Bowsite.com

In the top photo you see the antelope watering in the position where he watered. He was only about 15 yards away. The photo right below him show how far he made it after the shot. Notice on the left side of the photo the side of the blind. He made just over 20 yards. The next photo below that one shows another antelope on the gound and the edge of another blind, with a few does that were with him wondering what the heck happened. He made it about 30 yards or so and the shot was about 20 yards. The bottom photo shows a close up of that same buck and how he looked when I walked over to him.

The frontal shot or a slight quartering to you frontal are my favorite shots. The blood trails are fantastic in most cases and most critters don't make it very far. Like in all shots, you have to hit pretty close to where you are aiming. But that is true on all shots.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Now that said, there isn't much margin of error, and I told him I'd like him to try not to take a shot like that again.

First I take any random full size photo, make a copy of it. This photo just happened to be the next group of antelope that came and watered while the dead buck lay just above them.

Since Bowsite photos are posted so small, you will have to look close to see the watering buck on the upper right side of photo.

Notice my orginal photo in this thread and you can see I made a mistake when I cropped the photo. I got part of the big photo still in the top part that should have been cropped out.

Here's what I really meant it to look like. On this photo you don't see all that stange grass growing and the weird angles that you do in my first post.

I am sure there are better ways to do this, but this is how I do it.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

I would shoot an elk straight on if he were under 20yds, but I am nervous to shoot the quartering-to angle so I will pass that one up.

The above photos BTW is an oven we built for our tent stove.

Beendare, you've been around here long enough to know you need a think skin to hang out on an internet forum.

I posted in the "other" thread too. As I mentioned there, my brain just doesn't think about a frontal shot. I wish it did, that Buck Antelope pic shows how good a shot it is.

Great pics again BB.

This thread is like a recurrent nightmare, anyway!

Best of Luck, Jeff (bowsite sponsor)

Hmmm, does that mean this topic comes up 3 or 4 times each year?

G

Can you photoshop Bigdan's pic at the top of the thread and give us an idea where the shoulder bones would be located?

But I'll stick by my opinon. It is a great shot. But like was stated before, you need ice water in your viens to do it. This is not for the guy that gets trembling knees when he is in a face off at 8-10 yards with a bull elk.

Being able to place the shot shouldn't be a problem either. At that close , you should be able to pop a ping-pong ball every time.

WW makes a vaild point, does one have ice in there viens to make it....IMO most don't.

Dan and BB, heck they live by it....:)

As a treestand whitetail hunter, I never considered the frontal or quartering-to shot. I had shot a deer or two quartering-to slightly that I didn't realize were slightly quartered to (shot them behind the shoulder) and had bad experiences with the shot as the arrow entered behind the shoulder and exited far back on the off-side, mostly taking only one lung, and resulting in a long and/or non-existant bloodtrail

HOWEVER. . . last year when preparing for my first elk hunt I read through lots of threads on this very subject. I read with great interest BB's and BigDan's experiences. I studied anatomy of elk and deer, and realized, this was a deadly shot if taken right, and if you were able to get an arrow in in FRONT of the shoulder. I resolved to take the shot if I were comfortable with it at the time of the hunt, and the situation warranted it.

On the fifth day of my first elk hunt last year, my buddy and I had set up in an area where we had been working bulls for two days, never getting a shot, but never pushing them or buggering them too badly. I was up on a little rise with a ditch in front of me, and ditch behind. My buddy set up in this ditch behind me at about 70 yards and we waited until the sun hit the basin and the bulls lit up. Then my buddy went nuts with bugle and cow call, and in no time, we had bulls heading our way.

I had gotten severely rattled the day before when two bulls screamed in, but for some reason, I was calmer today. I could hear the bulls getting closer, but I guess I didn't think it was really gonna happen. I heard a bull bugle, but thought he was 200 yards away. Suddenly, 50 yards out, from behind a big spruce, steps a bull. He started walking almost directly towards me.

As he came on, I thought he would get to the top of the little rise I was on, and try to look down into the ditch to see where the calling was coming from. He walked in to about 10 yards and I drew. He stopped in a perfect lane. I thought he was strongly quartered to, so I was gonna shoot him in front of the point of the shoulder, and it was gonna exit behind his off shoulder.

I don't remember aiming, I wasn't nervous or shaking, I don't remember picking a spot or looking at a pin or releasing or anything. It was robotic. I just knew right where I wanted to hit him, about an inch in FRONT of the point of his shoulder. I shot and he crashed off and made it 50 yards before falling over dead.

He was more strongly quartering than I thought, almost straight-on. The arrow had gone in about an inch or two right in front of the point of the shoulder, traveled completely through the bull's body cavity and was sticking 12 inches out of his off-side hind quarter about 5 inches below his bung hole.

I will not hesitate to take the shot again at 15 or less yards.

Bake

I'm thinking that to kill a wood stove and put it down quickly, I'd prolly want to shoot it with one of BB's Snoofers.

:^D

As much as that bull pic has been used for these shot placement threads, I ought to get some royalties, dontcha think? Definitely presents a common dilemma encountered while solo calling, so the discussion is great.

By the way Danny how is that grandson doing?

Have a great bowhunt BB

Hey, we are all big boys here. I know what I [and Bigdan/others] said on the last thread is not the Politically correct stance. I'm not teaching a class to a bunch of rookies who took a neck shot with a rifle last season. There are many accomplished bowhunters on this site.

I knew I was in trouble with the "bowhuter Ed instructors" out there. I had a bow ed instructor [ who I know for a fact has never shot an antlered deer] explaining shot angles to me. I think its good curriculum for a beginner and if a guy wants to stick by those rules more power to him.

I posted my comments to guys who are trying to understand the minutia of anatomy, animal reaction, etc and how it affects MY criteria for a good shot. I'm more like them than they think. I think its irresponsible for any hunter to take a shot that isn't a certainty.

No hard feelings to anyone.

With that said, I am a certified bow ed instructor but I have refrained from teaching even one single class because my thinking is too much off center to what they teach and believe.

I am a very poor artist but here's Lou's photo doctored a bit to show the similar placement of the leg and shoulder bones.

I placed the bones about how I feel they would lie on the quartering bull on Lou's photo (and yes Lou your checks in the mail) about the way it would look if you could see the bone. I also placed a black dot in the middle of Danny's red dot to show an approximate distance between the bone and his arrow.

It's good to note that you want your arrow to be above the point where the leg bone meets the scapula. I think an arrow anywhere in the yellow dot would kill that elk very fast. But Danny's placement is about as perfect as you could have for that shot. His arrow most likely will take out some of the major arteries coming off the top of the heart and continue on through the lobe of the far lung. I doubt very much a bull hit like that will live much more than 10 seconds and probably less.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

I've been on this site for a long time and have read all the debates about the frontal shot, but this is the first time, that I can remember, being shown where to shoot on a severely quartering to animal. It sure seems doable.

I'm sure I could put it right there on a foam elk, but during the "moment of truth" it's a different ballgame, at least for me. I'm not that good.

As I get more kills under my belt, I might get there some day.

Thanks again for the info!

But I might shoot GG's wood stove if in the right frame of mind after a couple of camp Scotches, if I felt comfortable with the shot angle. I don't yet have a trophy wood stove on my cabin wall.

:^)

Bill, as often as we've seen that bull lately in different threads, I wouldn't mind seeing Bake's image superimposed on his ugly mug, too!

I'll do a search on the site for more info.

Thanks for your contributions to the site.

6 yards is the same sight setting as my 30 yarder.

You should practice a 5-6 and 10 yarder to see where your at. A LOT of hunters don't think about the really close shots.

I would prefer a little more angle one way or the other for sure. It can be done, not saying it can't, my second elk (a cow) was a little more straight on than that and made it maybe 40 yards, over in seconds. Sure is nice to see em go down, but blood trail wouldn't have been any problem if you could keep it off your pants in the grass. That shaft came out on the off side hindquarter and on the ground a couple feet behind her. I know it was a cow, but that an arrow could pass through 3/4 of an elk impressed me. Those sharp sticks are something else.

That thing is in ID, it's getting some carbon and steel some how. But I'd likely wait on him just a bit. He turns a few degrees one way or the other, just swings the door open, "come on in!".

But then I saw the rest of that GQ photo shoot Lou. =D

Thanks.

As mentioned many times before in these threads, it is a very lethal shot under the right conditions. I have seen it done many times over the years.

Also mentioned many times before in these threads - an elk can also wheel, bolt, duck, jump or whatever on a BROADSIDE shot. The many variables to be considered in the "moment of truth" become much more clear through experience.

Good discussion.......as usual.

Not my dots but rather a photo from another thread that shows the bone structure.

If I were to shoot that elk, I would aim for the blue dot.

I would like to see one of those skeleton pics from the front on an elk.

The good news on a situation like that is #1) those spikes don't have a clue anyway, 2) the body language of that drinking animal is optimal for little motion on a close shot.

Last fall as many of you know I had a Colorado elk permit, so I knew I would not be able to spend much time hunting elk or deer in Utah, so I ended up shooting a spike. I came home and immediately deboned the animal and then I took some photos of the front leg so that I could clone it over the photo of a live elk.

In the photo I posted above, I left the drawn outline of the bone structure and then cloned the real size and shape scapula and leg bones onto the spike. This gives a far better representation of where a person can and should aim and be able to hit without hitting those major bones.

In reality the area of bone involved is probably almost half that shown in the artist’s rendition.

Below the main photo I just enlarged the same photo so it would be easier to see.

One should note that both the red and blue dot would clearly miss the heavy, front leg, bones structure. With the angle the red dot is actually a better hit than the blue. For safety’s sake, half way between the two dots would be perfect.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Bigdan, as BB will attest, I’ve killed “lots of bulls” and I still don’t have ice water running through my veins…will you please teach me that secret…oh wait, that’s why I bowhunt! I love it when that adrenaline engine kicks into high gear!!

That’s the magic pill…learn how to operate when the adrenaline is doing its thing….

Have a great bohwunt. BB

sigh.....

Buddy smoked a nice mulie with that shot a couple years ago. Lethal.

From elevation,the pyramid of lethality decreases as the animal starts to quarter.Do not forget the "Z" axis as the spheroidal shape causes the scapula to narrow the kill zone from that prospective.

I haven't seen many posters here advocating the "V" while in a treestand type scenario and would advise accordingly.

As animals quarter to (even worse on waterholes where shoulders are below hips while drinking)the "V" narrows even more.Basic geometrical principles work against us more than from the ground FWIW

So I might do it again, but I'd want more light to make a quick recovery.

Yeah, the recovery was my concern from the moment I decided to take the shot. No worry that the animal would not be down quickly.

BTW, I was in a treestand but the height difference was less than 10', and the deer was 30 yards out. If the shooting angle was steep, I don't think I would take the shot.

Must have been a hot dry summer. Best shoot him before winter takes him!

But if presented the angle the Antelope is showing with its head up on the next photo down then I'm all over that one. I have a bit of room for error, the shot would be placed just to the left of that small black vertical slash. I've taken several bulls & bucks with that shot, they do not go far! It's one I feel comfortable recommending, the other I would not! I'm not here saying ones shouldn't do this or that, it's a personal decision but weigh ones odds carefully on those very marginal shots, you have to live with it once that arrow is released!

Never let your decision be one of haste. Don't allow thoughts to creep in that this is the 1st animal I've had in range all week & may not see another I just need to get an arrow in him somewhere & I'll worry about the rest later. It's thoughts as this that can lead to heartache & frustration in many cases. Make sure those heads are very very sharp once they enter an animal. Good Luck everyone!

ElkNut1

I'm asking because I hunt with a longbow and doubt I could place an arrow within an inch or two of where I thought it should go in real world situations.

My only experience with this shot was on a bull I called in back in 1998 and tried to shoot him as he stood looking at me at embarrassingly close range. I tried to shoot behind the big bones and evidently got one lung, because he went off a ways and was coughing up blood while I watched. He walked off and I never saw him again.

For you guys who advocate this shot, how many times have you tried it and failed to recover?

Doug (stillhunter) nice bull. When was that?

Personally I don't "advocate" a frontal or head-on shot with elk, but I always catch myself responding to the "can't be done" or "never should be done" comments. There are a lot of variables to be considered with ANY shot, and I have let many bulls walk that were quartered to or head on because things didn't look or feel right. I haven't lost one to a quarter to or head on, but it could happen, and I have never said it won't. I have lost an elk, and I have tried to learn from it.

I personally don't care for quartering away shots where there is a potential for the rib cage to deflect the arrow, but yet most bowsiters will tout that shot as their most preferred. I have also seen the so-called "slam-dunk" broadside shot go bad on several occasions. I suppose our own personal experiences shape our opinions on this topic.

BTW, Congrats on your elk this year, I did see a picture and he is a fine looking bull.