For some reason my bow tunes with my rest considerably left of center shot (Mathews Z7, 28", 65#, 100gr tip 395gr total arrow weight) Carbon express Maxima Hunter 350, 28.25 arrow length. Paper tunes with Bullet holes, walkback tunning places all arrows vertically, and I can shoot fairly well at all ranges. Only issue is most all broadheads group right of field points except the 100gr g5 Strikers. I'd really like to shoot 125gr montecs or VPA's but they are quite a bit further right of the field points. But its way out of center shot and BH flight is telling me to move rest further left! and I cant go any more - I am So much out of center shot that the left tine of my QAD is aligned with the far right of the mathews grip! I just received my new tourqueless grip (havent shot it yet) but with the narrower grip, the left tine of my QAD is now hanging in the open. Basically, if I cant get my rest closer to center shot, I will not be able to use th enew grip - as it will not take too long before a twig or brush breaks the arow rest off.
Trophy 8 – responded: HockyDad...Something is wrong, if you tourque the bow that much, no rest position is going to change the problem. Either the bow is way off specks, draw length is wrong or an adjustment in form is needed.
I - Posted Trophy, Have checked specs several times and are in line with published specs from mathews site. I've had a few very good shooters paper tune to the same rest position and they have watched my form and say there isn't anything wrong. I can consistently group arrows out to 60 yards (all I have pins for) and only see a progressive expansion of the group - not a blow up. Also, watching arrow flight - and arrow is flying like darts. That is what is frustrating. Something appears wrong - but what.
X-Man - Posted HockeyDad, You are likely torquing the crap out of the grip and have found a rest position that compensates for it. Without watching you shoot, I can't do more than speculate, but it's not uncommon. The same torquing issues can drive some shooters to too light of an arrow spine. The weak spine can compensate for the hand torque, giving what appears to be good tuning on the range when standing perfect, but hunting situations can and will change things.
MTcountryboy - Posted X-man is probably right. Sometimes it's hard to see torque issues even with someone watching. Have someone else shoot your bow to see if they have the same issues (someone experienced ) Mathews big grips are easier to torque than some other bows. It's just math any pressure off center of the grip is amplified by the size of the grip. the size of the grip is comparable to the length of a lever. this is not an issue if you are not torquing the bow, but will make it worse if you are. I assume you have tried more spine, but if you haven't I would suggest going to a stiffer spine and a heavier tip.
Spike Bull Posted - The new handle should be put on immediately and then retune. Many people have trouble with the stock handle. I suspect that x-man is correct. It is possible that you have cable creep and/or spine issues. The 350s seem a little heavy with a 100 grain head. I believe you have made an error in your stated arrow length of 20.25"!?! It is common for the buss cable on single cams to experience considerable creep. I would check the draw weight and if it is not exactly where it is supposed to be at max then take a few twists in the buss until the weight comes to the stated max, then check for cam lean as one side of the yoke may have crept more than the other. Then reset center shot at about 13/16". What is the actual length of your arrows?
I Posted Whoops - thanks Spike - Arrow length 28.25. I have had several guys (experienced, good shooters) try the bow and they paper tune it right where I am at or slightly less out of whack - but still bad. I do not strangle the bow. I have looked closely to see where/if I may be touching the sides of the grip to impart torque but cant find anything. As far as how I grip the bow - Open/relaxed fingers - grip running down fat part of thumb/palm of hand like its supposed to. New grip is on and will be shotting it this afternoon to see if it helps. I do notice that the torqueless grip "seats" better in the hand, but dont notice anything different in how the bow 'sits' at full draw. I really want to shoot the 125gr heads (like a g5, hellraiser, or VPA), but... Wasnt able to get BH to fly like FP until I tried the 100gr G5 striker. On Tuesday (before my new grip arrived) I tried to impart serious torque on the bow during the shot. Basically strangled the grip and torqued it right and left - I mean a serious tourqu-n. Result was I shot about 5" left or 5" right of my aiming point at 30 yards.
Trophy78 - posted With open fingers and the matthews grip, its possible your putting side pressure on the grip without realizing it? Basically your palming the grip thus putting side pressure on the bow. This is also common with a short draw length.
I posted: here are 2 pics that show the centershot and 2 pics of my grip. Pictures make it seem terrible, but remember - at 40 yards I have BH and FP hitting same point of impact and I can group them fairly well. This is the current setup looking down arrow shaft. (next one will be looking down the true centershot)
Do you or a friend own a long target stabilizer? If so get it and screw it into your bow. Look at how the arrow lines up in relation to your rest before you draw and then see what it looks like when you draw. If you are torquing you will see it change in relation to the arrow.
Another thing is to check the idler wheel lean. I am not a single cam guy but if I am not mistaken if you put an arrow on the side of the idler wheel the tip should cross the bowstring somewhere around the nock area. Mathews guys can chime in on that to confirm.
Something seems very wrong here, but we need more clues....
DO u shoot with a open hand or do u close yr hand before u release?
People have misconceptions about grip torque. Just because the fingers are open doesn't mean the bow isn't being torqued. Also your "grip" isn't all about your hand, much of the grip is predetermined by your arm position.
IMO a grip torque problem with too long of draw is "pushing" the bow/grip away, as best I can describe it. Side pressure on the grip as the arm is trying to lock out and extend straighter, "pushing" the bow away from you.
Personally I like to make sure my elbow is turned out and a good bend in it. Turning it out helps with the proper angle of your hand, almost a 45. Rotates the wrist up and more out of the way. You don't want the bow to make a line through the middle of your hand/wrist and up your arm. The center of the wrist should be to the side, the line should come back between where your wrist meets your thumb.
Hard to tell from the pics but it looks like the elbow is rotated down in a more locked out position. You get most pressure on the inside contact with your bow hand (right handed it would be on the left side of the grip.) and less out on the thumb which would put the pressure in the center line of the grip. I like the feel of almost "hooking" the bow with the base or heel of my thumb. That grip looks like the line goes right through the middle of your wrist.
my $.02 and worth every penny..... =D
I'm not saying your issue isn't torque related, just offering an alternative solution that's easier yet more expensive....
Just know when I start torquing a few things that help bring me back.
I've heard/seen plenty of folks shoot very well, better than me, locked out (elbow down) but for me it tends to bring my hand down in a more vertical position rather than at an angle. Elbow out it's easier to bring my hand in the position I want. I also get a touch more string clearance for odd angles and clothing and stuff. And I've broken that wrist before, the arm too for that matter.
Spike and x-man and many others know form much better than I do for sure. If archery form were typing I'm certainly a modified hunt and peck....
I started by shooting through paper with the new grip. This was the one time a bullet hole was not a good thing. Same rest position, same tune, same way out of whack rest position. Immediatly went into screw this mode: Put on my 125 gr field tips (What I want to shoot instead of the 100grs), dug my heels in, and set about correcting the issue by torquing the crap out of the bow on purpose to see its affect. 20 - 30 shots later, I had a good idea that somehow I was applying pressue to the left side of the grip and was able to visualize the torque by watching the arrow/rest/sights and could predict to some degree what the tear would look like.
So throwing caution to the wind, I moved the rest in closer to center shot and started screwing with my grip. Rotated my wrist a little (45 degree thing and kept all grip out of valley), hooked my thumb a little and then release another arrow... low tear? Thinking it was pure luck, I tried again, and to my amazement produced a carbon copy tear. truly not believing what I was seeing - I tried a 3rd time with same results. Pushing my luck even more, I relocated my D-loop a bit higher and produced 3 really pretty bullet holes.
After a bit of discussion and having someone else punch a really ragged hole through the paper I moved to the 5 spot target - gang adjusted at 20 yards then stepped back to 30. The next 30-40 shots were a test of nerves in trying to adjust to the new grip and let it occur natural instead of forcing it but was making progress.
Sorry guys - I cannot shoot with a high wrist - period. the heel of my palm/thumb is always gonna sit on the grip. Stringing shots left right when trying to make the grip more automatic was bad enough, but stringing them up down only added to the frustration.
Regardless I was able to get comfortable with it. I could get 2 outta 3 shots to do what they needed, and got the sight dialed in to where I needed it, and moved to broadheads. Still taking the all or nothing approach I screwed on 3 125gr montecs and let rip at the styrofoam and put 3 FP in the target bale. I must say that I just kinda stood there dumbfounded - it wasn't too bad I was still fussing with the repeatable nature of the grip a bit. I was beginning to think it might just work out.
So 4-5 sets of 3 PF and 3 BH sets, I finally figured out a sequence for setting my grip consistently: Rotate wrist, seat heel of hand, hook thumb and let it fly! and things finally fell into place. I just need to shoot and make the grip a bit more automatic and natural so in the heat of the moment I will not revert to my old style, but I think Im close - and Im shooting the heavier broadheads that I am wanting to shoot!
Here are pics of my last FP and BH shots - this was after well over 100 shots tonight. Field points are in the 5 spot (I pulled the center target shot a little)
Before changing this grip the 100 gr strikers were hitting where I aimed. The 125gr Montecs were right a complete dot and about 1/2 dot high so that slight raise of the D loop was really needed.
But somehow (I didnt plan it) I managed to understand (thanks to a lot of the above posts) what kind of torque could be applied to the bow and what affect it had on the paper tune before I started changing things. And I think that is what helped.
I feel your problem sheds light on the subject of BH tunning in regards as to why many have flight/point of impact issues . Since shooting a bow is about repeating the same shot over and over, in your case, you shot very well with FT's but had issues with BH's for the most part. (having the rest far left was a good indicator something was wrong) You were able to repeat the shot consistanly, but with the wrong grip, in your head you were doing everything correct, but physically you were not. This is a good example of how important it is to develope a proper grip and release regardless of how well one shoots with FT's and especially when BH tunning where one cannot get both to hit the same spot. More often then not, improper grip plays a big role, just a slight change in hand position can make a big difference....HockeyDads experience is pretty much proof of that.
HockeyDad...remember my remark about just touching the string? Same principle with the grip, it doesn't take much to throw an arrow off.
