a lot of heavy blood trails. But you will find massive clots inside the abdominal cavity when field-dressed.
BB, I'm in agreement with staying "tight" to the leg. Problem is, if you wander a bit high, especially on elk, it can bite you hard. But stay below the 1/2way mark on the chest.....dead critter and short follow-up.
Sorry for the double post.
My guess for the BH, is Muzzy.
Woody,I hung around a dairy just long enough to be familiar with "bailing wire cardiopathy" (redneck version of pericarditis) as well as peritonitis .Never seen the magnet actually used but I've eaten the after effects at McDonalds....:)I believe without a doubt the diaphragm reaches the shoulder line.I've shoulder shot bucks and had them run 10 yards and expire with minimal penetration.
I'm not at all suggesting that my aim point is where his arrow hit,I was saying I'm not man enough to stick it where BB's diagram was placed.I want my ERRANT shot to be in the liver reticulum/stomach than testing the dynamics of a scapula.
To anwser a few questions,
I shot the deer at 30 yds and she only went 10 yds before she laid down. After 20 minutes she got up and went about 3 steps and laid back down/collapsed....I gave it another 20 minutes in the dark and went to the truck....since she was only bedded 40yds away, I am assuming I bumped her when i climbed down....When I found her the next day she was roughly 150 yds in a straight line from where i had last seen her.....she went straight for water and that is where I found her...totally submerged in a beaver channel in the middle of the small cattail slough...
The broadhead did what it was capable of....it was an expandable and it did perform properly...it was a complete pass through sticking in the ground with all three blade still attached....the only issue, in my opinion, was that it had a small cutting diameter of 1 1/8"
And one quick coment, for anyone to suggest that the entry wound is too far back is just plain crazy! Remember she appeared to be perfectly broadside when I took the shot.....now if she would have been quatering too me stong, i would agree but she wasn't she was either broadside and turned to me at the shot or she was actually slightly quartering to me....but for reference sake she seemed to be perfectly broadside when I took the shot and put the pin where I did. I will take this same shot every time.
What was the Broadhead...inquiring minds want to know!!!!!!!!
Big Nine, I would take that shot everytime too man. To me that is a good hit. Congrats on the deer.
it was the slight quarter to that made the track job a head scratcher,no doubt.
that said, I just shot a mule deer with the same entry/exit,he was dead in 15 secs and 30 yards.Go figure.Didn't mean to hijack the thread.
I agree with vtbowhunter307. Not only would I take that shot every time, I'd be willing to bet you would get a dead deer every time. In your case there was some difficulty finding it, but that's the nature of the game. I also don't think the cutting diameter matters as long as it's legal. Again, congrats!
Shot placement isn't an issue. I am a firm beliver that one of the main keys is to take the diaghram along with a major organ. That is why I feel the quartering away shot far surpassed the broadside shot.
You made the correct shot. Slight body angles will happen in the field.
One hit lung + one hit liver = dead animal... Eventually.
Good job at making the recovery. I shot one late yesterday afternoon and it only went 20 yards. I saw it fall and didn't even have to blood trail. I could see the hole in the deer as it took off. I was using a Jak-Hammer and the first time I tried a Luma Nock. Man I like those things. Several times I have recovered deer in the water and man they can be hard to spot. It is also real easy to walk right by them. I gave up one time and went and got my beagle and it took him a couple of minutes to stop at the edge of a stream. I spied just the tip of an antler above the water at a log jam in the stream.
Congrats on the recovery big9 that looks like a pretty good shot to me. I in the past i have aimed at the shoulder and taken several deer but it has also cost me one or two by hiting just a little off of where i was aiming and catching the shoulder bone. I have since started aiming about heart level and right on the crease of the shoulder that alows me a little bit of room each way. I have in the past been known to hit deer high thus is why i started aiming low, i figure worst case i might shoot under the deer if i misjudge the distance. thats better than making a bad shot.
The next 10 deer you hit in the exact spot will probably be dead within 50 yards. The only thing I would ask is how sharp your broadhead was? You can easily shoot a head through a deer and it can slide over the blood vessels instead of cutting them. Other than that I am at a loss as to why you didn't get a great blood trail as it looked like a great hit to me.
Bignine what kind of deer is that. Its really dark in color.
I also think the broadhead blades were not sharp enough. I would check all your unfired ones. I'll bet they are not as sharp as they should be. Any sharp broadhead of 1 1/8" should leave a larger hole than that.
This is one of the best threads I've ever seen on this web site, except for one thing...we need to know what the broadhead was.
It has been very informative, the descriptions you have given and the pictures have been great and we all have learned something from this I'm sure, but it's not complete until you finish the learning by telling us what the broadhead was. It's not a matter of bashing a brand, but just giving complete information to show us what happened IN THIS CASE.
Your shot was great, your effort in recovering the deer great, your pictures and information provided here great, please finish it by telling us what you used.
what's especially bad is when you see them laughing as they search for the smallest cucumber.......
Interesting thread. Sometimes you just don't have a blood trail, and I cannot explain it.
This photo, Thunderhead entry wound, 15 yard shot, double lunged, and no blood trail at all. I just happened to remember seeing a sapling shaking about 80 yards from my tree about 8 seconds from impact.
Never did find a blood trail.
This is where I found the little 3 point. ( It was still a trophy to me ! ! ! )
This is the exit wound, again, thunderhead 125, 15 yard shot.
Again, no blood trail at all.
After blade sharpness was brought up I looked back at that lung picture and the wound doesn't look at all like what I'm used to seeing.
Normally you have a very distinct, clean X. That looks more like a shotgun made it than a broadhead.
What head was that again?:)
I think it is clear that the BH will remain a mystery for the remainder of this thread. LOL!
Monk, that is an interesting pic, I'm glad you posted it there was some mention in this thread about aiming far foreward into the shoulder, but I've had the experience of aiming there only to have the deer compress to jump bringing that leg bone up into your projected arrow placement it's happened to me twice on deer and once on a large hog. I got low penetration as my arrow had to break that leg bone, but all three were dead within 50 yds.
Big Nine? In another thread you made the comment regarding the Wasp Jackhammer BH's "To me they are the best head I have ever used...I love them...I they work extremely well and I have no reason to ever change!" Would these be the mystery BH's you are using?
"One thing I share with BB, other than good looks and shot placement"
Don't forget he's the #1 supporter of "Snuffers" and you are the #1 seller....:)
Woody, I have read past post of your extreme success shooting through shoulders,scapula.I haven't shared that same success
If going through the posterior third of the lungs instead of a heart shot is the trade off,I'm still puzzled as the the benefit of flirting with shoulders and their dynamics.
Alot has been said about blade sharpness and in the 5 times I have had this same scenario the deer bedded early as to slow the pump down and kept their head up for 10-20 minutes.One would go back and forth on it'ss back like a dog scratching his back,very odd.One mule deer buck was shot twice!All were with razor sharp, right out of the pack, boadheads.First shot liver/right lung.Second shot double lung.He walked (not humped up)for 20 yards and bedded for 20 mnutes with his head up.His running buddy even came back and stood by his fallen comrade as I glassed him.It can sure happen with sharp broadheads.
"Big Nine? In another thread you made the comment regarding the Wasp Jackhammer BH's "To me they are the best head I have ever used...I love them...I they work extremely well and I have no reason to ever change!" Would these be the mystery BH's you are using?"
NO, in this thread he stated feeling foolish for NOT using jackhammers.
Big nine wrote his comment last Tuesday say " I tried this head for the very first time and it is an extremely accurate head.....100 grians with a 1 1/8" cutting diameter.....needless to say I will never use them again although I think the broadhead ultimately performed what it was capapable of....I feel very strongly if I would of used my 1 3/4" 100 grain Jackhammer on this deer it would not of made it past 20 seconds. I have amazing luck with the Jackhammers over the last five years and feel foolish for trying anything else....."
You kept everyone mystery in dark about what kind of BH you had shot at doe? Don't worry about felt foolish, It was happened to every hunter's nightmare mistake. Come on, swallowed your pride and Be Man! tell them that what kind your bh used to shot and mystery will ending! Trykon
Glad you found the deer, congrats. I think the reason you had a little trouble is because she was quartering towards you when you shot. Glad it all turned out well though. I agree with the person who said you are better off to shoot them straight up the leg on a broadside shot. After hunting in Africa, where if you DON'T shoot them straight up the leg they are gutshot, I started shooting deer that way. It double lungs them everytime. Behind the shoulder just leaves too little a margin of error in my opinion.
i dont think hes gonna tell us!
that was no muzzy that is for sure...
I THINK I HAVE FOUND THE VOID!!!!!
So that's where the void is. No wonder I keep losing those deer.
now here i a good exit wound from a tree stand and of cource yah gotta look at my mug!lol They sure love to find the nastiest thorniest spots to go dont they this one went straight into a forest of thorn bushes!ouch G5 tekan2 with extra cut blades is the broadhead that did this.
How do you know that the expandable opened fully on entry, and not on exit?
After stuyding BigNine's pic's here is something I noticed:
Entrance wound is not 1 1/8"..not good.
Heart wound looks as if the BH was still opening and pushed through, in other words it was not cutting with max effect...not good.
It's quite apparent the blades did not open and I beleive this is the reason more so for the lack of blood then blade sharpness and shot placement. IMO, one of the reasons a prefer a fixed type BH, same entrance and exit hole, cutting properly all the way through.
As far as shot placement, it was good considering he felt it was broadside, even if the deer wasn't, the BH did not perform as well as it could have.
BigNine, on broadside shots I would aim a bit lower, that would keep you inline with the true center of the chest cavity. BB likes to aim closer to the shoulder, thats a great shot, but what he's actually having one do is aim closer to center of the vitals.
Shooting from a tree stand many hunters truely misjudge center of the vitals, thats why aiming for a spot right up the leg vs aiming behind (broadside shot)will put the arrow center vitals which increases the chance of hitting more blood vessels. Since the further away from the heart less blood vessels means longer a deer will travel on average.
Informative thread.
SHe could have been dead broadside when you shot, but:
she could have spun a bit after you shot, or
arrow could have changed angle of direction slightly due to expandable hitting rib. I've had this happen when I was using Spitfires and a compound almost 10 years ago. The unsupported back of the blade tends to bounce the head sideways at times. Less likely to happen with a fixed blade.
Well, my second point may prove I don't know what I'm talking about...
A car with lots of suspension travel is less likely to "bounce steer" when striking a rock in the road than a car without any. SO maybe expandables are less likely to change direction of travel than are fixed blades.
Much like that broahead someone desinged a couple years back out of razor sharp wire....supposedly collapses around bone and stuff.
My first guess before I realized he said it was another Mech head, was the original Muzzy heads. 1" cutting diameter, and I never liked the performance.
But....My second guess knowing that it was a mech head...the original Rocket Steelhead 100gr:^)))
Think about the small entry and exit holes. The doe was submerged overnite. I would bet that the water caused the holes to close up a bit so they do not look like the usual entry-exit holes.
My commendations b9, on your diligent efforts to follow up and recover the doe.
This is a good thread. After following it for a few days, I'll add a couple observations. I offer these with all due respect and strictly under the theme of learning:
After an incident such as this (difficult recovery), we as archery hunters will almost always look for an equipment scapegoat....anything to blame other than ourselves. That's human nature I guess. "Musta' been the broadhead (or the peep, or the rest, or the shaft, etc, etc.), cause there's no way I screwed up". Then we want others to assure us that we are correct, that we "did good" in spite of the marginal results.
The reality for these type of incidents (and we've all experienced them), is that our own skill level, or knowledge, or decision-making are usually the true root cause.
Best course of action is swallow that pride and learn from our mistakes. Most notable to this case is the issue of shot placement. I believe if we'd all follow BB's advice, we'd see shorter blood trails and fewer of these type threads.
I know for me personally I'm asking myself this question: if faced with that same shot scenario (broadside to slight quartering-to), where will I aim? Answer: in the center of the delta-shaped area formed by the front leg bone. Very close to the dot shown BB's photo above. Then it won't matter what broadhead brand I'm using.
Like I said....with all due respect and strictly in the spirit of learning.
Good hunting to all!
BB you are one of the treasures of this site and forgot more about bowhunting than I will ever know.
..... BUT I can't agree with you on the forward shot placement deal because IMO it brings both the leg bones and scapula into play. If the deer "ducks" the string or if you are off a little high you will likely hit one or the other.
I have hit the scapula on a deer and it ain't a good deal.
I'm gonna keep my shots low and a little behind the shoulder. If I do my part, this hasn't failed me yet.
the answer is the entrance wound was the same size!Anyway i shoot slick trick 100 grn mags now.put the mechs away time to try something wicked.
I respect BB's opinion and always make it a point to read his posts. However, I tend to aim back from his desired point of impact. Mainly due to the fact that if I hit bone I more than likely will have a major problem on my hands and more times than not will lack the penetration to make the kill. Now if I put it back and it hits anywhere between the front and rear legs. I will find the deer almost every time. Now if I could make a perfect shoot everytime guaranteed, I would opt for BB's shot. I am not perfect. Being cold in a treestand does not help, so I feel I need the room for error.
Since switching to 1 3/4 Jaks blood trailing has gotten a lot easier. I also am big on the 1 3/4 Grim Reapers.
My brother made a very similar shot last year on a 3 1/2 year old buck that did not bleed and took us a long, long time to find.
His broadhead was a tekan 2. He no longer shoots that head.
Congratulations on finding your deer Big 9. Job well done.
What kind of broadhead was it again???....lol...
On the ground, I hold exactly where BB pointed out. From a treestand, I drop back a bit.
Breaking news..... After much waiting and anticipation the mystery BH is still and forever will be a mystery. LOL! But at least he found it.
Big Nine, Glad you recovered her, thats what counts.
(knock)(knock)(deep voice answered) Who is there? (nervous voice) This is Big Nine! (gruffy voice) What you want from me? (low tiny voice) I am selling you dull BH for nickel! Trykon
I think the position of the deers leg(forward or back) has a lot to do with shot placement and is sometimes not considered.If a deers leg is back and you shoot 3-4 inches behind the shoulder you can wind up with a liver shot/one lung hit depending on the angles.If the leg is forward then you have a bit more leeway.I like to follow the leg up and shoot tight to it if the leg is back and maybe 2 inches back if the leg is forward.Nice job on finding the deer.
CB
I agree that the broadhead did not perform or was too dull, probably the latter. I am not basing this on the size of the hole, it is in a good area that contains a lot of blood vessels. A very sharp broadhead would have cut enough arteries that this deer would have expired sooner rather than later, even with the hole. It was said b4, dull blades will just push arteries/veins out of the way and not cut them.
SPEEDBOW20, the void you illustrated is the one I have the most trouble with!! LOL!
My son BB'd this one this morning. The doe went about 55 yards after the shot (surprisingly, the blood trail was very sketchy, though both the entry and exit were good holes). The arrow passed pretty tight ehind the leg bone on both sides, and when she ran she snapped it in two. The broadhead half was right where the shot happened, the fletch half flew about 5 yards ahead-
I am with Genesis on this one. I for one do not like to shoot around thick bones. If you misjudge the yardage you are in the knuckle or shoulder blade. Not very good for penetration for sure. I have always chosen the high lung entry from a tree stand for most of my days. The trail will always lead to a dead deer if you can track.
ckc
