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This thread designated as DEBATE FREE. All responses must be Constructive and Positive.


Messages posted to thread:
bowslam 03-May-12
Stoney 03-May-12
Raghorn 03-May-12
BULELK1 03-May-12
WapitiBob 03-May-12
elkocd 03-May-12
Yates 04-May-12
TreeWalker 04-May-12
MNHunter 04-May-12
Kwik-Strap 04-May-12
bigbull 04-May-12
bowslam 04-May-12
azarchery 05-May-12
gobbler 05-May-12
pumatagger 05-May-12
flyingbrass 05-May-12
pirogue 05-May-12
bowslam 05-May-12
pumatagger 06-May-12
bowslam 06-May-12
KHunter 06-May-12
bigbull 06-May-12
bowslam 06-May-12
huntingbob 06-May-12
WapitiBob 06-May-12
KHunter 06-May-12
trkyslr 07-May-12
OFFHNTN 07-May-12
Dave 07-May-12
azhnter 07-May-12
Redman2003 07-May-12
bowslam 07-May-12
bowslam 07-May-12
FarBeyondDriven 07-May-12
bowslam 08-May-12
Matt 08-May-12
Redman2003 08-May-12
bowslam 08-May-12
Kwik-Strap 08-May-12
WapitiBob 08-May-12
Kwik-Strap 08-May-12
bowslam 08-May-12
bowslam 08-May-12
bowslam 08-May-12
Dave 08-May-12
sticksender 08-May-12
OFFHNTN 08-May-12
KHunter 08-May-12
Matt 08-May-12
bowslam 08-May-12
Dave 09-May-12
bowslam 09-May-12
Dave 10-May-12
midwest 10-May-12
Dave 10-May-12
Bill in MI 10-May-12
WapitiBob 10-May-12
BULELK1 11-May-12
wilbur 12-May-12
bowslam 12-May-12
knothead 12-May-12
herdbulll 13-May-12
Glunt@work 13-May-12
bowslam 08-Jul-12
azarchery 08-Jul-12
Dave 09-Jul-12
bowslam 09-Jul-12
wilbur 10-Jul-12
bowslam 10-Jul-12
wilbur 10-Jul-12
azarchery 11-Jul-12
Bigdan 11-Jul-12

3d range with my daughter.
by Michigan Hunter

Time at the wallow
by Lone Bugle

Four Young Bulls at Treestand Wallow
by CO_Bowhunter

Destroying the Myth
by shb

Put Your Video Clip Here!

From: bowslam Date: 03-May-12
Trying to see how many if any had a problem with this years Arizona elk draw. I have two friends (non-resident) that drew cow tags when they thought they applied for bull tags. (and lost all their bonus points) Both have applied for years for bull tags never a cow tag. I've heard of a third person with ten bonus points and he drew a cow tag in error. They're not happy. If this happened to you I would like to know did you 1)have a Arizona Pronghorn and Elk brochure or did you use the online info for hunt numbers, 2) if online did you write the hunt numbers down before moving back to the application process? Thanks

From: Stoney Date: 03-May-12
Two of my Indiana Amish friends burned 6 or 7 points applying for the late bull rifle hunt and ended up with cow tags in unit 27. The one brother had talked to a gal in the AZ Game Dept. and she made the recommendation to them. It was a crying shame they made that mistake and lost all of their preference points. I don't think they are coming cow hunting.

From: Raghorn Date: 03-May-12
I have a bull tag in hand, no problems.

Your friends SHOULD have keep records, I.E. the printed on line confirmation, or a photo copy of their paper App.

I think they would have a very good case with Game & Fish if they applied for bull tags and got drawn.

From: BULELK1 Date: 03-May-12
I do not think there is a problem with the Az. Elk draw----

I think the problem is with the applicants making a mistake with the simplified On-Line appl. process.

Of course most every one of us have made a mistake over the years in some state---on some species.

Good luck, Robb

From: WapitiBob Date: 03-May-12
if the hunt numbers were messed up we would have heard about it long before now.

From: elkocd Date: 03-May-12
They blew it! Not sure what you're asking.

From: Yates Date: 04-May-12
When you selected the hunt number they had a VERY complete description of unit #, date of hunt, etc.. I've not had any buddies that had issues.

From: TreeWalker Date: 04-May-12
I "mistakenly" drew the wrong tag in a state that has whitetail and mule deer hunts in same unit but on different tags. The mule deer hunt is a great tag. The whitetail, not so much. Drew the...whitetail tag. I messed up, though, in my application choice not the computer or staff at F&G.

From: MNHunter Date: 04-May-12
Everyone should print confirmations of every app you submit and keep them. I have 9 years worth in a file for each state at home.

If you dont do this, you can only blame yourself

From: Kwik-Strap Date: 04-May-12
I somehow applied for a cow tag too. I find it somewhat hard to believe I screwed it up, but it is possible. Luckily I did not draw it.

From: bigbull Date: 04-May-12
If they can prove they put the correct hunt numbers and they were different from what they drew, G&F will correct it. Otherwise, nobody to blame....

From: bowslam Date: 04-May-12
Stoney and Kwik-Strap..Thanks for your constructive and positive responses. Can you tell me your method (Kwik-Strap) with your app, were you going back and forth between online app and elk hunt numbers. Stoney can you (if possible) get that info on your friends. Thanks

From: azarchery Date: 05-May-12
you can request a copy of the app.

From: gobbler Date: 05-May-12
A very well known outfitter in AZ that I have hunted with 3 times told me there were a lot of issues with the online draw. It crashed at least 3 times due to overload.

From: pumatagger Date: 05-May-12
Several years ago I drew a tag in an area I was sure I didn't apply for. I did save a copy of my app and confirmed my recollection, but called them and asked them to research it. The Application folks found my application and corrected the mistake. Having said that, in my days as a biologist, I have research lots of applications and found that >90% were applicant errors.

From: flyingbrass Date: 05-May-12
do your own apps, only yourself to blame. I stopped using application services because they screwed up my app and one of the last year was Arizona Elk!

From: pirogue Date: 05-May-12
THE only problem to me is I have'nt got my refunds yet, and some have said they got theirs a week or two ago.

From: bowslam Date: 05-May-12
Hello San Juan. How are you doing? Thanks for your response.

From: pumatagger Date: 06-May-12
I'm doing well, how about you? I can't seem to draw any tags tho. A common problem.

From: bowslam Date: 06-May-12
My buddies can draw cow tags...but it turns out to be expensive as well as a big downer. Waiting for the NV draw to see what happens. Best wishes

From: KHunter Date: 06-May-12
I'd say more like 99.9 percent of guys who cry foul are in error and got exactly what they applied for. I made a mistake on an app this year and when the wrong result came out versus what I expected, I assumed I had made a mistake, checked my records and sure enough, I goofed. No mystery in that.

From: bigbull Date: 06-May-12

Submission Removed by the Thread Owner

From: bowslam Date: 06-May-12
KHunter..This thread is in regards to AZ elk draw only. Was your drawing mistake in regards to this threads subject? Thanks

From: huntingbob Date: 06-May-12
Will Az let turn the tags back in and keep your points?

From: WapitiBob Date: 06-May-12

From: KHunter Date: 06-May-12
Bowslam are you asking if I read the thread title before opening? Yes. So basically your buddies made the same error I what I was trying to say.

Did your buddies save a record of their application as turned in? If not then they really do not know for certain what code was on the application and do not have much to complain about until they do see the proof of the error.

From: trkyslr Date: 07-May-12
This year the hunt codes for specific gender and units changed and I knew it before submitting my app. Every year a code can change so better to double check then assume it was the same code as last year before submitting your apps.

From: OFFHNTN Date: 07-May-12
I agree with MNHunter and the others that said make a copy. I have a receipt/copy of every app I have sent in for every state. It helps me remember what unit, species, state, sex, etc. I have applied for, plus would help solve any issues should the G&F screw up.


From: Dave Date: 07-May-12
This happened to me as well. I know that I did not apply for the cow elk tags for two reasons. One, I didn't want to hunt cows and two, I have another Yukon hunt scheduled for the same time as the hunts that I supposedly applied for. In checking my receipt though, it says I applied for those tags. So, I figured I had no recourse. Now, it sounds like there may have been a glitch in the online application process if others had the same thing happen. If I was the exception, I'd understand and chalk it up to a typo or something. Sure, I guess I should have compared my receipt to what I thought I had applied for and I certainly will in the future. But something smells in AZ if this happened to more than a few individuals.

From: azhnter Date: 07-May-12

Submission Removed by the Thread Owner

From: Redman2003 Date: 07-May-12
Two years ago, I was drawn for a deer tag in AZ that I did not apply with paper applications (but I made a copy)

I called the Game and Fish, the immediate response (click click click...typing on the keyboard) your correct you did not apply for that hunt. Let me run some numbers and call you back.

A day or so later get a call back, you would not have been drawn for the hunts you applied for. You can keep the tag or return it for a bonus point.

The Game and Fish knows what hunts one applies for and based on application number if they would have been draw . THEY will make it correct if a mistake happened.

When I applied on-line this year, it clearly stated the hunt I was applying for, I printed the receipt and was emailed a copy.

I have to assume if your friends drew the wrong elk hunt the game and fish on-line system made a mistake and it should be very easy for your friends to correct as they would have proof of what they applied for. If they don't have proof they are the mistake.

From: bowslam Date: 07-May-12
Redman2003..Tell me about this.."When I applied on-line this year, it clearly stated the hunt I was applying for"...did it give you a hunt number "3125" or did it say "3125 Archery-only bull hunt Area 4A?"

I have not seen the copies of the individuals receipts but it's my understanding it just gives the hunt number. Nevada application give the later so you would know if you have an error between a bull or cow hunt. Thanks for your reply.

Arizona doesn't have a system for hunters to return tags they don't want or made an error on like Nevada and as I understand it Colorado and maybe Utah.

From: bowslam Date: 07-May-12
Dave..Thanks for your response and my apologies for someone posting a negative comment. You say, "In checking my receipt though, it says I applied for those tags.", did your receipt show a hunt number only or state it was a bull or cow hunt? When you completed your application were you going back and forth between the online hunt information and the application or did you write down the hunt numbers then go to the application? Thanks again.

My friends have requested the computer printouts of their applications but I'm not sure that will show anything.

From: FarBeyondDriven Date: 07-May-12
i burned 6 points for a cow tag, not a noobie when it comes to apps and the Internet, 3 of my choices were cow which i still can't figure how that happens. sol.

From: bowslam Date: 08-May-12
FarBeyondDriven...Thanks for your response. You're not the only one scratching their head trying to figure out how this happened. If you have any further ideas regarding how you did your online application and how you got your hunt number I would like to hear them.

From: Matt Date: 08-May-12
Sorry to hear about your circumstance. If you do not elect to hunt on your tags, keep in mind there are some sick kids who might be happy to use them.

From: Redman2003 Date: 08-May-12
Our receipt (son, wife and I ) all showed the hunt and hunt description.

From: bowslam Date: 08-May-12
Redman2003...Thanks for taking you time to respond.

From: Kwik-Strap Date: 08-May-12
Mine receipt did not show descriptions just numbers. I will post it if I can get a moment to do so.

From: WapitiBob Date: 08-May-12
The receipts will show they picked Cow hunts rather than Bull hunts. They probably gave the regs a cursory glance then, when online, looked at the 3100 series hunts and went by date, ending up in the Cow hunt section. The hunt numbers weren't different between the printed regs and the online system.

From: Kwik-Strap Date: 08-May-12

Kwik-Strap's embedded Photo

Kwik-Strap's Supporting Link

I want to reiterate that I am not placing blame and it could have been my fault, but I was shocked when I discovered that I applied for a cow tag. Here is my receipt. It would really suck to have burned a bunch of points like some did here. Just trying to help.

From: bowslam Date: 08-May-12
Kwik-Strap...Thanks for your response. You can pm with the info so you don't have to post in public.

From: bowslam Date: 08-May-12
Kwik-Strap...Thanks for the photo. One of my friends applied for their first choice in the same unit you did. The correct number would have been on page 23 where the archery hunt numbers began. His second choice was area 10 (3136) which was a correct number. I believe the mistake would have been caught if the program gave a hunt description before the final "enter" button. My apologies to you for any negative posts.

From: bowslam Date: 08-May-12
Caution: Please do not post any negative comments or opinions regarding posters or their responses. Stick to the subject matter and your experience with it. Thank you.

From: Dave Date: 08-May-12
My receipt is just like Kwik-straps. It does not clarify bull or cow--just gives the hunt number. I'm nearly 100% certain I didn't make the error that WapitiBob is suggesting as I have a Yukon hunt booked for this year and purposefully didn't put in for hunt dates that might conflict with that hunt. So, not only did I draw a cow tag that I don't want but I drew in a time period that I can't use. Now that I know there are others who may have experienced similar technical glitches, I'm curious whether AZ F&G figures out what might have happened.

From: sticksender Date: 08-May-12
I'm trying to learn from this thread myself, so as to avoid any future problems on my own AZ apps.

Are you guys saying the hunt code on your receipt is not the hunt code you selected?

From: OFFHNTN Date: 08-May-12
I'm not passing judgement on AZ G&F, but with all the complaints going on, do you think it's possible a person entered the right information, hit the submit button, then due to computer problems things got scrambled and messed up and had a different sex or unit randomly assigned? You hit the "print receipt" button without really looking it over, only to find the problem months later?


From: KHunter Date: 08-May-12
Sticksender,. In my case i had the regs page you posted in view on my ipad while applying, i failed to see the antlerless off to the right side! Mostly likely because I had it zoomed in and that part of the page was cut off. My mistake, I was in a rush to get out the door. I keyed in on the unit and dates and input 3 great choices. All cow....whoops. I expect a number of guys similarly failed to look closely at the right hand side of the table. Which may be why they feel certain the mistake was not theirs (they double checked that the codes they typed in were the ones in the regs but may not have done the screen shot I did that proves it truly was their mistake). They, like me, double checked the hunt codes and missed the forest for the trees in the process. it happens to the best of us :-)

3 points burned permanently since I will still have 2 going into next years draw. Not the end of the world but a bummer all the same. Have drawn a great az tag in the past with 12 points so not a newbie at this, I just screwed up.

From: Matt Date: 08-May-12
I think a good question is whether guys who think AZ DF&G screwed up are geting cow tags in the units they meant to apply for a bull in (likely having done some variation of what KHunter did) or are guys getting tags in units they did not intent to apply for at all?

From: bowslam Date: 08-May-12
I haven't seen any information that there is a computer problem with the draw. In my opinion the bad part of all this is that Arizona doesn't have a commission approved (hunter friendly) procedure to return these unwanted tags no matter who's at fault. Other states do. Nevada refunds the tag fee, keeps the application fee and restores the bonus points. I'm not knowledgeable regarding Arizona cow tags as to if they are sold out each year. I would think Arizona residence would use them. Thanks to all of your replies.

From: Dave Date: 09-May-12
"I'm not passing judgement on AZ G&F, but with all the complaints going on, do you think it's possible a person entered the right information, hit the submit button, then due to computer problems things got scrambled and messed up and had a different sex or unit randomly assigned? You hit the "print receipt" button without really looking it over, only to find the problem months later?"

That's exactly what I'm saying.

From: bowslam Date: 09-May-12
Dave...At this time I don't see any evidence of that. What I can say is those that I have had contact with here and elsewhere are all experienced individuals that have applied many years in multiple states. Why, and this is my opinion, is there all of a sudden a problem with the Arizona draw. First year back to online application? Hard to say. But these individuals have lost a good deal of money buying licenses to get bonus points to end up with none and an unwanted $590 cow tag. And it appears the wildlife department can do nothing to help as there has not been a procedure put in place by the wildlife commission. I can suggest that all involved write a letter to Arizona Wildlife Commission asking for an appeal and return the tag with it. Some are challenging the tag fee with their credit card company but allowing the application fee.

From: Dave Date: 10-May-12
Might be helpul in knowing what units/tags were applied for and what ended up on everyone's receipt. If there was a trend, it might point to a data entry error on the AZ computer program for the drawing application.

From: midwest Date: 10-May-12
With all the money and points on the line, I guarantee you I am printing out my receipt and double checking the choices.

How many here have done that and discovered the receipt showed different hunt codes than what you entered?

From: Dave Date: 10-May-12
No doubt I will in the future as well. I just assumed with the strict limitations on the number of tags drawn and implications of errors in the system, that the system would be double-checked and fool-proof. Apparently not--or so it seems. I'll definitely check all my receipts from here on out rather than just filing them away.

From: Bill in MI Date: 10-May-12

You can download free PDF creators that make this a cinch. I have a general hunting folder and a sub folder for each state. When the screen that comes on where you can print your application/licence/whatever, hit the print button as normal but choose your PDF creator 'printer' and save the file to your folder.

Easier and more accessable for me than paper. Its great for keeping track of where I've applied in the past.

From: WapitiBob Date: 10-May-12

A no brainer

From: BULELK1 Date: 11-May-12
Fred---PM sent

Good luck, Robb

From: wilbur Date: 12-May-12
If any of you tuned into the AZFG Commission meeting yesterday; I believe it continues today. They have 2 items on the agenda that address "problems with the draw". I still have one more phone call to make on Monday and then I'll be able to pontificate a bit on the subject concerning "problems with the draw".

It can be accessed via their web site.

From: bowslam Date: 12-May-12
wilbur...Thanks Tom. Those involved with this were aware of this item on the agenda and a phone message was left for Doug Cummings on Thursday but has not been returned. Wasn't able to listen in as NV wildlife commission is meeting also. Look forward to your post about what was said. I'll add anything my buddies hear.

From: knothead Date: 12-May-12
I was looking at the agenda and I did not see anything that said "problems with the draw". The only two items I saw listed related to the draw were the following:

"10. 2012 Elk and Pronghorn Online Draw Briefing. Presenter: Doug Cummings, Information Systems Branch Chief. The Department will provide a presentation on the 2012 elk and pronghorn online draw.

11. Credit Card Issues Related to the Draw. Presenter: Lizette Morgan, CFO, Business and Finance. The Department will provide the Commission with a presentation on possible remedies for online elk and antelope draw applicants who were denied permits as a result of a large credit card security breach involving a payment processor for VISA and MasterCard. The Commission may vote to establish eligibility criteria and provide a remedy for eligible applicants."

I'm curious to know if there were computer application problems with the online system as it will help me make my decision for how I apply in the future. Looking at these two agenda items it does not sound like their were problems from their end, but who really knows?

Did anyone actually see/hear the discussion at yesterdays board meeting? What did they say or decide? Unfortunately G&F is usually not very speedy when it comes to posting meeting minutes. By the time we get the info this draw deadline may have passed.

From: herdbulll Date: 13-May-12
I saw part of the web cast and they had 38 or 39 people who drew and had a letter from their credit card provider stating that they were affected by the Visa breach.

The commission voted to issue the tags or restore preference points to these people if they do not want the tags.

They stated that approximately 500 people had credit cards rejected for other reasons.

From: Glunt@work Date: 13-May-12
Colorado has an "E" (either sex) "M" (male) or "F" (female) as part of the code. Makes mistakes less likely.

From: bowslam Date: 08-Jul-12
Update: There has been some movement on this issue and a group is forming to address drawing issues with the Arizona draw to the Department and Commission. If you or if you know of someone that had a problem with this years draw and would like to be included in requesting changes to the Arizona draw you can pm me for an address and phone number to contact.

From: azarchery Date: 08-Jul-12

Submission Removed by the Thread Owner

From: Dave Date: 09-Jul-12
There were a number of problems with this year's draw including credit card issues, cow tags being given to applicants who applied for bull tags and inability to access the website. There is evidence to support the claims of wrongdoing on AZ DFG's behalf. We are trying to complile a list of hunters who have been affected by this so that everyone can benefit from the end-result of this.

From: bowslam Date: 09-Jul-12
Thanks Dave.

From: wilbur Date: 10-Jul-12
The Elk antelope draw was a huge roller coaster of emotions for me. First I was drawn as a NR with only 4 points. Then rejected because my credit card was declined. Received a letter from AZGF asking me to provide a letter from Master Card stating that my card was involved in a security breach and they would give me the tag. I provided the letter but was then told I did not meet the criteria. Keep in mind they never told me what the criteria was. I called AZGF and finally got in touch with the CFO. She listened to my tale and asked me, "now that you know what the criteria is do you think you can provide the information?" I responded with yes I already have the documentation you need. She said email it to me and I'll get you your tag. I did and she did. It took another 3 weeks but she was true to her word and I have an Arizona Archery Bull Elk tag in hand.

From: bowslam Date: 10-Jul-12
wilbur.. How did you go from an antelope draw credit card problem to receiving an Arizona Archery Bull Elk tag? Did I miss something!!

From: wilbur Date: 10-Jul-12
Meant to say the Arizona elk antelope draw. I put in for an elk tag.

From: azarchery Date: 11-Jul-12

Submission Removed by the Thread Owner

From: Bigdan Date: 11-Jul-12
The online works in every other state. So az should be able to do it. Last year in wyoming I was left out of the draw. I had max points so it should have been 100% draw but I got left out of the draw. Wyoming steeped up to the plate and gave me my tag. And they never figured out why I was left out of the draw.

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