My main concern with our current plan is the shooting of spikes. We are in an antler restriction county, where bucks wider than 13" inside or spikes are legal. I can't imagine the benefit of killing spikes. Most of them are yearling deer.
Unfortunately the states don't care if the #'s are low only a few hunters complain. When #'s are high ALL people complain, eating my bushes, all over the roads crop damage, Hunters complain the deer buck:doe balance Etc
All the TV shows advocate shooting does but they hunt ares loaded with deer and managed that way. With huge deer #'s and low controlled hunter density they advocate shooting does. Ares without the deer and unrestricted hunter access wipe out a herd in no time.
Most counties have unlimited doe tags for archery and firearms season. We have an 11 day "antlerless" season following the 10 day firearms season. Then an 11 day "alternative" season where any weapon except a centerfire or rimfire is allowed. As a landowner, every member of my family is GIVEN 7 tags. 3 are "any" deer and 4 are "antlerless" only.
Not seeing many deer this year compared to last year. again......Just because something is legal and/or allowed doesn't make it right! JMO
Kansas DID NOT have a 2 WEEK gun doe hunt prior to archery...and I have no clue where that came from.
We do have a nine day youth season for any deer, and archery and muzzleloader share about the first 11 days of archery season, again for any deer.
There was a two day whitetail doe season in mid-October, in the middle of archery season.
As for the non-resident buck/doe combo tag, that's a "gift" from the state legislature who continually think they know more about the state's herd than state biologists or the avid hunters who are paying attention to actual facts.
The legislature demanded a combo permit be offered, meaning for all hunters. Wildlife and Parks was able to confine it to just non-residents.
Yes, Kansas does allow the killing up of to about seven does in some management hunts,...but how many hunters do that? Seriously?
I know of one, a great BOWHUNTER, and the 20,000 acres or so he helps manage for wildlife has the kind of habitat that can hold high deer densities, and does.
I know of quite a few gun hunters this December that say they won't shoot a doe because numbers are too low....
I haven't taken a doe since 2006, and point that out to hunters with does in the back of their pickups bemoaning the low deer numbers.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED NJ!
That is what it's all about right there. State DNR's don't give a damn about the quality of the hunt, or the health of the herd. The ONLY thing they care about is money. To the point they will LIE about deer numbers to sell more licences to get more money. At least that is what's going on here in WI.
Another factor not mentioned is Insurance Companies and their power to influence F&G regs... In states where there are a large number of claims from vehicle/deer collisions, the Insurance Companies take a licking. A few years back I was told that a state (can't remember for sure but it might have been Ohio) was allowing hunters to kill does long after the herd was reduced to very low numbers....all because the Insurance Companies had some very good Lobbyists...
Of course, noone kills that many, 35 is the most I have heard of in one year and that was spread across several counties.
In the past few years, our deer population has continued to steadily increase over most of the area. few hunters will kill more than they can actually use or give away.
However, it is erroneous to say "...kill our deer." They are not your deer. They are the property of the state.
All of that is not to say, in some states the doe bag limit may be too liberal. That would be especially true in states with high unter density and limited habitat. However, it is almost always EHD that decreaases a deer population, not hunters. But if you combine and EHD outbreak with a high doe kill, you may certainly damage your deer population. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to micro manage deer on a statewide level.
I think main issues that will keep doe tags up are lime disease and car accidents
It takes more than crops to grow and hold them. Not proclaiming to know your situation just wandering. And have no intention of arguing about it. Be curious to see how many know these things. God Bless
Here on my land in southeast Ohio I still commonly see deer in groups of 6-10, and have seen as many as 24 deer at once from my back deck in the past year. This is on 100% hunted land, too. The numbers where I live are fine, but 15 miles away they may be very low.
If land is under the DMAP Program (quality mgt. program) is herd size allows more doe permits can be obtain to keep the herd size within mgt. limits.
Biologists say that at least 1/3 of herd population must be killed annually just to keep herd size in check. If overpopulation exist then more deer should be taken to get herd size in balance with carrying capacity.
Some areas of the state have been shot out and other areas are overpopulated. No real small management units exist like in states like Wy, Co., etc. We have 3 management area so real managemment cannot not really occur as needed.
We no longer have a true primitive weapon season with black powder guns. We have pseudo primitive replica guns that shoot real ammunition 35 cal, 45/70, 444 etc. It is a joke. Next year this season will all regular long rifles on private property and will be able to hunt does only.
All laws are really favoring the shooting of more does. Sometimes a good thing and other times a bad thing.
There is plenty of knowledge to go around in the whitetail woods. Not every hunter is a simpleton just wanting their deer. And not all of the knowledge is carried around by some little tick-turd measuring browse lines.
Really? Every year I hear of anglers over bagging by a lot. Coolers full of fish.
Some hunters have the same attitude. We had all time high deer numbers most every state a few years back and most states said the herds must be reduced. That is where things are today. There are still deer to hunt.
good luck to all, the dog
In the region I live in we have districts that are managed differently. Within our region you have all districts allowing does during the youth season before reg. season.
One district in the more populous areas and nearest the most roads, allowing 5 (that number changes some years it's 3 some it's 7) special doe "B" tags per person.
During years where the Fish and game feels the population in all districts are too high, there will be a one week either sex hunt during the regular season usually the first or last week (haven't seen that happen for 6-7 years).
Of course Mule deer and Elk are managed differently.
I would like to see the additions of an old geezer season where if you are over a set age you can hunt the youth season. Took Grandpa hunting with me the last couple years before he passed and he had chances at does, but never a buck, Just though he deserved increased odds like the kids. Not sure what age I would set.
oz
Growing up in PA, the harvest report card was optional and by reports not many hunters sent them in yet the game commission always referenced those numbers. I like the fact that certain states have check stations to get firmer harvest number. Back when I took a buck in IL, you even had to measure the jawline.
Tough to do, if not altogether impossible, but it would be interesting the see an independent report of the cycles of variables such as hunter participation rate, hunter success rate, hunter sightings, game camera sightings, car collisions. Then factor in known EHD or severe weather factors.
Just a natural ebb and flow perhaps ... herds decline due to overzealous bag limits, weather, EHD, habitat loss etc. License sales drop a little due to frustration from lack of success or sightings. Herd rebounds. Reports of success spawn more hunter interest. Kind of like the wolf/moose cycle on Isle Royale in Lake Superior.
Just my 0.02
The hardest thing for hunters to believe is that there is a huge difference between managing a particular area and managing a statewide or state segmented population. Also very few hunters understand that what they see is not always what is there. Once does become pressured as bucks are pressured, they are as hard to kill and often see as bucks.
When you understand herd state modeling, you realize it is not designed to make hunters happy. A deer population must be managed on three criteria: 1-Biology-is the management plan biologically sound for all wildlife? 2- Ecologically-is the plan sound from a ecological viewpoint. 3-Hunter satisfaction-is the plan what the MAJORITY of hunters want?
In a private management plan, those criteria can be manipulated.
On the other hand, people forget that a state's game populations must be managed...at least in part...for the satisfaction of all residents. If hunters want more deer, but farmers, motorists, landowners and several industries are pushing for lower numbers, it's not going to bode well for hunters.
In some ways, many states have a vested economic interest in maintaining a significant population of deer. They sell tags of course, and it's big money when added up. No deer means a big drop in income eventually...the piper will be paid. For many states the ultimate goal is to keep every group appeased to an extent, but no one group is running the numbers show.
Tough job since habitat, hunting pressure, and urbanization vary from county to county, heck even from township to township.
As long as you see dead deer along the interstate in your neck of the woods, don't expect the tags or seasons to be relaxed.
I really have a tough time seeing it as a bad thing. Sure, I'd love to go back to seeing 20+ deer a sit, but in reality, the farm I hunt doesn't have the habitat to support 20+ deer per square mile.
You could claim that Missouri's unlimited antlerless tags were the problem, but I know how many does were killed, and it hasn't been excessive. 3 or 4 does per year, back to 2005 or so, on over 600 acres.
EHD might be a factor, but I've found very few deer carcasses.
I imagine poor or nonexistent mast craps were the main culprit in the past 3 years.
Strangely enough, this year was probably the worst for overall deer sightings, and the farmers instituted an intensive rotational grazing program and halved the number of cattle, and this year there was more clover and forbs and weedy areas than ever before. Lots more forage than in years past, but still fewer deer
I might be imagining it, but it also seems that the woodland areas are producing more undergrowth in the last 3 years, even with drought conditions. Part of that I believe is somewhat the result of some ice storms that wreaked havoc on the canopy in the last few years, daylighting certain areas. But I also believe the lower deer population has played a role.
I guess I'm rambling, but overall, I'm still not sure that fewer deer isn't such a bad thing, at least in my area
Bake
Here in Vermont, the hunting is terrible. I saw 4 deer all bow season. We kill about 12,000 deer a year in all our seasons. Way down from what we used to kill 10-20 years ago. Yet the Vt F&W still say we have a very healthy herd. Everyone here sees it. There just arent that many deer. The Vt F&W has lost alot of money in license sales in the last couple years. We dont have hardly any non resident hunters and alot of people travel out of state because its so bad here. You would think with the huge decline in the herd that they would be making some major changes but they arent. Oh ya and we are also still the 3 deer state.
In a normal environment does need to be taken.
If it worked like that, the burden of expense would fall on the taxpayers. When everyone's taxes went up to pay for deer damage, the citizens of the state would call for herd reduction so severe you'd be lucky to find a deer track...let alone the deer that made it.
Not in Iowa. 78% of the deers annual diet consists of cultivated crops.
Do wild turkeys compete with deer for food resources? It is not uncommon in north central Wisconsin to see a hundred or more turkeys in a day but only 10 years ago or so there were NONE. I know that their diets don't mirror a whitetail's but there is some overlap. I've also noticed that a flock of turkeys will drive deer away from a food source.(like corn, for example)
I guess what I'm getting at is the fact that during the same time period(since about 2006) the whitetail population has been noticeably DECREASING, the turkey population has been noticeably INCREASING. Are the two related or is this simply a matter of management strategy?
Any thoughts here?
I have been looking into introducing turkeys on my land, currently none exist, but will not do so if it competes too much with the deer.
oz
Seriously, though, I've sat and watched flocks of turkeys run deer off feeders enough times to be convinced that there is at least some level of competition going on. I don't know what the extent is... that's why I'm asking.
Buck sightings down, doe sightings up.
I am struck by the concensus on this thread that hunters are sucking hind titty when it comes to game management. How much money are farmers or insurance companies putting into fish and game departments? It looks like there needs to be a revolution of sorts where the main group that cares about the long-term health and vitality of deer gets a LOT more say in how those resourcs are managed.
One option if the State resource agencies continue to be dominated by non-hunting interests who usually want to see a lot less of the resource is to use the private non-profit groups to do their own studies. It's sad when state biologists say there are lots of animals yada yada and we hunters have very little ability to rebut that except our own personal experiences.
If the kill-them-all farmers and insurance companies continue to pull the strings in the State agencies, at least hunters coudl then force them to be honest about what the true objectives driving management practices are.
Heck of a bunch of geese in the area, but haven't paid attention to where they go to feed.
second word = MONEY
Add them together and mix them up and it spells:
CORRUPTION or misuse of power
writer, very well said.
God Bless to all
2006: 10,800,000 vehicles registered.
2010: 12,027,351 vehicles registered.
2011: 11,788,425 vehicles registered.
2012: 11,840,362 vehicles registered.
The instant logic would be that a million more vehicles means a million more chances to hit one of our deer, but statistics wouldn't work just like that. As an example, a truck pulling a trailer counts as two registered 'vehicles'. I do think the increasing traffic puts more deer at risk (and drivers, too), which is actually why we'll see a deliberate effort to drop the deer numbers. The deer are managed around the human population and human desires. Competing desires mean someone (or maybe all) will not be satisfied.
We haven't been shooting Does on our hunting property for quite a while now, and we don't gun hunt it either. But it doesn't help much when neighboring properties are filling as many late season Doe tags as they can, happily issued by the DNR. And the sharp-shooting still continues for various reasons in various locales.
Somebody asked about turkeys. No, they don't affect deer populations as far as I can tell. When I lived in SE Iowa there was a robust population of both turkeys AND deer. And it was the same here in Illinois... until the CWD scare came along. Coyotes the same thing, lots of them during the high number years of deer and turkey... didn't phase either one of them.
Season Location, Page # for more information Season Dates Early Antlerless Firearm Private land in select DMUs, pg. 14 Sept. 17-18 Liberty Hunt Statewide, pg. 13 Sept. 17-18 Independence Hunt Private land statewide and certain public lands by application, pg. 13 Oct. 13-16 Archery Statewide Oct. 1 - Nov. 14 Dec. 1 - Jan. 1 Regular Firearm Statewide Nov. 15-30 Muzzleloading Zone 1 and 2 Zone 3 Dec. 2-11 Dec. 2-18 Late Antlerless Firearm Private land in select DMUs, see pg. 15 Dec. 19 - Jan. 1
Antlerless Deer License Purchase Limits (Per Hunter) An individual may purchase up to a daily limit of 2 antlerless deer licenses statewide, with the following exceptions: • For DMUs 487 and 452, an individual may purchase a total of 5 antlerless deer licenses per day. • For DMUs 419 and 333, an individual may purchase unlimited antlerless deer licenses per day. An individual may purchase up to a season limit of 5 private-land antlerless deer licenses statewide, with the following exceptions: • For DMUs 452 and 487, an individual may purchase a total of 10 antlerless deer licenses per season. • For DMUs 419 and 333, an individual may purchase unlimited antlerless deer licenses per season.
MS law allows 3 bucks and 5 does per year. If land is under the DMAP Program (quality mgt. program) if herd size allows more doe permits can be obtained to keep the herd size within mgt. limits.
Biologists say that at least 1/3 of herd population must be killed annually just to keep herd size in check. If overpopulation exist, then more deer should be taken to get herd size in balance with carrying capacity.
Some areas of the state have been shot out and other areas are overpopulated. No real small management units exist like in states like Wy, Co., etc. We have 3 management area for the entire state, so real managemment cannot not really occur as needed.
We no longer have a true primitive weapon season with black powder guns. We have "pseudo primitive" replica guns that shoot real ammunition 35 cal, 45/70, 444 etc. It is a joke. The first season only anterless deer can be taken. In the December 1-14 Primitive season, either sex can be taken. On private land long rifles and shotguns are permitted.
Hence, all laws are really favoring the shooting of more does. Sometimes a good thing and other times a bad thing.
Here in CO they are literally trying to kill ALL of the whitetails in much of the state to help the mule deer where they overlap, which is basically everywhere.
Ok, I get that from a biologist's standpoint. But then they still offer doe mule deer tags in those same areas, which doesn't seem to make sense on the surface. There are political reasons for locals/meat hunters. The other factor is the buck-doe ratio. With so much outfitting for $$$ where only bucks are shot, if only buck harvest was allowed the ratio would be even more whacked than it is now.
Biologists are pulled between herd dynamics, political pressure, and financial pressure in every state. They don't have an easy job, especially since every hunter believes he's also a biologist who knows more than "them edjukated fools".
Late firearm doe season after they have been bred.
Late firearm doe season after they have been bred.
In any state with hunting after mid-November, pregnant does are being shot by every sort of hunter. I'd suggest anyone with big concerns about the harvest dynamics in their state do what I do and talk personally with the lead biologists. They will be candid in a one-on-one conversation. You can learn a bit more about the real issues than from buddies down at the tavern.
This year's gun season kill stats are back to 1980's levels...
Ohio statewide total annual kill stats since 2010:
2010 - 261,260
2011 - 239,475
2012 - 219,748
2013 - 218,910
2014 - 191,455
2015 - 175,745
buckhammer's Link
I know the difference, but I know most farmers don't.
Second of all before we shed any more tears for the farmer who claims the deer ate all of his profits I would urge you to use the link I provided, EWG.org, and use the crop subsidy database and research the farmers in your area and look at the hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars they have received in (welfare) subsidy payments. Cry me a river somewhere else. Nobody subsidizes me when my business is slow.
And lastly I will take the word of a common sense outdoorsman who has spent a lifetime in the outdoors and knows his land and the animals that inhabit it over some runny nose college educated city kid who has a sheet of paper that states he is a wildlife biologist and works for the state DNR.
Up north, the wolf population has exploded with federal judge out east placing the Great Lakes and Yellowstone wolves back on the endangered species list...this after a few years of wolf seasons.
My bow season resulted in 8 total deer sighted...all year. Now, I'm 64 and have been at this since I was a kid.
Last Saturday I drove 160 miles up northeast through the heart of "deer country". I saw 1 road kill.
Guys I know who have the wherewithal to manage private property are doing well. They shoot only enough does to maintain a good sex ration, and practice QDM. I am not afforded that luxury.
Contrary to posts from some of our learned compatriots, starvation or malnutrition has never been an issue in my little corner of the world. For whatever reasons, our DNR has apparently decided to practically eradicate deer...but the tags keep on selling.
I haven't shot a doe in many years, and don't see that changing anytime soon.
I have no degree in forestry, wildlife "management", nor any other natural resorce program...just my 50 years hunting experience.
That said, we as hunters are our own worse enemy...just because we're issued a shoebox full of doe tags doesn't mean they must be filled. It would appear we have fewer hunters, and too many who just like to pull the trigger. Contrary to what some seem to believe, deer do not pop out of the ground each spring with the corn.
Sad state of affairs.
Next point is that hunters are their own worst enemy. The " I got a tag I will fill " it crowd are shortsighted ignorant louts.
Most big league wildlife and vertebrate biologists who are in serious decision-making positions (They only make recommendations, because the politics takes it up the ladder from there and the decisions are out of their hands) are hunters themselves, have spent their lives in the outdoors because they love nature, and pursued a difficult academic field knowing they'd never make much money at it because of that love and natural curiosity. They've have spent many years (and a lot of money) studying the dynamics of management principles and practicing the profession, sharing experiences and ideas with other peers around the country after they got that silly little piece of paper.
But politics and budget constraints are their worst enemy. Example: Here in Colorado the biologists for each Game Management Unit work with the field wardens and technicians to figure out how many moose licenses to recommend for each GMU. But because of budget cuts, they don't have any money to do actual moose counts so they have to guess at how many there are. They admit that. The hunters want more moose to hunt - because we funded the reintroduction back in the early '70s. The USFS wants fewer moose because of perceived overbrowsing of willows in some isolated areas. The Wildlife Commission, which sets seasons and approves tag numbers, wants to maximize revenue and make hunters happy, but also doesn't want to get cross-threaded with the Feds since the original deal for moose population limits has been multiplied way beyond the original agreement with the USFS. The CO Commission doesn't want any part of being sued by the Feds. The highly vocal wildlife watchers don't want any hunting where anyone can see it, which is where a lot of our moose live, so they work hard to close off areas to moose hunting. The Commission includes nonhunters, wildlife watchers, urban recreators, and at least one closet anti-hunter (I believe).
If you look beyond the final product to see how the sausage is made, there are a lot of ugly piece-parts involved in the package that eventually gets to hunters. Farmers and crop damage concerns, insurance companies, nonhunting wildlife lovers, city people who love deer until they eat their gardens, then want something done about it - but not KILLING, hunters who want more meat, hunters who want more trophies, hunters who just want more deer, rural-urban interface resource managers who want fewer deer in THEIR area, and the guys running the sausage grinder are the bean counters because money carries the most weight when you get to the bottom of it.
In 1961 a buck jumped across the road in front of our school bus and it was put in the paper. That was in NW Ohio in Putnam County near Ottawa. 1st deer I ever seen and I was 17 yrs old.
In 1972 I shot my 1st deer and the Willard local paper asked to put a picture and article in the paper. I believe in 1972 only about 8,000 deer was killed in the entire state of Ohio.
So yes deer kills are down but a whole lot better than the old days of no deer.
I have no wish to go back to the old days of all most no deer. In some areas the deer numbers have been reduced way too far.
But since deer are free ranging the pressure is on the farmer who owns the land the deer feed on.
I don't claim to know the answer on deer numbers in the future. But I feel the numbers will continue to fall due to pressure from farmers and Insurance Company to reduce the herd numbers.
.
Public land comprises only 4% of the land mass here. Public land deer kill accounted for 9% of the statewide total for the 2014-2015 year....and that's pretty typical. Public land success rate was 13% compared to 28% for private land hunters.
Nonresidents make up a disproportionate share of total hunters using public land in Ohio. Resident use of public land (for deer hunting) has steadily decreased over the past 15 years.
In 1977 bowhunters accounted for 8% of the deer kill. By 2014 it was up to 46% and out-pacing the gun season kill.
In 2014-2015....76% of successful hunters killed just one deer.
In 2004 over 10,000 Ohio deer were killed under the use of Deer Damage Control Permits. In 2014 that number was about 4,000 statewide.
If my memory on statistics is good, about 20,000 Ohio deer get killed by cars every year.
Landowners accounted for 27% of the total deer harvest for 2014-2015. Landowners here are not required to obtain a general hunting license or deer permits when hunting their own land.
We are THE crossbow state with 47,500 kills vs 34,100 for less popular vertical bows.
Deer permit sales have declined 21% since their high in 2009-2010. If the trend continues, 2016-2017 will be the 7th consecutive year for permit sales to go down here.
True antlerless permit sales decreased by 44% in one year when the state placed restrictions on their use.
Everyone has their thing.
Yeah Jaquomo, I agree, and as it should be, landowners managing their own properties, it's their land, BUT, and a big but, the DOW shouldn't allow crop kill permits unless the landowner proves he killed so many deer during legal hunting seasons and or allowed so many hunters acccess... The farmer owns the land but the state owns the deer, and if the farmer can't prove he's working with hunters, no kill permits... Maybe a program like something they have out west where public access of private properties, I think the call it "Walk in Properties" or something like that in South Dalota. Colorado has something similar, and am sure other states do too... As I said in the other thread, these kill permits they hand out (and they hand them out to farmers like candy too) devastate local deer populations... Blowing away deer with a high powered rifle at night with a light and leaving them for the buzzards is just immoral to me... Give the hunters a chance to do it right or cut off their kill permits... Also, someone was saying, deer take a lot of blame done to corn fields when in fact it's groundhogs and coon who are the main culprits... They'll climb a corn stalk until their weight knocks it over and then fiest, but since there are deer tracks around, deer take the blame and most farmers don't know the difference, as with some of these "runny nose college educated city kid who has a sheet of paper that states he is a wildlife biologist"...8^) Hell, crows will pick a newly sprouted corn plant (they're smart and know or learn there is a kernel underneath and the sprout gives them a target) even before it gets a chance to grow, don't always blame the deer...
Amen...
Zbone, here in CO in many areas the ranchers complain about too many elk on "their" winter range and demand/receive game damage payments. Those same ranchers charge the public $1500-$2000 to help them out by shooting a cow elk. Sure, they own the habitat and are "feeding" those elk in winter, but in many cases they overgraze our public land elk habitat at way less than market value.
Then they lease hunting to $$$$$$ outfitters who generally shoot only bulls, maybe allowing a few friends and family to hunt a cow, which exacerbates the bull-cow ratio problem and the overpopulation they are complaining about.
Once again, the CPW is caught in the middle, trying all sorts of solutions, but they can't change the fact that the average hunter is 55 years old and unable/unwilling to hunt public land elk the way they did in their 30s. They can sell all the extra cow tags they want, and they do, but that doesn't change the other dynamics in play.
Something we should all be thinking about, and DNRs across the country are well aware of this, is how game populations will be managed in 10 years when the average hunter is 64 if current trends continue?
Just thought that point bears repeating...
And I'm with ZBone - if you won't allow anyone outside of your immediate family onto your property to thin out the herd, then don't ask the state for extra tags so you can do it all yourself.... especially if those carcasses are getting left to rot...
As far as handing out kill permits like they are candy I don't see. When kill permits gp from 14,000 to 4,000 it seems like some one is looking after the program.
Letting kill permits to rot is wrong and should be put to good use or not issued. 25 years ago a friend and I did kill permits for several years for a large farmer and every ounce of meat was saved.
I have a cattle pasture operation and the deer damage to my electric fences is a all time repair during the rut. I asked for couple doe kill permits and was refused. This was before I put in food plots.
I have 5 hunters living on the farm but I'm the only full time hunter. And to answer the question, no outside family hunts my farm. I don't need the problems.
To make matters worse in a way my adjoining neighbor's farm is a 110 ac horse hay operation. Plus we have a lot of gullies and waste brush areas. I put in food plots 4-5 yrs ago to draw deer to my property.
In a way I sorta have a deer hunters heaven with lots of deer.
But strangers hunting my property is one big problem I don't need or want.
.
Also, the state looks at DDC permits in terms of locational need. Sometimes it's considered urgent. A guy who's orchard is getting hammered....a tree nursery getting severe damage....a produce farmer losing his vegetable crop...they aren't in a position to ride it out and hope hunters can do something during the season. They need an immediate response and sometimes it needs to be lethal. Another thing the vast majority of guys don't know is that the state doesn't give out permits on simple request. Extensive documentation is required and it often means a visit by an ODNR wildlife officer to the property. He must see and document the deer damage. It's not up to the landowner to simply SAY it is deer. If the officer determines it's not deer related....no permits. If given, permits are often limited in duration and scope. The state has gone to permits which specifically address the needs of the landowner, the type damage, and the time of year the permits can be used. Often the permits are NOT valid during open deer seasons in order to discourage cheating.
I'm in the camp of guys who thinks it's a travesty to kill a deer and waste the meat. DDC permits could require the permit holder to notify ODNR or a related agency which helps find people willing to accept the carcass for meat. It's the least we could do. ODNR clearly and strongly suggests permit holders utilize the deer meat from DDC kills. The state also requires the recovery of all antler material from bucks and it must be turned over to the local ODNR officer. Violate that one and they're going to get fined plus no more permits. One other thing: it is a clear violation of the permit regs to kill a deer and leave it lay. That carcass must be either buried or moved to a location where it is not visible or offensive as it decomposes. If anyone sees that not happening, the ODNR needs notified.
Maybe if hunters lobbied hard enough we could get the state to drop the speed limit by 20% during the rut. Would motorists agree with that for us? I'm sure it would save 4,000 deer lives.
I have found that there are three main types of corn crop damage from animals here in the upper Midwest. The first occurs at the tasseling stage when the deer will eat the tender stalk down to the point where the stalk is forming the ear. The stalk will remain standing and still form an ear but it will typically be stunted.
The second type of damage and the one that is the most visible occurs from coons knocking down the stalk to eat the ear. You will see this mostly on the headlands and along a field edge that abuts a woodlot. This is what gets the most complaints from farmers as you will hear them complain at harvest time about all of the corn that was knocked down. To them it had to be the deer. Will deer knock some corn down? Sure they knock some down but it is the coons that are doing the most damage and will do it in large areas. I have seen fields where there are multiple areas 50 to 60 feet square where there is hardly a stalk left standing. This damage occurs after the ear has formed and the kernel is still soft.
The third type of damage that I see and this is strictly done by the deer, is after the ear has matured and the kernel has hardened. The deer will eat the kernels right off the cob while it is attached to the stalk. This mostly occurs just prior to harvest time and is the least visible to most folks.
From my experience in the outdoors I have rarely if ever seen a deer knock a corn stalk down to eat the corn. They have no need to when all they have to do is walk a row and turn there head left or right and there is an ear right in their face.
About a week later,after I got wind that they were not following the rules, my son and I were heading home from a night of fishing and was approaching the road we live on when I noticed 2 sets of lights out in an alfalfa about 200 hundred yards off the road. As we drove down the road and got closer the lights went out. Thinking something was amiss I went down to the next intersection and turned around and came back by again. Once again the lights went out. I told my son I bet they have shot a deer. He looked at me and said " well if they haven't done anything wrong why are they turning their lights off. It's like they are trying to hide something."
So the next morning I went for a walk and found where they had accessed this field. Standing on my property and the neighboring property that I have leased I could clearly see where they drove the entire perimeter of a standing alfalfa field with a pick up truck (thigh high mind you) to pick up the deer they had shot. They did more damage with that truck than any number of deer could have done in a weeks worth of eating.
Thinking that someone other than those designated had shot a deer the prior night I called the report all poaching hotline to express my concerns. I was told that a conservation officer would be in touch with me shortly. Well shortly must be more than a week because after that amount of time I still had not heard from anyone. So off I went to the local state police post. I spoke with a Sgt. at the front desk and told him what had happened and that I had not been contacted by the DNR after more than a week. He immediately put me in contact with a LT. from the regional office. And this is where it gets good........well not really
I told the LT. over the phone what I had witnessed and my concerns that they were not following the rules laid out in the permits. He told me that seeing as how more than a week had passed that any evidence of wrong doing was probably gone, that he didn't have a conservation officer working my county and that one would have to be sent from a neighboring county. He suggested that I contact the farmer myself, to express my concerns that they may be taking too many deer and to see if we could come to a "neighborhood agreement" The whole time I am thinking you have got to be kidding me. As a law enforcement official he showed no concern that there may be illegal activity taking place with these permits. He spoke as if the mindset within the DNR was that these permits were a free rein to do as you please. He left it up to me to do the dirty work of confronting the farmer. Which I did.
I left the post and headed straight to the farm pissed off to no extent. Needless to say the conversation did not go well but I got my point across, told them they were being watched and that I would be videotaping and monitoring their activity and would take any new evidence to the local prosecutor. Their activity greatly diminished after that.
IMO deer do most corn damage when the stock is in the early growing stage, about a foot high when its has a high sugar content and deer will bite the whole stock off near the ground and chomp it down from the bottom up, kinda like Buggs Bunny eating a carrot...8^)
TRADSTYK - I remember when it was one deer, buck only all seasons long... Then along came very limited doe tags drawn for by lottery by county townships. That was back when the DOW actually managed deer...
. Of note: On page 2 of this link you'll notice Ohio deer permits...of all types...are down across the board. The total number of deer permits issued has been in decline since the historic highs (deer population and permit sales) in 2008 thru 2010. Ohio has no limit on permit sales, so fewer hunters are buying fewer permits. And again, only about 25% of successful hunters here manage to kill more than one deer per season.
Deer damage information on page 9....
https://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/Portals/wildlife/pdfs/publications/hunting/Pub%205304_DeerSummary_FINAL.pdf
What the Ohio Revised Code says about DDC permits: http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1501:31-15-08v1
We can bait bears, but have to stop before the hunting season starts, and also before the hunting season starts, they have a dog running season in which you can't kill the bear once it have been treed, only look at it or something stupid like that, so that if you HAD a bear patterned, by the time the dog training season is over, that pattern is gone, the bears are gone and the only time you will see one during the season is just a chance encounter.... Then the season ends and the bears come back to hibernate and have cubs, so that when they come out of hibernation, they are hungry and come out to eat all the fawns and poults.. Just frickin great..
And then there is the hunting culture where everybody shoots everything. Then when they run out of tags, they just have their kids or wife sign their tags over to them and they just keep on killing..... And if you get caught poaching, it's all good if you have a local last name. Nothing to see here, just move along, you're only trying to feed your family.... Don't get a job, just go hunt,,, and if there is a little bit of posted property, go trespass and hunt there because that poor slob that owns the land is probably working to pay the stupidly high taxes on the property, so the chances of getting caught are slim,, and besides, if you have the right last name, it's all good anyhow, we'll let you off with a warning. I drive in to work 35 miles each way through some of the biggest agriculture area in the state. I drive these roads during the time when the deer should be moving, and I have not seen ONE deer in a field since the first week of October. I hunt my 114 acres and on Ft Drum and hunted about 20 or so times here and have only seen about 8 deer all season long.
Thankfully I am in on a lease out in Ohio where there are deer...... I can't believe that I actually retired here.. If I would have known how terrible the hunting is,, and how high the taxes were going to get, and how the Communist Governor was going to outlaw guns, I never would have even considered moving here.... I must have been crazy.. Geez.
If numbers are declining in your area use common sense.
Allow the Doe's to walk.
I see no difference in the seasoned hunter who shoots a spike or small basket rack buck then complains he doesn't see any big bucks.
Deer herds will rise and decline in any given area due to harvest, decline of habitat, disease. AND yes sometime's regulations, i.e. "Kill a Doe / Earn a Buck"
When the (a) state offered 2-6 Doe Permits to hunters for harvesting how many used restraint ?
Sometimes the State DNR'S, aren't the problem.
In the old funny paper / cartoon section. Beetle Bailey, use to say, "I have met the enemy, and it us"
Just my .02