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Would love the input of BB on these, but I am going to upload some pics (you all have taken and I have saved).

Good luck this fall everyone.

Make those shots count! JB

I actually like the placement of the last mulie.

Have a great bowhunt. Bb

Waterfowler....sent you a PM, hope you can help.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Many here will disagree.

Here's a photo of an antelope I took last fall. The antelope was shot as he quartered to me (almost striaght on) from a close distance (less than 20 yards). He lived just a few seconds. I know this photo is graphic but it shows the damage caused when you know where to hit them. Killing a critter with an arrow has a great deal to do with knowing where to hit them. I have never taken a front shot that I have not recovered the animal.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Have a great bowhunt BB

Have a great bowhunt. BB

The redline is what I believe to be the bodys center line from center of brisket to center of rump. My personal belief is that this shot improves greatly with a slight qtr to you in order to cross diagonally thru the chest cavity and hit as many vital organs as possible.

I wont take this shot over 20 yards and most times will pass at that distance.

I like my hit a little high shooting for the opposite last rib as I think aiming for the hip decreases the angle ( depending on body posture) and allows for only one lung & liver.

I see your point...I probably should adjust a bit to the right.

If you follow the red line into the chest it can be used as a reference for where to place an arrow, especially for the deer family. Treestand hunters can learn from this as it releates to where center body actually is in relation to the vitals. All to often many aim to high.

Follow the front leg striaght up to where it crosses the red line....Bullseye!

I think BB's shot would have been OK as the scapula isnt quite as wide and tends to angle up the torso steeper

For broadside shots I now go straight up the front leg (adjusting per near side leg position). Quartering away I aim to have the arrow exit in front of the shoulder.

I really got an eye opener last year when a very accomplished elk hunter on this site shared his thoughts and successes on quartering to shots. I know I am not ready for that shot or a frontal shot under pressure but I did find it very informative.

What do y'all "forward" shooters think of this?

For angles, I mentally rotate the vitals - a friend of mine once taught me to 'Squeeze the orange' - picture an orange suspended between the shoulders, place your sight on that orange, and then Squeeze it with your shooting hand. . .

Txnrog, I agree. There is disagreement on this every time it comes up, but I personally think it is smarter to pick an aiming spot where you could super-impose an 8" circle over it and have the circle cover nothing but rib-covered vitals. The alternative is to have portions of the scapula and leg bones inside that 8" circle which decreases your margin for error. You don't have to shift that circle back very far, only a few inches, to come clear of the large bones.

The dot I placed on the spike elk, although forward and close to the bone, would not hit the bone if the arrow hit any where in the my red dot. The scapula drawn by Bogenschutze is exaggerated in size as my example above shows.

I have cloned an over sized elk scapula into the area drawn by Bogenschutze. It is a scapula taken from a spike elk my friend Jeff killed last fall. I saved it for this very purpose (education). Notice closely how the bone goes up so far it almost it hit the top of the hump, which by the way in real life that is not the case. I will post another photo that is more life like than this over-sized one. I do this one just to show that even with an exaggerated over-sized scapula; my broadhead would not have hit bone. Granted it is far forward and I certainly understand Matt’s position about giving a bit more room for error, but it does clearly show that hit would not hit the scapula.

The bulge seen in the photo, is not bone, but rather a muscle and was mistaken by some as bone.

Now look at my next post and see the scapula very near the real size and it shows that my red dot is even farther from the bone. Again this is a real scapula from a spike elk, it is not my rendition or that of some artist. It is the real thing!

Thanks to all who contribute to these threads and to those that question my posts, as that stems disccussion, which in the end hopefully better educates.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Larger red dot would be my aiming spot, catches the heart and lower lungs.

Seriously, this is a good discussion.

Concerning the frontal shot, under the right conditions it can be the deadliest shot in bowhunting. Some guys don't have the nerve or confidence to take it though. I called a raghorn bull in to a friend of mine last year and the bull stood facing him at 18 yards. He considered the shot but couldn't bring himself to take it because he doubted himself and his abilities. Since I learned where to shoot, I haven't had an opportunity to take a frontal shot but consider it another option when I otherwise wouldn't get a shot.

Lots of posters advocate taking frontal shots. They don't always mention the caveats or "prerequisites" like the shot angle needing to be straight on (thereby making the shot off-limits in treestands or steep terrain unless the animal is at the same elevation as the shooter), the bow needing to be a heavy poundage set-up with a razor sharp fixed COC BH, the animal needing to be relaxed and unaware of the shooter (who must be in close, calm and able to make such a high pressure clutch shot.

How about tucking an arrow right up alongside the edge of the humerus/scapula on those "you guys are aiming too far back" shots? We all know animals react at the shot, and not always down and forward. Sometimes they flip end for end, defy gravity and go up and back, you name it. Drawing a little dot on a photo is an exact science. Sure, an arrow hitting that exact spot would be great. But we aren't shooting laserbeams in a laboratory. Shooting in the real world with tricky winds, punched triggers, pulled shots, skittish critters and nervous shooters, to name a few, make shots at wild game way less exact. We all know that stuff after a few seasons out there making the mistakes.

What should we be advocating here on the Bowsite. especially to the rookies?

Adam

Thanks for your concern. ;0)

Adam

How big was the pig? And were they taking aim at a frontal shot of you, or broadside?

Sincere thanks to you and others for posting on this subject every year- it's probably one of the most important threads of the year. I just called my young son in to look at your fantastic white-tailed deer pic to discuss where he should be aiming in 10 days when he's in the field after a mulie. Thanks again-

Dale

I personally think a good part of this statement is far from the truth! Let's take this part of that statement and analyze it a bit. "Several inches back from the crease still double lungsem and that is a shure thing."

Several inches back from the crease is usually a double lung if one hits mid body or higher, but if one hits low it could miss the lungs. So only part of that statement is fact! And the part that says "that is a shure thing" could not be farther from the truth. A fact is that more animals are lost to gut shot wounds than were intended for double lungs than those lost to shoulder and big bone hits.

None of us want to hit an animal wrong and loose it, but a gut shot animal will die where as most big bone hit critters will live through that injury. So if that is a fact, why would one intentionally shoot farther back to avoid missing the bone with little or no concern about hitting the guts? That is something I just can’t comprehend. And the likelihood of hitting the guts is far greater than that of hitting big bone when an animal moves upon release of the arrow.

Shooting behind the crease is a rifle mentality that bow hunters need to abandon. I know its a hard principle to change, but for the sake of the critter and bowhunting its a must we all learn where to hit with a broadhead. Shooting behind the crease to me is akin to shooting field points rather than broadheads. I like to be straight up the front leg, but if that's too far forward for you, then go right up the middle of the front leg and see what happens with that shot as compared to shooting behind the crease. I know your eyes will be opened very fast. I get tons of PM's and emails each year thanking me for my imput on this subject and telling time and time again how fast the critters go down as compared to when they shot behind the crease.

Like the old commercial says, "Try it you will like it!"

The photo posted above shows a deers vitals and bone structure of the leg fairly close what its like in real life. I am not saying its perfect, but for learning the theory of why to aim forward, rather than behind the crease, it at least shows the reasoning.

Let's say the blue-green line is the crease. Notice how little one has to go back to hit the guts if the shot is low. Notice also how far forward one had to go to hit the major bone. One should neveer purposely (on a broadside animal) aim behind the crease. Matt, who I respect a lot, and I have argued for years about shot placement, but even he does not shoot behind the crease and as I understand him through these threads, he does not advocate that either. That thinking, to be honest, has no place in bowhunting in 2009! We all need to educate for bowhunting and the critters sake!

Have a great bowhunt BB

I showed you the previous photo to show the shot angle and the adjustment one has to make in real life situations.

The first thing many people say when they see this photo is, "Boy he hit that bull high didn't he! He was lucky to find that bull.”

The fact of the matter is he hit the bull perfect, under the conditions. If one knows and understand the anatomy of the critter they hunt, the location of bones, vitals etc, then in their mind they can visualize the path their arrow needs to take to insure a quick, clean kill.

The bull in this photo made it less than 15 yards. He made a small semi circle and fell over dead. Shane’s arrow went right over the heart hitting the bundle of arteries and veins that enter and leave the heart. That happens to be the best place to hit a critter for a very fast kill. Hitting the heart is a great place no doubt about it, as are both lungs, but in most instances heart shots can go up to 100 yards and double lungs even farther depending upon the placement of the broadhead. Hitting the bundle above the heart is almost instant death.

One always needs to picture the path of his arrow in his mind and aim accordingly to the angle and quarter of the critter. Broadside shots are pretty easy to understand although many still don't comprehend the importance of being more forward of the crease, but it is equally important to learn to picture the path your arrow will take on a variety of different shot angles. If one will learn the anatomy and make up of the critters they hunt, and learn to picture the path of their arrows they will end up with far faster kills and many few wounded or lost critters. And although many of us can’t agree on a lot of stuff, we all can agree on fast clean kills.

Have a great bowhunt

Thanks BB, your coaching will hopefully avoid this type of challenge in the future. BTW, great pics of the arrow hitting the animals. Don't know how you were able to get them but very helpful! JB

When I was young (a long time ago and before I had ever taken an elk with a bow, I was hunting late one afternoon, hiking a good trail thru the timber, when I saw and heard elk in front of me. Long story short I placed my pin mid body, right BEHIND the shoulder and the arrow hit almost the exact spot where I was aiming. The bull ran down hill and the rest of the herd settled back down, after the interruption and began to feed. I slowly knelt down and began to wait, not wanting to scare the herd in fear they would scare the bull I had just arrowed.

About five minutes later I see a bull running towards me on the same trail on which I knelt. He crossed the small opening where the other elk were feeding and where I hit my bull and came right for me. I didn't want to move for fear of scaring the other elk, but he was bearing down on me and so at the last moment I stood and the bull pulled off the trail passing just yards to my side. And there in his side in the exact place I shot was my arrow. Had I known it was the same bull I could have almost pulled the arrow from his side. I watched him run some 100 yards down the timber until the trees blocked my vision. I waited another hour and followed the blood trail until dark and got back on the bull early the next day and followed it again until I finally lost it when he crossed a big meadow. I searched for days and watched for ravens, magpies etc. but never found that bull. I can assure you this, had I hit at the same level height wise, straight above the leg, it would have been dead in seconds and made it no farther than 70 yards.

On another occasion my buddy and I has spotted elk on a sparse hillside, feeding towards a pond. He went down and sat in the sage brush surrounding the pond and I sat above him on the trail leading to the pond.

Soon a bull broke from the group and headed down past me. I let him go as there were other bulls on the hillside and I knew my buddy would get a shot.

The bull went down to the pond and as he was watering, my buddy arrowed him perfectly, according to our eye. He ran less than 100 yards and lay down in the sage brush. He lay there for many hours and as dark approached we hatched a plan to try to get another arrow in him before it was too late. That plan worked and we got his bull that evening, however looking at the hit I was baffled on how he had lived so long.

Many years later and with a much better understanding of the anatomy of that critter I can see and understand why he lived so long. Since that time I have moved my shots forward and a bit higher and in most instances I am able to watch the critters I shoot die. And at the very best, I am only an average shot. And perhaps not even that good. But I take close shots and I have learned where to hit them and it serves me well as it will you.

I used rambow’s photo to place the dots of the respective stories I told. The blue green dot is about the place I hit and lost the bull elk in the story and the red dot is about where my buddy hit his bull.

Have a great bowhunt BB

Study this close and you too will move your aiming point forward.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Today I hiked up and picked up a couple cards from a couple trail cameras I have placed. On one of the cards a photo of a cow elk shows the bones structure of the front leg and scapula pretty clear, so I will post a few photos of it so those of you who don’t quite understand can see it better. It will be a series of three of the same photo, but enhanced a bit and color removed to more clearly define that area. On one I drew with yellow the bones structure.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

The top photo shows a broadside antelope as we might see it while hunting. Imagine in your mind the spot on that buck that you would like to hit. If you are a guy who has been shooting the crease or just behind the crease, take close notes of the following two photos below the top image.

n the middle photo of the same buck I have drawn a yellow line depicting what most would refer to as the crease, or quite close to that reference. Let's Say you aim on that line or just slightly behind.

Now go to the bottom photo in which you can still see the yellow line, but this time I have the vitals overlaid on the photo. The yellow line depicts the crease. Notice the area to the real of that line marked in green. That's the area one can hit and still be in the vitals. Anything above that line and you have hit backbone, anything to the rear of the green line and you have hit guts and anything lower than that line and you have hit brisket or missed.

Now let's look forward of that line, the area marked in blue. That area not only happens to be larger than the area behind the crease, but even more important its the most vital area and will result in a much faster death.

Anything above or to the front of that line and one will hit bone, a hit that is most often non vital, whereas a hit behind the green line will hit guts and certain death with a great likelihood that the animal will never be found.

Would you rather take a chance of hitting bone or guts, knowing those are the facts and knowing the size of area you have to hit?

Have a great bowhunt. BB

I'm not saying that your account is not true, but I definitely find it hard to believe. I've been fortunate to have never hit any bone on an elk except ribs. I would advise to anybody though, if you hit the scapula, you better make a huge and focused effort to recover that animal. If you have a razor sharp head sticking 2-3 inches out of the shoulder blade, that head is tearing up that Bull's insides with every step. Maybe adrenalin will keep him going initially, but the internal bleeding will be severe.

I don't tell anybody else what to do. I also try very hard not to judge others. With that said, if I hit a bull in the scapula, the only reason for me to carry my bow going forward on that hunt is for a follow-up shot on the same bull. I have a short message taped to the lower limb of my bow that says this: "How long should you track a wounded animal? Until you are absolutely certain it will make a full recovery, and then at least a mile further."

I'm sure some will disagree with my opinion. Personally, by knowing that if I make a bad hit my hunt is over (governed by self discipline), I have been successful in never losing an arrowed animal.

This is a great thread about where to try to hit the animal. As humans, at some point, every one of us will make a bad shot. If we're lucky, it will be a clean miss. If not, your actions as a bowhunter at that point will speak volumes for your level of respect for our sport and the quarry we pursue.

We tracked the bull for 2 miles across Colorado open space land(with Division of wildlife agent). Had the bull cross a paved road after about 800 yards from the hit. Bull was bleeding like any bull hit in a muscle, paint brush type blood flicked onto the ground. We could see the bull off and on for the two miles and he did favor the leg he was hit on a little bit but if I did not know what I was looking for then I would have not ever guessed that the bull had been hit with a broadhead.

I understand your point and agree with you 100% arcticchill, But that is what happened on the particular hunt and the DOW had us call of the tracking job.

The scapula on an elk is a pretty heavy bone and the way it develops with the Tbone effect, it makes it tough to penetrate. Add the fact that it is located very close to the surface, so much of the arrow's penetrating power is lost through vibration along the shaft. When an arrow can penetrate tissure, it tends to stabilizes the shaft on the surrounding tissue and the energy of the arrow is better utilized. The opposite happens with a scapula hit, in most cases.

It is far easier to shoot through the scapula on the exit side of a critter than it is on the entrance side for those same reasons.

No one wants to wound a critter and we all should strive to see that does not happen, at least within the control of things we control (having sharp, good designed broadheads, shooting close shots, etc.) but in time it will most likely happen to all of us for one reason or another and I personally would much rather hit the shoulder bone than back in the guts. Like I mentioned before most critters hit that way will recover whereas a gut shot wound is a death sentence. Knowing what to do with a gut shot animal will certainly help in the percentage of recovery, but death takes so long, that a lot can happen during the waiting period (other hunters or predators scaring the wounded animal etc) and thus there's a good chance of losing a gut shot animal.

I would venture to say that far more critters are lost to gut shot wounds (both bow and rifle) than to all other wounds put together. You can help avoid this by learing to aim more forward.

So many seem to be afraid of hitting bone, and so few seem to fear a gut shot wound. I fear it for good reasons and so should those of you who don't.

The scapula above is that of an antelope in which a snuffer passed through on the exit (easy side) side of the animal.

If you look closely at the photo you can see the Tbone I mentioned. That is on the outside of the critter. But running along the inside edge of the scapula is a less pronounced ridge that gives that bone extra strength as it narrows to the joint end of the bond. On an elk that area is very tough to shoot through and especially on the entrance side. It's thick, strong and heavy and not broadhead friendly at all. You can see why elk and big bones critters can easily recover from a broadhead to the scapula, versus that of the gut.

Now look close the bottom photo and you can plainly see that this was the exit side of the critter by the small chipping that occurred along the broadhead hole as the head pushed its way through the bone.

Hi Bill!

Again here's the advice I often give to tjose new to the sport:

The absolute best way to ensure a full recovery, is to fully recover your animal. If I were to wound an animal, and I believed that it was going to fully recover, I would still pursue that animal in an effort to complete my original goal of harvesting that particular animal.

Obviously, as in ELKREAPERS situation, it is not always possible. Due to unit boundarys, private lands, season endings or some other factors there might be times when a hunter must go his seperate way and hope for the best. If faced with that situation I hope you've done your best so you can feel as good as possible about the situation. I also urge anyone who experiences such an event to do everything possible to maximize what they learn from that particular situation as no two are alike.

On a complete side-note:

I believe that in my home state of New Mexico, more animals are wounded by bullets than by arrows. I don't have any evidence to substantiate my claim, just my personal opinion.

The lesson here: always make it a point to have at least one practice session wearing the greatest amount of gear you might have on while hunting.

I have hit two big herd bulls in the scapula. Only got about 2" of penetration on the biggest one with a 72# set-up shooting a 4-blade 1" Muzzy Broadhead. I did not recover my arrow but it did not stay in the bull. That is a shot (18 yards broadside) I wish I could have to do over again- I think I was just a bit excited having such a slam dunk shot on a big bull like that.

The very next morning I shot a cow sitting in the blind with my dad and literally due to being worried about the Scapula thing again, I shot her mid body back about 14" behind the crease.

I believe that a decent liver shot like that is almost just as fast and definately as lethal as a heart shot. For some reason the liver with a blow through shot has always done elk in for me.

Obviously hitting the shoulder blade has not....

Someone should start some kind of tracking thread. The tracking game on the home page of this site is pretty cool. I feel like effective tracking is becoming a lost art.

It's always best when things work out and the tracking job is a breeze, but be prepared for the alternative.

I would agree with the point about tracking is something overlooked more and more all the time. It takes patience, common sense and a bunch of luck never hurts either. The most committed will always win on hard tracking job.

The situation in the lungs is a little bit different than the liver, though, because I am not sure that animals shot in the lungs always die by hemorrhage. Some proportion of them (maybe a good proportion) must die of pneumothorax. And the creation of a pneumothorax could occur anywhere in the chest as long as the broadhead entered the pleural cavity.

Indeed, I believe the reason the American bison was so well suited to archery hunting by the natives is because it only had one pleural cavity, so it was very easy to induce a pneumothorax in these animals.

Interesting to think about the anatomy of these shots.

Can any one cite some authority on the subject?

We'll never know, of course, but I still have a hunch that plenty of deer die by pneumothorax, or tension pneumothorax.

We'll never know, of course, but I still have a hunch that plenty of deer die by pneumothorax, or tension pneumothorax.

I shot this buck (with a shotgun slug) at 60 yards. I thought I was aiming at the perfect spot. I hit the buck right where I was aiming. The buck ran off. I waited 20 minutes and went to go look. No blood around, so I started follwing the tracks. Some specks of blood 30 yards.

At 50 yards I JUMPED the BUCK out of his bed! He was still alive 20 minutes later after "the perfect shot". That is when I put the 2nd shot in him and he expired in seconds.

LOW BEHIND the CREASE IS A HORRIBLE SHOT. LISTEN TO BB and go Straight up the LEG!!!!

I'm in full agreement about shooting up the front leg, but due to the body angle I want the arrow to exit just in front of the off leg.

He blew up the hill into some very thick vegetation and within about three seconds I could see a small tree come falling my way and at the same time could the crash of the bull when he fell. He made it about 30 yards and lived about 3 seconds------not uncommon at all for this type of a hit.

I walked up the hill, to the fallen bull and took this photo.

You can plainly see how far forward my arrow entered the animal, and yet it was just behind the scapula and just above the joint at the bottom of the scapula.

Remember the animal was quartering towards me, so I had to adjust my aiming point accordingly so my arrow would go over the heart, but it shows how far forward on can go in that area.

Had I aimed for the crease or even up the white line, I would have been too far back for that shot.

In no way am I advoacting shooting that far forward on a broadside animal, but one should try to imagine the path of his arrow and try to place it so it travels over the top of the heart on a shot like this and good things will happen.

Anyway I chalk this bull up for educational purposes and of course for good eating. He is all cut up and in the freezer.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Your photo and the way my spike was quartering to me are both good examples of how one must change their aiming point in order to insure the arrow passes through the vital area we are trying to hit.

In the photo you posted it shows that hitting the crease of even behind it is a perfect shot since the animal is quartering away. Had I hit the crease or behind it on my spike (which was quartering to me) I most likely would not have retrieved the animal. It certainly would not have gone down as fast as it did.

The same adjustments we make on quartering animals must also be made on steep up hill or downhill or treestand shots. If you are above a critter shooting down, then you have to hit higher than you would if you were on ground level with the critter. If you are below a critter on a steep uphill shot then your arrow needs to hit him lower than you would on a level shot.

We must always try to imagine the path of our arrow's flight and aim accordingly so its path will take it to the proper destination.

Here's the photo of the cow that came in the night before I shot the spike. If one were to shoot this cow or have an elk standing in a similar position, here would be the proper aiming point. Notice how far forward it is compared to where many of us were taught.

If one were to hit the cow where I placed the dot, I think you would see her go down before she cleared the small opening. I can not emphasize enough the killing power of hits straight above the front leg or even above the front of the front leg. They are FAR superior to those hits at or near the crease.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Tom

That statement bears repeating.

Here's another statement that needs repeating.

On broadside shots most guys need to learn to aim 3 or 4 inches in front of the crease on deer and 6 or 7 on elk!

Not only does that need repeating, but we need to get all hunters to understand the very basics of broadside shooting. Once they get a grip on that then they have the bases to make good decesions on quartering to and quartering away shots.

" The only issue I can bring up is you never can be sure how the deer will react"-------That statement is true not only for the frontal shot, but also for any shot in bowhunting. That's why it is so important to shoot up front, as most times the animal will move down and forward and if you are shooting the crease your chances of a gut shot are much greater than if you shoot up the middle of the front leg, or up the front leg itself.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Best wishes on a great fall and may you all have a great bowhunt. BB

Fair enough. Too many critters get hit too far back. I agree aiming forward of the crease is the way to go.

They're buglin' out there right now!