Bowsite.com

Let's try and keep this as positive of a thread as possible and just try and help each other out with some of the pro's and con's of bivy packs/day packs and anything in between.

snowshoeing overnighter

With that said have you owned or used a Kifaru or other packs? Not enough suspension lift for my torso or atleast the Nice Frame. Just curious is all.

Good pics and that Bone Collector looks like a interesting pack.

As far as Kifaru, I have used the Longhunter and Siwash and a few of the other packs when I was in the Army. Great packs and a great company!

I think I have pics of Badlands 4500 2800 2200 diablo hypervent superday sacrifice monster

MR packs bighorn grizzley crew cab longbow

Eberlestock blue widow slingshot dragonfly

Nimrod packs apex system

Blacks-Creek canadian alaskan all american

Kifaru lonhunter siwash

Sitka flash20 flash32 ascent14 bivy 45

shoot me a PM.

One of the reasons I have used so many packs is that it is easy for someone to say that badlands is better then eberlestock or MR is awesome and everything else sucks, BUT most people that say things like that have very little first hand knowledge of all the packs.

I would rather speak intelligently about all the packs and give the pro's and con's of each with first hand knowledge.

One thing I can say for sure is that all the packs are well built and ready for use. It all come down to fit and personal preference.

This 2200 has seen 4 years of use including 4 elk and 3 mule deer and is still going strong.

Where should the lift straps be in your opinion?

I have a Kifaru Longhunter Guide, and would like to get something smaller. A buddy has the Blue Widow, which seems nice. Another has the Sitka. The Sitka seems nicer, your thoughts?

Based on what I have read from Kifaru (I hope I don't screw this up), their findings is that the attachment point of the load lifter strap on the pack needs to be at least 15 degrees higher than the top of the shoulder. When the connection point is lower than that, it can't effectively transfer of weight off the top of the shoulders and to the hips. That is a big trade-off between day packs and haulers. It is nice to have a pack that has a profile "inside" of yours when walking through brush, moving under downed logs, etc., but that doesn't lend itself to carrying heavy weight well.

What matt said is pretty much correct as far as my testing has gone. 15-25 degrees above shoulder height. I always have liked my lifters to be in the 25% range. That is probably why I like the badlands 4500 so much and did not like the nice frame or the sitka bivy 45.

I'm working on the reviews for each pack but I run a commercial glass company and from time to time get pulled away from bowsiteing:)

The sika bivy 45 is a great pack but the load lifters are worthless and it did not carry a heavy load as well as some of the other packs I have used.

The biggest plus for the 45 is the ability it has to compress down to a day pack and detach the fanny as well.

I would get a blue widow or a badlands sacrifice/2800 above the sitka 45.

#1 Sitka ascent 14/ Badlands diablo------ If you have a spotting scope and tripod, the diablo pulls ahead in this category but the diablo does not work as well for taller guys from what I have tested. The badlands can haul more but with that, is also is a bit more bulky.

I normally like the kifaru stuff more then the MR but the bighorn is an exception. The only thing about the bighorn is that the suspension blows out at around 65-80 pounds but from what I have been told, you will have the same issues with the kifaru stuff you are looking at.

Good luck and thanks for the reviews.

Jim

What packs will be on your backs this year.

I had the Sitka 45 Bivy, nice pack but too much like the Kifaru so I sold it. I also had an original BL 2200, which I give a thumbs down on durability (good thing they have a great warranty because I had to use it twice) and load carrying.

Badlands 4500 for my 5 plus day hunting trips Badlands Sacrifice for my scouting and 2-3 day trips Badlands hypervent for my dayhunting/turkey hunting/ antelope hunting trips. The hypervent is my favorite long distance (8 plus mile) scouting pack when I am using a spotting scope but I think the sacrifice will take it's place.

I did have problems with the Hypervent squeaking a little but I wrapped athletic tape around the corners of the internal frame and that fixed the problem.

POSITIVES

Can go from a multi day pack to a somewhat sleek day pack in a matter of seconds.

Adjustable yoke for torso size.

Durable with a good warranty.

Great company to deal with.

NEGATIVES

Not as comfortable as other "load haulers" I have used.

Expands in width and not length ( may not be negative for some)

The fanny pack flaps around easy.

If you attach the spike duffel, the load is a long way of your back.

Tested this pack on a 7 day trip

I got 175 pounds in this pack before stitching started to pop (in some areas)

I've used the Jandd Mountaineering fanny packs for longer than I'm willing to admit and have never found any other companies product that is even close for fit and comfort on my frame.

Great job on highlighting a few of the strengths and weaknesses of the various packs. Fit is so much more important than camo, cost, weight or brand for a hauler.

If you have used the badlands monster or the eberlestock gunslinger and did not like those, I would try the Sitka ascent 14

As weird as this may sound, most of my whitetail hunting buddies who have used fanny packs most of their lives have started using the 14 instead. It seems to be a happy medium between a pack and a fanny.

Hope this helps

POSITIVES

Very comfortable with heavy loads

Many pocket for organization

Chit seems to die more often when I have this pack on:)

Great warranty

Load lifters/stabilizers are above the shoulders

adjustable yoke and 2 sizes

Negatives

Pull tabs have problems. I hate any pull tabs so I take them off every pack and use 550 cord.

I have broken a internal stay/frame when I was packing out a elk this year (it was the entire elk bone out) but when I dropped the pack off my shoulders, the left side broke 6 inches from bottom.

Pack will not compress down small for a day pack.

NOTE: I have re designed my 4500 a bit for bivy hunts. I did this to solve the day pack issue. If anyone has question about how and what I did----- PM me

Positives

The guys at MR are great to deal with and have a great warranty.

Adjustable yoke

Fits and feels great with 3-5 days of gear and scope/tripod.

Several pockets for organization.

Made in America

Negatives

Hard to try out ( can only be bought from MR)

Noisy material

Not many camo options

Price

The down side to this is it seems to throw off your center of gravity a little bit and pulled of my body a little more then I like.

The up side is that you are not hitting every branch above your head.

Now we need an honest to goodness unbiased boot thread....very refreshing to see this thread with out the usual endless lemming posts for each preferred manufacturer.

Tried this versus a Badlands 4500 and hands down blew it away in comfort. That said, it is a little tall in profile and therefore difficult to hunt with it on. Also, it could compress a little better for use as a day pack. In open country, it does fine. In timber, it can be a bit of a PITA.

Very well made, very high quality. Fabric is a little noisy, no camo (black).

Best of all, got it for a great price. That said, I'm still looking for a daypack/meat hauler option.

This has been my biggest dislike with some of the Eberlestock packs, J104 and 105 specifically. The load lifters don't do a thing, and the space for the rifle scabbard takes the center of gravity away from your back, creating an imbalance that pulls the user backwards.

Your results may vary....

Did I read that right, do you have some photos of the sacrifice? I am very interested in this. I have a 2200 and would like to get another pack a little bigger than it for 2-3 day hunts. Thank you for doing this and keeping to the facts of your findings, this is very helpful!

Thanks for the insights. Have you used the sitka flash 20? I have a badlands 2200, and a eberlestock, but would like a smaller daypack. Great thread

I am very close to pulling the trigger on a Blue Widow- still undecided- heard its a bit stiff for a daypack. I'm 6'3" and don't like the fit of say a std daypack like the Superday.

I tried a all cordura daypack last year- good pack but too much fabric on fabric noise to be a good bowhunting pack.

My buddy had one of the original Hypervents and we tried everything to keep that thing from squeaking inc the tape to no avail.

I'm 6'6" and need a pack for a 12 day Dall Sheep hunt in July. I'm going to take a look at Mystery Ranch Saturday since they're at the RMEF that's in my city. Any other suggestions?

Right now I am planning to buy a Kifaru LongHunter but I am still looking for something else that may be almost as good for less money. I PMed you about the BL day pack thing. One thing I just noticed is that the BL4500 is almost 9 pounds.

My hunting partner is 6'8" and has killed a ton of Dall sheep. A Badlands 4500 fits him great(fully extended). but if I told you it was large enough(badlands 4500) for a sheep hunt, I would be lying. If your going to be hauling all of your gear and the sheep down the mountain, you will probably need 6500 ci pack.

(I have never killed a sheep in Alaska so I will have my partner post his opinion for you today)

The MR internal frame packs (kodiak) would be best for your height. My partner uses a Arcteryx bora pack and that was the largest pack he could find that fits him well (for Alaska sheep hunts)

I have only seen the wilderness pack and have not gotten a chance to abuse one but they do seem very sturdy and a great pack (if you like external frames)

I do have a sacrifice and will post pictures of it and a full review as soon as I have time.

I wanna make sure I can do a honest load test and no BS review on this pack before I go off half cocked.

So far my initial review of the sacrifice is this.

It is a one of a kind pack that will work well for a 2-5 day bivy trip.

It compresses down to nothing and weighs next to nothing and would work great as aday pack as well.

I have had 5 days of gear in the sacrifice with spotter and tripod and the overall feel of the pack was great. I do think it will hold 80#'s OK but that will be pushing the limits of the pack.

NOTE: This pack is a one of a kind and for ME is going to be a one of my GO 2 packs for much of my hunting. It is not a do all pack but fits a nich in my hunting arsenal.

I would get a flash 32 instead of the 20. The weight difference is next to nothing and they both compress down to about the same size.

I was hoping the flash 32 was going to be more like a Sacrifice but was a little disappointed in the way the 32 felt with 4 days of bivy gear. If you had a choice between the 20/32/sacrifice, I would try on the 32 and sacrifice and pick from those 2. (It's more fit and personal preference)

If you are looking for a pack that has load lifters that are 15 degrees or more above your shoulders------- The EB line will not fit the bill. They will be shoulder height at best and work more as a load stabilizer then a load lifter.

Beendare------ The Blue Widow is stiffer then wood pecker lips.

I don't get on the comp after 3:30 PM.------ I have a strenuous training program that I try to never deviate from and bowsite is good at getting me off that.

According to Issac at Badlands, the Sacrifice will be available in late April or early June.

Sorycreekinc.com should have the packs first.

You can call storycreek and ask for mike and he will know when they will be getting them (I think).

I recently bought a Cabelas Extreme Alaskan Outfitter Pack with Frame. I bought it in anticipation of drawing a WY elk tag, plus it was on sale. Have you ever tested this pack? Curious if it is a keeper.

They have been a great company for me to deal with and Mike (the guy that runs it) will bend over backwards to try and accommodate anything you need.

I have not used that pack myself but my buddy has it and uses 4 letter words about it all the time.

He ended up buying a 4500 and a sitka ascent 14 and selling that Cabelas pack.

Sorry, I don't have much more info then that.

Instead of trying to PM each person, I will try and explain what I have done and post pics as soon as I can.

Keep in mind that the 4500 fits me better then any other load hauler/extended trip pack that I have ever used.

The big issue I had was the ability to take off from my base camp and not pack the 4500 with me for a day hike.

The other issue was using the fanny pack for my water and other items that I would need for a day hunt. The fanny pack was not large enough and to be honest, I have noassatall problems and a fanny packs slips down past my butt.

I NEED TO DO SOME WORK FOR A LITTLE BIT AND WILL POST WHAT I DID TO FIX ALL THIS IN A COUPLE HOURS.

Thanks for all the help last night dude......much appreciated. MUCH!

:^D

Personally, I think the batwing design is the optimal style for what a lot of us want in a pack... Any thoughts on that statement?

Anyone have a MSP on this pack. I am holding out even thinking of buying a pack until this one comes out. Looks like the perfect size for the 3-5 hunts.

If you raise the yoke, that will actually make the problem worse. The attachment points on the actual pack need to be higher then your shoulders. When the yoke is raised and you pull the lifters straps, the shoulder straps will bunch up between your shoulders and the pack.

With the nice frame, the attachment points are even or lower (depending on your height) on the actual pack.

Note: I think that MR makes a great pack and the nice frame works great for some people. I like my load lifters/stabilizers to be a good distance above my shoulder.

I was acutally having some problems with the fit of mine. I took pictures and sent them to Seacat. He made some recommendations to lower the yoke and adjust the lifters. All good now.

I'm a badlands 2200 guy with that same butt thing going on & I'll say it's the best pack I've used for all day or up to 3 days out. It is an elk packing monster too, I've never had such a comfortable pack that was loaded down with 90+ total pounds. What sells me is the external vinyl seat & straps for packing/securing quarters that keeps the meat away from my inside personal stuff! It's a keeper in my book.

Great job Elk Reaper!

ElkNut1

Cool man, Mark is a great guy and seems to be willing to do just about anything to help get the packs to work for people.

Good luck this season!

I have used the 2200 quite a bit, but for my build the 2800 fits me just a little better.

I agree with the amount of weight that each pack can carry.

I have charts that show each load weight that each pack can handle before it started to rip apart.

What I found in all my testing was pretty amazing, as far as overall weight each pack can handle from each pack company. I got well above 180 pounds on some of the packs before they got destroyed!! This was all done on a tredmill at my local gym and I used dumbbells and plates for testing.

I will try and post more on Monday.

I hate typing, so if anyone has questions about my thoughts on packs or what I did to my 4500. My phone # is 720-937-1418

Thanks everyone for keeping this a posative and helpful thread.

Have a great weekend

What was the tear point on the 2800 Badlands?

I wish you had photos of THAT!

Nice job on the reviews. Just taking all the photos and posting them is a lot of work.

I have never used any of the HornHunter packs.

I was able to get 195 pounds on the 2800 before the stitching started to pop.

I'm sure packing out 105#'s for seven hours would be worse on the pack then just adding dumbbellls and walking for a mile. Uneven loads are hell on packs:)

The owner of the gym that I go to let's me get away with more then she should. I have not broken anything but I do get a bunch of funny looks when I'm doing my testing.

I do most of it around 4:30 AM or 10:00 pm and at that time most of the people are gone.

The Good Stuff

Enough compresion straps to kill a man

quite material

Handy meet hauler

Good company to deal with and a good warranty(robert martin is a cool dude to deal with)

Adjustable yoke and belt

The bad stuff

It's heavy

Pulled a shoulder strap off

Extends off of the back more then I would like

Pros

fits my 23" torso very well--biggest issue for me as I am 6'8"

7000+ cubic inches--allows for BIG loads

pretty damn durable--i have had 120+ lbs in this pack on the way out with ram/bear/gear for 8 miles in a one day--"death march" back to the air strip--pack performed very well

Cons

doesn't come in camo

7000 cubic inches--i tend to put too much shat in it!

once you get above 80 lbs in this pack it doesnt perform as well as some others--shifts a bit--and anthing above 80 lbs for several miles just begins to hurt like a mofo

I did purchase a Badlands 4500 this year and I LOVE THIS PACK. I plan to use it for my deer/elk backcountry hunts this coming fall. It is great for tall torso'd gents and the guys at Badlands are second to none when it comes to backing their products.

It MIGHT do the trick on a sheep hunt for you but it depends on how much gear you will be taking---if you are going on a guided hunt where the guide carries the bulk of the bigger gear such as tent and spotter then it could work. I typically would plan for 8-10 days of sheep hunting and it would fill Cresent pretty full. I don't do guided hunts and the 4500 might do the trick for a sheep hunt. I like to eat and am a big dude...I don't skimp on food in the backcountry. If you are working your hump off and are wet and/or cold, a guy needs good chow to re-energize physically and mentally...so I am a lil heavy on food going in. B/C of this, I need room in my pack for it.

I never considered the MR cuz I didn't know about them much when I was in the market for a sheep hunting pack in 2005. I hear great reviews but I have also heard the Crew Cab doesn't ride well on tall guys b/c of the load lifters---but I cannot confirm. If I was considering the MR line for sheep hunts I would go with the Kodiak...its big enough for all your gear and has an internal frame...of which I prefer over external frames. If you don't need 6500-7000 cubes and don't want to drop the coin on the MR, my second choice would be the Badlands 4500--but load up all your shat in it that you plan to take on the hunt to ensure its large enough. Cpl pics of the Osprey attached... 2006 ram packout

No bugs up pants

Great for frosted over grass in the AM

Great for creek crossing

First pic is of him with 5 days of gear for a backcountry deer hunt.

That's one of the reasons I like the Eberlestock packs. They may not be the very best at load hauling, but for hours spend with a pack on I'd say it was 10 to 1 hunting and not extra heavy packing. But when needed will handle the loads well enough.

Another thing is I hunt in hot weather a fair amount, the Eberlestock packs tend to have very good ventilation as a rule. Again another design feature that may put the load a bit father away than some?

Thanks for the reviews TER, pretty useful.

I was curious on the MR crewcab WRT fit. Was your impression it may fit a smaller frame body better than a big frame?

I agree with what you are saying, if I had to hunt during the day with a pack that was that far over my head I would go crazy from hitting branches.

All the pack lines have things that are really great and things that suck. Like I had stated above, the blue widow is a hell of a pack and is a great pack for some guys. It all comes down to a few things!

Where you hunt

How you hunt

How long you're hunting for

If I lived in Hawaii, I would not be hunting with a 4500 or a blue widow. I would have a heat stroke:)

Great thread and thanks for the tall guy posts! I'll give the Mystery Ranch a look tomorrow and see what I think. I've done several back country hunts but only one involved a back pack (the others were via friend's horses) and that pack was an external frame Kelty that performed okay but I want to get a better pack for this NWT sheep hunt. I've been told I might be flown in by helicopter but that'll be a decision the outfitter will make when I get there and will depend on where he's finding the sheep so I want to be prepared for 10 days off my back. Like Jdog I eat a ton so I don't want to cut it too close on gear and with that said I'm looking for something over 6,000. If I'm flown in the guide and I will have separate tents supplied by the outfitter but I'm planning to take my own tent just to be sure it's long enough.

I thought that the MR CC would be a btter fit for shrter guys but I do know some larger guys that love the CC. I had the NICE frame and Longbow pack and loved the LB pack but was not happy with the nice frame fit.

I will say that I am a Badlands guy BUT am not trying to sway anyone one way or the other. I'm just trying to help people that are interested in getting a new pack.

Post some pics of the HH packs in action. I have a friend that uses the main beam for a day pack but have not seen it with any type of load in it.

Which fanny pack is the best for elk hunting. I'm thinking just a day hunt. The Badland's Monster or the Black's Creek All American? Also, any review of these would be helpful.

Monster fanny

THE GOOD STUFF

Internal frame to keep it from bunching up

Adjustable shoulder straps and 34oz water bladder capacity

Several pockets for all the normal day hunting stuff

Sling shot

All the same as above for the good stuff but the SS has the ability to carry a bow and the monster does not.

I did take the bow carrier part off the SS (I always have my bow in my hands)

I don't have any negatives about either of the fanny packs but I think the SS is a little heavier but not by much.

I don't think you can go wrong with either of the two I listed!

It's pretty obvious your NOT trying to sway anybody to one pack or the other. Just giving honest reviews.

i have tried on some of the badlands and kifaru packs and never felt they were worth the money.

The only problem I see is it might be hard to get your camp and the whole deer in, on, and strapped to the pack.

You will not get the gear and deer in the pack at one time----- not even close. I have trouble doing that with my 4500 and 5 days of gear.

If you have a packer coming in for your meat, then the sacrifice would be the best option BUT if you are thinking you can get 7 days of gear and cape/meat/antlers out in one trip------WON'T HAPPEN.

No, if I was lucky to get an elk it would be several (two of us)trips back and forth with meat and then one for the gear.

I just am leanaing towards the Sacrifice b/c of the reduced weight of the pack. It seems perfect. However, I will have to attach a daypack to (or in)it for use while elk hunting. That's my plan anyway. I figured I could always put the tent/sleeping bag attached to the outside while packing in if needed.

Should work......but so should have all my other hair brained ideas that were a disaster at the end of the day.

IMO on a daypack, it really does not make much difference either way.

For what I look for in a load hauler/5 plus day bivy pack is a 25% or more angle from the shoulder to the attachment point on the pack.

If you are using a pack like a Badlands 2200/2800 or a Eberlestock X2 for a day pack and could be packing the first load out with it, I always hope to have them at least even with the top of my shoulders.

This is a pick of Jdog(6'8") with a 2200. We kept the lifters loose so you can get an idea of how much the pack can get pulled closer to your pack when the pack is loaded down with weight.

I don't think attaching a daypack to the sacrifice is a good idea. That will not be needed because of the ability of the sacrifice to compress down.

There is no way I am getting a deer and my gear out in one trip no matter what pack I have. I am not that tough.

Also does the pack have an external pocket for a spotting scope? I don't see one from the few pics I have seen of the pack.

Archerdan. Seems like the Sacrifice will compress small enough to work as a day pack also.

Yep, that is what I am planning on this year.

Sacrifice for 1-7 day hunts

Get a animal on the ground

Hang up the qaurters

Take camp out with the sacrifice

pick up 4500 or frame pack from truck and head in next morning to debone and pack out entire animal in one trip.

That's with food spotter and tripod

No pocket for tripod but I do the same thing with the sacrifice that I do with the diablo.

I use the mech water bottle thing and put the spotter on one side and my tpod on the other. This actually takes up less space inside the pack and keeps the load equal.

I'm using a K&K tripod and a Swaro HD Angle 65mm scope

Do you happen to have pics of the Sacrifice with all your gear in it?

Brandon

You going to make it out 2 CO for mule deer?

My bad, that is the X1. That pack is my buddies and I wasn't paying attention.

I think I figured out how he has so many packs. When other hunters see him they drop their gear and haul arse....hahaha.

Man, thanks for the great advice here. This has been the most informative thread I've seen on bowsite. Real, actual tested equipment with no bias.

Thanks.

Thanks for all your knowledge. You save a guy like me and others a lot of trouble and expensive hard learned lessons.

If you need a scouting partner or a ride from the airport, give me a call.

I'll get back on track now:)

You can go to DAYONECAMO.com or call 800-347-2979

He has a bunch of camo to choose from ASAT/PREDATOR SPRING GREEN/PREDATOR GREY/MAX1 and a few others

I would need to know a few things from you first.

What is you height/weight/torso length?

Do you use a spotter/tripod?

Are you going to try and strap your bow to the pack?

Is your biggest reason for wanting a large daypack to be able to haul out a heavy load?

What is a heavy load for you 65#'s or 110#'s ?

My first answer to you question(without knowing those answers) would be a negative on the blue widow. It's a great alll around pack but a little stiff/rigid/heavy for a daypack. especially if you are going to be using is 20% as a bivy and 80% as a day pack.

IMO, if you are not a gun hunter, you should not use one of the Eberlestock packs with the gun carrier. Esp if you are going to be using it to pack heavy loads.

If you may be using the pack to haul around a gun at some point, then that type of pack is great .

When I got a heavy load in my Dragonfly, It was to far off my back and shifted around and pulled against me and threw me off balance more then I like.

I don't know about the 4500 but eberlestock does make smaller waist belts you can get for their pakcs, so the Blue Widow should fit you. I am 5'11" and 32" waist and the blue widow with standard belt fits me nicely.

I use it to pack camp in and also always use it as a daypack to haul the meat and antlers out. It fits me nicely and is very comfortable as an all day pack.

The #1 and #2 pieces of equipment that you can have in you bowhunting arsenal are FREE.

I don't care how much money you spend or what pack you have on your back or bow in your hand or boots on you feet-------

If you're not mentally and physically tough, YOU WON"T NEED THE COOL NEW GEAR.

A gym memership is cheap and running is free. If you don't put your body through some physical abuse before the season and if you don't get mentally prepared to be alone (without cell phones/cheese burgers and a womens love:) THE HUNT IT OVER BOFORE IT BEGINS

I can not stress enough for everyone to TRAIN like your life depends on it------- AND THEN TRAIN SOME MORE!!!!

One of my instructors in the Army had a saying

TRAIN HARD AND YOU WILL COME OUT EASY------TRAIN EASY AND YOU WILL COME OUT HARD! I have thought about that saying just about every time I feel like leaving the gym early/cutting my cardio down a few minutes or just not wanting to get out of bed at 4:00 AM and that always will keep me going that extra mile.

This link will give you all the info that you need to know about pack fit and load lifters.

The Sacrifice does have bottom zipper access for a sleeping bag. I have a mamrot pinnacle sleeping bag/thermorest pillow and a change of sox/underwear in the bottom of the pack. I still have some room left for extra food in the bottom section.

I liked that set up more then the blue widow.

Heavy for a 3500ci pack

external frame

Bullet proof

I think this is a pack cameron haines uses sometimes and has talked about it in his book and hunting video's.

I will say the the Badlands Sacrifice and the Blacks-Creek Barbarian are 2 packs and 2 pack companies that are moving in the right direction.

Light/Durable/Good price point/Good size

I had the Wilderness Packs version and it was well put together, but I thought it was a bit noisy with the buckles and all and for shorter torsos.

I do not want to sound like a broken record, but after using the majority mentioned here, the Kifaru is a bargain! I wasted alot of money trying a bunch of them and sore shoulders.

Seriously......this is one of the best threads I've seen on here as far as gear reviews go. I would like to pick up a new pack this year myself. I've been using an older model BL 2800 for all my day hunts and several days. The pack is shown in one of the pictures earlier in this thread and here loaded next to my son. However, I don't really care for how it loads with the wings, it is a little heavy for day hunts, and my back sweats a lot if the temps are the slightest bit warm. I'll have to read this more thoroughly and then I'm sure I'll have some questions of my own.

Those one size fits all packs hit me too high above the waist. That leaves me with MR [tried too noisy], Eberle X1 and BW and possibly the Blacks Creek pack which if made with the new lightweight fabric may be too noisy also.

Last year I hauled out my first elk with this same pack. Wasn't the most comfortable pack for that... but it did what it was designed to do. Then you can bring in the frame for the heavy lifting. I'll be using it again in the future.

Must say though, the new Badlands Sacrifice with it's light weight and breathable back has me interetest, as does the eberlestock redesigned x2.

Here is me with the 2800 and my son with the Black's Creek Canadian.

I don't think badlands is coming out with any packs with adj yokes. Have you used a 2200? I have a few friends in 6'1"-6'8" area and the 2200 fits them well.

I would encourage everyone to read this entire post or maybe even use the search engine to search within the post. Already a wealth of info. I for one just wanted to say thank you.

Mike

I appreciate the kind words.

I think what the most amazing thing of all is, is the fact that we have all kept this a positive thread!

I think everyone has done a great job and wish all threads could be like this.

I appreciate all the positive feedback from the PM's as well!

The water bladder goes in the fanny pack. You will need to get a square bladder from Badlands if you are going to use the fanny for this. I use a normal bladder and have rigged up a attachment point on the inside of the 4500. It sits up close to my back and is somewhat easy to get to.

Jared

If you have any questions on the 4500, give me a call. My # is on my Facebook page.

If I don't hear from you , good luck this season.

If you don't mind, It would be great to see some pics of the Nice6500 Combo (I don't have any).

Thanks much,

TODDY

No Idea

I have tried both Badlands and Eberlestock (both good pack makers) but finally settled with Kifaru. Amazing products. Kifaru and Mystery Ranch are the best in the business imo. No other packs compare. I currently use the Kifaru Longhunter as my backcountry pack. Might pick up a Late Season or Spike camp for day hunts. Kifaru= custom hand made packs. Doesnt get any better!

I know you have a bunch of pics of some Kifaru packs. It would be cool if you could post some for everyone.

Good Luck

Bass Pro, unfortunately, doesn't seem to have much of a selection, especially in camo if that is what you want.

Looking for a new pack: Eberlestock/Badlands/Horn Hunter/Timberhawk/BC Canadian are ones I'm interested in

Pack in 1-2 nights Bivy/Day Pack I average about 8-10 miles per day- and Yes with a rifle, so having a pack that can accomodate is important

any and all info is appreciated

I have used all of the packs that you have listed. If you wanna shoot me a PM. I will do my best to answer whatever questions you have.

If you are just looking for a frame pack that can handle a ton of weight, the frame packs that I listed above would work just fine.

If it's just for a couple miles and not going to be used for anything but a load hauler, I would not "break the bank" on a frame pack.

If money is no option Kifaru Load hauler or the Mystery ranch Nice frame.

http://www.oregonpackworks.com/store.php

Thanks for the info on the Oregonpackworks- looks very interesting- I like the idea of it being modular on a internal frame design- unlike the others that are basically on a pack board- I sent an email for further info on their system and will post info if anyone interested when I get the response

Thanks again, CJ

You can get 4 days+/- but that is puching it. Shoot me a PM or give me a call. We can shoot the sh_t about everything.

I'm using the newer model 2800.

I talked to the owner a couple hours ago(Oregon pack company), he is going to send one out for me to abuse and take some photos. I will post the review as soon as I can give it a good look.

I've included a picture of the Orion pack, that was posted earlier. It is the work horse "DayPack." It is the pack Elkreaper will get as well as the Greengate Pack. The picture shows it opened-up.

Sorry this is long, but read my website--Its not the best right now--money can buy alot of nice things; My packs are a reflection of how I hunt--I needed to have a day pack that could haul weight(meat), immediately after the kill, from my remote location. This has been nine years in the making. I'll get to you folks as soon as possible, and Elkreaper will take my "system" out and have at it! Thanks for your understanding and interest. Karl, President, Oregonpackworks.com

Thanks for reading my first post.

Here is 90# of boned out meat, on it.

More like $200+ that I'm seeing....

The meat bag runs $90.

I'd love a sweet deal on a quality comfortable meat hauler! I just don't find it.

J

Very interesting to consider the frame only with a couple 35L Ultra Sil Dry Bags and a day pack strapped to it. hmmmmmmm......

Les....where are those load lifter straps located...above the shoulder????

J

I also make a bow hanger similar to the ones they use. A couple of 4 inch o-rings from a hydraulic shop and a little webbing it's easy hooked on the pack and they work great to hold the bow for glassing etc.

Here is the Duffle itself

Thanks for posting the duffle pic's.

Sharpstick

Here is a front pic, that shows the lifter location.

Sleeping bag/socks/underwear/toothbrush/wipes/eyedrops/duct tape

Big agnes air core pad

Thermorest pillow

Day One camo top and bottom---Fleece

Stove

2 days of food

Water purifier

Knife

Headlamp

550 cord

foot and first aid stuff

Extra Marino wool top

lighter

Misc stuff

LIST OF GEAR FOR 2 DAYS

Marmot pinnacle 15 deg bag

Hilliberg Akto

2 days of food = 2350 calories per bag

Swaro 65 HD

H&H Tripod

PUR filter

Thermorest Pillow

Big Agnes Air Core

One set of UA underwear----One set of Smartwool socks

3 Game bags

Petzel Taktika Headlamp---2 Strobes

50ft of 550 cord

Havalon Knife with 6 blades

My migraine pills(I get the brain pain sometimes)

Duct tape and super special stretch blister bandages

Day one Camo fleece top/bottom

Garmin Oregon 400T

Wet Wipes/tooth brush/eye drops/butt wipe/

Brunton spork and a Brunton lighter that I could cut steel with :)

Snow Peak Giga/cup/fuel/spork

Ice Breaker Marino wool top

Leatherman

NOTE: My packing list will very from one trip to another. I can go for a max of 4 days with a 2800 (and stay comfortable) I could go longer but will need to cut out things like---- water purifier/pillow/

My daughter was the photographer on this:)

Jordan----I use a Sea to Summit dry bag between the batwings of the pack and I can stay for several days with that setup. Call me if you have questions.

Duct tape

Pain killers

Super Glue (surgical)

Stich kit

Moleskin /Blister bandaid

For me, if I need more then that----I'm in deep doo doo

Install new male/female buckles. Male buckle on the vertical strap and a female on the trap that is located above your shoulder( the straps that attached to the fanny)

The badlands monster fanny works well(with this set up). For the most part, I use the hypervent but the monster and ultraday are the best for weight saving.

1) 2 male/female buckles

2) I" thick strapping. you will need this to lengthen the straps that are above you shoulders.

3) sewing kit and a thick needle.

When I sew the strapping to lengthen the straps above my shoulder, I use HALO serving or something like HALO. Center serving will work just as good. This will allow the straps to go all the way over tha pack when the pack is fully loaded.

I love my horn hunter pack

Nice pics, the three amigos pic is priceless!

I have the same binopack/case from BL and I have not had any issues.

By the way, how do you like your MSR snowshoes? Is that size bouyant enough for a 200 pound man wearing a 20 pound pack? Or would you recommend bigger?

Thanks again, Tim

If you are not in heavy powder, the MSR shoes work great. I can be very agile/mobile with 30"ers and in the backcountry I will choose the mobility over flotation every time. I have had several sets and I sink almost as much with the tubbs 36" mountaineers and they don't have the traction like the MSR and are about twice the weight. The only thing I have used (and had success) in deep powder is 46" Michigan shoes. Wood shoes and heavy. I'm about 250 with pack/ shoes and overnight gear.

Back to the pack thread... great reviews all around. Pertinent and informative stuff. I took my first backpacking trip in 1971 when I was in the 9th grade. I had an aluminum frame with a 2 inch unpadded cotton webbing hipbelt and a "Gateway" canvas packbag on it. Weighed 60 pounds and rubbed me raw but we had fun - Packs have come a long way!

Thanks again for all the great info, Tim

The pack handles heavy loads very well and is easy to compartmentalize your stuff into the many different pockets.

I have broken the internal struts and Band Lands replaced them for free while I waited at their shop.

I also found no use for the fanny pack and removed it. I prefer to be light as possible while hunting and use a small quite lightweight cabalas fanny. It easily straps to the top of the pack.

After reading about other packs I though I was missing something and might need a new pack. The info in this thread has helped me to be content with what I have.

Can't wait to load it up and feel how it adjusts and rides. I had low expectations for the included pack but actually think I might keep and use it. Lots of room and well made. Not sure if it will do well off the frame as a day pack....but will have to test it out.

Man I love a good deal on good equipment!

I have a Kifaru G1 Long Hunter standard that I will be selling shortly (only for sale because I bought a G2 version), and would prefer to sell to someone on the Bowsite to give them a deal. The pack is in very servicable condition but does have a couple of spots that are worn from use (wouldn't affect functionality). I have spoken with the company, and they indicated that if it wasn't warranty-able, it would be cheap to repair. If interested, let me know via PM so as not to further clutter up the thread.

Edit: One thing I should add is the belt is their small belt which fits better for those with smaller waists (I am a 31").

-Ty

I will post all the pics now but I need to do a little "WORK" before I fire myself.

I will do the review and answer any questions, in about a hour.

Thanks and I hope the pics are OK.

How much wieght did you put in yours? How was the waist belt for fit and comfort?

As far as the "noise" of the pack. It was much quieter then I had expected. It reminds me more of BDU/Army pants type material then anything. I was able to test this pack in 15-65 degree weather and the difference in "noise" was little if none in cold weather.

This Sacrifice will be moving to my primary 1-5 day bivy pack, as well as my primary scouting pack. One of the best things about the Sacrifice is it's ability to disappear. It does this with it's weight(or lack of weight) and how well it can compress down. You can hardly tell the pack is on your back and the sweat factor was at a all time low:) With a pack at 3600 cubic inches and a weight of 3.8 pounds, it would be hard for me not to use this as a day pack as well.

No problem. It will take me a little time but I will get something together ASAP.

Front quarter and backstraps-----pretty good

Rear quarter-------Could do it but will be uncomfortable

The pack is not going to rip appart with a heavy load but after 65-70 pounds, you would be hitting the max of the suspension.

So to anwer the question_____YES____ It will take out the first load with no prob.

I will post some pics of the amount of weight that I had in the pack(when I was testing it at the gym)

You are correct! This was a smaller size. Badlands only had a Sacrifice with a 18" torso but I could not handle waiting amother month. I got this one to test and will be getting a Sacrifice that is the correct size as soon as they have one available.

The belt is about even with the top of my bellt button______ I must have a high belly button or I need a little more beer to pull it down a some:) :) :) :)

Now the only downside is the time it takes for this thread to load - lol. And the fact that now I want to go spend a crapload of money and buy a pack or 2. This has been very informative, and that's an understatement!

It will be in stores in June:)

Storycreekinc.com should have them first.

$269 MSRP

I've been using an older 2800 for both 1-3 day hunts/scouting and to wear daily while hunting, and considered the newer 2800 or 2200, but like the sound of the Sacrifice if it can snug down fairly compact for daily use and isn't noisy.

Day One Camo Jacket

Day of food__2,300 calories

2 game bags

550 cord

Scull cap

Gloves

GPS

CAMERA

I take more stuff(for day hunts) then this but I'm in the middle of cooking dinner and this should give you a good idea:)

THanks again for the photo.

BP

Have you got a chance to use that Aether 85 much?

Do you have any pics pf it in action?

What did you think of the pack with heavy loads?

Thanks

Mike

Mike

Does the top pack come off and turn into a fanny pack?

Sharpstick

Guys, don't go investing in a pack until you look at what these guys are making...here in the USA.

Joe

I have had the "Oregon pack" for over a week and have been able to put some miles on it now.

This is a multi use pack and can be changed from a day pack, to a multi day pack, in a couple minutes.

The day pack version has a "batwing"desighn and also is hydration compatible. The yoke of the pack can be adjusted in height but, you can run into problems with the yoke bunching up when you pull on the load lifters. I tested this pack on a range diff size torso heights.

The material of the pack that I recieved is very quite and I had no problems with the "strength" of the pack whith normal loads. When I loaded up the pack with 100+ pounds, some of the stitching started to pull loose in some areas.

The pack in the "multi day" configuration is somewhat load sensative. When I say load sensative, I am talking about the ability to cram stuff in the pack and still be able to keep a certan level of comfort. If the pack is loaded correctly, it will be fairly comfortable but you need to keep the heavy things as close to your back as possible.

If I was going to pick a "weekness" of this pack, it would be the harness and it's attachment points on the pack.

With a few desighn changes and tweaks, I think this pack will make for a great all around use pack.

NOTE: MY SPELL CHECK IS NOT WORKING ON MY HOME COMPUTER:) SORRY

We plan to provide a video on our website for proper fit and adjustment of our suspension--something we may have overlooked initially. We also will provide an instruction sheet with each pack purchased in order to lessen any confusion as to the proper fit of our revolutionary suspension design. Once the suspension is set for your torso, it never has to change; even when used in other pack bodies.

Please also refer to our website's "Downloads" Page, there you will find various articles, and the fundementals for proper loading of your gear into any pack. As well as our "Videos" Page for instructional videos.

Again, a big thanks to Elkreaper for providing us with useful information on our packs, and I look forward to more details from him as to the above "issues" with our product.

Thanks for all your interest and inquiries.

Sincerely, Karl President, Oregonpackworks.com

http://www.mountain-archery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3773

Sounds like a good deal to me

Their site is really informative. There is a section labeled "videos". This will give you an indepth demo of the possibilities with their pack system. Worth a look!

The best place to order this pack will be-- GEMCOUNTYARCHERY.COM

They have a $20 of sale going on if you pre-order.

My top packs are the 4500/2800/hypervent /sitka 14/Mr bighorn.

I use the hyperventilation and like it more then the 14, because it holds a spotting scope. The good thing about the 14 is the torso fit for tall guys.

I liked the kifaru packs, I just like the 4500 better. I will say that if I was going to use a non camp pack(like kifaru). I would use a arcterx mountaineering pack,they feel more like my 4500(with heavy loads) and the load lifters are at the angle I like ,k ifaru's are not.

I've got a Mystery Ranch NICE frame and Behemoth pack that works great!!!

Actually have just listed it for sale....if anyone is interested toss me a PM!!

I LOVE the Mystery Ranch stuff....its some of the best stuff I've ever used....

I've got a Mystery Ranch NICE frame and Behemoth pack that works great!!!

Actually have just listed it for sale....if anyone is interested toss me a PM!!

I LOVE the Mystery Ranch stuff....its some of the best stuff I've ever used....

[IMG]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a297/Rackmastr/IMG_0074.jpg[/IMG]

They make a wide variety oof pack from simple day packs to full on frame packs. And the best thing is they are american made.

I talked with Crooked Horn Outfitters today (very nice lady) and I'm hoping to have the High Country ExtremeII pack soon.

The owner was out of the office (when I called) but heshould be calling me back in the next couple days.

I'll keep everyone posted.

You have to be careful with those, if you close them wrong they are LOUD!!!

Personally, I think they are one big mistake. Matt made a good comment about the possibility of them making a loud noise if you weren't careful about how you close them.

I think that little orange loop opener that sticks out like a sore thumb could be a potental brush catcher. Looks cute for the yuppie types but not so good for the serious hunter.

I used the range finder case as well and I would choose that over any of the other cases that I have used.

I can't speak about any of the other stuff because I ahve not had a chance to use them.

I did about 6-7 miles with the Sacrifice last night. I had about 37 pounds in the pack (without water weight) and it felt great. I was really happy with the amount (or lack of) sweat off of my back.

If you have the option of taking out the backstraps and your gear on the first load and then coming back in with a load hauling pack, then i would get the hypervent.

If you are getting the pack for a "DO ALL" type of a thing, the 2200 is a way better option.

I can tell you at 6' 6' , the 2200 is going to be one of the only packs that will fit your torso length and still have the load lifters above your shoulders.

PM or call me if you wanna chat about it further.

The Badlands bino case can make quite a CLOPing sound if you close it without fully controlling it all the way. I have been trying to find a better mousetrap than my mad dog bino manager but haven't yet. It isn't perfect, but better than the alterantives I have tried.

Badlands belts don't fit guys with 30-32" waist very well

Stronger buckles on MR CrewCab and it "felt" better under load on me. I also like the expandability.

Packs really are like boots, and different people will like different things....body type makes a difference as well.

If I stood next to ELKREAPER it would look like Danny DeVito standing next to Arnold Schwarzenegger in the movie Twins (OK, i'm thinner than DD). You gotta go try these things on and throw some junk in them to see how they feel.

I think you posted a pic of the "crew cab" but do you a few more that you could post. We don't have many of the MR packs on the thread and it would be cool to get a few more up.

Thanks Man

Can you post a pic of the "mad dog" bino case that you are using, or the positives and negatives about it?

I agree with you about that "snap" that the magnets make on the bino case from Badlands. I guess for me it was more like slamming a car door. I know ahead of time that I need to make sure and not just let it go or slam it shut. On the other hand, I could forget about closing it quietly when a 350 bull is coming in :)

As far as the buckle/zipper issues on the 2200 and other badlands packs.

Badlands had a issue with a bad run of buckles and zippers, this is one of the reason that you get such a wide variety of durability answers on some of the Badlands packs. They have fixed this issue and should not have any problems with the buckles or zippers.

I can say that the sacrifice has a new style and buckle and I can tell you (with first hand knowledge) that the buckles will hole more weight than you would want to carry.

We have had a few tabs break off on the zipper pulls, but the zippers are fine & just a portion of the tab breaks not the whole tab. We just add a paper clip or piece of rawhide like a boot strap thickness with a knot on one end & you're good to go, it's no big deal at all.

Not sure about the waist issue either, I'm 5'7 1/2" 157# 31"-32" waist & have no issues with the belt tightness, it is close to the end but not a problem that I've noticed at all. I love the pack & it's tough as nails & will hold anything you can carry for miles & miles under any terrain conditions. Before this pack came along we used to pack out all meat on Kelty Cache Haulers with the "batwing" style side strapping, it's a good pack frame but the badlands 2200 is so comfortable we use it on return trips as well, it flat hauls meat & fits solid as a rock to your body. None of us have complaints about the versatility of this pack!

Here's a photo of my son with a front shoulder & hindquarter & a backstrap, tenderloin & scrap meat all on this load, we generally carry loads like this with this pack with no problems! Not sure of the weight but it's well in excess of 100# with meat & all inside items.

ElkNut1

I have been able to get several more miles and a ton more testing done on this pack. Much like the Sacrifice, I wanted to get as much time on this pack before I gave a very detailed review.

My first review. was my initial thoughts and I had about a week of testing (into the pack) but now have about 30-35 miles on the pack and have been able to get a few guys at different heights to try this out.

Weight limit and material strength

This pack measured up well against all of the other packs I have used. When I was running through the "durability" test, I reached weights of 170+ pounds before I ran into any issues with the stitching. I would NOTE that if I did not tell someone that the stitching had "poped" in a couple places, you prolly would not notice.

Pack Adjustments

I was able to get the pack to fit guys from a height of 5'6"-6'7". I would say that the pack suits a guy from 5'9"-6'2" the best, but will work for taller/shorter guys as well. NOTE: Karl at Packworks is able to "custom fit" the yokes for different size hunters.

The best use of the pack

If i were going to use this pack full time, the orion configuration would be on my back the most. When the pack is set up with the two "bat wings" attached and the water/hydration system, you could easily bivy out for 4 days. You also would have the ability to pack a good amount of meat out on the first load as well. The "ORION" configuration (as well as the whole enchilada) has a multitude of compression straps and you would be able to strap just about anything to the outside.

The whole enchilada

With the pack set up in this configuration, you could fit just about anything inside. You have the option of attaching the fanny pack to the top portion of the pack and the bat wings as well. The general idea behind this pack system / this configuration, is to hike into the backcountry and set up your camp and then re-configure the pack into the orion system and have a great day pack and the option of a load hauler back in camp.

I would say that if you are looking at a pack that will do a multitude of different things and have a good deal of comfort in each configuration---- This pack is worth taking a look at. The biggest decision you will need to make(when choosing this pack) would be owning 3 or 4 packs from a different company and being a little more comfortable in those OR buying the whole enchilada and having a decent amount of comfort BUT only owning the one pack. (you can't have your cake and eat it to) but you would be close with the Oregonpackworks.

As far as my "negative" comment on the shoulder straps. I have spoken with Karl (owner of Oregonpackworks) and they had come out with a newer design and I had the older model. I had also made a few suggestion on some things I would change / modify and he was "open armed" with anything that I had to say.

I am on my office computer but when I get back to the house, I will post all the pics I have of the pack.

Feel free to PM or call me with any question on the Oregonpackworks pack.

I still have mine that I use as a "loaner" pack or for Whitetail hunting from time to time.

Watching the video on the Oregon pack it seemed like you are unable to get the same use out of the batwings like the badlands 2800? I put my spotting scope and tripod in between them on my badlands like in your earlier photo , but just by watching the video of the Oregon pack it looks like the space between the batwings will not tighten up very snug due to the positioning of the buckles on the batwings. What are your thoughts on that?

But that does nothing for the load lifters and the resultant geometry. It's no different than every other hunting pack maker. They simply raise the shoulder straps and totally ignore the lifters and the location of the pack to the body. I'm not singling him out, they all do it.

One thing I find "disturbing". In my search to find a pack that fits, EVERY backpack site I went to emphasizes measuring the torso and getting a frame to fit so the lifters actually work, and the load is properly placed on the body.

NOT ONE hunting pack site I have been to even mentions torso measurement.

At 22-23 torso length, the 2200 is the only mid size "do all" that even comes close for me.

I would add that most people have no idea what their "torso" length is or how to measure it. I would also say that most have no idea on how to properly "fit" a pack to themselves to get the maximum comfort level.

I already have a cpl pack designs drawn up. Not sure I'll make more than 1 but I'm doing one for sure. It will be totally adjustable as we talked about off line.

I'm working some odd hours so I haven't finished the Crew Cab Load Leveler yet. I have the frame done but still need to add the clips. It will snap right onto the Nice frame using the "unused" clips that are behind the Crew Cab bag. Totally adjustable load lifters.

You are the man.

They make some cool looking packs but their web site leaves little to be desired. Do you know anyone that has a McHale pack?

Thanks again.

Mike

The link to the online store is http://shop.HMHUNTING.COM/Badlands-Sacrifice-JAsacrifice.htm.

The pack held up well to some extreme abuse. I was suprised that nothing ripped off the pack with the amount of weight and the awkward loads. No ripping of material or stiching and the sweat factor was much lower then normal (on my back).

https://www.kifaru.net/PtmnInst.pdf

Does anyone have pics of the new hipbelt design (larger zippered pockets on the belt, beefier belt etc)?

Pull the load lifter straps until they are taut. If done properly, the shoulder straps will no longer be in complete contact with your shoulders near where they anchor to the pack. You will feel the pack’s pressure shift off of the top of your shoulders to the upper part of the chest, just below the collarbone.

If necessary, loosen the shoulder straps from the bottom by about a half an inch and then pull the load lifter straps taut again. Repeat until you feel the pressure properly distributed as described above.

Load-lifter straps are located just below the tops of your shoulders (near your collarbones) and should angle back toward the pack body at a 45-degree angle. Gently snug the load-lifter straps to pull weight off your shoulders. (Overtightening the load lifters will cause a gap to form between your shoulders and the shoulder straps.)

Elk Reaper will have the 2nd one I make.

This setup felt good for me last year...

Thanks-Don

Sent you guys a PM.

I'm getting ready to head deep into the wilderness for a couple of weeks chasing spring Toms. Actually, I usually get into my spot, kill one bird and eat it for a week and then start to hunt the second so I can bring it home. Anyway, I use an external frame Cabela's Alaska II (I think that's what it's called?). I've had this pack for years and usually carry about 50-90 pounds. 50#'s is usually the load goin in (2 weeks worth of gear and food). 90# is a heavier than normal load packing out with a bird and some of the nicer muley and elk sheds I find.

It doesn't seem like I'm seeing a lot of external frame packs on this thread? Am I mistaken or is there a reason external frame packs are not ideal?

The biggest negatives (for me) with a exteral frame pack are that they are a little bulky/ rigid and can be a little less comfortable. They are also a little heavy (some models).

They do pack a heavy load very well (framed packs) and are generally easier to lash thngs on to.

All the guys that I know that use a frame pack are going in with a internal frame pack and leave a frame pack back at the trail head (in the truck). ounce they have taken a animal, they bring the first load out (with the internal frame) and then come back in with a frame pack for the bulk of the work.