Mathews Tuning Question
I need a little input with regard to paper tuning my Mathews Heli-m and Monster. Normally, I challenge Eyad with my neurotic tuning questions but he's fishing the Canadian wilderness right now so wanted to ask some of the other bowmasters on here. Bear with me as I have seven photos to post with my question. Thanks for your help...
Ok, so I start out with my arrow more or less at a 90 degree angle to my string and the arrow centered over the shelf...
My first shot thru paper is tearing upward and right...
Little by little I move my rest left and shoot, move it a little more left and shoot until the rightward tear is gone...
Now I gradually move my Whisker Biscuit downward to correct the upward tear until I get close to a bullet hole..
The final position of the arrow on the bow looks like this, pointing slightly more downward than when I started which seems ok...
But in order to overcome that pretty extreme rightward tear, I ended up having to move the rest quite a bit left and my arrow is now really pointing off to the left. Even when I come to full draw, the arrow is still pointing off to the left. It is shooting a bullet hole thru paper but is this acceptable for it to be pointed so far left? Happens with both of my bows and the arrow spine is correct for the poundage/arrow length, etc. thanks again...
Hey Chris, I had a similar issue with my Tatical. What I did was crank both limbs all the way down, then back off one at a time evenly to your weight preference. Keep in mind, your string must stay centered or close to the timing hole on the cam. After that, set center shot and check string and front of arrow do they both go center down the arrow. This is what worked for me, maybe worth a try, I'm no expert, but the guys on the Mathews forums had me start there. Lastly, I'm told a tight nock will cause some of the issue. Best of luck, you'll get it.
The "funky" Mathews grip doesn't help and could be contributing to the outward angle of the arrow. In other words "torque". I bought the Heli=m Tactical this year with the new grip and tuning was easier than any Mathews I've ever owned.
Also agree with the above that the serving is sometimes fairly "fat" on Mathews bows creating too tight of a nock.
Had a couple Switchbacks that drove me insane trying to fine tune and finally wrote the problelm off as being the torqued up grip.
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Chris, I had roughtly the same issue this winter/spring before my africa trip. One thing I learned is that the Human body can 'automatically' do things in a pretty consistent manner. The root of my problem was hand torque, and it took a while to overcome it, but a new grip and lots of range time I am now able to shoot a lot closer to center shot and I can shoot 4-5 different broadheads with my field points.
Take a look at this thread from a few months ago - my original centershot was every bit as bad as yours.
Provided idler and/or cam is not badly leaning, I agree with the above. Grip torque. You just moved the rest over to compensate for it.
all of my older mathews, 96 featherlight, 04 outback, had the same high nock, left arrow adjustment needed for perfect flight. after they shot like a dream i never cared what it looked like.
thanks alot for the advice. will work on it this weekend
Try shooting with a lower wrist grip, and make sure the grip is on your thumb. I think it's grip torque too, I dealt with the same thing.
Kentuck - That is what I said until I tried shooting broadheads. I was not able to get my BH and FP to hit the same spot - I kept blaming it on the broadhead. After enough people told me it was me and torqu, I set about to correct the issue. Now I can get the same impact with *most* BH and my field points.
"common issues tuning a mathews monster bow" on you tube.
Cam lean is a huge issue with monster bows, especially the early ones.
stop paper tuning, shoot for groups, 1/32 adjustment will do wonders verses paper tuning.
stop paper tuning, shoot for groups, 1/32 adjustment will do wonders verses paper tuning.
I would also advise getting away from paper tuning. I know it's popular, but there are always tons of guys in all the tuning threads with similar problems....they chased the perfect bullet hole and ended up with unshootable results.
The desired result of all the tuning efforts is to get good clean efficient arrow flight. Paper tuning is just one indicator that you are somewhere in the vicinity, at one close distance.
A better, more useful indicator that your flight is clean and good is your ability to group fixed blade BH's with field points (same point of impact) out to forty yards.
Anything that prevents good clean arrow flight will also prevent BH's from grouping with FP's at distance, so group tuning is a far more worthwhile test of arrow flight and tune.
Getting that perfect bullet hole in paper still quite often leaves you with arrows that will turn pretty much sideways at thirty yards. Tuning time and effort would be much better spent setting the bowup as you did to start, everything centered, then adjusting to bring FBBH and FP POI together at hunting range.
That said, I do agree that your hand torque could well be the major problem. Best way I've found to check that out is lube the grip or your hand with something really slick, like W-D 40 or some cooking oil, and see what happens to your point of impact. If it stays where it should be, you're not torquing the bow. If it moves, you are, and your best course of action is to change your grip technique until you shoot to the same POI with or without a slick bow hand.
Definitely worth a try to check for the torque first, because all the tuning effort will be pretty much wasted if you're torquing the bow anyway.
Don't worry about the POI being somewhere other than where your sight says it should be. As noted above, people can get very consistent at torquing the same amount and direction, and will often have st their pins while torquing the bow that way. Trust the POI you get with the slick hand, and adjust your form and then your sights to repeat that with your hand dry.
I had a similar problem a few months ago with a new bow. It ended up being a combination of Cam timing and my grip. We got the Cam timing figured out and then went to work on my grip (which was just fine on the last bow!). After a few small tweeks, all was well.
The bow I was having trouble with was a HCA X-11, which is very similar to the Monster.
My question is how do you know your arrow spine is correct with your set-up. Problem I see are shops telling people that they need a 400 spine for 60 pounds and 340 for 70 pounds. It depends on draw length and arrow length. This was true years ago. todays bows are more efficient. Causing more energy transfer to te arrow. I shoot 60-62 pounds out of my Z7Extreme and my set-up calls for a 340 spine arrow. I use Ontarget2 to get my arrow set-up ad tune from there. You can try a trial version from www.pinwheelsoftware.com. If your spine is correct I would agree with others as it being torque. I went with a focus grip on mine and it helped alot.
Try using a loose closed hand grip... sometimes open hand, especially with fingers straight out, can throw shots off too.
In my experience, your arrow is too weak. Easy way to tell is back your limb bolts off 3 turns and paper tune again. Worth a try.
change the grip on yr bow ,,, when is mathews goin to listen and install a good grip , heck there bows are 900.
The arrow appears to be too weak. And I agree with the broadhead tuning comment too. Nothing matters as much as having your broadheads impact with fieldpoints. Because as soon as you get bullet holes all you have to do is step up or back a few steps and you won't have bullet holes anymore if your set up is off. What I mean is it is possible to get bullet holes at ten feet even with a bad setup. You proved that. And there is no way your broadheads are going to group with your filedpoints with those adjustments. Paper tuning only gives a good indication if your arrow is dynamically tuned to your bow shot. This means the weight of the bow and length of draw vs spine, point weight and length of arrow.
Especially if it happens on both of your bows. What you think is the right arrow is too weak.
For 20 years I have been shooting Easton ACC's for hunting, in the same amount of years I have had several bows, I always tune the bow to the arrows. Some bows I shot at 67# the next bow would be 63#. It seems the arrow would dictate the speed it wants to travel. Everything else being equal, of course.
++ Agree with pybucks! Tune your bow to your arrow
hockey, i must have the finest torque in the world since i am able to shoot good to 70 with perfect arrow flight. its the grips on the older mathews, they promote the need for that tuning in my opinion. i have no issues with my hoyt maxxis as it has a much smaller grip.
I'd just screw on a mech and call it good..... LOL!
If that setup shoots FBBH to the same point as field points I'd be shocked. It's pretty rare I'm very far off if it shoots bulletholes at 5, 10 and 15 feet. Micro adjustments usually to dial in the broadheads.
I'd start all over which means make sure the bows are TIMED and set to factory specs. Anything less and you're spinning your wheels.
If you are still way out like that trying to papertune you either have grip or contact issues. Offhand I don't know if your arrow spine is on the stiffer side like I would like to see, but I wouldn't rule it out. Spine slightly off usually jumps up at you when broadhead tuning. It would have to be WAY off for paper.
Every time I've had things way out of whack, starting all over from scratch has helped. Timing (different than tuning) arrow spine, and form (grip AND draw length) before even tuning or it's a waste of time.
Thanks again for all the help. I started out simple by just resetting my arrow in a neutral position and shooting with a relaxed grip with the Heli-m. I used to pay alot of attention to not "torquing" my grip but perhaps I had gotten sloppy over time because by just letting the bow lay in my hand without clenching the grip, the right tear was eliminated. All I was left with was an upward tear. The upward tear was a little more pronounced than before, maybe because the bow was tipping forward a bit more without me gripping down so tight. I was able to fix that by lowering my rest. So it is shooting bullet holes with the arrow centered over the shelf now! I'll mess around with it a bit more including with my broadheads and also try the same on the Monster. Thanks again! Chris