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I'm obviously being tedious here, but just wondering.

The kill shot split rib kinda had a "s" type slit...hmmm...8^)

BTW - (jokingly) I was waiting any moment for a hungry lion to come charging out of those weeds unexpectedly while the coroners were preoccupied in their autopsy...8^)

But maybe you should have shot a light fast arrow with either a short 4 blade or mech head since so many guys shoot this type of equipment.

Or did you and you aren't letting on ;)

fantastic research/experimenting!

How sigficant would the perfomance have been if you were shooting 80lbs with a 27" draw?

Your opinion on that would be appreciated.

Thanks Dox

Your set up proved the beauty of a 2-blade coc double bevel broadhead combined with a heavy arrow. Now you need to work on your elk jinx next!

Thanks!

How much difference would a single bevel make compared to a double bevel?

Just curious.

Just shows how lethal a bow and arrow can be.

In all truthfulness, there is no way of knowing if an "exact" dimensions and weigh Phantom (only ground single bevel) would have preformed to a double bevel. - only if Pat had the connections to have had Muzzy grind a single bevel would we know which bevel outperformed or indifference in penetration.

So it's comparing apples to oranges on the bevel issue and the debate continues...8^)

I never killed a Cape, but they are very similars in bone structure and tissue to the water Buffalos we have over here.. We have tested many diferent arrow/broadheads combinations to get the best penetreation possible and good killing shots, and we also share the idea that best arrows are heavy ones with 2 blades broadheads. That's what we allways recomend to our clients..

(we have also kill Buff with mecanicals or light weight arrows ,under 400grs.. but when shot arent perfect with those arrows you olny get wounded animals)

Weight and good broadheads are the key to get a clean kill in heavy animals.. but why u deside to go over a 1000 grs if you can get great penetration (almost the same you got with your arrow) with a 750-800grs arrow (and have much more speed, crucial for a good arrow placement)?

Congratulations again!! BR SANTIAGO ROSSI - ARGENTINA

www.bowhuntinginargentina.com

Thanks for sharing Pat.

Is this what Southbowhunter is alluding to?

Woody have you done any tests regarding speed and [various types of] bone splitting ability, increase or decrease?

I was hoping one day to take a buffalo cape or asiatic using a speed bow to launch an arrow of "x" weight at pedestrian speeds but enough to get the job done. Reality I fear says no, even with a double bevel!grin

I chuckled when I read that the Tribute was a bit over 200 FPS with your arrows.

I had a Jennings Forked Lightening (1988 edition) that shot a 560 gr. arrow at a breath-taking 192 FPS. (2117 Gamegetter, 5 in. vane, glue on knock, insert, RazorBak 5 blade broadhead-the OLD Razorbaks for you kids out there.)

I'd bottomed it all the way down to 77#, with a 50% (or so) let off.

I killed deer with it. You just had to be within 25 yds. since it shot like a "howitzer" and not a rifle.

1 oz. is 437 grains.

1 1/4 oz. is 547 grains.

We're not talking a LOT of weight difference here.

The bottom line--bowhunting still requires SKILL...for all the fancy bowstrings, light arrows, hi tech vanes, top dollar sights, and leading edge limbs, the HUNTER still is the guy in charge.

That said...

Pat--congratulations.....and, where is that elk we want to see????? ; )

The bull is dead. Long live the bull.

Pat is alive. Long live Pat.

(OK. I agree with Pat--it WAS "sketchy" there for about 20 seconds.)

Remember, that when Im saying "a faster" arrow Im comparing a 700grains arrow whit a 1000+ grs..

I will never recommend to one of my clients/ friends to try a buffalos with a 370grs arrow( although we have kill big males with that weight + 3 blades BH)

Regards, Santiago

Better still example of bow/arrow combinations, gracias!

Woody does speed help or detract in the splitting of ribs in your experience?

After trying lots of combinations of arrows/broadheads and bows we have seen that for modern compounds you can get penetration up to the fletching, (breaking ribs) with 70 pounds, good 2 blades BH and a total weigth of 750-850grs.. So that is our standar recomendation.. bows with 70 # , 2 blades BH (Phantom, German Kinetic, Nanook,etc) and a total arrow weight over 700/750grs.. That will be our starting point, then u can add more pounds or more arrow weight but we advice not using a very heavy arrow (over 1000grs) scrifacing speed, that will be very usefull for a good arrow placement.

As u can imagine all clients have diferent bows and sometimes they dont like to follow what we advice, so we have seen a lot of diferent combinations that arent even close to what we recommend... some times they work good, and some other they just wound and u have to use a rifle to put the animal down...

One can pretty much discredit any "experts" on penetration when they fail to mention head orientation through bone. One has to look at the whole equation.

Obviously your setup was over the top to bust that rib horizontal. Impressive! That Muzzy head is awesome at 440 stainless and tempered to carry the load behind it with the poundage and arrow mass you produced. I have been on this site since you started it and this whole series is exceptional..thank you again.

And if it's true that increasing the drag of a target media decreases arrow penetration.

Then would not velocity changes effect penetration while keeping either KE or Momentum constant?

Of course it would, if the target has sufficient material that acts as a fluid. The more fluid in veins, arteries and organs that are hit, the greater the effect. Even living bone can somewhat act like a fluid when hit at sufficient velocity.

However, shooting through dead animals (with the accompanying blood lose) while hitting and nicking ribs at various angles and various rib deflection it would be all be all but impossible to detect the drag variable due to velocity. Just too many variables and much of the fluids are missing.

In fact, IMO it is this very velocity/drag phenomena that accounts for the superior penetration of heavy slow arrows over fast ones at the same KE. I think that it also accounts for why a heavy arrow draws more KE from a bow and are therefore more efficient. The limbs and string are going slower and thus have less drag. Having less drag makes them more efficient. I hope to test this theory in the not too distant future.

.......................

The bones that I've seen broke certainly seem to have a "grain". I think that we have all heard that we are not to give chicken bones to a dog because they splinter. They always seen to splinter lengthwise and they are a load bearing bone. Same goes for leg and arm bones. Compound fractures are due to the sharp pointy ends formed at the break. If they didn't have a wood-like grain, they wouldn't be jagged like a wood break.

Joebuck is absolutely right, the grain does have an effect. So does location on the rib. That part of the rib close to the spine and sternum are more rigid. In between, the rib has more flex that can absorb energy and limit penetration.

Animal movement is one of the most common factors that limits penetration. Shoot at a target that's spinning at just a few RPM and see how little penetration you get.

Just for giggles I'd have liked to seen, say a 400 grain arrow out of 60-70 lbs in comparison to the heavy arrow and heavy bow.

I forget where I saw it, Beendare's water buff maybe? They did similar comparisons and the lighter rigs failed big time in comparison. Most never made it through the ribs? The 3 and 4 blade heads it was even worse.

Thanks Pat. Interesting testing, very impressive.

And congrats again on a nasty ol bull. Village must have eaten well for a while!

I think that is an interesting concept but I'm gonna be very surprised if it's factual.

I think limb designs would have already manifested some of this efficency.

Split limbs and "slimline" would inherently be faster designs,I don't think we are seeing this.

Seems less energy loss from the limbs on heavier arrows would qualify the difference,however with due respect, I would never turn down a free education. :)

Can a chrono fit in a hyperbaric chamber? :)

In the CSI: Mozambique feature banner is the Phantom broadhead sticking up from (I think) the rib penetrated.

It appears the Phantom has a "tanto" or similar type tip. None of Muzzy's advertisements I can find show that. Does Muzzy's line have a "tanto" style tip?

thanks, dv

Total arrow weight. Without the 1100 grains it all fails IMO. Change the broadhead, the bow weight etc and there will be impacts but nothing changes it greater than that arrow weight.

But what did surprise me was how well the Muzzy Phantom held up. I knew they were incredibly tough heads (even the 100- and 125-grain versions, which I've never seen bend), but that was extremely impressive.

With respect to Ashby's results: some clarity.

On the plus side: he had similar penetration on Asiatic water buffalo (exit wounds after breaking ribs). According to Ashby's numbers, his longbow setup produced less than half the Ke of Pat's equipment (38.9 ft.-lbs.) and slightly over half Pat's momentum (0.523 slug-feet/second).

On the minus side: five of six of Ashby's shoulder blade shots failed to penetrate into the lungs. But he states that his shots were not broadside; rather, they were 45 degrees quartering toward. So comparisons to a broadside shoulder blade shot may be apples to oranges.

Either way, both penetration tests yield some intersting information and I appreciate the time both men took to bring them to us.

In the end, what I took away from both tests was the strength of both Grizzlys and Muzzy Phantoms -- two heads that people should have no concerns over with respect to strength, durability and edge retention.

It is my understanding that(all else equal) an arrow that is not spinning will greatly out pennetrate an arrow spinning at 500 rpm.

For this reason I always strive for the bare minimum in rotation needed to stabalize my BH's.

I "oops" set up a bow with zero offset with Blazers and it BH tuned just fine for my ability!

Do you have it? Or do we have to wait for your new website and/or camera? thank you