Discuss our Semi-Live Montana Elk Hunt
Elk
Well i hope you get your bags soon Pat good luck!!!!
I'm at a loss. I hope they get their act together... At least it can't get any worse right?
I'm at a loss. I hope they get their act together... At least it can't get any worse right?
I feel your pain!! Every time I fly to Texas for a hunt,, thru Northwest, not only myself, but others from around the county have had lost/damaged bags and gun cases!
I just hope they find your bags alot sooner then they did mine, I was out for 2 1/2 weeks.
I suggest you fly into Bozeman next time. At least you will be a lot closer to Yellowstone if your luggage doesn't show up again.
There are several LARGE black bears that hang out at the ranch and an occasional moose too. Mike doesn't want you to shoot the bears though.
Sorry Pat for your PAIN! I wish you The Best!!
You might have been better overnighting your bags fed ex. LOL!
Pat tell Jerry I said hello. Good seeing he's still alive and well. :)
One has to think the elk curse has taken on a new twist, and soon we will see a new update:
Mr. P.L. posing over a 300+ bull while wearing moccasins purchased at a near by souvenir shop :-)
Things can only get better
Well, you just know if Pat is chasing Elk, something HAS gotta go haywire....GOOD LUCK !! .....Jeff
That stinks! Well....no better time than now to show just how much gear "isn't" required to hunt successfully:^) Good luck!
Pat I feel your pain...flew on Delta to Florida with my family this summer. They lost 1 of our bags (July 14th) its now October 1st and we still don't have the bag or any reimbursement for it.
Just the run around and over $1000 worth of lost clothes and luggage.
There's just no damn recourse!
Good Luck!
Pat, what the old saying, if it wasn't for bad luck you would have any luck at all. Mike
Hey Pat I'm just over the mountain from ya,if ya need anything PM.
Thats sucks about the airlines.Good luck. BBJ
This is precisely why I've driven to all but two of the hunts I've ever done. I don't trust the airlines with my luggage on the way to the hunt, nor do I trust them with my meat and trophy on the return.
Yeah, I know that driving from CT to MT isn't practical, but driving does eliminate the problem.
Good luck on the elk Pat!!! They didn't have a whiffle bat for a bugle tube? The Rhynard Ranch looks fantastic!!
Delta lost my gear bag on a waterfowl trip to Alberta once. Since then I wear a good pair of boots when I fly for a hunt, and pack some hunting clothes in my carry-on, just in case. It's a pain going through security but it's worth it.
Douglas Steenland President and Chief Executive Officer Northwest Airlines Corporation
I'd be composing a very "appropriate" letter to Mr. Steenland outlining what happened.
FYI, one time I actually got to talk to the President of an airline by guessing at his e-mail address based on other employee's e-mail syntax. My friend had a problem with a free ticket and getting nowhere with customer service (for days). 5 minutes after talking to the Pres. it was resolved. Imagine that.
I'd start with:
[email protected]
[email protected]
"Yeah, I know that driving from CT to MT isn't practical,"
IT'S more practical than losing 2-3 days of a week long hunt.
my question is when does the obligatory snake show up in this story.
Bou'bound,
No kidding. That's why I've driven 1,800 miles each way to northern BC on hunts. Twice!
Wow I wish I would have known about your dilemna Pat. I live in Helena and would have been happy to loan you whatever you needed. I am a first year Elk hunter but I have everything that a guy would need. If theres anything I can do to help please e-mail me.
kyle -
Boston to Durango non-stop 36 hours one person 2200 miles. i did not lose my gear or meat.
Just drove 23 1/2 hours one way,straight through to Colorado myself.
Flew to MT last week so went non-stop to Jax-hole WY then drove the 3 1/2 hours to 3 forks.I eneded up having 19 hours of travel time,I could have almost drove it straight for only 5 hours more.
Security beat the crap out of our bow cases........
I'm doing AK next and yes I will be driving to the bush plane dock........it's getting rediculous.
Just realized if I was on a hunt far from home and was in desperate need of something, all I need to do is get on the internet and I'm sure I would have no less than a dozen bowsiters in the area willing to help.
that was a nice offer from BareBack Jack but if it were me, I'd be a little hesitant to accept help from someone that goes by that - no offense, just poking (no pun intended) fun :)
i could see going into a small town in Montana, walking into the local watering hole and asking "I'm looking for Bareback Jack"....
LOL
Good luck on the hunt, i mean elk hunt.
I made it from Denver to Boston in 27 hours...alone. I broke a few speed limits though.
OMG that's horrible. Best of luck the rest of the week, Pat.
I forsee a picture of Pat's feet with numerous blisters! Buy the good stuff and write it off as a business expense. (Just a thought)
Darn, that stinks Pat, I hope you turn it around and get an elk.
Got to love that Tube, I am still laughing when I think about the picture and the blue plunger. Classic!
I bought a new aluminum double bow case this season after seeing what the airlines did to my bow and case last season on my way to KS. I ended up with 3 broken arrows and a bent sight guard. For those of you that dont know this, most bow/gun cases are not FAA certified. What this means is if the airlines damages your bow/gun, its not at their expense! Spend the money on a quality case guys.
Man, I really feel for ya, Pat! That stinks!
But I think i'da spent a little more than 44$ on my feet! I remember losin' 2 toenails in N. Quebec and that was from a good pair of Rocky's! Can't imagine what those walmart specials would do! OUCH!!!!!!!
DOn;t think I wouild let my gear out of my sight, after this!
Hope tomorrow gets better!
home depot or similar, schedule 40 abs black pipe. doubles for raking trees.
I flew on Delta from Montgomery AL to Helena MT on Sept 22nd. For some reason (they were tagged correctly at the desk, I checked) my camo bow case was sent to Savannah GA. It came in the next night and I picked it up around 10:00PM. Seems very fishy that hunting stuff gets lost so easy.
I hunt out West every year and I always send my gear ahead, 3rd day UPS.
Worst I've ever had is a day late, and that means they refund my shipping charges.
I hunt out West every year and I always send my gear ahead, 3rd day UPS.
Worst I've ever had is a day late, and that means they refund my shipping charges.
Sorry to hear about your luck. I will have to say thanks for the laugh with the bugle though. Kinda got tickled when I read that it was a plunger. Just think of the endorsements from the plunger company if you tag a record bull. Don't call your bull in, plunge him in with the new, plung-o-matic bugle call, endorsed and perfected by Pat Lefemine.
Good Luck, Rob
"Seems very fishy that hunting stuff gets lost so easy."
WOnder if it's ANTI's trying to sagatoge the hunt?!
looks like you were rugging it.
With all the problems with airlines don't take a chance. Fed X the week before. 100$+ but well worth it. Be careful with UPS. They can be as bad as airlines.
In this case I just think it's Northwest at their worst (why I call them Northworst).
There was an account of a baggage booboo by same carrier on an African hunt. So I think a lot of it is just Northworst's terrible baggage handling.
As far as antis, yes I am sure they are employed by all airlines not just Northworst. At the checkin counter in Denver this year(Northworst), I would've been able to ship my antlers no charge if it were up to 3 of the 4 ticket agents, who were just tickled to death to see a set of elk antlers. But evidently the B#$@h I got had PMS or was anti, because she said no, they had to charge me $80 for oversize luggage. I wanted to argue but I also wanted to get home so I paid up and sent Northworst a nastygram (which I haven't heard back from yet) when I got home.
Years ago I got a guy at United in Boise Idaho who was going to call security on me because I objected to him designating my coolers as oversize, when I had shipped them out with me no questions asked. I felt he was an anti too, but at 6AM and looking ahead to a full day of flying I just wanted to get home. So I let it slide and sent United a nastygram when I got home (which I still haven't been responded to about).
Some people at the airlines can be great; then there's that 10% who just don't get along with anybody, especially hunters.
"Beam me up, Scotty". Good luck and hunting hard after ELK! Trykon
I drive. 30 hours from Bend Or to Mayhill NM.
On the news tonite(NBC5 Chicago) a report was saying this was the worst year for lost baggage in the airlines industry......DUH !! :0) ....Jeff
The two times I did fly, I took special care with my bags.
On my AK Dall sheep hunt, I flew First Class on United and they were awesome. They gave me very personal service when I checked in both times. When I returned home, the first two bags down the chute at baggage claim were mine!
Last year I flew to a whitetail hunt in WI. But I sent most of my stuff ahead via Fed Ex.
Bozeman is where Schnees (sp) has a store front. They have all kind of boots and clothing including Sitka gear. And if anyone gets by Threeforks, west of Bozman, there is a store run by Wheat Montana where you can buy the best baked goods anywhere.
Pat
2004 muzzleloader hunt to CO.-Bradley airport,they broke it off on me because of a problem with the lock on my case.Almost missed the flight.O'Hare airport-I was called to the front of the plane to be questioned by the pilot about having the word weapon next to my name on the manifest.This in front of other passengers.When I finally arrived in CO.,you guessed it,no gun!Luckly I only missed one day of my hunt. I'm glad your sharing this hunt with us and I hope things get better for you. Love the grunt tube!You should get a patent!
Hey Kurve this ain't Wyoming LOL
PS. You Wyoming boys got a bad rap after that movie.
BBJ
I hate Northwest. I drove the 17 hours to CO solo this year just because I feared your exact situation.
Best of luck on your hunt!
-Ben
Man...My hat is off to you...what you're going through only shows dedication.
making a bull bugle from a toilet plunger..now that's thinking on the fly!
hope all works out.
And to repeat what others have said:
Northwest sucks, and if you pass through their Minneapolis hub, and you have identifiable hunting gear, prepare to get it F-ed with!
Sounds like the perfect start to a trip where you will take the bull of your dreams. Best part is he will come running in on one bugle from the super resonator grunt tube you have fashioned. Now forget the camera equipment and you'd surely drop a world record. Good luck Pat.
New to this site and love it.
I have flown NW for years but I won't any more. They lost my luggage on my last business trip and it showed up 2 weeks later with not even an apology.
I'd can those boots and get some decent high top shoes/hikers and be done with it.
Pat, if you use the words you want on this site, will "You" loose a star? Best of luck.
Pat, I know this sucks, but you've been blessed and you have that drive so if anyone can overcome this it's you.
Make the best of it...have fun..and kill a MONSTER elk.
Well, I guess I see this at an different angle. First, I doubt NWA lost the baggage intentionally. Secondly, that is the chance you take anytime you get on a plane. Third, a grunt tube would be on the bottom of my priority list in this situation. A simple reed alone will call in any size bull elk. I would have bought a knife and headlamp first. JMO.
One day this will all be a big laugh around a fire and the icing on the cake will be that with only bare essentials you and I won't say it so as not to jinx you but you know the ending. Also thanks for descriptions it made me chuckle get some underwear OK LMAO
good luck
have to ask a few things.....
first off, you have all your reeds right? if you do....you'll be fine without the tube.
secondly......a good pair of hightop leather sneakers will work out better than those pos you have there.
and lastly....buy a light and a knife. for gods sake, you probably already own 15 of them back home anyway.....what's 16.
oh yea....don't they sell underwear at walmart......or is this a lucky pair you have to keep rewearing daily...lol
good luck to you my good man. keep at it, and all will work out however it works out.
serb
I flew Northwest this summer. Outgoing flight delayed and canceled, return flight, from their hub in Minneapolis, had no crew available so I took a Greyhound bus home. I still haven't seen a refund or been sent at least a token letter. I will never fly them again, along with British Airways, but that is another story. I feel for you Pat.
Yea the airlines (like all services) make mistakes, chance we all take. Like your Caribou article on expecting the heard to show up. Of course expecting your baggage to show up is not quite the same. However, the hand written tags were the red flag. Should have backed out and taken them to DSL or Fed X right then and there. Anyway, who cares if you run around naked in camp Shangri-La. What a beautiful cabin that you can walk out the door and hunt. Your killing us. It would be different if you were packing in for a few days. The key is, get the gear you need in the field. Serb is right, get a good pair of high top leather basket ball shoes, no break-in needed and your feet won't feal like they were beat with a ball peen hammer at the end of the day. That toilet plunger sounds fine, besides, if they are screaming you can stalk in for the shot if they don't want to leave the cows to come to you. Or, get as close to the herd as you can, have the camera man cow call sparingly from 50 yards back and hope one of bigger satellites come for a look see.
'Herman' Survivors---can't be all bad Pat! (*;
At least you got your "Bow"! Please don't show us any nudey pictures....I don't think the 'bow hunters' could handle that! Isn't life just grand at times?
Good Luck sticking a Monster Bull Elk!!
Was this a Semi Live or Semi nude Elk hunt? LOL! Good luck Pat!
Sounds like Pat's elk curse is still around...8*)
LMAO not at you PAT but these guys are funny. Semi nude hunt ROFLMAO!!!
by the way, my name is Mr. Cane and I really like my new stuff. The trick is you go down to Northwest airlines hang around the baggage area and help yourself. Apparently I missed out on some bow gear oh well next time. See you on the return flight PAT what did you buy for me new?
LMAO I think I'm funny yuk yuk yuk
I normally do not respond to the live hunt discussions, but this time I have too! AWESOME pictures! unreal, worthy of framing and hanging in the living room. Good job.
Loosing bags sucks, I am very very carefull with my money - but I think you went way to far to save $1000. You should have hit the stores ASAP stocked up and gone, figure out what your elk hunt is worth to you, add in tag cost, hunt cost, airfare, time away from family and kids etc. Buying another $1000 worth of gear is nothing. Not to mention much of it you will need again someday when gear breaks or gets worn out. Also it is easy to resell it at only a slight loss. I bet you could sell the $1000 worth of gear for $750, easily, clothing you keep since it wears out. Boots = suck, not broken in, but smartwool socks (or wally world equivalent) should get you through. Moleskin too. So why waste a hunting day to MAYBE save $250? My thoughts.
I ALWAYS have my gear list - and it is broken down to what goes into my daypack, spike camp etc. That way when I am there I can check my list to be sure I have everything packed I need to dayhunt or spike camp.
I also take my gear list on the plane with me so it cannot get lost, along with notes/books/regs to review. With a list in hand it is easy to get everything you need (although I admit boxers in one thing I very nearly overlook every year).
Just some ideas. I know you have 100 times my experiance - but everyone has ideas that most have not thought of that can help make a trip go right.
I am very amused at the bugle tube, and, I have lost mine or dropped it in the excitement of a hunt and had to bugle without it, no problem. Obviously it sounds better but I have had no problems bugling without it.
We pack our boots and one pair of our favorite camo in our nap sack and take it as our carry on along with our GPS, range finder and other stuff we feel we can't live without. It adds a little hassle/weight to the flight out but at least you know you have your best stuff with you. I even had to carry my boots as my second carry on this year.
Pat, very sorry about the mess with the airlines, that would take the wind out of my sails in no time. Can we assume that you will NEVER be flying Northwest Airlines again? Please tell me yes....?
By the way, a little TOO MUCH information with regards to your sleeping attire (or UNattire)!
Last but not least, the toilet plunger bugle tube is an instant classic and must net you the prize for most "creative improvisation in elk camp" of the year award!
Joshua
We pack our boots and one pair of our favorite camo in our nap sack and take it as our carry on along with our GPS, range finder and other stuff we feel we can't live without. It adds a little hassle/weight to the flight out but at least you know you have your best stuff with you. I even had to carry my boots as my second carry on this year.
Just got back from an ID trip flying Northwest, while we had problems, none were NW related, tornado warnings in Minneapolis caused us to sleep in the airport after a bus ride from another airport due to pilots being over the FAA flight hour rules. Howeve our luggage somehow showed up on the flight we were rebooked on, thank God!
BTW Pat, 3 inch PVC pipe around 10-12 inches long makes a good bugle tube as well!
Warm Springs Creek is an incredible fishery - if you get a chance you should throw a hopper on and have some trout for dinner one night.
Yeah Pat, I imagine while you could just go hunt in whatever manner is afforded. Your intent to film and whatnot can't be realized without the gear still in transit.
Well.....good luck either way. And we'll settle for a still-shot of you and your elk in the end. Just enjoy your hunt as much as possible:^)
Pat, I feel your pain as well. I have had my luggage lost more times than I care to recall all on Northwest. Never anything as important as hunting gear though. Hey rather than chance ruining your feet in those boots perhaps if you can get a pair of trail running shoes. I've done alot of hunting anf out west hiking in those. Might just be better for your feet. MO
Okay - you lost some stuff.
You are in MT in Oct on a private ranch while most of us are sitting at our computers. You have some of the most beautiful sunrise/sunsets I can imagine. You get to spend your nights in a cabin. There are elk running and bugling all around you. Make day 4-?? not about Northworst and make some memories.
Time to start working on that next mug of lemonaid. Good luck and make sure you take a huge sniff of that wonderful mountain air before you fly back to the east - it has to last till next fall.
The airlines make it absolutely clear on what they want and what they charge and what they expect from you as a passenger.
OK, Now it's my turn...............
I pay them for a service. I expect to be treated like a human being, not a pawn, or a number, or a piece of dirt.
I expect for them to deliver me to my destination in a safe and "TIMELY" manner, that means on time! not due to snow storms. When you can't find someone to fly the plane, that's not my problem. When you overbook a flight and it's late, that's not my problem.
I also expect my luggage to arrive at my destination in the shape it was when I checked it in. Not bashed and lost whith no reason why.
This is what I EXPECT AS YOUR CUSTOMER!!! Quit the excuses and FIX your problems!
The airlines are out of control and nothing will change except for people to vent their anger towards the proper authorities. I like most are tired of hearing everything that's wrong with the airlines, blamed on 9/11. It's getting old.....
I try to wear my hunting boots, or hunting shoes (I wear shoes most of the time) on the plane with me to make best use of weight/luggage.
Just like you pat I used my additional carry on item for stuff this (was a camcorder case I added other stuff to).
Also just like you there are lots of things I can live without, but it would suck. I want to hunt 100% efficent and that does not mean new boots, new bow (lucky there) new calls, new everything, would make me crazy. Familiarity with all your gear is important IMO.
I have worried about this happening to me, I talked with a guy once who stopped in the drive to CO to hunt elk at wally world, come out truck, guns, camping gear and hunting gear all GONE. Had to get a new rifle, clothes, tent etc. Yikes.
I usually fly continental and have had 0 problems, but I fly only 1-2 times per year, they have been very nice to me as a hunter, every year when I fly home with a cooler or meat they exitedly ask me what I got and how I did, even though I know they are not hunters and could care less. I am thrilled with Continental.
Take care DonV ohio, how much longer until next sept? aaarrrggghh to long.
Again those yellowstone pics were simply awesome. I will get a WY tag within 1-2 years and plan to hit yellowstone for the first time cannot wait.
Since technology these days is so great there GPS tags you can attach to your luggage. It is receiver and you turn it on before you leave your baggage and turn it off when you receive the item back. The tracking is done o your computer and you can tell where your stuff is by logging on. It will tell what city, street and block or address your stuff is at 24 hrs per day or until the batteries run out. Not cheap but you will never lose your stuff again. Its used on cars presently and soon convicted criminals with high risk as an ankle bracelet. They are not small but thrown into a bag is ok. So you log in and tell the airline that your luggage is here or there and tell them to go get it. Never had to use it but I have heard blogs that say the airlines are blown away when you have the tracking advice, They have no choice but to do as you say.
Between this story and the guy who went to Africa, I'm going to do everything I can to avoid NW from now on.
I bet they never thought their brush off would turn into this much negative publicity huh?
BTW - love the grunt tube!!!!!! If you call in the world record elk with a plunger Primos will be making one next year. LOL!!
Pat,
My office is in Minneapolis and 10 minutes from the terminal.
Maybe too little too late but I'm willing to help you out if there's something that can be done from here.
I've flown that flight to Helena on NW, which has been a daily direct for many years.
PM me if needed.
Bugle tip: Cutting that bugle down to 6" to 8" of the narrow section is a terrific excuse to discover that's all anyone using a diaphragm needs.
This is one of the worst things I have read. I really feel for you. I really hope you find one bull that is ready to make a mistake and you can whack him.
Looks like an awesome place to hunt, awesome accomodations too.
Pat.... We, Bowhunters are on your side when you have been through tough times with lost luggages but you still got "girlfriend" bow case important! forget Northwest problem and will solve later, LET'S FOCUS on your dream "Montana Elk" and after Big Bull! Trykon
Pat,
Next time, wear your boots on the plane. If you normally take two bows, ship one ahead 2 weeks in advance. Third, turn your underwear inside out, they'll last twice as long (couldn't resist).
Jake
I don't currently fly as much as Pat but have been business flying for 30 years. Northwest Airlines has consistently the worst employee morale in the industry. I am careful to avoid them just because of the bad attitude flowing from most of their people.
I remember it really getting pronounced when they bought Republic airlines over 20 years ago. Never got better.
Reminds me of the "Dirty Jobs" episode where Mike was working with the baggage handlers at the airport. In the back room, staring at the piles of luggage on the conveyors getting put on different carts for different planes and he said "I use to wonder how anything could go wrong, but now seeing this, I wonder how anything can go right."
Glad you got your stuff, Pat. I'm flying out (on United) for a cow hunt in AZ day after tomorrow, and I hope your bad mojo doesn't rub off on me! So far, this has been the best season of my life and I hope to keep the ball rolling. I'vetaken my biggest mulie to date (a mosest 4 point in the low 120's, I'm guessing) and my 13 year old son took his first deer (white tail doe)with a well-placed Muzzy saturday morning. I've been on cloud nine, until reading about your troubles.
Hopefully, Kharma owes you one now- looking forward to hearing about you sticking one. Here's a picture of my kid- for for good luck, Pat.
Glad to hear you got your stuff back!
Go out and put the hurt on one of those 300+ bulls tomorrow, I'm getting excited to see pictures!!
Ive learned the hard way just like u Pat . What i do is fly a day or two early to allow for this , notice going home i never had a problem with my gear Good Luck may youre arrow find its mark Louis
I'm sure the ranch and country is fist class. I also "completely" understand that you hunt where the elk are. Aside from the amazing misfortune of the luggage episode, there is one question that keeps jumping out at me here. "Why do you need to keep fighting with that property line"?? Are the elk "that" concentrated there? You have to hunt where the game is, that's for sure. But that boundary sure must be getting frustrating. Anyhow, I'm believing your next post is gonna be with some pics of a "happy man".... The good part's commin'... K-2
I'm thinkin' you've gotta be gettin' wet over there. I'm getting soaked here in N.W. Montana. My rut activity is deffinately on the down hill slide too. K-2
I was thinking the same thing. Raining in the Bitterroot too this morning.
Glad to hear your stuff showed up Pat. Sounds like you guys have a good plan. Hope this is the beginning of the end of the curse!!!
Way to nice a place to stay for an unguided elk hunt.
Get out there and camp in the wilds and live a little! lol!
Northworst airlines suk!
BTW....how did the "grunt tube" sound? and I like my Herman Survivors!
Did you have trip insurance?
Sorry...I couldn't resist.
Man, if I do fly it's a direct flight, no plane changes give them less of a chance at losing something...
The bugle tube is classic. I think you need to start selling them on Bowsite. Damm thats funny.
GL to you.
K-2, he's on a small ranch with limited access to FS land. The adjacent pvt land he can't hunt.
Pat,
I know what you are feeling, I hiked to the head of 4 mile creek 3 years ago on what I thought would be a footpath. ATV tracks were everywhere but the elk had been run off. Never saw anybody riding them but they had sure been there. Even on top of Elk peak they had rode them all over the place. DUMB A-holes! Goodluck!!
Pat, I hope the MF'ers that rode those ATV's in there are fried. In case there is any doubt, I am an ATV Nazi (to use Pat's words)!
That drives me freak'in nuts.
Good luck on the rest of your hunt.
Seems like running into this problems here in CO (Misuse of ATV's Off of designated Trails and roads) is more the norm than just a few lazy people anymore.
They are great, and a nice tool for riding the jeep trails and getting around rather than beating your vehicle to death.
But the tell tale ATV tracks like in your photos are clearly Misuse and Eventually hopefully we get some enforcement or legislation (such as confiscation or fines large enough) that these yahoos keep them where they should be, and not following or creating more ATV trails.
L I B - Y lookey thar JoeBob I thinks that'd be a good place to camp right thar...let's ride in and setup a wall tent in that thar meado.
Nail the sonsabitches. I do think that back home in MT it is only a 100$ fine for driving off road on forest property.
You are pretty hosed at this point now for finding elk. Welcome to hunting the hard way. Bet my right arm that those good ole law breakin 4-wheeler riders are also tresspassing onto both Mike's place and the other private ground the elk are on.
Man Pat - I almost feel sorry for you....I am on an elk dry streak too.
Never fails, you hike your butt off to get to what looks great on the maps and you find atv tracks. Some folks just don't get it.
One word "Wilderness", no motor vehicles allowed. I know that is not 100% fool proof, because there are fools that think they are above the law. However, it is better then open range NF where there is a discouraging word and the atv's roam all day.
I feel your pain Pat!
This situation is becoming worse and worse every year. In Arizona we have been lucky. We have been spared much of the scorn of the Forest Service and their attempts to close the FS lands to cross country travel to retrieve legally killed big game. Same goes on our state land. The blatant and rampant mis-use of ATV's is now ruining the last of our freedom.
I normally am one of the biggest advocates for public access with OHVs (Off Highway Vehicle - 4 wheel drive truck, SUV, Quad, Side by Side, motorcycle, whatever), however the example you shared with us today is just one of many that has begun to change my mind. I am sick of trying to hunt areas that others with elk tags treat as a time and place to go on an ATV vacation. Again, I'm usually one of the first guys pounding my fist on the table in opposition to new wilderness, because I honestly believe that you can't write good wilderness legislation that will stand up to the scrutiny of all, once the ones that sat at the table to negotiate such legislation, are long gone. What one manager interprets as a legal activity one day, may just be the worst thing in the world to the next.
Anyways, I feel for you. Sorry to say, but your curse looks to be continued.
Go high, go steep, go hard and get as far away from those things as you can.
Best of luck and thanks for all your great reports and pictures.
Nick
I enjoy reading these reports and have never posted. But I will say this Welcome to hunting USFS land. Now maybe some of you folks from back east can understand why atv's are hated. And I can show you atv tracks in wilderness areas.
Unbelievable. I am from NW MT and I will say I am sorry you are having such a crappy time hunting here. That is not the experience I want non-residents to have. Those bastages better be legal, if not I hope they burn them down. You aren't supposed to leave established roads on ATVs.
The brush in this part of the state is a curse, but I can see its also a blessing when I see this type of BS. They could never get a 4-wheeler into the places I hunt here.
Sorry dude.
Wow what a bunch of crap Pat. Sorry to hear how things have gone from bad to worse. On the other hand I am a glass half full kinda guy and there would be nothing cooler than to break your elk curse in the face of great adversity. I know it is hard to remember when you are out there in deep sh-t but the difference between a crappy elk hunt and an incredible experience you will never forget can take about 5 minutes. So try to keep a good attitude and keep working as hard as you can because it can all turn around on a dime!!! Good luck Pat, hopin you shoot a real toad!!!
.......if there was ever a doubt that the elk curse for pat was real.............
there are still two days left for more stuff to happen. be safe out there.
OUCH....I feel your pain! I hope the Game Warden and Forest Service confiscate the 'bikes' and fine the individuals severely and take away their licenses and what everr else they can take!.....isn't Bow Hunting FUN?
Can you imagine what the "Gun Season" is like?? (lol)
It's a relief when I hear that backwoods violators have been found out but no one wants it to be at the expense of their friends' or their own hunt. I hope some semi-live justice was served, Pat.
Man you are doing some hard hunting on these last 2 hunts. Your luck has not been very good. I too hate ATV's.
Good luck!
Pat
One of my favorite places to hunt in Maine (I used to hike in and see nobody )was opened up by some lazy sob with a atv who followed my line of bright eye tacks into where I hunt.At least two of the areas I hunt in Ct have been trashed by atv's.Iknow atvs have a place,but wrecking wild areas, stream beds and anothers outdoor expierence pisses me off.I hope you find a way to get away from these guys and get into what hunting is about.Good luck!
It's the bad apples like these guys that make ATV riders look bad. Stay on the trail or road!
ATV manufacturers flood hunting magazines, TV shows and sportsman conventions marketing there utility machines and more and more are being sold. It makes sense though with reports our children and adults are getting overweight and obese in record numbers, these machines enable the out of shape overweight hunter to access large tracts and mountainous areas.
The positive thing though is these machines also enable the older hunter or disabled to hunt farther back into large forests or for the hunter to retrieve and transport game. I know many of us with spine injuries/surgeries find these ATV's a useful tool in enjoying the sport.
Some pros and cons, though the ATV's in this article are definetally the negative example of ATV use on public land.
I would have slashed those ATV tires.
"This absolutely sucked. I have a first hand account of what you western guys have been talking about on Bowsite. Sure I knew it existed – but I never knew just how bad it had become."
So, now you believe us. It took this for you to now think that maybe we were not making it all up?
Pat,
Now you know why I despise ATVs. They're for the fat, lazy, out-of-shape slob hunters about 80% of the time. There are responsible ATV users, no question, and I commend them for that.
But the rest SHOULD STAY F'ING HOME!!!!
Hunted Wy unit 1 last year and it was a COMPLETE joke because of the ATV's. One guy told me he had 126 miles on in 1 1/2 days. Bow mounted on the front. 370 days later and I still can't figure out how in the hell you can bow hunt off of an ATV. Needless to say my hunt (walking my ass off to get away from the slobs) was crap. POS morons!!!!
Now, I know that alot of people, including me, use ATV's to do work and use around my property, but what happened there, and what I have seen from an incredible number of ATV vehicles is a complete disrespect for the wilderness, other people, and many times the vehicle they are on. So many lazy ass people who ruin things for the people who do it the right way. Now, like others have said, it would have been tempting to put an arrow into some of those tires to "sight in your bow", but I commend you for being the bigger and better person and taking documentation and turning them into the proper people. I truly hope this hunt turns out for the best. Going through this much adversity, and your career elk slump, I have a sneaking suspicion that the tides are going to turn for you in your last few days.
Good luck Pat!
Northwoods
One has to think that it's only a matter of time before things turn real ugly. Not saying on this hunt, but some one is going to blow a gasket.
I get the feeling that if Pat was to sit still for a better part of a day he could call in a few of those ATV drivers, I'd be willing to bet they'd come in riding their machine.
What shame.
Pat I'd run to walmart and get a case of roofing nails! ATV'S are a good tool when used in the right way. Man that just sucks. Hope you find a better spot tomorrow.
Gee Pat I don't know what to say. I know how har you worked. Sll the preperation you made to hunt this place and then to see that!!!
It wrenches my gut to see such abuse of such beautiful land not to mention ruining your hunt.
Please have Mike keep us posted as to what happens even if it's after you leave.
Keep the faith though and don't give up or let it change your mood.
Stay positive and keep that fire burning.
I have faith in you and Jerry.
Sound like another Semi-Live Debacle to me...
Pat, I really feel bad for you with the situation you encountered. I personally despise four-wheelers and this incident just cements my bias. I have no problem with legal uses of four-wheelers, but the lazy lard-asses and inconsiderate morons who use them seem to vastly outnumber the legitimate riders. Something drastic has to be done about irresponsible ATV use, and if that spoils it for everyone, so be it. I hope the violators you encountered on your hunt get nailed hard.
I am conviced that Satan uses a four-wheeler to get around in hell.
As stated earlier, I think the fine for illegal use of ATV's in Montana is $100 and they do not take the four wheeler. I heard from a local, that some carry a $100 bill in their pocket and just hand it to the officer when they are confronted. The last time I hunted in Montana, I packed in 4 miles into a roadless area. There was a couple of ATV's there too and the guys had to drive right around signs that said "Foot and horse tavel only"
Nothing is going to change until Montana puts some teeth into their ATV laws.
Pat: The bugle tube idea is ingenious. Let me know if you want to patent it. I can envision the advertisement now: "Get the Lefemine Bugle Tube - you can use it to bugle in a bull during the day and unstop your toilet at night!"
All BS aside, good luck and stay vigilant.
"The positive thing though is these machines also enable the older hunter or disabled to hunt farther back into large forests or for the hunter to retrieve and transport game. I know many of us with spine injuries/surgeries find these ATV's a useful tool in enjoying the sport."
Being older or disabled doesn't allow you to be irresponsible towards others and the land. If your physical abilities don't allow for it, too bad you were dealt those cards. Accept it and find something else to enjoy. My physical abilities don't allow me to play professional sports and I don't ask for someone to accommodate me in that regard - I found something else to do.
My Dad is almost 80 and has bad knees. He stopped hunting as a result and works in his wood shop now for enjoyment. Would I want him riding around on a 4 wheeler 'hunting', NO! Reality is he sucks it up for what it is and respects others in the process. He also realizes its not about him. That's the big difference with how people were and how they are today.
Eddie in Ct. said "The positive thing though is these machines also enable the older hunter"
And I say BS the older guy with any scrupals can't get away from those rotten things and the creetins who run them all over creation so he STAYS HOME! It is harder than it should be for a DIY Elk hunt out west I found this out over 10 years ago.
If you don't have the coin to hunt with a guy who leases several LARGE ranches or can horse pack you into the wilderness than you run an exelant chanse of getting RUN OVER by a knucklehead on an ATV in an ELKLESS forest!
I second what everyone else is saying! If you own and use an ATV do it within the rules and regulations! I personally hunt elk here in CO without and with an ATV. I just finished all or part of 20 days of the archery season and used my ATV one day to access an area on a marked trail. I shot my cow on the 20th day on the last weekend and packed her out. We were hunting wilderness areas where ATV's are not a problem. I am now looking forward to putting my ATV to use during the first rifle season in an area that is overrun with ATV's and everyone has one! I am not hunting from my ATV! And we will be dragging or quartering our elk as required to get them to a marked trail! BE RESPONSIBLE!
The ATV problem starts with the factories with their stupid dumb ass tv commerials showing ATV'S racing through the woods and blasting through trout streams . Atv's are the worst thing that has happened to hunting . I 'm 61 and when I'm too old to hunt I'll quit before I inconveince my fellow hunters with a ATV .
If you guys hate the ATV's then I suggest you write the White House, this administration is the one who is opening up more forest lands to snowmobiles, ATV's than any other in the past. Though, if you complain you might be labeled a tree hugger or liberal environmentalist so what side of the coin are you on? I guess it's a tuff choice to want to side with the tree hugger on kicking ATV's out.
Kurve, you are wrong in saying because someone has a disability it's too bad and he should find something else to do. Everyone has a right to enjoy the great sport of hunting and reasonable accomodations should be made for that person to be able to do it.
Pat- just following along on your hunt has sent my blood pressure through the roof- I'm so aggravated for you. If I were a betting person, I'd say that memories of "too short" and "sugar packet" came to mind when you found those machines up there.
-Cheryl
Eddie, I am not wrong. My point was VERY CLEAR that being old(er) or disabled does not give you the right to use ATV's irresponsibly.
Your problem is you see yourself as a victim.
Well this looks like a good place too start a little research on ATV's. I live in MN right now, but I'm planning on moving to northern ID within a year.
I'm looking to replace my backhoe (too big) with either a compact tractor or an ATV that can be used for hobby farming. I thought I had made up my mind to get the ATV becuase of the option of using it off my property when hunting. Here in MN seems everyone has an ATV and uses them out in the woods quite a bit for deer hunting.
I never had a use for one, I prefer to walk in the woods or use our horses. The horses are being sold as we don't use them enough to justify the expense (which is why I can sell the backhoe)
Now after reading this thread and doing a little research on the net, I'm starting to doubt how usefull an ATV would be out in the woods in ID. Would I be better off getting the compact tractor (which can do more work on the farm) or get an ATV that can do work on the farm and take off on the trails?
Don't want to start a huge debate or hijack this thread, just looking fo some input from some guys living where I want to live! :)
This is why I hunt in wilderness areas. I really sucked to read this, hope the hunt works out of you.
Everyone has a right to enjoy the great sport of hunting and reasonable accomodations should be made for that person to be able to do it.
Hunting is a priviledge,akin to Golf(remember Casey Martin?)
If one isn't in condition to hunt the mountains than we shouldn't lower the mountains for those individuals.The HUNT is about the mountains,it's challenges,etc.
Kurve, you are right on "one" thing, it does not give you a right to ride irresponsibly like the riders in this article did. Heavy fines and ORV confiscation should be established to stop the destruction of off trail use of ATV's, and I don't believe they belong on all lands like in Wilderness areas.
I have nothing against ATVs, just the guys that use them.
I've got one and I hate how people abuse property, whether it is private, state or federal. The youth is bad, but adults are usually the worst around where I live and it's farm country. We've got people riding all over as soon as the crops are out like they own everything. Not to bash people from the money pit that sits on the shore of Lake Michigan here in Il., but they are the worst around here.
It boils my blood to see what they done in the pictures of Pat's hunt. I agree with the others STIFFER penalties.
Steamin
"Hunting is a priviledge,akin to Golf(remember Casey Martin?)"
I also remember that only White men had the privilege to play golf in the past. I guess they made "reasonable accomodations" to allow blacks and woman in over the years. Back on topic, I was not saying that out of shape hunters should be allowed to use a machine to climb a mountain, I was pointing out the rights of the disabled!
I'm glad to see Pat had the smarts' to photograph the scene and the marker plates.
But you know what's going to happen to these guys?
Absolutely nothing. That is why there's this problem. Just ONE TIME I'd like to see the laws get enforced. The forest service is so underfunded that they got one guy patrolling ten mountain ranges. Without enforcement, the problem will only get worse.
I'll bet $1000 that nothing happens to these guys. Anyone care to take that bet?
This is unfortunate. If you have hunted in the west enough you know the feeling of hiking miles into an area with the anticipation of finding that honeyhole - only to find an ATV sitting there.
I had penciled this place in as a definite possibility for a future hunt since my brothers like to fish and I like to hunt elk. But, after reading yesterday's report, I'm not so sure.
I too side as an ATV Nazi. I would have been sorely tempted to knife several tires - on each amchine! I do recognize that they have some useful, legitimate uses. However, we run across them too many times in poor uses, unethical behavior. It only takes one bad usage to make someone against them for LIFE. perhaps more people who use them should read the threads of "10 weeks to September - How are you preparing" and the likes. There's even one of "11 months to September, how are you preparing?" Get off your backside and walk you lazy POS's.....
>>>>>------------------->
"I'm starting to doubt how useful an ATV would be out in the woods in ID." Rocky, after living and hunting in MT the past 10 years, I've never really understood it. I can think of very few USFS trails/roads where I hunt where ATVs are allowed and trucks are not. LEGAL use of an ATV in those areas might save wear and tear on your vehicle but not get you a foot farther or carry a pound more gear. You'll notice that the agencies recognize them as Off-Highway Vehicles rather than All-Terrain Vehicles these days in an attempt to emphasize that they're not allowed on all terrain.
Where the MFWP and USFS have worked on a local forest to allow for use of normally-closed spur roads for mid-day game retrieval, we continue to see ATVers putt-putting beyond or off the road to get to their kill site. As they say, give 'em enough rope and they'll hang themselves but unfortunately they'll be hanging the responsible users as well.
Asking the private landowner to hunt on his adjacent land is not an option???? Apparently not, and that must be frustrating. Hang in there Pat!
In N.M. I came across fresh atv tracks off the established roads. Never got a picture though. Right through the pretiest meadows to. I know its the rider and not the atv itself but I would be in favor of severe punishment of atv use if breaking the law. They do it cuase the conciquences are rediculous.
Pat I understand your frustration. But put the ATV thing behind you (you've documented it well and turn it over to the autorities). The worst days afield are always followed by the best. His plan for you is at work.
Welcome to the Castle and the Little Belt Mountains------ATV'Ers paradise.
The trick is to pick the biggest pice of land between trails and hunt it(90 % don't walk more than a 1/2 mile from their machine).
It sucks to think you have a place to your self and bust butt to hike and hunt it just to find a 4-wheeler or motorcycle there,but thats the Castle and the Little Belts(crazy's,big belts or any where else they can get away with it)
Adversity is how we chose to deal with it,don't let it ruin your hunt.
BBJ
Maybe the PR department for one of the ATV companies will pay the trespass fee for you to hunt the private property on the last day of your trip! It would be a good move for them since many thousands of people are seeing your frustration.
Pat, I think saying you were PO'd is putting it nicely. Hope the rest fo the hunt turned out well.
Pat,
It is unfortunate about the run-in with the ATVs. Now you know the EXACT FEELING that Virginia Bowhunters have when it comes to deer dogs.
Wish you better luck tomorrow.
Tony
I would be looking for their tracks on private land or catch them hunting on it. Then can nail their hides to the wall, instead of a piddly 100 doller fine. Hopefully the rancher and his neighbors can catch them. These kind of atvr's suck. And I also agree with some of the others just because old or sick should not get a lot of special treatment. Here in Arkansas on some of our wmas, there are special trails that you can ride an atv on if disabled but in my area once they flood the woods for duck hunting no more atvs, just boats. But boats and atvs don't bother deer near as much as they do elk.
Probably a bunch of airline baggage handlers out testing stuff to make sure it's all OK before returning it to their owners !
It's all about enforcement. Plain and simple. I use my atv in place of my truck. It's never been off road to pack an animal either. My NM bull died 100 yards from an atv trail ranchers use to get to their cattle tanks. We packed it out on our backs 1 1/2 miles to the truck. If it's illegal to ride off road or trail enforce the law.
Our town voted last night 4/3 NOT to ban fireworks in the city. It's already illegal to purchase,sell or possess any firework that goes over 4' or explodes. The cops are too incompetent to enforce the current laws. So they want an all out ban, which by the way they would be too incompetent to enforce anyway.
Put some teeth in the law and enforce it. The ATV problem will go away.
Wow Pat,just read this.What a sad dang deal.Hopefully Mike can rectify the situation.My experience with Montana ranchers is that they are not the people to cross.Hopefully he and the adjoining owners will act.(on their own) Another interesting point to me is your use of your GPS to determine boundaries.Years ago I used to hunt the Crazies and Little Belts and tread in fear part of the time that I wasn't crossing onto private land.I commend you for the use of technology to avoid trespassing-and for not taking 'short cuts'across private land.Frustration but still honorable,admirable hunting in my view. Good luck.
Sad, to have so much time, hope and energy (and money) invested in a hunt and see it ruined by slobs. The airline debacle was one thing, but now this ATV garbage too? With many magazines full of ATV ads, and many TV shows which seem to show that bowhunters apparently need one to carry a stand in or even ride 1/4 mi. to their stand...I see this problem getting way worse before it gets better.
I hope Pat's photographic (and I assume video) evidence can get these guys 'pinched' but again if the fines are weak, many would gladly fork over $100 rather than climb 1000' and walk four miles.
I rarely hunt out west, but we're even seeing ATV abuse on a national forest in Nebraska, and it's actually on the grasslands that surround the forest. It's in the Sand Hills and the damage done by these ATV's to this very fragile environment will take years/decades to repair. I know some of our G&P folks despise what is happening, but it's USFS land and they seem okay with destroying a pristine habitat.
The FS changed the signs in the little belts years ago that a trail could not be used by motor vehicle unless there was a designated sign stating the trail was for motor vehicle use. Prior to that they had signs that shut off the trails they didn't want anyone driving on. That didn't work well as a lot of the signs got illegally removed and thrown aside and then driven over.
I am pretty sure that the castles are the same. On most BLM in MT (at least as of a few years ago) it is okay to retrieve downed game with a motor vehicle - which I feel is okay (long as it is legal).
The kicker is for Mike to catch and document those with the 4-wheelers and wall tent on private ground and then prosecute. If Mike has good pull with the local law enforcement (doesn't have to be the FS) then he should push with all his might. If he doesn't then I would be surprised if the local FS does anything about it.
Publicity on this national chat forum should provide some weight to throw around and I would throw for a strike.
Thinking about slashing tires is one thing - doing it is another. Why stoop to lower levels? We know that isn't Pat's way.
Sound like its a time for a few high country "tune ups".
HMMM, why is it everyone you talk to that owns an ATV always uses them responsibly. The other interesting thing I read was that they were all residents. Typicaly it is always blamed on the NRs that are they are always the offenders.
Well, that's part of why I'm anxious to see if there is more to the story. It doesn't say it was all residents; it says the machines have MT registration. It'll get uglier if it turns out an outfitter was behind the camp and ATVs.
If there's a road, use em. If not, loose em. I for one have been thinking of getting an ATV to get into places that take a toll on my truck. I've been through a truck, working on a second. I'll walk with the best of them, but I'm not walking 35 miles in when an ATV would get me, and my camp in to a launch point.
Those guys should be hung however.
Before you all hang these ATV's and riders it may be a good idea to do a little research as Pat has said he was going to do before turning in the pictures. We may want to no if they are breaking the law or not. We all jump to the negative way to fast. Hope you find a good Bull seems those who put in the effort are rewarded. 10 percent of archery hunter take 90 percent of the animals.
Happy Hunting CF
This appeared in the Billings Gazette today:
OHV complaints rise during hunting season By Gazette News Services
As the number of off-highway vehicles in Montana grows, so are complaints from some landowners and hunters about illegal and irresponsible use.
Last year, the Montana Wildlife Federation asked the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Commission to adopt recommendations to reduce the "negative impacts from improper use of ATVs while hunting."
The group sought to establish a number of OHV restrictions and to increase penalties for violations.
In Montana, OHV registrations have increased from 23,000 in 2001 to 47,000 in 2006. FWP estimates that nearly 30,000 people use OHVs during Montana's hunting seasons.
"We recognize that most OHV users are respectful of others and that they obey the law, but we're increasingly fielding complaints regarding the illegal and irresponsible use of OHVs while hunting," said Ron Aasheim, FWP spokesman. "OHV users need to address these issues or they may soon face the kinds of restrictions and penalties the FWP Commission was asked to establish."
OHV users, hunters, landowners and others are urged to report illegal and irresponsible OHV use by calling 1-800-TIP-MONT, or 1-800-847-6668. Callers will remain anonymous and may be eligible for a cash reward.
A recent survey by the Montana Wildlife Federation found that the number two problem landowners have with public hunters.
Information on the proper use of OHVs, and OHV educational opportunities, is available online at fwp.mt.gov. Click "OHV Education."
Sort of a sidenote but doesn't Colorado limit them-at least in some places-to ATVs that are less than 40 inches wide?I don't understand the reasoning there nor do I know how limiting that would be but this sad deal brought it to mind again.(of course that wouldn't prevent illegal use such as this anyway.)
I've lived in montana my whole life. My grandpa has always owned horse and like many people in MT we've taken to the backcountry and had fine times up in the mtns hunting elk and deer. Lately though so many of the trails we've ridden and areas that we love to hunt are being over run by fourwheelers. THe castles for example where this hunt takes place has become a sacrifice range. Many people just dont have the ethics to use them properly. Horse/hiking trails only a foot wide have been shredded and whole mtn sides have been eroded from people revving up their four wheelers to get up the rediculous inclines. The ruts and cuts into the mtns are horrible. Bowhunting this last week, I found atv trails all the way into a meadow my father and I love to hunt. People seem to think they can drive up on elk and bugle them in. Not only are these people showing their hunting stupidity they are wrecking hunting for all of us and most importantly they are destroying the natural pristine beauty in one of the last great places with untainted miles of land. Grow up people. I dont care if u use atv's to get to the top of a logging road, but walk in. God gave u legs for a reason, use them. Hunting is supposed to be hard. Pay for it and get the reward. Your not only cheating yourselves, but the rest of us too.
Well, After reading all these ATV related posts I put a hold on my ATV order. Going to look at compact tractors again. Just don't want to drop several thousand bucks on a machine that I'm not going to be able to use. Too noisey anyway! ;)
Well, there ya go then...one small step for OHV control, one giant leap into a pile of manure for Mr. I-Didn't-Know-I-Did-Anything-Wrong. Good description of the challenge up there, too, Pat. It's not so much that MT is overrun with ATVs and violators as the fact that it's just easier to get away with breaking rules in places with lower visitor use and less law enforcement.
They shouldn't go anywhere you can't legally drive a jeep or truck. If you can't leave roads with your vehicle, you can't leave em with an ATV. Retrieving game or not.
First offence should be impounding the vehicle, whether it's an ATV or jeep or whatever. Pay a steep fine to get it released. Second offence you lose it.
Had "events" involving ATVs twice in MT this year. Once we never saw the ATV but his tracks went right around (under actually) a road closure gate with a huge "road closed" sign on it. The other was a fat blob in shorts driving around in the meadows. Shut off the machine, bugle, start her back up and repeat. Never got an ID on it but did report it.
Sorry to hear about the problems on the trip Pat. When it rains it pours sometimes. I'm pulling for you and hope things look up in the next couple posts!
Well it is good to hear that something official was done about the idiots on the ATV's! I am glad to hear that through all the BS you are keeping some perspective. You are hunting awesome country and hanging out with awesome people and it mostly doesn't get any better than that. On the other hand being the victim of a pretty persistent elk curse of my own for a significant period of time I know the frustration you are feeling. Good luck Pat I hope your next outing is the ONE that breaks the damn curse!!!
"Along with a forest service range manager, we headed up through Mike’s Northwest gate and then jumped on the range manager's ATV so I could show him the exact area where I had documented the ATV abuse."
The ATV must have came in handy for that trip to show the forest service guy the illegal trails. :-)
I am glad these guys got fined, they knew they were wrong for being off the approved trails and roads. Good job Pat, and at least in this story the non-residents don't get the blame for the problem.
Two questions:
1. Why didn't the Forset Service guy have his own cameria if pictures are needed for evidence?
2. Why are the elk always on the neighbors private land and not on Mikes private land (3000 acres)?
Two questions:
1. Why didn't the Forest Service guy have his own camera if pictures are needed for evidence?
2. Why are the elk always on the neighbors private land and not on Mikes private land (3000 acres)?
That's "four" questions. :)
Bullelkklr, It is not legal in Montana to retreive game on BLM land any longer, and it's idiots like the ones Pat has had to deal with that brought this on. The Montana Wildlife Federation is right. We need to get tough on this abuse. Pat should have let the air out of every tire on all those illegal ATVs he ran across. Maybe we should pass a law that it is legal to carry a tire valve stem remover and use it on any ATV found off road on public lands. I hope these guys get a permanent ban on hunting in Montana, but with our current laws all they will get is a slap on the wrist. Pat, I apologize for the way these morons have treated you. Most of us here are not that stupid!
Bowdad, now that's funny. Made a bad situation a little lighter.
ATV abuse happens all over. I quit turkey hunting the Ouachita National Forest in SE Oklahoma (yes in Oklahoma) about 12 years ago because of ATVS. Used to walk all over those hills chasing turkeys. Then if you heard a turkey gobble and hurried to get over closer to him, soon you would hear the sound of an ATV coming. Turkeys got where they won't even gobble on the roost anymore. Seems like they've been educated. Gobble = ATV noise = Loud Bang.
Maybe ATVs should be required to have Onstar on them. Not only would the drivers know where they can and can't go but it would report anyone that is using them where they should not be. The excuses from abusers reminds me of kids, "no one told me I couldn't drive here". There is no excuse for not knowing where you can or can't go. Try the "I didn't know" routine on a cop the next time you get stopped. Ignorance is no excuse, apparently they need to have a test system like they do for motor vehicles. If you drive one you need to have it licensed and know the laws of use. Same goes for NRs before they can bring them into hunt. In some states you have to have a hunters safety certificate to hunt and there is no excuse if you are a non-res coming in either. Once a few examples are made the word will get out quick.
How about confiscating all equipment used in the game violation? If you are hunting from a moving vehicle that is a game violation in some states. If you have a game violation in Nevada they take your guns, truck, camping equipment and anything else you used to faciliate commiting the crime.
A bunch of ATVrs ruined two of my favorite canyons in Oregon and this year i had a great time in an area where all the roads were closed. Thankfully, no one skirted the rules and not one day did I see or hear an ATV back in where I was. Saw elk everyday I didn't see another hunter. That was 4 out of 7 days.
If you can't walk in then apply for a handicapped hunt.
Cheers,
In the photo of the game warden and Range Mangaer...is that a 'woman'?
Good Job on taking time out to help The Cause on violations Pat! I imagine this will go down as your "hunt from hell" when you return home.
Are we going to see any hunting in this semi-live hunt???
does hunting for your luggage count? pat did that for the first few days.
just go to public land and enjoy the HUNT. you are paying for more problems than i have on my "FREE" public land hunt.
Yep ATV abuse here in OH and there in MT. No shortage of azzoles anywhere. Feel your pain.
GOOD JOB PAT!!!! Montana FWP has been trying to crack down on these types of violations. Slobs like those guys give us all a bad name. Ignorance is no excuse, all they have to do is look at a current blm or forest service map to see what is closed to motorized traffic. on top of that most closures are plainly marked on the trail. Hope his friends are smart enough to call the warden, the tickets will get alot bigger and more serious if they don't.
This whole mess with the ATVs brings up so many problems its not even funny. Sorry to say, but the FS is becoming the joke of the century. How could one guy cover that much ground.
drahtharr, its not necessarily about covering all the ground as it is about severely punishing those that are caught.
once the risk is too great (due to enacting stiff fines, jail time, confiscating equipment, etc.), it will be reduced dramatically.
i agree though that if $100 is the fine and you are then on your way, it won't stop even if there were someone to enforce every acre 24/7.
Thanks, Pat, for taking the care and the time to do what you did. If more guys would do that, we might at least make a dent in the problem.
That is true Kurve, but the fact remains, the GW and LEO is this part of the country don't have a chance, and everyone knows it. I did the same thing Pat did here with ATV use, sent it all to the LEO, never even got a response. I know the guy is overwhelmed, but this should have been a slam dunk. I feel that it is so common in certain areas that as long as it is just happening there, they can live with it. Just like this guy Pat dealt with, found some activity in a new "pristine" area, felt he needed to jump on it.
I am still waiting for the hunting???
If it were me in that situation, I wouldn't have wasted so much valuable hunting time on the ATV thing. Give the info to the FS and move on. One day of hunting remaining and they haven't even hunted yet. Too bad.
If there was a good FS road into the area, why did those guys hike all that way to get in there in the first place?
All the more reason I hunt in Wilderness areas!
I love the grunt tube!
Sorry you finally got to experience what really pisses alot of us off about atv's and the idiots that think they should be able to use them anytime anywhere!
Pat- i want to learn how to use a map and GPS. Where do i begin ?
I am an eastern hunter. ATVS are common in my area. Heck I use mine all the time. That being said, I only use it on private land where I have permission. Actually I have permission to hunt on a new piece of ground that is owned by the county judge(she is a lifelong friend). She said she didn't care for me to hunt but not to take any 4 wheelers on her place. People ride on her property still and have made trails all over her place and continue to cut her fence at will. I have a long walk to my treestands and have never even thought about not following her request. I even bought a deer cart for when I need to get a deer out of the woods. That being said, the problem is not ATV's! It is people who choose not to respect the law and the wishes of others.
helo -
they have hunted, but the animals are not on the land they ave access to. nothing else to do but pass the time with the ATV thing. they are just fishing with no fish in the pond it sounds like. those ATV guys seemed to screw it all up.
i imagine if the bulls were bugling around them they would not be fiddling around with the ATV thing to this degree.
"I have a long walk to my treestands...."
How long of a walk is it?
47 miles uphill - 14K foot elevation gain :)
uphill both ways, in & out:)
I just returned from a moose hunt in Wyoming 22 at Spreadcreek. I along with several other people(both resident and nr) had OHV's that were being used legally. One day I walked in 4 1/2 miles where a buddy had spotted a bull. Before I got to the place where the bull was spotted, 2 jackasses were riding Dirt Bikes crosscountry. They were using a trail that is only open to snowmobiles in the winter.
Pat as usual you are a class act!!! I am not surprised at your reaction to the way things went and, in fact, I would have been dissapointed if you would have let the circumstances turn you sour on the whole experience. While things obviously went way wrong you kept the best attitude you could and adjusted and you are ready to give it another shot. Believe me, my buddies and I have worked very hard elk hunting and have had some bitter dissapointments but it is the love of the chase and the beautiful country and the great people that make it all worth while, whether or not you shoot a bull! Your time is definitely coming Pat and that day is going to be AWESOME because of everything you have gone through to get there!!! I can't wait to see it happen. Keep after them buddy!!!
Pat Keep it going it can only get better from there. I am sure the next reward will be huge for enduring the past week. You always know how to take the good out of the C@&! Best of Luck
Pat
I commend you for taking the time to document the ATV abuse and working with law enforcement to see that something was done about it.
Jordan
Sorry for your experience- I was really frustrated for you. I do find it quite interesting that you experienced first hand what others are having to deal with.
I mentioned similar things to you few years ago about the Kansas lottery tag system (and trans tags) and the feeding of deer. Like the ATV situation in MT- we as KS residents are losing an incredible resource while celebrity hunters continue to come here and promote the damage. I can only hope that this experience gives you a broader understanding of what many of us feel in many areas of the country where conservation/resource concerns are being dismissed for selfish endeavors to hunt trophy animals at all cost.
Pat, you made many ATV riders woke up and heard across the North America! Good job! But, sorry that you had been thru quite of roller coaster exepernice! Get them Bull, (bugle call) again ! Trykon
Pat, nice to see someone not afraid to assist FS, it's one thing to report an offence, it's another to report and willing to be a witness.
One thing that I see that is lacking (I am a police officer) is the punishment for this offence. First seize their equipment and hold it for evidence until their court date, second ask for a fine that will hurt their pocket book, send a message, third ask for forfeiture of their equipment.
Once this is done have the media cover the story so it to will send a message. FS can also also team up with DOW to have an info sheet when hunters purchase their licences.
law enforcement have a job to do, as hard as it is people can make it easier by helping them.
Again Pat thanks for stepping up and doing the right thing.
Pat to bad youre landowner couldnt get u onto that property were the elk were hiding great pics Sorry about youre bags that happened to me in Utah this year .
look at it on the bright side..........you'll kill your annual kansas monster in a month.
and now we know why some people will slash ATV tires without a second thought to it - if I had "stroke of the pen, law of the land" power, I'd ban ATV's from all public lands, the damage they bring far outweigh the benefits
After all that....maybe you can patent that elk bugle you made.....Now...Go kill a big deer....Good Luck......Jeff
---OR----Auction YOUR ELK CALL on here! (*;
Then go back to Colorado and shoot that Monster!
Not running the place down since I have not been there but, they say 3000 acres of private land with 1000s of acres of National Forrest and ATV ran ALL the Elk off. Never seen Pat quit at 9:00am on the last day of a hunt. Didn't seem to be a lot of enthusiasum to hunt the whole time.
QB: His hunt was snake bit the whole time...sometimes it's smart to do something else. Did you see his pics from Yellowstone that evening?
I was in SE Idaho two weeks ago, trying again for three days to arrow an elk on my way to WY.
I carried 60 pounds four miles and 2,200' up the mountain in an area that is clearly marked "No motorized vehicles allowed off established roads."
Yet I saw motorized dirt bike tracks along the trail two miles further up the trail from my camp. They were a few days old, but I guarantee you I was loaded for bear had I run into either the bike or the lazy slob who rode it up there.
I have turned in game violators on several ocassions and will contiunue to do so until the day I die!
Play by the rules or STAY HOME!
I personally can't wait for the next Semi-Live Photo safari. I just hope the next one doesn't have so much time wasted hunting.
Pat, I'm truly sorry to hear about your hunt. I followed it daily, and really wanted to see you get in to elk.
That said ... and don't take this the wrong way ... it's nice some times to hear that things don't always go perfectly for people other than, well, me.
Bowhunting is hard, and requires more luck than some of us would want to admit. When the luck is down, there's an old saying: "Misery loves company."
If that's true, let me tell you about my first elk hunt this year ...
Sorry about the hunt, but absolutely awesome pics. You should 2nd guess your career choice. You are a gifted photographer.
Woody
A friend of mine went to AK. on the 30Aug. Took 2 rifles and 2 460cal. pistols. The pistols are in FAA approved case from S&W. The guy even went to the airport in Erie, Pa. and showd the security the case. They told him that it was fine and approved for travel. Everything went great until they got to AK. (via Northwest Airlines) Their clothes luggage did not arrive, the rifle case and the pistol case arrived. 3 days without a change of clothes. But, the fun part. The security in AK. took their pistol case and told them that the guns are in an unapproved case. The cases where x-rayed and opened to show they where not loaded. When asked why the people in Erie said it was approved and they are saying it is not. NO commit was their answer. They did retain a lawyer. Oh, they still have not gotten their pistols back. An when they do, it is going to cost them. Because they have to be shipped to a dealer.
I agree with Deertick. Hunters are sometimes like gamblers, you only hear about the times they win but not the times they lose. I've not always made the kill on my hunts, but often I learn more about the animal I am hunting and see more beauty when I am unsuccessful.
Sorry to hear about the ATV's it is a problem in albeta as well we where elk hunting on privat landat the begining of the season and in lots of elk every day but as soon as the first weekend came all of the @#$#@@!@ ATV's came in on the land that I know that they did not have permision on and the elk shut up and scattered luckly I got one on the second day but it is discuraging that people are so ignorant,disrespectfull,and lazzy Gung
I had a problem with a hunter here in Ohio on private ground. This guy hung 8 treestands on 80 acres of farm land. (pretty much one in every tree) In order to get to all the stands he made four foot wide paths with his ATV through 2 corn fields and 3 soybean fields WHILE THE CROPS WERE STILL UP. Needless to say that guy didn't come back the next year. The land owner even refused to let the the guy retrieve his stands - he promptly cut many of them out with a torch. Unfortunately the ones he couldn't find are still in the trees today as the tree grew around the stand.
As far as the handicapped and ATV use, I am OK with it - with permission of course. I think Montana used to have a law that a handicapped person could register with the forest service and get keys to gated roads. However I think they had to be escourted by a outfitter or something to that effect.
Pat try some public land in north western montana or idaho next time. Many of the forests are to thick to get an atv very far.
Didn't read all the posts so forgive me if this is a repeat. I contend with ATV's all year round --they have ruined at least 5 prime hunting areas. The SOB's blaze one trail off road and within 2 weeks its a damn 4 lane high way. The noise, gas odor, property damage is way out of hand. Excuse me for venting but being from the east (PA) I thought it would be less so out west . Obviously they are ruining that too. I am not a very political guy but I wish there was a way to enact/enforce some laws to curb the use of those Bass Turds. PAT....to me nailing those guys would be sweeter than any PY BULL. Congratulations.
Glad you got your gear back. That would have really sucked.
